Breaking Down, Rebuilding, Unmasking and Finding a New Manual for Your Brain, with Em Rusciano

The last five years have been a revolution in the way Em Rusciano sees herself, as double-whammy diagnoses of ADHD and autism illuminated a lifetime of masking and trying to meet neurotypical standards.

But even amidst burnout and the grief for all her misunderstood prior versions, Em has gained wisdom and learning that is now seeing her rebuild and recognise herself like never before.

In this conversation, Em and Osher discuss:

• Why her performance on the Masked Singer was so ironically therapeutic 
• How her life, relationships and understanding has changed 
• What we all should understand about neurodiversity, along with tips for navigating the world with a neurodivergent mind

Hear plenty more of Em’s story in her new book Blood, Sweat and Glitter

For full Story Club stories on Youtube, copies of So What, Now What? And more from Osher, head here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:00):
I mean, it's hard to say out loud. I spent
a lot of time trying to control what other people
thought of me. I think a lot of my performative ness,
a lot of the masking, was a way to try
and control other people's opinions. And I think letting that

(00:24):
go and just showing up as myself and just being like, oh,
that fucking YOLO chips all over their lane, you make
up your mind about me has been the greatest gift
of learning. I'm neurodivergent is, um, letting go of that,
I think.

S2 (00:46):
G'day. Thanks so much for listening to the show. This
is better than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to
help make your day today better than yesterday. Every week.
Twice a week, at least since 2013. I'm glad you
made it. My name is Joshua Ginsburg. Thanks for being
a part of the show. Got a question? What do
you think it's like to realize that the way you
have been living, the ideas you have about yourself and

(01:09):
your identity, your expectations of life, the relationships you're involved in,
all of it. What's it like to realize that all
the things you think about is completely at odds with
the very way that your brain is wired to work?
For the many people who have discovered later in life
that they are neurodivergent, this is not a hypothetical. It

(01:31):
is exactly what they are faced with. And understandably, it
can be a lot not just for them, but for
the people around them. And hearing someone talk about it
can bring a lot of understanding, a lot of empathy.
So asking a person who's living with this is a
good place to start. And that's what we did with em. Rusciano.

(01:53):
Em is a writer, singer, keynote speaker, comedian, podcaster. She's
someone I met her on Australian Idol quite some time ago.
We do talk about that and she's had. The last
five years have been big for him, and she describes
this in her biography blood, Sweat and Glitter. This last

(02:13):
five years have been a time of burnout and breakdown,
but also a time where she gained an immense new
understanding of herself thanks to a dual diagnosis of ADHD
and autism. Today, we speak about how that diagnosis came about,
the emotions that come with it, the emotions from grief
to joy, how that has changed the way that M

(02:34):
lives and how she sees both herself and the world.
She and I also are. We compare notes on what
it's like to live day to day with a brain
that's a little different. We talk about dealing with the
fallout of a toxic workplace, and importantly, we look at
what it means to break free of living according to
the expectations of others. M is fantastic. She gives wonderful

(02:55):
insight into what it's like to come to Neurodivergence as
an adult, and no matter how that relates to you,
you're going to get a lot out of this conversation,
a conversation which we'll get to right after this break.

(03:15):
Thanks so much for listening to the show. Let's get
into the chat. I thoroughly enjoyed catching up with and
reflecting on many of the shared experiences that I've had
with em. Rusciano uh, she's passionate, she's a hilarious human being,
and she's just so wonderfully herself. Enjoy.

S3 (03:35):
Thank you for joining us today, my dear M, we've
been trying to do this since I started this podcast.

S1 (03:42):
For so long, for so long. But I think the
universe knew you and I needed to be cracked open
a few times before we came together.

S3 (03:49):
Let's fucking make an omelette with these brains first.

S1 (03:52):
It knew that we would rip a hole in the
space time continuum if we did it unmedicated and unverified.
Here we are.

S3 (03:59):
I'm grateful to be medicated today.

S1 (04:01):
Oh.

S3 (04:02):
Mate, caffeine is the only thing that I put in
my body now that isn't prescribed to me.

S1 (04:07):
I'm having to come off one because it was making
me depressed. So the the delicate balance that my system
to get medication right for me is my poor doctors.
But yeah, I'm coming off one because they figured out
it was making me morbidly depressed. So I'm trying another one.
Not ideal. No, it's been horrendous. Yeah, yeah, I haven't

(04:27):
lined it all up yet because I'm in hormonal hellscape
plus ADHD plus all the other things. So that's like
I have to basically eat a cows worth of protein
every day. I've got to get omega three. I've got
to have my vyvanse. I've got to make sure I'm
having my estrogen patches, my progesterone and lining that all
up is a full time job. But if I ever
actually do it, you all, you all need to just
look out. If I manage to, if I manage to

(04:49):
ever do it once, go to the gym, get enough sleep.
It's a full time job being well and I'm ADHD,
so it's really fucking boring to and I and it's
a full time job. I show up to part time
and can't get fired from. I've tried.

S3 (05:04):
Now I'm. There are some people that may not know
that you and I know each other and have known
each other for some time.

S1 (05:13):
Yes, over 20 years.

S3 (05:15):
Do you remember the first time we met? I vaguely,
vaguely recall early memories. It was season two of. Now,
let me preface this. It was season two of Australian Idol,
which is the season that I don't actually remember making.

S1 (05:34):
Me neither. That season two was wild, and I don't
remember because I got an explosive period arriving into Sydney
for the top 100 and I didn't have. I left
my wallet in Melbourne as well? It was a hot mess.
First time I'd been away from my two year old

(05:56):
at the time. She's now 24 by the way. Awesome. Yeah.
So if you look back at footage of the top
100 arriving into Sydney, you'll see me at the back
of the pack. Just crab walking down with my jumper
tied around my waist. And that was the beginning of
my Australian journey. Was a big, like, Japanese flag at
the back of my pants.

S3 (06:17):
Wow.

S1 (06:17):
And it only went really downhill from there. Um, but
I think I met you, I want to say, at
the Seymour Centre. Were you? Yeah. You guys were at
the Seymour Centre? Yeah. Where the top 100 got to
get up. And I really didn't know if I was
there because I was a good singer, because I'd never
sung before, or if I was just, you know, the
one that says, oh, my mum says I'm a good singer.

(06:38):
I didn't know where I fell in the on the
in the scheme of serious contenders. So it was fraught
and I was terrified the whole time. And um, but
I think I remember you and James at the Seymour
Centre and instantly bantering with you. And we're all very
quick and very like, I liked you both straight away.

S3 (06:59):
You you have a thing that works, uh, in those situations.
And we were able to quickly get there. My my
first real memory, clear memory of you was in the
top 12 portion. Like when we're on the live part. Mhm.
You said something which would turn out to be prophetic.

(07:19):
We were still dial up internet at the time really
for most people. And if you're too young, the internet
used to sound like uh, trying to play a recorder
with an Am radio while throwing it down the stairs
with a xylophone. That's what it sounded like to get online. And, um,
we had these internet forums which allowed people to anonymously

(07:43):
say shit about the people. And I remember handing you
the microphone, and I remember you said rule number one,
don't read the forums, don't read the forums. And I
just found that extraordinary that it's so early on in
our collective experience of being judged by public who never
had to show their faces. You knew the boundary of like, no, no, no,

(08:06):
I don't want any of that noise.

S1 (08:07):
Yeah. And it's one I've managed to stick to for
20 years, pretty much, unless people send me a lot
of people in a well-meaning way, will send me other
people's opinions of me. And yeah, I know, but I'm
lucky that I have an amazing relationship with my community
where I was able to just finally one time say, hey,

(08:28):
I'm really grateful that you're out there with your swords,
fighting the battles for me or standing up for me,
but I don't need to know someone else's opinion about me.
Please don't post it here or I just for my
own mental health. And since then they're pretty good. It's
pretty good it. I think I've found this corner of
the universe where you either know who I am because
you're in the Ambrosino community or you have no idea

(08:51):
who I am, and for me, for my rejection sensitivity
issues and my mental health. It's a really lovely, wonderful
level of fame or whatever you want to call it.

S3 (09:00):
You describe a world that we evolved to live in,
a world where I broke up with someone 15 years ago.
My phone doesn't fucking show me a photo of that
person on this day in 2000. Like, I don't care.
Now I'm seeing this person and this giant flood of
shit is hitting me. You don't think about people for

(09:21):
years for a reason, nor do we hear the opinion
of people that don't immediately matter to us. We're not
wired or built or evolved to. We're not wired to
then just read some text and then put that through
our filter of like, this is I'm going to treat
this the same as a person I respect. And now
it's devastating. It's a harpoon versus like there's just some

(09:42):
pixels on the screen. I don't give a fuck. We're
not wired for it. I love that you've got that boundary.

S1 (09:47):
But it was just life or death for me. It wasn't.
I'm not curious about other people's thoughts on me. I'm
just not like, go for it, knock yourself out. But
I'm a very direct person and I surround myself with
clever people, and I make sure they all feel very
comfortable telling me the truth. And I respect them. And
if I want to know something, I fucking ask. Otherwise,

(10:08):
your unsolicited opinions do not interest me.

S3 (10:11):
I could not agree more. I was just telling Adam
about the the glorious irony of you being on Masked Singer.

S1 (10:23):
It was life changing. It saved my life. I've written
about it in the book. It's just the greatest experience
I've ever had.

S3 (10:28):
When the head came off and I saw your face,
I was like, ah. But I will tell you this.
Him I know you enough. When I looked in your face,
I'm like, ah, there's a lot more going on there
than there was last time I saw you.

S1 (10:44):
Yeah, it'd been about 20 years, so. Yeah.

S3 (10:47):
But like I could tell, there was something in your
eye that was different.

S1 (10:52):
What do you mean? Explain?

S3 (10:55):
There was a gravity about you and an awareness about
you that I'd not seen before. A self-awareness. A self-awareness.

S1 (11:05):
Oh, yeah. I don't need to learn anything more about myself.

S3 (11:08):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm my my my cup is full. Tell
me why. Why was why was the Masked Singer something that,
you know, it came along at a time in your
life you weren't expecting the phone call? Uh, somebody else
dropped out for whatever reason. They called you. Mhm. Why
was The Masked Singer so transformative?

S1 (11:27):
For so many reasons. It came at a time where,
as a live performer, we were in, you know, multiple lockdowns.
My entire career had grown to a halt. And I
also know that I'm probably one of the few performers
that has the unique skill set that can slide in
two weeks before The Masked Singer begins. I didn't get
to pick the songs. The songs were preordained, the keys

(11:49):
were preordained, the arrangements were preordained. And for me, I
just was like, yeah, hell yeah, let's do it. The
last time I sang was on Australian Idol in, you know,
the general public in, in the arena of people who
don't choose me is what I call commercial television. And
I have always had a chip on my shoulder about
how badly I did on that show, because I'd never

(12:11):
sung in public. I'd never learned, you know, how to
arrange a song or how to pick a key that
suits me. And I look back on that time because
singing is my favorite thing that I do. It's the
thing that brings me closest to religion I think that
I'll ever get. It keeps me in the moment. It
gives me great peace, and it really has bothered me
and gnawed at my gut that I did so badly
the first time I got to sing. So I saw

(12:33):
The Masked Singer as almost my redemption. But I knew
a lot of people had a lot of preconceived ideas
about me. So the idea that I got to do
it anonymously and just in the most pure way. Because
I sang live every single week, I didn't pre-record anything.
They went with my first track. Nothing was auto tuned,
and I just like the idea of getting another go.

(12:56):
And there was no other circumstance where I could think
of that, where people didn't know for sure if it
was Marciano or not. All they had was the voice
and the giant toilet dolly that I was. So getting
to do that, and I really enjoyed the team. I
really enjoyed just the purity of just singing. I didn't
have to worry about what my face was doing, if
I had makeup on, if my outfit was right, I

(13:17):
just got to sit inside that big, stupid, caged dolly
cherub terrifying nightmare fuel costume and do the thing I
love most in the world, which is sing. And it
was glorious. And and I got to sit in that
trailer by myself. They sold it to me. Like, now
you're going to be spending a lot of time alone, and,
you know, it's going to be hard. And I'm like,

(13:39):
are you trying to. This is it was the most beautiful,
glory because I've been in lockdown with my family for like.
Fucking 25 months in Melbourne. So it was beautiful. It
was so good and it was just everything was great.
Macy gray was there. I knew Macy Gray was there
the second she opened her mouth, Anastasia was there like
it was so good. And and everybody who worked on
the show were wonderful. I don't know it really. It

(14:03):
just came at the right time and I was figuring
out I was ADHD. And so I was able to
completely unmask in a giant mask. The great irony of
that situation.

S3 (14:13):
For people who don't, uh, who are unfamiliar with the term,
what have you come to learn about, uh, masking?

S1 (14:22):
I mean, I've masked my whole life. I've masked from
the age of three. I very quickly figured out that
I am too big, too much, too hard, too loud.
I've figured that out real quick, and especially as a
little girl. Now I know I'm. I'm autistic. And as
a little girl, I started studying kids to try and

(14:43):
figure out how to move through the world in a
way that didn't, you know, bring me too much harm.
So I started creating other people's versions of me, and
it just I would meet people, quickly, assess the mask
I needed to put on for them, and then perform
it and then go home. And it would take me
3 or 4 days to recover from social situations, from school,

(15:04):
from anything that involved me performing. I would step into
my human suit each day, pull it up and press go.
And I hit 40 and lockdowns happened, perimenopause started, and
I had a complete nervous breakdown and could not mask
up anymore. So that began the great kind of unraveling

(15:25):
and clearing of all of the previous versions of me
that didn't serve me, that were, you know, betraying me
in a way. But the masking is, yeah, showing up
and trying to anticipate what that person wants from you
rather than just being really, you know, authentic in yourself.
But I didn't actually know who that was. I had

(15:45):
so many masks on for so many years. Um, so
I think a part of me and the things that
I make and the way that I make them and
how I've kind of built my business is, uh, has
allowed me to slowly walk back to the person. You know,
I think I could have become the person I want
to be, but I've also become the person I needed.

(16:06):
But the masking is something women do, especially if they're neurodivergent.
I think neurotypical women do it to to a certain
extent as well. And it's exhausting. It's really exhausting. So
inside that mask, that big toilet doll mask, I didn't
have to have my face in a certain way or,
you know, pretend I was listening or making the right
amount of eye contact, which it's always too much or

(16:28):
not enough. I never get it right.

S3 (16:30):
Yeah. There's an element of there's an element of masking
that I think is is normal and most people do it.
We all have a work face, you know. But what
what you're talking about, the masking you're talking about is
I'm not I, I actually intuitively don't understand what to
do here.

S1 (16:47):
Mhm.

S3 (16:48):
I can see that person is getting what. Something that
I would like. I will copy what they do. Mhm.
And now we all kind of do this as we
learn right. Kids learn by watching and people osmose these
behaviors and things. And so they come to learn intuitively
how to behave in different situations.

S1 (17:08):
But you're also getting messages that who you are truly
is not okay.

S3 (17:12):
Yes.

S1 (17:12):
Precisely because that's what was happening with me.

S3 (17:14):
Nothing you want is happening. Nothing you want is going
right and everything you're doing is wrong. And, Ginsburg.

S1 (17:19):
Would you stop talking?

S3 (17:21):
What's wrong with you, little one? And so you start. Okay,
I know what I need to do here. I'm going
to do my version of what that person is doing. Ah,
here I am. But now where am I?

S1 (17:30):
But it's so tiring because, yeah, every single interaction is
running through the filter. So you're not just walking into
a room and going over to your friend to talk.
I walk into a room. The music's very loud. I
can hear the plate crashing. I can hear that lady
with his voices raising. She might be getting upset, so
I better check on that in about five minutes. Okay,
I'm going to go over to that person. What was
the last time I talked to them? Oh my God,
the smell from the kitchen is coming at me. Okay.

(17:51):
Now make sure when you talk to them, you make
enough eye contact, like there's this running commentary on every
single interaction and filter that I have to put in
play that everything's just like nothing's. Which is why, you know,
I think I ended up in performing because the purest
form of me is on stage. There's no it's just
coming out. But for me, it was the constant messages
of who I actually am underneath. It all isn't right

(18:13):
and you don't have any confidence in it at all? None.
So you do. You put the mask on and. Yeah.
And it's it's exhausting. It's so tiring.

S3 (18:23):
Getting diagnosed for ADHD is, uh, getting less difficult, but
it is not, uh, not difficult. One of the things
they often ask is, do you have any report cards
left over from your kid reading yours in the book.
You could have swapped the you could have swapped the
proper nouns out. Emmy has so much potential. If only

(18:43):
she'd apply yourself. Emmy is easily distracted and distracts others.
Emmy is too talkative. Emmy is disorganized. Emmy needs to
try harder. That literally word for word. If you just
put little Andrew in there would have been my report
card for the first, you know, 17 years of my life.
And then you wrote something which I knew about, but

(19:03):
I'd love to explore a bit more because you did
mention it, that, um, the there's some research to suggest
that by the age of ten, kids with ADHD will
absorb around 20,000 more negative messages about themselves than their
neurotypical peers. What does that do? How does that set
somebody up for their life?

S1 (19:21):
Well, it instantly makes you feel unsure and shame around
who you are at your core. And I think when
you're developing your sense of self as a little kid,
and you're figuring out how you're going to fit in
the world and what you want to do if you're
told who you are as inherently broken and wrong. You
don't trust that burgeoning curiosity, and you don't trust the

(19:46):
things that you even like. You don't even know if
that's okay. I had, you know, I was a massive
fantasy nerd, and all I wanted to do was talk
about Star Wars and the Neverending story, and I wanted
to cut my hair like Bastian. And I loved The
Wizard of Oz and I, you know, and I had
this great fantasy war going on in my head. But,
you know, I very quickly realized, oh, no, that wasn't cool. And,

(20:09):
you know, it was the 90s. And no one, you know,
at 12 was talking about that stuff. So I think
the moment a little kid starts getting messages that who
they are at their core is wrong, that inhibits their
ability to become who they would have become had they
had they had the right support systems around them and
been encouraged to explore the things that make them, then

(20:32):
I think it greatly alters the course of your life.
I think it's real shit. I think it needs to
be taken more seriously. The way we treat kids who
don't fit inside the system, and it's become my life's
passion to reframe social conversations around neurodivergence and to make
the world a kind of place for neurodivergent kids. Because,
you know, neurotypical, neurotypical kids will only benefit if neurodivergent

(20:55):
kids are accommodated. There's nothing bad about noise canceling headphones
or not starting school at nine, or, you know, only
doing four days a week or having, you know, not
horrible down lights in classrooms and having beanbags and not
making them sit in chairs and letting them have run
around time when their legs feel like they're full of
electric ants. Like, there's just there's just. Yeah. I think
we treat kids who fall outside of what we deem

(21:17):
normal really badly, and I think we end up with
really angry, damaged adults as a result.

S3 (21:24):
I couldn't agree with you more. And having seen the
way that, uh, Wolfie is now nearly six. There were
kids in his daycare, and there's kids in his year,
in his kindy year who probably when I was at school,
would have been a demountable at the back of the yard,
you know, and we never would have seen him. But
now I'm grateful to say that we have more resources.

(21:46):
Nothing's perfect, but we have resources where okay, you know,
we're going to have a dance party for that person
over there. You know, Wolfie will say, oh, such and
such did this today. And I'll say, oh, really? What
was that like? Uh, yeah. She just needs a little
more time to calm down than the rest of us,
because that's what she's been. That's what he's been told
by his educators. Not like, you know.

S1 (22:07):
Naughty.

S3 (22:07):
He's naughty, or he can't stop talking. That's it. It's.
It's not framing it in a in disordered language. It's
framing it as like there's just a different, you know,
they're still cool person. They just need a little more
time to get around it, which I God damn amazing
because you mentioned rejection sensitivity. And in, in my experience, um, uh,

(22:28):
getting handed the ADHD diagnosis was like, oh, of course,
I think everyone's always upset at me because everyone was
always upset at me. And so I expect them to
be upset at me. And I hear shit. I hear
tone and a voice that's not there. And then sometimes
I then create a moment that wasn't there, but now
is there. Haha. I'm right. And what a fucking trap
to be caught in.

S1 (22:48):
Yeah. It's horrible. And the ruminating, you know, I would,
I'd walk away from interactions with people and lay in
bed at 2 a.m., replaying it and just figuring out
all the ways in which I stuffed it up or
could have done it better. And then should I send
them an email to apologize? And it's the constant stocktake
of the way I was, you know, moving through the

(23:09):
world that just it nearly ended me like, yeah. And
nothing was ever good enough. I would never just be
able to forgive myself the perfectionism. And it's, you know,
the last five years have really cracked me open. And
like I said, you know, this new book that I
have coming out and I know it's gross to bring
it up, but blood, sweat and glitter, It kind of

(23:29):
charts the last five years, but I've also made it
like a guide to like The Idiot's Guide to Neurodivergence
and Perimenopause, and I think I wrote it to help
me stocktake the last five years, because they really I
nearly didn't survive it. It was it's been brutal. It's
been absolutely brutal. And I'm 46 now, and I met

(23:51):
you when I was 24. Yeah. And yeah, all the
things we're talking about with what's happened to me at
school and then going on idol and then the breakfast
radio stuff, and they all came home to roost the
last five years with the start of the lockdowns. And then,
you know, right up to even now, I've written about
breakfast radio in, in the new book, and that time

(24:14):
was one of the most brutal times I've had professionally.

S3 (24:17):
I remember me, I remember going out to Perth to
do promo for idol and running into You. Um, uh,
I came to, I think I came to be a
guest on your show, and I had done radio for
a long time before idol, and I've since done Brekky
radio again. There is something about the the mechanical, um,

(24:41):
formatic nature of radio that I found. Oh, this is great.
I say this at the end of the song. I,
you know, I can understand the structure really well. They
understand the hooks, the teasers, the payoffs, the callbacks. I
understood all that, all that really, really well. Absolutely unprepared
to deal with the amount of personality in the room
to create a show like that. And I ended up

(25:03):
being my own worst enemy. I broke my heart that
I wasn't as good at it as I wanted to be. Um,
because I couldn't handle. I didn't know how to deal
with everything else in in the room. And it is
it is. As far as feedback goes, you'd better start
getting used to the most personal and destructive, you know,

(25:24):
critique quick because like, hey, that thing you did at
six past the hour. Terrible. We saw the numbers dip.
Never do that again. Whatever you did at seven past
the hour. Do that more. Oh, I can't remember what
it was.

S1 (25:37):
Oh, no. I got told my laugh was grating.

S3 (25:39):
Excellent.

S1 (25:40):
Imagine that. Imagine being self-conscious every time you laugh. No
breakfast radio for. Especially for women. They want you to
be outspoken and opinionated and heartfelt. And when you're that
off air, it's very inconvenient. So they want you to
be one version of you on air. And then when
you are all those things off air, they're like, hang

(26:01):
on a minute. No, no. You're difficult. You're a diva.

S3 (26:04):
Oh.

S1 (26:04):
Boy. And this is you know, this is once I
started talking to other women who'd worked in breakfast radio.
There was a pattern. Yeah. And all of us were
made to believe that we were the problem, not the
male counterparts that are on the breakfast radio. Merry go round.
Not the men who are constantly gaslight us and say
inappropriate things to us. Or fair who didn't really want

(26:25):
our opinions. He just wanted us to be one way
on air. And then the nice, quiet girl off air.
And then when I would sit in front of my
straight white male bosses who were very passionately telling me
how to be a relatable woman, I would sit there
and just say, you know, no, um, no. And that
would be maddening to them. But they wanted me to

(26:48):
be that woman on air. So again, being told this
message of who you are is wrong. Okay, here. But
it's wrong off air. You're the problem. You're the reason
we're having all these issues. It's you. Um, so I
wrote about this, this this life changing conversation I had
with a reporter who was starting to do a big

(27:09):
investigative deep dive into the underbelly of commercial radio. And
I've not given it away because they're still working on it.
But when I got a DM from this reporter, I panicked. Oh, gosh.
I'm like, oh God, it's coming back. She's a diva.
She's impossible. She's an asshole.

S3 (27:26):
It was a number of years after you'd left.

S1 (27:28):
This was last year. Yeah, yeah. So last year, I
got a DM from a reporter about radio, and she.
She said, I'm doing a deep dive into commercial radio.
Your name was one that kept coming up. Someone I
needed to talk to. And my brain, neurodivergent rejection sensitivity
instantly went to, oh, God, it's going to be about
how all the women were in sniper. Yeah, yeah. And

(27:49):
so I did something I've never done in my life.
Instead of avoiding it, I just I called this person
straight away. I called them and I spent an hour
on the phone with them, and I cried. And my
daughter Marcela was walking. She was pacing. She's like, get
off the phone, get off the phone. But I don't
know what happened. The floodgates opened and I said everything. Yeah.
And at the end of it, she said, I want

(28:10):
you to know you're the fifth woman I've spoken to
who had your job, and it wasn't you. You were
made to feel like you were the problem. You were
all gaslit. You were all treated really badly. You were
in unsafe work environments. And this story I've heard, you know,
five times now and I cannot tell you. And I

(28:32):
get teary thinking about it, the shame and the internalized
guilt and the way I've been made to feel about myself.
And I'm not saying I was an angel, and I'm
not saying I didn't behave badly. I fucking did. But
I was also, you know, with Sydney, I'd lost a baby.
I was undiagnosed ADHD, autistic, I was sleep deprived. I
was in an environment, you know, that was extremely competitive

(28:54):
and terrifying today. FM and when she told me that
it changed, it changed my life more than any therapy,
any medication. And I realized how much of breakfast radio
I'd still been holding and how much shame and how
I just thought I was a shit person because I
failed in that environment. But I should have been nowhere

(29:15):
near that environment. Osh.

S3 (29:19):
Look, there's something about what you just said, which is,
I'm pretty sure, one of the reasons you've also written
this book, and it's the reason I started this podcast
just knowing it's not just you knowing that it's not
just you instantly at least splits the problem in half,
because our brains can trick us, that it's personal at
its permanent, that it's global. This is only happening to me.
This is how it's going to be forever, and it

(29:40):
affects my entire world. The moment you hear of someone else, go.
Hang on. Wait, what? That's like word for word. Oh, shit.
Instantly it's 50% better.

S1 (29:49):
Well, you've just you've just pointed out the entire point
of my career. Yeah, basically, I was tired of feeling alone.
Everything I make has that express purpose that you just
said to have someone, maybe, who've got their headphones on
at 2 a.m., questioning all they hold dear. Maybe they
hear me say something and, you know, there's a bit
of light shining in the dark. Because I've been in

(30:10):
the dark. I understand crying in the fetal position at
2 a.m.. I get it, and I'm trying to just
help anyone who's feeling that way. everything I make, I
want people to have fun and I want them to
feel better. That's it.

S3 (30:24):
One of the early on in the book, there's this
quote that stuck out to me. This book is about
what happens after realizing you've built your entire life according
to someone else's instructions. Yeah, that line really hit me because, um,
as my doctors have handed me each diagnoses, it's almost
like they're going, oh, hang on, here's a here's a

(30:44):
missing page from the manual that you didn't get. And
I read it and go, well, this would have been
I'm glad I've got it now because from here it's okay.
And I don't know about you, but the challenge for
me is to then not only not grieve, but I'm
very careful about anger in my life, but try to
not have any resentment or negativity around missed opportunities or

(31:09):
chaos that I've caused. Because I didn't know this earlier.
I wasn't interested to know how you dealt with that.

S1 (31:15):
One of the one of the chapters is based around,
like this. Six, five. Six stages of grieving. Grief has
been the major emotion state of the past five years.
Just grieving so many different things. When I found out
about the ADHD, I felt so much grief for ten

(31:37):
year old M, who just kept getting told to try harder,
but she was bursting out of her skin, trying. Truly.
And then, you know, the autism diagnosis came. And I
was sad for 20 year old M and who went
into so many situations. Yeah. Hard open and and was
I feel like my whole life people have been deliberately

(31:57):
misunderstanding me. That's how it felt. Not that that's what
was happening, but the the emotion in me was everybody
is doing their very best to misunderstand me. And so
perimenopause too has laid me bare. Lack of estrogen. It
all came at once and I think. I think if

(32:19):
I stare too hard into the abyss of grief and
what could have been, I would never have arrived at
this destination. So any time I feel like I'm going
to be swallowed by that, what if I just remember,
you know, I look at my son Elio, who who
is here under the most bizarre set of circumstances that
if this hadn't have happened, you know, Steve Jobs, you'd

(32:39):
join the dots with hindsight. I just I'm really glad
to be where I am right now, today. And I
think if I fucked with any of that, you know,
the butterfly effect. Um, so I, I walk side by
side with the grief, but I don't carry it anymore.
And that's been the big shift for me. I don't
have it on my back like a, you know, grief backpack.

S3 (32:59):
It's it does take work. It does take work.

S1 (33:02):
But constant work.

S3 (33:03):
In that.

S1 (33:03):
Work, work.

S3 (33:04):
In that work, it frees you to be free from
the weight of it and.

S1 (33:08):
Totally.

S3 (33:08):
Go and do things as well as this, rather than
I can't do things because of this.

S1 (33:14):
No two things can be true at once. You know,
I think the internet has destroyed that notion that there
can be multiple truths in a situation.

S3 (33:24):
A singer, a singer can be off key and it
can be the greatest gig of your life. It can
both happen. All right.

S1 (33:31):
On brand. Thank you.

S3 (33:32):
No, no, no, I'm just like, I've been at gigs where,
you know, the PA is shit and the drummer's having
an off night. Doesn't matter, because the feeling in the
room is there. It's. It's okay. You can. It's when
the PA is off and the drummer's having an off night.
And it's also. They're not. They're just staring at their shoes,
not giving it like I'll go home, I don't care now.

(33:52):
I'll go. I'll pay for my own tickets again because
I'm not in the music industry anymore. So I buy
show tickets. I'll go home now. I'll just like, I'm
gonna leave. I'm gonna go. It's not worth it. Um,
you mentioned the, um, so the ADHD diagnosis, uh, that
is something that comes with two things. Um, in my case,
it was, uh, medication and strategy to use while in

(34:14):
that medication and that can that that has significantly changed
things for me. Um, but with something that you mentioned,
an autism diagnosis, there's not really a medication for that,
is there? So can you explain to me and maybe,
you know, help people understand what does that diagnosis give you?

S1 (34:32):
Well, initially it gave me a lot of internalized ableism
because I didn't accept I don't meet everybody's kind of
preconceived notion of an autistic person, you know, because generally,
the way autism has been portrayed in the public eye
is Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. Yeah. You don't see
a lot of autistic women. And then when you do,
generally they're very stereotypical autistic, whereas I'm somebody who doesn't,

(34:56):
you know, present that way. Yeah. And initially when I
found out I was autistic and I only found out
because my son was diagnosed autistic and I was in
all his sessions, which is the way a lot of
late diagnosed neurodivergent parents find out. You're sitting in your
kid's assessment and you start going, what do you mean
People don't pre-plan conversation topics and worry about eye contact and,
you know, can't handle the way chewing sounds and like,

(35:19):
have to cuddle the tags off their clothes and like,
what do you mean that's not normal? Cos I've grown
up in a house of freaks. Both my parents are neurodivergent.
All my kids are. This is normal to us. This
is a baseline. What do you mean? We're not supposed
to all sit in noise canceling headphones in the same
room on our different laptops. We're together, but we're existing
in parallel. We don't interact. What do you mean, that's
not normal? So I sat in on that and then

(35:42):
started looking into the way female, you know, afab female
autism is different to Malpresentation.

S3 (35:48):
Afab. Can you explain what that means?

S1 (35:50):
Assigned female at birth non-binary pals. So those who are
assigned female at birth but don't identify as female now?

S3 (35:56):
Got it.

S1 (35:57):
And so non-binary basically. And so um, yeah, I initially
when I was told I was autistic, my gut reaction was, no, no,
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. I don't think so.
And then I, you know, I really got into it
and into the in the book, I actually have like
a symptom list, like I have I wanted people to

(36:18):
be to be able to read it and check things off.
Because when I started getting into the assessment, there were
things in there that just sounded like they were describing
my personality. And I'm like, is no experience singular? Am
I not a special, quirky person? Am I? Am I
so typical that I'm a diagnostic list? Yeah. And it was. Yeah,
it was wild. But I also didn't feel comfortable taking

(36:40):
up space within the disability community. Right. And, you know,
that's something that I still wrestle with. And I talk
a lot about the language you use around high functioning
and low functioning and how that doesn't serve anybody in
the disability community. But I think now, you know, I'm
a few years in on the diagnosis. What it's done
is reframed everything that I had built shame around everything

(37:05):
I thought was a failing. It's reframed for me as, no,
I'm not sensitive. I'm not picky. I'm not an asshole.
I'm not blunt. I'm autistic. When I told my dad,
you know, I'm autistic. He said, no, you're not. You're Italian. Um.
And I said, I'm both. And so are you.

S3 (37:25):
You're right. Right.

S1 (37:26):
And a lot of people around me were like, well, duh,
but could you have told me? Yeah. But the the autism. Yeah.
It's been a real reeducation around stuff I built big
shame with. And I'm also OCD, and that's the way
I kind of manage, um, controlling stuff around me. Because
with autism, with ADHD, autism, I'm Audie HD. So both

(37:50):
so they are opposing forces. They are light and dark.
They are Elphaba and Glinda. They hate each other. My
my ADHD brain craves chaos and dopamine and novelty, but
my autistic brain wants to know, you know, what the
parking situation is at the restaurant and what the and
what the food is and where I'm going to be
sitting and how long into it can I leave. So
they're constantly fighting each other. My brain is in a
constant tussle. So understanding that has been massive as well.

(38:13):
But just getting the keys to the car has been
the biggest thing for me. Um, and letting go. Yeah.
Letting go of caring. I think I should. I mean,
it's hard to say out loud. I spent a lot
of time trying to control what other people thought of me.

(38:38):
I think a lot of my performative ness, a lot
of the masking was a way to try and, yeah,
control other people's opinions and and wanting to. And I
think letting that go and just showing up as myself
and just being like, oh yeah, fucking YOLO. Chips all

(38:59):
over their lane, you make up your mind about me
has been the greatest gift of learning. I'm neurodivergent is, um,
letting go of that, I think.

S3 (39:11):
Just taking a moment away from em to let you
know that the Story Club YouTube channel is now live.
If you weren't able to make it to the show,
we've got a full year of shows in the pipeline
dropping a new story every single week. Every week we're
going to put that out. The live shows return in February,
but if you want to see what story clubs are
all about and dive into some of the most funny,

(39:34):
uh cringingly. Awesome, honest, dark, tender, and beautifully authentic true
stories that you are going to hear today. You'll find
the link in the show notes. That's also where you
can get a copy of both of my books. So
what now? What? The brand new one. And back after
the break, which is exactly where we're going to be
with em. Rusciano see you in a moment. One of

(40:01):
the things, um, that I, I found is that with
the as the diagnoses, you know, show up what it
has helped me do because I only really started chasing
this stuff when I realized it was really affecting my
personal relationships, because that's where it tends to fall apart
the most. The work stuff, for the most part, is

(40:23):
okay because there's a lot more control and predictability and structure.
Even though that's in the chaos of live television there. Still,
I know my job, I know my role. I know
what other people's boundaries are. It's all delineated. A TV
set is a very structured place to exist, and we're
a self-selecting crew. Let me tell you that. There's 110
people making a show like The Bachelor. There's a lot

(40:44):
of bouncy knees, a lot of people who cannot sit
at a desk, ever. All right. The greatest cameraman, sandbox writer.
They've never had an office job. Not good indoors. Okay,
so we're a self-selecting industry. Absolutely. And so are people
who work in accountancy and engineering and such. All right.
Stereotypes exist for a reason, 100%. But you mentioned earlier,

(41:05):
you know, I can be too direct or I can
be blunt. Um, that particularly when you became aware of
the ASD diagnoses, did that give you space to go normally?
I would say this to this person. I'm aware that
sometimes that can be a bit shit, and this is
not a masking thing. It's just like adapting behavior to
to not cause chaos in a moment to at least

(41:27):
kind of maybe soften speech or, uh, kind of change
the way you communicate with people so it can the
outcomes are a little more nicer for.

S1 (41:37):
Me is a form of masking.

S3 (41:39):
Right?

S1 (41:40):
To me, like you saying that really like, challenged me
because I feel like I was doing that my whole life. Like,
if people thought I was blunt, Jesus Christ, they should
have heard the stuff I was holding back. Ha ha.

S3 (41:55):
Yeah. But then there's then there's there's there's things that
serve you and things that don't serve you. Yeah.

S1 (42:00):
You know, I did was smart enough, I guess, to
figure that shit out, But no, now I'm more. I'm
good at saying when somebody asks my opinion, I now say,
do you want my opinion or do you want support?
And then, um, I kind of preface it with that.
But also I've surrounded myself now with other neurodivergent people,

(42:23):
like Only the Strong survive. There aren't any neurotypicals really
left in my life, right? In my environment. I think
I'm a good I know I'm a good person now,
like I've worked so hard and and I know that
I'm always coming from a place of fucking big love
and big feelings. And I'm really I always keep walking

(42:44):
back to that, you know, the center of the squash court,
who I am in the middle. I know I'm a big, loving,
loyal human. That only really does mean the best. And
sometimes I do fuck that up. But I can sleep
at night now because I know who I am at
my core. But yeah, I think, you know, also, I'm
just I've mellowed with age. I don't need to have.

(43:05):
And the more I know, the less I know. And
I'm okay with that. I used to be somebody that
used to have, you know, you have to have a
strong opinion either way. And now I'm like, huh? Let
me hear both sides. I'm interested. I'm way more curious
than I used to be. I ask more questions. Yeah, I,
I'm so comfortable in not having an opinion, but talking

(43:26):
it all the way to the edge with people who
disagree with me. And yeah, I just I really enjoy
now not living in extremes where I did used to
live in that, you know, and in breakfast radio you
have to have an opinion, you have to have a,
you know, you have to be and hopefully it's opposing
to the man. You're saying.

S3 (43:42):
Oh man, look, those extremes are very stimulating places. Don't
get me wrong. Like when I'm when I'm in those places,
whether they be ones that I have found as a
workplace or ones that I have accidentally on purpose manufactured,
not realized it, um, how everything's falling apart. But it's
good because now there's no room in my head for
all the bad stuff.

S1 (44:03):
Yes.

S3 (44:04):
There was another line. It's later in the book, but
fuck me, there's. There's got me like a freakin crossbow.
I felt ripped off, like someone had handed me a
game to play, but never told me the rules, and
then acted shocked when I kept losing. Mhm. Oh my God.
You know it just that really it it really sucks

(44:26):
that and it really I think it really demonstrates how
for people who might be you're just being difficult or
why are you always confused or why do you how
can you not get this disorganized.

S1 (44:38):
Like how can you answer this email, this text message?

S3 (44:40):
Can't you just get stuff on time? Why are you
always late?

S1 (44:43):
I like watch the ADHD leave my body when someone
says just do it. Sure.

S3 (44:47):
Like I'm trying. I'm exhausting myself. Trying. Oh, yeah. I'm sprinting.
Trying to try. I just can't find the steering wheel.

S1 (44:58):
No control center. I got one of those guys at
the front of Car City. The windsocks running my command center. Fuck. Like, truly.
But if you want me to write a whole one
hour long conceptual show with lighting cues and original music
and staging and costuming, I'll fucking do it. But don't
ask me to go through my bank statement and figure
out what the business expenses are, because it won't happen. Like,

(45:19):
I've got my strengths and they're really fucking strong, but
because I was good at the hard stuff and bad
at the easy stuff, I have no compass around achievement.
Nothing I do is impressive to me because at school
I couldn't remember my fucking homework. But, you know, never mind.
You know, I'm achieving all these amazing things that normies
would find incredible to me. They're nothing because I couldn't

(45:39):
do my fucking homework when I was five. So I'm
still trying to recalibrate my achievement kind of compass. I'm
terrible at saying, well done, M I'm terrible at stopping
down and acknowledging the wins. I'm always looking to the
next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And this
is what I'm practicing with, you know, with blood, sweat
and glitter, with the book, with all the podcasts I

(46:00):
work on, you know, I'm and I tell the people
around me, they know to make sure that I stop
and acknowledge it. If it's a dinner, if it's buying
myself a pair of shoes, if it's like anything, just
being in that moment. Otherwise, what's the fucking point? What
am I doing it for? To what end? To what end?

S3 (46:21):
To what end?

S1 (46:22):
It's part of. It's also being like an eldest daughter
type A personality, daughter of an immigrant. Like, there's lots
of other things raised by boomers. There's lots of other
things in there.

S3 (46:31):
You mentioned, though, that you have you surround yourself with
neurodivergent people. But, um, occasionally you are going to need
someone who who knows what's going on. There's a person
in my life who without which the last ten years
of my, you know, they've always been played by a
few other people. Um, but currently it's excellently being played
by an incredible woman called Cassidy. She and I worked
together on, on the last, uh, we worked on a

(46:53):
season of mask together. Um, she's my executive function assistant,
and she's amazing.

S1 (46:58):
Yeah.

S3 (46:59):
Without her, like, I know the bits my brain cannot do.
I just go, Boop. You do that?

S1 (47:04):
Totally.

S3 (47:04):
Because I just fucked that up. And since that person
has been in my life. Mhm. Things are way better.
I can afford to have that person in my life.
I'm very lucky. It's a business expense for me. Um,
and I'm wondering if you have found similar things of,
like getting the bits of your brain that don't work properly.
Give them to other people that you trust. Like, can

(47:24):
you do this for me?

S1 (47:26):
I'm not great at it. Delegating may shock people. A
bit of a control freak. Um, I have several, many
now I do. My eldest daughter is incredible. Um, I
have Ben Wasley, who's been with me since forever. And
a day like, everybody that's around me has been around
a long time. I have one straight white guy who

(47:46):
runs all the tech. Zeke. He's amazing. So I do. Yes,
I do have people around me that are highly organized.
I'm I'm good at. Yeah. Filling the gaps. The things
that I'm not. And I, I love spotting people who
can do it and just going and empowering them to
be like, go. Um, and our studio, you know, we
we started 1030 11 every day. It's I've kind of

(48:10):
created this work environment that I, that I always wanted,
I think. But, um. Yeah. And also just dropping your standards.
That's been the other big thing. I've been holding myself
to neurotypical standards like this. Got to achieve this by then.
And if you haven't done this as a mother, you've failed.
Or if your kids aren't sitting at the dinner table
eating dinner with you every night talking about their day,

(48:30):
then you're a bad family. And like we all hate
sitting at the dinner table at the end of the day,
and I force my kids to sit at the dinner
table for so many fucking years. And then finally I
just said to them, I really hate sitting. And they're like, yeah,
we do too. So we all just sit and eat
whenever we want. Sometimes together, sometimes not. But I think
it was an overhaul of the standards I was holding
myself to. You know, and and just realizing they don't

(48:53):
serve me and they're not actually relevant to me. So
that's been the biggest change in adapting and making my
life easier as a neurodivergent person and buying lots of
baskets for my doom piles. Yep. Got lots of baskets.

S3 (49:06):
Doom piles?

S1 (49:07):
Yeah. Doom piles.

S3 (49:09):
Tell me what a doom pile is.

S1 (49:10):
Really? You don't know? Aren't you one.

S3 (49:13):
Of us or what I'm doing? Come on. I know
you do radio stuff. I'm doing radio stuff.

S1 (49:17):
Doom piles are a neurodivergent person. Trick themselves into thinking
they're putting something away by just kind of organizing it
into these little piles. Like. Like a drunk raccoon. Like
just gathering things in. And, um, sometimes you theme the
doom piles to really feel like you're on top of
your life. Like there will be a pile of clothes
that are clean and need to be put away. Then
there's a pile of clothes that are too clean to

(49:37):
put in the wash, but too dirty to hang up.
Then there's just your dirty pile. Then there'll be a
pile of paperwork that I'm definitely never going to get to,
but I'm going to make that pile, and then there'll
be like shoes you've got to put away, and then
there'll be like 14 bags you've packed. Then there'll be
like four lunchboxes that you haven't unpacked from last week.
Put them in a pile and then all of a
sudden your life is just these just trash heaps. And you,
Oscar the Grouch. So then I bought myself baskets, and

(50:00):
at least the baskets make me feel like, you know,
it's not directly on the floor. Um, I also now
have I bought myself a rack that and has empty
coat hangers on it. And my rule is, if it will,
it take more than two minutes? No. Then put it away.
Don't put it down. Put it away. Don't put it down.
Put it away. And, um, you know, there's little things
that I'm getting better at because as a chronically neat,

(50:24):
messy person, it's like, it's very hard. Like, I am
a very I need neatness. I need everything to look
like it's a display home. But I'm messy, so it's
just like it's a constant battle.

S3 (50:35):
The two minute rule really changed my life.

S1 (50:38):
Oh, if.

S3 (50:38):
I can, if I can complete it to the point
that it's not taking up. If it's not a spinning
beach ball in my head. If I can get it
done to the point where I go that's done within
two minutes, I stop what I'm doing and do it now.
Hundred percent. The problem happens is when that cascades and
then I'm like 17, two minute things in and I'm
still got a half written email over here.

S1 (50:56):
I know, but sometimes you got to be like, it's
good enough to be dangerous.

S3 (51:00):
Good enough.

S1 (51:00):
To be. It doesn't have to be perfect.

S3 (51:02):
So with the baskets, does that chunk the task then?
So you're like, ah, I'll do one basket now.

S1 (51:05):
Yes. So then I'll be like, I used to do
the thing where I'd pile everything on my bed, and
I wasn't allowed to get into bed until, but I'd
just get in and.

S3 (51:14):
Exactly.

S1 (51:15):
Like a garbage person I have slept on.

S3 (51:18):
Come on, you're not fooling anybody with that one. We've
all done that one.

S1 (51:22):
Mate. But no, now I'm just like, I just pick
a basket and I do it. Yeah. And, um. Yeah,
it's it's not, I don't know, it's all messy. And
I'm doing my fucking best. And I'm fighting for my
life every day. But, you know, I'm getting there. I'm
better than I was yesterday, you know?

S3 (51:40):
So fuck on brand and I like it. Um, you
wrote about this in the book, and if you don't
want to talk about it today, I'm okay if you
don't talk about it today. But sometimes it's very, uh,
trying to maintain a relationship in, you know, trying to
maintain a relationship is hard for anybody. All right. You

(52:00):
don't accidentally have a six pack. You don't accidentally have
good mental health. You don't accidentally have a great marriage.
It takes effort, effort, effort. But sometimes the kind of
things that we've been discussing in this conversation, I'm sure
there was humongous effort on everybody's front. I'm wondering, was
it your experience, and I'm wondering if this is true
for you, that sometimes it can feel like you're both

(52:20):
sprinting towards each other? Um, but you end up looking
like an episode of Run It where they just there's
two guys just bash into each other because you're trying
so hard to connect. And I'm wondering if that was
your experience or, you know, how that how that was
for you.

S1 (52:36):
For me, I'm not the person my husband married 25
years ago. You know, I was a kid. And especially
with the perimenopause stuff. I, um yeah, I no longer
wish to play the role I was cast in, in,

(52:58):
you know, the early 2000. It's not who I am.
It's not how I want to show up. I think
I betrayed myself in a lot of ways. And, um,
when people change so fundamentally within a relationship, you know,
Scott and I have been together a long time. We've
split up a couple times. He was my third boyfriend. And,

(53:21):
you know, now in this phase of life, I don't
know what the future holds for us. I don't know
if we're going to be together. I don't know at
the moment. You know, we're very much figuring out our
own shit. And I think that's something that needs to

(53:41):
be talked about. And I guess more accepted that marriages
don't have to end, but sometimes Paws needs to be
hit so everyone can work on their own shit. And
especially for me, I was, you know, I'm unable to.
I got to figure I'm just. I'm really figuring out
who this who I, who I am. At 46, which

(54:05):
sounds ridiculous, but I feel this great sense of liberation
and like, the veil is dropped and I'm allowed to
say what I want and I'm allowed to put boundaries in.
And I think I felt scared of doing that for
a long time. And the person I was no longer
serves me. And I'm now turning around, trying to walk
back to a better, healthier version of me and the
person I was showing up as was great for everyone

(54:27):
else around me. Like, she was fucking on it. And
there was great Christmases and presents and birthdays were organized
and the house was amazing and everything was done and incredible.
But she was a shell and not doing anything that
she liked. And what happens to women when, especially when
you reach your mid 40s, you look around and you're like,
what the fuck is in this for me? So I'm

(54:48):
in that phase of figuring it out. I don't know
what the future holds for my marriage. I know that
we will always be a family. Um, we've got three
incredible kids. We've always been unconventional. But I guess I
want to encourage anybody who's listening. If you're having big
growing pains within your relationship, it's okay to say to

(55:11):
the other person, I need time. Um, you don't have
to go to the divorce court. You can just take time.
And if the if the relationship ends, it's not a failing.
I don't think 25 years together is a failing. It's,
you know, maybe an evolution or a change, but we'll
always be in each other's lives. But I can't tell
you what's going to happen with Scott and I. And,

(55:33):
you know, I wrote about this in the book, and I'm.
I don't want it to be the focus of articles
or interviews. And people get obsessed with the status of relationships.
The status of my relationship is In construction, I guess.

S3 (55:47):
And I think it's important to talk about, you know,
you mentioned you met when you were young. You had
kids relatively, relatively young. I mean, Audrey was 23 when
she had G. And that was unconventional at the time.
How old were you when you had. Um.

S1 (56:00):
I was 22 when I had cello.

S3 (56:03):
Yeah. So.

S1 (56:04):
Yeah. And, you know, it was young.

S3 (56:05):
Yeah. You were already together.

S1 (56:06):
Mhm.

S3 (56:07):
But who you are before you. There's a relationship you
have before you, you know, commit to each other and
it's pants ahoy and it's amazing. And you know you're
on Daydream Island having a weekend away. And you know
it's just routine all day and night. It's amazing. And
then when a child shows up well of course it
can't be that because now we're here, all right. And
then someone's got to go back to work. And then, oh,

(56:28):
now I've got to hold a lot of this. Well,
you do a lot of that. We've got half the
income but you know double the bills. And then things
kind of maybe stabilize. Then another kid comes. Now you're in,
you're in the fifth version of your relationship within four years. Right.
So relationships do change. They have to change. They have
to adapt. We're not the same people we were a
year ago. And sometimes, as you mention, it's okay to

(56:50):
say goodbye to parts of relationships and the way the
relationships structure was. It's okay to say goodbye to that
when you phases arise. And as you mentioned, it's also
okay sometimes to go, okay, this relationship between these two people,
that's over. It's not to say that we're over, but
the way this relationship is structured is over. We're just

(57:10):
going to need time to figure out when it starts again.
If it starts again, what it looks like. And that's
a kind of because as you mentioned before, two things
can be true. You can love someone so much and
not want to be around them for a little while
while you figure stuff out so that however it looks
when you come together, is better for everybody. That's all right.

S1 (57:29):
And that's what we need to work towards. Yeah. Is
coming to coming together in a healthier way because it
was not healthy for me. It suited him. It suited
my kids. It suited my parents. It suited the people
that work for me. But I was broken down and
very unhappy, and I'm now rebuilding that. And it's inconvenient

(57:54):
to the people around you when they benefit from you
running yourself into the ground. You've built that standard. They've
leaned into it because you've allowed them to. It's not
their fault. It's what I did. It's who I presented.
It's what I made. I, I put up the house
of cards I chose. Nobody expected me. No one asked
me to do all the things I was doing. But

(58:14):
I constantly felt like I had to prove myself to
be worthy of love and affection. So I just kept
overachieving and overproducing until I physically could not do it anymore.
Like my body just went numb, my brain snapped nut
and retraining and readjusting is like growing pains. It's hard.
And I've lost friendships this year that I've had for

(58:37):
decades because I could no longer show up as that friend.
Like I realized I had really one sided friendships where
they didn't know much about my life by design because
I didn't want to talk about how shitty I was feeling.
But I was the fixer of their life, and I
was on the other end of the phone calls, and
I was like the loyal friend and knew everything about
their life. And I dropped those friendships and that they were.

(59:00):
It was painful, but I had to. Yeah. So I think, um,
I think every woman feels this way and goes through
this and sometimes, you know, we drink it away. I
certainly did for a period of time. I'm not drinking anymore,
you know, we shop it away, we gamble it away.
We we we do all the things to try and
not feel it. But I just decided to turn and

(59:22):
face it. And it's been really hard. Like, it's still
really hard. But. I think just this honesty, like. I
feel brave when I face it, like, because I can.
I can name it, I can see it. I can

(59:43):
make friends with it. I can try and understand it
rather than trying to run from it and fix it
in unhealthy ways. It's just like I've just been cracked open.
And I know that I'm strong enough to rebuild, and
I have and I am. But it doesn't take away

(01:00:04):
more than one thing true at once of how hard
it's been. It's like it was scorched earth, but that's
where the most beautiful things grow from. So. And I'm
not getting it right. And, um, most days. But I'm
very interested in getting well. And I'm really curious about,

(01:00:27):
you know, being better and being the best version of myself,
however that is, and whatever that is.

S3 (01:00:38):
Even that mindset in itself is that's immediately a relief,
because the next choice is an action step towards something
that you value, which is where that's where the the
relief comes. Um, if we resist the pain and resist that,
it just gets bigger and more destructive.

S1 (01:00:56):
My full time job was avoiding pain.

S3 (01:00:59):
Oh, man.

S1 (01:01:00):
I mean, you know.

S3 (01:01:00):
You never, mate. You can't outrun it, I don't care.
I just wrote a whole book about it. You can't
outrun it.

S1 (01:01:04):
You try and you believe that you're the one who's
going to do it. I'm going to be the one.
Like it's never going to get me, you know? But
it will. It does.

S3 (01:01:13):
Um, you, uh, you've you've obviously there's parts of elements
of who you are, the advocacy for yourself that has
allowed you to perhaps make breakthroughs that others might not
be able to. What would you say about advocating for
yourself and being curious and taking responsibility, as you've just mentioned?

(01:01:35):
I think that was really powerful that I want people
to lose the way that people were treating you. Was
a way that you had set up and that you
took responsibility for that. I think that's a very important
thing to. To understand, because then once, once we take
responsibility for things, we can go cool. Now I'm the
one that gets to change it. I don't have to
wait for somebody else. I'm in control of this. This
is cool. Uh. It's hard, hurts. It sucks. But.

S1 (01:01:57):
Yeah.

S3 (01:01:57):
Then you go. It's all right. I can. I can
make it new. Um, what would you say to people
who may have been resonating with the stuff you've been
talking about, but might feel they're not getting anywhere? Um,
when it comes to finding answers, you, you know, you
went and you famously gave an extraordinary keynote, uh, about
the challenges of trying to find some sort of diagnoses

(01:02:18):
or some sort of support with the current state of
our healthcare system, which is great, but not perfect for everybody.
What would you say to people who might find themselves
a bit up against it?

S1 (01:02:28):
I think you know a few things. I mean, you've
been there, the realization that you are worth advocating for. Like,
once I realized I was worthy of the kind of
love I give other people. That unlocked something in me
like this ferocious curiosity. And I think every time I

(01:02:50):
would hit a locked door, I would just, you know,
my brain is designed to pivot. My brain is literally
in a zombie apocalypse. You want a hyperactive ADHD at
your fingertips. Like, I will think sideways. I'm really good
at problem solving. I'm terrible at, like, lining up at
a bank. But if you drop me in the middle
of a war zone and you tell me you've got
four bucks and a and some matches and some raw meat, oh, fucking.

(01:03:11):
Let's start civilization. I'm in. So I think if you're
hitting a wall for yourself, you've just got to go
again and again. But I go sideways like I try
different avenues and different. And I think also self-diagnosis is
so valid and so legitimate. And if you think that

(01:03:34):
something applies to you, there's a very good chance it does. Now, obviously,
getting a diagnosis for a lot of mental health things
is important because it gives you access to perhaps medication
or perhaps the NDIS. But step one I certainly self
diagnosed with autism before I got the official, you know,
seal of approval. And once I self-identified, I then started

(01:03:57):
making changes in my life. I almost gave myself permission
to do that. So advocating for yourself is just tiny
little things, tiny little wins each day that you just
make tiny little changes. And like you said, focusing on
the things you control. It's like, do I need to
stop drinking? Is my relationship with alcohol not great? You

(01:04:18):
can control that. Do I need to start moving my
body more to get out of your head? Get into
your body? The greatest, greatest advice I've ever been given,
you know, do I? This is these little things that
you can take control back when you're hitting walls, that
you're not waiting for someone else to give you permission
to get better. And I think once you realize that
you don't need other people's permission. And that changed my

(01:04:40):
life for everything from my business to my mental health
to my physical health. Um, yeah. You don't need other
people to say go. You can just. You can just
do it.

S3 (01:04:51):
I got really lucky. Just, you know, when you when
you talk about that, I got really lucky. Both my
parents were doctors. And so I just saw the way
that these two people, professionals who lived their whole lives
in the medical system. I saw the phone calls they'd
made and the hustles they pulled to make sure that
one GP spoke to one specialist to, you know, line
up one scan. So I just knew that was the

(01:05:12):
way you had to do it. Yeah, right. People, you know,
when I wrote the first book, people would say, I've
been waiting six months for a thing. I'm like, fuck that.

S1 (01:05:20):
Go somewhere.

S3 (01:05:21):
Else. I would like I walked into practices going, here's
a letter from the other guy. There you go. When
can I see them?

S1 (01:05:28):
Especially women. Like, do you know women are getting turned
away from medical misogyny. Like you can go to another
GP and people always look at me like, oh shit,
you're right. Like, they have to impress you. You can
audition 15 GP's in a week if you want to.
There's no rule, there's no limit. If you're going to
a GP and you're saying this, this and this, I
think I'm perimenopausal or I think I might need a neurodivergence,

(01:05:50):
you know, exam and they're like, nah, yeah. Fucking next. Yeah.
Like empowering women especially to go somewhere else.

S3 (01:06:00):
Yeah.

S1 (01:06:01):
Yeah man.

S3 (01:06:02):
Eventually the rubber does meet the road. I think about
four separate, um, orthopaedic surgeons took a look at my
scan and went, yeah, your hips fucked. You need a
hip replacement. Before I started to believe, because I just
kept going. Going? No, no, I'll just. I'll find another guy.

S1 (01:06:17):
I know better.

S3 (01:06:17):
You know? I know I'm fine. Like, no, no, no,
you're gonna have to stop running. You should have come
to see me ten years ago. You're going to need
a new one. Like fuck. What do you know? I
did that, like, four times until eventually I went. Yeah, maybe.
Maybe maybe you. You guys might be right.

S1 (01:06:31):
Your experience as a attractive, straight white male is going
to be different because we know as women generally, to
get us to the doctor, we've got a pretty good
idea what's wrong with us and how we need the help.
But if we come up against a dude who isn't, say,
menopause informed, who looks at us at 40 and says, nah,
you couldn't be menopausal, you're too young. Um, that's, you know,

(01:06:52):
that's the hard part of them batting up again to
go see someone else when it's taken. So much for
us to get there, because women are still treated as
tiny little men in the medical industry. So, um, yeah,
I think I think it's different when dudes show up
to the doctor. I think they're believed. I think women
almost have to come in like it's a court deposition

(01:07:12):
so that we're not, you know, treated as though we're
being hysterical or anxious or it's a mental health thing
or you just need, you know, take some antidepressants or
your iron's low. I think, um, there's this whole notion that,
you know, women are worriers and they're coming to the doctor,
and it's probably for no reason but women's problems. Women's problems? Yeah.

S3 (01:07:29):
You need a Bex and a good lie down.

S1 (01:07:31):
Oh, sounds like my mum. That's so 80s, Bex. My God. Yeah.
I think if anything, I just want to empower those
people to advocate for themselves. Because it's the advocate, the
advocating I do I do it for my kids. I
do it for, you know, people like you and I
to walk through the world a bit easier. So, um,
but it starts with yourself and advocating for yourself, especially

(01:07:53):
for women. It's not something society encourages. So, um.

S3 (01:07:56):
You mentioned audition and I love I would, I would
say date, but yeah, auditions are probably because I would
also say that about psychologists. People go, oh yeah, I
went to a psychologist. And, you know, I didn't like
I was like, you don't have to stick to the one.
You know, you can go to different. I can't count
how many different ones I've been to, but I will I'll,
I'll make a phone call first. If they want me
to pay for that time, I will, because it means

(01:08:18):
I save a lot of time. Later, we'll spend like ten,
15 minutes on the phone and go, oh, yeah, you know,
we're kind of I kind of dig you. I get
your vibe, and then I'll go meet him for the first,
you know, 1 or 2 times. Like you know what? Nah, nah,
this ain't gonna do it.

S1 (01:08:31):
I wish there was a yelp for mental health people.
I'll think about that all the time.

S3 (01:08:37):
Ah, yeah, but then then then you kind of run
the risk of, like, this doctor told me I should
stop drinking, and I'm not an alcoholic. Fuck. What do
they know? And then they get in one star, like, well.

S1 (01:08:47):
Oh, but, I mean, that's can be said for anything
because it's so hard. It's such potluck picking a mental
health professional, you just don't know.

S3 (01:08:54):
Yeah, I.

S1 (01:08:54):
What's the vibe.

S3 (01:08:55):
I would, I would generally I just ask people I
ask people who do you know that's good. Or I
will say who would you recommend. But again this is advocacy.
This is you taking the lead.

S1 (01:09:09):
And often we wait too long and we're too exhausted
and it seems insurmountable.

S3 (01:09:14):
You mentioned the exhaustion and burnout. Um.

S1 (01:09:18):
Yes. I wore that as a badge of honor. That
meant I was successful. When people would say, how are you?
I'd be all pissy. It's not what they asked him.
It's not what they asked. That was my answer.

S3 (01:09:28):
Now that you have, uh, more pages of the instruction manual,
who knows how many more are to come? Uh, now
you have more pages than the instruction manual, as we've
talked about. It takes. It takes work. Does this work
leave you exhausted? Does this work leave you rewarded?

S1 (01:09:46):
A bit of a bit of b. Um, I now
no longer see rest as a weakness. I used to
think sitting still equalled lazy. So that's been a big win.
I schedule in like today's a huge day for me.
I'm doing multiple recordings and pickups and things. So tomorrow

(01:10:06):
I'm taking at home. So I'm really good at scheduling
in like the kind of refueling days. It's been a
huge period of work for me this year. Have I
buried myself in work to cover up from the steaming
pile my personal life has become? Yes. Um, but yeah,
I think scheduling in rest for me, I find my

(01:10:28):
work incredibly rewarding. But the flip side is that I
am the product. So that's also extremely exhausting, mining your
trauma for, um, financial reward. And, you know, all the
other things that come with that is, you know, it's
no joke. So I think it's equal parts rewarding and exhausting.

(01:10:51):
And if I can just keep that push pull and
just find the middle of those two, then I'm in
the sweet spot for me. Um, so I think making
sure it's not too one way or the other is,
is my job. But, um, I'm looking forward to some
projects that I am not the I'm writing a musical
at the moment. I'm working on some kids books. So yeah,

(01:11:11):
I think working on stuff that I'm not the central
product is, is probably the way forward for me eventually.

S3 (01:11:18):
And so what what does tomorrow look like now? So
today's a big, big, big day for you. Big work day.
That does involve mining the emotional, you know, seem to
get an authentic thing, which is what you know who
you are. You can't not do it, but you now
know there needs to be a repair after that. What
does repair look like for you?

S1 (01:11:39):
So I'll get up and I'll go to the gym,
and then I'll come home and I'll have a really
hot shower or a magnesium bath. And then I will
watch probably four episodes of Parks and Rec. I'll eat
some protein, then I'll take the dogs for a walk.
Then I'll kind of check over my emails. Then I'll
do some stretching. Then I'll have another snack. Um, I'll

(01:12:02):
also have dropped my six year old off at school
and done some kick to kick with him, and then
it'll be time to pick him up from school. And
then we do more kick to kick. Um, and then
we get home and we play Mario Kart on his
new switch too, because he's just got it. And it's
all we're doing because I love gaming. We have fucking
love gaming, so we'll play that for a bit, and

(01:12:22):
then we'll do his homework, and then we'll cook dinner
and then the girls and I'll sit down and watch
the show. They're making me watch called the Summer I
Turned pretty, and then I'll try and be in bed
by ten. But let's be honest, I'll doomscroll till about
midnight on TikTok.

S3 (01:12:36):
That sounds nearly excellent. That sounds like nearly the perfect day.
But there's there's there's Marge, of course. 1145 you get
to 11:45 a.m.. I am so happy that we finally
got a chance to do this, and now was the
perfect time for us to do this. And it was.
Thank you for being Dolly. And I do remember when

(01:12:58):
you were Dolly. The other thing really hardest thing about Dolly,
because Tim Chappel, who's amazing, he makes the costumes. Sometimes
you see their hands. And if I've known somebody, what
was this is another wild thing altogether. If they had
a glove and I had known them and they touched me,
my brain instantly knew who they were, even though I
couldn't see anything of them, like Danny Mills. Wendell. Like, oh,

(01:13:21):
like my brain recognized. We recognize something about them. I'll
tell you about this. But because Dolly, I didn't know
who it was. But I remember you had these little
chopsticks that you would operate her hands with. And I
was like, inside there is someone really filthy is in there, like,
fucking filthy. And I love it. And Dolly went like this, nodding.
I was like, fucking. I don't know how you managed

(01:13:42):
to do it, but a lot of personality. It was
amazing and I'm so grateful you said yes to it.
There's a lot more to this story. M um, but
I'm glad you and I spoke today. Um, thank you
for writing this book. You're a gem of a human.

S1 (01:13:55):
Thanks, honey. That means a lot coming from you. Thank you.

S3 (01:13:58):
I'm grateful you're still in my life.

S1 (01:13:59):
Always. I'm always here if you need me. You know that.

S3 (01:14:06):
That was em Rusciano. Her biography is called blood, Sweat
and Glitter. I really enjoyed that conversation. It's really something
when you talk to someone who is a trained broadcaster
and using those skills to describe life as a neurodivergent person.
It was very useful. I thought she was great. I
related to a lot of it. If you did, too. Uh,

(01:14:27):
perhaps there's some questions to ask, some steps to take.
Because if life feels harder to you than you think it,
you know, could be. Well, thankfully, there's a lot of
help out there, and that help can look like anything
from a few small changes to maybe, you know, a
sprinkling of medication to maybe an entire different approach of
how you go through life anywhere along that spectrum. Pun intended.

(01:14:48):
There is a pathway to things being easier. Uh, big
thanks to Adam Buncher for producing today's episode. Uh, jump
in the show notes to get the link to the
YouTube for Story Club. And also that's where you can
get the new book. So what now? What? Thanks for
being a part of it. I'll see you back here Monday.