September 2, 2025 • 49 mins
A collection of some of the best bits from Better Than Yesterday's dads.
You'll hear:
- Hamish Blake talk about what play is to him and why its so important
- Dave Hughes on what makes every moment more meaningful
- Ryan Holiday on how he chooses to curate his life
- Dr Billy Garvey on moving past unhealthy displays of masculinity and the secret to really connecting with your kids
Need a gift? So What, Now What?! (don't forget to leave a review for Osher to read out here)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good day, Welcome to the show. This is better than yesterday.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Useful tools and useful conversations to help your day to day.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Become better than yesterday.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Every single week since twenty thirteen. And since twenty thirteen,
let me tell you, we've had a lot of great
dads on the show today. I mean, I am a dad,
I am a stepdad, but there are other dads on
the show today. My name's Osha Ginsburg. Thanks for being
a part of it. It is Father's Day in Australia
this weekend, and in honor of Father's Day, in honor
(00:31):
of the many great dads we've had on the show,
we're going to be hearing some of the best bits from.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Four of them.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Four fathers for Father's Day. Try saying that for four
times fast. Four fathers for Father's Day, four father's, Father's stay,
four fathers.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Now speaking of Father's Day, great gifts for Father's Day.
So what now?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
What the new book from Osha Againsberg, get it right now? Yeah,
it's a great freaking book and the audiobook is are amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Cam Walker did.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The audio design at the sound designer that it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Thank you for leaving the reviews.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I love getting your reviews.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I love reading them.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Ount Pete left review on Amazon. What hit me reading
this was how simple but sharp? The question is, so
what now what? We've all had those moments where we're
stuck in the muck, and Osha shares how that one
line can shift you forward. It's not dressed up in jargon.
It feels just straight to the point. The mix of
words and illustrations makes it land even harder. Doesn't feel
like a heavy self help book, Well, thank you, Pete.
(01:25):
It isn't, and it.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Is useful, and it is all of those things. Thank
you so so much.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
While I'm plugging things of this weekend story Club, there
are some tickets left, but it's gonna I think it's
gonna be a full house, So get in if you can.
Kevin Han, Greteley Jackson, John Glover, Sashi Pereira, Nigel Marsh
and Me. Story Club Live Stories, Love on Stage, Absolutely
True Factory Theater, Mary Fuel get the link in the
show notes. The theme this week in is pants on fire. Now,
(01:52):
as far as fun things they do on Father's Day,
that's a fun thing to do on fathers They take
your dad to story club and listen.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
To the rest of the episode, which is coming up after.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
This Father's Day, the twenty twenty five edition of Father's
Day for the show, Part one of two. I guess
because next week on the podcast we have another very special.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Father's Day guest.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I'm not going to mention who it is just yet.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Follow the podcast if you want to find that out,
but it's coming by next week. This episode, we're going
to hear some pretty fantastic fatherly wisdom and advice from
Dave Hughes, the comedian, stoic expert and author Ryan Holiday,
developmental and behavioral pediatrician doctor Billy Garvey, and we shall
kick off with none other than the twenty twenty three
(02:47):
Father of the Year, mister Hamish Blake. What a fantastic
conversation here and I had. This's part of a longer chat.
You can go back and listen to the full thing,
but here he talks about how, even while doing his job,
he's thinking it of ways to brighten the love of
his family, how he thinks about creating moments and memories
for his kids and his family, and the value of play.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
There was a time in the first episode where maybe
there was an air of relief because I was like, no,
the thing I gambled on caring about yeah, because you know,
it's not like I've been to thousands of Lego conventions.
I'm not an adult lego builder, Like, I don't know
this world. But I was gambling on the fact that
if I'm in the room, I reckon, I'll care. I
reckon I'll be interested. But I don't know, but I'm
(03:33):
taking a punt.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That I will be.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
And I think there was that moment getting into the room,
you start to meet the people, you see it all
come to life. Definitely a feeling of relief, going great,
I care, I do care.
Speaker 6 (03:44):
This is great.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
I'm so relieved to find that I'm really interested in
this and I find the competition fun and I find
these people fun. And I was like, oh, few, this
is going to be a long two months of pretending.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Did it change the way that you're not just lego
but change the way you play with your kids?
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Good question? I think it. I think a little bit, yes,
a little bit no, Like I reckon, I lego. The
actual Lego level was probably a few years ahead of
where I took the job. A little bit to impress
my son because he was five at the time or four.
At the time two five, we were right. We were
into Lego. We were buying Lego, like I was still
(04:24):
sort of mostly building it, but we're doing it together,
and it was beginning to be a fun thing. And
I was like, I think he's I think this is
gonna really to impress him. And then he really didn't
care that much about the show. I was like, no,
I'll bring him to say It. Like every night I
would bring stuff home from say It, like I've made
him a little bits and pieces. And the first season
I would make I'd try every day to build something
for my wife, for Zoe. And then just like an
(04:47):
in joke or like a thing from our life was
some random thing, you know, Like one of them was,
she hates the song Bat out of Hell, So I
made a bat in a cage in hell, but chained
in the cave so the bat could never get out
of hell. Like so that was like some really weird
deep because I was like, by first few days, it's
all your standard in jokes that you have with your partner,
(05:08):
like ah, you know, like we like bees. I made
your bee. And then by day eight I was like
sort of run out of all our references here, and
then I would just make I'd be like, hey, Brickman,
can you make me a plane? And then he'd because
you know, we're about to go on holidays, and he'd
make a plane, and then I'd take it home, and
so I'd be like, this is good.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
These are this is really good. Damn it.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
I got Brickman to make that one. But I'd try
and make the things for something to be like, what
do you want me to make it? Like make a
drag and with wheels or something like okay, great, So
I'd try and do that at work and i'd try
and bring it home. But even then he was just
like kind of nonplast and I was saying him like
I'm working with lego, like every day we have millions
of pieces of lego. And then to the first time
I bought him, and was probably a month into shooting,
(05:50):
and like on the set, like you stop for lunch.
Everyone sort of like hands off the clock stops, the
contestants get to go and have lunch, which I'm sure
if people thought about they would realize we don't make
them for like twelve hours with no toilet brecks at lunch.
But that's what happens. So at lunch the room is
kind of mid build and there's Lego everywhere, but it's
it's just sort of frozen in time. And so I
took something on set at lunch time when we're walking
(06:11):
around and.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
Just did the big reveal. I'm like, what are you?
Here we go?
Speaker 5 (06:15):
This is Dad's work. Pretty fucking cool, isn't it? Like
here we go, this is the Lego show. And Something's like, yeah,
I know you told me about this, like this is
so it was like it completely just he was like, yeah,
you've been talking about this for a month.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
This is what I expected. I was like, right, that's.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
A good lesson. I should have told him I worked
at like the Umbrella factory or something and then surprised him,
although he probably would have been like, ah, I want umbrella.
So it has it wasn't that impressive until this year
this season, he's into it.
Speaker 6 (06:48):
Like now he's like he's.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Watching it on catch up. He's like, I can hear
it on any other room. He like running and be.
Speaker 6 (06:54):
Like, Dad, guess who won? Guess who won? I'm like,
I don't, I don't know who who got it. He's
like gussin David they're Tiger.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I like, no way, incredible, can see me on the
screen right, Like, you know I've heard of this already,
does it he's so he's talked about it. So in
terms of Lego, in terms of the playfulness or like
the creativity on the show, I actually have learned a lot.
I think I have learned a lot of those lessons
(07:22):
and applied them in other areas of life. And definitely, yeah,
it's a good question, because I reckon I owe Lego
a lot for you know, I'm just a big fan
of you know, like I don't think any level of
effort is too much to create a fun memory at home,
like I love. I'm just a big fan of effort,
the effort reward multiplier for making memories. I just think
it's always worth it.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Where does that come from?
Speaker 6 (07:46):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
It's a really good question. It's probably one for you know,
my therapist. But I reckon it's maybe it's it's you
look back and not saying that I didn't have an
exciting childhood. But I think it's that thing of going, oh,
it happens. So maybe it's a reaction to realizing how
fast it happens too. With kids, right, and just going
you've got no time. It's likely like I sort of
(08:06):
think the critical mistake you can make is putting it
off right just to go, oh, maybe it will do
a fun memory tomorrow, do you know what I mean?
I can just see how that would be such a
slippery slope. And then they're not five anymore, they're not
six anymore, they're not three anymore. And so I think
I just have a ferocious kind of drive to just go,
let's not miss any moments. You're like, let's not let's
(08:27):
take all our shots, even if they're dud memories, or
you know, I just don't think you can have a
dud memory. I think it's like, if you put putting
the effort in and you're open to your kid's curiosity
and you can pivot and twist and turn, you'll always
end up somewhere fun. And I get that's my favorite
part about being a dad, Like you get tons out
of it. But I think Lego has given us a
lot of that too, because that's the spirit of Lego, right,
(08:49):
So it definitely helps being surrounded by that all day,
like standing in a building where the whole ethos that
everyone believes and lives is anything's possible.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
You can make anything that happen, even.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
If you go home and that becomes that means you're
making characters out of the fruit in the fruit bowl.
I think it still comes from being surrounded by that creativity.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Or and that play has value. Plays is not a thing.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes, you know, I remember as a kids like not playtime,
boys like I remember that, but plays really important. It's
really important to work out your brain in different ways
and allow your subconscious to feed and work out and
figure things out, because it's when you're doing that stuff
the ideas for the other things show up.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
I agree in the middle, agree completely, and it's it's
sort of like and you have I'm a big fan
of just like freestyle playing right, Like in the same
way that for people who are interested in fitness, like sure,
go to the gym or whatever, but just walking around
and being active, just going from being at the beach
and swimming and playing with your friends, like that's also
important rather than just like okay, I do forty five,
(09:53):
Like it can exist in that moment, like you can
do you can do the big stuff with your kids
and be like, right, we're going to the movies or
we're going to loot a park. But it's the play
that's the real life. Like it's the playfulness that's real life.
So yeah, that and Bluey it's probably.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
I still that's what blue is about.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
It's yeah, and it's day from Custard.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
I just can't get I met him the other day, right,
shut up.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
You got to get him on, get him on him
from playing in bands in Brisbane back in the olden days.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
So at the opera house like, so I got I've
been lucky enough to be a guest dog, I'm blue
and I mean the next season right, So I think
from that, like loose Association, they were like, hey, we're
doing They've got the live shine at the moment Popper
tiers on stage, which are really good.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It's really it's Q but without us wearing Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
It's really it's.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Really beautifully done too because it allows I thought it
was going to be people in mascot outfits and who
were there actually at this like event we went to
We went and I took my little girl and we
went to like there's like a little before morning tea
and the Bingo and Bluey were there in the mascot
outfits and then they had they had to go and
I was like, all right, do they have to go
and get ready for the show. And they're like no, no, no,
(11:04):
they're not. We're not using those ones or.
Speaker 6 (11:06):
Use like puppets.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
It's like, okay, way better because there's not only so
much you can do with a giant mascot outfit.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
So the show itself is really beautiful and it's it's
written by Joe Brahman, Like it makes you cry a
little bit in it, just like every Blue episode. So
it's a really it's a really well done show. But
so with the cast was there beforehand and Dave McCormick,
like the voice of Bandit come said oh get ahe
let me say you're going. It's like as the most
(11:33):
starstrucker been for a long time, just hearing Bandits Save
my Boys, because it is him right, Like it's just
he's not really putting on a voice.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's just I do love it as a show because
it really is that just kind of play and make belief,
that beautiful sweet spot where they know it's fake, you
know it's fake, but it's still.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
But I go so deep on the writing tour.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
I just love the writing of Blues so much because
there's always a moment in an episode where it's like,
you know, Mum and Dad playing like Balanchi, they're playing
the game, and you realize, let's say, sort of two
thirds of the way in that they knew that, you know,
they're acting like their surprise, they're sort of pretending to
(12:13):
be facing the same challenges as the kids. But then
you get a little hint as to how much effort
they've put in behind the scenes to set it up.
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
On the show.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
On this podcast, as I say up the top there,
we're into practical tools.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
We're into useful things you can use.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And one that father of three, Dave Hughes is big
on a tool which he was really really big on,
which you may not expect, is meditation. Now we recorded
this during the COVID lockdown, so I hope now the
way Dave's voice sounds doesn't give you too many flashbacks
of the.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Awkward zoom calls and what we're all living with.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
But the way he talks about meditation here in this
little bit here that I'm going to play really grounds
it makes it something. It's not lofty, it's not a
thing that you do up in the cave and a
hill with a robe on. There's something quite approachable, sothing
you can do on the bus, on the train, not
while driving, but also shows how it makes each moment
as a parent and as a person far brighter. And
(13:10):
what's even wilder is that you know Dave Hughes and
the man that's about to open your mind to meditation
is the voice of Dave Hughes.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
Mate, every moment we should just be going wow.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
We should be like every moment that we're alive. We
should be like the first note cone we've ever pulled,
where we're gone, oh my god, this is amazan, this
is what what that should be all the time, but
we spend most of our time worrying about bullshit.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So when did you come to this?
Speaker 7 (13:52):
I come to it all the time and I remember
it all the time.
Speaker 8 (13:55):
Nowhere near perfect, but it just it just slowly it
occurs to me, or does it happens again. It's just
I just have these road these moments where I go,
hang on, fuck, it's amazing to be alive.
Speaker 7 (14:08):
And it's I don't.
Speaker 8 (14:09):
Know, man, but we just we just should be wowing
it the whole time, to be wowing it.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
You know, I had to go to a Buddhist retreat
in my twenties to even begin to scratch the surface
of this kind of thing like where, how did you
get exposed?
Speaker 8 (14:26):
As kind of thinking, well, you know what a Buddhist
retreat is something that I definitely similar experience. So I
got I went to a Buddhist service back in Perth
when I was living over there at the age of
twenty one. I think and sat, you know where, you
sat in a room with you know, a monk who
led the congregation, so to speak, and for half an
hour no one was allowed to speak, And I honestly thought,
(14:49):
fuck that.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
I grew up in the Catholic Church, and you know,
I've been to.
Speaker 8 (14:53):
Many church services over many years, but it was more
powerful that half an hour of not speaking, because I thought,
at the end of the half hour, no one had
spoken any bullshit. And it's that silence that we all,
we all end up going back to. That's the joy,
that's the real stuff, that that what is it. It's
(15:14):
the ore and the mystery of whatever this is, and
we can we can choose to acknowledge it and revel
in it, revel in that mystery and that great beyond.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Is it something that you you practice, is that you
have a practice every day.
Speaker 7 (15:32):
I meditated yesterday, and I meditate most days. I've had
many years of not doing that. Whenever I do, I
never regret it. It's like someone who exercises.
Speaker 8 (15:42):
You don't regret having exercise, but then you think, why
did I exercise the last month? And meditation is very
similar to that, as in it is well worth it
for any moment anyone. And people might be listening as
I say it to people, they go, I can't do it.
I say, yeah, But even trying to do it means
you are doing it because even sitting there for five
minutes with everything shut and just quietly, at least you're
(16:03):
acknowledging the fact that your brain is zing and you're
noticing those thoughts. And it's all of meditation is just
noticing the thoughts that you have. And the more you notice,
you know, hopefully the more they sort of just drift
to the background. So, yeah, meditation is a great thing
for anyone to do, and you can do it anywhere.
Meditation is just being where you are at any moment.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
You know.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
It's like it's driving driving without the radio on. I mean,
I'm on radio, so it's a terrible thing for you
to say. But if you can drive without the radio on,
say for ten minutes, and then just you're in the moment.
So anytime you can switch off all the bullshit around
you is a meditation.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Because that's the big thing.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
People have this misconception of meditation that if I meditate correctly,
my mind is quiet.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
But that's not really what it is, is it.
Speaker 8 (16:53):
No, it's just noticing what you're thinking. It's just that
it's stepping back and being the observer of that brain,
you know. And as I say again, I say to
my kids, you're producing all those thoughts. They're like a
sausage factory where you're just producing thought after thought after thought.
Speaker 7 (17:08):
Just in your mind.
Speaker 8 (17:09):
If you can step back from that and see the
production of thought, see how one thought link to another
thought links to another thought, And that is meditation.
Speaker 7 (17:16):
It's just noticing of what you're thinking.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I guess it's the popular culture is that when they
show a meditator, it's someone usually in a robe, sitting
cross legged with their eyes closed and still, and the
perception is like, well, they clearly haven't got you know, Oh,
I kind of need to pee.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Where's my shoe?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I can't remember?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Did I put this to the cat out?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Why's France so far away?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
To trogs like chocolate?
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Like?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
You know, they think that that's not what's going on,
but exactly what you're saying. That person is sitting there,
probably just being mindful of their breed, and they're probably
quite good at what they're doing. Yet it really is noticing.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I've heard it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
It's like watching back when we could see a parade
go by, or watching a river flow past, or just
watching a freeway of traffic just going oh look, red car, oh,
blue cart, another truck.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Ah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And you can either choose to stand in the middle
of the freeway or it can stand on the side
watch it all go by. And in the noticing, as
you mentioned earlier in the conversation, in the noticing, is
the power to decide.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
What you do about it. And I think that's the
real key.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 8 (18:15):
It's like those thoughts go past, and you can choose
to be on that thought raft and get taken down
the river, or you can step back from the river
and just see the thoughts go past and let them
go let them go and don't let them take you
down a dark hole, which we often do get taken down.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, there was a time in my life when I
was on a medication that wouldn't allow me to get
to that point, and I got quite downhearder that I
couldn't reach this spot of that observance. But then someone
explained to me, Oh, this is because you're on these meads.
Your brain actually can't get to that point.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Then and then as I changed meads, it got a
little easier, and in fact, on the meds on one
now it does become a whole lot easier. And I
found sometimes even just if I use the words, if
I've put it from a verbal cortex, if I just
say I'm noticing, like I'm noticing I'm feeling kind of angry. Well,
I'm noticing I'm feeling nervous, that is enough sometimes to
make me then well, now i'm observing that thought, I
(19:09):
can go Okay, Like, I still have to ride out
the adrenaline or write out the you know, the flush
of emotion in my body, but at least I can
hopefully make better choices in that moment.
Speaker 8 (19:20):
Yeah, I look being aware It's all about awareness and
being aware of the fact that your brain is it
goes off on its own, but it doesn't really you
are actually making those decisions. But if you can step
back from the thought process, you can see how the
decisions are being made by your brain and it's Yeah,
stepping away and stepping back is a very valuable thing
(19:42):
to do, absolutely, and I'm doing it more and more
in my life and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
How do you find, like we've done a lot of lockdown?
Your Melbourne's not looking great as far as another lockdown goes.
You've you know, your your wife teachers, You've got three
kids at home. How do you even find time in
the in a house of chaos and pets and animals, kids,
to find space to sit?
Speaker 7 (20:02):
Well, you know, you can always find twenty minutes. You
can absolutely, generally you can find twenty minutes, but again
you don't. You can be meditating while you do in
the dishes.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
You can be meditating while you're picking up all of
the rubbish that your kids have left on the ground,
or that you the dog in the backyard.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
It can be any moment, and.
Speaker 8 (20:19):
We should choose to treat every moment like a meditation,
and it's yeah, it's all about being aware of the
fact that you're here now, and that's it, and this
is amazing.
Speaker 7 (20:32):
Life is incredible, Every moment is incredible, and all the
noise is bullshit. It's all bullshit.
Speaker 8 (20:41):
My dad, he didn't reach any great heights in a
career at all or whatever. You know, He's like going,
he'sed to go fishing, and he would just put a
ride in the river and just sit there and just stare.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
And I had to think, how can he do that?
Speaker 9 (21:00):
Now?
Speaker 7 (21:00):
I just think that is wisdom.
Speaker 8 (21:02):
Just to be able to sit there and contemplate the
factory life.
Speaker 7 (21:07):
There's all anyone.
Speaker 6 (21:08):
Needs to do.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It's our Father's Day Special twenty twenty five. Ryan Holiday,
the brilliant Ryan Holiday, great author, public speaker, bookshop owner.
He's one of the world's foremost experts on Stoic philosophy,
well over the last thousand years or so. There's been
many before that, but he's not recently the guy. In
this part of our conversation that he and I had
(21:41):
some time ago, we talk about how the four Stoic
virtues can be applied to basically any problem you're facing
inside or outside.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Of parenting, and how.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
These four Stoic virtues have led him to become far
more deliberate about how he curates not only his time,
but also his whole life. After Confessions of a Media Manipulator,
A lot of the work I standed around stoicism. You've
mentioned it already. What was it the first drew you
towards stoicism?
Speaker 9 (22:10):
Right?
Speaker 10 (22:11):
Yeah, the order that I wrote the books in is
sort of unrepresentative, and that I was introduced to stoicism
before I did anything in marketing. I was introduced to
stoicism when I was probably eighteen or nineteen years old.
I was in college and I went to this conference
and I asked the speaker for a book recommendation, and
he turned me on to stoicism. Now, it took a
(22:32):
while for these ideas to really penetrate and sort of
become what I built my life around. But it was
precisely stoicism that I was sort of grasping towards as
I was stuck in this kind of deeply unethical, confusing,
tempting profession, and as I was trying to manage all
the inputs that were thrown at me and being successful
(22:52):
early and trying to figure out what I wanted to
do with my life. To me, stoicism is kind of
like a set of principles that you live by, and
so I feel lucky to have learned it early.
Speaker 9 (23:05):
I feel like I had a sort of.
Speaker 10 (23:06):
An intervening career before I really focused on writing about it.
But it's sort of been the philosophy I've tried to
live almost my entire adult life by.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And it seems that every day, every week, another book
comes out that aims to help Pauss deal with modern life.
Yet from reading your books, it seems that everything that
we need to know who has already been thought about fare.
Speaker 10 (23:32):
Yeah, I mean, look in Ecclesiastes, they say there's sort
of nothing new under the sun. Marcus Aurelius is not
a big fan of the Christians, but he said the
exact same thing. It's like history is the same thing
happening over and over again. It's people fighting over money,
trying to get famous, trying to get somebody to sleep
with them, trying.
Speaker 9 (23:51):
To have a nice, happy life.
Speaker 10 (23:53):
Like as long as humans have been being humans, or
as long as humans have lived in cities. Let's say,
if you don't want to go back too far. You know,
we've been struggling with the same problems. I mean, different
technological trends in different environments highlight different parts of that experience.
But you know, whether it's a country that's at war
or a country that's experiencing a crisis, or it's a
(24:15):
country that's you know, sort of become fat and lazy
and spoiled, history is more or less the same thing,
and the people are going through the same things. And
that's what's so interesting to me is like, as interested
as I am in Stoicism, and as much as I
write about it, I'm always humbled by but also kind
of intrigued to just how similar stoicism in Buddhism is. Right,
(24:39):
It's like, oh, there's not only nothing new in the
sense that the ancient world had this figured out already,
but it's like different parts of the ancient world figured
the same thing out in different ways.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And that's the thing that kind of fascinates me. Like,
we've just had a baby. We've got an old one.
She's nearly sixteen.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
We've just had a baby. He's ten weeks all this way.
Speaker 10 (25:00):
Whatever phares You're like, you have a ten week called
that craziness. It's like you could have complained to Marcus
Aurelius about that craziness and he'd be like, oh my god,
it's so hard, you know, like, like nothing about the
experience is the childbirth is fundamentally the same reason kids
is fundamentally the same, as much as things have changed.
Speaker 9 (25:21):
It's like people are people and problems are problems.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Well exactly, and that he came out knowing how to
digest food and turn it into pooh, he came out
knowing how to breastfeed.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
He came out with a walk reflex.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
You know, he'd like, we come out with the source
code embed into us.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And I wonder your thoughts on this, you know, do
you think.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
That with these different views of the world Stoics, the Buddhists,
the Christians, the tour of the Tulmud, all these places,
you know, finding similar ways to describe human behavior, do
you think they're just reverse engineering what we are inherently
born with and how were we inherently behave.
Speaker 10 (25:59):
I guess that does go to that sort of fundamental
debate about whether we're blank slates or not. But the
way I kind of think about it, and I talk
about this a little bit in the book. It's kind
of like convergent evolution where there are these sort of
species all over the planet that have evolved very similar
ways of talking or of doing very similar things. So,
like bats and birds both fly, but they don't come
(26:22):
from the same ancestor. I mean, they all share a
common ancestor at some point, but like birds and bats
are not like descended from very similar things. They fly
in totally different ways. Right, Pandas and apes both have
opposable thumbs, but they're very different. And so I kind
of think it's that way with philosophy, where it's like
different people at different places in the world, you know,
(26:44):
from different traditions, can look and feel like they're talking
fundamentally differently. But when you kind of look at like
what enlightenment is across, whether it's Christianity or Confucism or
Stoicism or Buddhism or Epicurianism or Hinduism or Islam Enlightenment
or the highest stage of any of those schools or religions,
(27:08):
it's essentially like a really calm, wise person who isn't
afraid of anything, who doesn't get riled up, who sort
of knows what really matters. Who's able to laugh at themselves,
who's able to see the big picture? You know, who
has some level of sort of moral principle that goes
(27:28):
sort of the.
Speaker 9 (27:28):
Bedrock of how they behave.
Speaker 10 (27:30):
Usually they have some sort of they have both moral
and physical courage, you know, like it's the same person, right,
and so like at the core of stoicism is these
sort of four virtues courage, wisdom, justice, and temperance.
Speaker 9 (27:46):
So like moderation, it's like very hard to find a.
Speaker 10 (27:50):
School that's like courage is bad, you know, wisdom is
not important definitely, who cares about moderation? And then like
feel free to treat other peop people badly? You know,
Like at the core of it, these are really basic,
almost self evident truths, but they get to them in
different ways, and they advise pursuing them in different ways,
(28:12):
whether it's meditation or journaling or the rational mind or
you know, the sort of non thinking, Like there's different
ways to get there, but they're fundamentally trying to teach
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
How the fuck do you do it?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Man? Because you've got kids, you've got this book business,
you do speaking gigs, you write books, you help other
people get their books up the charts. How on earth
does someone as busy as you do these How do
you find time for stillness?
Speaker 9 (28:38):
I build my life around it.
Speaker 10 (28:40):
Right like this morning, I got up early, and the
first thing I was doing was writing. It was not
touching my phone, it was not checking my email. It
was the writing that I had to do.
Speaker 9 (28:49):
For the day.
Speaker 10 (28:50):
And I had a very short to do list of
about six things that I had to accomplish. So I
did the writing. Then my son woke up. We went outside.
We took a long walk together, so we sort of
got in the right I got in the right head space,
I you know, experienced some nature.
Speaker 9 (29:06):
Then I came back.
Speaker 10 (29:07):
I did my journals, and then I went back into
my writing. And I had two things on my calendar today.
I had a talk I had to give and I
had this thing with you. So part of it is
as busy as it is. I'm also very deliberate about
what I say yes to and what I say no to,
and I try not to over commit. I try to
(29:28):
control my schedule, and I know that when I agree
to things, I'm taking time away from the thing that matters,
which is like doing the writing that I want to do.
So it's I'm very intentional. I know what I'm doing,
I know what I'm saying no to, and I also
know the bad habits that I try to avoid, you know,
whether it's watching a lot of the news or gossiping
(29:50):
about other people, or I try to be very contained
about Even though I can sort of do whatever I
want and set up my life however I want, I try.
I had to sort of be very ordered and structured
about it all because it is hard. You're not naturally productive.
You have to create systems that allow that productivity to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
So say, for example, someone's listening to this, then they're
most likely they're on a commute. They're like, that's all
well and good for you. Holiday you live in a
farm outside. You've deliberately taken yourself outside of a metropolitan city,
so you're limiting your inputs of who could drop around
for a start. Your avandith for your internet is lower,
so you can't be streaming video left and right. If
someone has got themselves into a routine, but their routine
(30:32):
just relies on being reactionary to their phone, to the
to the urgency of their kids got to go to swimming,
this one's got to go to dancing. I've got to
get dinner, and I've got to get something out of
the freezer for dinner. Letter on, I've got no fucking
time to sit down and write my thoughts down holiday.
You know, what would you say to someone is the
first thing they can start to work on to unravel
their day and try to find that stillness.
Speaker 10 (30:52):
Yeah, So first off, what I would say is like,
these aren't like accidental things that then allow me to
have stillness. Like I chose to live here in this
city in this way because I was prioritizing it. And
as much as you might think, like, oh, that's a
very privileged thing to do, well, it also cost a lot, right,
Like I gave up a lot of things to do
(31:14):
that it wasn't free. I'd make up more money and
be more plugged in and probably sell more books if
I lived in New York City or Los Angeles, right,
because I'd have access to things, but those things would
also have access to me. So it's about really deciding
what you want and how you want to live your life.
One essay I would urge everyone to read. Paul Graham
(31:34):
has an essay called Maker Versus manager, and he's like,
you got to figure out are you a maker or
you a manager?
Speaker 9 (31:41):
Like what do you do? And if you're a manager,
then yeah, your day.
Speaker 10 (31:45):
Is mostly going to be meetings and phone calls and
you know, checking in on stuff. But the reality is
a lot of people are makers, whether they think of
themselves that way or not. You know, they're a programmer,
or they're a physical trainer, or or they're a podcaster,
or they're a screenwriter, or they're a movie producer, or
you know, or they're a hedge fund trader. Right, your
(32:08):
job is to make things, to create insights, and then
to take actions based on those insights in a way
that creates value. And you're going to have trouble doing
that if you're jerked around, if you're easily distracted, if
you don't have routines and structures and systems in place
that prioritize the kind of thinking and the kind of
(32:31):
stillness that that requires. Right, And so it's really important
that you make that distinction in your life. But to
answer your question about little rules, I would say, like,
I didn't touch my phone for the first two and
a half hours that I was awake this morning. That's
not to say, oh, it's so wonderful to be me.
You were disconnected for the no I was working. But
(32:51):
what I don't do is start my day from a
reactive place. So what Donald Trump tweeted while I was
asleep for those two you know, while while I was
checked out, you know, the night and those two and
a half hours, I had no idea, but I did
know that the night before I went to bed, going, Okay,
the first thing I have to do is knock this
you know, article out. Or if I was a Hedgephonne Trader,
(33:15):
maybe it was like I got to read these ten
public filings, or I got to make this chart, or
you know, if you were a professional athlete, you're like, hey,
I got to do this this workout.
Speaker 9 (33:26):
I don't touch the phone in the morning.
Speaker 10 (33:27):
I go right into the main thing of the day,
having gotten myself in a headspace that is conducive to
doing that thing at an elite level.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You're not the first person to have talked about that
on this show. That you know, if the first thing
that you touch in the morning isn't your lover or
you know, one of your children, then something's up. I
feel like if you touch your phone before you touch
the people you live with.
Speaker 9 (33:52):
Yeah, and how is that success? Like you know what
I mean? That's that's the way I think.
Speaker 10 (33:56):
About it, Like if success is becoming a slave to
my calendar, like I'd rather not be successful, right, Like
to me, I define success primarily as autonomy, like do
I get.
Speaker 9 (34:09):
To do what I want to do the way I
want to do it? Right?
Speaker 10 (34:14):
And so this helps me decide what opportunities to say
yes to and no to, Like if you know, I
agree to do this thing, and now all of a
sudden I found that some person's bossing me around. I'm like, well,
you know, fuck this, Like this isn't what I signed
up for it, you know. Like so I kind of
think about, like how do I want my life to be?
And I sort of judge the opportunities that I see
(34:36):
along those lines.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
All Right, the lost Dad we're gonna hate from today.
It's Look, it's hard to think about a bit of
parenting chat than the one that I had with.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Doctor Billy gave.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
There's barely a minute of our conversation which wasn't filmed
with either a thoughtful or practical bit of parenting advice
back by his incredible research his xots and practice, or me.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Just trying to make dick jokes.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
You got to keep it light.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
We're making a show here and you're about to hear this.
Billy talks a lot in this whole Listen to the
whole show. It's fantastic, But in this bit here he
talks about evolving from ideas of unhealthy masculinity and the
portrayals we were all brought up with, to finding better
ways to regulate your own reactions, to effectively communicate and
try to connect with your kids.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
This is doctor Billy Garvey.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
When we have like no other voice when it comes
to talking to young man about masculinity.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
And in my case, it was vhs and magazines.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Now it's a tablet or a phone. What can happen
if if we as a parent momm did not have
time to jump in there. Right, she tried her best
and she did well, but she didn't have time to
kind of have her She wasn't she didn't know what
we were doing.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
You know, she was a work totally.
Speaker 11 (36:00):
And yeah, I actually wear kindred spirits because yeah, I
was the same. I was brought up by a single mum.
She was raising three boys and you know, same She
worked full time for Frankston City Council and then waitress
on the weekends and evenings, and then worked a lot
of weekends as well as a receptionist and you know,
just to try and stop the mortgage drowning her.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
And it was really hard.
Speaker 11 (36:20):
And you know, I have the same memories of you. I,
you know, watching all the action hero movies and being like,
that's what a man is, his muscles, and if he
has a problem, he uses physical violence to get what
he needs and get respect. Women are objects, their trophies.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
You know.
Speaker 11 (36:37):
The more women partners you have, you just grab them
and kiss them, you know, like you show them how
much of a man you are. And pornography is having
a hugely detrimental impact on what, you know, intimacy is
seen as by you know, people that are coming up now,
especially young boys through really early ages of teenage years
(36:58):
when you know, you and I, yeah, might have been
exposed to it.
Speaker 9 (37:02):
You know.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
I had an older brother who had all.
Speaker 11 (37:04):
Those magazines and it was really hard because I remember
having to you know, I probably still have some bias
in that.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
I work really hard. I was raised by.
Speaker 11 (37:14):
You know, strong feminist mother, but I witnessed a lot
of intimate partner violence against her, and so you know,
one of the biggest risk factors of adult mental illness
is developmental trauma, and one in three of it, one
in five of us, sorry, have experienced three different types
of developmental trauma, whether it's abuse, neglect, or household dysfunction,
(37:34):
parental mental illness, intimate partner violence. You know, this is
stuff that is really common through lots of households. And
then if you look and you have this awful kind
of acceleration of it because the movies are showing you
that men don't show their feelings.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
You know, they are a real man.
Speaker 11 (37:53):
If they just bury it or they release it through
anger and violence, that's to be celebrated. And that's not
just movies in our sporting culture, that's in a lot
of leadership positions. You know, hostility and aggression and I'm
the boss and I'll take what I want and you
will respect me because you'll fear me.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
But that's not true.
Speaker 11 (38:11):
That's that's false respect, and that's not someone that we
actually really value. We're just afraid of them. And I
think that you know, our ability to reflect back on
how that we will influence like that is a really
powerful thing, and to think, how can we do better
knowing that kids today are getting lots of influencers, that
people are capturing them and going, hey, come and spend
(38:31):
money with me, Come and spend time with me online.
I will make you feel good about yourself and I'll
show you that you're valued and that this future path
of power is ready for you. And it's it's a
false prophet that is hurting kids more than many other
things in our community.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
But sometimes remember in the fight scenes, Mum she worked
as a city GP for the Australian Army and she
would walk past the house. You know, she's laundry in
one hand, grocers and the other we're just sitting in
front of the TV. And she'd see people punching and go,
that's bullshit. That got to be dead after two punches
with it. Oh, And so we kind of at least
had an idea that the violence that we saw wasn't real.
(39:13):
And you know, later on, as I became a roadie,
I was like seventeen and I'm working in pubs and stuff,
and I saw what pub violence can be. Fights don't
look like John Wick now over in eight seconds, and
someone's probably never going to smile the same way again,
you know.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
And but the.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
People, if you've never been exposed to that, you might
go into a situation at a pub or something with
bravado when you're eighteen nineteen thinking I've seen how this works.
I punched him twice and then do some sort of
rad ninja kick and then everyone kisses me.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
No, you get king hit and you're dead.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 11 (39:49):
I've never in my life started a fight, but my
fragility and my masculinity is that I can't walk away
from one.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
And I started pediatrics.
Speaker 11 (39:59):
My first day ever on a pediatric ward a very
long time ago, I had two black eyes, you know,
because the night before I'd been jumped by a bunch
of guys. And I started boxing because of that, because
I was like, that's the answer, is be able to
defend myself. But I you know, it's not true. It's
like it's not with violence against violence, just as you
(40:19):
said it, it can be hugely physically traumatic but also
really emotionally and psychologically traumatic. And I still carry that
around with me. I'm like hyper sensitive to know threats
and issues like that. And now I'm raising a boy
and a girl and it's huge privilege, but it's more
important for the safety of the community.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
How I raised my son, Charlie.
Speaker 11 (40:41):
And as you said, where are the depictions of healthy
ways to deal with stress, healthy ways to show emotions.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
That we're struggling with?
Speaker 11 (40:50):
You know, how do we see men that don't use
violence but actually use understanding and sympathy and empathy and
compassion to actually make our communities healthy and stronger and safer,
like because we can do better than what we're currently doing.
Like it's it's ridiculous and we just we love it
so much, that's the problem. It's so graphic. And we
(41:11):
even did Fight Club and Beautiful Boys recently, and you know,
I remember watching that as a teenager and thinking, isn't
this guy look how powerful Brad Pitt is. Look at
it doesn't care about anything. He's just violent and he
can take a hit, you can give a hit. He
doesn't have feelings, and he just talks about that idea
of resilience being just gritting your teeth and like taking
(41:33):
what's yours. And it's it's hugely detrimental because it does
you know, you were probably able to watch it and say,
maybe because of your mum, you were able to watch
it and go, but that's not real life. So you
didn't carry that through. But a lot of people do.
They carry it through with them, you know. And I
still have that difficulty with how I deal with my
(41:53):
anger today because of the experiences through my childhood but
also the influence those cultures.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Had on me.
Speaker 11 (41:59):
And you know, I work really hard to try and
get better with that, but it takes a lot of
time and effort, but it starts with me going, this
is something that's mine to work on, and I have
to take responsibility for it.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
So because auderies are often saying to me, and she
said it around g when she was, you know, fourteen
and fifteen started going out to parties and stuff like that,
she's not you. Okay, she's not you, and she's not
going to do the things that you did, and so
it's really difficult.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
It was really difficult.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
I had to learn how to do it to kind
of remember that when you're in the moment, can you
help me understand because it's something I struggle with a
lot as well. When it's a part of being a kid,
a little kid four five six years old, hitting pushing
that is a part of figuring it out as a parent.
What are things we can do to keep our own
histories with that sort of stuff to one side and
(42:50):
understand this is a part of them figuring out space
and boundaries and things like that, Like, what's because it's
going to happen, what are the healthy ways that we
might be.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Able to do with deal with that?
Speaker 11 (43:00):
Yeah, I mean it's so good and ashure you obviously
do it naturally, even your story about this morning is
having an awareness of what's happening in our own feelings
because of what is happening in the environment around us.
And mindfulness has been misinterpreted as well. True mindfulness is
really just what's the experience I'm having. It's not what's
the reason and changing is. It's actually just being.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Aware of it.
Speaker 11 (43:21):
And when I've got a fiery little redheaded girl, like
I've got a sensitive teperament, she's got a sensitive teperament
that's set in stone. We were genetically destined for that.
I've given it to her, so I can see me
in her so much. But I have to be aware
of that and catch myself and go I've got a
risk of a trap that I'll fall into is supporting
(43:42):
her in a way that I would want to be supported.
And if I can do that first, and then I
can go in And even I said to a mum
yesterday and clinic who's like horrible, horrific trauma and she's
got this gorgeous seven year old girl who you know,
I can't go into detail because of how disturbing it
is what's happened to this family. But this mum is
(44:02):
coming down so hard on her, like every couple of minutes,
just like punitive yelling at her, don't do this, don't
do that. And I know her well enough now, So
we talked about how do you feel when you're experiencing
that and she's not listening or she's doing something you
don't wanted to, And then we talked about how you
need to connect with her and then you need to
(44:22):
actually think what would I like her to be doing instead,
and how do I help her do that?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
You know?
Speaker 11 (44:28):
And it's a really important thing because we often get
stuck on stop doing that, no, you know, and it
doesn't help, or you're okay, and things like that. Those
dismissive or punitive approaches not only they not help, but
they also risk shame, and shame is something that can
be hugely detrimental to our own mental health, but also
(44:49):
the attachment that we have in healthy relationships, because one
of the worst things we do as parents is we
withdraw love as a punishment. So we say, like, I'm
so angry at you because you hurt your brother or
you didn't listen to me. So I'm going to actually
pull support away, and I'm going to make you feel
like my love is conditional and my love will come
back when you comply. But that's actually when we most
(45:10):
importantly go towards kids and show them how unconditionally we
love them. That doesn't mean we're being permissive. That doesn't
mean we're saying do whatever you want. It's saying we'll
face this together, and I'll actually guide you with as
much support as you need to succeed in the thing
that I want you to be doing.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Instead, the kind of parenting you're describing is the kind
of parenting I'm going to say, pretty much nobody my
age ever saw. That's all right, So I understand you
when you say connect with the kid and da da da,
I'm like, and.
Speaker 6 (45:44):
What does that look like?
Speaker 9 (45:46):
All right?
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I have no like so, and I'm not alone in that.
So I'm wondering. I don't know what I'll be. I'll be.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It's three minutes left before we have got We've passed
every little fast lie last flag. We've got to get
in the car. We've got to get out of here.
We've got to get to school. And I haven't finished
my breakfast, but I'm still in my pajamas and I'm
just being just not wanting to do anything you tell me,
all right, and I'm throwing stuff go.
Speaker 11 (46:15):
So first, I'm getting really upset and annoyed, and I've
got to sit with that, and I've got to own
that I can't give that to you.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
You're a kid.
Speaker 11 (46:22):
Next, I think, Okay, do I actually have the capacity
in the space to support usher in this? And if
I do, my first priority once i'm calm, is going
in regulated and trying to connect with you.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Why are you bringing all that, dad? Why are you're
making all huffing puffing noises?
Speaker 6 (46:38):
Dad?
Speaker 11 (46:39):
Yeah, because I'm getting frustrated, But that's actually on me
because I should be supporting you more to meet you
know what we need to do this morning.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
And I can see that you really loved it.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
I don't want to go.
Speaker 11 (46:50):
I can see I don't want to go. Yeah, I
can see that. You know you're having a great time.
And what we're going to do is we're going to
come back to this, or you can bring in the
car with you. But what I actually need is you
to s o how good you are at getting in
the car really fast, or helping your brother get into
the seat, or like guiding with a direction that is
positive that the kid is a small stretch. They can
(47:11):
achieve it quickly and you can reinforce it instantly, and
that's called process praise.
Speaker 4 (47:15):
And process praise is not you're a good boy, it's
what you're doing is great.
Speaker 11 (47:20):
And process praise is actually more beneficial to intrinsic motivation
because it's not I either good or bad. It's the
stuff that I make an effort on get celebrated and
reinforces the fact that I succeed in things I make
an effort towards. And then thinking about that but also
remembering it's actually okay. If you're like I do not
have the space, I don't have the time, and I
(47:41):
can't actually regulate myself. You just need to get in
the car but you won't get better at it by
doing those. You'll get better at it by the sixty
percent of the time that you can get down on
a kid's level, like physically get down eyes at the
same level of below them and.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
Just connect with them.
Speaker 11 (47:56):
And we talk a lot as parents, especially like people
like you and I that like we like using words,
but actually a lot of it is nonverbal. A lot
of it is just being in the space with the
kid and being calm. And that's contagious because that's how
we're built. We're wired to attach. That's why mothers sacrifice
so much resources for newborn babies because attachment bonds are
(48:19):
so strong. And so if you just connect and when
you do talk, it's open language, it's deep, it's low,
and it's slow, and it's trying to understand with curiosity,
how can I support you better to succeed at the
thing I need us both.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
To That's it Father's Day twenty twenty five. I hope
it was all right for you this Sunday Father's Day.
Don't forget for the father or father person in your life.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Just call them up and.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Say thanks, say hey, if you're a chyney, bring them
along to story club links in the show notes. If
you want to get them, somebody get them. So what
now what you can get them that book? It's in
the show notes as well. Now, these bits you've just
heard are all part of much full, long conversations which
are in the back of the podcast feed.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Just scroll back and find them.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
And you know, wherever you're listening to this whatever podcast
app you're just search Billy Garvey or search Hamish Blake.
You'll find that exact episode and knock your socks off
to follow the podcast, like it, subscribe it, share it,
tell other people. As I said, there's another parent to
add to the mix, which is coming next week, fitting
in the theme of parenting and fatherhood. But I'll feel
(49:28):
you in on that all right, See on Monday.
Good day, Welcome to the show. This is better than yesterday.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Useful tools and useful conversations to help your day to day.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Become better than yesterday.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Every single week since twenty thirteen. And since twenty thirteen,
let me tell you, we've had a lot of great
dads on the show today. I mean, I am a dad,
I am a stepdad, but there are other dads on
the show today. My name's Osha Ginsburg. Thanks for being
a part of it. It is Father's Day in Australia
this weekend, and in honor of Father's Day, in honor
(00:31):
of the many great dads we've had on the show,
we're going to be hearing some of the best bits from.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Four of them.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Four fathers for Father's Day. Try saying that for four
times fast. Four fathers for Father's Day, four father's, Father's stay,
four fathers.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Now speaking of Father's Day, great gifts for Father's Day.
So what now?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
What the new book from Osha Againsberg, get it right now? Yeah,
it's a great freaking book and the audiobook is are amazing.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Cam Walker did.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
The audio design at the sound designer that it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Thank you for leaving the reviews.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I love getting your reviews.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I love reading them.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Ount Pete left review on Amazon. What hit me reading
this was how simple but sharp? The question is, so
what now what? We've all had those moments where we're
stuck in the muck, and Osha shares how that one
line can shift you forward. It's not dressed up in jargon.
It feels just straight to the point. The mix of
words and illustrations makes it land even harder. Doesn't feel
like a heavy self help book, Well, thank you, Pete.
(01:25):
It isn't, and it.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Is useful, and it is all of those things. Thank
you so so much.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
While I'm plugging things of this weekend story Club, there
are some tickets left, but it's gonna I think it's
gonna be a full house, So get in if you can.
Kevin Han, Greteley Jackson, John Glover, Sashi Pereira, Nigel Marsh
and Me. Story Club Live Stories, Love on Stage, Absolutely
True Factory Theater, Mary Fuel get the link in the
show notes. The theme this week in is pants on fire. Now,
(01:52):
as far as fun things they do on Father's Day,
that's a fun thing to do on fathers They take
your dad to story club and listen.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
To the rest of the episode, which is coming up after.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
This Father's Day, the twenty twenty five edition of Father's
Day for the show, Part one of two. I guess
because next week on the podcast we have another very special.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Father's Day guest.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
I'm not going to mention who it is just yet.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Follow the podcast if you want to find that out,
but it's coming by next week. This episode, we're going
to hear some pretty fantastic fatherly wisdom and advice from
Dave Hughes, the comedian, stoic expert and author Ryan Holiday,
developmental and behavioral pediatrician doctor Billy Garvey, and we shall
kick off with none other than the twenty twenty three
(02:47):
Father of the Year, mister Hamish Blake. What a fantastic
conversation here and I had. This's part of a longer chat.
You can go back and listen to the full thing,
but here he talks about how, even while doing his job,
he's thinking it of ways to brighten the love of
his family, how he thinks about creating moments and memories
for his kids and his family, and the value of play.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
There was a time in the first episode where maybe
there was an air of relief because I was like, no,
the thing I gambled on caring about yeah, because you know,
it's not like I've been to thousands of Lego conventions.
I'm not an adult lego builder, Like, I don't know
this world. But I was gambling on the fact that
if I'm in the room, I reckon, I'll care. I
reckon I'll be interested. But I don't know, but I'm
(03:33):
taking a punt.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That I will be.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
And I think there was that moment getting into the room,
you start to meet the people, you see it all
come to life. Definitely a feeling of relief, going great,
I care, I do care.
Speaker 6 (03:44):
This is great.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
I'm so relieved to find that I'm really interested in
this and I find the competition fun and I find
these people fun. And I was like, oh, few, this
is going to be a long two months of pretending.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Did it change the way that you're not just lego
but change the way you play with your kids?
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Good question? I think it. I think a little bit, yes,
a little bit no, Like I reckon, I lego. The
actual Lego level was probably a few years ahead of
where I took the job. A little bit to impress
my son because he was five at the time or four.
At the time two five, we were right. We were
into Lego. We were buying Lego, like I was still
(04:24):
sort of mostly building it, but we're doing it together,
and it was beginning to be a fun thing. And
I was like, I think he's I think this is
gonna really to impress him. And then he really didn't
care that much about the show. I was like, no,
I'll bring him to say It. Like every night I
would bring stuff home from say It, like I've made
him a little bits and pieces. And the first season
I would make I'd try every day to build something
for my wife, for Zoe. And then just like an
(04:47):
in joke or like a thing from our life was
some random thing, you know, Like one of them was,
she hates the song Bat out of Hell, So I
made a bat in a cage in hell, but chained
in the cave so the bat could never get out
of hell. Like so that was like some really weird
deep because I was like, by first few days, it's
all your standard in jokes that you have with your partner,
(05:08):
like ah, you know, like we like bees. I made
your bee. And then by day eight I was like
sort of run out of all our references here, and
then I would just make I'd be like, hey, Brickman,
can you make me a plane? And then he'd because
you know, we're about to go on holidays, and he'd
make a plane, and then I'd take it home, and
so I'd be like, this is good.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
These are this is really good. Damn it.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
I got Brickman to make that one. But I'd try
and make the things for something to be like, what
do you want me to make it? Like make a
drag and with wheels or something like okay, great, So
I'd try and do that at work and i'd try
and bring it home. But even then he was just
like kind of nonplast and I was saying him like
I'm working with lego, like every day we have millions
of pieces of lego. And then to the first time
I bought him, and was probably a month into shooting,
(05:50):
and like on the set, like you stop for lunch.
Everyone sort of like hands off the clock stops, the
contestants get to go and have lunch, which I'm sure
if people thought about they would realize we don't make
them for like twelve hours with no toilet brecks at lunch.
But that's what happens. So at lunch the room is
kind of mid build and there's Lego everywhere, but it's
it's just sort of frozen in time. And so I
took something on set at lunch time when we're walking
(06:11):
around and.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
Just did the big reveal. I'm like, what are you?
Here we go?
Speaker 5 (06:15):
This is Dad's work. Pretty fucking cool, isn't it? Like
here we go, this is the Lego show. And Something's like, yeah,
I know you told me about this, like this is
so it was like it completely just he was like, yeah,
you've been talking about this for a month.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
This is what I expected. I was like, right, that's.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
A good lesson. I should have told him I worked
at like the Umbrella factory or something and then surprised him,
although he probably would have been like, ah, I want umbrella.
So it has it wasn't that impressive until this year
this season, he's into it.
Speaker 6 (06:48):
Like now he's like he's.
Speaker 5 (06:49):
Watching it on catch up. He's like, I can hear
it on any other room. He like running and be.
Speaker 6 (06:54):
Like, Dad, guess who won? Guess who won? I'm like,
I don't, I don't know who who got it. He's
like gussin David they're Tiger.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I like, no way, incredible, can see me on the
screen right, Like, you know I've heard of this already,
does it he's so he's talked about it. So in
terms of Lego, in terms of the playfulness or like
the creativity on the show, I actually have learned a lot.
I think I have learned a lot of those lessons
(07:22):
and applied them in other areas of life. And definitely, yeah,
it's a good question, because I reckon I owe Lego
a lot for you know, I'm just a big fan
of you know, like I don't think any level of
effort is too much to create a fun memory at home,
like I love. I'm just a big fan of effort,
the effort reward multiplier for making memories. I just think
it's always worth it.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Where does that come from?
Speaker 6 (07:46):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
It's a really good question. It's probably one for you know,
my therapist. But I reckon it's maybe it's it's you
look back and not saying that I didn't have an
exciting childhood. But I think it's that thing of going, oh,
it happens. So maybe it's a reaction to realizing how
fast it happens too. With kids, right, and just going
you've got no time. It's likely like I sort of
(08:06):
think the critical mistake you can make is putting it
off right just to go, oh, maybe it will do
a fun memory tomorrow, do you know what I mean?
I can just see how that would be such a
slippery slope. And then they're not five anymore, they're not
six anymore, they're not three anymore. And so I think
I just have a ferocious kind of drive to just go,
let's not miss any moments. You're like, let's not let's
(08:27):
take all our shots, even if they're dud memories, or
you know, I just don't think you can have a
dud memory. I think it's like, if you put putting
the effort in and you're open to your kid's curiosity
and you can pivot and twist and turn, you'll always
end up somewhere fun. And I get that's my favorite
part about being a dad, Like you get tons out
of it. But I think Lego has given us a
lot of that too, because that's the spirit of Lego, right,
(08:49):
So it definitely helps being surrounded by that all day,
like standing in a building where the whole ethos that
everyone believes and lives is anything's possible.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
You can make anything that happen, even.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
If you go home and that becomes that means you're
making characters out of the fruit in the fruit bowl.
I think it still comes from being surrounded by that creativity.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Or and that play has value. Plays is not a thing.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yes, you know, I remember as a kids like not playtime,
boys like I remember that, but plays really important. It's
really important to work out your brain in different ways
and allow your subconscious to feed and work out and
figure things out, because it's when you're doing that stuff
the ideas for the other things show up.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
I agree in the middle, agree completely, and it's it's
sort of like and you have I'm a big fan
of just like freestyle playing right, Like in the same
way that for people who are interested in fitness, like sure,
go to the gym or whatever, but just walking around
and being active, just going from being at the beach
and swimming and playing with your friends, like that's also
important rather than just like okay, I do forty five,
(09:53):
Like it can exist in that moment, like you can
do you can do the big stuff with your kids
and be like, right, we're going to the movies or
we're going to loot a park. But it's the play
that's the real life. Like it's the playfulness that's real life.
So yeah, that and Bluey it's probably.
Speaker 6 (10:10):
I still that's what blue is about.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
It's yeah, and it's day from Custard.
Speaker 6 (10:14):
I just can't get I met him the other day, right,
shut up.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
You got to get him on, get him on him
from playing in bands in Brisbane back in the olden days.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
So at the opera house like, so I got I've
been lucky enough to be a guest dog, I'm blue
and I mean the next season right, So I think
from that, like loose Association, they were like, hey, we're
doing They've got the live shine at the moment Popper
tiers on stage, which are really good.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
It's really it's Q but without us wearing Yeah.
Speaker 6 (10:42):
It's really it's.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Really beautifully done too because it allows I thought it
was going to be people in mascot outfits and who
were there actually at this like event we went to
We went and I took my little girl and we
went to like there's like a little before morning tea
and the Bingo and Bluey were there in the mascot
outfits and then they had they had to go and
I was like, all right, do they have to go
and get ready for the show. And they're like no, no, no,
(11:04):
they're not. We're not using those ones or.
Speaker 6 (11:06):
Use like puppets.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
It's like, okay, way better because there's not only so
much you can do with a giant mascot outfit.
Speaker 6 (11:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
So the show itself is really beautiful and it's it's
written by Joe Brahman, Like it makes you cry a
little bit in it, just like every Blue episode. So
it's a really it's a really well done show. But
so with the cast was there beforehand and Dave McCormick,
like the voice of Bandit come said oh get ahe
let me say you're going. It's like as the most
(11:33):
starstrucker been for a long time, just hearing Bandits Save
my Boys, because it is him right, Like it's just
he's not really putting on a voice.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
It's just I do love it as a show because
it really is that just kind of play and make belief,
that beautiful sweet spot where they know it's fake, you
know it's fake, but it's still.
Speaker 6 (11:49):
But I go so deep on the writing tour.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
I just love the writing of Blues so much because
there's always a moment in an episode where it's like,
you know, Mum and Dad playing like Balanchi, they're playing
the game, and you realize, let's say, sort of two
thirds of the way in that they knew that, you know,
they're acting like their surprise, they're sort of pretending to
(12:13):
be facing the same challenges as the kids. But then
you get a little hint as to how much effort
they've put in behind the scenes to set it up.
Speaker 6 (12:19):
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
On the show.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
On this podcast, as I say up the top there,
we're into practical tools.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
We're into useful things you can use.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And one that father of three, Dave Hughes is big
on a tool which he was really really big on,
which you may not expect, is meditation. Now we recorded
this during the COVID lockdown, so I hope now the
way Dave's voice sounds doesn't give you too many flashbacks
of the.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Awkward zoom calls and what we're all living with.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
But the way he talks about meditation here in this
little bit here that I'm going to play really grounds
it makes it something. It's not lofty, it's not a
thing that you do up in the cave and a
hill with a robe on. There's something quite approachable, sothing
you can do on the bus, on the train, not
while driving, but also shows how it makes each moment
as a parent and as a person far brighter. And
(13:10):
what's even wilder is that you know Dave Hughes and
the man that's about to open your mind to meditation
is the voice of Dave Hughes.
Speaker 7 (13:26):
Mate, every moment we should just be going wow.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
We should be like every moment that we're alive. We
should be like the first note cone we've ever pulled,
where we're gone, oh my god, this is amazan, this
is what what that should be all the time, but
we spend most of our time worrying about bullshit.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So when did you come to this?
Speaker 7 (13:52):
I come to it all the time and I remember
it all the time.
Speaker 8 (13:55):
Nowhere near perfect, but it just it just slowly it
occurs to me, or does it happens again. It's just
I just have these road these moments where I go,
hang on, fuck, it's amazing to be alive.
Speaker 7 (14:08):
And it's I don't.
Speaker 8 (14:09):
Know, man, but we just we just should be wowing
it the whole time, to be wowing it.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
You know, I had to go to a Buddhist retreat
in my twenties to even begin to scratch the surface
of this kind of thing like where, how did you
get exposed?
Speaker 8 (14:26):
As kind of thinking, well, you know what a Buddhist
retreat is something that I definitely similar experience. So I
got I went to a Buddhist service back in Perth
when I was living over there at the age of
twenty one. I think and sat, you know where, you
sat in a room with you know, a monk who
led the congregation, so to speak, and for half an
hour no one was allowed to speak, And I honestly thought,
(14:49):
fuck that.
Speaker 7 (14:50):
I grew up in the Catholic Church, and you know,
I've been to.
Speaker 8 (14:53):
Many church services over many years, but it was more
powerful that half an hour of not speaking, because I thought,
at the end of the half hour, no one had
spoken any bullshit. And it's that silence that we all,
we all end up going back to. That's the joy,
that's the real stuff, that that what is it. It's
(15:14):
the ore and the mystery of whatever this is, and
we can we can choose to acknowledge it and revel
in it, revel in that mystery and that great beyond.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Is it something that you you practice, is that you
have a practice every day.
Speaker 7 (15:32):
I meditated yesterday, and I meditate most days. I've had
many years of not doing that. Whenever I do, I
never regret it. It's like someone who exercises.
Speaker 8 (15:42):
You don't regret having exercise, but then you think, why
did I exercise the last month? And meditation is very
similar to that, as in it is well worth it
for any moment anyone. And people might be listening as
I say it to people, they go, I can't do it.
I say, yeah, But even trying to do it means
you are doing it because even sitting there for five
minutes with everything shut and just quietly, at least you're
(16:03):
acknowledging the fact that your brain is zing and you're
noticing those thoughts. And it's all of meditation is just
noticing the thoughts that you have. And the more you notice,
you know, hopefully the more they sort of just drift
to the background. So, yeah, meditation is a great thing
for anyone to do, and you can do it anywhere.
Meditation is just being where you are at any moment.
Speaker 7 (16:25):
You know.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
It's like it's driving driving without the radio on. I mean,
I'm on radio, so it's a terrible thing for you
to say. But if you can drive without the radio on,
say for ten minutes, and then just you're in the moment.
So anytime you can switch off all the bullshit around
you is a meditation.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Because that's the big thing.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
People have this misconception of meditation that if I meditate correctly,
my mind is quiet.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
But that's not really what it is, is it.
Speaker 8 (16:53):
No, it's just noticing what you're thinking. It's just that
it's stepping back and being the observer of that brain,
you know. And as I say again, I say to
my kids, you're producing all those thoughts. They're like a
sausage factory where you're just producing thought after thought after thought.
Speaker 7 (17:08):
Just in your mind.
Speaker 8 (17:09):
If you can step back from that and see the
production of thought, see how one thought link to another
thought links to another thought, And that is meditation.
Speaker 7 (17:16):
It's just noticing of what you're thinking.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
I guess it's the popular culture is that when they
show a meditator, it's someone usually in a robe, sitting
cross legged with their eyes closed and still, and the
perception is like, well, they clearly haven't got you know, Oh,
I kind of need to pee.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Where's my shoe?
Speaker 3 (17:32):
I can't remember?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Did I put this to the cat out?
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Why's France so far away?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
To trogs like chocolate?
Speaker 6 (17:36):
Like?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
You know, they think that that's not what's going on,
but exactly what you're saying. That person is sitting there,
probably just being mindful of their breed, and they're probably
quite good at what they're doing. Yet it really is noticing.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I've heard it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
It's like watching back when we could see a parade
go by, or watching a river flow past, or just
watching a freeway of traffic just going oh look, red car, oh,
blue cart, another truck.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Ah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
And you can either choose to stand in the middle
of the freeway or it can stand on the side
watch it all go by. And in the noticing, as
you mentioned earlier in the conversation, in the noticing, is
the power to decide.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
What you do about it. And I think that's the
real key.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 8 (18:15):
It's like those thoughts go past, and you can choose
to be on that thought raft and get taken down
the river, or you can step back from the river
and just see the thoughts go past and let them
go let them go and don't let them take you
down a dark hole, which we often do get taken down.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, there was a time in my life when I
was on a medication that wouldn't allow me to get
to that point, and I got quite downhearder that I
couldn't reach this spot of that observance. But then someone
explained to me, Oh, this is because you're on these meads.
Your brain actually can't get to that point.
Speaker 6 (18:48):
Oh okay.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Then and then as I changed meads, it got a
little easier, and in fact, on the meds on one
now it does become a whole lot easier. And I
found sometimes even just if I use the words, if
I've put it from a verbal cortex, if I just
say I'm noticing, like I'm noticing I'm feeling kind of angry. Well,
I'm noticing I'm feeling nervous, that is enough sometimes to
make me then well, now i'm observing that thought, I
(19:09):
can go Okay, Like, I still have to ride out
the adrenaline or write out the you know, the flush
of emotion in my body, but at least I can
hopefully make better choices in that moment.
Speaker 8 (19:20):
Yeah, I look being aware It's all about awareness and
being aware of the fact that your brain is it
goes off on its own, but it doesn't really you
are actually making those decisions. But if you can step
back from the thought process, you can see how the
decisions are being made by your brain and it's Yeah,
stepping away and stepping back is a very valuable thing
(19:42):
to do, absolutely, and I'm doing it more and more
in my life and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
How do you find, like we've done a lot of lockdown?
Your Melbourne's not looking great as far as another lockdown goes.
You've you know, your your wife teachers, You've got three
kids at home. How do you even find time in
the in a house of chaos and pets and animals, kids,
to find space to sit?
Speaker 7 (20:02):
Well, you know, you can always find twenty minutes. You
can absolutely, generally you can find twenty minutes, but again
you don't. You can be meditating while you do in
the dishes.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
You can be meditating while you're picking up all of
the rubbish that your kids have left on the ground,
or that you the dog in the backyard.
Speaker 7 (20:17):
It can be any moment, and.
Speaker 8 (20:19):
We should choose to treat every moment like a meditation,
and it's yeah, it's all about being aware of the
fact that you're here now, and that's it, and this
is amazing.
Speaker 7 (20:32):
Life is incredible, Every moment is incredible, and all the
noise is bullshit. It's all bullshit.
Speaker 8 (20:41):
My dad, he didn't reach any great heights in a
career at all or whatever. You know, He's like going,
he'sed to go fishing, and he would just put a
ride in the river and just sit there and just stare.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
And I had to think, how can he do that?
Speaker 9 (21:00):
Now?
Speaker 7 (21:00):
I just think that is wisdom.
Speaker 8 (21:02):
Just to be able to sit there and contemplate the
factory life.
Speaker 7 (21:07):
There's all anyone.
Speaker 6 (21:08):
Needs to do.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
It's our Father's Day Special twenty twenty five. Ryan Holiday,
the brilliant Ryan Holiday, great author, public speaker, bookshop owner.
He's one of the world's foremost experts on Stoic philosophy,
well over the last thousand years or so. There's been
many before that, but he's not recently the guy. In
this part of our conversation that he and I had
(21:41):
some time ago, we talk about how the four Stoic
virtues can be applied to basically any problem you're facing
inside or outside.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Of parenting, and how.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
These four Stoic virtues have led him to become far
more deliberate about how he curates not only his time,
but also his whole life. After Confessions of a Media Manipulator,
A lot of the work I standed around stoicism. You've
mentioned it already. What was it the first drew you
towards stoicism?
Speaker 9 (22:10):
Right?
Speaker 10 (22:11):
Yeah, the order that I wrote the books in is
sort of unrepresentative, and that I was introduced to stoicism
before I did anything in marketing. I was introduced to
stoicism when I was probably eighteen or nineteen years old.
I was in college and I went to this conference
and I asked the speaker for a book recommendation, and
he turned me on to stoicism. Now, it took a
(22:32):
while for these ideas to really penetrate and sort of
become what I built my life around. But it was
precisely stoicism that I was sort of grasping towards as
I was stuck in this kind of deeply unethical, confusing,
tempting profession, and as I was trying to manage all
the inputs that were thrown at me and being successful
(22:52):
early and trying to figure out what I wanted to
do with my life. To me, stoicism is kind of
like a set of principles that you live by, and
so I feel lucky to have learned it early.
Speaker 9 (23:05):
I feel like I had a sort of.
Speaker 10 (23:06):
An intervening career before I really focused on writing about it.
But it's sort of been the philosophy I've tried to
live almost my entire adult life by.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And it seems that every day, every week, another book
comes out that aims to help Pauss deal with modern life.
Yet from reading your books, it seems that everything that
we need to know who has already been thought about fare.
Speaker 10 (23:32):
Yeah, I mean, look in Ecclesiastes, they say there's sort
of nothing new under the sun. Marcus Aurelius is not
a big fan of the Christians, but he said the
exact same thing. It's like history is the same thing
happening over and over again. It's people fighting over money,
trying to get famous, trying to get somebody to sleep
with them, trying.
Speaker 9 (23:51):
To have a nice, happy life.
Speaker 10 (23:53):
Like as long as humans have been being humans, or
as long as humans have lived in cities. Let's say,
if you don't want to go back too far. You know,
we've been struggling with the same problems. I mean, different
technological trends in different environments highlight different parts of that experience.
But you know, whether it's a country that's at war
or a country that's experiencing a crisis, or it's a
(24:15):
country that's you know, sort of become fat and lazy
and spoiled, history is more or less the same thing,
and the people are going through the same things. And
that's what's so interesting to me is like, as interested
as I am in Stoicism, and as much as I
write about it, I'm always humbled by but also kind
of intrigued to just how similar stoicism in Buddhism is. Right,
(24:39):
It's like, oh, there's not only nothing new in the
sense that the ancient world had this figured out already,
but it's like different parts of the ancient world figured
the same thing out in different ways.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
And that's the thing that kind of fascinates me. Like,
we've just had a baby. We've got an old one.
She's nearly sixteen.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
We've just had a baby. He's ten weeks all this way.
Speaker 10 (25:00):
Whatever phares You're like, you have a ten week called
that craziness. It's like you could have complained to Marcus
Aurelius about that craziness and he'd be like, oh my god,
it's so hard, you know, like, like nothing about the
experience is the childbirth is fundamentally the same reason kids
is fundamentally the same, as much as things have changed.
Speaker 9 (25:21):
It's like people are people and problems are problems.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Well exactly, and that he came out knowing how to
digest food and turn it into pooh, he came out
knowing how to breastfeed.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
He came out with a walk reflex.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
You know, he'd like, we come out with the source
code embed into us.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And I wonder your thoughts on this, you know, do
you think.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
That with these different views of the world Stoics, the Buddhists,
the Christians, the tour of the Tulmud, all these places,
you know, finding similar ways to describe human behavior, do
you think they're just reverse engineering what we are inherently
born with and how were we inherently behave.
Speaker 10 (25:59):
I guess that does go to that sort of fundamental
debate about whether we're blank slates or not. But the
way I kind of think about it, and I talk
about this a little bit in the book. It's kind
of like convergent evolution where there are these sort of
species all over the planet that have evolved very similar
ways of talking or of doing very similar things. So,
like bats and birds both fly, but they don't come
(26:22):
from the same ancestor. I mean, they all share a
common ancestor at some point, but like birds and bats
are not like descended from very similar things. They fly
in totally different ways. Right, Pandas and apes both have
opposable thumbs, but they're very different. And so I kind
of think it's that way with philosophy, where it's like
different people at different places in the world, you know,
(26:44):
from different traditions, can look and feel like they're talking
fundamentally differently. But when you kind of look at like
what enlightenment is across, whether it's Christianity or Confucism or
Stoicism or Buddhism or Epicurianism or Hinduism or Islam Enlightenment
or the highest stage of any of those schools or religions,
(27:08):
it's essentially like a really calm, wise person who isn't
afraid of anything, who doesn't get riled up, who sort
of knows what really matters. Who's able to laugh at themselves,
who's able to see the big picture? You know, who
has some level of sort of moral principle that goes
(27:28):
sort of the.
Speaker 9 (27:28):
Bedrock of how they behave.
Speaker 10 (27:30):
Usually they have some sort of they have both moral
and physical courage, you know, like it's the same person, right,
and so like at the core of stoicism is these
sort of four virtues courage, wisdom, justice, and temperance.
Speaker 9 (27:46):
So like moderation, it's like very hard to find a.
Speaker 10 (27:50):
School that's like courage is bad, you know, wisdom is
not important definitely, who cares about moderation? And then like
feel free to treat other peop people badly? You know,
Like at the core of it, these are really basic,
almost self evident truths, but they get to them in
different ways, and they advise pursuing them in different ways,
(28:12):
whether it's meditation or journaling or the rational mind or
you know, the sort of non thinking, Like there's different
ways to get there, but they're fundamentally trying to teach
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
How the fuck do you do it?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Man? Because you've got kids, you've got this book business,
you do speaking gigs, you write books, you help other
people get their books up the charts. How on earth
does someone as busy as you do these How do
you find time for stillness?
Speaker 9 (28:38):
I build my life around it.
Speaker 10 (28:40):
Right like this morning, I got up early, and the
first thing I was doing was writing. It was not
touching my phone, it was not checking my email. It
was the writing that I had to do.
Speaker 9 (28:49):
For the day.
Speaker 10 (28:50):
And I had a very short to do list of
about six things that I had to accomplish. So I
did the writing. Then my son woke up. We went outside.
We took a long walk together, so we sort of
got in the right I got in the right head space,
I you know, experienced some nature.
Speaker 9 (29:06):
Then I came back.
Speaker 10 (29:07):
I did my journals, and then I went back into
my writing. And I had two things on my calendar today.
I had a talk I had to give and I
had this thing with you. So part of it is
as busy as it is. I'm also very deliberate about
what I say yes to and what I say no to,
and I try not to over commit. I try to
(29:28):
control my schedule, and I know that when I agree
to things, I'm taking time away from the thing that matters,
which is like doing the writing that I want to do.
So it's I'm very intentional. I know what I'm doing,
I know what I'm saying no to, and I also
know the bad habits that I try to avoid, you know,
whether it's watching a lot of the news or gossiping
(29:50):
about other people, or I try to be very contained
about Even though I can sort of do whatever I
want and set up my life however I want, I try.
I had to sort of be very ordered and structured
about it all because it is hard. You're not naturally productive.
You have to create systems that allow that productivity to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
So say, for example, someone's listening to this, then they're
most likely they're on a commute. They're like, that's all
well and good for you. Holiday you live in a
farm outside. You've deliberately taken yourself outside of a metropolitan city,
so you're limiting your inputs of who could drop around
for a start. Your avandith for your internet is lower,
so you can't be streaming video left and right. If
someone has got themselves into a routine, but their routine
(30:32):
just relies on being reactionary to their phone, to the
to the urgency of their kids got to go to swimming,
this one's got to go to dancing. I've got to
get dinner, and I've got to get something out of
the freezer for dinner. Letter on, I've got no fucking
time to sit down and write my thoughts down holiday.
You know, what would you say to someone is the
first thing they can start to work on to unravel
their day and try to find that stillness.
Speaker 10 (30:52):
Yeah, So first off, what I would say is like,
these aren't like accidental things that then allow me to
have stillness. Like I chose to live here in this
city in this way because I was prioritizing it. And
as much as you might think, like, oh, that's a
very privileged thing to do, well, it also cost a lot, right,
Like I gave up a lot of things to do
(31:14):
that it wasn't free. I'd make up more money and
be more plugged in and probably sell more books if
I lived in New York City or Los Angeles, right,
because I'd have access to things, but those things would
also have access to me. So it's about really deciding
what you want and how you want to live your life.
One essay I would urge everyone to read. Paul Graham
(31:34):
has an essay called Maker Versus manager, and he's like,
you got to figure out are you a maker or
you a manager?
Speaker 9 (31:41):
Like what do you do? And if you're a manager,
then yeah, your day.
Speaker 10 (31:45):
Is mostly going to be meetings and phone calls and
you know, checking in on stuff. But the reality is
a lot of people are makers, whether they think of
themselves that way or not. You know, they're a programmer,
or they're a physical trainer, or or they're a podcaster,
or they're a screenwriter, or they're a movie producer, or
you know, or they're a hedge fund trader. Right, your
(32:08):
job is to make things, to create insights, and then
to take actions based on those insights in a way
that creates value. And you're going to have trouble doing
that if you're jerked around, if you're easily distracted, if
you don't have routines and structures and systems in place
that prioritize the kind of thinking and the kind of
(32:31):
stillness that that requires. Right, And so it's really important
that you make that distinction in your life. But to
answer your question about little rules, I would say, like,
I didn't touch my phone for the first two and
a half hours that I was awake this morning. That's
not to say, oh, it's so wonderful to be me.
You were disconnected for the no I was working. But
(32:51):
what I don't do is start my day from a
reactive place. So what Donald Trump tweeted while I was
asleep for those two you know, while while I was
checked out, you know, the night and those two and
a half hours, I had no idea, but I did
know that the night before I went to bed, going, Okay,
the first thing I have to do is knock this
you know, article out. Or if I was a Hedgephonne Trader,
(33:15):
maybe it was like I got to read these ten
public filings, or I got to make this chart, or
you know, if you were a professional athlete, you're like, hey,
I got to do this this workout.
Speaker 9 (33:26):
I don't touch the phone in the morning.
Speaker 10 (33:27):
I go right into the main thing of the day,
having gotten myself in a headspace that is conducive to
doing that thing at an elite level.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You're not the first person to have talked about that
on this show. That you know, if the first thing
that you touch in the morning isn't your lover or
you know, one of your children, then something's up. I
feel like if you touch your phone before you touch
the people you live with.
Speaker 9 (33:52):
Yeah, and how is that success? Like you know what
I mean? That's that's the way I think.
Speaker 10 (33:56):
About it, Like if success is becoming a slave to
my calendar, like I'd rather not be successful, right, Like
to me, I define success primarily as autonomy, like do
I get.
Speaker 9 (34:09):
To do what I want to do the way I
want to do it? Right?
Speaker 10 (34:14):
And so this helps me decide what opportunities to say
yes to and no to, Like if you know, I
agree to do this thing, and now all of a
sudden I found that some person's bossing me around. I'm like, well,
you know, fuck this, Like this isn't what I signed
up for it, you know. Like so I kind of
think about, like how do I want my life to be?
And I sort of judge the opportunities that I see
(34:36):
along those lines.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
All Right, the lost Dad we're gonna hate from today.
It's Look, it's hard to think about a bit of
parenting chat than the one that I had with.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Doctor Billy gave.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
There's barely a minute of our conversation which wasn't filmed
with either a thoughtful or practical bit of parenting advice
back by his incredible research his xots and practice, or me.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Just trying to make dick jokes.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
You got to keep it light.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
We're making a show here and you're about to hear this.
Billy talks a lot in this whole Listen to the
whole show. It's fantastic, But in this bit here he
talks about evolving from ideas of unhealthy masculinity and the
portrayals we were all brought up with, to finding better
ways to regulate your own reactions, to effectively communicate and
try to connect with your kids.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
This is doctor Billy Garvey.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
When we have like no other voice when it comes
to talking to young man about masculinity.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
And in my case, it was vhs and magazines.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Now it's a tablet or a phone. What can happen
if if we as a parent momm did not have
time to jump in there. Right, she tried her best
and she did well, but she didn't have time to
kind of have her She wasn't she didn't know what
we were doing.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
You know, she was a work totally.
Speaker 11 (36:00):
And yeah, I actually wear kindred spirits because yeah, I
was the same. I was brought up by a single mum.
She was raising three boys and you know, same She
worked full time for Frankston City Council and then waitress
on the weekends and evenings, and then worked a lot
of weekends as well as a receptionist and you know,
just to try and stop the mortgage drowning her.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
And it was really hard.
Speaker 11 (36:20):
And you know, I have the same memories of you. I,
you know, watching all the action hero movies and being like,
that's what a man is, his muscles, and if he
has a problem, he uses physical violence to get what
he needs and get respect. Women are objects, their trophies.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
You know.
Speaker 11 (36:37):
The more women partners you have, you just grab them
and kiss them, you know, like you show them how
much of a man you are. And pornography is having
a hugely detrimental impact on what, you know, intimacy is
seen as by you know, people that are coming up now,
especially young boys through really early ages of teenage years
(36:58):
when you know, you and I, yeah, might have been
exposed to it.
Speaker 9 (37:02):
You know.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
I had an older brother who had all.
Speaker 11 (37:04):
Those magazines and it was really hard because I remember
having to you know, I probably still have some bias
in that.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
I work really hard. I was raised by.
Speaker 11 (37:14):
You know, strong feminist mother, but I witnessed a lot
of intimate partner violence against her, and so you know,
one of the biggest risk factors of adult mental illness
is developmental trauma, and one in three of it, one
in five of us, sorry, have experienced three different types
of developmental trauma, whether it's abuse, neglect, or household dysfunction,
(37:34):
parental mental illness, intimate partner violence. You know, this is
stuff that is really common through lots of households. And
then if you look and you have this awful kind
of acceleration of it because the movies are showing you
that men don't show their feelings.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
You know, they are a real man.
Speaker 11 (37:53):
If they just bury it or they release it through
anger and violence, that's to be celebrated. And that's not
just movies in our sporting culture, that's in a lot
of leadership positions. You know, hostility and aggression and I'm
the boss and I'll take what I want and you
will respect me because you'll fear me.
Speaker 4 (38:10):
But that's not true.
Speaker 11 (38:11):
That's that's false respect, and that's not someone that we
actually really value. We're just afraid of them. And I
think that you know, our ability to reflect back on
how that we will influence like that is a really
powerful thing, and to think, how can we do better
knowing that kids today are getting lots of influencers, that
people are capturing them and going, hey, come and spend
(38:31):
money with me, Come and spend time with me online.
I will make you feel good about yourself and I'll
show you that you're valued and that this future path
of power is ready for you. And it's it's a
false prophet that is hurting kids more than many other
things in our community.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
But sometimes remember in the fight scenes, Mum she worked
as a city GP for the Australian Army and she
would walk past the house. You know, she's laundry in
one hand, grocers and the other we're just sitting in
front of the TV. And she'd see people punching and go,
that's bullshit. That got to be dead after two punches
with it. Oh, And so we kind of at least
had an idea that the violence that we saw wasn't real.
(39:13):
And you know, later on, as I became a roadie,
I was like seventeen and I'm working in pubs and stuff,
and I saw what pub violence can be. Fights don't
look like John Wick now over in eight seconds, and
someone's probably never going to smile the same way again,
you know.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
And but the.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
People, if you've never been exposed to that, you might
go into a situation at a pub or something with
bravado when you're eighteen nineteen thinking I've seen how this works.
I punched him twice and then do some sort of
rad ninja kick and then everyone kisses me.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
No, you get king hit and you're dead.
Speaker 4 (39:48):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 11 (39:49):
I've never in my life started a fight, but my
fragility and my masculinity is that I can't walk away
from one.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
And I started pediatrics.
Speaker 11 (39:59):
My first day ever on a pediatric ward a very
long time ago, I had two black eyes, you know,
because the night before I'd been jumped by a bunch
of guys. And I started boxing because of that, because
I was like, that's the answer, is be able to
defend myself. But I you know, it's not true. It's
like it's not with violence against violence, just as you
(40:19):
said it, it can be hugely physically traumatic but also
really emotionally and psychologically traumatic. And I still carry that
around with me. I'm like hyper sensitive to know threats
and issues like that. And now I'm raising a boy
and a girl and it's huge privilege, but it's more
important for the safety of the community.
Speaker 4 (40:38):
How I raised my son, Charlie.
Speaker 11 (40:41):
And as you said, where are the depictions of healthy
ways to deal with stress, healthy ways to show emotions.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
That we're struggling with?
Speaker 11 (40:50):
You know, how do we see men that don't use
violence but actually use understanding and sympathy and empathy and
compassion to actually make our communities healthy and stronger and safer,
like because we can do better than what we're currently doing.
Like it's it's ridiculous and we just we love it
so much, that's the problem. It's so graphic. And we
(41:11):
even did Fight Club and Beautiful Boys recently, and you know,
I remember watching that as a teenager and thinking, isn't
this guy look how powerful Brad Pitt is. Look at
it doesn't care about anything. He's just violent and he
can take a hit, you can give a hit. He
doesn't have feelings, and he just talks about that idea
of resilience being just gritting your teeth and like taking
(41:33):
what's yours. And it's it's hugely detrimental because it does
you know, you were probably able to watch it and say,
maybe because of your mum, you were able to watch
it and go, but that's not real life. So you
didn't carry that through. But a lot of people do.
They carry it through with them, you know. And I
still have that difficulty with how I deal with my
(41:53):
anger today because of the experiences through my childhood but
also the influence those cultures.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Had on me.
Speaker 11 (41:59):
And you know, I work really hard to try and
get better with that, but it takes a lot of
time and effort, but it starts with me going, this
is something that's mine to work on, and I have
to take responsibility for it.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
So because auderies are often saying to me, and she
said it around g when she was, you know, fourteen
and fifteen started going out to parties and stuff like that,
she's not you. Okay, she's not you, and she's not
going to do the things that you did, and so
it's really difficult.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
It was really difficult.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
I had to learn how to do it to kind
of remember that when you're in the moment, can you
help me understand because it's something I struggle with a
lot as well. When it's a part of being a kid,
a little kid four five six years old, hitting pushing
that is a part of figuring it out as a parent.
What are things we can do to keep our own
histories with that sort of stuff to one side and
(42:50):
understand this is a part of them figuring out space
and boundaries and things like that, Like, what's because it's
going to happen, what are the healthy ways that we
might be.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
Able to do with deal with that?
Speaker 11 (43:00):
Yeah, I mean it's so good and ashure you obviously
do it naturally, even your story about this morning is
having an awareness of what's happening in our own feelings
because of what is happening in the environment around us.
And mindfulness has been misinterpreted as well. True mindfulness is
really just what's the experience I'm having. It's not what's
the reason and changing is. It's actually just being.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Aware of it.
Speaker 11 (43:21):
And when I've got a fiery little redheaded girl, like
I've got a sensitive teperament, she's got a sensitive teperament
that's set in stone. We were genetically destined for that.
I've given it to her, so I can see me
in her so much. But I have to be aware
of that and catch myself and go I've got a
risk of a trap that I'll fall into is supporting
(43:42):
her in a way that I would want to be supported.
And if I can do that first, and then I
can go in And even I said to a mum
yesterday and clinic who's like horrible, horrific trauma and she's
got this gorgeous seven year old girl who you know,
I can't go into detail because of how disturbing it
is what's happened to this family. But this mum is
(44:02):
coming down so hard on her, like every couple of minutes,
just like punitive yelling at her, don't do this, don't
do that. And I know her well enough now, So
we talked about how do you feel when you're experiencing
that and she's not listening or she's doing something you
don't wanted to, And then we talked about how you
need to connect with her and then you need to
(44:22):
actually think what would I like her to be doing instead,
and how do I help her do that?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
You know?
Speaker 11 (44:28):
And it's a really important thing because we often get
stuck on stop doing that, no, you know, and it
doesn't help, or you're okay, and things like that. Those
dismissive or punitive approaches not only they not help, but
they also risk shame, and shame is something that can
be hugely detrimental to our own mental health, but also
(44:49):
the attachment that we have in healthy relationships, because one
of the worst things we do as parents is we
withdraw love as a punishment. So we say, like, I'm
so angry at you because you hurt your brother or
you didn't listen to me. So I'm going to actually
pull support away, and I'm going to make you feel
like my love is conditional and my love will come
back when you comply. But that's actually when we most
(45:10):
importantly go towards kids and show them how unconditionally we
love them. That doesn't mean we're being permissive. That doesn't
mean we're saying do whatever you want. It's saying we'll
face this together, and I'll actually guide you with as
much support as you need to succeed in the thing
that I want you to be doing.
Speaker 2 (45:25):
Instead, the kind of parenting you're describing is the kind
of parenting I'm going to say, pretty much nobody my
age ever saw. That's all right, So I understand you
when you say connect with the kid and da da da,
I'm like, and.
Speaker 6 (45:44):
What does that look like?
Speaker 9 (45:46):
All right?
Speaker 3 (45:46):
I have no like so, and I'm not alone in that.
So I'm wondering. I don't know what I'll be. I'll be.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It's three minutes left before we have got We've passed
every little fast lie last flag. We've got to get
in the car. We've got to get out of here.
We've got to get to school. And I haven't finished
my breakfast, but I'm still in my pajamas and I'm
just being just not wanting to do anything you tell me,
all right, and I'm throwing stuff go.
Speaker 11 (46:15):
So first, I'm getting really upset and annoyed, and I've
got to sit with that, and I've got to own
that I can't give that to you.
Speaker 4 (46:21):
You're a kid.
Speaker 11 (46:22):
Next, I think, Okay, do I actually have the capacity
in the space to support usher in this? And if
I do, my first priority once i'm calm, is going
in regulated and trying to connect with you.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
Why are you bringing all that, dad? Why are you're
making all huffing puffing noises?
Speaker 6 (46:38):
Dad?
Speaker 11 (46:39):
Yeah, because I'm getting frustrated, But that's actually on me
because I should be supporting you more to meet you
know what we need to do this morning.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
And I can see that you really loved it.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
I don't want to go.
Speaker 11 (46:50):
I can see I don't want to go. Yeah, I
can see that. You know you're having a great time.
And what we're going to do is we're going to
come back to this, or you can bring in the
car with you. But what I actually need is you
to s o how good you are at getting in
the car really fast, or helping your brother get into
the seat, or like guiding with a direction that is
positive that the kid is a small stretch. They can
(47:11):
achieve it quickly and you can reinforce it instantly, and
that's called process praise.
Speaker 4 (47:15):
And process praise is not you're a good boy, it's
what you're doing is great.
Speaker 11 (47:20):
And process praise is actually more beneficial to intrinsic motivation
because it's not I either good or bad. It's the
stuff that I make an effort on get celebrated and
reinforces the fact that I succeed in things I make
an effort towards. And then thinking about that but also
remembering it's actually okay. If you're like I do not
have the space, I don't have the time, and I
(47:41):
can't actually regulate myself. You just need to get in
the car but you won't get better at it by
doing those. You'll get better at it by the sixty
percent of the time that you can get down on
a kid's level, like physically get down eyes at the
same level of below them and.
Speaker 4 (47:55):
Just connect with them.
Speaker 11 (47:56):
And we talk a lot as parents, especially like people
like you and I that like we like using words,
but actually a lot of it is nonverbal. A lot
of it is just being in the space with the
kid and being calm. And that's contagious because that's how
we're built. We're wired to attach. That's why mothers sacrifice
so much resources for newborn babies because attachment bonds are
(48:19):
so strong. And so if you just connect and when
you do talk, it's open language, it's deep, it's low,
and it's slow, and it's trying to understand with curiosity,
how can I support you better to succeed at the
thing I need us both.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
To That's it Father's Day twenty twenty five. I hope
it was all right for you this Sunday Father's Day.
Don't forget for the father or father person in your life.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Just call them up and.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Say thanks, say hey, if you're a chyney, bring them
along to story club links in the show notes. If
you want to get them, somebody get them. So what
now what you can get them that book? It's in
the show notes as well. Now, these bits you've just
heard are all part of much full, long conversations which
are in the back of the podcast feed.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Just scroll back and find them.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
And you know, wherever you're listening to this whatever podcast
app you're just search Billy Garvey or search Hamish Blake.
You'll find that exact episode and knock your socks off
to follow the podcast, like it, subscribe it, share it,
tell other people. As I said, there's another parent to
add to the mix, which is coming next week, fitting
in the theme of parenting and fatherhood. But I'll feel
(49:28):
you in on that all right, See on Monday.
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