November 4, 2025 • 52 mins
Are there parts of yourself, maybe long lost from your past or your childhood, that are waiting to be heard, to be honoured, to expand the person you think you are?
This was certainly the case for Luke Bateman.
In this episode, the ex-NRL player and Bachelor turned BookTok sensation, author and host of new podcast In the Good Books opens to Osher about:
- Why shame was so much a part of his life as a child
- Coming back from the dark depths of his gambling addiction and depression
- How he dealt with the controversy and social media blowback following news of his book deal
- Why inner work is essential to achieving any goal
CONTENT WARNING: This episode includes discussions of suicidal thoughts.
For support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14.
For tickets to Story Club and for Osher's new book So What, Now What? head here
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:00):
If you want to achieve something in your outer life,
you must first have your inner world in order. If
you want to do big things in the world, if
you want to achieve your worldly goals, you must do
inner work. You cannot achieve in the world if you
(00:23):
have not got your inner world in in order.
S2 (00:32):
G'day. Thanks for downloading the show. This is better than yesterday.
Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day
to day better than yesterday. Every single episode since 2013.
Every week since then. My name is Joshua Ginsberg. Thank
you so much for being here. Got a question for you.
What did you love to do as a kid that
you don't really do anymore? Do you ever think about it?
Do you miss it when it goes a little quiet
(00:54):
in your in between stuff, does a part of you feel,
I don't know, a bit empty because that thing that
you love isn't a part of who you are anymore. Well,
in the case of an x40 player, you might think
that would be the game of footy. But in the
case of my guest today, it wasn't. It was reading
specifically reading the genre of fantasy books, allowing this back
(01:17):
into his life, reintegrating it, recognising that little kid who
loved it that was still a part of who he was,
that came at a really important time in his life
and it made all the difference. My guest today is
Luke Bateman. He's an ex NRL player who used to
play for Canberra Raiders. He was once a bachelor and
he is, as you will hear, a self-confessed nerd. He's
(01:39):
an author, he's a lover of books, he's a book
talk star, he's a podcaster and he's got a new podcast.
It's called In the Good Books. Yes, indeed. In this
conversation he talks about growing up, kind of feeling a
bit ashamed about who he was and what he liked,
the highs and lows of a footy career that started
when he was very young, his struggle with a crippling
(01:59):
gambling addiction that came after that, and the very dark
places that led him to and how rediscovering, reading and
reintegrating his inner child into who he was helped lead
him towards a life in recovery. Luke speaks about his
beautiful relationship with his mum, about being open around his
love of reading, and how that made him a bit
(02:21):
of a sensation, and how he dealt with the controversy
that came with that, especially around the book deal that
came to him. It's a great conversation and we're going
to get right into it. Back in a moment. Thank
you so much for listening to the show. We're getting
(02:42):
to Luke Bateman in just a moment. This weekend's Story Club,
the 9th of November at the Factory Theatre in Marrickville.
Our lineup is almighty. Mark Humphries had to step out
for a sec, but Shane Jenek, aka Courtney Act will
be live on stage telling a true story, as well
as Harley Breen, Nina Oyama. You know her from deadlock.
Becker Melrose. She writes for Gruen. Steph Broadbridge, who wrote
(03:03):
Breakin the Musical and just came back from Edinburgh. These
people are all going to be on stage this Sunday night,
the 9th of November, Factory Theatre, Marrickville. There's a few
tickets left. Get around it. This one will sell out
and might be our last show for a little bit,
so do not miss it. Also, that's in the show
notes where the link is. You can also get my
new book. It's called So What Now what? My guest today,
(03:25):
Luke Bateman, is a fascinating man. You might need to
forget everything you thought you knew about him. Just a
heads up. This conversation does briefly touch on thoughts of suicide,
because that is where his addiction and things took him.
So if you do need a bit of support, if
those things, if this conversation brings anything up for you,
lifeline's always there. 13 1114. Enjoy. The deep and husky
(03:47):
tones are very muscly. Luke Bateman. Welcome. Welcome to to Sydney.
Where's home for you? At the moment.
S1 (03:58):
I'm out at Injune in western Queensland. It's oh it's
about an hour. An hour north of Roma.
S2 (04:08):
Delightful. Yeah. And Roma, for people who don't know, is
the site of where the Australian gas industry first started.
S1 (04:16):
And the gas industry in Roma is still very much
alive and kicking.
S2 (04:20):
There was a fire in Roma that was so enormous. Uh,
they they didn't know what the fuck they were doing.
They were just drilling for shit. And the bubbles started
coming out and like, oh, this is bad. And sure enough,
it caught fire. It burned for 45 days. It was
so huge. People were coming from New Zealand to come
and look at it as a tourist in the 1800s. Yeah,
he's fucking amazing what happened. What happens up in Injune?
S1 (04:42):
That's where I got my business up there. So you're.
S2 (04:45):
Still cutting.
S1 (04:45):
Wood? Yeah. Timber cutter. So I've got my logging business
up there.
S2 (04:48):
You're a lumberjack and you're okay?
S1 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah. So I'm cutting timber. where we're about two
hours north west of Injune.
S2 (04:55):
I. When I first met you doing Bachelor, um, I,
we did have some conversation about the Husqvarna, um, t5 t5. Yeah.
S1 (05:05):
The little the little household chainsaw.
S2 (05:07):
Oh, you're a small one.
S1 (05:08):
Yeah, just a little one.
S2 (05:10):
When you've got a. But then you broke my heart
a bit. He says no, we don't, we don't really
do anything with chainsaws anymore. It's like all big machines.
S1 (05:16):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (05:16):
Because it's much, much safer.
S1 (05:19):
Much more efficient.
S2 (05:20):
Was Wood Chopper. The Ekka ever in your future when
you were a kid?
S1 (05:24):
Nah. My my, um. My stepdad cut timber pretty much
like my whole childhood. Never, ever. Once was I like,
that's that's going to be like my career or I'll
be doing that one day. But that's how life work.
S2 (05:38):
It was just footy.
S1 (05:39):
Yeah. Yeah, it was just footy. Yeah, right. Focus on footy.
Like we always got told. It was always like when
I was a teenager and then even like early 20s,
I was like footy end one day and you need
to have a plan about what you're going to do. Yeah,
but I never had a plan. Like, I just, like,
I just never had a plan. No. So when footy
did end, and very unexpectedly for me, I was kind
(06:00):
of like, oh what now? And my, my stepdad was like,
I was pretty wayward at the time, but my stepdad
was like, mate, you're coming with me to work for me. And,
and I went out there working with him and like
it was home for me. So I loved it. And, um,
then started my own company, got my own contracts and
own machinery and went from there.
S2 (06:20):
Much like, um, you know, parts of the Northern Territory
and parts of South Australia are just these just hubs
of AFL talent. What is it about western Queensland? Because
some of the most all time players ever come from
exactly the part of the world that you come from.
What is it about western Queensland.
S1 (06:35):
In western Queensland? Every kid born there like you play
rugby league because that's that's the only option that you have.
You play rugby league or you don't play sport. So
I think every kid out there plays rugby league and
then admires the Queensland Origin team and wants to be
an origin player.
S2 (06:52):
Lockyer. Beetson all from out that way.
S1 (06:55):
Oh, there's been heaps. Well, if you talk not even,
just if you talk country Queensland in general. Unbelievable. It's
just like the honour list is a mile long.
S2 (07:04):
But that particular the kind of injune Roma particularly at that.
S1 (07:07):
That's Lockyer beaten. Ah there's someone else to Bateman one
of the greats.
S2 (07:15):
How old were you when you kind of realised I
might be better at this than other people?
S1 (07:20):
No, not. Not in an arrogant manner. No, no, no.
But like early on, probably like under ten. Really? Yeah.
S2 (07:29):
And then what does it feel like when you're, you're the,
you know, that kid, that great player. And then I
don't know, someone taps you on the shoulder and you
go to a, I don't know, a representative team or
an area team, and now you're playing with other people
of that standard. What's that feel like?
S1 (07:41):
I always question myself when you went to like, the
representative levels, because I was from the country, and then
you'd go to the representative levels, and they're all the
city kids and all the kids who'd done other things
and were in sort of like better competitions and high
quality competitions. And, and I always questioned myself and I
was like, oh, you know, do I really belong here?
(08:02):
Or was I just sort of like the best kid
from my area? Yeah.
S2 (08:06):
But then you, you know, you result, your results speak
for themselves.
S1 (08:10):
But then you'd play good footy and you'd be like, okay,
now I do belong here. Yeah.
S2 (08:14):
When you made your, um, first grade debut, how was it, Raiders,
that you went all the way down to? That's a
long way from Injune.
S1 (08:22):
Yeah.
S2 (08:23):
What was that like?
S1 (08:24):
I'd always obviously live with my family to that point,
and that was as a 17 year old. Like leaving
your family, moving interstate. Pretty, pretty big move. A pretty
tough ice. Like, I had a fair bit of homesickness
to begin with and found myself down in Canberra at
17 years old in a like a professional football environment.
S2 (08:40):
How do you deal with homesickness when you're 17?
S1 (08:43):
Not well mate, not well, you don't. I don't think
you deal with many things too well when you're 17.
S2 (08:48):
But particularly that there's all this pressure that you've got
on yourself, but also from people around you and you start, oh, shit,
you're like instantly, oh, it's men. Yeah, men. Men.
S1 (08:58):
Yeah.
S2 (08:59):
Everything on the line?
S1 (09:01):
Yeah.
S2 (09:01):
Who see you as. Are you coming to take my
spot like it's hardcore 100%.
S1 (09:07):
Yeah. It's a it's a ruthless environment.
S2 (09:10):
Was there anything off off field that was there to
support you?
S1 (09:13):
Oh, not really, mate, to be fair. Um, I'm. I mean,
the off field environment was pretty much like you just
you idolize, like, you know, you you're a young kid,
and you idolize the people that you're now sort of
training with at that. Like at that young age. I
wasn't playing with them yet. But you idolized like the
(09:35):
NRL players that you want to be one day and
then you sort of just time with them off field.
And I think like the off field culture of Of
the NRL is quite corrosive, like there was, you know,
it was drinking and gambling and that sort of stuff. And,
and you just sort of tied in with that behaviour.
S2 (09:53):
And it's doesn't seem abnormal because this is what we do.
S1 (09:58):
Is literally just normal. And I don't even think that
that's I don't think that that's like solely part of
the NRL. Like I've got mates who don't play football.
And the normal, you know, what you do in society is,
you know, on a weekend or whatever, you go to
the pub and you have a bet and you have
a drink and you get blown.
S2 (10:14):
And then I got, I got real lucky that I
didn't discover I didn't like, hey, there was no mobile phones,
there was no mobile gaming, but I didn't know what
the tab was until I was like 18. I was
on the dole.
S1 (10:28):
And.
S2 (10:29):
Worst thing ever happened won the first bet I put on.
Worst thing ever. Yeah. And I thought, this is great.
I can turn my dole check into, I can put
zeros on it. This is unreal. It didn't work out
that way. And I've figured out pretty quickly that it's
not worth me taking the bus up to Indooroopilly to,
you know, put, you know, 20 bucks across the bench
there at the tab.
S1 (10:50):
The tab.
S2 (10:50):
Cross my fingers and hope that race eight at Doomben
is going to pay out. There's other ways that I can.
In fact, I'm making money by not going there. Yeah, yeah. Um,
but that's not to say that me and me and
gambling apps haven't had. I mean, I'm sober, but once
I got sober, it's still there. That's still that. That thing,
that thing to go and escape to is still there.
(11:10):
I had a fucking before they made it illegal. Me
and internet poker were. Oh, boy, oh, man.
S1 (11:17):
Really like two.
S2 (11:18):
Tables at once. Like playing tournaments all fucking day.
S1 (11:20):
You got split screens.
S2 (11:22):
I did, I was it was the mid 2000, mate.
S1 (11:24):
Yeah.
S2 (11:24):
So like, I was fancy.
S1 (11:25):
I had two monitors. You were high tech.
S2 (11:27):
I got two monitors now, but.
S1 (11:28):
Everyone's.
S2 (11:28):
Got two monitors now because like, gaming. But like, back
then I had two. I had two monitors and this
one was the. That one was the porn one, but
this one.
S1 (11:34):
Was.
S2 (11:35):
This one was the gambling one. I was playing two
tournaments at the same time, like.
S1 (11:39):
Just.
S2 (11:39):
In the daytime.
S1 (11:40):
Yeah, it was.
S2 (11:41):
A bad time.
S1 (11:42):
Yeah.
S2 (11:42):
And, you know, when I think of. I talk about
it when I talk on stage, like.
S1 (11:45):
Yeah.
S2 (11:46):
It was just normal because that's just what I was doing.
If I talk about it now, I'm like, I'm like,
and it was US dollars. Like, what the fuck was I?
S1 (11:52):
You look back at someone like your behaviors and actions
and you go that it's just so insane.
S2 (11:58):
While you were playing, it was an injury. Could you
talk us through what what that week was like?
S1 (12:03):
Oh, well, yeah. I, um, at the start of 2019,
I did my knee. And it wasn't in the beginning
actually meant to be that big of an issue because
I tore my meniscus and it was sort of like
they were like, oh, it'd be six weeks and you'll
be back.
S2 (12:20):
Was it a training or a tackle?
S1 (12:22):
Uh, playing footy in a tackle? Yeah, I just like twisted.
And then in the rehab it was mismanaged. And I
actually ended up with a, like, a fractured bone. Oh, yeah.
So the because it was bone on bone in my
knee where the, where it was compounding it like fractured.
S2 (12:40):
Fractured after the initial injury?
S1 (12:42):
Yeah. After the initial injury. So then that was pretty
much they were just like, mate, this is like that's
six months. Pretty like nothing. That's like your season's done.
And that was the I was off contract that year.
And obviously I had other issues going on outside of
football as well. Like a bad place, bad place personally.
(13:02):
And then my career was falling apart as well. And
it was tough, mate, like it was. It was really
tough and then got to the end of got through that,
got to the end of my contract at the end
of 2019 and signed a one year deal for like
an absolute pittance for 2020. And I was like, okay,
I'll do my rehab, get back to playing footy and
(13:25):
give it another go. And then Covid hit and Covid
shut everything down and I just had to accept the
fact I, I was just like, well, this, this is,
this is it for me. Like I need to go
and earn some money.
S2 (13:37):
I mean, I know this experience from when I had
all the hip surgery and stuff getting told by my physio,
I'll never forget it was on Macquarie Street. He was
standing between me and, um, the botanical gardens and I
could see the gardens behind him and he's telling me
he goes, yeah, you've got fe and osteoarthritis. You're going
to have to stop running. And I running was my identity.
(14:00):
That was it. I was a runner. That is what
I did every day. And and he's like, are you
alright man? He even held out, held me because he said,
I thought you were going to fall over. Yeah, yeah.
I felt the floor drop out from under me. Yeah.
What's it like when this thing that you've only wanted
to do since you were under ten? Under six suddenly gone?
S1 (14:22):
Yeah. Uh, it's it's difficult when you draw your value
in the world from, you know, what you do, and
then that's taken away from you. Then you have to.
Then you question yourself and you go, well, who am I? Like,
where do I belong? Who am I? What place do
I have in the world? If I'm not a NRL player,
(14:44):
then who? Who is Luke Bateman? Who is Luke Bateman?
And I was faced with that like that question very
quickly and very unexpectedly. And it also happened in a
time in my life where, as I said, like personally,
things weren't well, my career had just ended out of
the blue. It was a tough it was a tough,
tough period of life.
S2 (15:05):
Were you in contact with your family? Were they aware
of how things were?
S1 (15:09):
My mum was sort of the one who knew everything
that was going on, and I kept telling her, like,
I was like, you can't tell my stepfather. You can't
tell Donny because I didn't want him to know because I,
I felt so much shame and embarrassment around it. I
was like, you can't tell him. And but he he
knew bits and pieces. And then it got to the
(15:30):
point where he had to like he found out about
all of it. Yeah.
S2 (15:34):
And so what, you're like 26 or 26.
S1 (15:36):
Yeah. 2026. Yeah.
S2 (15:39):
Surely you had an idea of what what would happen
if something didn't change.
S1 (15:43):
I was at the end of the tracks and I
got to the point. I said, it's this goes one
of two ways, and I either end up with me
in a coffin or I have to change my life.
Like that's the that is literally the only two options
that I have left ahead. Yeah.
S2 (16:00):
And I having been in that position myself, unfortunately, more
than once. One of them takes a shit load of work.
S1 (16:12):
It's hard because when you're not in that space and
you look at that, you're like, well, that is an
easy choice. And it's very clear. But when you're in
that place, yeah, you're bereft of hope. It truly like the,
the other choice is, is very appealing. Yeah. is really
(16:33):
appealing because you're like, well, there's like there is no hope.
And going that way is a lot of pain, a
lot of suffering, and who even knows if it's possible
or what that looks like. Whereas I know what this
looks like and it is there's no pain there and
there's no suffering there, you know.
S2 (16:50):
Yeah, you're describing it very, very, very.
S1 (16:52):
And and.
S2 (16:53):
Which is a lie. Let's be clear. That's a lie.
S1 (16:55):
Yeah.
S2 (16:55):
Sorry. That's what your brain's convincing you.
S1 (16:57):
In the moment. Yes, yes, yes. That's actually. No, no,
that's not reality.
S2 (17:00):
It's not reality at all.
S1 (17:01):
But this is what.
S2 (17:02):
This is how.
S1 (17:03):
That's what you're like. That's what your thoughts and that's
what you're convincing yourself of. Yeah. You know, you still
have a sense of reality to a degree. Yeah. And that,
you know, I was like, well, that's not appealing because
even though that's easier and that doesn't have pain, like
it still isn't what I want. Yeah. So I had
to make the tough decision to, to go the other way.
S2 (17:23):
I found out a, a therapist told me the word
for it. It's called surcease. It's a very old word,
but it means me, success means, um, I. I don't
want to die. Um, but I can't stand another day
alive like this.
S1 (17:39):
Oh, that's very apt.
S2 (17:42):
And that's the word very. That's the word that describes it. So. So.
S1 (17:46):
Yeah, that's that's. Yeah. That's nail on the head. That's it. Yeah.
S2 (17:49):
That's it. And in that point you have it's unfortunate
because our brain tries to convince us to make a
take make a permanent solution or find a permanent solution
to what's a temporary problem. We are as you mentioned,
something happens to our perception, a perception of time. And
we're unable to picture a time when it won't be
(18:11):
like this. As far as we're concerned, this is how
it's going to be forever. Yeah, forever. In that moment
when when it was happening to me, I knew enough
because I, you know, gotten sober. I knew enough to know, oh,
my brain's starting to do this. I need to just
pick up the phone, check my thoughts for someone else's brain.
What did you do in that in those moments.
S1 (18:31):
I drove to my mum, so I drove to my
mum's place. I walked in and I broke down crying
and I said, mum, look, I need to go to rehab. Like,
I just that was the only thing left to me.
I was like, I like, I have to go to rehab. Yeah. Um,
because I resisted it at that point. I'd been resisting
it for a long time, and I just, I just. Yeah,
because I was like, this is the only thing I
(18:53):
have left.
S2 (18:54):
How did you even know what it was? I mean, I,
I had an idea about these places, but I didn't
know that. I didn't know what they were, where they were,
how they existed, how you got in.
S1 (19:02):
I had no idea. My my mum had done a
lot of research on it. Yeah. So my mum had
done a lot of research because she was the one
she kept saying to me, she's like, look, I want
you to do this, Luke. I want you to do this.
And every time she would tell me, I just would resist.
And I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Like
I'm not doing that. And then it just got to
the point where I, I just like, nah, okay, I'm
doing it. Yeah. Um, let's like, let's work out together
(19:22):
how this happened. So she already she already had a
bit of information on her and then together we made
a choice.
S2 (19:29):
Would you do, like 30 days, 90 days.
S1 (19:31):
30 days.
S2 (19:32):
30.
S1 (19:32):
Days, 30 days? Yeah, yeah.
S2 (19:33):
And for people who wonder, like, what's that about? Like
what goes on? What was your biggest misconceptions about rehab?
S1 (19:40):
Oh, my. Um, I, I, I don't think I was,
I wasn't resistant to rehab itself. I was resistant to
being a person who went to rehab. I was resistant
to the shame or admit, like, the admitting that I
(20:02):
was at that level. You know.
S2 (20:04):
Self-stigma.
S1 (20:04):
Is way worse.
S2 (20:05):
Than any stigma. I give a fuck what anyone says.
You know, I'll say I've had psychosis. I don't give
a shit. Saying that because nothing you can say to
me is worse than the shit I feel about myself.
I'll fucking tell anybody. Yeah. Um, but I've done that.
Like I didn't want to when I was first offered
the meds. I didn't want to take them because I
didn't want to be the kind of person that needed
to take them.
S1 (20:25):
Exactly.
S2 (20:25):
All right. That was the. I didn't want to get
the help, because I didn't want to be the kind.
S1 (20:29):
Of person who needed to get needed help. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
S2 (20:31):
Fucking I am.
S1 (20:33):
Yeah. And I am too. And I am too. But yeah, that's.
S2 (20:37):
A hard one to get through that one.
S1 (20:38):
It is man. That's that's like that's your ego. That's
your ego being a barrier. And that is such a
like and that and that happens every single day in
so many different avenues. But I went to rehab, and
my rehab experience was obviously like it was a bit
of a whirlwind, but I went to a detox clinic,
so I was in the detox clinic with, um, like
(21:00):
alcoholics and drug addicts who were day one of coming
off of like heavy drug use. And it was eye
opening to say the least. Yeah. But I was like
the best thing for me. I was in there with
with these people who were, you know, heroin and meth addicts.
(21:21):
And it was just humbled me because I looked at
them and I was like, you're my peer. Like you
are a fellow of mine. I am one of you.
And to me, that was one of the best things
that ever happened to me. That humbled me to the
point where before that, I would have always thought myself
(21:44):
above that. And then to see that person as my peer,
as my equal. Yeah, that was such a formative moment
in me as a person.
S2 (21:54):
My, my, my guy says to me, he says, you
got to find humility before humility finds you. And and
I still I still have to seek it. Because that
ego that got me into all the trouble still around.
It's not still in there. And and I still have
to arm wrestle it like Sylvester Stallone movie every day.
S1 (22:14):
Every every, every every minute.
S2 (22:15):
Sometimes better.
S1 (22:16):
Than others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's so true though
you do. Because Of humility. Humility found me. And when
humility finds you. It's. It's not kind to you.
S2 (22:28):
So how does it how do you balance the ego
thing with showing up on a TV show like Bachelor?
How does the how do you hold on to that
ego in that environment where everyone's. And for the case
for the show, it must be very difficult because for
the show to work, we have to turn that person into, oh.
S1 (22:48):
We have to.
S2 (22:48):
We have to put them on a pedestal.
S1 (22:50):
Yeah, we.
S2 (22:51):
We look after their every need. We have someone around
who's there to get you a, you know, chewing gum.
You want soda water, you want some? Whatever you want.
Any time of day or night. Like, how do you
keep your feet on the ground in that situation?
S1 (23:04):
By the time The Bachelor, um, experience happened, I was pretty.
I was actually pretty grounded as a person. Uh, and
I and and it's really important to meet situations like
that with gratitude. Gratitude is a massive, massive thing for me.
I think gratitude is a really grounding, a really grounding practice.
(23:25):
So throughout that whole Bachelor experience, every day I kept
saying to myself, how lucky am I to be in
this place? I'll never get to do this again. Not
many people will ever get to do this experience. Like,
how lucky am I that I'm the person who gets
to do this experience? And I need to remind. I
did remind myself that every day and was just very,
(23:47):
as I said, just very glad to be there. Never,
never thought myself above anyone. Not above like the make
up artist. Not above the crew, not above the film
film crew, not above anybody. Um.
S2 (23:58):
It was freaking nuts. That one. The one in Melbourne.
I really liked the three batch version of it. I
thought it was really fun. Yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed.
S1 (24:07):
I have no experience in any other version.
S2 (24:10):
I really liked it because, um, it was our 11th
season of that one of Bachelor, and I had developed
quite a degree of trust with the EPs and the showrunners,
and because we did that whole part before, I'd bring
you guys in all the stuff of getting everybody to
(24:32):
talk about what happened that week used to happen in
individual interviews. Yeah. And because we were quite big survivor
fans and our director directed survivor, um, what if we
did the Rose Council? What if we made it like
at the end where JLP or Jenny is like, let's
give it a shot. So we tried it in the
Goldie and it was really good, but it's it's a lot.
(24:55):
They put a lot of trust in me to be
able to wrangle that. And you, there was a lot
of big personalities in that room. So I really enjoyed, um,
I like the, the dynamic.
S1 (25:07):
Of.
S2 (25:07):
Having, um.
S1 (25:08):
Yeah.
S2 (25:09):
Of having those.
S1 (25:10):
Of having three bugs.
S2 (25:10):
Yeah. It was actually pretty good.
S1 (25:12):
Yeah.
S2 (25:12):
Yeah, it was actually, it was actually pretty good.
S1 (25:14):
Um, it adds more layers for you.
S2 (25:16):
Hold as though.
S1 (25:18):
It was cold.
S2 (25:19):
Winter.
S1 (25:19):
In Melbourne.
S2 (25:20):
What was that?
S1 (25:22):
It was cold. And then they. And then we'd do
like the the pool dates. Excellent. Right, mate. And it's
it's two degrees. Like. Yeah. Jump! Take everything off. Jump
in the pool. Like what?
S2 (25:36):
What was it like when you watched it back? Because it's.
I know for me, it's. It's weird you didn't watch it.
S1 (25:41):
I didn't watch.
S2 (25:42):
It.
S1 (25:42):
You didn't watch it? Nah, nah, I didn't watch it.
I watched I watched the first episode and I watched
the last episode. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's it. Didn't watch
anything in between? Nah, I couldn't do it. I even
it's funny. Like, I even hate, like, I hate seeing
myself on a screen. I know that sounds ridiculous because, like,
(26:03):
I upload videos on social media all the time, but
I hate watching myself on a screen.
S2 (26:09):
Right.
S1 (26:10):
I actually don't know. I just it makes me cringe,
like I just cringe at myself.
S2 (26:17):
I do kind of remember that feeling. I found that
if I kind of looked at it from a place
of like, how can I look at it like game tape?
How can I look at it to improve? Um, over time,
it was it was easier.
S1 (26:28):
That's a good tip, actually.
S2 (26:29):
It was it was easier. I'm happy to.
S1 (26:32):
Yeah.
S2 (26:32):
Happy to chat to you about it. But I was
also doing so much of it. We were doing like
20 something hours a week of it.
S1 (26:37):
Yeah.
S2 (26:38):
So you got used to it pretty quick?
S1 (26:39):
Yeah.
S2 (26:39):
That's true. It wasn't just like 90s or a minute here. Yeah,
it was all the time. Yeah. All all all the time.
When you did get back up out out of rehab
and you got back, um, why were you able to
talk to your stepdad about that? Were you able to,
you know, jump over that? Because shame traps us, man.
Shame traps us in a place where we don't get treatment.
(27:00):
Shame traps isn't a place where we isolate from people
who are trying to help us. Shame makes us do
pretty dumb stuff on there.
S1 (27:09):
I actually think shame is one of the major issues
with men today. We as men have so much shame
as a culture, like we have so much shame around
so many things. And I think, you know, vulnerability and
openness are like really, really lacking in today's world because
everyone men try to live to characters and really hide
(27:34):
any weakness and vulnerability. And as you said, shame traps us.
And that was that was a massive issue for me
was the shame that I felt. And when I did
like when I, when I got like when I'd been
through everything and I'd got out of rehab, I, me
and my stepdad have talked about it multiple times. And
(27:54):
it's funny, he's he's old school and he's just an
old fellow from western Queensland. He grew up, he left
school in grade nine, worked on cattle properties, you know,
for sort of 20 or first, sort of 30, 40
years of his life before he went into logging. So
he's he's just always been in hard physical labor his
whole life, and is one of those men who like feelings.
(28:16):
What you just. Whatever happens, you just shove it down
and you get on with it. So he's, um, he's
a he's a great man and a very open man.
But he always, like he struggles to understand and he
struggles to he really struggles to empathize with the situation
because it's just so removed from anything that he's ever
(28:39):
experienced or been a part of. And it's funny when
you talk to him because you see his you see
him when you're talking about you see him struggling to
compute it. And he's just like, I just I just
never understood how he just couldn't stop. He just, you know,
and he's like, you just all you had to do
was just not do it. And, you know, and you're
just like, yeah, like you're not wrong. You're not wrong.
(29:01):
It's it's it's pretty simple. You just not do it. Yeah.
So it's funny but he does like, as I said
like he, he does try and and understand, but it's
funny just to. It's funny to see that that difference
in in culture and upbringing.
S2 (29:18):
And that's the thing that where education of the family
is so important when it comes to addiction. Um, just
helping people understand that, yeah, they can't not do it
because something has happened in their brain that for whatever reason,
it's now at a point where the choice they can
no longer make the choice, and they're not doing it
because they don't like you or they don't love you,
(29:39):
or they don't believe you when they know they're gonna die.
S1 (29:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2 (29:43):
They know they're going to lose everything. And even though
they know that, it's still the best option they have.
S1 (29:49):
Yeah.
S2 (29:50):
Because not doing it is so painful. Yeah. And so
bad that they will still do that thing. And a
lot of a lot of families don't don't get that. Yeah.
Which I understand.
S1 (30:01):
Comes back to how you, you know, neurochemistry works and
it's mother nature didn't put us here to thrive. Mother
nature put us here to survive. And when, like. And
when your brain. When your. You know, when your circuitry
says like. This is my survival mechanism. It overrides everything.
(30:23):
And even though that survival mechanism is what is, what
is killing you when your brain is like, this is
what keeps me, you know, keeps me alive. And that's
what it is. It's like, this is my coping mechanism.
This is my survival mechanism. I need to do this
to avoid, like the pain inside of me. That's what
I need to do to survive. That's what gets me
(30:43):
over it. It's like.
S2 (30:44):
Drinking.
S1 (30:44):
Water. Literally. Exactly. And it's just like your brain just overrides.
And no matter how much you're like, I don't want
to do this. I know this is real life. Your
brain just goes bad luck, buddy. We're doing that.
S2 (30:53):
And I love watching football. And I fucking hate when
those ads have like. And it's only men. It's like
you've got shit mates if they're not on mates, bed
with your mates. You know, I have good mates. If
you're not already in a chat with a fucking multi
with multi mates, you know, and it's always the guy
who's a loser by himself or he's, I've seen fucking
(31:16):
ads where guys are going into war together in colourful suits. Right. And,
and at the end.
S1 (31:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2 (31:23):
Like how fucking vulnerable are these people. Like $25 billion to.
There was I think it was to April this year.
S1 (31:31):
Aussies are the biggest gambling losers per capita out of everywhere.
And I seen a stat the other day that said
something like we have 3% or 2% of the world's population,
and we have 50% of the world's poker machines. Oh man,
when you get to that point, and it's literally the
money and there's entire industries and cultures built on it,
(31:53):
how do you how do you how do you break
down institutions that have been literally built upon that? And
those institutions are now so large, you know, and that's
I said to you, you You know that is not
a gambling is not a rugby league issue. Gambling is
a cultural issue. Oh yeah. Yeah. I've had you know,
(32:14):
I have mates who are just plumbers and sparkies and
who have had the exact same issues as me. And
then you see, you go to the pub on a
weekend and on a Saturday. Who's the tab filled with?
It's filled with young blokes like, you know, 18 to 25,
18 to 30. They're packed out in pubs every Saturday
betting at the tab. It's just it is ingrained into
(32:34):
our culture.
S2 (32:35):
Ultimately it's just trying to connect. It's just trying to
connect with people over something familiar.
S1 (32:40):
You know, it's belonging as well, which is something I think,
you know, many people are starved of. And when you're
with your mates and everyone's betting on a Saturday, like,
that's the place you belong, and it's a place where
you can draw, you know? Yeah, you can draw value
in the world from.
S2 (32:52):
While you lose.
S1 (32:53):
A.
S2 (32:54):
Staggering amount of value.
S1 (32:55):
While you really, really decimate your value. Yeah.
S2 (33:01):
Taking a quick moment away from Luke back in a moment.
To talk about reading for a sec. When you were
a kid, were books a part of it or was,
(33:22):
you know, was it just throwing footies around?
S1 (33:24):
No. Reading was a massive part of my childhood, are
a huge part of my childhood. I always read books,
and I've I've talked about this very openly for for
a while now. I was so ashamed around my book reading.
I loved reading fantasy books and I did it all
the time, like flat out as a kid, but always
at home, always in private, always just, yeah, always where
(33:46):
I was on my own, like with my mum. My
mum was a massive reader and her dad, actually my
grandfather was a massive reader as well. And that's where
I picked it up from because my mum was always reading.
So we, I was just reading with mum. Yeah, that's
just what you did.
S2 (34:01):
And when you say read with like you would read
the same book at the same time or. Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (34:05):
Well, I would make mum read my books because I
would read like a real good book, and then I'd
take it to mum and I'd be like, mum, like,
you have to read this book, like, this is such
a good book. And mum would read my books with
me and then we'd like, discuss them and we'd talk
about them. And to this day still, we still talk about,
like the books that her and I read growing up.
S2 (34:24):
I do love.
S1 (34:24):
That. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It was nice. It was nice.
It was nice. Me and my mum have a very
special relationship.
S2 (34:30):
That's, um. You know, it's lovely to hear you talk about,
you know, your mum and your stepdad like that.
S1 (34:35):
My mean mum. Mum read together. But outside of that, like,
I never would ever have let any of the boys
at school know or any like the footy boys. I
would never let anyone know that I was a big reader.
S2 (34:46):
When you talk about shame. But like I was a
card carrying member of the Queensland Roleplayer Society, I was
playing Dungeons and Dragons. Were you? Yeah. Oh yeah. Man. Yeah.
At 12 O, mate.
S1 (34:55):
Absolutely.
S2 (34:56):
Like when it was like, just nerd.
S1 (34:59):
Yeah, like that's so cool, nerds. See, I actually, like,
there's a part of me that I have to grieve. Like,
not having had that opportunity when I was a kid.
S2 (35:11):
What was it about fantasy, though, that, I mean, you know,
you're in the middle of western Queensland. It's it all
looks very similar out there. There's a lot of it
that looks the same.
S1 (35:21):
I think that that's why I loved fantasy so much
is because I was such a I had such a
vivid imagination. And I whenever I'd watch, you know, movies
and things like that, I would just always be living
in these different worlds in my head. My mum hates it.
She always says that I'm in la la land, and
(35:43):
I truly was, because I would just detach from reality
and I'd just be in a room, but I'd just
be elsewhere, just envisioning something or living a different life.
And that's why I, that's why I fell into fantasy,
is because when I was reading these fantasy books, I
actually felt a place of belonging, and I felt somewhere
where I felt normal, because when I was in the
(36:04):
real world, I was. I just kept being, I don't
I don't fit here like I'm not normal here. You're
growing up in in a hard western Queensland where everyone's,
you know, blue collar worker. And I just didn't see
parts of myself represented in the world around me. But
I saw those parts represented in books like the, the
magic that I sort of felt in my brain was
(36:25):
in books. So I just fell into that and it
just felt like a place of belonging.
S2 (36:29):
Have you gone through phases in your life where you
stopped reading all the time?
S1 (36:33):
Yeah, when I was a when I was addicted, when
I went through depression, when I went through addiction and
when I went through just like a lack of direction
and hopelessness. I wasn't reading. Wow. And. And what comes first,
the chicken or the egg? You know, um, but in
my recovery, like, reading was the, the one of the
(36:56):
key things that allowed me to reconnect with myself and
reintegrate all of the parts of me that I discarded.
S2 (37:04):
It is one. It is one of those habits that
if you fall out of it and now it's so
easy because there's just so much tiny little amounts of
dopamine distraction on a screen in front of you all
the time. And, you know, I don't know if you
reread something like I've read The Godfather, like five times.
S1 (37:20):
Yeah.
S2 (37:20):
Mario Puzo book. You pick it up and you're like, oh,
that's right. This fucking amazing.
S1 (37:24):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
S3 (37:26):
It's incredible. Yeah.
S2 (37:28):
Why did you decide like I'm just going to start doing,
you know, talking about it. I mean, there's, you know,
there's blokes who talk about mental health, there's blokes talk
about booze, blokes talk about footy. Not a lot of
blokes talk about reading.
S1 (37:42):
Nah, mate, not many blokes talk about reading, which is
one of the reasons I wanted to. Yeah. Um, and
this was a part of my journey, you know, back
to myself. I discarded, You know, there were many younger
versions of myself. I've done it. I did a lot
of inner child work.
S2 (38:00):
Ah.
S1 (38:01):
Um, a lot of ifs, if you know what ifs is.
S2 (38:04):
What's that stand for?
S1 (38:05):
Internal family systems, which is Richard. So, a psychologist in America,
Richard Schwartz. He's the father of IFS internal family systems.
S2 (38:14):
Maybe I've done it, and I hadn't realized what it is.
S1 (38:16):
It's inner child work. It's it's parts work. So it's
parts work. And and I've I've done a lot of it.
And parts work is just all the different inner versions
of yourself and all the different parts of yourself. And
I had to do a lot of that. And through
that journey was a lot of talking to younger versions
of myself and listening to what they needed and listened to.
(38:40):
You know, I.
S2 (38:40):
Have done.
S1 (38:41):
That. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you would have done it in
some form. I have. Just listening to what? Like the,
the parts of me that were in pain were younger
parts of me that weren't heard and were just, yeah,
were being pushed aside and having having gambling and alcohol
and drugs poured on top of them to keep them silent.
So I was reconnecting with them. And and during that journey,
(39:03):
you know, I rediscovered my reading and I and fantasy
books were not only a way for me to rediscover myself,
but they were also, as you know, like recovery is
really difficult. And that and that journey to use that
word again, that journey is so hard and just as painful,
(39:23):
just as painful as the descent. The ascent is just
as painful. A different kind of pain. Yeah. Um, but
during that, the fantasy books gave me the, like, the
reprieve and the respite from the world that I was
trying to like.
S2 (39:41):
Because it's hard. It is hard. It is hard work.
And I've done I have done the the work you're
talking about.
S1 (39:46):
And those parts of me, they just wanted to they
wanted to be recognized, and they wanted to be a
part of who I was as a person. And that's
why I started talking about books. Because. About fantasy books.
Because I just I'd spent 30 years of my life
having so much shame and secrecy around such a massive
part of who I who I am, and I'd never
(40:07):
been a part of a community, or I'd never had
any friends or wider, wider world where I could explore
the stories and the fantasy and the books that I loved.
And I just and I got to the point where
I was like, I'm not going to continue my life
for any longer without finding a community where I can
express this part of me. And that's why I started
talking about books, right?
S2 (40:29):
What did it feel like when the reaction that happened,
which was explosive, showed up?
S1 (40:33):
Yeah, mate, it was very anxiety inducing. Yeah. Because what
I pictured was I'm going to talk about fantasy books
and there'll be five people that will see the video.
And I'm like, I just wanted to. I was like,
no one will see this video or I won't. You know,
this won't be a massive reveal to the world. Like,
(40:55):
this can just be in baby steps and I'll just
find some close friends quietly. Yeah. And and then I
put my first video up and it had, it got
like 2 million views. And it was funny because I
actually had a number of messages from like, football blokes
sort of like taking the piss out of me about it. And, and,
(41:18):
and I was just and, and and in a way,
it was actually nice that I sort of just got
thrown in the deep end.
S2 (41:24):
Yeah.
S1 (41:25):
Because I just had to I was just like, well,
I don't have a choice now. Yeah. This is just
what it is. I have to confront this. Yeah. And
I have to face my fear. Yeah. And my fear
was I don't want people to know that I'm a nerd,
you know? And then I just got thrown in the
deep end, and it was like. You have to face
this now.
S2 (41:44):
I'm sorry that you went through what you went through. When?
S1 (41:48):
Oh.
S3 (41:48):
Don't be.
S2 (41:48):
After it kicked off and people went, well, if you
really like it, we can see an opportunity for you
and for us here. How about we both work together
on something and then people are mad at you for
getting opportunity they didn't have. And that I'm sorry that
I'm a bit annoyed that that happened to you. Oh,
you know.
S1 (42:06):
Mate, I, I don't think in in any way, shape
or form I hold any resentment or a grudge or
dislike about that because that's such a like I completely
empathise with the reaction that that received. The reaction came
(42:29):
with the information available. I know my whole story. I
know everything that went through. I know it all. People don't.
So their reaction was based off of like a limited
amount of information.
S2 (42:40):
It all happened very quickly.
S1 (42:42):
It happened quickly. In in your eyes.
S2 (42:44):
It happened quickly. Sorry. It happened quickly in my eyes.
Happened quickly in the public's eyes, but to. Go from
0 to 2 million very quickly to be thrown in
the deep end. And now. Oh. Would you like to
write some stuff?
S1 (42:57):
Hmm?
S2 (42:58):
Why did you say yes to it?
S1 (43:01):
I started writing my book in January, and when I
pitched to the publisher, I already I had the entire
trilogy planned out. So I'd already started writing my book
because I just said, I don't, I, I don't want
to get to my deathbed and look back and not
have written a book.
S2 (43:19):
Oh, yeah. Nice.
S1 (43:20):
So I just was I just had to do it
for myself.
S2 (43:22):
A good way to start. It was like like the
the only pressure you've got is your own. That's good.
S1 (43:26):
Well, yeah. And it was all part of like, um, I,
you would, you would know like, um, a future self exercise. So, like,
what do you want to be when you're 80.
S3 (43:36):
Mhm.
S1 (43:36):
And then you're and then like you reverse engineer that.
So that was a part of that process. And I
was like well when I'm 80 I want to be
a person who's written a book. Yeah. So I need
to start writing a book, because I'm not going to
start writing a book when I'm 79. So I started
writing the book, and then obviously the social stuff gained traction.
And I said to my manager, I said, I want
to be an author one day. And my manager said,
(43:59):
why wait? And I was like, well, that's a great question.
So yeah, so we reached out and I took all
I had 10,000 words written. I had an entire trilogy
planned out. I had characters, a character arcs, plot arcs,
themes for all the books, took it all to them,
pitched it all to them, and they said, we love it.
S2 (44:21):
You know, there's people who say, I've gone to therapy
and there's people who say, you know, I spoke to
someone the kind of stuff that you've been speaking about. Um,
it's clear that you've you've done some pretty serious work,
some pretty and rightly so, because it was life or death,
and I understand that. What would you say to to
(44:42):
men about why would they need to go to therapy?
Why would I want to ask my four year old
me anything?
S3 (44:49):
Oh.
S1 (44:51):
It's a great question. I think the way that I
would encourage or make it make it something that the
men then see it as, oh no, actually, I need
to do this. And this is a quote from James
Allen and says, man can't move within and stand still without.
(45:13):
And I think all men, you know, want to achieve something.
And if you want to achieve something in your outer life,
you must first have your inner world in order. If
you want to do big things in the world, if
you want to achieve, if you want to, if you
want to, if you want to achieve your worldly goals,
(45:37):
you must do inner work. that you cannot achieve in
the world if you have not got your inner world
in in order. And I would if you pitched to
men like that, like if you want a go of
whatever your goals are, are unachievable. Unless you get your your.
(45:59):
Yeah inside yourself. Right. That's never going to happen. And
when you and I would pitch it to men like that.
S2 (46:08):
We may not realize that we've got these unconscious choices
within us that keep these patterns repeating in our lives. Because,
as you mentioned, it's a survival mechanism, and we just
do what works or what has been working, but at
some point it stops working, and at some point it
starts to not be good. But we might not realize
we're in it. What would you say to people about
(46:31):
how they might check to see if they're where they
want to be, and if they've tried everything they're doing? Maybe.
Maybe it could be time for some other ideas.
S1 (46:44):
It's a hard question to answer for me because I
would answer it as the person that I am now,
but I know that the person I was when I
was wayward probably wouldn't probably would hear what I have
to say now and would disregard it and not listen
to it. So.
S2 (47:06):
So what would you say to that guy? What would
you say to 25 year old Luke?
S1 (47:14):
I would say, do you feel confused? Do you feel
in pain? Do you feel misery that you don't understand
and that you can't describe? And if your answer to
that is yes, then you need to seek help. And
you need to seek knowledge. And you need to seek
(47:37):
tools and awareness to be able to help with that.
That's that's the way that I would frame it to
that bloke, because I think that's the only way. Because
because that that person that that Luke, he wouldn't have understood.
Like I could give him the best advice in the world,
but he wasn't in a place or capable of understanding
(47:57):
that advice. All he knew, or the only answer that
he would have been able to give me, is that
I don't understand what I'm feeling. I don't know. I
can't say can you describe what's happening? And his answer
would be no. And if that's your answer, then then
you need help. And I would also say to anyone
(48:19):
who's in that place that no matter how long it
takes you or how hard it is, every bit of
it is worth it, because the amount of joy that
I feel today, like nothing that I felt before could
compare to the amount of joy and fulfillment that I
(48:39):
feel today.
S2 (48:42):
I started podcasting when I was still explaining to people
what it was and I would. I spent the first
four years podcasting, grabbing someone else's phone, downloading the app,
and then showing them how to listen to stuff. And
now it is this. Why? Why do you why podcasting
for you?
S1 (49:00):
Firstly, I love books. I love talking about books, and
anywhere that I can talk about books is a great
place for me. So podcasting is somewhere I can do that,
but I struggle with online. You get a comment section
and it's and it's really hard to talk in depth
and discuss like, you know, have the conversations that you
want to have in a, in a, in a comment section.
S2 (49:23):
Nobody ever has a comment conversation they want to have
in a comment section ever. So but not before fucking,
you know, Trent 7766655 guys goes, oh yeah, you probably
got the fucking sex, mate.
S4 (49:35):
Fuck you. Fuck off.
S1 (49:38):
So podcasts were is a medium where I actually will.
I want to create community and be able to like,
change people's lives and have long form conversations.
S2 (49:50):
A lot of reading though.
S1 (49:52):
Mate reading is like breathing to me.
S2 (49:55):
How many? So tell me about what time of day
does your reading happen?
S1 (49:58):
I'm pretty much all audiobooks at the moment. Yeah, because
in the tractor, you know, ten hours a day. So
I listen to audiobooks all day. And then I used
to read paperback at night. But now that I'm writing
my book, writing happens at night. Right. So it's all audiobooks, right? Mhm.
S2 (50:16):
I'm an aficionado of audiobook myself.
S1 (50:19):
I always say to people, audiobooks are the best way
to start reading. It is the best way to start reading.
If you don't like reading, listen audiobooks. The same part
of your brain lights up when you're listening to a
book is when you read. It's no different from reading,
and it will instill a love into you. And it
is a gateway to paperback.
S2 (50:38):
It's a yeah, it's a, it's a gateway drug to,
you know, stopping at an airport and going, oh yeah.
S1 (50:44):
100%.
S2 (50:46):
Yeah. I'm nonfiction in the day. Dystopian science fiction at night. Yeah.
S1 (50:51):
That is love.
S2 (50:52):
It. You know, the the the weirder and, like, real
super nerdy, physics based shit. Yeah, I'm fucking here for it. Well,
good luck, man. I want to say good luck for you.
You're gonna fucking smash it.
S1 (51:04):
Oh, thanks, man.
S2 (51:05):
You're gonna kill it. You're gonna.
S1 (51:06):
Kill. Really appreciate that.
S2 (51:07):
I am absolutely gonna kill it. Because again, I see
it in I. There's one woman focus group in my house,
and I see her more and more in the last.
I mean, she was a reader when I met her.
I met her when she was ten. She's always read,
but more and more, I see her very deliberately leaving
her phone somewhere else in the house and just out
(51:31):
the back reading a big, fat novel. Yeah, and it
just brings me such joy.
S1 (51:36):
100%.
S2 (51:36):
She's not alone in that. Which is also really good.
I'm so grateful you came in, man. Thank you so
much for making the time for us.
S1 (51:42):
Oh, good seeing you again, mate.
S2 (51:43):
It's good to see you, too. Thanks for coming, man.
S1 (51:45):
Thanks for having me, mate. Appreciate it.
S2 (51:50):
That was Luke Bateman. You can find his new podcast.
It's called In the Good Books where you found this podcast.
And if this podcast has helped you in any way,
if you thought, you know what, I know someone who'd
like to hear that, please share it with them. You
find that little arrow thing in the corner, or the
little hamburger, or the three dots, or whatever it is,
and what app you're using, and just share it over
to a mate, like it, subscribe it, follow it, rate it,
(52:11):
leave a comment. All these things really, really, really help us.
Come and see us at Story Club. Be lovely to
see you in the flesh. I'll sign your book. You
get it? So what now? What? You can get it
in the show notes and bring it along to the gig.
I'll be happy to sign your book for you. I'll
see you on the weekend if you can make the show.
If not, I'll see you Monday.
If you want to achieve something in your outer life,
you must first have your inner world in order. If
you want to do big things in the world, if
you want to achieve your worldly goals, you must do
inner work. You cannot achieve in the world if you
(00:23):
have not got your inner world in in order.
S2 (00:32):
G'day. Thanks for downloading the show. This is better than yesterday.
Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day
to day better than yesterday. Every single episode since 2013.
Every week since then. My name is Joshua Ginsberg. Thank
you so much for being here. Got a question for you.
What did you love to do as a kid that
you don't really do anymore? Do you ever think about it?
Do you miss it when it goes a little quiet
(00:54):
in your in between stuff, does a part of you feel,
I don't know, a bit empty because that thing that
you love isn't a part of who you are anymore. Well,
in the case of an x40 player, you might think
that would be the game of footy. But in the
case of my guest today, it wasn't. It was reading
specifically reading the genre of fantasy books, allowing this back
(01:17):
into his life, reintegrating it, recognising that little kid who
loved it that was still a part of who he was,
that came at a really important time in his life
and it made all the difference. My guest today is
Luke Bateman. He's an ex NRL player who used to
play for Canberra Raiders. He was once a bachelor and
he is, as you will hear, a self-confessed nerd. He's
(01:39):
an author, he's a lover of books, he's a book
talk star, he's a podcaster and he's got a new podcast.
It's called In the Good Books. Yes, indeed. In this
conversation he talks about growing up, kind of feeling a
bit ashamed about who he was and what he liked,
the highs and lows of a footy career that started
when he was very young, his struggle with a crippling
(01:59):
gambling addiction that came after that, and the very dark
places that led him to and how rediscovering, reading and
reintegrating his inner child into who he was helped lead
him towards a life in recovery. Luke speaks about his
beautiful relationship with his mum, about being open around his
love of reading, and how that made him a bit
(02:21):
of a sensation, and how he dealt with the controversy
that came with that, especially around the book deal that
came to him. It's a great conversation and we're going
to get right into it. Back in a moment. Thank
you so much for listening to the show. We're getting
(02:42):
to Luke Bateman in just a moment. This weekend's Story Club,
the 9th of November at the Factory Theatre in Marrickville.
Our lineup is almighty. Mark Humphries had to step out
for a sec, but Shane Jenek, aka Courtney Act will
be live on stage telling a true story, as well
as Harley Breen, Nina Oyama. You know her from deadlock.
Becker Melrose. She writes for Gruen. Steph Broadbridge, who wrote
(03:03):
Breakin the Musical and just came back from Edinburgh. These
people are all going to be on stage this Sunday night,
the 9th of November, Factory Theatre, Marrickville. There's a few
tickets left. Get around it. This one will sell out
and might be our last show for a little bit,
so do not miss it. Also, that's in the show
notes where the link is. You can also get my
new book. It's called So What Now what? My guest today,
(03:25):
Luke Bateman, is a fascinating man. You might need to
forget everything you thought you knew about him. Just a
heads up. This conversation does briefly touch on thoughts of suicide,
because that is where his addiction and things took him.
So if you do need a bit of support, if
those things, if this conversation brings anything up for you,
lifeline's always there. 13 1114. Enjoy. The deep and husky
(03:47):
tones are very muscly. Luke Bateman. Welcome. Welcome to to Sydney.
Where's home for you? At the moment.
S1 (03:58):
I'm out at Injune in western Queensland. It's oh it's
about an hour. An hour north of Roma.
S2 (04:08):
Delightful. Yeah. And Roma, for people who don't know, is
the site of where the Australian gas industry first started.
S1 (04:16):
And the gas industry in Roma is still very much
alive and kicking.
S2 (04:20):
There was a fire in Roma that was so enormous. Uh,
they they didn't know what the fuck they were doing.
They were just drilling for shit. And the bubbles started
coming out and like, oh, this is bad. And sure enough,
it caught fire. It burned for 45 days. It was
so huge. People were coming from New Zealand to come
and look at it as a tourist in the 1800s. Yeah,
he's fucking amazing what happened. What happens up in Injune?
S1 (04:42):
That's where I got my business up there. So you're.
S2 (04:45):
Still cutting.
S1 (04:45):
Wood? Yeah. Timber cutter. So I've got my logging business
up there.
S2 (04:48):
You're a lumberjack and you're okay?
S1 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah. So I'm cutting timber. where we're about two
hours north west of Injune.
S2 (04:55):
I. When I first met you doing Bachelor, um, I,
we did have some conversation about the Husqvarna, um, t5 t5. Yeah.
S1 (05:05):
The little the little household chainsaw.
S2 (05:07):
Oh, you're a small one.
S1 (05:08):
Yeah, just a little one.
S2 (05:10):
When you've got a. But then you broke my heart
a bit. He says no, we don't, we don't really
do anything with chainsaws anymore. It's like all big machines.
S1 (05:16):
Yeah, yeah.
S2 (05:16):
Because it's much, much safer.
S1 (05:19):
Much more efficient.
S2 (05:20):
Was Wood Chopper. The Ekka ever in your future when
you were a kid?
S1 (05:24):
Nah. My my, um. My stepdad cut timber pretty much
like my whole childhood. Never, ever. Once was I like,
that's that's going to be like my career or I'll
be doing that one day. But that's how life work.
S2 (05:38):
It was just footy.
S1 (05:39):
Yeah. Yeah, it was just footy. Yeah, right. Focus on footy.
Like we always got told. It was always like when
I was a teenager and then even like early 20s,
I was like footy end one day and you need
to have a plan about what you're going to do. Yeah,
but I never had a plan. Like, I just, like,
I just never had a plan. No. So when footy
did end, and very unexpectedly for me, I was kind
(06:00):
of like, oh what now? And my, my stepdad was like,
I was pretty wayward at the time, but my stepdad
was like, mate, you're coming with me to work for me. And,
and I went out there working with him and like
it was home for me. So I loved it. And, um,
then started my own company, got my own contracts and
own machinery and went from there.
S2 (06:20):
Much like, um, you know, parts of the Northern Territory
and parts of South Australia are just these just hubs
of AFL talent. What is it about western Queensland? Because
some of the most all time players ever come from
exactly the part of the world that you come from.
What is it about western Queensland.
S1 (06:35):
In western Queensland? Every kid born there like you play
rugby league because that's that's the only option that you have.
You play rugby league or you don't play sport. So
I think every kid out there plays rugby league and
then admires the Queensland Origin team and wants to be
an origin player.
S2 (06:52):
Lockyer. Beetson all from out that way.
S1 (06:55):
Oh, there's been heaps. Well, if you talk not even,
just if you talk country Queensland in general. Unbelievable. It's
just like the honour list is a mile long.
S2 (07:04):
But that particular the kind of injune Roma particularly at that.
S1 (07:07):
That's Lockyer beaten. Ah there's someone else to Bateman one
of the greats.
S2 (07:15):
How old were you when you kind of realised I
might be better at this than other people?
S1 (07:20):
No, not. Not in an arrogant manner. No, no, no.
But like early on, probably like under ten. Really? Yeah.
S2 (07:29):
And then what does it feel like when you're, you're the,
you know, that kid, that great player. And then I
don't know, someone taps you on the shoulder and you
go to a, I don't know, a representative team or
an area team, and now you're playing with other people
of that standard. What's that feel like?
S1 (07:41):
I always question myself when you went to like, the
representative levels, because I was from the country, and then
you'd go to the representative levels, and they're all the
city kids and all the kids who'd done other things
and were in sort of like better competitions and high
quality competitions. And, and I always questioned myself and I
was like, oh, you know, do I really belong here?
(08:02):
Or was I just sort of like the best kid
from my area? Yeah.
S2 (08:06):
But then you, you know, you result, your results speak
for themselves.
S1 (08:10):
But then you'd play good footy and you'd be like, okay,
now I do belong here. Yeah.
S2 (08:14):
When you made your, um, first grade debut, how was it, Raiders,
that you went all the way down to? That's a
long way from Injune.
S1 (08:22):
Yeah.
S2 (08:23):
What was that like?
S1 (08:24):
I'd always obviously live with my family to that point,
and that was as a 17 year old. Like leaving
your family, moving interstate. Pretty, pretty big move. A pretty
tough ice. Like, I had a fair bit of homesickness
to begin with and found myself down in Canberra at
17 years old in a like a professional football environment.
S2 (08:40):
How do you deal with homesickness when you're 17?
S1 (08:43):
Not well mate, not well, you don't. I don't think
you deal with many things too well when you're 17.
S2 (08:48):
But particularly that there's all this pressure that you've got
on yourself, but also from people around you and you start, oh, shit,
you're like instantly, oh, it's men. Yeah, men. Men.
S1 (08:58):
Yeah.
S2 (08:59):
Everything on the line?
S1 (09:01):
Yeah.
S2 (09:01):
Who see you as. Are you coming to take my
spot like it's hardcore 100%.
S1 (09:07):
Yeah. It's a it's a ruthless environment.
S2 (09:10):
Was there anything off off field that was there to
support you?
S1 (09:13):
Oh, not really, mate, to be fair. Um, I'm. I mean,
the off field environment was pretty much like you just
you idolize, like, you know, you you're a young kid,
and you idolize the people that you're now sort of
training with at that. Like at that young age. I
wasn't playing with them yet. But you idolized like the
(09:35):
NRL players that you want to be one day and
then you sort of just time with them off field.
And I think like the off field culture of Of
the NRL is quite corrosive, like there was, you know,
it was drinking and gambling and that sort of stuff. And,
and you just sort of tied in with that behaviour.
S2 (09:53):
And it's doesn't seem abnormal because this is what we do.
S1 (09:58):
Is literally just normal. And I don't even think that
that's I don't think that that's like solely part of
the NRL. Like I've got mates who don't play football.
And the normal, you know, what you do in society is,
you know, on a weekend or whatever, you go to
the pub and you have a bet and you have
a drink and you get blown.
S2 (10:14):
And then I got, I got real lucky that I
didn't discover I didn't like, hey, there was no mobile phones,
there was no mobile gaming, but I didn't know what
the tab was until I was like 18. I was
on the dole.
S1 (10:28):
And.
S2 (10:29):
Worst thing ever happened won the first bet I put on.
Worst thing ever. Yeah. And I thought, this is great.
I can turn my dole check into, I can put
zeros on it. This is unreal. It didn't work out
that way. And I've figured out pretty quickly that it's
not worth me taking the bus up to Indooroopilly to,
you know, put, you know, 20 bucks across the bench
there at the tab.
S1 (10:50):
The tab.
S2 (10:50):
Cross my fingers and hope that race eight at Doomben
is going to pay out. There's other ways that I can.
In fact, I'm making money by not going there. Yeah, yeah. Um,
but that's not to say that me and me and
gambling apps haven't had. I mean, I'm sober, but once
I got sober, it's still there. That's still that. That thing,
that thing to go and escape to is still there.
(11:10):
I had a fucking before they made it illegal. Me
and internet poker were. Oh, boy, oh, man.
S1 (11:17):
Really like two.
S2 (11:18):
Tables at once. Like playing tournaments all fucking day.
S1 (11:20):
You got split screens.
S2 (11:22):
I did, I was it was the mid 2000, mate.
S1 (11:24):
Yeah.
S2 (11:24):
So like, I was fancy.
S1 (11:25):
I had two monitors. You were high tech.
S2 (11:27):
I got two monitors now, but.
S1 (11:28):
Everyone's.
S2 (11:28):
Got two monitors now because like, gaming. But like, back
then I had two. I had two monitors and this
one was the. That one was the porn one, but
this one.
S1 (11:34):
Was.
S2 (11:35):
This one was the gambling one. I was playing two
tournaments at the same time, like.
S1 (11:39):
Just.
S2 (11:39):
In the daytime.
S1 (11:40):
Yeah, it was.
S2 (11:41):
A bad time.
S1 (11:42):
Yeah.
S2 (11:42):
And, you know, when I think of. I talk about
it when I talk on stage, like.
S1 (11:45):
Yeah.
S2 (11:46):
It was just normal because that's just what I was doing.
If I talk about it now, I'm like, I'm like,
and it was US dollars. Like, what the fuck was I?
S1 (11:52):
You look back at someone like your behaviors and actions
and you go that it's just so insane.
S2 (11:58):
While you were playing, it was an injury. Could you
talk us through what what that week was like?
S1 (12:03):
Oh, well, yeah. I, um, at the start of 2019,
I did my knee. And it wasn't in the beginning
actually meant to be that big of an issue because
I tore my meniscus and it was sort of like
they were like, oh, it'd be six weeks and you'll
be back.
S2 (12:20):
Was it a training or a tackle?
S1 (12:22):
Uh, playing footy in a tackle? Yeah, I just like twisted.
And then in the rehab it was mismanaged. And I
actually ended up with a, like, a fractured bone. Oh, yeah.
So the because it was bone on bone in my
knee where the, where it was compounding it like fractured.
S2 (12:40):
Fractured after the initial injury?
S1 (12:42):
Yeah. After the initial injury. So then that was pretty
much they were just like, mate, this is like that's
six months. Pretty like nothing. That's like your season's done.
And that was the I was off contract that year.
And obviously I had other issues going on outside of
football as well. Like a bad place, bad place personally.
(13:02):
And then my career was falling apart as well. And
it was tough, mate, like it was. It was really
tough and then got to the end of got through that,
got to the end of my contract at the end
of 2019 and signed a one year deal for like
an absolute pittance for 2020. And I was like, okay,
I'll do my rehab, get back to playing footy and
(13:25):
give it another go. And then Covid hit and Covid
shut everything down and I just had to accept the
fact I, I was just like, well, this, this is,
this is it for me. Like I need to go
and earn some money.
S2 (13:37):
I mean, I know this experience from when I had
all the hip surgery and stuff getting told by my physio,
I'll never forget it was on Macquarie Street. He was
standing between me and, um, the botanical gardens and I
could see the gardens behind him and he's telling me
he goes, yeah, you've got fe and osteoarthritis. You're going
to have to stop running. And I running was my identity.
(14:00):
That was it. I was a runner. That is what
I did every day. And and he's like, are you
alright man? He even held out, held me because he said,
I thought you were going to fall over. Yeah, yeah.
I felt the floor drop out from under me. Yeah.
What's it like when this thing that you've only wanted
to do since you were under ten? Under six suddenly gone?
S1 (14:22):
Yeah. Uh, it's it's difficult when you draw your value
in the world from, you know, what you do, and
then that's taken away from you. Then you have to.
Then you question yourself and you go, well, who am I? Like,
where do I belong? Who am I? What place do
I have in the world? If I'm not a NRL player,
(14:44):
then who? Who is Luke Bateman? Who is Luke Bateman?
And I was faced with that like that question very
quickly and very unexpectedly. And it also happened in a
time in my life where, as I said, like personally,
things weren't well, my career had just ended out of
the blue. It was a tough it was a tough,
tough period of life.
S2 (15:05):
Were you in contact with your family? Were they aware
of how things were?
S1 (15:09):
My mum was sort of the one who knew everything
that was going on, and I kept telling her, like,
I was like, you can't tell my stepfather. You can't
tell Donny because I didn't want him to know because I,
I felt so much shame and embarrassment around it. I
was like, you can't tell him. And but he he
knew bits and pieces. And then it got to the
(15:30):
point where he had to like he found out about
all of it. Yeah.
S2 (15:34):
And so what, you're like 26 or 26.
S1 (15:36):
Yeah. 2026. Yeah.
S2 (15:39):
Surely you had an idea of what what would happen
if something didn't change.
S1 (15:43):
I was at the end of the tracks and I
got to the point. I said, it's this goes one
of two ways, and I either end up with me
in a coffin or I have to change my life.
Like that's the that is literally the only two options
that I have left ahead. Yeah.
S2 (16:00):
And I having been in that position myself, unfortunately, more
than once. One of them takes a shit load of work.
S1 (16:12):
It's hard because when you're not in that space and
you look at that, you're like, well, that is an
easy choice. And it's very clear. But when you're in
that place, yeah, you're bereft of hope. It truly like the,
the other choice is, is very appealing. Yeah. is really
(16:33):
appealing because you're like, well, there's like there is no hope.
And going that way is a lot of pain, a
lot of suffering, and who even knows if it's possible
or what that looks like. Whereas I know what this
looks like and it is there's no pain there and
there's no suffering there, you know.
S2 (16:50):
Yeah, you're describing it very, very, very.
S1 (16:52):
And and.
S2 (16:53):
Which is a lie. Let's be clear. That's a lie.
S1 (16:55):
Yeah.
S2 (16:55):
Sorry. That's what your brain's convincing you.
S1 (16:57):
In the moment. Yes, yes, yes. That's actually. No, no,
that's not reality.
S2 (17:00):
It's not reality at all.
S1 (17:01):
But this is what.
S2 (17:02):
This is how.
S1 (17:03):
That's what you're like. That's what your thoughts and that's
what you're convincing yourself of. Yeah. You know, you still
have a sense of reality to a degree. Yeah. And that,
you know, I was like, well, that's not appealing because
even though that's easier and that doesn't have pain, like
it still isn't what I want. Yeah. So I had
to make the tough decision to, to go the other way.
S2 (17:23):
I found out a, a therapist told me the word
for it. It's called surcease. It's a very old word,
but it means me, success means, um, I. I don't
want to die. Um, but I can't stand another day
alive like this.
S1 (17:39):
Oh, that's very apt.
S2 (17:42):
And that's the word very. That's the word that describes it. So. So.
S1 (17:46):
Yeah, that's that's. Yeah. That's nail on the head. That's it. Yeah.
S2 (17:49):
That's it. And in that point you have it's unfortunate
because our brain tries to convince us to make a
take make a permanent solution or find a permanent solution
to what's a temporary problem. We are as you mentioned,
something happens to our perception, a perception of time. And
we're unable to picture a time when it won't be
(18:11):
like this. As far as we're concerned, this is how
it's going to be forever. Yeah, forever. In that moment
when when it was happening to me, I knew enough
because I, you know, gotten sober. I knew enough to know, oh,
my brain's starting to do this. I need to just
pick up the phone, check my thoughts for someone else's brain.
What did you do in that in those moments.
S1 (18:31):
I drove to my mum, so I drove to my
mum's place. I walked in and I broke down crying
and I said, mum, look, I need to go to rehab. Like,
I just that was the only thing left to me.
I was like, I like, I have to go to rehab. Yeah. Um,
because I resisted it at that point. I'd been resisting
it for a long time, and I just, I just. Yeah,
because I was like, this is the only thing I
(18:53):
have left.
S2 (18:54):
How did you even know what it was? I mean, I,
I had an idea about these places, but I didn't
know that. I didn't know what they were, where they were,
how they existed, how you got in.
S1 (19:02):
I had no idea. My my mum had done a
lot of research on it. Yeah. So my mum had
done a lot of research because she was the one
she kept saying to me, she's like, look, I want
you to do this, Luke. I want you to do this.
And every time she would tell me, I just would resist.
And I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Like
I'm not doing that. And then it just got to
the point where I, I just like, nah, okay, I'm
doing it. Yeah. Um, let's like, let's work out together
(19:22):
how this happened. So she already she already had a
bit of information on her and then together we made
a choice.
S2 (19:29):
Would you do, like 30 days, 90 days.
S1 (19:31):
30 days.
S2 (19:32):
30.
S1 (19:32):
Days, 30 days? Yeah, yeah.
S2 (19:33):
And for people who wonder, like, what's that about? Like
what goes on? What was your biggest misconceptions about rehab?
S1 (19:40):
Oh, my. Um, I, I, I don't think I was,
I wasn't resistant to rehab itself. I was resistant to
being a person who went to rehab. I was resistant
to the shame or admit, like, the admitting that I
(20:02):
was at that level. You know.
S2 (20:04):
Self-stigma.
S1 (20:04):
Is way worse.
S2 (20:05):
Than any stigma. I give a fuck what anyone says.
You know, I'll say I've had psychosis. I don't give
a shit. Saying that because nothing you can say to
me is worse than the shit I feel about myself.
I'll fucking tell anybody. Yeah. Um, but I've done that.
Like I didn't want to when I was first offered
the meds. I didn't want to take them because I
didn't want to be the kind of person that needed
to take them.
S1 (20:25):
Exactly.
S2 (20:25):
All right. That was the. I didn't want to get
the help, because I didn't want to be the kind.
S1 (20:29):
Of person who needed to get needed help. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
S2 (20:31):
Fucking I am.
S1 (20:33):
Yeah. And I am too. And I am too. But yeah, that's.
S2 (20:37):
A hard one to get through that one.
S1 (20:38):
It is man. That's that's like that's your ego. That's
your ego being a barrier. And that is such a
like and that and that happens every single day in
so many different avenues. But I went to rehab, and
my rehab experience was obviously like it was a bit
of a whirlwind, but I went to a detox clinic,
so I was in the detox clinic with, um, like
(21:00):
alcoholics and drug addicts who were day one of coming
off of like heavy drug use. And it was eye
opening to say the least. Yeah. But I was like
the best thing for me. I was in there with
with these people who were, you know, heroin and meth addicts.
(21:21):
And it was just humbled me because I looked at
them and I was like, you're my peer. Like you
are a fellow of mine. I am one of you.
And to me, that was one of the best things
that ever happened to me. That humbled me to the
point where before that, I would have always thought myself
(21:44):
above that. And then to see that person as my peer,
as my equal. Yeah, that was such a formative moment
in me as a person.
S2 (21:54):
My, my, my guy says to me, he says, you
got to find humility before humility finds you. And and
I still I still have to seek it. Because that
ego that got me into all the trouble still around.
It's not still in there. And and I still have
to arm wrestle it like Sylvester Stallone movie every day.
S1 (22:14):
Every every, every every minute.
S2 (22:15):
Sometimes better.
S1 (22:16):
Than others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's so true though
you do. Because Of humility. Humility found me. And when
humility finds you. It's. It's not kind to you.
S2 (22:28):
So how does it how do you balance the ego
thing with showing up on a TV show like Bachelor?
How does the how do you hold on to that
ego in that environment where everyone's. And for the case
for the show, it must be very difficult because for
the show to work, we have to turn that person into, oh.
S1 (22:48):
We have to.
S2 (22:48):
We have to put them on a pedestal.
S1 (22:50):
Yeah, we.
S2 (22:51):
We look after their every need. We have someone around
who's there to get you a, you know, chewing gum.
You want soda water, you want some? Whatever you want.
Any time of day or night. Like, how do you
keep your feet on the ground in that situation?
S1 (23:04):
By the time The Bachelor, um, experience happened, I was pretty.
I was actually pretty grounded as a person. Uh, and
I and and it's really important to meet situations like
that with gratitude. Gratitude is a massive, massive thing for me.
I think gratitude is a really grounding, a really grounding practice.
(23:25):
So throughout that whole Bachelor experience, every day I kept
saying to myself, how lucky am I to be in
this place? I'll never get to do this again. Not
many people will ever get to do this experience. Like,
how lucky am I that I'm the person who gets
to do this experience? And I need to remind. I
did remind myself that every day and was just very,
(23:47):
as I said, just very glad to be there. Never,
never thought myself above anyone. Not above like the make
up artist. Not above the crew, not above the film
film crew, not above anybody. Um.
S2 (23:58):
It was freaking nuts. That one. The one in Melbourne.
I really liked the three batch version of it. I
thought it was really fun. Yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed.
S1 (24:07):
I have no experience in any other version.
S2 (24:10):
I really liked it because, um, it was our 11th
season of that one of Bachelor, and I had developed
quite a degree of trust with the EPs and the showrunners,
and because we did that whole part before, I'd bring
you guys in all the stuff of getting everybody to
(24:32):
talk about what happened that week used to happen in
individual interviews. Yeah. And because we were quite big survivor
fans and our director directed survivor, um, what if we
did the Rose Council? What if we made it like
at the end where JLP or Jenny is like, let's
give it a shot. So we tried it in the
Goldie and it was really good, but it's it's a lot.
(24:55):
They put a lot of trust in me to be
able to wrangle that. And you, there was a lot
of big personalities in that room. So I really enjoyed, um,
I like the, the dynamic.
S1 (25:07):
Of.
S2 (25:07):
Having, um.
S1 (25:08):
Yeah.
S2 (25:09):
Of having those.
S1 (25:10):
Of having three bugs.
S2 (25:10):
Yeah. It was actually pretty good.
S1 (25:12):
Yeah.
S2 (25:12):
Yeah, it was actually, it was actually pretty good.
S1 (25:14):
Um, it adds more layers for you.
S2 (25:16):
Hold as though.
S1 (25:18):
It was cold.
S2 (25:19):
Winter.
S1 (25:19):
In Melbourne.
S2 (25:20):
What was that?
S1 (25:22):
It was cold. And then they. And then we'd do
like the the pool dates. Excellent. Right, mate. And it's
it's two degrees. Like. Yeah. Jump! Take everything off. Jump
in the pool. Like what?
S2 (25:36):
What was it like when you watched it back? Because it's.
I know for me, it's. It's weird you didn't watch it.
S1 (25:41):
I didn't watch.
S2 (25:42):
It.
S1 (25:42):
You didn't watch it? Nah, nah, I didn't watch it.
I watched I watched the first episode and I watched
the last episode. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's it. Didn't watch
anything in between? Nah, I couldn't do it. I even
it's funny. Like, I even hate, like, I hate seeing
myself on a screen. I know that sounds ridiculous because, like,
(26:03):
I upload videos on social media all the time, but
I hate watching myself on a screen.
S2 (26:09):
Right.
S1 (26:10):
I actually don't know. I just it makes me cringe,
like I just cringe at myself.
S2 (26:17):
I do kind of remember that feeling. I found that
if I kind of looked at it from a place
of like, how can I look at it like game tape?
How can I look at it to improve? Um, over time,
it was it was easier.
S1 (26:28):
That's a good tip, actually.
S2 (26:29):
It was it was easier. I'm happy to.
S1 (26:32):
Yeah.
S2 (26:32):
Happy to chat to you about it. But I was
also doing so much of it. We were doing like
20 something hours a week of it.
S1 (26:37):
Yeah.
S2 (26:38):
So you got used to it pretty quick?
S1 (26:39):
Yeah.
S2 (26:39):
That's true. It wasn't just like 90s or a minute here. Yeah,
it was all the time. Yeah. All all all the time.
When you did get back up out out of rehab
and you got back, um, why were you able to
talk to your stepdad about that? Were you able to,
you know, jump over that? Because shame traps us, man.
Shame traps us in a place where we don't get treatment.
(27:00):
Shame traps isn't a place where we isolate from people
who are trying to help us. Shame makes us do
pretty dumb stuff on there.
S1 (27:09):
I actually think shame is one of the major issues
with men today. We as men have so much shame
as a culture, like we have so much shame around
so many things. And I think, you know, vulnerability and
openness are like really, really lacking in today's world because
everyone men try to live to characters and really hide
(27:34):
any weakness and vulnerability. And as you said, shame traps us.
And that was that was a massive issue for me
was the shame that I felt. And when I did
like when I, when I got like when I'd been
through everything and I'd got out of rehab, I, me
and my stepdad have talked about it multiple times. And
(27:54):
it's funny, he's he's old school and he's just an
old fellow from western Queensland. He grew up, he left
school in grade nine, worked on cattle properties, you know,
for sort of 20 or first, sort of 30, 40
years of his life before he went into logging. So
he's he's just always been in hard physical labor his
whole life, and is one of those men who like feelings.
(28:16):
What you just. Whatever happens, you just shove it down
and you get on with it. So he's, um, he's
a he's a great man and a very open man.
But he always, like he struggles to understand and he
struggles to he really struggles to empathize with the situation
because it's just so removed from anything that he's ever
(28:39):
experienced or been a part of. And it's funny when
you talk to him because you see his you see
him when you're talking about you see him struggling to
compute it. And he's just like, I just I just
never understood how he just couldn't stop. He just, you know,
and he's like, you just all you had to do
was just not do it. And, you know, and you're
just like, yeah, like you're not wrong. You're not wrong.
(29:01):
It's it's it's pretty simple. You just not do it. Yeah.
So it's funny but he does like, as I said
like he, he does try and and understand, but it's
funny just to. It's funny to see that that difference
in in culture and upbringing.
S2 (29:18):
And that's the thing that where education of the family
is so important when it comes to addiction. Um, just
helping people understand that, yeah, they can't not do it
because something has happened in their brain that for whatever reason,
it's now at a point where the choice they can
no longer make the choice, and they're not doing it
because they don't like you or they don't love you,
(29:39):
or they don't believe you when they know they're gonna die.
S1 (29:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2 (29:43):
They know they're going to lose everything. And even though
they know that, it's still the best option they have.
S1 (29:49):
Yeah.
S2 (29:50):
Because not doing it is so painful. Yeah. And so
bad that they will still do that thing. And a
lot of a lot of families don't don't get that. Yeah.
Which I understand.
S1 (30:01):
Comes back to how you, you know, neurochemistry works and
it's mother nature didn't put us here to thrive. Mother
nature put us here to survive. And when, like. And
when your brain. When your. You know, when your circuitry
says like. This is my survival mechanism. It overrides everything.
(30:23):
And even though that survival mechanism is what is, what
is killing you when your brain is like, this is
what keeps me, you know, keeps me alive. And that's
what it is. It's like, this is my coping mechanism.
This is my survival mechanism. I need to do this
to avoid, like the pain inside of me. That's what
I need to do to survive. That's what gets me
(30:43):
over it. It's like.
S2 (30:44):
Drinking.
S1 (30:44):
Water. Literally. Exactly. And it's just like your brain just overrides.
And no matter how much you're like, I don't want
to do this. I know this is real life. Your
brain just goes bad luck, buddy. We're doing that.
S2 (30:53):
And I love watching football. And I fucking hate when
those ads have like. And it's only men. It's like
you've got shit mates if they're not on mates, bed
with your mates. You know, I have good mates. If
you're not already in a chat with a fucking multi
with multi mates, you know, and it's always the guy
who's a loser by himself or he's, I've seen fucking
(31:16):
ads where guys are going into war together in colourful suits. Right. And,
and at the end.
S1 (31:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S2 (31:23):
Like how fucking vulnerable are these people. Like $25 billion to.
There was I think it was to April this year.
S1 (31:31):
Aussies are the biggest gambling losers per capita out of everywhere.
And I seen a stat the other day that said
something like we have 3% or 2% of the world's population,
and we have 50% of the world's poker machines. Oh man,
when you get to that point, and it's literally the
money and there's entire industries and cultures built on it,
(31:53):
how do you how do you how do you break
down institutions that have been literally built upon that? And
those institutions are now so large, you know, and that's
I said to you, you You know that is not
a gambling is not a rugby league issue. Gambling is
a cultural issue. Oh yeah. Yeah. I've had you know,
(32:14):
I have mates who are just plumbers and sparkies and
who have had the exact same issues as me. And
then you see, you go to the pub on a
weekend and on a Saturday. Who's the tab filled with?
It's filled with young blokes like, you know, 18 to 25,
18 to 30. They're packed out in pubs every Saturday
betting at the tab. It's just it is ingrained into
(32:34):
our culture.
S2 (32:35):
Ultimately it's just trying to connect. It's just trying to
connect with people over something familiar.
S1 (32:40):
You know, it's belonging as well, which is something I think,
you know, many people are starved of. And when you're
with your mates and everyone's betting on a Saturday, like,
that's the place you belong, and it's a place where
you can draw, you know? Yeah, you can draw value
in the world from.
S2 (32:52):
While you lose.
S1 (32:53):
A.
S2 (32:54):
Staggering amount of value.
S1 (32:55):
While you really, really decimate your value. Yeah.
S2 (33:01):
Taking a quick moment away from Luke back in a moment.
To talk about reading for a sec. When you were
a kid, were books a part of it or was,
(33:22):
you know, was it just throwing footies around?
S1 (33:24):
No. Reading was a massive part of my childhood, are
a huge part of my childhood. I always read books,
and I've I've talked about this very openly for for
a while now. I was so ashamed around my book reading.
I loved reading fantasy books and I did it all
the time, like flat out as a kid, but always
at home, always in private, always just, yeah, always where
(33:46):
I was on my own, like with my mum. My
mum was a massive reader and her dad, actually my
grandfather was a massive reader as well. And that's where
I picked it up from because my mum was always reading.
So we, I was just reading with mum. Yeah, that's
just what you did.
S2 (34:01):
And when you say read with like you would read
the same book at the same time or. Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (34:05):
Well, I would make mum read my books because I
would read like a real good book, and then I'd
take it to mum and I'd be like, mum, like,
you have to read this book, like, this is such
a good book. And mum would read my books with
me and then we'd like, discuss them and we'd talk
about them. And to this day still, we still talk about,
like the books that her and I read growing up.
S2 (34:24):
I do love.
S1 (34:24):
That. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It was nice. It was nice.
It was nice. Me and my mum have a very
special relationship.
S2 (34:30):
That's, um. You know, it's lovely to hear you talk about,
you know, your mum and your stepdad like that.
S1 (34:35):
My mean mum. Mum read together. But outside of that, like,
I never would ever have let any of the boys
at school know or any like the footy boys. I
would never let anyone know that I was a big reader.
S2 (34:46):
When you talk about shame. But like I was a
card carrying member of the Queensland Roleplayer Society, I was
playing Dungeons and Dragons. Were you? Yeah. Oh yeah. Man. Yeah.
At 12 O, mate.
S1 (34:55):
Absolutely.
S2 (34:56):
Like when it was like, just nerd.
S1 (34:59):
Yeah, like that's so cool, nerds. See, I actually, like,
there's a part of me that I have to grieve. Like,
not having had that opportunity when I was a kid.
S2 (35:11):
What was it about fantasy, though, that, I mean, you know,
you're in the middle of western Queensland. It's it all
looks very similar out there. There's a lot of it
that looks the same.
S1 (35:21):
I think that that's why I loved fantasy so much
is because I was such a I had such a
vivid imagination. And I whenever I'd watch, you know, movies
and things like that, I would just always be living
in these different worlds in my head. My mum hates it.
She always says that I'm in la la land, and
(35:43):
I truly was, because I would just detach from reality
and I'd just be in a room, but I'd just
be elsewhere, just envisioning something or living a different life.
And that's why I, that's why I fell into fantasy,
is because when I was reading these fantasy books, I
actually felt a place of belonging, and I felt somewhere
where I felt normal, because when I was in the
(36:04):
real world, I was. I just kept being, I don't
I don't fit here like I'm not normal here. You're
growing up in in a hard western Queensland where everyone's,
you know, blue collar worker. And I just didn't see
parts of myself represented in the world around me. But
I saw those parts represented in books like the, the
magic that I sort of felt in my brain was
(36:25):
in books. So I just fell into that and it
just felt like a place of belonging.
S2 (36:29):
Have you gone through phases in your life where you
stopped reading all the time?
S1 (36:33):
Yeah, when I was a when I was addicted, when
I went through depression, when I went through addiction and
when I went through just like a lack of direction
and hopelessness. I wasn't reading. Wow. And. And what comes first,
the chicken or the egg? You know, um, but in
my recovery, like, reading was the, the one of the
(36:56):
key things that allowed me to reconnect with myself and
reintegrate all of the parts of me that I discarded.
S2 (37:04):
It is one. It is one of those habits that
if you fall out of it and now it's so
easy because there's just so much tiny little amounts of
dopamine distraction on a screen in front of you all
the time. And, you know, I don't know if you
reread something like I've read The Godfather, like five times.
S1 (37:20):
Yeah.
S2 (37:20):
Mario Puzo book. You pick it up and you're like, oh,
that's right. This fucking amazing.
S1 (37:24):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
S3 (37:26):
It's incredible. Yeah.
S2 (37:28):
Why did you decide like I'm just going to start doing,
you know, talking about it. I mean, there's, you know,
there's blokes who talk about mental health, there's blokes talk
about booze, blokes talk about footy. Not a lot of
blokes talk about reading.
S1 (37:42):
Nah, mate, not many blokes talk about reading, which is
one of the reasons I wanted to. Yeah. Um, and
this was a part of my journey, you know, back
to myself. I discarded, You know, there were many younger
versions of myself. I've done it. I did a lot
of inner child work.
S2 (38:00):
Ah.
S1 (38:01):
Um, a lot of ifs, if you know what ifs is.
S2 (38:04):
What's that stand for?
S1 (38:05):
Internal family systems, which is Richard. So, a psychologist in America,
Richard Schwartz. He's the father of IFS internal family systems.
S2 (38:14):
Maybe I've done it, and I hadn't realized what it is.
S1 (38:16):
It's inner child work. It's it's parts work. So it's
parts work. And and I've I've done a lot of it.
And parts work is just all the different inner versions
of yourself and all the different parts of yourself. And
I had to do a lot of that. And through
that journey was a lot of talking to younger versions
of myself and listening to what they needed and listened to.
(38:40):
You know, I.
S2 (38:40):
Have done.
S1 (38:41):
That. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you would have done it in
some form. I have. Just listening to what? Like the,
the parts of me that were in pain were younger
parts of me that weren't heard and were just, yeah,
were being pushed aside and having having gambling and alcohol
and drugs poured on top of them to keep them silent.
So I was reconnecting with them. And and during that journey,
(39:03):
you know, I rediscovered my reading and I and fantasy
books were not only a way for me to rediscover myself,
but they were also, as you know, like recovery is
really difficult. And that and that journey to use that
word again, that journey is so hard and just as painful,
(39:23):
just as painful as the descent. The ascent is just
as painful. A different kind of pain. Yeah. Um, but
during that, the fantasy books gave me the, like, the
reprieve and the respite from the world that I was
trying to like.
S2 (39:41):
Because it's hard. It is hard. It is hard work.
And I've done I have done the the work you're
talking about.
S1 (39:46):
And those parts of me, they just wanted to they
wanted to be recognized, and they wanted to be a
part of who I was as a person. And that's
why I started talking about books. Because. About fantasy books.
Because I just I'd spent 30 years of my life
having so much shame and secrecy around such a massive
part of who I who I am, and I'd never
(40:07):
been a part of a community, or I'd never had
any friends or wider, wider world where I could explore
the stories and the fantasy and the books that I loved.
And I just and I got to the point where
I was like, I'm not going to continue my life
for any longer without finding a community where I can
express this part of me. And that's why I started
talking about books, right?
S2 (40:29):
What did it feel like when the reaction that happened,
which was explosive, showed up?
S1 (40:33):
Yeah, mate, it was very anxiety inducing. Yeah. Because what
I pictured was I'm going to talk about fantasy books
and there'll be five people that will see the video.
And I'm like, I just wanted to. I was like,
no one will see this video or I won't. You know,
this won't be a massive reveal to the world. Like,
(40:55):
this can just be in baby steps and I'll just
find some close friends quietly. Yeah. And and then I
put my first video up and it had, it got
like 2 million views. And it was funny because I
actually had a number of messages from like, football blokes
sort of like taking the piss out of me about it. And, and,
(41:18):
and I was just and, and and in a way,
it was actually nice that I sort of just got
thrown in the deep end.
S2 (41:24):
Yeah.
S1 (41:25):
Because I just had to I was just like, well,
I don't have a choice now. Yeah. This is just
what it is. I have to confront this. Yeah. And
I have to face my fear. Yeah. And my fear
was I don't want people to know that I'm a nerd,
you know? And then I just got thrown in the
deep end, and it was like. You have to face
this now.
S2 (41:44):
I'm sorry that you went through what you went through. When?
S1 (41:48):
Oh.
S3 (41:48):
Don't be.
S2 (41:48):
After it kicked off and people went, well, if you
really like it, we can see an opportunity for you
and for us here. How about we both work together
on something and then people are mad at you for
getting opportunity they didn't have. And that I'm sorry that
I'm a bit annoyed that that happened to you. Oh,
you know.
S1 (42:06):
Mate, I, I don't think in in any way, shape
or form I hold any resentment or a grudge or
dislike about that because that's such a like I completely
empathise with the reaction that that received. The reaction came
(42:29):
with the information available. I know my whole story. I
know everything that went through. I know it all. People don't.
So their reaction was based off of like a limited
amount of information.
S2 (42:40):
It all happened very quickly.
S1 (42:42):
It happened quickly. In in your eyes.
S2 (42:44):
It happened quickly. Sorry. It happened quickly in my eyes.
Happened quickly in the public's eyes, but to. Go from
0 to 2 million very quickly to be thrown in
the deep end. And now. Oh. Would you like to
write some stuff?
S1 (42:57):
Hmm?
S2 (42:58):
Why did you say yes to it?
S1 (43:01):
I started writing my book in January, and when I
pitched to the publisher, I already I had the entire
trilogy planned out. So I'd already started writing my book
because I just said, I don't, I, I don't want
to get to my deathbed and look back and not
have written a book.
S2 (43:19):
Oh, yeah. Nice.
S1 (43:20):
So I just was I just had to do it
for myself.
S2 (43:22):
A good way to start. It was like like the
the only pressure you've got is your own. That's good.
S1 (43:26):
Well, yeah. And it was all part of like, um, I,
you would, you would know like, um, a future self exercise. So, like,
what do you want to be when you're 80.
S3 (43:36):
Mhm.
S1 (43:36):
And then you're and then like you reverse engineer that.
So that was a part of that process. And I
was like well when I'm 80 I want to be
a person who's written a book. Yeah. So I need
to start writing a book, because I'm not going to
start writing a book when I'm 79. So I started
writing the book, and then obviously the social stuff gained traction.
And I said to my manager, I said, I want
to be an author one day. And my manager said,
(43:59):
why wait? And I was like, well, that's a great question.
So yeah, so we reached out and I took all
I had 10,000 words written. I had an entire trilogy
planned out. I had characters, a character arcs, plot arcs,
themes for all the books, took it all to them,
pitched it all to them, and they said, we love it.
S2 (44:21):
You know, there's people who say, I've gone to therapy
and there's people who say, you know, I spoke to
someone the kind of stuff that you've been speaking about. Um,
it's clear that you've you've done some pretty serious work,
some pretty and rightly so, because it was life or death,
and I understand that. What would you say to to
(44:42):
men about why would they need to go to therapy?
Why would I want to ask my four year old
me anything?
S3 (44:49):
Oh.
S1 (44:51):
It's a great question. I think the way that I
would encourage or make it make it something that the
men then see it as, oh no, actually, I need
to do this. And this is a quote from James
Allen and says, man can't move within and stand still without.
(45:13):
And I think all men, you know, want to achieve something.
And if you want to achieve something in your outer life,
you must first have your inner world in order. If
you want to do big things in the world, if
you want to achieve, if you want to, if you
want to, if you want to achieve your worldly goals,
(45:37):
you must do inner work. that you cannot achieve in
the world if you have not got your inner world
in in order. And I would if you pitched to
men like that, like if you want a go of
whatever your goals are, are unachievable. Unless you get your your.
(45:59):
Yeah inside yourself. Right. That's never going to happen. And
when you and I would pitch it to men like that.
S2 (46:08):
We may not realize that we've got these unconscious choices
within us that keep these patterns repeating in our lives. Because,
as you mentioned, it's a survival mechanism, and we just
do what works or what has been working, but at
some point it stops working, and at some point it
starts to not be good. But we might not realize
we're in it. What would you say to people about
(46:31):
how they might check to see if they're where they
want to be, and if they've tried everything they're doing? Maybe.
Maybe it could be time for some other ideas.
S1 (46:44):
It's a hard question to answer for me because I
would answer it as the person that I am now,
but I know that the person I was when I
was wayward probably wouldn't probably would hear what I have
to say now and would disregard it and not listen
to it. So.
S2 (47:06):
So what would you say to that guy? What would
you say to 25 year old Luke?
S1 (47:14):
I would say, do you feel confused? Do you feel
in pain? Do you feel misery that you don't understand
and that you can't describe? And if your answer to
that is yes, then you need to seek help. And
you need to seek knowledge. And you need to seek
(47:37):
tools and awareness to be able to help with that.
That's that's the way that I would frame it to
that bloke, because I think that's the only way. Because
because that that person that that Luke, he wouldn't have understood.
Like I could give him the best advice in the world,
but he wasn't in a place or capable of understanding
(47:57):
that advice. All he knew, or the only answer that
he would have been able to give me, is that
I don't understand what I'm feeling. I don't know. I
can't say can you describe what's happening? And his answer
would be no. And if that's your answer, then then
you need help. And I would also say to anyone
(48:19):
who's in that place that no matter how long it
takes you or how hard it is, every bit of
it is worth it, because the amount of joy that
I feel today, like nothing that I felt before could
compare to the amount of joy and fulfillment that I
(48:39):
feel today.
S2 (48:42):
I started podcasting when I was still explaining to people
what it was and I would. I spent the first
four years podcasting, grabbing someone else's phone, downloading the app,
and then showing them how to listen to stuff. And
now it is this. Why? Why do you why podcasting
for you?
S1 (49:00):
Firstly, I love books. I love talking about books, and
anywhere that I can talk about books is a great
place for me. So podcasting is somewhere I can do that,
but I struggle with online. You get a comment section
and it's and it's really hard to talk in depth
and discuss like, you know, have the conversations that you
want to have in a, in a, in a comment section.
S2 (49:23):
Nobody ever has a comment conversation they want to have
in a comment section ever. So but not before fucking,
you know, Trent 7766655 guys goes, oh yeah, you probably
got the fucking sex, mate.
S4 (49:35):
Fuck you. Fuck off.
S1 (49:38):
So podcasts were is a medium where I actually will.
I want to create community and be able to like,
change people's lives and have long form conversations.
S2 (49:50):
A lot of reading though.
S1 (49:52):
Mate reading is like breathing to me.
S2 (49:55):
How many? So tell me about what time of day
does your reading happen?
S1 (49:58):
I'm pretty much all audiobooks at the moment. Yeah, because
in the tractor, you know, ten hours a day. So
I listen to audiobooks all day. And then I used
to read paperback at night. But now that I'm writing
my book, writing happens at night. Right. So it's all audiobooks, right? Mhm.
S2 (50:16):
I'm an aficionado of audiobook myself.
S1 (50:19):
I always say to people, audiobooks are the best way
to start reading. It is the best way to start reading.
If you don't like reading, listen audiobooks. The same part
of your brain lights up when you're listening to a
book is when you read. It's no different from reading,
and it will instill a love into you. And it
is a gateway to paperback.
S2 (50:38):
It's a yeah, it's a, it's a gateway drug to,
you know, stopping at an airport and going, oh yeah.
S1 (50:44):
100%.
S2 (50:46):
Yeah. I'm nonfiction in the day. Dystopian science fiction at night. Yeah.
S1 (50:51):
That is love.
S2 (50:52):
It. You know, the the the weirder and, like, real
super nerdy, physics based shit. Yeah, I'm fucking here for it. Well,
good luck, man. I want to say good luck for you.
You're gonna fucking smash it.
S1 (51:04):
Oh, thanks, man.
S2 (51:05):
You're gonna kill it. You're gonna.
S1 (51:06):
Kill. Really appreciate that.
S2 (51:07):
I am absolutely gonna kill it. Because again, I see
it in I. There's one woman focus group in my house,
and I see her more and more in the last.
I mean, she was a reader when I met her.
I met her when she was ten. She's always read,
but more and more, I see her very deliberately leaving
her phone somewhere else in the house and just out
(51:31):
the back reading a big, fat novel. Yeah, and it
just brings me such joy.
S1 (51:36):
100%.
S2 (51:36):
She's not alone in that. Which is also really good.
I'm so grateful you came in, man. Thank you so
much for making the time for us.
S1 (51:42):
Oh, good seeing you again, mate.
S2 (51:43):
It's good to see you, too. Thanks for coming, man.
S1 (51:45):
Thanks for having me, mate. Appreciate it.
S2 (51:50):
That was Luke Bateman. You can find his new podcast.
It's called In the Good Books where you found this podcast.
And if this podcast has helped you in any way,
if you thought, you know what, I know someone who'd
like to hear that, please share it with them. You
find that little arrow thing in the corner, or the
little hamburger, or the three dots, or whatever it is,
and what app you're using, and just share it over
to a mate, like it, subscribe it, follow it, rate it,
(52:11):
leave a comment. All these things really, really, really help us.
Come and see us at Story Club. Be lovely to
see you in the flesh. I'll sign your book. You
get it? So what now? What? You can get it
in the show notes and bring it along to the gig.
I'll be happy to sign your book for you. I'll
see you on the weekend if you can make the show.
If not, I'll see you Monday.
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