How Shane Jenek (aka. Courtney Act) Authored an Answer to Division, Defamation and Moral Panic

There are many things that could rightly make Shane Jenek furious - from social media algorithms platforming 'right wing talking points' intended to divide, to the continuing moral panic around drag queen story time, to outright personal attacks on his character. But instead, Shane is choosing a different response - namely, one of kindness and storytelling. He tells Osher why he believes this is actually the most effective course, along with:

• How his relationship to his alter ego Courtney Act has changed over the years
• How gender has always been a spectrum, and why that's liberating
• Why he chose to write a children's book

Check out Shane's book Confetti and the Rainbow Garden

For the Story Club Youtube and Osher's book So What, Now What? head here

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:00):
And that's the thing, right? You got to meet fear
with love. And I just want to participate in the
conversation more because I think the detractors would rather me
be quiet, be silent, go away, not participate. That's the
whole point of that moral panic. And I just thought, no,
I'm in a I'm going to be here. I'm going
to stand strong. And I want to, I want to,
you know, think of all the people who have been

(00:22):
kind to me over the years and bring those forward
with me into everything I do.

S2 (00:31):
Today, thanks so much for listening to the show. This
is better than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations to
help your day to day be better than it was yesterday.
Every single week since 2013. My name is Joshua Ginsburg.
Thank you so much for being here. I've got a
question for you. How would I think carefully? How would
you respond if someone said something about you that was really,

(00:52):
really disrespectful? I mean, super disrespectful in a public place.
And I'm not talking like school pickup or at the
PNC or at footy training. I'm talking like on a
national level in Parliament. It made the news untrue and
completely disrespectful. Like what reaction would be appropriate? A witty retort,

(01:16):
full blown vengeance. In the case of my guest today,
their response was a little different. Their response was to
write a children's book. Today on the show, we're joined
once again by the brilliant Shane Jenek, who you may
know better as TV personality, performer, singer, drag sensation and

(01:36):
author Courtney Act. Three years ago, you see, uh, the
Australian Liberal senator. And for people overseas, Liberal is not liberal.
It's the conservative side of things. The Australian Liberal senator,
Alex Antic, held up a picture in the Australian Parliament
with a picture. It was a picture of Courtney Act
reading a children's book on the kids TV show playschool,

(01:57):
and asked a question of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and
national broadcaster asked why is the ABC grooming children with
this sort of adult content? Yeah. Not good. Shane's reply
was a brilliantly part. One of Shane's reply was a
brilliantly thought out op ed piece which published in the

(02:20):
Sydney Morning Herald. It bears quoting because there's two bits
of it which are just brilliant, Shane wrote as Courtney.
The byline is Courtney Act, and I quote Antic, referring
to my story time as grooming as a political tactic
to weaponise the protection of children to win political points.
It's ripped straight from the right wing American culture war playbook.

(02:41):
I normally wouldn't respond and give this fringe opinion more oxygen,
but I've seen this tactic deployed increasingly in Australia and
it needs to be debunked. And then Courtney goes on
to end the op ed with this delightful closer. And
I quote again, we help all kids flourish and stay
safe by sharing more types of stories, not fewer, when

(03:01):
we offer them as many options as possible. They find
what authentically fits and fine tune it from there. It's
five years since Marriage Equality passed its Trans Awareness Week
and the largest pride celebration in the world. Sydney Pride
is coming to town in February, so it bears repeating.
We're here. We're queer. Get used to it. And on
that note, I'm off to write a children's book and

(03:24):
the article ends. So it was with enormous joy. A
couple of weeks back, I was putting Wolfgang to bed.
I got to read him confetti and the Rainbow Garden,
the new kids book from Shane Jenek, aka Courtney Act.
So in this conversation, you'll hear plenty more about Shane's
reason and inspiration for writing that book, his reactions to
that particular incident, as well as Shane's thoughts on the

(03:46):
real damage that social media algorithms are causing our community,
the controversies around drag queen story time and gender identity
how his relationship to Courtney has changed over the years.
How it's going now, the importance of trying to empathise
with others even when they have viewpoints that are vastly
different to our own. How he's choosing to live with
kindness before anything else. Plus, the most important question we

(04:08):
should ask ourselves before trying to change anybody's mind, which
I'll get to on the other side of this break,
because I do need to play some ads before we
get to the interview. Back in a moment. Thanks so
much for listening to the show today. Shane Jenek is
on the show, a delightful, deeply wise human that I've

(04:30):
had the pleasure to know for coming on 30 years
by now. In this conversation, Shane dropped some magnificent wisdom.
But this particular nugget is so good that the important
question we need to ask any of us need to
ask ourselves. Before trying to change someone's mind. We have
to ask, would we rather be right or effective? Now,
the way he explains this is so wonderful! I can't

(04:52):
wait for you to hear it. Enjoy this conversation with
Shane Jenek. And how are you? Are you alright?

S1 (05:00):
Yeah. I'm good.

S2 (05:01):
It's good to see you. It's always delightful to see
you getting ready for this. Um, Adam was exploring the
first time that you came on the show 11 years ago.
Now people still talk to me about that episode.

S1 (05:14):
I remember that. I don't know whether was I. Hang on.
We were in Los Angeles. It was my apartment in Venice. Yeah.

S2 (05:22):
In Venice. Yeah.

S1 (05:22):
Okay, good. Yeah. I thought that was true.

S2 (05:25):
Yeah, yeah. People still talk to me.

S1 (05:26):
Was there a piano?

S2 (05:27):
Yes, yes there.

S1 (05:29):
Was. Why is that? That's my memory.

S2 (05:31):
Yeah, there was a piano. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I lived
alone and I had time to pursue my, you know,
single man pursuits.

S1 (05:37):
Nice. How is the piano playing going?

S2 (05:40):
Well, uh.

S1 (05:42):
You're not a single man anymore.

S2 (05:43):
No, gratefully, I don't get to sit in noodle quite
as much as I used to, but my son's only
recently taken up keyboards, so.

S1 (05:48):
Oh, okay. That's fun.

S2 (05:50):
There's a fine line between doing stuff in front of
him that he can't do yet and not making him
feel like, you know, and just kind of slowly.

S1 (05:58):
Parenting is so complex, isn't it?

S2 (06:01):
Yeah. And no one gets an instruction manual.

S1 (06:04):
And no one gets it right.

S2 (06:05):
No one gets it right. Ever.

S1 (06:07):
Yeah.

S2 (06:08):
And what does Maggie Dent say? If you can get
to 30%, that's good enough.

S1 (06:11):
Wow. Okay.

S2 (06:12):
And that's pretty much it.

S1 (06:13):
Okay, that's an interesting bar because I often think of
like percentages in areas of my life in general. I'm
like if if my motivation for this is 51%, um,
authentic and noble, then the 49% that is superficial and, um,
money driven or vanity driven is also fine. I'm just

(06:37):
trying to get to 51%.

S2 (06:38):
That's all you really need.

S1 (06:39):
30% is the the parenting one.

S2 (06:41):
But this is where kids books really come in handy.
Kids books come in handy because it's a way to
communicate parenting stories across family units, which otherwise we might
not get. And get new ideas about parenting. Some of
them are. I've read a lot of kids books, and
because I started with kind of young adult because Georgia

(07:05):
was ten when I met her, and so I read
a lot of that kind of stuff. And then we regressed.

S1 (07:10):
To kids.

S2 (07:10):
Books, to the like 30 words, one a word, a page.

S1 (07:15):
And so if you're an author, the 30 word books, that's.

S2 (07:19):
Very hard to.

S1 (07:19):
Do return on.

S2 (07:20):
It's hard to.

S1 (07:21):
Do. It's hard to do.

S2 (07:22):
Very hard to.

S1 (07:22):
Do.

S2 (07:23):
As you would have known. Writing a kid's.

S1 (07:24):
Book. Do you know what writing a kids book compared
to writing a memoir? Um, writing a memoir took years
and a lot of emotional, um, excavating. But the kids book,
once I had the idea like, that's the hard part
is like, what is the idea? And what's like the,
the twist? Um, and then it kind of just came

(07:47):
out in an afternoon, which was nice and then was refined, obviously.

S2 (07:50):
Yeah. Do you remember a kids book, um, from when
you were young that your parents kind of. Because there's, there's,
there's kids books, which is like. And bear in mind,
I when mom died, we went through a bunch of
her stuff. And there was I remember reading these books
and I pick it up. I'm like, there's no fucking
way I can read that to you. Because, like, everyone's
getting chopped up and killed some of the older stories.

(08:11):
Oh my God, the children get eaten and and people
get shot and like, it's fucked up some of what
we read to kids. Wow. But there were some kids
books that I remember. My parents, my mum particularly would
read it again and again and again and again. And
the ones, they've got parables in them. Right. It's the lessons, right?
Do you remember, like a book from when you were
young that your parents read to you?

S1 (08:31):
I remember my grade three teacher, Mr. Halliday. He was
the person that, like, sparked us. He was like that
great teacher that hopefully every kid gets at least one
in their 12 years.

S2 (08:45):
If you're lucky. Yeah, and that's a mate. You only
need one.

S1 (08:47):
Yeah, yeah. Um, and mine was in grade three, actually.
Grade one. Mrs. Parsons was pretty good, too. Um, but
the the he would read us, like, Roald Dahl books,
like The Twits and James and the Giant Peach. Um,
and I remember that very fondly. I remember, like, loving
Animalia and, um, 11th hour, which Graeme Base, who's Australian.

S2 (09:08):
Very.

S1 (09:09):
Didn't know that.

S2 (09:10):
Extraordinary.

S1 (09:11):
Um, and I was just talking to a friend the
other day, the lovely Tim Duggan, and he was saying,
because I was like, God, isn't it wild that you'd
have Animalia and 11th hour, huge successes? And that would
be that's all you do. Surely you'd keep pumping them
out forever. And then I googled it, and there was
an infinite supply of books by Graeme Base.

S2 (09:31):
Yeah, they're doing okay.

S1 (09:32):
Yeah, they're doing okay.

S2 (09:33):
They're doing okay. That scholastic thing, that is quite the racket. Yeah,
yeah yeah, yeah. I think Andrew has has used credit
to buy a house in some time.

S1 (09:41):
Did do. Wait, What?

S2 (09:42):
Bro, aren't. I was like. This is called him out.

S1 (09:46):
Oh.

S2 (09:47):
Yeah. I read a lot. Hey, I'm interested to know
what was it about that particular teacher? The grade three
teacher that changed things for you?

S1 (09:59):
I think he was really passionate about books and reading. Like,
maybe grade three is the age where you can sit.
I'm sure you can do that in grade one. But like,
he would sit us all down, he would crack open, uh,
James and the Giant Peach, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
And he would sit and read it to the class,

(10:20):
and I think, well, those stories and that, um, maybe
that was the first time I'd been read a. Do
you call that a novel? Um, yeah. Yeah. So, like
that idea of being immersed in a long form world, um,
and then the, the, the words then conjuring my imagination

(10:42):
and the pictures that got to be built inside my head.
Maybe that was the first time that that had happened, right?
I don't know.

S2 (10:50):
I think I remember those moments. Yeah. Uh, again, Roald
Dahl again, wanting to read them to to Wolfie and going, oh, actually, no, no. Like,
there's a lot of, like, the aunts in James that
aren't peach are abusive, horrible humans. They're terrible people.

S1 (11:09):
There's a lot of that in Roald Dahl books.

S2 (11:10):
Yeah.

S1 (11:11):
Yeah.

S2 (11:11):
It's really.

S1 (11:12):
The twits.

S2 (11:13):
It's not okay. Like I find myself lucky. I took,
you know, studied improv and did all those improv years
because I'm, like, in the same cadence. I'll be like.
And then Auntie put the kettle on and, like, I
will edit as I go.

S1 (11:27):
Yeah.

S2 (11:28):
Because some of it is so gnarly. Yeah. These children
going into minces and all kinds of terrible.

S1 (11:34):
Matilda. Actually, all of them horrible things happening to children,
horrible adults.

S2 (11:38):
Really horrible.

S1 (11:39):
Adults.

S2 (11:39):
Yeah, really? Yeah. We're fine for those books to be
on shelves and be sold to children. Yeah, there's quite
a kerfuffle. Yeah. And I'm sure there is a kerfuffle when, uh,
you know, someone like you will write a book for children.
People are very worried. Yeah, very, very worried.

S1 (11:56):
Well, today it's release day, so there's been not a
kerfuffle yet, so I'm girding my loins for them.

S2 (12:03):
Get em girded.

S1 (12:04):
Kerfuffle. Although, you know what? I am hoping.

S2 (12:07):
If anyone's got girded loins. Girded loins. I've seen your
workout videos. And you once described to me how you
did the tuck. So your loins are.

S1 (12:18):
Well and truly girded.

S2 (12:19):
Very much so. You're ready to take anything.

S1 (12:22):
You know what I do think, though? Um, Alex Greenwich, um,
member for Sydney. Yes. Uh, sued Mark Latham for disparaging comments.
Made one, uh, defamation case. I'm hoping. And also.

S2 (12:36):
For people who are unaware, Alex is an openly gay
person and Latham used to be the leader of the
Labor Party and.

S1 (12:44):
Was nearly the Prime Minister of Australia. A very different turn.

S2 (12:47):
He's gone on a very different turn. And yeah, made
some very public, really horrible statements about this person. Yeah.
And it was awful. And he took him to court
and won and won.

S1 (12:59):
And I'm hoping that, um, that there's a precedent there.
And also in the UK, uh, there was a drag
queen who sued somebody for defamation in the US, another
drag queen who sued somebody for defamation for saying very
similar things to me that people have said to me
in Australia. Um, when I did playschool storytime back a

(13:21):
few years ago and, um, and at the time I
was asked whether I wanted to pursue any legal action
and I was like, oh, why would you bother? Like,
it's just a lot of lot of energy, a lot
of time, a lot of money. But then what I
saw happen in those three cases, Alex, as being the
local one, is that you set a precedent and it's like, oh,
you're actually not allowed to say gross, disgusting, horrible, untrue

(13:44):
things about people. And perhaps, I don't know, maybe, maybe from,
I guess, the world we live in, we see a
lot of that happening anyway. But when someone actually takes
action and stands up for themselves in that way, you think, oh, oh,
that's the point of the justice system. It is. Um,
so I guess. Hello out there, whoever you might be

(14:07):
thinking about it, don't bother this time, please. Because, you know, I've,
I've been reinforced by the success of of Alex Greenwich
and others. Yeah. To, um, to stand up for myself.

S2 (14:19):
But and but this is how our society changes. Because
it got people quite upset that a a drag queen
reading books to kids was somehow very dangerous thing. It isn't?

S1 (14:33):
No.

S2 (14:35):
But people got really weird about it. Have you had
a think? Like, why do you think people might be
getting a bit. Might feel a bit weird about that.

S1 (14:44):
I think that, um, there's been a long game when
it comes to attacking the queer community from back in the,
you know, the 80s. You've got your Anita Bryant's and
people like that with somebody. Think of the children and
this idea that there's something inherently sexual or sexualized about

(15:06):
queer people, drag queens. I think that when it comes
to drag, if you think about the opinion, the prevailing
opinion coming via the male gaze, um, that you and actually,
I've had this in a personal experience with a guy
who was like, oh, you know, but drag queen story time,

(15:27):
someone who I'd been intimate with. Um, and he was like, oh,
you know, because it is, it's a bit sexual, isn't it?
And I was like, no, it's not. You find it sexual?
Like he finds me sexual. And the way I look sexual.
And there's something about, um, that that fascination, um, that
can sort of. Yeah, that straight men can find there

(15:52):
to be something sexual about the whole transgression of gender
and sexuality and identity. But that's not inherent in in
the art form. Um, and I think there's a conflation between, like,
gender and sex and sexuality and identity. And I think ultimately,

(16:15):
like drag queen storytime probably started because there was a
couple of lesbian mums at the local library and their
child was having a book read to them. And the
mums thought, rather than this story being about a mom
and a dad and their kid, wouldn't it be great
if it was more reflective of our family? I remember
being a kid going to the fairy shop in Brisbane.

S2 (16:37):
I remember it.

S1 (16:38):
With The Veronicas. Um, their mum Colleen.

S2 (16:41):
You went to the.

S1 (16:41):
Same talent school? Yeah. We were.

S2 (16:44):
They weren't Veronicas. They were just Lisa.

S1 (16:46):
They were just Lisa and Jess back then. Yeah, but
we would go to the fairy shop and there was
this woman dressed as a fairy reading us kids books.
And I feel like those lesbian mums probably just thought, well,
why not have a fairy dressed as a woman reading
a kid's book? Yeah. And then drag queen storytime was
born because it's something fun and colourful. I performed at
Newcastle Pride on the weekend and it was just all
families and the kids just flocked to the front, and

(17:08):
they just love the glamour and the glitz and the
fun and the enjoyment and it's natural and it's lovely.

S2 (17:15):
I wonder if it's like the word moist and that
some people are.

S1 (17:20):
Completely innocent yet.

S2 (17:21):
Well, could the research is that for some people, the
word moist it brings up equal parts of, uh, like
relish and disgust. And because of that discomfort, they get
that and they can't handle it. And so I wonder
if it was the male gaze views what reads as

(17:41):
hot person. I am attracted to hot person. Hang on.
I know that that there's not a woman, but but
because there's a kid in the picture, then all. That's terrible.

S1 (17:55):
Yeah.

S2 (17:55):
Uh, rather than just going maybe, I wonder, I don't know,
I'm just wondering if that mix is there. I think kids,
that's the thing a lot of people they may not
have ever considered. But kids know, man. You know, there's
people in my life who are, you know, very close
to me. They've, you know, been known they were gay

(18:19):
since the moment they understood that, I don't know, like
pretty much when they were around other kids. So maybe
kiddy grade one.

S1 (18:26):
Yeah, I mean, I remember in Kindie these weren't maybe
acknowledged thoughts at the time, but.

S2 (18:32):
Let's be really clear. There's nothing sexualized at this point
because that doesn't exist.

S1 (18:35):
A crush on like there was a Kindie teacher preschool.
So five, 4 or 5 years old. And I just
remember like like just thinking he was dreamy. I also
remember he had visible earwax, which grossed me out. I
haven't really seen that since.

S2 (18:50):
Standards improved.

S1 (18:51):
Since then. Yeah, they.

S2 (18:52):
Have now sexualized.

S1 (18:53):
This.

S2 (18:53):
But I am interested though and I we got we
got very uppity about this in a hurry. I was
grade two Kenmore South State School and and PE. They
taught us the Time Warp, which is a song from
a film whose protagonist is a.

S1 (19:11):
Sweet transvestite.

S2 (19:13):
Cross-dressing, cannibal, mad scientist. Maybe.

S1 (19:16):
Hang on. Wait. Maybe this is where it comes from.
Maybe people's first. Like people of our generations first contact
with cross-dressing is.

S2 (19:27):
Tim Curry.

S1 (19:28):
Is Tim Curry is eating.

S2 (19:29):
Meatloaf for dinner. Can't figure it out.

S1 (19:31):
Who is explicitly sexual? There is something inherently sexual about that.

S2 (19:37):
Character murders people, cuts them up and eats them. Yeah,
it's a bat. But also really quite clearly very sexually
satisfies both Brad and Janet. Yes. Uh, but we had
no problem with that.

S1 (19:50):
Yeah.

S2 (19:51):
Uh, but for some reason.

S1 (19:52):
And we turned out all right. Yeah.

S2 (19:55):
We said in the story the other night, it's like
when it becomes such a fucking snowflake. Like, parents could
understand the difference between that, which is total fantasy and
my ability to raise a well-balanced child.

S1 (20:06):
It's obviously a conversation designed to create a moral panic
in order to marginalise an already marginalized group of people
to win some political points.

S2 (20:16):
You told me the story about going out, um, as
a cigarette girl called caught in the act. You had
some own opinions, your opinions about the quality of your
drag that night. Um.

S1 (20:27):
I thought you just said a new drag. Name. Simona. Pinions. Simone. Done.
When the day comes.

S2 (20:35):
Simona pinions. Simone. Opinions will. Simone. Pinions will live west
of Goodna. And Simone opinions? Yeah, she's pretty serious. It's
my own opinions. That's fucking great.

S1 (20:49):
That's a good one.

S2 (20:50):
That's a good drag. Name?

S1 (20:51):
Simone.

S2 (20:52):
Simone.

S1 (20:53):
Opinions, please. Welcome to the stage for her Ted talk. Simone. Opinions.

S2 (20:58):
Simone. I want Simone opinions to have a paint peeling
western Brisbane accent. Yes. Um, and you would never expect
that someone from, uh, slightly east of Ipswich, uh, would
be in drag, but have some very strong words about
community and society and acceptance, but delivered in a like
an I'm going down to the Red Bank RSL for

(21:20):
a pint later.

S1 (21:23):
Perfect.

S2 (21:23):
Fuck, yeah.

S1 (21:25):
Sorry I distracted you. No, seriously.

S2 (21:27):
It was real good. I guess what I'm getting for is, like,
you went out and created another entire persona, Courtney Act.
But there's a part of that that it becomes almost
inherently political. And I can only imagine that once because

(21:51):
you were, you know, you were very successful and you
became quite high profile quite quickly. Was there a bit of, oh, shit,
people are coming to me for opinion and stuff, and
I better get up to speed on a few things.
Have you how have you managed that or have you
had to stay ahead of it? Or have you found yourself?
Because whether you like it or not, people are going
to politicise you.

S1 (22:09):
Yes. Interestingly, because I mean, idol was 2003 and we
didn't have the internet. Really? Um, we certainly didn't have
social media or the comment section. And so and, and
there wasn't really much.

S2 (22:25):
Or if there were comment sections were not reported upon
as fact. Well, which they are now.

S1 (22:29):
Which they are now. People are saying one comment slam,
one comment in a thousand said, um, yeah. No, there
wasn't much. I don't think that many people cared back then.
I think it was after Celebrity Big Brother in the UK,
which was 2018. Um, I had started to post explainer

(22:49):
videos and things like that on YouTube. I did some
stuff for different organizations over the years, and so I
was interested and I was always trying to give people
my opinion. Yeah. Um, because I was always very curious.
And in my shows, I would always like be trying
to incorporate a message and sort of like hamfist something in, um,
but nobody really cared until.

S2 (23:09):
Everybody knows, like, that's not some weird sex move. It's
just a.

S1 (23:12):
It's a saying.

S2 (23:12):
It's a saying. Like for some people who have probably
got their finger on a trigger somewhere.

S1 (23:16):
Do you think it means that you've got a, like
a ham?

S2 (23:21):
Like a ham, like I'm using a too big a
too big a weapon to do the job? Yeah. Like
I'm using an overly giant thing to, you know, I'm
using a sledgehammer where, uh, you know.

S1 (23:33):
Hammer would have.

S2 (23:34):
Done. Yeah.

S1 (23:35):
Well, yeah. Um, and so, yes, nobody really cared until 2018.
Celebrity Big brother. Um, which was kind of lovely because
I'd always, I'd always like, wanted people to care. Yeah.
And then they started asking me about my opinions. And
there was a really good trot for a few good
years there where you could have public conversation and discourse

(23:58):
that was nuanced and interesting. And unfortunately, that has ended,
and that any comment made in the public sphere seems
to result in polarisation. Um, I mean, the internet, social
media is a perfect example of the way the algorithms
operate and how I've worked out through throwing a bunch
of shallots into the rubbish bin. How the internet works

(24:22):
I made this video where I opened my fridge, and
there was a bunch of shallots there that were old
and wilted. I pulled them out, I threw them in
the bin and I replaced them with the new shallots.
It was a very quick video, but it's to this
day my most viewed piece of content with 10 million
views and all of these comments.

S2 (24:39):
What's the hook?

S1 (24:39):
What's the hook is that the half a third of
the comments were outraged that I was being wasteful, and
that I should have cut up those shallots and put
them in a freezer bag and saved them. I could
have put them in water. A third of the comments
were outraged because I was calling spring onions shallots because

(25:00):
I'm from Brisbane.

S2 (25:01):
How dare.

S1 (25:01):
You! And another third of the comments were saying, oh
my God, that's so me. Like, you've thrown out the
wilted ones and you've got the new ones and you'll
never use any of them. And it just kind of
made sense that actually, if you want to create viral
content on the internet, you need to outrage two thirds
of the people and you get one third of your
audience to support you. But actually, if you and if

(25:24):
you look at the comment section of anything that is
viral or popular, it's all mostly.

S2 (25:30):
That ratio.

S1 (25:30):
Hate.

S2 (25:31):
Yeah.

S1 (25:32):
Um, and so you're incentivized to create divisive content. Now,
I mean.

S2 (25:39):
It changes your thinking. It changes the way you think
about things and people imagine in their heads, oh, what's
a a comeback I can say here that's going to
be a slam dunk. Yeah. Rather than tell me more
about that.

S1 (25:53):
And even the comment section now because now there's this culture,
particularly on threads which I don't go on threads and
I presumably on, on X, um, the comment section is
more entertaining than the post. So now the humble commenter
is the star like today? Some girl because I posted,

(26:15):
you know, about my my my children's book on all
of the social media platforms. And then I was on
threads and there was some girl who said, can somebody
remove this man in the yellow shirt from this photograph?
And then I was like, what? And then I looked
and people have taken this still photograph and run it
through AI and all sorts of weird things end up
happening in the background. And it was thoroughly entertaining. Pointless.

(26:37):
But like, I don't know whether this girl was just
rage clickbaiting or whether she genuinely wanted the man in
yellow removed from her photo. But thousands and thousands of
comments and they're the stars. Because I was like, what
is this stupid post? What is she talking? And then
it's the comment section is the star.

S2 (26:56):
It's not real though. No, this is not what we'd
never say these things to each other. To each other's faces. No.

S1 (27:02):
I mean, I think it's to do with capitalism, you know,
and the algorithms that they've worked out that this is
how we can get a lot of eyes addicted to
this content by by playing on that tribalism that us
and them, the fight and flight sort of response. And
that over time starts to condition the brain into thinking

(27:23):
that that's what life is. But also like, I think
there's this idea of like proportional representation in some way
we need to find on social media. I had this
thought the other day, obviously they wouldn't do this, but
I was like, why? Maybe social media should have like, um,
the AI can read all the comments and it can
say it can have like a little sliding scale. And

(27:43):
like this. Many people disagree, this many people agree. And
here's the because when you look at the comments, you're like, oh,
everybody strongly disagrees with this, but there's 2000 comments and
you're like, oh, actually, ten of them strongly disagree. And
the rest are all, you know, lovely or not, or
a little proportional representation.

S2 (27:59):
It's also the fly in the soup, isn't it? And
I'm sure you've had this experience. You read, you know,
a response to what you've something you've put online. Love it,
love it, love it, love it, love it, love it.
What a dick. That's the one that sticks with you. Yeah.
You know, and it's weird. And you're exactly right. There
is money involved in trapping us like this. And this

(28:20):
is the really, really important thing we have to, um,
have to remind ourselves daily and that life is nuance
and everything is a spectrum. And I was told a
really wonderful way to think of spectrums the other day.
They're not it's not linear, like the electromagnetic spectrum or
the light spectrum. Spectrums are like the color wheel you
see when you pull up Photoshop or something, you know,
it's some parts of it over there, some parts of

(28:42):
it over here, some parts are closer to the middle.
It's this weird kind of starfish shape of of where
things are and everything's different. That's what the spectrum is.
It's different places on a globe of ideas and opinion.
It's not. You are this one point on this linear
space and appreciating that that also changes over time. I

(29:03):
was interested, You know, we were, you know, thinking about
how you first showed up as Courtney Act. And then
now my livelihood is tied to this character. Where do
I sit? Where does Courtney sit? Courtney can host a
TV show and, you know, go and shoot guns with

(29:23):
the bloke from Parkway Drive. And, you know, Shane can
go do other stuff. Like, how's your relationship with Courtney
changed over time?

S1 (29:32):
Um, it's gotten, uh, there was a time back in
the early days, like idol days. I remember going to
a therapist to talk about my, um, struggles with Courtney
almost being, like, a third person. And the therapist explained
that actually, um, the mask of Courtney, if anything, gave
me a little bit more time and distance between, I guess, um,

(29:56):
the struggles that can come with being publicly recognized and
that I should be thankful for that aspect, because at
the time I was like, I think Rob Mills and
I were at the jam factory in Melbourne or somewhere
down in Melbourne, and like a group of teenage girls,
like chased us into a shop. But they didn't. They
were chasing Rob Mills into the shop. And then Rob
was like, do you remember Courtney? And then they were

(30:17):
all like, oh my God. And then they were all excited,
but they didn't know who I was. Um, and and
that made me the, the ego part of me back
then was jealous that Rob got chased into a shop.
Now I realised that my anonymity or my ability to

(30:37):
have privacy is something that I love and that I relish,
and that the the ego burst of having some strangers
recognise you is actually, uh, not worth the the loss
of anonymity. But, you know, it comes with a job
in the public eye that you then come to accept

(30:58):
and you have a higher value in what you do. Then, um,
perhaps that small loss of anonymity or that inconvenience. And thankfully,
in my case, everybody's always just telling me nice things.
Nobody's yelling, slurs or saying horrible things. So it's actually
quite lovely.

S2 (31:12):
It's just people don't say to you face to face
what gets written in comments.

S1 (31:15):
Exactly.

S2 (31:16):
This is true.

S1 (31:16):
Yeah, well, I think as well, because for me, the
character isn't a character. It's more just like me wearing
different clothes. And so I think for a long time
there was a delineation and that actually wasn't so healthy
for me. Uh, and I think that delineation came because

(31:37):
I was shame about doing drag and being Courtney and
that there was it was a different time. It's even
as I say it now, I'm like, surely that wasn't
the case. Surely you were never embarrassed by doing drag
like Post-idol like, surely this was the greatest thing to happen,
but it was always like, oh, you know, it's just
a it's just a job. Like a police officer wears
a police uniform. Nothing funny going on here. And then

(31:59):
around 2014, and probably due large to the public conversations
and the storytelling that was happening in the media, I
was able to accept and also through conversations with friends personally.
But I was able to accept and understand that actually
it was okay for boys to be feminine and it's

(32:19):
okay for girls to be masculine and that me loving,
doing drag and loving being Courtney, and the certain style
and type of drag that I specifically chose, which was
very feminine like drag, is often a lot more elaborate
and bigger and clowny and costumey, um, and my drag
was always quite feminine. And so the question was asked
to me, oh, why do you think that you resonate

(32:41):
to that sort of specific type of drag? And I
was like, well, what do you mean? What do you mean?
Nothing funny going on here? And then this friend, the
friend who was Chaz Bono, actually, um, helped me, shares
son helped me sort of understand that it was, that
it was okay, that I like feminine things because I'd
grown up in Brisbane in the 80s and 90s and

(33:03):
it wasn't okay to like feminine things. And so oddly,
compartmentalizing the femininity into Courtney, into this character was a
way for me to justify doing it. But then, yeah, 2014,
I was like, oh, actually, I just really like it.
I like I like feminine things. And interestingly, my fashion

(33:24):
as Shane, I would always struggle. I couldn't work out
how to wear clothes as Shane. I would buy things.
I'm like, oh, this doesn't fit. And ever since then
I've just felt so much more comfortable. Like today I'm
wearing a pair of floral looks like your grandma's couch.
What do you call this? Not tapestry.

S2 (33:42):
Um, yeah. So it's kind of like a almost like
a carpetbagger.

S1 (33:45):
Kind of. Yeah.

S2 (33:46):
Carpetbagger. It's awful. It's not quite curtains, but it's it's
it's very.

S1 (33:51):
It could be a couch.

S2 (33:51):
It's very intricately woven.

S1 (33:53):
But yeah, I've become I've become very comfortable and I've
sort of taken those two halves of myself and melted
them together. And I like both halves now. And I
love it's like when a celebrity get a female celebrity who,
I don't know. Jennifer Lopez at home versus Jennifer Lopez

(34:14):
on a red carpet. They're two. They look very visually different. Mhm.
And I think for me Courtney is like Shane on
a red carpet but also nicely Shane can go on
a red carpet too.

S2 (34:25):
Yeah.

S1 (34:26):
Which is much more comfortable.

S2 (34:29):
I can only imagine. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
tell you I didn't try the tuck that you described
to me. I have in the privacy.

S1 (34:36):
Of your own home.

S2 (34:37):
Pretty much that night after you left my house, I
was like, all right, let's give this a shot. I
was like, I didn't have. I couldn't get the angles right.
It was very, very odd. It was hard to do.

S1 (34:48):
It the first time. You know, can be challenging, but
it's not. It's more just like.

S2 (34:53):
I keep going. Samurais could do this. Surely I could
do this.

S1 (34:58):
Um. It's more that, like, um. It's it's something about like.
Like when I do things as Shane, I'm like, oh,
my God. Like, I get ready as Shane every single morning.
I just put on a t shirt, put on a
pair of pants, put on a bit of moisturizer, brush
your hair and you're done. But the Courtney, you're sitting
there for hours. And when it's something wonderful, like when

(35:19):
it's Mardi Gras and I've got a new outfit and
fabulous hair. There's nothing more thrilling to me than, like,
getting into drag. But when it's like, you know, doing,
you know, going on a morning show, which I'm very
grateful for, but I'm like, there's no there's no thrill
in wearing a white power suit and something you've already worn, like,
it's for me, drag. The excitement of drag comes from

(35:40):
the creativity.

S2 (35:45):
I just need to take a quick break from Shane
to tell you that Shane's book is out. Yes, but
as is. So what? Now? What? It's a fantastic Christmas
gift that is available in the show notes. You can
click on that and you can buy a copy for you,
for your friend, for your brother, sister, mum, cousin, auntie, whomever.
It's all there. Also, um, Shane ended up being a
guest at Story Club and Shane's story is fantastic and

(36:08):
I'll put it up in a number of weeks. But
every week now the Story Club YouTube is happening. It's great.
We're back with live shows in February, but it tide
you over the summer. Every week there's a new story.
This week I, um, I shared a story about, um,
moments like, for example, where I, uh, helped Courtney Act
find her way home from Australian Idol by, uh, reading
out the card where she was voted off. It's a

(36:29):
great story. You can find it on YouTube. We're back
in just a moment with Shane Janek. You mentioned Mardi Gras, and,
I mean, I would never. I'm 51 and I've known

(36:50):
you a long time. I've known you since I was probably.
Maybe 30 years. I think I've known you. Yeah. Yeah.
Let's just leave that there. Now, in that time, uh,
our society's relationship to the queer community has shifted significantly.
And I wondered if, you know, get your thoughts on

(37:11):
what that might be like day to day in, like,
there's someone quite close to me whose parents were involved
in the setting up of PFLAG parents, friends, Lesbians and Gays.
And it kind of kind of dissipated. And I was.

S1 (37:29):
Not around anymore.

S2 (37:31):
Well, the need for it.

S1 (37:33):
Yeah.

S2 (37:33):
Is a lot less to the point where maybe we
don't need to have the like. It's it helped a
lot of people for a long time. And yet and now,
because of the way that our community is and our
society is and the way that, you know, books like
this are published. Yeah. Okay.

S1 (37:51):
We might I'm going to go out on a limb
and say that maybe those parents or that chapter of
PFLAG was a, like a Sydney city or an eastern suburbs.

S2 (38:00):
Oh, no, no, no, they were there. West.

S1 (38:02):
Okay. Yeah. Because I I've got a friend. I'll try
and keep it general for their anonymity, but I've got
a friend who's.

S2 (38:12):
Uber so fucking good at your neutral pronouns. I remember
you teaching me about this. I was like, damn, you
just do it without breaking step. I got to think
so hard.

S1 (38:19):
Well, I've got a friend who's a trans woman and
she works in public school system. Primary school as a
like a teacher's aide. Yeah. And she's just just in
the last couple of years. This is the thing is, like,
everything was going really lovely 2014 to like, 2016, like,
think like 2020. It was kind of like peak 2023

(38:41):
Sydney WorldPride. Yeah. Peak Acceptance. Wonderful. You could feel.

S2 (38:46):
It had a lot to do with a host. I
think of world pride. Some of you may know them. Courtney. Yeah,
brilliant job.

S1 (38:53):
But there was just like I remember watching moods and
attitudes change. I remember when Obama, I was living in
the US, and I remember when Obama made the speech
about marriage equality. I remember I remember being so moved
it was that I cried. I to hear an American
president saying the word. I remember there was shock when

(39:14):
the first time I heard him say gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender.
Now that seems absurd. And that was only ten years ago. But, um,
in just in the last few years, Mardi Gras this year, um,
saw a withdrawal by meta and by Google and by

(39:34):
a lot of American multinationals under a post-Trump die is
dead kind of world. And so quickly, the support and
the which which was always like about the, you know,
the soul and the heart of supporting equality. Um, and
then all of a sudden that's been withdrawn and, um,

(39:57):
a lot of regional prides as well, I know, have
had money withdrawn all around the world, not just here, um,
because of that. And you do see the attitudes starting
to change. And, I mean, we see it more widely,
certainly in the US, but even in Australia, we see these,
you know, um, sort of hate groups more broadly rising

(40:18):
up in different facets. And so I think that, um,
whilst it felt like maybe the fight was coming to
an end with Mardi Gras, that we've actually got new
reasons now to be steadfast, which is unfortunate, because it
would have been really lovely if everybody was just accepted.

(40:39):
And but like in in the eastern suburbs in Sydney
and Melbourne. Yes, but I know that still I get
messages all the time from families and and from young
people saying that they've having a horrible time being bullied
at school. Like we like. Yes, Gen Z and Gen
Alpha are all cool and hip and with it.

S2 (41:01):
Yeah.

S1 (41:02):
But there's still this really pervasive misogyny. And that then
informs homophobia, particularly towards young men, um, young boys, because
there's this idea of like a young boy being soft
or compassionate or caring that is viewed as feminine. And

(41:24):
in society we still view feminine as less than. And
so then that becomes a negative. And and I think
that it's certainly a lot better, but I don't think
we've arrived.

S2 (41:37):
And you, you know, you make a bear in mind,
I had this conversation about PFLAG Biden was in. Right. Uh,
because I was working with.

S1 (41:46):
I might have reformed.

S2 (41:47):
Yeah, it might have. Yeah, precisely. And you make a
you make a good point in that it's all well
and good to have your rainbow colors on your ad
sometime in early March to go, hey, you know, these
golden arches are also rainbows. Yeah. Uh, but it's just
hard for me to not see that as a cynical
tracing of a dollar or a cynical way of being

(42:07):
seen to be doing the right thing. But I wonder
if that is because in response to whatever the administration
that they're working under, who holds the reins of the, um,
regulation of their industry, you know, and this may be similar.

S1 (42:24):
So and in a weird way, like, it's not like
pride is the only thing that has suffered under Trump's administration.
And we see literally the most powerful people in the
world bending to his will and kissing the ring and
I so I, I get it. Not that ring.

S2 (42:44):
I didn't say anything, Shane. I didn't say anything.

S1 (42:47):
You can call me Courtney.

S2 (42:48):
Courtney. Well, you haven't got much. You taught me that once.
It's like if the if the face is on. But
the Whigs not there. It's shortening. Yeah. Like, as soon
as the face starts, it's shortening, which is which I like. Yeah,
but but I get it. And part, I don't know,
maybe part of it is, is the lack of acceptance
or wanting to accept that maybe my own kid or

(43:10):
someone in my life might not be within the bell
curve of what we as a community consider, you know, homogenous. Yeah.
And I don't want my child to be on the outer,
even if it's something that my child has no control over.

S1 (43:26):
Well, interestingly, like, the children have always been on the
outer and on different points of the bell curve. Mhm.
Growing up I was a you know. Shane, stop walking
on your tiptoes like a fairy. You know those like.
But we just didn't have language for it back then.
But now to describe gender as a spectrum, which gender

(43:46):
is a spectrum? Like if you look at, I mean,
you're a different type of masculinity to me. And, you know,
I don't know why Bob Katter just came to my mind.
He's one kind of masculinity. And, um, Rhys Nicholson is
another type of masculinity. Um, and so I think that, like,
we can see that gender exists on a spectrum, and

(44:09):
we can also see through time that gender exists on
a spectrum. Women weren't allowed to wear pants, trousers in
like the 1930s. Katharine Hepburn kicked down those doors, and
it was made a lot easier because she was wearing slacks.
And it's just that thing that we see the way
that gender evolves, and I think that there's someone has
made something spooky about this idea of gender being on

(44:32):
a spectrum when it's really quite literal and we see
it all the time in our world. I think that again,
those that loud minority has willfully misrepresented certain parts of
the conversation to create a moral panic to win political points.
But I think that, um, I think really I mean,

(44:54):
you know, you've got young kids, you just want them
to be happy. You want to listen to them, you
want them to feel heard. You want to support them
in who they are and and how they express themselves.
And there's a certain amount of give and take in that.
Like just because a kid says, I want to wear
a Spider-Man costume, you don't think he wants to live
as Spider-Man for the rest of his life? Um, but

(45:14):
certainly I think the idea that people who have penises
act this way and people who have vaginas act this
way and that there's a very clearly defined binary, and
that there's very sharp walls and boxes around those two
types of people, and they're never allowed to deviate from that.
I think that's not true. I think that is something

(45:37):
that creates a lot of struggle in those people, in
society in general. I mean, the conversation around masculinity and
like the straight white man and that sort of thing,
I actually think like the box that is placed around
the archetypical straight white man that we see a lot of, um,
these conversations about masculinity pushing against is is so, um,

(46:02):
it's so narrow and it's so restrictive, like the, the
if a man's integrity is compromised by him having a
flourish of the wrist or a desire for something that
isn't football or F1 or beer like, it just feels

(46:24):
really like it feels it feels like such a flawed.
And I think the thing is, is like born into
a cage. And you can't. You don't know that you're
in a cage. And I think interesting, like the message
of the queer community. And I think because I was
born into that cage, essentially. And then as we grow up,
I didn't fit the cage enough that I realized that

(46:48):
I was an occasion didn't fit. And so, like, there
was something that was that didn't fit so much about
me that meant that I was able to identify myself, um,
independently of that. And I think that for a lot
of people, perhaps they don't realize that there's all these
expectations that society has placed on them, and actually they
are allowed to. I'm not talking about anarchy and the
dissolution of civilization by any means. I'm just talking about like,

(47:12):
I don't know, do you like that thing? It's okay
if you like that thing. And, um, I mean, I
think you're a perfect example of a man who has
defined who he is, um, and the things that he likes. And,
you know, you're you're out there having. Lovely, thoughtful conversations
with people. You're expressing yourself in mainstream media in ways

(47:33):
that is, that feels like warm and inviting and and
those even that as a quality is, is progressive in
a way from the archetypical man.

S2 (47:41):
So it can still feel kind of lonely sometimes because, um,
I'm not I'm just not the kind of guy that
does things that a lot of other guys do. And
I find it difficult to engage. And so I'm like, okay,
I make I okay. So it's a bit weird sometimes
because I find it difficult to find other, um, men. And,

(48:05):
you know, most people my age would struggle to have
close friends. I'm lucky to have some quite close friends,
but there's not many of them, because not a lot
of men who kind of see things from where I
see them. And and so, yeah, it's not without its difficulties,
and it's not without also feeling like I can't get

(48:27):
behind that man. Like, yeah, I really don't give two
fucks about what that car does.

S1 (48:31):
Well, isn't that isn't that the interesting thing? Right. Because
there's something that has authentically spoken to you and that you've, you've,
you've leant into like all of your the things that
you like and enjoy. Mhm. And there's something that's, that
can feel lonely about that because so few people do.
I mean I'm sure that a lot of men genuinely

(48:52):
do love cars and football. Yeah. Like I believe that
to be true. Um, but then I think that a
lot of them are also just like, oh, no, this
is what we have to like, guys. We've got to
like this thing.

S2 (49:05):
It's part of it, I think might just be I'm
just looking for common things to connect with. Connect on. Yeah.
You know, and that and that's it. But there's, you know,
there's certain elements that I never understood when I was younger.
And I see it, you know, in my own son, like,
I just never understood connecting with each other by punching
someone in the arm. Yeah. Fucking got that. Yeah, some

(49:26):
dudes will totally do that. I'm like, just fucking shake
my hand, mate.

S1 (49:28):
Yeah.

S2 (49:29):
It's fine. Yeah, I never understood. Um, I feel really
weird when that happens because I don't know what to
do with that. Yeah.

S1 (49:35):
And you'd also experience sort of the best and the
worst of it. Really. Like in, in in public. Yeah.
Men trying to relate to that guy from television. It's
real hard because I'm.

S2 (49:47):
I am quite an empty vessel in many ways. Not
since channel V, which was a music television show back
when we had music television. Not since channel V have
I done a job where I've been me on camera.
I'm simply there as exposition. And so people feel in
a lot of blanks. All right. For example, I haven't
eaten meat since 2002, and so people can create all

(50:11):
kinds of shit in their head about what I believe. Like,
I don't give two shits what you put in your mouth, mate. Like,
I'm not going to show you chicken slaughterhouse videos. Like,
I don't care what you do. It's your colon. Like
it's your arteries. Off you pop. Yeah, but people will
fill in the blanks and assume. People assume. I'm like
a super lefty, mega lefty guy. I'm not. I'm actually

(50:34):
pretty centrist and pretty humanist. And some things I'm like,
I think we're spending too much money on that. And
like some of the things that the further left leaning, uh,
activists have insisted on our society. I get it, I
get it, I understand it. I don't know if in

(50:54):
the long run, for me, it's a bit like when
I walk through Pitt Street Mall and there's the vegan
people there. And again, I haven't eaten meat in a
long time, showing footage of slaughterhouses and cows being decapitated
and blood and stuff like that. It's like, yeah, that
is true. And I don't know if you're gonna help
by shaming people.

S1 (51:13):
It comes down to the do you want to be
right or do you want to be effective argument. And
quite often I think. Oh yeah. This is. Yes, yes
you're right. Yes, this is correct. But I think we
do need to acknowledge that we do live in a
society which is a shared space, and we want to
work out how to make that, um, as good for everybody. Um,

(51:39):
and I think that also, I think because of the
algorithms that this idea that there is this ginormous cohort
of people who believe this particular.

S2 (51:52):
Children are going to change genders before little lunch.

S1 (51:55):
Well, that one, yes. But like the the ideas on
the extreme left and the extreme right take up so
much conversation space in the center. And I think these
ideas are like, let's say 3% of people actually believe them,
but we spend 30% of our time talking about them.

(52:15):
That's that doesn't make sense.

S2 (52:17):
And it comes back to your proportional comment section.

S1 (52:20):
I like it well, because the more. And the other
thing is, the more time we get sucked into the
talking points of the extreme, the more volume and column
inches and credibility we give them. And so, I mean,
when doing publicity for this book, I've been asked, you know,
by everyone essentially about this conversation about drag queen story

(52:43):
time and, and I just think, like the more we
talk about these niche opinion, like if I release this
book five years ago, 2020 would have only been celebration. Joy.
How wonderful. Isn't this lovely? What a sweet book. Oh,
she looks so glamorous. Oh, the. Do you know what

(53:05):
I mean? And that it's so weird that in the
last few years that there could be ever something untoward
about me. A drag performer releasing a children's book. And
I remember at first I sort of brushed that off.
It was when Senator Antic held up my photograph in

(53:26):
the Senate estimates and asked, why is the ABC using
government money to groom children?

S2 (53:32):
You're. Yeah. You weren't. No, because that's a very difficult word.
People use it when they shouldn't use it.

S1 (53:40):
Yeah. And Senator Sarah Hanson-Young was there thankfully, to say
you shouldn't be using words of abuse where none is
happening because it diminishes the instances where it actually is happening.

S2 (53:51):
For people who are outside the country. It was an
episode of playschool, which is a show that's been running
on the ABC, our public broadcaster, for 70 years. Yeah, long,
long time. And there's always people reading stories on that
on that show. Yeah.

S1 (54:03):
And I read a story in drag, a very pleasant
story called The Spectacular Suit, about a girl who wanted
to wear a suit to her birthday party. Um, and
I think this Adelaide senator saw an opportunity to speak
Australian politics with an American accent. Thankfully, it kind of
failed miserably. But. He stole an innocence from me. I

(54:29):
had never thought about myself in that way or in
relation to that and that. Now I realize that when
I was in public, I was like, oh, like I'm
sitting at the beach and there's a bunch of kids
playing ball. I would have been like, oh, that's cute.
And now I'm like, oh God, is somebody looking at
me thinking, is that that person? And I was like, oh,

(54:50):
how horrible to like, have to second guess and think
about those sorts of things now because some person decided to,
you know, make defamatory statements about you.

S2 (55:03):
You responded to that with an opinion piece in the
Sydney Morning Herald, which I assume also ran in the
age down in Melbourne. The final line of which was, uh,
got to go. I'm off to write a kid's book. Yes.
Is this that book?

S1 (55:15):
This is that kid's book. And that's the thing, right?
You got to meet fear with love. Yeah. Um, and
so I've written this kid's book, confetti in the Rainbow Garden,
which is like a gorgeous little celebration of a sapling. Uh,
who's in Nan's backyard? And it's springtime and they're wondering

(55:37):
if this is going to be the spring where their
flowers bloom for the first time. They're wondering, what are
their flowers going to look like? Will they be too
quiet or too loud? And they go on a journey
around the garden, visiting all of their cousins to see
what is it that their cousins like? And what do
their flowers look like? And, um, and also confetti. The
the hero of the story, um, knows that Nan named

(56:01):
them after her favorite tree in the garden. Right. And
so confetti is wondering, like, which tree could I be called?
Which tree relates to confetti? Um, so, yeah, they go
around the garden talking to all of their cousins who
are all Australian native flowers.

S2 (56:16):
The art is delightful, by the way, and you know
when you read it, you are going to want to well,
you want to know what's going to happen to the iris.

S1 (56:24):
Thank you. Oh, good.

S2 (56:26):
It's very special. I read a lot of kids books
because in certain kids books, there's a little. Because you
read them so often, you read them all the time,
you read them a hundred times more. And so if
you can put a little thing in there that lasts
over the arc of the book, it's another thing to
engage with. You know why the, you know, your kid
starts to predict that. That's why they like them again
and again and again, because they know it's it's a safe,

(56:48):
predictable thing. And like. And it's lovely. The what I
like about it is there's this idea that you don't
need to know what you are straight away. It will
come with time. Yeah. And it's okay to be curious
about it. And it's okay to be a little worried
about it. But it's also important to remember, like, it's
going to be all right, whatever it is. Yeah. it.

(57:09):
However it shows up, whatever it is. And again, also
it will change over time. The stuff I was into
when I was younger, I really don't care about now.
There was like from day to night some of that stuff.
I'm like, I'm never going to listen to that album again, ever.
And I cared about it so much. I had a
poster on my wall. I just don't really care that

(57:29):
much anymore. We're different people and we grow through time.
And it's fine. That's what we.

S1 (57:34):
Are. Yeah.

S2 (57:35):
And that's. And that's all right. And especially with little kids, man.
Just giving them that space to be curious. Let's figure
that out. Let's go try let's go try. And if
you don't, you know, if you're not into it, I'm
not going to force you.

S1 (57:49):
Yeah. And then there's something about, you know, confetti getting
to the to the top of the garden, to their
favorite place in the garden, doing their favorite thing in
the garden, and that feeling of joy that comes from
following the thing that you love. And it's nice to
be able to try different things and be like, oh,
I really like that. But maybe not. I really like that.
But maybe not. And then like, oh, actually, this is

(58:11):
the thing that I really love doing and this is
the thing that I should do. Yeah. Um, there's that
idea of authenticity.

S2 (58:17):
And something you think, oh, that looks really awesome. I
can't wait to try that. And then you do it. Like, actually,
it isn't what I thought it would be. I had
a different idea from the outside, but now I'm doing it. Yeah,
in my experience, that would be breakfast radio. It's. It
isn't what I wanted. No, it isn't what I wanted anymore.

S1 (58:33):
Yeah. I mean, even like in, in this book, I,
the cousins all have a different thing that they like
even making those things science, gardening, synchronized swimming, poetry. Like, I,
I was just trying to like I could have made
them stuff and, you know, ballet and like, the archetypical

(58:55):
or stereotypical things. But I was like, I don't know,
like this one, one of the Lilli Pilli. Yeah, she
really loves science. And the kangaroo paw really loves playing soccer. Yeah. Um,
and even just telling. And that's why I think the
solution to. We talked about. Do you want to be
right or do you want to be effective? And you
can argue until you're blue in the face about the

(59:15):
thing that you're right about. Mhm. Often that tactic can
come with shaming the people who are wrong as well.
And it's not to say that they're not still wrong
but is it effective. And all of the thinking that
I've done, I've really come to a place I obviously like.
Laws and activism are important in shaping our society, as

(59:39):
we discussed earlier. But I think the real change comes
from storytelling, and I think it comes from something that
feels a lot less effective than it actually is, because,
like writing a sweet story in a book kind of
feels a bit innocuous because you're not fighting anybody and
you're not getting that that like angst or that anger.

(01:00:01):
And those are really powerful emotions.

S2 (01:00:03):
And it's very stimulating to have a standing shouting argument
with somebody or angrily typing.

S1 (01:00:07):
Yeah, but actually, when you're just sharing a story, when
you're when you're creating a lovely television show on ABC
called Big Boys, which is a UK scripted drama series,
and it's just like it's one of the few times
that I've seen a show that's got gay characters in
it where like, nothing horrible happens. Everybody makes good choices

(01:00:29):
and like, it's just lovely. It's not predictable. It's like
this sweet story of, like a straight college student and
a gay college student who are best friends. And I'm like, oh,
it's so lovely to watch. And it's so entertaining. And
it's had three seasons, so it's been a success. It's
been exported to Australia. And I actually think that, like
all the people watching that sweet, lovely show probably have

(01:00:52):
their opinions and ideas expanded and shifted a little more
and thinking a little bit differently rather than like that
nasty comment you're leaving in the comment section? Yeah. Um,
I've got all these ideas that I want to explore through,
I don't know, like documentary or like other that I'm
working on at the moment where it's just about like,

(01:01:13):
how do I reach across the aisle and how do
I there's this Maya Angelou quote that I just I'm
not often one who reposts other things, but she just
talked about, um, whenever I do anything, whenever I step
on stage, whenever I go into a meeting, I, I,
I take all of the people who have ever been
kind to me with me in that moment. And I

(01:01:34):
just think there's something so beautiful about that idea of like,
being kind and rather than trying to think about, how
can I be right? How can I beat this person?
It's like we're all just trying to. Yeah, we're all
just trying to get through it. And that the idea
of being kind and and thinking, having some compassion for
another person rather than thinking that the world is out

(01:01:56):
to get you.

S2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, it's hard to do, though. It is hard if
you are particularly a persecuted minority and your whole life
you have been shat upon. Yes, the anger and the
fight and the righteousness is a protective mechanism.

S1 (01:02:16):
And that's why the storytelling is important, right? Because when
I hear or see or read that story in a
podcast and a book on TV, in a documentary, I
then go, oh, that's why that person is that way.
And then I have a little empathy and understanding for them.
But when we only hear one type of story being

(01:02:38):
told then and we don't, you know, this is the
thing about trans folks, right? Most people don't know a
trans person. Most people do know a gay person, a
gay or a lesbian or bisexual, but most people don't
know a trans person. And the only time that they
hear about trans people is in the media, which for
the last few years has been solely occupied by the

(01:03:00):
idea of bathrooms and sport and children and whatnot. But actually,
most people, most trans people, ones who are in relationships,
are just talking about bin night and they're just do
you know what I mean? It's like it's actually it's
they're just a human being who's trying to get through
life exactly the same way as everybody else. And I
think less sensational and more sort of just run of

(01:03:24):
the mill stories that aren't centered around the extremes of
identity are really important.

S2 (01:03:30):
We have this idea that we we turn things that
we don't, uh, have the full picture on, things we're
unfamiliar with, things that were frightening to us. We turn
them into, like, the biggest, scariest version of what it
could possibly be. And then that's what we're reacting to.

S1 (01:03:46):
And that's the thing about these, I guess I would
call them right wing talking points. Extreme right talking points
is that they've been constructed to occupy our attention, to
create a moral panic. And so when we get sucked
into talking about those things, I think we do a
disservice to the humanity of of those people. And I

(01:04:06):
think that's why I want Papa Trans newsreader on the telly.
We just need like, normal average representations of different types
of people. Like even when we talk about, you know,
perhaps the race reckoning that has gone on over the
last five years. Um, having like extreme stories or people

(01:04:29):
reacting to racism or, um, like, it's just it's just
like we just want more stories of people of colour
in Australian media. They don't have to be about the
fact that they are Indian or Aboriginal or whatever. They
can just be humans because it becomes tokenistic. Otherwise. When

(01:04:51):
we're constantly representing people for the minority, that represents.

S2 (01:04:54):
Maybe a maybe a pathway forward is, um, so I'm.
Closer to 16 years sober than I am 15 years now.
But when I first got into those meetings, those sobriety meetings,
I was really, really resentful that I needed to be there.
I did not want to be there, and I didn't
want to hear a fucking word that anybody else was saying.
But I knew that I had to be there. I

(01:05:14):
was going to die, and I would hear people talking
and I'd just be in full judgment, full fucking judgment
of the way they viewed the world. And my man
at the time, he just said, he's got to listen
to the similarities, not the differences. Listen for what is
in common. Listen for what isn't common. Listen. And it
really taught me to go, well, what is what is
in common, right? Like we've both got a favorite food,

(01:05:36):
we've both got a favorite song. We both have a
dual flush toilet that's a bit leaky. You know, I,
you know, both of us deal with huntsmans when it's
very rainy. You know, the things that make us in
common are vastly more in number than where we are different.

S1 (01:05:52):
Yeah. There are some people who would say that who
I am as a drag queen is somehow like pulling
apart the threads of society due to the anarchistic nature
of my disavowal of gender. But I mean, really, if
you want to focus on what the problem is, it's
these the separation of society through social media algorithms. Yeah.

S2 (01:06:13):
The other benefit of getting out of social media and, like,
I could talk to you forever and ever and ever
because I adore you. Um, I'm seeing and I see
it in Georgia, who's now 21, as phone down and
her and her cohort of friends. They will seek out
things where they're doing things together. All right. We've for

(01:06:34):
so long been kind of isolating and I'm and I'm wondering,
what do you get out of what kind of nourishment
do you get out of, of being with other people
and connecting with other people?

S1 (01:06:44):
It's real. It's what life is made of. And one
thing that does give me hope is that we. If
you look at history, things swing left, things swing right,
things change. And at the moment it feels like a
race to the bottom. But actually, like as humans, the

(01:07:06):
isolation that we're all feeling doesn't feel good. And the
ones of us who are old enough to remember a
time before the.

S2 (01:07:14):
Before.

S1 (01:07:15):
Times. Yeah. Where?

S2 (01:07:16):
Like when it was in four by three. Yeah.

S1 (01:07:18):
Hang on. We need to go outside. And we need
to have analog experiences. And analog experiences are now being,
you know, often it's about what you can who how
can you convince the people who are making the money
to change what they're doing in order to benefit society,
like with, you know, the environment? How can we convince

(01:07:40):
the gas and oil companies to do green stuff and
make money off that as well? Like, I don't know,
is ExxonMobil. Green energy. The best energy. I'd rather it
be that than fossil fuel energy.

S2 (01:07:53):
Do you want to be right, or do you want
to be effective?

S1 (01:07:56):
And so when I think about, um, how do you
make how do you make real things? I think humans
are craving real things, real analog experiences. And you see
like high end luxury brands now creating analog experience like
a book club at the Prada shop kind of thing. And,
and so there's this, there's like there is a movement

(01:08:19):
and an awareness that like, there's money to be made
from analog experiences. I think live performance and comedy and
live theater, um, will, I'm hoping, will kind of benefit
because when in a world of AI slop and when
you can't trust like now I see what did I see?
A friend of mine who could very well have. She's on,

(01:08:43):
she's on Strictly Come Dancing at the moment in the US.
U k and.

S2 (01:08:49):
Dancing with the stars is on us. They're running at
the same time.

S1 (01:08:51):
They are running at the same time. Rob Irwin famously
representing the country. Um, but yeah, Lavoie is a drag queen.
She's on strictly. The photo of her and Cher on
her social media. And I was like, I don't know
if this is real or not, because we now live
in a world where it could have been fake, it
could have been real. And then I stopped believing.

S2 (01:09:10):
I've found myself doing that, too. Just I just put
it down. I'm like, I don't want to have to
filter every single one to go. That's unbelievable. There's no
way that.

S1 (01:09:16):
Can't be real. And we'll tire of that very quickly
and we'll go, hopefully we'll put our phones down and
we'll go outside and we'll want to see something on
stage that we know is real. Yeah, because we can
see it with our own eyes.

S2 (01:09:29):
We're human people. And connecting in that space and connecting
with other things that are, you know, you also find interesting,
makes you feel less alone. It's real important. Um, look,
thanks for writing the book. You know, I'm bloody. I'm
bloody glad you did. I'm glad I get, you know,
it's important. Like, you signed off on your little Op-Ed
there and you went, yeah, I'm going to go do
this thing now. You've bloody done it.

S1 (01:09:50):
Well, because.

S3 (01:09:50):
There's that other idea where I'm like, hmm.

S1 (01:09:52):
Maybe I just won't. I did have a moment where
I was like, oh, do I want to do this?
Because it wasn't the playschool storytime thing. It was soured
with some, you know, it.

S2 (01:10:03):
Fucked up your day at the.

S1 (01:10:04):
Beach. Exactly. And, um, and so and then I, I
thought actually, weirdly, the power of art. I was in
the shower. I was feeling a bit down back in
that time, and I was like, oh, I don't know,
maybe I just want to I don't want to participate
in this anymore. It's gotten ugly. And then Beyonce's, um,
I had music playing and it was like Beyonce's, um,

(01:10:25):
Queens remix to You Won't Break My Soul. And she
was having this like, um, you can take it. You
were built for this. She does that, give it to me.
And I was like, yes, Beyonce. Yes, give it to me.
And it was the thing that re-inspired me and I
feel I felt kind of like a bit pathetic in
a way that just a few words from Beyonce and
a pop song were the thing that made me from
wanting to give up to wanting to succeed. But it was. And, um,

(01:10:49):
and I just thought, yeah, I'm going to write this book,
I'm going to release it, and I'm going to lead
with kindness, lead with love, and focus on, um, the
joy of it. And when I got to read this
book to a bunch of kids the other day in
the Botanic Gardens, it put it all in context. I
was like, this is joyous. It was so sweet. And
I got to the page, does anybody know what synchronized
swimming is? Yes. Archie, synchronized swimming is where two or

(01:11:12):
more people, uh, do choreographed dance moves in the water
in a competition style event. And I was like, thank you, Archie.
Very good answer. And just like the joy of it
and like the the beauty of kids, you just like
I want to I want to put the story into
the world, and I just want to participate in the

(01:11:32):
conversation more because I think the detractors would rather me
be quiet, be silent, go away, not participate. That's the
whole point of that moral panic. And I just thought, no,
I'm in a I'm going to be here. I'm going
to stand strong. And I want to I want to,
you know, think of all the people who have been
kind to me over the years and bring those forward
with me and everything I do.

S2 (01:11:50):
And I think the the most powerful thing in all
of that, Shane, is the detractors that you speak of
most definitely, because it is real easy to not lead
with kindness. It's really easy to be angry. That is
the simplest, easiest thing to do, to lead with kindness
and have empathy and appreciate nuance and be inquisitive. It's

(01:12:13):
actually quite difficult to do. However, it's the only thing
that's ever allowed us as a society to progress beyond
just chopping off people's bits and pieces for things we
don't agree with. And it's hard to do sometimes. It's
hard to be kind.

S1 (01:12:28):
And if I stop and think about why those people
say those things, I'm actually able to like, pull the
thread and understand, not agree with, but understand how they
got there. And so in that respect, I've sort of
taken a moment to try and find empathy for those

(01:12:50):
people who, you know, would say horrible things about me.
And I'm like, oh, actually, you you're probably, well, the
comment section, you're probably sitting there, you're feeling powerless, you're
trying to pay the bills, it's midnight, etc. and there's
something that you can write this comment and you feel
real good about yourself. You're like, oh yeah, take that,

(01:13:12):
and you've got a little sense of power in your
life that you didn't have before, the sort of the
larger architects of it all, you know, I think are
benefiting in other ways, and they just take advantage of
people's emotions to exploit that.

S2 (01:13:25):
Uh, I found a great relief once I started doing, uh,
metta meditation, loving kindness meditation and this sort of thing.
But it is hard to do but to model that
is very, very important. And, um, I hope you don't
have to then that I hope that is your legacy.

(01:13:45):
There may be a particular ruling of, you know, jenek
versus something 2026, um, which is the legacy that is
the legal precedent. I hope it doesn't come to that.
But you can't be what you can't see. And to
be someone under fire like you are, but to lead
with kindness instead. That's freaking beautiful, man.

S1 (01:14:03):
Thanks. And I've after I read the book to the
kids for the first time and saw how much they
loved the ibis, I went home and penned the second
book so.

S2 (01:14:15):
I could do a whole other podcast with you about ibis.
I love ibis, love ibis. I can't wait for the
second book. Yeah.

S1 (01:14:21):
Confetti and the bin chicken.

S2 (01:14:28):
And that was Shane Jenek. The book is called confetti
and the Rainbow Garden. It's a beautiful kids book. It's
very colorful. It's a delight to read. Wolfy does enjoy
reading it, and it's very well put together and has
a delightful message as well. Confetti and the Rainbow Garden.
It's a beautiful book, and I couldn't be more grateful
to have known Shane for such a long time. I've

(01:14:48):
known Shane since he was a teenager, and, um, it's
a real treat to be able to see him grow
and mature and become the, the powerhouse that that he is.
Thank you so much for listening. If you want a
bit of a kick, you can head on to the
YouTube and check out the Story Club page on YouTube.
The links in the show notes. That's where some fresh
stories Rosie Waterland story went up last week as well

(01:15:09):
as well. That's the show notes, so you can get
the link to buy. So what now? What? It's the
perfect Christmas gift. Thanks for listening to the show. If
it helped, please send it to someone like it, subscribe it,
rate it, follow it, whatever you can do. And I'll
see you back here on Monday.