June 21, 2024 • 51 mins
In this episode, Laura talks to Barbara about working after a cancer diagnosis and treatment.
Barbara shares her experience being diagnosed with breast cancer in 2005, and how she realised a need to support people with cancer going back to work. She also speaks about her organisation Working With Cancer, and describes the ways a person working with a diagnosis can access support, as well as some helpful practical tips.
Read more information about work and breast cancer.
Find more resources, support and information about Working With Cancer.
We’re Breast Cancer Now, the research and support charity. However you’re experiencing breast cancer, we’re here. For information and support, visit our website or phone our free helpline on 0808 800 6000 (UK only).
You can also watch this episode on YouTube.
Key Topics:
0:24 Laura introduces Barbara
2:21 Why Barbara set up Working With Cancer
4:21 The challenges a person with a breast cancer diagnosis can face returning to work
7:27 Should you disclose your breast cancer diagnosis to a new employer?
11:58 Can new employers look at your social media?
12:51 Support and benefits available for people who can't work because of treatment for breast cancer
14:15 What's the first thing to do when going back to work after a cancer diagnosis?
19:03 Telling colleagues about a breast cancer diagnosis
22:58 Dealing with redundancy when returning to work
26:46 Making long-term adjustments at work after treatment
30:25 Dealing with the mental side effects of breast cancer
35:21 Overcoming obstacles when dealing with cancer and work
38:13 Losing confidence because of cancer
39:49 Career coaching service from Working With Cancer
40:57 Resources for employers on supporting people with a breast cancer diagnosis
42:29 Tips for speaking to a colleague who has cancer
45:13 Supporting partners and families of people with cancer
49:00 How to find out more about Working With Cancer
49:26 What needs to change in breast cancer?
Barbara shares her experience being diagnosed with breast cancer in 2005, and how she realised a need to support people with cancer going back to work. She also speaks about her organisation Working With Cancer, and describes the ways a person working with a diagnosis can access support, as well as some helpful practical tips.
Read more information about work and breast cancer.
Find more resources, support and information about Working With Cancer.
We’re Breast Cancer Now, the research and support charity. However you’re experiencing breast cancer, we’re here. For information and support, visit our website or phone our free helpline on 0808 800 6000 (UK only).
You can also watch this episode on YouTube.
Key Topics:
0:24 Laura introduces Barbara
2:21 Why Barbara set up Working With Cancer
4:21 The challenges a person with a breast cancer diagnosis can face returning to work
7:27 Should you disclose your breast cancer diagnosis to a new employer?
11:58 Can new employers look at your social media?
12:51 Support and benefits available for people who can't work because of treatment for breast cancer
14:15 What's the first thing to do when going back to work after a cancer diagnosis?
19:03 Telling colleagues about a breast cancer diagnosis
22:58 Dealing with redundancy when returning to work
26:46 Making long-term adjustments at work after treatment
30:25 Dealing with the mental side effects of breast cancer
35:21 Overcoming obstacles when dealing with cancer and work
38:13 Losing confidence because of cancer
39:49 Career coaching service from Working With Cancer
40:57 Resources for employers on supporting people with a breast cancer diagnosis
42:29 Tips for speaking to a colleague who has cancer
45:13 Supporting partners and families of people with cancer
49:00 How to find out more about Working With Cancer
49:26 What needs to change in breast cancer?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast contains the personal stories,opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather
(00:05):
than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to theBreast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and
information to anyone affected by breast cancer.I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast
Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and authorand I live with secondary breast cancer. Today on
the podcast we're going to be talking aboutworking with cancer, that is, going back to work
(00:29):
after a cancer diagnosis and cancer treatment, orin my case, working whilst living with secondary
breast cancer. Working with cancer is a huge andoften overlooked part of the cancer experience
and so often companies and employers are notequipped to know how to best support employees
affected by cancer. Fortunately, there is anorganisation called Working With Cancer,
(00:53):
founded by Barbara Wilson, to support people withcancer going back to work, as well as giving
businesses and employers the tools to help any oftheir staff affected by cancer. Barbara Wilson is
a senior human resources professional with morethan 40 years experience. After she was diagnosed
with breast cancer in 2005, she set up a group tohelp people affected by cancer to return to work
(01:15):
successfully. She then set up Working With Cancerin 2014 as a social enterprise providing
coaching, training and consultancy services toemployers, employees and colleagues affected by
cancer, as well as carers and healthprofessionals. I met Barbara on a panel for Breast
Cancer Now, where we were both talking about thechallenges of working with breast cancer and I was
(01:38):
really interested to hear all the amazing workshe's been doing to help people like me to go back to
work. I have direct experience of working withcancer over the course of the last 11 years, having
been diagnosed with primary breast cancer at 29and with secondary breast cancer at 39. I've
experienced telling my colleagues and managersabout my diagnosis on the day I was diagnosed,
(02:00):
dealing with fatigue in the workplace, decidingwhether to wear a wig at work and most recently
figuring out how to work with incurable secondarybreast cancer. So I have a lot of questions and
hopefully some of yours will be answered here too.Barbara, thank you so much for joining us and
welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast. Thankyou and it's been lovely to have been asked to come
(02:20):
along today. Could you start by telling me why youset up working with cancer and what your main work
involves? Well, I set up working with cancer aftermy own experience of breast cancer, which you
mentioned happened in 2005. I was then working as ahuman resources director in the city, a very large
(02:41):
company. And there was absolutely no supportavailable to help me get back to work. And it was
incredibly difficult. And I thought, well, if I'mfinding this so difficult, there must be lots of
people in the same boat. There were no services.There was nothing around. And I went on the web as it
(03:01):
was then. And all there was was a website that Avonhad set up, which was advising women on how to do
their hair and makeup after a cancer diagnosis, abreast cancer diagnosis. That was the only
support globally. So I kind of thought, hang on,there's something here that I could pursue. So
(03:28):
that's what led me to set it up. And I provide with myassociates three major services to people with
cancer or affected by cancer, because it'sworking carers as well. One is one to one coaching
support to help people cope with all the impacts ofcancer, physical, psychological, the
(03:53):
challenges of managing work. Another isproviding training workshops, mainly for
employers. But we also work with a number ofcharities, including breast cancer now, which
we've done for several years now. And we alsoprovide consultancy advice to employers to write
policies for them around working cancer, provideinformation, best practice guides, that sort of
(04:19):
thing. Okay. And what do you think, aside from hairand makeup, what do you think are the main
challenges that a person returning to work duringor post cancer treatment faces in terms of going
back to work? I won't take all day. But there arelots. So there's a the fact that recovery from
(04:43):
cancer, as I'm sure you know, is not linear. Butthat I mean, is that it's not like if you've had a
cold or even like a broken leg, where each week,each week, it gets a bit better. So the one of the
issues with cancer, let's assume a primary cancertreatment, is that you can have good weeks and bad
(05:06):
weeks, have good days and bad days. And theexperience is different for everybody. You never
know how you're going to be one week to the next. Thedoctors don't actually know how you're going to be
because everyone is different. Everyone hastheir own physiology, their own sort of
psychological makeup. So it's about living in theunknown and not knowing how your recovery is going
(05:30):
to be. That makes it very difficult to speak about.So that's the second major issue, which is how do
you talk about cancer in the workplace? Mostpeople don't want to be victims. Most people don't
want to damage their career or their opportunityjob opportunities. So it's finding the right
words that people often find difficult to explainto their boss, their colleagues, actually their
(05:55):
family and friends as well, how they're doing. Youwant to give people a good story, but you may not be
feeling very good. So I think actuallycommunication is one of the most difficult
things, particularly in the workplace, becausenone of us are used about having those very
difficult conversations in a work context. Andpresumably most workforces and companies don't
(06:21):
have a specialised, a person who is specialised inreturning to work after cancer. I can't think of
any organisation. I mean a lot of companies have,for example, employee assistance programs,
which are very good in their own way, but they'revery trying to generic services where you pick up a
(06:42):
phone and then maybe somebody can provide somecounselling. HR professionals can, like any
human being, some are good, some are less good. Andsometimes one of the critical problems is that
people can be quite embarrassed, feel awkward,may have been back at work for some time, but
(07:03):
suffering quite severe side effects. So there's awhole number of issues people are dealing with
that makes it just very tough to talk about.Absolutely. I've experienced most of them
myself, I think, so very experienced in that area.One of the things that I experienced recently was
actually applying for a new job at a company,returning to a company after many years
(07:24):
freelance, and now with secondary breast cancer.If a person listening to this podcast is applying
for a new job, do they need to disclose that theyhave had primary breast cancer or that they
perhaps have secondary breast cancer or whatstage would you bring that up with your new
employer? Right, okay. So this is a classicquestion. I'm pleased you asked it. So the answer
(07:47):
is there is no requirement to disclose anything.That's very much a matter of personal judgment.
The issue is, is that if you're, for example, goingthrough treatment and you have to have go to
regular appointments, which you might well do forsecondary breast cancer. So we work with many
people in that situation they may be having.Weekly or monthly infusions they've got to travel
(08:11):
for, you're going to need the time off and you needto let your employer know because you have a right,
we might come on this later, you have a right to timeoff, not to be paid time off, but you have a right to
time off to attend medical appointments. So whenyou're applying for a new job, if you don't really
want to disclose your cancer for a whole number ofreasons, then my advice would always be that, and
(08:38):
you need to remember if you're on social media andbeen talking about your cancer, your employer
might well know about it. So there is an issue thereabout what you think the employer may or may not
know already. And you don't want to lie atinterview. I would definitely say never lie. But
assuming the employer doesn't know what I wouldsay is go through the interview process, if they
(09:01):
make a job offer, accept it orally and in writing ifyou can. But at the point when you accept it orally,
say to the employer, look I need to have aconversation with you about my personal
circumstances. Can I come in and see you or can wehave a chat on the phone, however it works and tell
(09:21):
them at that stage that you're having cancertreatment or whatever the situation is and you
need to let them know. And we often help people havethose sorts of conversations. But once you've
told your employer you have a cancer diagnosis oryou're having cancer treatment, you are covered
by the Equality Act. So if your employer were toturn around and say, I'm not employing you because
(09:45):
you've told me that, then they're breaking thelaw. Okay. So if you're really nervous about
saying anything up front, hold back until you havea job offer at which point you're secure. Because
just to sort of the psychology behind it, you wantto paint yourself as the most capable best person
for that job. And there's this real push and pullof, well, if I know I'm capable, I know I'm the best
(10:10):
person for this job. But if they know that I'm goingto need a certain amount of time to attend these
hospital appointments, then I feel if they knowthat then they, you know, I might be
disadvantaged. So it's a very difficult positionfor people to be in. It is difficult. And what I
would also say is it's quite difficult going forjob interviews when you're having what I call
quite extensive treatment, because as you'vesaid, you have to be at your best. So if you're still
(10:36):
having treatment, but you're feeling under theweather, you know, you're not at your best, but you
want to go to interview, then again, you areprotected. If you say I've got cancer, I, you know,
I need to interview virtually because it'sdifficult traveling in while I'm having
treatment. You are protected by the law. But theissue becomes is if you're not selected for, let's
(10:59):
say for the next round of interview, there's no wayof proving that telling the prospective employer
you've got cancer has been a reason for themturning you down. Of course. But, you know, there
are people who, let me just be clear, you know, veryoften the employer wants to take someone on
because of their skills, that's the reason theirskills, their talents, they bring themselves as
(11:24):
it were to the job. And many employers will be, youknow, they'll be very sad to hear that someone's
having treatment, but they'll still want to dotheir best to employ them. So I think it's
important to recognize that, you know,everyone's circumstances are different, but
there are some terrific employers out there who,who they're keen to employ the person and will do
(11:47):
their utmost to support that individual whilethey're having cancer treatment. So don't write
all employers off. Oh, no, absolutely not. I'vehad wonderful support in my, in my time in
employment. So, and slightly off topic, but justgoing back to social media, to what extent can a
prospective employer look at prospectiveemployees social media? And you know, is that?
(12:12):
It's in the public domain. So there's nothing tosay. And in fact, most, most recruitment
departments these days will probably do a quicksearch on social media. So anyone who has a blog or
social media, where they talk about it. Andobviously, it's a very, you could say a privileged
(12:32):
position to be able to go back to work at all withcancer, because many people can't because they
are, you know, the chemotherapy is debilitating,or, you know, they're just not physically able, or
they might have had quite a physical job beforetheir cancer diagnosis, and they just can't do
that anymore. What support or benefits are thereavailable for people who cannot go to work with
(12:57):
cancer? It does depend on everyone'scircumstances. And I'm not a benefits expert, can
I say, but there are, and what I would say is, I wouldcertainly if in that position, Macmillan have a
very good benefits helpline, and Maggies have apretty good benefits capability as well. So I
would always ask them or citizens advice, youknow, they have great resources and knowledge.
(13:22):
But the classic one, particularly for the selfemployed is the employment support allowance,
which is not means tested. It's not a lot of money.But if you've been paying national insurance
contributions for the last two years, you canapply for that. And for many people, particularly
the self employed, it can be a bit of a lifesaver tohave that. Yeah, that's great to know. Because,
(13:42):
you know, a lot, one of the things that a lot ofpeople don't think about with cancer is the
financial burden it has on people. It can behorrendous. And, you know, I think one of the
issues is that very often, people have to workbecause of their financial circumstances. And
it's very tough if they've run out of sick pay. And,and they just can't go in on certain days. So it is a
(14:07):
very, it is incredibly tough. So there arebenefits available, not as many as one would like
to see, I'm afraid to say. Yeah. Is there a firststep you could recommend to someone going back to
work for the first time after a cancer diagnosis orcancer treatment? Yes. Speak to your HR
(14:28):
department and your line manager. There was someresearch done some years ago, actually, now,
which showed that the individuals who made thebiggest difference as to whether somebody
returned to work successfully, the individualwas the line manager. So if a line manager wants you
(14:49):
back, they often move heaven and earth to get youback. If they don't want you back, it can be very
tough. But I would certainly always have aconversation at the point of diagnosis, because
you're, because you're protected, if you'reemployed, you're immediate, even if you're on a
short term contract, I would definitely letpeople know I've had a diagnosis of cancer. And it
(15:16):
might build well be you say, look, at this stage, Idon't know how ill I am, I'm still having tests, but
I need, I will need the time off to continue withthat. And from that point on, you are protected. So
it's important to let those people know as soon as.And when you say protected, you mean that they,
they, you can't lose your job because of it? Well,if they were, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean,
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there are some, a few evil people out there whomight say you're sacked, but potentially, then
you should seek legal advice or come to us. Andbasically, it's absolutely direct
discrimination, breaking the law, uncappedaward. Absolutely, you should, you know, not just
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take that line down. So it's really important tolet your employer know ASAP. And what about
employers? Because, you know, I sense that that'sthe area where, because once you've got cancer,
you start to learn about, you know, what it is andwhat your capabilities are. But for a manager who
(16:18):
has never dealt with cancer and who doesn't knowhow it affects you, it must be very difficult to
know how to, how to, how to approach an employee.Oh, it's horrendous. Absolutely. I mean, I know
I've been there. I remember one classic occasionwhen I was sitting at my desk in my previous job,
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eating a sandwich at my desk. And this guy kind ofrushed up to me and sort of sat down in the chair next
to me, I'm sort of mid sandwich, I think, tuna andsweet corn at the time, and said, Barbara, I've got
cancer, what am I going to do? And, you know, it's,it's incredibly difficult. I think a lot depends
on relationships. The best employers will knowthat somebody's having tests or there's
(17:03):
something up and will understand their employerwell enough to say, please tell me what's
happening. Not knowing an employee has cancer,and therefore, they didn't know that they were
having tests and appointments is not an excuse ifthere's a sort of legal case eventually comes up.
You know, I didn't know they needed adjustmentsbecause they didn't tell me they had cancer. Well,
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as a responsible employer, it's your duty tounderstand how how your employee is. It's
important, I think, for the employer to sit down ina quiet room, in a private space and say, look, come
on, tell me, I know there's something up, you needto let me know. Now, the only thing is, is those
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confidant conversations are confidential? Sothe next question for the manager to say is, apart
from saying, thank you for letting me know whatsupport have you got, what support can I give you,
is it would be really helpful if I can let HR know,for example. So to basically, for the employee to
(18:12):
understand who that person wants to know. So justagain, to go back to my own case, I remember telling
my boss I had cancer. And his first question was, doyou want people to know the or am well? And I said,
well, yes. And the reason being, we were goingthrough a major redundancy program. And I didn't
want my colleagues to think I'd been sacked or letgo. And he said, well, is it okay to know for people
(18:37):
to know it's cancer? And we're all different. Butin my perspective, it's not like a sort of social
disease, it was nothing to be ashamed of. So I said,well, yes, I've got nothing to hide. So I think if
people, I mean, not everyone's the same. And somepeople find it very tough, I know that. But if you
can be open and honest with people from like, I haveto tell you, it makes life so much easier. What
(19:03):
about colleagues? Because, you know, often you goto your manager, your manager knows. But maybe
some and the people who were on the team when youwere diagnosed know about it, but then new people
joined the team and you perhaps have ongoingsymptoms. But those new team members don't know
about it. But it does affect them because it mightmean that that more work is given to them to
compensate when you can't do it. I mean, would youadvise that the cancer patient tells their
(19:32):
colleagues or? It's really for the person to kindof discuss with the line manager how this is to be
communicated. So I mean, you know, classically,at first diagnosis, you might think of the people
you need, you want to tell who you might want, yourmanager to tell. And I always say, agree the
message. So what do you want said, you need to bewrite it down in an email, I want them to know this.
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But as new people come on board, I think it'simportant they should know why. So it's important
to again, preempt the problem, if you can, byletting your manager know that as new people come
on board, you're happy for them to be told or not.There are two problems that arises with teams. One
is that they don't know. And then they get veryresentful that somebody's having all this time
(20:18):
off, and they're getting all this extra work, andthey don't know why. So that's one problem. The
other problem, which is much more complex, is whenfor good reasons, a cover is brought in while
you're off sick. And the person doing the coverresents the fact that this is only a temporary job,
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they want to do it permanently. So they spend a lotof time building a relationship with a manager.
And the manager might quite like them might preferthem to the person who's off with cancer. So often
you get difficult relationships between theperson who's off sick, and their cover
arrangement and the manager. And it's importantfor in that sense, for in that case, for managers to
(21:06):
realise that the job is the person who's off sick.This is only a temporary arrangement. They have to
make that very clear, everyone from the outset,that this person is coming back and will be back.
So, you know, it's lovely to have them cover thejob, but the job is not theirs until the
(21:28):
circumstances change significantly as theywere. It's very similar to a maternity leave,
really, when a woman or paternity leave, you know,when someone goes off for a really long time and
someone comes in their place. And, you know, I canunderstand, we're in a place where we're being
more and more open, we're encouraged tocommunicate more, to be ourselves more at work.
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And so, if that person, the interim, you know, theacting person in that job is making great
relationships with their team and with theirmanager, it's incredibly difficult for them as
well, isn't it? Absolutely. And no, it's a toughsituation all around, but you have to understand
the facts of the situation. And, you know, it'slike a maternity cover. There are employers, you
(22:15):
know, I do, I have several cases where somebody'scome back to work after cancer after cancer
treatment, you know, they're back on their firstday or their first week and the manager says, it's
lovely to have you back, we've really missed you.But you need to understand that while you're away,
we've had to restructure. And actually, the jobyou were doing no longer exists. So we'll try and
(22:41):
find you another job if we can, but we'll have to seewhat we can do. And, you know, I'm afraid to say that
does happen. It happens with maternity cover, ithappens in these cases too. Thank God, not very
often, but I'm afraid to say it does happen. In thatcase, what should someone do? It's very tough. I
(23:03):
would always seek, again, legal advice and we canput people and Macmillan Cousin touch with
lawyers. The issue is, is it a genuine redundancy?Yeah, it's a very tough situation. It doesn't
happen as often as it used to, but it does happen.And working with cancer, you don't provide the
(23:24):
legal advice, but someone can contact you throughyour website and you will sort of point them in the
right direction. Yeah, we do actually have anon-practicing employment lawyer who provides
advice. Fantastic. She does do that and sheprovides up to an hour's advice per person. So
that's fantastic because I think often whensomeone when someone sees the word seek legal
advice, they think of it as this really scary, hugething. And you know, is this going to cost me loads
(23:49):
of money. So actually having that interim pointperson, it is really worthwhile. Yeah. So we have
our own in-house person, a wonderful personcalled Genevieve Isaacson. And also we have
relationships with two firms of lawyers who, ifthings are getting really nasty, where we can seek
advice from them and they're lovely people andthey're not scary lawyers, I have to say.
(24:12):
Hopefully it won't come to that for anyone who'slistening to this podcast. I'm Gareth, the editor
of Vita magazine. Vita is Breast Cancer Now'smagazine for anyone affected by breast cancer.
It's full of inspiring real life stories, experttips on coping with the effects of breast cancer
and articles on health and well-being. In our newspring issue, you can read about a mother and
(24:37):
daughter who were both diagnosed with breastcancer 12 years apart. Find out the latest in
breast cancer research, get tips on coping withfatigue, read about the benefits of getting
outdoors, and much more. Subscribe to Vita Now atBreastCancerNow.org forward slash Vita. You
(24:57):
mentioned at the beginning that cancer recoveryis not linear. And that was absolutely the case for
me. And I, so after my primary diagnosis when I was29, I then had 10 years where I was effectively
cured. I went back to work. I got up, first of all, Iwent back to university and did a master's degree
because you know, I wanted to do that. But then Iwent back to work, got a full time job and my hair
(25:23):
grew back. And I looked like a normal employee, anormal person, a contributing member to the team
and I was working really, really hard. And thepeople that knew me before obviously knew my
history. But I didn't sort of actively bring it upvery often. And there were new people that came
into my working life who didn't know anythingabout it. I used to travel a lot with my job and it was
(25:48):
very hard work and intense. And there were timeswhen the fatigue really, really hit me. I was
taking to Moxifen during that time. I had all theparamedic and pausal symptoms, not to mention the
knock on effects of chemotherapy, radiotherapy,surgery years and years later and all of that stuff
piles up on you and keeps on going and going. So I hadtimes when I really struggled. But because I was, I
(26:15):
wasn't a cancer patient, I was discharged fromhospital and I found it incredibly difficult to
know what I was entitled to. I did haveconversations with my managers and with HR over
the years. But because I was supposedly wellagain, I didn't feel I had a right to ask for time off
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or working from home. This is before the pandemic.What can someone do to find out? Maybe someone who
has lived for a long time after their cancertreatment but is still struggling in some ways.
What can they do? You're covered by the EqualityAct for life. So I'm still covered by it and you will
be covered by it. Anyone who's had a cancerdiagnosis. And you can ask for adjustments or
(27:08):
mention that you need adjustments when you needthem. You can have them either permanently or
temporarily. So in your case, it would just be aquestion of saying to employer, if you wish to, you
don't have to. We all manage to a certain extentsome of the side effects of cancer treatment. We
live them forever. I still have menopausalsymptoms. But you can say to your employer, look, I
(27:36):
have had cancer treatment X years ago. I stillsuffer the side effects of that treatment,
whether it's fatigue or neuropathy or whatever itis. I mean, there are people who have bowel cancer
treatment who'll be living with a stoma. And wouldsay then to your employer, there are going to be
(27:59):
occasional days. I'm just going to need to workfrom home or have a day's sick leave, whatever, or
just not come into the office, not any work, do anywork that day. Because of that, I will let you know
when that happens. But be aware, I will need to dothat occasionally from time to time. And then it's
a question of just communicating that with youremployer and doing it. But you have that right
(28:22):
because of your cancer diagnosis to request thoseadjustments. And what about people who really,
really struggle to bring it up? Like they can'ttalk about it. Can it suffice just to send an email?
Can you do this? A lot depends on your relationshipwith your employer. I mean, with your manager, and
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of course, the problem often comes when yourmanager, you've had a wonderful relationship
with, is promoted or moves on, and then you get a newone. But that right continues. I would always have
a, I'm a great believer in having an eyeballconversation with someone and letting them know
in person, rather than by email. I mean, you mightsay, I'm going to have to do this from time to time.
(29:03):
And then there's an understanding, as long as youdon't kind of take ridiculous advantage of it,
that if you're having a bad, a bad week or whateverit is that you can say, look, I'm just going to have
to go home. So I think it's important not to just cryon the soldier on. Particularly if you're doing a
(29:26):
demanding or difficult job, because that's whenyou make mistakes. And, you know, I think it's easy
to kind of ignore symptoms sometimes, butequally, it's important to kind of be body aware,
you know, be aware of yourself. If you're having abad day, and you know, you know, it's pressure of
(29:47):
work, but the treatment is still affecting you,then say so, and make the time to kind of do what's
right for you. Yeah. Perhaps if you are one of thosepeople who really struggles to bring up a
difficult conversation like that, you could sendan email saying, I'd like to talk to you about
something. And then, and then, and then bring it upso you feel you've sort of paved the way for it.
(30:10):
Yeah. I think it's always, what's that phrase,wicket rolling. Oh, I don't know that one. Wicket
rolling, it's kind of prepare the ground. I'm agreat believer in no surprises. Yes. You know, it
surprises are not good for anyone, neither for younor your employer. You know, if you're feeling
fatigued or you feel like you just can't go to workthat day, or you need to work from home because, you
(30:32):
know, your body is telling you that it's hadenough, and it can't cope physically. That is one
thing you can talk to your team about. But whatabout mentally? Because actually, the
psychological emotional effects of cancer stayforever in varying degrees. But, you know, and you
(30:52):
might be suffering from depression, anxiety,lack of motivation. Do you have any thoughts for
them? I think the psychological impact of canceris totally misunderstood by the wider community.
People think of cancer as a physical illness, fullstop. If I take my case again as an example, I, when I
(31:15):
was diagnosed, I had no idea I had cancer. I went fora routine mammogram, and suddenly it was, you
know, stage, wasn't stage two, but I still hadchemotherapy, radiotherapy. Now, the issue was
the doctors tell you at the end of treatment, oh,we're all done, you're fine. But you don't know
you're fine. There's no test, not really, that cansay you're cancer free. They use that wonderful
(31:39):
phrase, remission, you're in remission. So one ofthe issues most people have is depression, loss of
confidence, anxiety, often caused byconfronting your own mortality, which is not fun
(31:59):
for anybody, and the fear of the cancer comingback. And, you know, I still, I know, it was it, how
many years ago is it now? You're coming up to 20, Iguess. Coming up to 20 years. You know, I was at a
conference the other day, a cancer conference,and a doctor, an eminent doctor was sitting next to
(32:23):
me, and he laughingly said, well, of course,cancer can come back over 20 years after your
initial diagnosis. And I thought, thanks fortelling me that. But there is that issue that that
fear never goes away. It might, it might lessen abit, but you know, aches and pains that can't be
(32:43):
explained are the common issue that people feelhave to cope with after a cancer diagnosis. And
that fear is very difficult to talk about. But Ithink it is important to let your family and
friends and colleagues know that cancer isn'tover when treatment's finished. You know, this
(33:05):
is, it's a bit like the iceberg, you know, whenyou've the treatment is just the very tip of the
iceberg, the kind of complexity of the physicaland emotional side effects you feel after
treatment is totally misunderstood, notunderstood. And it takes most people many years to
(33:26):
deal with that. So, so when people say to me, and Ithink I'm going mad, you know, because of the most
confident people in the world can suddenly havelost their confidence. They're depressed,
they're anxious. And they go to the GP for tablets.Now, sometimes, you know, tablets can be helpful,
let's be clear. But these are normal feelings thatyou can work through and learn how to manage and not
(33:53):
to feel those things after cancer treatment, youwouldn't be human. But I do believe that part of the
problem as well is, you know, people who can be veryill can look terrific. And so often people just
think you're well, you know, they don't actuallyrealise what's going on within you, not just
(34:15):
physically, but emotionally. So, I mean, how doessomeone communicate that to their employer? I
think it's really important if you can to explainsome of that. You know, again, we can help people
find the words. It's not that difficult. And thereare lots of very, very good articles about the
psychological impact of cancer, one by quite afamous clinical psychologist called Peter
(34:38):
Harvey, which is called something like Now Afterthe Treatment Finishes, Then What. And there's
actually a very good video on our website with alady called Dr. Jane Clark, who's also a clinical
psychologist about the impact, thepsychological impact of cancer. I think talking
about these things is important, not only becauseit gets you to sort of explain it to other people and
(35:05):
you feel better for doing that, but it's also aboutincreasing their understanding. I mean, the
classic thing is most people, as I said, think thatonce treatment finishes, oh, it's great, we've
rung a bell, you're well. I'm afraid that is very,very rarely the case. Psychological or physical.
This is all supposing that the employer or the HRteam are understanding and good communicators
(35:33):
and open to listening. But there will be many, manycases where people work for companies that don't
have an HR department, it might just be a very smallrestaurant or it could be a factory or an office
where someone's manager just doesn't want toknow, just doesn't have the time to listen. What
(35:54):
other things people can do when there are theirstories about their cancer? It's very tough. I
think it's important to assert your rights.There's plenty of websites and information which
states somebody's right. One of the things we tryand do is kind of empower people to say it a nice way.
(36:17):
Look, you need to understand that my cancer is arecognized disability and under UK law, I'm
entitled to these things. There's a way ofasserting these things in a way. We're not being
aggressive, you're not being antagonistic, butyou're telling people what's due to you. That's
what you have to do. There are still some very bademployers out there, but I say particularly small
(36:45):
companies, actually some small companies can beterrific because they know their employees
really well very often and can then tailor thingsto suit them. Sometimes it's the big
organizations who treat people like numbers,like units of production who are rather less good
at doing the right thing. We do a lot of work, as domany of the other cancer charities, in running
(37:10):
workshops for employers, for HR teams on how tosupport somebody in the workplace with cancer.
There's you touched on confidence and how cancercan affect people's confidence and in the
workplace, that is everything because people canfeel like they can't do their job when they are in
(37:34):
fact completely capable of doing their job. When Iwas diagnosed with secondary breast cancer in
2022, I've had this real feeling that my career wasover, that I was coming towards the end of my life, I
was not going to have new jobs and newopportunities. Now 18 months later, I've been
(37:56):
very fortunate with my treatment, which hasworked really well. I've got a new job, a food
magazine, which is a dream job. I'm presentingthis podcast. I'm doing in some ways reaching the
peak of my career, but I have really suffered withconfidence, I think, over that period. What would
you say to someone who is really suffering withlack of confidence because of their cancer? I
(38:21):
think it's realising that fundamentally you'restill the same person, that you have the same
skills and talents. You may need to manage thingslike, you know, there's often fatigue, often goes
hand in hand with kind of some cognitive problems.You become more forgetful, you're tired, and
therefore you forget more. All of those things canbe managed, but the essence of Laura is still
(38:46):
there, and it's important that you understandthat you're the same person, you're just dealing
with a few more things, but you have the sameability. I remember, I mean, I was diagnosed a lot
older than you, but I was 53, and I thought, who'sgoing to employ a middle-aged woman with cancer,
(39:09):
you know, end of my career? And I remember, youknow, having, I was leaving my job at the time for a
variety of reasons I won't go into, and saying toheadhunters, you know, am I employable? I said, of
course you're employable. And I mean, I had lots ofjob offers that I never thought I would get,
(39:31):
because fundamentally, I had a track record, I waswell known at that particular time, but I was still
me. I just had days when I wasn't feeling very well,so it's important to recognise that you're the
same person, you're just dealing with a difficultillness. In terms of the services you offer, do you
(39:52):
offer a sort of career counselling, you know, forpeople who are out of work or look at, because often
people will give up their job, you know, they'llsay, well, I was having treatment, it was
difficult with my, my employer was beingdifficult, so I decided to give up my job and focus
(40:13):
on my treatment. So yeah, we provide careercoaching, we don't, we don't get people jobs, but
we help people find jobs. One of, what several ofour team, and by the way, all the team members of the
team who work with me, we've all either had canceror a profound experience of cancer as working
carers, but several members of the coaching teamare career counsellors as well, so they can give
(40:39):
people a lot of help in understanding how to do yourCV, how to do an interview, how to network, how to
use social media productively, all the kind ofways of kind of getting a job, and we've helped many
people get back into work. If you are a manager or anHR professional, for example, or a business owner
(41:02):
listening to this podcast and you think, wow, Ineed to provide some support to the people in my
company returning to work with cancer, what canthose people do? Do they approach you? Do you come
in and do trainings with them? How does it work?Yeah, we, if they contact us through our website
or, you know, then what we will do is that there arethree, so three areas where we can focus. One is we
(41:25):
can look at policies and practices, make surethey're compliant with UK law. On sickness
absence, policies often aren't reallycompliant. We can provide training workshops of
any length from, you know, half an hour to a wholeday. And as part of that, we can help set up things
(41:46):
like cancer buddy networks as well withinorganizations. And we support working carers as
well. And then there's kind of our one to onecoaching as well. And when we're working with
employers, we have absolutely unique servicebecause what we do, if you remember I was talking
earlier about the line manager's role isabsolutely essential. So what we do when we're
(42:06):
coaching an individual is their coaching isconfidential. But in parallel, we provide
unlimited support in terms of advice and guidanceto their manager and HR on how best to support that
person. So there's a kind of three wayrelationship. And that works really well. Okay,
(42:29):
when it comes to talking about cancer, there are alot of cliches. There are a lot of things that
people do. And people can say the wrong thing, orthey can do the head tilt. Are there any general no
knows or any things that people should always sayin the work environment to someone who has cancer
(42:49):
or has had cancer? Well, the classic the classicone is just I want to say how are you now? Now that we
tend in this country to go through a sort of littlekind of dance of how are you I'm fine. Great. And by
the time you've said I'm fine, the person who'sasked how are you was actually walked down the
corridor doesn't hear the reply. So I always say,how are you? And then look them in the eye and say,
(43:14):
how are you? And then and I want a proper answer as itwere. And sometimes people might say out of 10, how
are you? And you say, are you not allowed to sayseven out of 10? Because most people say seven out
of 10. So it's important. I think silence withcancer, silence is not golden. Okay, it's
important. Even if you say the wrong thing is tounderstand how someone is doing the kind of
(43:40):
classic manager approach is often I didn't want toupset them. So I thought I'd say nothing. I thought
I'd leave them in peace for six months. Okay. I'vetold them I only want them to come back to work when
they're 100% fit. Well, when are you ever 100% fit?So I think those are things which, that kind of
(44:10):
laissez-faire attitude is not helpful. But I'dalways say, but even if you say the wrong thing,
best to say something. Absolutely. But theclassic thing is you'll be fine. You know,
positive. I know someone who had that and theydied. Yeah. I know about cancer because my mother
(44:39):
oblique father oblique best friend oblique thirdcousin twice removed had cancer. No, you don't
know about cancer because everyone is different.So there are I mean, there's lots of all the
websites they've got kind of howlers. And theclassic one, I think we were talking earlier
before the podcast was, you know, they lost theirbattle or they're fighting, they're fighting
(45:04):
cancer. Most people I know, we're all different,but most people I know with cancer don't like that
kind of metaphor of a battle. We've talked quite alot about patients. But actually, what about
people, partners of people with cancer, parentsof people with cancer, children of people with
cancer, what support do you provide to them? Wesupport them as well. So in some for some
(45:31):
employees, we're supporting not only the personwith cancer, but also their carer. And we support,
you know, depends who's the employee. I thinkcarers have a very, very tough time. I mean, it
depends on, again, the relationship with theperson they're caring for. I think parents with
children have the toughest time of all because Imean, in all cases, the stress is horrendous. And
(45:54):
most employers are, I'm afraid to say, lesssympathetic. And the rights of carers aren't
quite as good as for people with carer as those whohave cancer. So the rights of carers are not as
strong. Many carers will just take sick leave andhide the fact that they're a carer. And when you say
(46:14):
carer, do you mean carer in the official term or canthat also mean, you know, someone's partner who
takes them to hospital every time but andtherefore needs some time off work is sort of
unofficial carer? Yeah. I mean, most, most, mostcompanies will have sort of there are policies
around dependent dependence or kind ofunofficial carers having time off, you know,
(46:35):
emergency time off to support someone. But mostcompanies don't have carers policies. We're
trying to sort of persuade a few organizations nowto do that. So yes, we do support carers and
supported a significant number. And it's oftenagain, just helping them understand what rights
(47:00):
they do have, what the what the options are forhaving time off. And for generally making sure
they talk to their employer about what's going on.Because again, just disappearing without kind of
telling people what's going on in your life makesmakes people very jumpy, very nervous about what
(47:22):
is happening. So I think it's important to be openif you can, but I can't pretend it's an easy, it's
easy for carers at all. But it's certainlysomething that people don't necessarily think
about when it comes to cancer because it affectscouples and families so much more than, you know,
it often affects the partner as much as it affectsthe person with cancer. And they might also have to
(47:45):
take time off work. There might also be a hugefinance financial burden. So there's a there's a
very good again video on our website by one of myassociates, Sarah Dawson, whose son died of
sarcoma when he was 17, who had breast cancer lastyear, and whose husband now has melanoma, and
(48:08):
talks about life working and caring, caringsomeone with cancer and working with cancer. And
it is incredibly tough. And I think it's importantfor employers to recognize, I mean, there's
something like five five million plus carers inthis country who are officially carers who are
(48:29):
trying to cope with work and cancer, and they needsupport. I mean, the workforce is we're not
exactly overloaded with workforce at the moment.I mean, we're desperate to try and keep people
working and engaged with work. So I thinkemployers owe it to themselves, as much as to the
carers, to try and make sure they're providing allthe support they can to keep those people, if not
(48:52):
actively engaged with work because of what'shappening to keep them employed, so they can
return to work at the appropriate point. And ifsomeone would like to contact working with
cancer, ask questions, get in touch with you,where can they find you? So they can go to our
website, which is www.workingwithcancer.co.uk. And we're also on Twitter, LinkedIn,
(49:19):
Instagram and TikTok. Fantastic. Well, we willput all of those links in the show notes. Thank you.
I would just like to ask you one final question thatwe've been asking all of our guests on the breast
cancer now podcast, which is, what would you say isthe one thing that needs to change in terms of
breast cancer in the coming years? So it might besomething to do with finding a cure, it might be
(49:44):
something to do with mental health, it might betreatment? Well, ideally, they'd be a cure, but
I'm sufficient realist to know that I don't thinkcancer will ever disappear. I think it'll always
be part of our lives. But I think what would make adifference is to have treatments that aren't so
invasive and difficult to live with. So I think theissue is how can we make treatment something that
(50:12):
people can cope with more easily? Great answer.Thank you. Barbara, thank you so much for joining
us on the breast cancer now podcast. My pleasure.It's been lovely. Thank you for asking me to take
part. If you enjoyed this episode of the breastcancer now podcast, make sure to subscribe on
Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get yourpodcasts. Please also leave us a rating or review
(50:35):
on Apple podcasts and perhaps recommend it tosomeone you think would find it helpful. The more
people we can reach, the more we can get breastcancer now vital resources to those who need them.
You can find support and information on ourwebsite, breastcancernow.org, and you can
follow breast cancer now on social media at breastcancer now. All the links mentioned in this
(50:56):
episode are listed in the show notes in yourpodcast app. Thank you for listening to the breast
cancer now podcast.
This podcast contains the personal stories,opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather
(00:05):
than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to theBreast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and
information to anyone affected by breast cancer.I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast
Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and authorand I live with secondary breast cancer. Today on
the podcast we're going to be talking aboutworking with cancer, that is, going back to work
(00:29):
after a cancer diagnosis and cancer treatment, orin my case, working whilst living with secondary
breast cancer. Working with cancer is a huge andoften overlooked part of the cancer experience
and so often companies and employers are notequipped to know how to best support employees
affected by cancer. Fortunately, there is anorganisation called Working With Cancer,
(00:53):
founded by Barbara Wilson, to support people withcancer going back to work, as well as giving
businesses and employers the tools to help any oftheir staff affected by cancer. Barbara Wilson is
a senior human resources professional with morethan 40 years experience. After she was diagnosed
with breast cancer in 2005, she set up a group tohelp people affected by cancer to return to work
(01:15):
successfully. She then set up Working With Cancerin 2014 as a social enterprise providing
coaching, training and consultancy services toemployers, employees and colleagues affected by
cancer, as well as carers and healthprofessionals. I met Barbara on a panel for Breast
Cancer Now, where we were both talking about thechallenges of working with breast cancer and I was
(01:38):
really interested to hear all the amazing workshe's been doing to help people like me to go back to
work. I have direct experience of working withcancer over the course of the last 11 years, having
been diagnosed with primary breast cancer at 29and with secondary breast cancer at 39. I've
experienced telling my colleagues and managersabout my diagnosis on the day I was diagnosed,
(02:00):
dealing with fatigue in the workplace, decidingwhether to wear a wig at work and most recently
figuring out how to work with incurable secondarybreast cancer. So I have a lot of questions and
hopefully some of yours will be answered here too.Barbara, thank you so much for joining us and
welcome to the Breast Cancer Now podcast. Thankyou and it's been lovely to have been asked to come
(02:20):
along today. Could you start by telling me why youset up working with cancer and what your main work
involves? Well, I set up working with cancer aftermy own experience of breast cancer, which you
mentioned happened in 2005. I was then working as ahuman resources director in the city, a very large
(02:41):
company. And there was absolutely no supportavailable to help me get back to work. And it was
incredibly difficult. And I thought, well, if I'mfinding this so difficult, there must be lots of
people in the same boat. There were no services.There was nothing around. And I went on the web as it
(03:01):
was then. And all there was was a website that Avonhad set up, which was advising women on how to do
their hair and makeup after a cancer diagnosis, abreast cancer diagnosis. That was the only
support globally. So I kind of thought, hang on,there's something here that I could pursue. So
(03:28):
that's what led me to set it up. And I provide with myassociates three major services to people with
cancer or affected by cancer, because it'sworking carers as well. One is one to one coaching
support to help people cope with all the impacts ofcancer, physical, psychological, the
(03:53):
challenges of managing work. Another isproviding training workshops, mainly for
employers. But we also work with a number ofcharities, including breast cancer now, which
we've done for several years now. And we alsoprovide consultancy advice to employers to write
policies for them around working cancer, provideinformation, best practice guides, that sort of
(04:19):
thing. Okay. And what do you think, aside from hairand makeup, what do you think are the main
challenges that a person returning to work duringor post cancer treatment faces in terms of going
back to work? I won't take all day. But there arelots. So there's a the fact that recovery from
(04:43):
cancer, as I'm sure you know, is not linear. Butthat I mean, is that it's not like if you've had a
cold or even like a broken leg, where each week,each week, it gets a bit better. So the one of the
issues with cancer, let's assume a primary cancertreatment, is that you can have good weeks and bad
(05:06):
weeks, have good days and bad days. And theexperience is different for everybody. You never
know how you're going to be one week to the next. Thedoctors don't actually know how you're going to be
because everyone is different. Everyone hastheir own physiology, their own sort of
psychological makeup. So it's about living in theunknown and not knowing how your recovery is going
(05:30):
to be. That makes it very difficult to speak about.So that's the second major issue, which is how do
you talk about cancer in the workplace? Mostpeople don't want to be victims. Most people don't
want to damage their career or their opportunityjob opportunities. So it's finding the right
words that people often find difficult to explainto their boss, their colleagues, actually their
(05:55):
family and friends as well, how they're doing. Youwant to give people a good story, but you may not be
feeling very good. So I think actuallycommunication is one of the most difficult
things, particularly in the workplace, becausenone of us are used about having those very
difficult conversations in a work context. Andpresumably most workforces and companies don't
(06:21):
have a specialised, a person who is specialised inreturning to work after cancer. I can't think of
any organisation. I mean a lot of companies have,for example, employee assistance programs,
which are very good in their own way, but they'revery trying to generic services where you pick up a
(06:42):
phone and then maybe somebody can provide somecounselling. HR professionals can, like any
human being, some are good, some are less good. Andsometimes one of the critical problems is that
people can be quite embarrassed, feel awkward,may have been back at work for some time, but
(07:03):
suffering quite severe side effects. So there's awhole number of issues people are dealing with
that makes it just very tough to talk about.Absolutely. I've experienced most of them
myself, I think, so very experienced in that area.One of the things that I experienced recently was
actually applying for a new job at a company,returning to a company after many years
(07:24):
freelance, and now with secondary breast cancer.If a person listening to this podcast is applying
for a new job, do they need to disclose that theyhave had primary breast cancer or that they
perhaps have secondary breast cancer or whatstage would you bring that up with your new
employer? Right, okay. So this is a classicquestion. I'm pleased you asked it. So the answer
(07:47):
is there is no requirement to disclose anything.That's very much a matter of personal judgment.
The issue is, is that if you're, for example, goingthrough treatment and you have to have go to
regular appointments, which you might well do forsecondary breast cancer. So we work with many
people in that situation they may be having.Weekly or monthly infusions they've got to travel
(08:11):
for, you're going to need the time off and you needto let your employer know because you have a right,
we might come on this later, you have a right to timeoff, not to be paid time off, but you have a right to
time off to attend medical appointments. So whenyou're applying for a new job, if you don't really
want to disclose your cancer for a whole number ofreasons, then my advice would always be that, and
(08:38):
you need to remember if you're on social media andbeen talking about your cancer, your employer
might well know about it. So there is an issue thereabout what you think the employer may or may not
know already. And you don't want to lie atinterview. I would definitely say never lie. But
assuming the employer doesn't know what I wouldsay is go through the interview process, if they
(09:01):
make a job offer, accept it orally and in writing ifyou can. But at the point when you accept it orally,
say to the employer, look I need to have aconversation with you about my personal
circumstances. Can I come in and see you or can wehave a chat on the phone, however it works and tell
(09:21):
them at that stage that you're having cancertreatment or whatever the situation is and you
need to let them know. And we often help people havethose sorts of conversations. But once you've
told your employer you have a cancer diagnosis oryou're having cancer treatment, you are covered
by the Equality Act. So if your employer were toturn around and say, I'm not employing you because
(09:45):
you've told me that, then they're breaking thelaw. Okay. So if you're really nervous about
saying anything up front, hold back until you havea job offer at which point you're secure. Because
just to sort of the psychology behind it, you wantto paint yourself as the most capable best person
for that job. And there's this real push and pullof, well, if I know I'm capable, I know I'm the best
(10:10):
person for this job. But if they know that I'm goingto need a certain amount of time to attend these
hospital appointments, then I feel if they knowthat then they, you know, I might be
disadvantaged. So it's a very difficult positionfor people to be in. It is difficult. And what I
would also say is it's quite difficult going forjob interviews when you're having what I call
quite extensive treatment, because as you'vesaid, you have to be at your best. So if you're still
(10:36):
having treatment, but you're feeling under theweather, you know, you're not at your best, but you
want to go to interview, then again, you areprotected. If you say I've got cancer, I, you know,
I need to interview virtually because it'sdifficult traveling in while I'm having
treatment. You are protected by the law. But theissue becomes is if you're not selected for, let's
(10:59):
say for the next round of interview, there's no wayof proving that telling the prospective employer
you've got cancer has been a reason for themturning you down. Of course. But, you know, there
are people who, let me just be clear, you know, veryoften the employer wants to take someone on
because of their skills, that's the reason theirskills, their talents, they bring themselves as
(11:24):
it were to the job. And many employers will be, youknow, they'll be very sad to hear that someone's
having treatment, but they'll still want to dotheir best to employ them. So I think it's
important to recognize that, you know,everyone's circumstances are different, but
there are some terrific employers out there who,who they're keen to employ the person and will do
(11:47):
their utmost to support that individual whilethey're having cancer treatment. So don't write
all employers off. Oh, no, absolutely not. I'vehad wonderful support in my, in my time in
employment. So, and slightly off topic, but justgoing back to social media, to what extent can a
prospective employer look at prospectiveemployees social media? And you know, is that?
(12:12):
It's in the public domain. So there's nothing tosay. And in fact, most, most recruitment
departments these days will probably do a quicksearch on social media. So anyone who has a blog or
social media, where they talk about it. Andobviously, it's a very, you could say a privileged
(12:32):
position to be able to go back to work at all withcancer, because many people can't because they
are, you know, the chemotherapy is debilitating,or, you know, they're just not physically able, or
they might have had quite a physical job beforetheir cancer diagnosis, and they just can't do
that anymore. What support or benefits are thereavailable for people who cannot go to work with
(12:57):
cancer? It does depend on everyone'scircumstances. And I'm not a benefits expert, can
I say, but there are, and what I would say is, I wouldcertainly if in that position, Macmillan have a
very good benefits helpline, and Maggies have apretty good benefits capability as well. So I
would always ask them or citizens advice, youknow, they have great resources and knowledge.
(13:22):
But the classic one, particularly for the selfemployed is the employment support allowance,
which is not means tested. It's not a lot of money.But if you've been paying national insurance
contributions for the last two years, you canapply for that. And for many people, particularly
the self employed, it can be a bit of a lifesaver tohave that. Yeah, that's great to know. Because,
(13:42):
you know, a lot, one of the things that a lot ofpeople don't think about with cancer is the
financial burden it has on people. It can behorrendous. And, you know, I think one of the
issues is that very often, people have to workbecause of their financial circumstances. And
it's very tough if they've run out of sick pay. And,and they just can't go in on certain days. So it is a
(14:07):
very, it is incredibly tough. So there arebenefits available, not as many as one would like
to see, I'm afraid to say. Yeah. Is there a firststep you could recommend to someone going back to
work for the first time after a cancer diagnosis orcancer treatment? Yes. Speak to your HR
(14:28):
department and your line manager. There was someresearch done some years ago, actually, now,
which showed that the individuals who made thebiggest difference as to whether somebody
returned to work successfully, the individualwas the line manager. So if a line manager wants you
(14:49):
back, they often move heaven and earth to get youback. If they don't want you back, it can be very
tough. But I would certainly always have aconversation at the point of diagnosis, because
you're, because you're protected, if you'reemployed, you're immediate, even if you're on a
short term contract, I would definitely letpeople know I've had a diagnosis of cancer. And it
(15:16):
might build well be you say, look, at this stage, Idon't know how ill I am, I'm still having tests, but
I need, I will need the time off to continue withthat. And from that point on, you are protected. So
it's important to let those people know as soon as.And when you say protected, you mean that they,
they, you can't lose your job because of it? Well,if they were, yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean,
(15:37):
there are some, a few evil people out there whomight say you're sacked, but potentially, then
you should seek legal advice or come to us. Andbasically, it's absolutely direct
discrimination, breaking the law, uncappedaward. Absolutely, you should, you know, not just
(15:58):
take that line down. So it's really important tolet your employer know ASAP. And what about
employers? Because, you know, I sense that that'sthe area where, because once you've got cancer,
you start to learn about, you know, what it is andwhat your capabilities are. But for a manager who
(16:18):
has never dealt with cancer and who doesn't knowhow it affects you, it must be very difficult to
know how to, how to, how to approach an employee.Oh, it's horrendous. Absolutely. I mean, I know
I've been there. I remember one classic occasionwhen I was sitting at my desk in my previous job,
(16:38):
eating a sandwich at my desk. And this guy kind ofrushed up to me and sort of sat down in the chair next
to me, I'm sort of mid sandwich, I think, tuna andsweet corn at the time, and said, Barbara, I've got
cancer, what am I going to do? And, you know, it's,it's incredibly difficult. I think a lot depends
on relationships. The best employers will knowthat somebody's having tests or there's
(17:03):
something up and will understand their employerwell enough to say, please tell me what's
happening. Not knowing an employee has cancer,and therefore, they didn't know that they were
having tests and appointments is not an excuse ifthere's a sort of legal case eventually comes up.
You know, I didn't know they needed adjustmentsbecause they didn't tell me they had cancer. Well,
(17:27):
as a responsible employer, it's your duty tounderstand how how your employee is. It's
important, I think, for the employer to sit down ina quiet room, in a private space and say, look, come
on, tell me, I know there's something up, you needto let me know. Now, the only thing is, is those
(17:49):
confidant conversations are confidential? Sothe next question for the manager to say is, apart
from saying, thank you for letting me know whatsupport have you got, what support can I give you,
is it would be really helpful if I can let HR know,for example. So to basically, for the employee to
(18:12):
understand who that person wants to know. So justagain, to go back to my own case, I remember telling
my boss I had cancer. And his first question was, doyou want people to know the or am well? And I said,
well, yes. And the reason being, we were goingthrough a major redundancy program. And I didn't
want my colleagues to think I'd been sacked or letgo. And he said, well, is it okay to know for people
(18:37):
to know it's cancer? And we're all different. Butin my perspective, it's not like a sort of social
disease, it was nothing to be ashamed of. So I said,well, yes, I've got nothing to hide. So I think if
people, I mean, not everyone's the same. And somepeople find it very tough, I know that. But if you
can be open and honest with people from like, I haveto tell you, it makes life so much easier. What
(19:03):
about colleagues? Because, you know, often you goto your manager, your manager knows. But maybe
some and the people who were on the team when youwere diagnosed know about it, but then new people
joined the team and you perhaps have ongoingsymptoms. But those new team members don't know
about it. But it does affect them because it mightmean that that more work is given to them to
compensate when you can't do it. I mean, would youadvise that the cancer patient tells their
(19:32):
colleagues or? It's really for the person to kindof discuss with the line manager how this is to be
communicated. So I mean, you know, classically,at first diagnosis, you might think of the people
you need, you want to tell who you might want, yourmanager to tell. And I always say, agree the
message. So what do you want said, you need to bewrite it down in an email, I want them to know this.
(19:56):
But as new people come on board, I think it'simportant they should know why. So it's important
to again, preempt the problem, if you can, byletting your manager know that as new people come
on board, you're happy for them to be told or not.There are two problems that arises with teams. One
is that they don't know. And then they get veryresentful that somebody's having all this time
(20:18):
off, and they're getting all this extra work, andthey don't know why. So that's one problem. The
other problem, which is much more complex, is whenfor good reasons, a cover is brought in while
you're off sick. And the person doing the coverresents the fact that this is only a temporary job,
(20:42):
they want to do it permanently. So they spend a lotof time building a relationship with a manager.
And the manager might quite like them might preferthem to the person who's off with cancer. So often
you get difficult relationships between theperson who's off sick, and their cover
arrangement and the manager. And it's importantfor in that sense, for in that case, for managers to
(21:06):
realise that the job is the person who's off sick.This is only a temporary arrangement. They have to
make that very clear, everyone from the outset,that this person is coming back and will be back.
So, you know, it's lovely to have them cover thejob, but the job is not theirs until the
(21:28):
circumstances change significantly as theywere. It's very similar to a maternity leave,
really, when a woman or paternity leave, you know,when someone goes off for a really long time and
someone comes in their place. And, you know, I canunderstand, we're in a place where we're being
more and more open, we're encouraged tocommunicate more, to be ourselves more at work.
(21:50):
And so, if that person, the interim, you know, theacting person in that job is making great
relationships with their team and with theirmanager, it's incredibly difficult for them as
well, isn't it? Absolutely. And no, it's a toughsituation all around, but you have to understand
the facts of the situation. And, you know, it'slike a maternity cover. There are employers, you
(22:15):
know, I do, I have several cases where somebody'scome back to work after cancer after cancer
treatment, you know, they're back on their firstday or their first week and the manager says, it's
lovely to have you back, we've really missed you.But you need to understand that while you're away,
we've had to restructure. And actually, the jobyou were doing no longer exists. So we'll try and
(22:41):
find you another job if we can, but we'll have to seewhat we can do. And, you know, I'm afraid to say that
does happen. It happens with maternity cover, ithappens in these cases too. Thank God, not very
often, but I'm afraid to say it does happen. In thatcase, what should someone do? It's very tough. I
(23:03):
would always seek, again, legal advice and we canput people and Macmillan Cousin touch with
lawyers. The issue is, is it a genuine redundancy?Yeah, it's a very tough situation. It doesn't
happen as often as it used to, but it does happen.And working with cancer, you don't provide the
(23:24):
legal advice, but someone can contact you throughyour website and you will sort of point them in the
right direction. Yeah, we do actually have anon-practicing employment lawyer who provides
advice. Fantastic. She does do that and sheprovides up to an hour's advice per person. So
that's fantastic because I think often whensomeone when someone sees the word seek legal
advice, they think of it as this really scary, hugething. And you know, is this going to cost me loads
(23:49):
of money. So actually having that interim pointperson, it is really worthwhile. Yeah. So we have
our own in-house person, a wonderful personcalled Genevieve Isaacson. And also we have
relationships with two firms of lawyers who, ifthings are getting really nasty, where we can seek
advice from them and they're lovely people andthey're not scary lawyers, I have to say.
(24:12):
Hopefully it won't come to that for anyone who'slistening to this podcast. I'm Gareth, the editor
of Vita magazine. Vita is Breast Cancer Now'smagazine for anyone affected by breast cancer.
It's full of inspiring real life stories, experttips on coping with the effects of breast cancer
and articles on health and well-being. In our newspring issue, you can read about a mother and
(24:37):
daughter who were both diagnosed with breastcancer 12 years apart. Find out the latest in
breast cancer research, get tips on coping withfatigue, read about the benefits of getting
outdoors, and much more. Subscribe to Vita Now atBreastCancerNow.org forward slash Vita. You
(24:57):
mentioned at the beginning that cancer recoveryis not linear. And that was absolutely the case for
me. And I, so after my primary diagnosis when I was29, I then had 10 years where I was effectively
cured. I went back to work. I got up, first of all, Iwent back to university and did a master's degree
because you know, I wanted to do that. But then Iwent back to work, got a full time job and my hair
(25:23):
grew back. And I looked like a normal employee, anormal person, a contributing member to the team
and I was working really, really hard. And thepeople that knew me before obviously knew my
history. But I didn't sort of actively bring it upvery often. And there were new people that came
into my working life who didn't know anythingabout it. I used to travel a lot with my job and it was
(25:48):
very hard work and intense. And there were timeswhen the fatigue really, really hit me. I was
taking to Moxifen during that time. I had all theparamedic and pausal symptoms, not to mention the
knock on effects of chemotherapy, radiotherapy,surgery years and years later and all of that stuff
piles up on you and keeps on going and going. So I hadtimes when I really struggled. But because I was, I
(26:15):
wasn't a cancer patient, I was discharged fromhospital and I found it incredibly difficult to
know what I was entitled to. I did haveconversations with my managers and with HR over
the years. But because I was supposedly wellagain, I didn't feel I had a right to ask for time off
(26:43):
or working from home. This is before the pandemic.What can someone do to find out? Maybe someone who
has lived for a long time after their cancertreatment but is still struggling in some ways.
What can they do? You're covered by the EqualityAct for life. So I'm still covered by it and you will
be covered by it. Anyone who's had a cancerdiagnosis. And you can ask for adjustments or
(27:08):
mention that you need adjustments when you needthem. You can have them either permanently or
temporarily. So in your case, it would just be aquestion of saying to employer, if you wish to, you
don't have to. We all manage to a certain extentsome of the side effects of cancer treatment. We
live them forever. I still have menopausalsymptoms. But you can say to your employer, look, I
(27:36):
have had cancer treatment X years ago. I stillsuffer the side effects of that treatment,
whether it's fatigue or neuropathy or whatever itis. I mean, there are people who have bowel cancer
treatment who'll be living with a stoma. And wouldsay then to your employer, there are going to be
(27:59):
occasional days. I'm just going to need to workfrom home or have a day's sick leave, whatever, or
just not come into the office, not any work, do anywork that day. Because of that, I will let you know
when that happens. But be aware, I will need to dothat occasionally from time to time. And then it's
a question of just communicating that with youremployer and doing it. But you have that right
(28:22):
because of your cancer diagnosis to request thoseadjustments. And what about people who really,
really struggle to bring it up? Like they can'ttalk about it. Can it suffice just to send an email?
Can you do this? A lot depends on your relationshipwith your employer. I mean, with your manager, and
(28:42):
of course, the problem often comes when yourmanager, you've had a wonderful relationship
with, is promoted or moves on, and then you get a newone. But that right continues. I would always have
a, I'm a great believer in having an eyeballconversation with someone and letting them know
in person, rather than by email. I mean, you mightsay, I'm going to have to do this from time to time.
(29:03):
And then there's an understanding, as long as youdon't kind of take ridiculous advantage of it,
that if you're having a bad, a bad week or whateverit is that you can say, look, I'm just going to have
to go home. So I think it's important not to just cryon the soldier on. Particularly if you're doing a
(29:26):
demanding or difficult job, because that's whenyou make mistakes. And, you know, I think it's easy
to kind of ignore symptoms sometimes, butequally, it's important to kind of be body aware,
you know, be aware of yourself. If you're having abad day, and you know, you know, it's pressure of
(29:47):
work, but the treatment is still affecting you,then say so, and make the time to kind of do what's
right for you. Yeah. Perhaps if you are one of thosepeople who really struggles to bring up a
difficult conversation like that, you could sendan email saying, I'd like to talk to you about
something. And then, and then, and then bring it upso you feel you've sort of paved the way for it.
(30:10):
Yeah. I think it's always, what's that phrase,wicket rolling. Oh, I don't know that one. Wicket
rolling, it's kind of prepare the ground. I'm agreat believer in no surprises. Yes. You know, it
surprises are not good for anyone, neither for younor your employer. You know, if you're feeling
fatigued or you feel like you just can't go to workthat day, or you need to work from home because, you
(30:32):
know, your body is telling you that it's hadenough, and it can't cope physically. That is one
thing you can talk to your team about. But whatabout mentally? Because actually, the
psychological emotional effects of cancer stayforever in varying degrees. But, you know, and you
(30:52):
might be suffering from depression, anxiety,lack of motivation. Do you have any thoughts for
them? I think the psychological impact of canceris totally misunderstood by the wider community.
People think of cancer as a physical illness, fullstop. If I take my case again as an example, I, when I
(31:15):
was diagnosed, I had no idea I had cancer. I went fora routine mammogram, and suddenly it was, you
know, stage, wasn't stage two, but I still hadchemotherapy, radiotherapy. Now, the issue was
the doctors tell you at the end of treatment, oh,we're all done, you're fine. But you don't know
you're fine. There's no test, not really, that cansay you're cancer free. They use that wonderful
(31:39):
phrase, remission, you're in remission. So one ofthe issues most people have is depression, loss of
confidence, anxiety, often caused byconfronting your own mortality, which is not fun
(31:59):
for anybody, and the fear of the cancer comingback. And, you know, I still, I know, it was it, how
many years ago is it now? You're coming up to 20, Iguess. Coming up to 20 years. You know, I was at a
conference the other day, a cancer conference,and a doctor, an eminent doctor was sitting next to
(32:23):
me, and he laughingly said, well, of course,cancer can come back over 20 years after your
initial diagnosis. And I thought, thanks fortelling me that. But there is that issue that that
fear never goes away. It might, it might lessen abit, but you know, aches and pains that can't be
(32:43):
explained are the common issue that people feelhave to cope with after a cancer diagnosis. And
that fear is very difficult to talk about. But Ithink it is important to let your family and
friends and colleagues know that cancer isn'tover when treatment's finished. You know, this
(33:05):
is, it's a bit like the iceberg, you know, whenyou've the treatment is just the very tip of the
iceberg, the kind of complexity of the physicaland emotional side effects you feel after
treatment is totally misunderstood, notunderstood. And it takes most people many years to
(33:26):
deal with that. So, so when people say to me, and Ithink I'm going mad, you know, because of the most
confident people in the world can suddenly havelost their confidence. They're depressed,
they're anxious. And they go to the GP for tablets.Now, sometimes, you know, tablets can be helpful,
let's be clear. But these are normal feelings thatyou can work through and learn how to manage and not
(33:53):
to feel those things after cancer treatment, youwouldn't be human. But I do believe that part of the
problem as well is, you know, people who can be veryill can look terrific. And so often people just
think you're well, you know, they don't actuallyrealise what's going on within you, not just
(34:15):
physically, but emotionally. So, I mean, how doessomeone communicate that to their employer? I
think it's really important if you can to explainsome of that. You know, again, we can help people
find the words. It's not that difficult. And thereare lots of very, very good articles about the
psychological impact of cancer, one by quite afamous clinical psychologist called Peter
(34:38):
Harvey, which is called something like Now Afterthe Treatment Finishes, Then What. And there's
actually a very good video on our website with alady called Dr. Jane Clark, who's also a clinical
psychologist about the impact, thepsychological impact of cancer. I think talking
about these things is important, not only becauseit gets you to sort of explain it to other people and
(35:05):
you feel better for doing that, but it's also aboutincreasing their understanding. I mean, the
classic thing is most people, as I said, think thatonce treatment finishes, oh, it's great, we've
rung a bell, you're well. I'm afraid that is very,very rarely the case. Psychological or physical.
This is all supposing that the employer or the HRteam are understanding and good communicators
(35:33):
and open to listening. But there will be many, manycases where people work for companies that don't
have an HR department, it might just be a very smallrestaurant or it could be a factory or an office
where someone's manager just doesn't want toknow, just doesn't have the time to listen. What
(35:54):
other things people can do when there are theirstories about their cancer? It's very tough. I
think it's important to assert your rights.There's plenty of websites and information which
states somebody's right. One of the things we tryand do is kind of empower people to say it a nice way.
(36:17):
Look, you need to understand that my cancer is arecognized disability and under UK law, I'm
entitled to these things. There's a way ofasserting these things in a way. We're not being
aggressive, you're not being antagonistic, butyou're telling people what's due to you. That's
what you have to do. There are still some very bademployers out there, but I say particularly small
(36:45):
companies, actually some small companies can beterrific because they know their employees
really well very often and can then tailor thingsto suit them. Sometimes it's the big
organizations who treat people like numbers,like units of production who are rather less good
at doing the right thing. We do a lot of work, as domany of the other cancer charities, in running
(37:10):
workshops for employers, for HR teams on how tosupport somebody in the workplace with cancer.
There's you touched on confidence and how cancercan affect people's confidence and in the
workplace, that is everything because people canfeel like they can't do their job when they are in
(37:34):
fact completely capable of doing their job. When Iwas diagnosed with secondary breast cancer in
2022, I've had this real feeling that my career wasover, that I was coming towards the end of my life, I
was not going to have new jobs and newopportunities. Now 18 months later, I've been
(37:56):
very fortunate with my treatment, which hasworked really well. I've got a new job, a food
magazine, which is a dream job. I'm presentingthis podcast. I'm doing in some ways reaching the
peak of my career, but I have really suffered withconfidence, I think, over that period. What would
you say to someone who is really suffering withlack of confidence because of their cancer? I
(38:21):
think it's realising that fundamentally you'restill the same person, that you have the same
skills and talents. You may need to manage thingslike, you know, there's often fatigue, often goes
hand in hand with kind of some cognitive problems.You become more forgetful, you're tired, and
therefore you forget more. All of those things canbe managed, but the essence of Laura is still
(38:46):
there, and it's important that you understandthat you're the same person, you're just dealing
with a few more things, but you have the sameability. I remember, I mean, I was diagnosed a lot
older than you, but I was 53, and I thought, who'sgoing to employ a middle-aged woman with cancer,
(39:09):
you know, end of my career? And I remember, youknow, having, I was leaving my job at the time for a
variety of reasons I won't go into, and saying toheadhunters, you know, am I employable? I said, of
course you're employable. And I mean, I had lots ofjob offers that I never thought I would get,
(39:31):
because fundamentally, I had a track record, I waswell known at that particular time, but I was still
me. I just had days when I wasn't feeling very well,so it's important to recognise that you're the
same person, you're just dealing with a difficultillness. In terms of the services you offer, do you
(39:52):
offer a sort of career counselling, you know, forpeople who are out of work or look at, because often
people will give up their job, you know, they'llsay, well, I was having treatment, it was
difficult with my, my employer was beingdifficult, so I decided to give up my job and focus
(40:13):
on my treatment. So yeah, we provide careercoaching, we don't, we don't get people jobs, but
we help people find jobs. One of, what several ofour team, and by the way, all the team members of the
team who work with me, we've all either had canceror a profound experience of cancer as working
carers, but several members of the coaching teamare career counsellors as well, so they can give
(40:39):
people a lot of help in understanding how to do yourCV, how to do an interview, how to network, how to
use social media productively, all the kind ofways of kind of getting a job, and we've helped many
people get back into work. If you are a manager or anHR professional, for example, or a business owner
(41:02):
listening to this podcast and you think, wow, Ineed to provide some support to the people in my
company returning to work with cancer, what canthose people do? Do they approach you? Do you come
in and do trainings with them? How does it work?Yeah, we, if they contact us through our website
or, you know, then what we will do is that there arethree, so three areas where we can focus. One is we
(41:25):
can look at policies and practices, make surethey're compliant with UK law. On sickness
absence, policies often aren't reallycompliant. We can provide training workshops of
any length from, you know, half an hour to a wholeday. And as part of that, we can help set up things
(41:46):
like cancer buddy networks as well withinorganizations. And we support working carers as
well. And then there's kind of our one to onecoaching as well. And when we're working with
employers, we have absolutely unique servicebecause what we do, if you remember I was talking
earlier about the line manager's role isabsolutely essential. So what we do when we're
(42:06):
coaching an individual is their coaching isconfidential. But in parallel, we provide
unlimited support in terms of advice and guidanceto their manager and HR on how best to support that
person. So there's a kind of three wayrelationship. And that works really well. Okay,
(42:29):
when it comes to talking about cancer, there are alot of cliches. There are a lot of things that
people do. And people can say the wrong thing, orthey can do the head tilt. Are there any general no
knows or any things that people should always sayin the work environment to someone who has cancer
(42:49):
or has had cancer? Well, the classic the classicone is just I want to say how are you now? Now that we
tend in this country to go through a sort of littlekind of dance of how are you I'm fine. Great. And by
the time you've said I'm fine, the person who'sasked how are you was actually walked down the
corridor doesn't hear the reply. So I always say,how are you? And then look them in the eye and say,
(43:14):
how are you? And then and I want a proper answer as itwere. And sometimes people might say out of 10, how
are you? And you say, are you not allowed to sayseven out of 10? Because most people say seven out
of 10. So it's important. I think silence withcancer, silence is not golden. Okay, it's
important. Even if you say the wrong thing is tounderstand how someone is doing the kind of
(43:40):
classic manager approach is often I didn't want toupset them. So I thought I'd say nothing. I thought
I'd leave them in peace for six months. Okay. I'vetold them I only want them to come back to work when
they're 100% fit. Well, when are you ever 100% fit?So I think those are things which, that kind of
(44:10):
laissez-faire attitude is not helpful. But I'dalways say, but even if you say the wrong thing,
best to say something. Absolutely. But theclassic thing is you'll be fine. You know,
positive. I know someone who had that and theydied. Yeah. I know about cancer because my mother
(44:39):
oblique father oblique best friend oblique thirdcousin twice removed had cancer. No, you don't
know about cancer because everyone is different.So there are I mean, there's lots of all the
websites they've got kind of howlers. And theclassic one, I think we were talking earlier
before the podcast was, you know, they lost theirbattle or they're fighting, they're fighting
(45:04):
cancer. Most people I know, we're all different,but most people I know with cancer don't like that
kind of metaphor of a battle. We've talked quite alot about patients. But actually, what about
people, partners of people with cancer, parentsof people with cancer, children of people with
cancer, what support do you provide to them? Wesupport them as well. So in some for some
(45:31):
employees, we're supporting not only the personwith cancer, but also their carer. And we support,
you know, depends who's the employee. I thinkcarers have a very, very tough time. I mean, it
depends on, again, the relationship with theperson they're caring for. I think parents with
children have the toughest time of all because Imean, in all cases, the stress is horrendous. And
(45:54):
most employers are, I'm afraid to say, lesssympathetic. And the rights of carers aren't
quite as good as for people with carer as those whohave cancer. So the rights of carers are not as
strong. Many carers will just take sick leave andhide the fact that they're a carer. And when you say
(46:14):
carer, do you mean carer in the official term or canthat also mean, you know, someone's partner who
takes them to hospital every time but andtherefore needs some time off work is sort of
unofficial carer? Yeah. I mean, most, most, mostcompanies will have sort of there are policies
around dependent dependence or kind ofunofficial carers having time off, you know,
(46:35):
emergency time off to support someone. But mostcompanies don't have carers policies. We're
trying to sort of persuade a few organizations nowto do that. So yes, we do support carers and
supported a significant number. And it's oftenagain, just helping them understand what rights
(47:00):
they do have, what the what the options are forhaving time off. And for generally making sure
they talk to their employer about what's going on.Because again, just disappearing without kind of
telling people what's going on in your life makesmakes people very jumpy, very nervous about what
(47:22):
is happening. So I think it's important to be openif you can, but I can't pretend it's an easy, it's
easy for carers at all. But it's certainlysomething that people don't necessarily think
about when it comes to cancer because it affectscouples and families so much more than, you know,
it often affects the partner as much as it affectsthe person with cancer. And they might also have to
(47:45):
take time off work. There might also be a hugefinance financial burden. So there's a there's a
very good again video on our website by one of myassociates, Sarah Dawson, whose son died of
sarcoma when he was 17, who had breast cancer lastyear, and whose husband now has melanoma, and
(48:08):
talks about life working and caring, caringsomeone with cancer and working with cancer. And
it is incredibly tough. And I think it's importantfor employers to recognize, I mean, there's
something like five five million plus carers inthis country who are officially carers who are
(48:29):
trying to cope with work and cancer, and they needsupport. I mean, the workforce is we're not
exactly overloaded with workforce at the moment.I mean, we're desperate to try and keep people
working and engaged with work. So I thinkemployers owe it to themselves, as much as to the
carers, to try and make sure they're providing allthe support they can to keep those people, if not
(48:52):
actively engaged with work because of what'shappening to keep them employed, so they can
return to work at the appropriate point. And ifsomeone would like to contact working with
cancer, ask questions, get in touch with you,where can they find you? So they can go to our
website, which is www.workingwithcancer.co.uk. And we're also on Twitter, LinkedIn,
(49:19):
Instagram and TikTok. Fantastic. Well, we willput all of those links in the show notes. Thank you.
I would just like to ask you one final question thatwe've been asking all of our guests on the breast
cancer now podcast, which is, what would you say isthe one thing that needs to change in terms of
breast cancer in the coming years? So it might besomething to do with finding a cure, it might be
(49:44):
something to do with mental health, it might betreatment? Well, ideally, they'd be a cure, but
I'm sufficient realist to know that I don't thinkcancer will ever disappear. I think it'll always
be part of our lives. But I think what would make adifference is to have treatments that aren't so
invasive and difficult to live with. So I think theissue is how can we make treatment something that
(50:12):
people can cope with more easily? Great answer.Thank you. Barbara, thank you so much for joining
us on the breast cancer now podcast. My pleasure.It's been lovely. Thank you for asking me to take
part. If you enjoyed this episode of the breastcancer now podcast, make sure to subscribe on
Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get yourpodcasts. Please also leave us a rating or review
(50:35):
on Apple podcasts and perhaps recommend it tosomeone you think would find it helpful. The more
people we can reach, the more we can get breastcancer now vital resources to those who need them.
You can find support and information on ourwebsite, breastcancernow.org, and you can
follow breast cancer now on social media at breastcancer now. All the links mentioned in this
(50:56):
episode are listed in the show notes in yourpodcast app. Thank you for listening to the breast
cancer now podcast.
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