S5 Ep15: Toral and Kreena on cancer in the South Asian community

In this episode, Laura talks to Toral and Kreena about breast cancer in the South Asian community, and the cultural expectations and taboos that surround a diagnosis.

Toral and Kreena share their experiences being diagnosed with breast cancer as younger women. Toral describes the challenges of getting breast cancer three times, and Kreena talks about her infertility from breast cancer treatment. They both speak about issues they've faced during their cancer diagnosis and treatment, from the health system and within their community, focusing on the importance of self-advocating and challenging cultural norms. They also tell us about an organisation they set up, the South Asian Supernovas, which aims to improve breast cancer awareness and outcomes for the South Asian community.

Follow South Asian Supernovas on:
YouTube
Instagram
Facebook

Find out more about The Intended Parent's podcast or listen on your usual podcast hosting platform.

You can follow Kreena on her website or on Instagram.
You can follow Toral on her website or on Instagram.

Find out more about our Younger Women Together service, and also our Someone Like Me service.

We’re Breast Cancer Now, the research and support charity. However you’re experiencing breast cancer, we’re here. For information and support, visit our website or phone our free helpline on 0808 800 6000 (UK only).

You can also watch this episode on YouTube.

Key Topics:
0:24 Laura introduces Toral and Kreena
1:39 Toral's story
9:48 Kreena's story
10:41 The Intended Parent
13:00 Kreena's diagnosis
22:35 Why the South Asian Supernovas organisation was set up
23:32 Cultural expectations and taboos
27:38 Challenges within breast cancer care for people of colour
29:58 The effects of breast cancer on life in the South Asian community
34:34 Tips for a South Asian person newly diagnosed with breast cancer
39:27 The South Asian Supernovas' breast awareness campaign
45:00 Now and the future for Toral and Kreena
52:45 What needs to change in breast cancer?
53:23 How to follow the South Asian Supernovas and get involved
53:51 How to follow Kreena and Toral online

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences ofits speakers, rather than those of Breast Cancer Now. Welcome to the

(00:08):
Breast Cancer Now podcast, providing support and information to anyoneaffected by breast cancer. I'm Laura Price and I'm the host of the Breast
Cancer Now podcast. I'm a food writer and author and I live with secondarybreast cancer. Today we are talking to Toral Shah and Kreena Dhiman,
founders of the South Asian Supernovas, that aims to improve breastcancer awareness and outcomes for the South Asian community. Toral is the

(00:36):
nutritional scientist behind the Urban Kitchen, which teaches people toimprove their physical, mental and social well-being in a variety of
ways. She's a trained chef with a very impressive amount of academicqualifications and she's had breast cancer not once, not twice, but three
times, with her first diagnosis at the age of 29. Kreena has also had breastcancer, having been diagnosed at 33, and she has a remarkable story that

(01:03):
has inspired a podcast as well as regular speaking, writing and mediaappearances. Kreena became infertile from cancer treatment and heart
failure and now has four children, including triplets, throughsurrogacy. This sparked the idea for the Intended Parents podcast, where
she and her co-hosts talk to different guests about unconventionalroutes to motherhood. Kreena and Toral, welcome to the Breast Cancer Now

(01:28):
podcast. Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us. Thank you. SoI've given the very short version of who you are and what you do, but I'd love
you to introduce yourselves. So Toral, we'll start with you. So I'm Toral.I've had breast cancer three times, but actually my world was always going
to be about cancer. I knew at the age of 11 as a very precocious child that Iwanted to work in cancer, because I read a book about a cancer

(01:52):
surgeon. And so for me, that meant going to medical school. And I wasthinking I wanted to be an oncologist, but when I was at medical school, my
mother had breast cancer and I realised what the oncologist actuallydoes, because when you are 16 and applying for university, you have
absolutely no idea. You have no idea what the jobs actually mean. So mum hadbreast cancer when I was at university and I remember thinking, so she's

(02:15):
having surgery, she's having chemotherapy, she's having radiotherapy,she's having hormone treatment. But what happens after that? What
happens when you've been through the treatment and you want to get yourlife back on track? Your mum has had a year of treatment and how to get your
life back. And that's when I really started looking to nutrition. And Irealized at medical school, we learnt nothing about nutrition and kind of

(02:36):
really helping people's holistic well-being after this kind of cancerdiagnosis. So I had a really difficult time deciding what to do. And I
actually ended up leaving medicine, which was, you know, if you're a SouthAsian person like me, that is literally the parents' worst nightmare,
although my parents are very cool about it. Worked in research for a while,had a bit of a break and then actually went back and did a master's in

(02:57):
nutritional medicine. And I was just about finishing the taught part ofthat course when I just felt a lump. And I was doing a lot of training. I was
training for a triathlon. And so I was very, very lean. So this lump was evenmore kind of pronounced. And I show my mum, she said, let's wait a cycle and
see what happens. And so I did. And then she said, let's go and see thedoctor. My GP is a really close family at the time, was a very close family

(03:25):
friend. So he was like, wait till the new female GP starts next week. And sowe waited, saw her. She and she sort of didn't take me seriously. So A being
29, despite my having a family history, my mum had already had breastcancer, my aunt already had breast cancer. But she was like, no, you're too
young. And so I just wasn't diagnosed for a few months, a couple of months,actually. And the only reason I got diagnosed because my mum works in the

(03:46):
NHS. And there's ways and means around the system. And so for me, that wasreally the first kind of experience of being discriminated against,
being really young and not being heard and listened to, despite havingthis ridiculously strong found history. So 29 years old, diagnosed with
breast cancer, it was a real shock. And actually, I was, I had very earlystage, mostly DCIS, which is ductal carcinoma in situ just trapped in

(04:14):
your milk ducts a little bit of a kind of micro invasion to stage one. And so Ihad to have a mastectomy. And for me, being very, very body conscious, that
was literally the worst nightmare. So had the mastectomy was supposed tobe in hospital for my 30th birthday, decided to leave. And luckily, they
let me leave because I was recovering quite well. And ended up just havinghormone treatment. I didn't have any other treatment, because

(04:39):
medically, it wasn't necessary. And I was very involved in my treatment.So, off you go with your life. And I was already working, my master's thesis
was already on breast cancer and what you can do from a diet and lifestyleperspective to reduce the risk of reoccurrence. So my life was already
wrapped up in cancer, I was doing lots of work in this field. And, you know,continue to grow my business in that way. And you get to the five year mark,

(05:03):
and you think, okay, this is cool. past passed the five year mark, you get tothe 10 year mark, and you think, great, I don't need to think about this
again. And so in the meantime, building my business, I have, I'm anutritional scientist, an integrative oncology practitioner. I'm
doing loads of qualifications, I'm constantly training, helping, youknow, breast cancer patients, other cancer patients all the time. And

(05:24):
then 12 and a half years in, my scar from my mastectomy started to feelweird. There's nothing else you can say other than it felt odd. And I think
that's where knowing your normal was so important. And so there became theprocess of trying to be, you know, diagnosed, but no, again, no one really
took me seriously. I kept saying this feels odd. And no one, again, no onereally took me seriously, took me a couple months to get diagnosed again. I

(05:46):
have an amazing team at the Marsden so once I'm diagnosed, everythinghappens quickly. And, you know, it got to the point, well, what do we do?
Because this is a little stage one cancer, but in the skin of themastectomy, because I never had radiotherapy, that's always a risk. If
you have a mastectomy, because a couple of cells are always left. So had thesurgery. And then again, the conversation was, do we give you

(06:08):
radiotherapy or not? And they agonised over over three months, it tookthree MDTs later. And like, they're like, no, but we'll just give you
hormone treatment again. But I've never been able to tolerate TamoxifenAnd that's a whole other conversation that we could have another time. And
so, you know, off we went, and that was end of that. And and then, you know, inthe pandemic, I had a, and I was having regular PET scans, the pandemic just

(06:30):
before the pandemic in February 2020, had a PET scan that wasn't quiteright. And they couldn't tell because I had some developed some sort of
dermatitis on the kind of my on the breast. And they're like, Oh, we don'tknow if it's dermatitis or breast cancer. I'm like, well, you might want to
figure it out. Anyway, pandemic happened, and the ball got dropped byeverybody, not just the team, but myself too. So fast forward over that

(06:52):
kind of big summer where we're all kind of out and about. And like, I juststarted to get so much pain in my shoulder, my kind of around my neck area.
And I just thought this is not right. So called 17 times before someonereally took notice of me. And then I just bypassed the kind of process and
went straight to my surgeon's secretary. And, you know, again, breastcancer, recurrence in the skin, but obviously a bit more extensive and

(07:18):
trying to grow into the muscle because I had previously had a mastectomywith implant reconstruction. And so we're going back into lockdown and
I'm going back into treatment. And that was really hard. So I had a DIEPflap, or had a mastectomy again, which is really weird because I've
already had a mastectomy, but kind of a mastectomy of the kind of implantreconstruction, and then a DIEP flap reconstruction, and then

(07:41):
radiotherapy and then hormone treatment, which again, I'm just poorly,I'm not able to tolerate Tamoxifen. And I haven't, I've actually given
that up. And that's a whole something I talk about quite a lot. But so I thinkthe end story of this is you have to be vigilant. And I think there's a risk of
being hyper vigilant as somebody who's had cancer, not just once, twice,but three times. And so I have to constantly work with my nervous system to

(08:05):
calm that down. And luckily, I have lots of tools in my toolbox from the workI do with patients. But it's really hard because, you know, we know that,
and I think you know better, there is a 20 to 30% of primary breast cancerpatients progress to, you know, having reoccurrence. And we don't even
know what the statistics are, whether it's, you know, secondary orwhether it's actually a local recurrence, which is primary, like me or

(08:30):
what it is. So I think we just have to be as much as you think that, you know,five years, 10 years, you're out, you have to be a little bit aware, and you
have to be very aware of your own normal and be constantly checking. Andthat's not to scare people, but it's just to be with hormone driven
cancers, like mine, so I'm oestrogen positive breast cancer, they canreturn any time up to 30 years. And I think life events, and I could tell you a

(08:55):
little about the science, but I'm not going to in this particular episode,but why the things I think that kind of helped the cancer feel like you start
growing again. And, you know, we've got some great data for that now. But Ithink it's, you know, the moral of the story is like, just keep an eye and
know your body, because no one else, other people might be the experts incancer, but you're the expert in your own body. You've raised so many

(09:17):
important points there, and so many familiar things. Kreena and I wereboth nodding our heads furiously throughout, because, you know, I was
diagnosed at 29 as well. And so many people listening to this podcast willhave experienced a similar thing where their symptoms were initially
perhaps dismissed, or perhaps misdiagnosed. And the importance ofknowing your own body and knowing when something is not normal or not right

(09:42):
is just so important. So thank you for talking about that. And loads ofother points, which we'll come back on to in a bit. Kreena, why don't you
tell us a little bit about what you do, and also about your breast cancerdiagnosis? Yeah, sure. So I guess up until last year, I was I was a corporate
accountant, you know, and my work in this space was always a bit of a sidehustle. And over the years, over the eight years of working here, I've

(10:07):
realised that actually my passion is here. And I think part of life aftercancer, we have a whole new perspective, don't we, on what we want to do and
what we want to leave behind on this earth. And for me, it was like, you know,an opportunity came last year to sort of quit that corporate rat race and to
really put my heart and soul into saving people's lives, ultimately, orenriching them. And so I made the jump and haven't really looked back.

(10:32):
Because of the work we're doing in this space and other projects. Soobviously, we'll talk more about the South Asian supernovas that Toral
and I have co-founded. But then I'm also co-founder of The IntendedParent, which is a support platform now to help women, all couples or
single people going through surrogacy in the UK, because we know howsensationalised it is, how much sort of stigma and taboos associated with

(10:59):
that path to parenthood. And how tricky it is given sort of the legalimplications of surrogacy in the UK, which is a whole other conversation.
So what I wanted to do along with my co host there is initially set up a freepodcast, a free resource to smash the conversations that were on TV, you
know, about surrogacy is risky surrogacy is this surrogacy is that she'sgoing to take your baby and you know, we have between myself and Fran, we

(11:25):
have six very beautiful healthy children. And we've not experienced theadversity you hear about in the press. So we wanted to put that out there
because for me, you know, a cancer diagnosis, yes, it happens. But whathappens after that? And like Toral was saying her move away from medicine
into sort of her current work was because she wanted to help people beyondtheir cancer diagnosis. And I feel that same way, when it comes to

(11:49):
fertility and motherhood. And I think that so many of us feel that we'rerobbed of motherhood when we hit a cancer diagnosis. And I want to advocate
that you're not, because that's what I was once told. The line I often quotefrom my oncologist was that his job was to save my life, not to create a new
life. And that hit really hard as a South Asian girl who was newly marriedand always expected to have children. And so I moved heaven and earth to

(12:13):
have my kids. And I want other people to know that it's an option, and thathopefully we've made it a little bit easier for them. So The Intended
Parent is one of my babies. I then, yeah, you know, have other things that Ido around sort of advocacy. So we mentioned that I'd gone into heart
failure following chemotherapy. That's something that I feel is stillnot talked about that much, cardiotoxic chemotherapy and the impact it

(12:37):
has on us. So I work with the International Society of Cardiooncology toraise awareness of, you know, what heart disease can look like after
chemotherapy and what we should be looking for. So that's another thingthat I do. And then generally just sharing my story, podcasting, writing,
I'm in the process of getting a book sort of written and published. Sothat's also happening. And so it's all, you know, very exciting stuff. And

(13:00):
it stems from a cancer diagnosis at the age of 33. I had no idea that breastcancer happened in younger women. And this is despite sort of a familial
history of my maternal grandmother having experienced breast cancertwice when I was in my teens. But as a family, we never spoke about it. So we
knew that something was wrong with my gran, but we didn't know what. And theC word was never really mentioned. And she would go to radiotherapy on sort

(13:29):
of the hospital ambulance. No one would take her because she didn't want topick people out. She didn't want people to sort of be a bit of a pity party for
her. And she didn't want to be a burden. Then I also think there was mostlikely an element of shame associated with it that just wasn't spoken
about. And I feel so sad for her now, because I think it must have been solonely, a woman who didn't really speak English having to turn up at a

(13:52):
hospital where people probably didn't understand her, she must have beenpetrified. And she didn't have a loved one with her. Because she didn't
want to be a burden. And it's such a complex conversation in our communitywith our elders of we support them in so many ways, you know, we translate
their letters from the government from them, you know, we pay theirutility bills for them, we do all of these daily admin things. But when it

(14:15):
comes to their health, there's a degree of secrecy when it comes to likechronic disease, because I don't know if they feel like they've let us
down, you know, we talk about this, Toral and I, a lot in the South AsianSupernovas that colonisation is really imprinted on our grandparents.
And, you know, they had to really struggle to fit in societally. They had tosort of endure so much adversity that they, I think felt the need to be

(14:41):
perfect, to be accepted. And I think that sort of filtered into ourgeneration where you see all the doctors and accountants and you know,
highly academic people who are studying to then find acceptance. Andtherefore, we've been conditioned to not share our vulnerabilities. And
I think what I really want to do with South Asian Supernovas is to break thatand to remind people that vulnerability is their greatest strength. So,

(15:04):
you know, that was the story for my grandmother. You know, we fast forwardsort of a decade or so beyond her passing. And I find an inverted nipple. And
I joke with my husband about it and say, Oh, what have I worn? My bra must havebeen really badly fitting because my nipple's gone in. And I joke about it
for another week. And, you know, I think what on earth's going on here, notfor a second thinking it could be breast cancer. And then two weeks later,

(15:28):
he's like, I think you should go to the doctor because that's not normal.And I sort of think once my husband says something like go to the doctor, I
take it a bit seriously because he never goes to the doc, you know, he wouldnever suggest that or says, Oh, right. And I remember, say clearly, it was a
Sunday afternoon and I started googling what an inverted nipple is. Andthen there were the signs, you know, and symptoms coming up. I'd also had

(15:50):
shooting pain in my breast, but I was doing a lot of training. I was doingbody pump. And, you know, I thought I've just lifted too much weight and
pulled a muscle. So let it be, then, you know, the sign was there when I lookat it now, called the doctor on the Monday explained everything,
explained my fears, and then was told that they thought it was veryunlikely that this was breast cancer. I initially went through to

(16:12):
receptionist, receptionist put me through to a doctor on duty, theon-call doctor. And I think when you're young and you haven't had an
illness, you don't really have a regular GP. So they don't know you as aperson, they don't know what's normal for you. So she just said, Oh, right.
Yeah, no, you're very young, you know, from what I can see, you don't haveany issues with sort of weight or, you know, I told her I was a non smoker non

(16:32):
drinker really. So she's like, your risk factors are very low. This isn'tgoing to be breast cancer given your age and you don't have children, it's
most likely a blocked milk duct. Book the next routine appointment. Sorather than getting in in the next few days, it was a week before I got in.
When I then got in the GP sort of felt my breast and you know, she gas lit me andshe just said, There's nothing wrong with you, you know, and I can't feel a

(16:55):
lump, you know, this is nothing to be worried about. You've got a blockedmilk duct, go away, you know, keep an eye on it over the coming weeks and
months and come back if it doesn't resolve. By that point, I've done a lot ofresearch. And I think I'm quite a tenacious person, you know, and I was
like, hold on. Now I've done the research. I know that this isn't normal andI need to self advocate. So I basically sat in her chair while she sort of

(17:20):
told me that it was useless going to have a mammogram and there's no pointreferring me. And I was like, Well, I'll take the referral anyway, because
I'm entitled to it. And we had a lot back and forth then very begrudgingly, Igot a referral pretty much because I refused to leave without one. And
then, you know, the motions start if you're getting called in to thespecialist breast care unit and all of that. So I went in and I, you know, the

(17:43):
consultant first said to me, have you come on your own when I went to anappointment? And I said, Yes, because the GP said there's nothing wrong
with me. She was like, Well, you know, there's one, if not two, lumps in yourbreast combined with an inverted nipple, I've got real cause for concern.
I want to get you biopsied and mammogrammed immediately. So I was a bit likegot in a state of shock because I just thought I was getting going to get the

(18:04):
all clear. And over the next few days, you know, everything just happenedvery quickly. I was mammogrammed and then called in for a biopsy and
ultrasound. When I went to the biopsy, the person who was carrying out thatprocedure hadn't read the registrar or consultant's note that they'd
only read the doctor's notes. So they were like, Oh, why are you here? Andwhy have you brought someone with you? There's nothing wrong with you. And

(18:24):
I was like, No, the consultant has confirmed there's two lumps in mybreast. She's like, No, no, no, the GP's report says there's nothing wrong
with your breast. And I was like, No, there is because I can actually nowfeel them. This is this is, you know, weeks on. She goes, Well, you don't
need anyone in the room. This is going to be a two minute job. Leave heroutside. So we had an argument about whether my friend could come in or not.
And I got on the bed and just really angrily said, Well, just do theultrasound. And I'm sure you'll call her in in a minute. And exactly, you

(18:48):
know, that happened within seconds of that machine going on my breast.They said, call her friend in, we're going to biopsy her. They then took
what felt like 10 to 12 samples, they did take a lot. There were two masses inmy breast. And it was sort of August holiday time. And we were coming up to a
bank holiday. And once the procedure was done, I said to her, theconsultant told me, you'd be able to give me an indication of what you might

(19:12):
have seen. And she just turned around, she goes, Yeah, it doesn't lookgood. And that, and that was it. That was it. And so my best friend was like,
she scooped me up, you know, I was in tears. And she said, let's go and let'sgo and get a hot chocolate and talk about this. And I think that was the point
at which I really knew that I had breast cancer. I didn't obviously know theextent of it. But she then my friend confirmed to me because she was like, I

(19:34):
saw the screen, you know, there's there's something there. So we can't, wecan't sort of dress this up in anything other than there's something
serious to worry about. And as the weeks went by, you know, I was told itwould be 10 days because there was some bank holidays. And that was on a
Friday, I got a call on the Monday to say, can you come in to see theconsultant? So I knew by that point, you don't you don't get results one day

(19:54):
later, one working day later anyway, if it's nothing to worry about. And byWednesday, we're in for to see the breast surgeon. And my husband and I went
in and he basically his words to me were, Kreena, you've got some naughtiesin your brea- in your breast. And I looked at him and I was like, are you
trying to say I've got breast cancer? And he goes, yes. And I said, I'drather we just call it what it is. Because I'm not a five year old that you

(20:19):
need to say it's like a naughty or a boo boo or something like that. This iscancer. And we need to deal with it. We need to call it out for what it is. We
went into that appointment. I expected to hear that news. So I prepared forit. My husband, however, hadn't. He was very much burying his head in the
sand. And as soon as the words landed, he just cried. And I'd never seen himcry in my whole relationship up until that point. And I think that brought

(20:43):
with it so much hurt for me. I think I then started to feel responsible forother people's pain. And just a very complex journey thereon in with, you
know, the disease itself and then the repercussions of how that impactedmy family and how I shared my family. I think what we have is very different.

(21:04):
Toral's family were very open and because of her mum's diagnosis, theyspoke openly about it. Whereas, my family didn't really have any
knowledge of how to deal with it in that way. And so I became their protectorand almost became apologetic for what was happening to me. And then I was
like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay convincing them wheninside you're just crumbling. And it was really, it was really tricky. And

(21:27):
I didn't share my diagnosis news, really with anyone outside my immediatefamily and my bestest friends for a good two to three months until I'd
started chemotherapy. And it became impossible to hide what was going on.Kreena, you've just said so many shocking things that to me, a person who's
been part of this breast cancer community for 11 and a half years, I'mshocked by some of the things you just told me about the treatment that

(21:50):
you've had from medical professionals in this country. So I'm sorry thatthat happened to you. And I'm sorry that people of a young age are being
dismissed. I'm actually getting quite emotional just hearing both ofyour stories. There are so many things that resonated with me from what you
said. So I'm going to have to remember some of them. But one of the thingsthat I wanted to go back to was you talking about how as a South Asian woman,

(22:14):
you're expected to have children and you felt shame around some of thethings that happened in your diagnosis, some of the ways that you were
treated, the ways you came to talk or not talk about your breast cancerdiagnosis with your community, which brings us all on to the South Asian
Supernovas. So tell me why you set up this organisation and what you'rehoping to achieve with it, please. Kreena and I actually met in the

(22:43):
pandemic and this particular conversation about the outcomes of and theimpact on the South Asian community has been part of my life. You know,
since the last 20 years, I was discriminated against and I didn't realizethe extent of which until a few years later. And part of it was obviously the
age thing. But secondly, you know, being South Asian and I knew from theconversations I was having with other members in the community, extended

(23:12):
family that there's a lot of secrecy, a lot of shame. And then Kreena and Imet online and we knew that we wanted to start something and talk about in
this space. But you know, as the pandemic happened, she had triplets. I hadbreast cancer again. Her mum died, my dad died. So it took us a little while
to kind of get ourselves together. But the main thing is we know that theoutcomes like black women are much poorer and we know that there's layers

(23:39):
and nuances of our culture and our culture and condition that impact usvery differently than the white population. So for example, when we talk
about the fertility and having children, as South Asian women we'reexpected to have children and for me, being child free is still a huge
source of hurt and pain. And part of that is not meeting someone, but part ofit is the cancer diagnosis because if I get pregnant now, it's very

(24:04):
dangerous for me because of the oestrogen. And we know from Kreena'sjourney that people just don't talk about these things. The second thing
is the hair. Our hair is our crowning glory. And from the age of, you know,being very small, your hair's oiled, your head is massaged, they're
combing your hair, it's always about having long hair. I remember when Icut my hair at university, my dad, didn't talk to me for three days. You

(24:24):
know, these are the things even in liberal modern families, it is just partand parcel of your life. And then there's a whole thing about how breast
cancer impacts our health in different ways, or the impact of our health onbreast cancer. For example, if you have type 2 diabetes, which is so hugely
prevalent in the South Asian community, six times more likely, you'reapproximately 20% more likely to have breast cancer. And doctors and

(24:49):
people do not talk about this. They don't talk about their metabolichealth and how that impacts it. They don't talk about the kind of how your
cardiovascular health could be impacted by treatment. So, Kreena willtell you more about cardiotoxicity. But what we know is that we're more
likely to have cardiovascular health issues. And maybe by geneticscreening, or by testing, we could find that out before you start

(25:10):
treatment. And then people don't have to go through what Kreena wentthrough. And so we knew there was a space to try and change outcomes. And it
wasn't just from like providing a support space. This is about talking tohealthcare organisations, doctors, healthcare professionals,
charities, to really look at kind of understanding, breaking down,unpicking the taboos, the myths, but also why we have these issues and why

(25:32):
breast cancer and we're being diagnosed so late. Why are we not attendingroutine screening? Why? Because people, the communications are out
there are not for our community. I'll let Kreena share a bit more. Yeah. Sofollowing on from that, I think that the hair is a big thing, like actually,
so I didn't cry the day I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I cried the day Ihad to have chemotherapy. I found out I had to have chemotherapy. My

(25:54):
original treatment plan was going to be radiotherapy. Then when theychecked lymph nodes, they said we're going to have to switch to
chemotherapy at that, at that point, my world fell apart because I thoughtI'm going to lose the hair on my head. And I cold capped even on a bald head
just to preserve front fringing. So people could, I mean, in my headwouldn't know I was bald, but everyone knew I was bald. I never showed my mum

(26:17):
my bald head, not once through my entire diagnosis. I remember similarlyat 16, I went from waist to bum length, waist, bum length hair, which I'd had
my entire life, to a bob because I was just feeling rebellious. And I waslike, God, I'm so fed up with my mum telling me my, and she's like, your hair
is your beauty, your hair is your beauty. And no one will marry you ifyou've got short hair. marriageability marriage is a big thing we talk

(26:39):
about and the tick boxes of our lives. And again, I cut my hair to bob and shedidn't talk to me for a week. And she told me I'd lost all my beauty and that no
one would marry me. And so then when I fast forward from 16 to 33, and now I'mgoing to lose every hair on my head, I couldn't show it to her. Because such
is the imprint of that conditioning. And it's really painful. So I thinkhair loss is traumatic for any of us. Hair loss in the South Asian community

(27:07):
seems to have another layer attached to it. And that's not somethingthat's talked about. And one of the things when I remember, actually, you
know, we started talking online, but I'd been following her and her workfor way before. And I was like, who can I work with to, you know, who can we,
who can we, who in this space is going to have the same passion? And I waswatching everything she was doing and like approached her then to say,

(27:28):
look, let's do this. And we came together and I think you know, watchinganother woman talk openly about breast cancer was really empowering to me
and allowed me to then be more vulnerable and have these conversations.And one thing I used to speak up about was that I had my mastectomy without
reconstruction and went into a fitting for a prosthetic and was just told Ihad to wear a white woman's prosthetic because they didn't stock them in

(27:52):
black or brown skin tones. And now I'm like, hold on, I've never seen a whitewoman have to wear a black or brown
one so why are the brown women being asked to wear white ones?I was You know, that is, that's just horrendous. I went for a wig fitting and
I was given a blonde wig to try on. You know, you can see that I've got blackhair and he said, we haven't got many black or dark South Asian style wigs.

(28:12):
So why don't you put this blonde one on? And if you like the style, we'll get asuitable colour match. And I was a bit like, I did it and I've got the photo of
me wearing it. And I'm a bit like, now I look back and I'm like, that's addedtrauma that a white woman doesn't have to go through. But I have to because
I'm a person of colour. And it's lymphoedema sleeves as well Andlymphoedema sleeves. Yeah. So then that went into lymphoedema clinic
and they got lymphoedema and they put it on and they're like, this is, thisis our nude one. And I'm like, nude for who? Because that's not a nude for me.

(28:38):
You know, and then the movement sort of came out on Instagram as well thatnude is not one colour and, you know, petitions were launched and we need to
do more to have, you know, sleeves that match people's skin tone. Becauseagain, you go out, you're wearing a short sleeve dress. It's triggering
when everyone asks you, what's wrong with your arm? Because it's soobvious that you're wearing a sleeve. The psychological impact of not

(28:58):
being seen and heard is, it's hard. And I, somebody who's been dealing withbreast cancer for 17 years, it's still quite cliquey, the breast cancer
community. And it's still very white. And the charities have promotedthat almost. So that's part of the problem as well, because we have not
addressed it. And you know, South Asians are the biggest ethnic minorityin the UK. We make up between 7 to 10% of the population now. Yet we're very

(29:25):
invisible when it comes to media. We're not seen in, and if we're on a TVshow, we're either a shopkeeper or a doctor. There's literally nothing
else. And it's really upsetting not to see yourself. I've been watchingthese American shows over the last couple of years, you know, Never Have I
Ever, like even Bridgerton and stuff. And seeing South Asian femaleprotagonists, my life would have been so different if I'd seen that in my

(29:46):
teens and had that role model. And, you know, so now Kreena and I need to bethe role models. Like, you know, when it comes to marriageability, like
that's such a big source of shame for me and difficulty. When I was beingwheeled down to have my very first lumpectomy, wide local excision, it was
a South Asian anaesthetist who knew my family, knew my mother. And she saidto me, Toral, don't worry, I won't tell anyone about your breast cancer. I

(30:11):
said, A, Hippocratic oath and you can't. And B, why? I'm telling people,there's nothing to be ashamed of and she goes But I know you want to get
married. I said, well, if they're not going to, I mean, they're going tofind out. Breast cancer. So I don't have a breast, I have a reconstruction.
This is ridiculous. And so this is the conversation I'm having as I'm beingwheeled down to theatre. And this is so it's not just external, it's

(30:31):
internal too. We have our own cultural conditioning and these thingswhich are put on us. And I'm, you know, in our culture, if you're not married
by some point, if people introduce you, no one's ever introduced you. Ifell off the shelf at 29. I literally fell off the shelf. And in some ways,
it's made my life beautiful and brilliant and no pressure. But it's alsosad. It's so sad. And the impact of marriageability is huge. And, you know,

(30:55):
once I got married and then I got my diagnosis, I had a fear that my husband'sfamily would tell him to leave me because I was damaged goods, because I
couldn't have children and because I was no longer beautiful. And, youknow, one of the things I write about a lot, and we talk about it as a, you
know, culture and cultural conditioning, is that I think I spent my entirelife up until the age of 28, 29, becoming marriageable. So studying so that

(31:23):
I had a high performing job, so that I was a good earner. I owned a big house,you know, I was fertile. I had long hair. I was pretty. All of these tick
boxes and then breast cancer comes along and all these tick boxes fallaway. And what's left behind is almost a hollow shell because we've not
been taught to look inwards in any other way and to appreciate ourselves inany other way, other than the acceptance of our potential husband. And so

(31:50):
this is a huge issue, marriageability and the impact of those behaviors onsomeone once they have had a cancer diagnosis. And also the conversations
people have with people who've had a cancer diagnosis because then youhad, I mean, when I was getting married, my parents had divorced and the
community was saying, oh, no one will marry Kreena because she comes from adivorced family. Or, you know, if you've had breast cancer before
marriage, one of my friends called me and his sister-in-law had beendiagnosed with breast cancer and this is someone who knows I work in this

(32:16):
space. The words straight from his mouth were, well, we did let him marryher knowing that she'd had breast cancer. And I was like, wow, you know,
like this is in 2021. I'm having this conversation this many years after. Iwas like, why are people still being branded as damaged goods just because
they've had breast cancer? In fact, I think I'm a much higher quality goodhaving had my breast cancer because I'm a better quality human being

(32:40):
because of the empathy and appreciation of life that runs through myveins. So we have to change that narrative within our community. And we
have to, acceptance is huge. Acceptance of the disease, acceptance of thelifestyle it then goes on to give way to, acceptance of children born in
different ways. Acceptance of a woman rocking a bald head, like, let'smake it normal and let's make it be seen. And the other thing we have to talk

(33:02):
about is kind of our society as a whole. It's still very patriarchal,whatever culture, but particularly in our South Asian culture. So if you
do get a breast cancer diagnosis or any cancer diagnosis, you're kind ofexpected to carry on. And as Kreena touched on earlier, just like almost
look after everyone else. And as much as my family talked about breastcancer and they were there for me, I still had to do that. I still had to

(33:25):
manage people's emotional expectations within my family. But also in theway that you can't even ask for help in the way you expect it. And even this
time, my third diagnosis in the pandemic, I asked my extended family forhelp. But their whole way was, no, you have to accept the help that we want to
give. And that's very A, centering themselves and B, patriarchal.Because as a woman, I know what I need. I know what help I need, especially

(33:49):
because I've done this three times before. I know what I can do on my own and Iknow what help I need. So there's also that aspect of kind of the culture and
cultural conditioning that maybe other cultures don't have to, you know,and I know of so many cases where women having chemotherapy,
radiotherapy, surgery and expected to cooking for their husband'sfamilies and their in-laws and just look after kids and they're just
suffering. I'm hearing from you that there is work to be done both in thehealth care community, you know, in hospitals and in support centres that

(34:20):
are providing the sleeves and the wigs and the prosthetics. But there'salso work to be done within the South Asian community in terms of educating
the family members and the friends of the breast cancer patient. Let's saya South Asian person is listening to this podcast, who has recently been
diagnosed with breast cancer like you both were a while ago. What advicewould you give them? What would you say to them in terms of talking to their

(34:48):
family and friends and also talking to their health care providers? Ithink that that's such an interesting question. It's one that we're asked
all the time. And I think what I'd like to say is quite often there are realnuances within our community that we definitely need to iron out. But we
are also across all sort of parts of the South Asian community, a veryloving community. So you only have to look when a baby's born and when

(35:17):
someone passes and when someone gets married, those are the biggestgatherings of people. And everyone turns up with love in those instances.
So we just need to learn to extend that level of love to disease and totherefore just talk about it so it becomes acceptable, normalise the
conversations. And I think, you know, maybe with raised tinted glasseson, but, you know, people will show up if they know what they need to show up

(35:40):
for. So advocate for yourself. And like Toral says, let people know whatyou need from them and make it clear where your boundary is. So actually,
no, I'm not going to be able to cook for you on, you know, my week one and two,because I'm going to feel like awful, awful. So we have these huge extended
families. So actually, that sister-in-law can cook on that day. That, youknow, that that auntie can cook on that day. Line it up like I think planning

(36:04):
is really important and asking for help, because I wasn't very good atasking for help. We're not taught to ask for help because we're taught to be
perfect and small and academic and brilliant. And we're just not taught tobe vulnerable and to know how to actually break our barriers down, but to
ask for help because we are supposed to be able to do it all. And we can't, wecan't. And that's I mean, I'm still guilty of that to this day, you know, as a

(36:29):
mum of four now. And like just yesterday, I said, I've been at cardiologyappointments all day and I was exhausted when I got home. And it's a bit
like, well, actually, do you know what? I just need to tell someone that Ican't do anymore now because we just keep... And women, you know, not only
South Asian women, we keep taking it on, we keep taking it on. And then onepoint we'll hit breaking point and we need to stop before that and ask for

(36:51):
help. And I think this is the interesting and wonderful and brilliantthing about breast cancer is our self worth as women. And this is all over
the board, whatever culture is so much more what we're doing. Yet it reallyshould be about who we're being. And when you have a diagnosis like breast
cancer, it does make you stop and look internally. And for me, it was thebeginning of a huge journey of self development to where I really like want

(37:14):
to have integrity. And I'm constantly looking how it can be a better personeach day. But that self worth, it's something that we're not taught. And I
think as all women, where a lot of our lives are still in the modern worldabout how we look, it does change things. Yeah. And how we prove ourselves

(37:35):
society. And so for us, it's quite often being an academic or being, havinga vocational career and all of that. I mean, if I told my grandmother who
passed away like, I was going to leave accountancy to write a book, then,you know, they'd all be like, Oh my... even my mum was a little bit like, this
is a great side hustle, Kreena, but please don't let go of accountancy.You know, that's that's what we know will bring the money in. And that's

(37:56):
that stems from colonialism from scarcity, from poverty, where ourparents have come from. And, you know, I feel like having had breast
cancer, we can use it in a very empowering way if we allow ourselves to. Sofor that patient who's just been diagnosed, one is just just put some
boundaries up and self advocate. And for the health care professional,it's, you know, yes, provide what they need practically. But also, I think

(38:21):
there needs to be real training on how to support mentally for minoritycommunities, because it's so very different to the counselling you get.
I'm Gareth, the editor of Vita magazine. Vita is Breast Cancer Now'smagazine for anyone affected by breast cancer. It's full of inspiring
real life stories, expert tips on coping with the effects of breast cancerand articles on health and wellbeing. In our new spring issue, you can read

(38:48):
about a mother and daughter who were both diagnosed with breast cancer 12years apart. Find out the latest in breast cancer research. Get tips on
coping with fatigue. Read about the benefits of getting outdoors and muchmore. Subscribe to Vita now at breastcancernow.org/vita We've talked

(39:08):
quite a lot about what happens after you're diagnosed, how you talk to yourcommunity about it and how the health care professionals deal with it. But
diagnosis is also really difficult within the South Asian community,because there's shame and there's fear around going to the doctors in the
first place. Towards the end of 2023, you launched a brilliant campaigntalking to women in your community about going to the doctors. Can you tell

(39:37):
us about that campaign? Yeah, so what we know from the statistics is thatSouth Asian women are not likely, less likely to go to A, self-check, B,
have routine screening mammograms and C, kind of really be aware of thesigns and symptoms of breast cancer. And that's where it starts, is
awareness. I mean, I also would love to go into the risk factors, but we'renot going to talk about that today. But like, if you don't know the signs and

(40:01):
symptoms, how are you going to look for them? So when surveyed by BreastCancer Now and other organisations, we're coming up poorly. So we set up
this campaign and we're using social media because that's the avenue wehave available to us. But we're trying to use the younger generation of
South Asians to educate their older members of family, mothers, aunts,grandmas, but uncles, cousins, brothers, because men need to know too,

(40:24):
because men do get breast cancer, but also they often are the ones whomight notice changes more, if in a relationship with someone. So our
campaign was using an amazing group of South Asian breast cancerpatients, healthcare professionals, doctors and influencers in our
community to share about the signs and symptoms, remind people of theimportance of self-checking and how to do this and also to attend routine

(40:48):
screening, because we're the group that actually attends the least. Andso for example, like we had my mum was in the campaign, which is amazing. And
she had her first routine mammogram, which she went along with becauseshe  just was invited. And that's when they found her breast cancer. And
she had three tumours. And so she wouldn't have found that for ages if shehadn't had the routine... And she was younger. It was, you know, she was 49.

(41:11):
So I think that's why this campaign for us became really, really importantbecause we have to start at the beginning. We have to create that awareness
and what to look for and, you know, how to do this. And then Kreena and I startthinking, well, how do we kind of get that message out there? And I'll let
her share more about that. Well, yeah, we want, we basically, you know, we,we know that it's an issue from the data, like Toral says. We also fully

(41:35):
acknowledge the diversity in the South Asian community. So what wasimportant to us was that while Toral and I are both Gujurati girls and that
is the largest sort of minority within the South Asian community, thereare so many other communities we need to be representative of. And that's
that's probably a nuance of being a South Asian. So, you know, it's eightdifferent countries, multiple languages, multiple religions, so many

(42:02):
layers that we need to look at for this. So whereas some minoritycommunities don't have to come against, you know, language being a
barrier, that is for us, religion being a barrier, that is for us. And thenconditioning being a barrier, that is for us. So we wanted to do something
that made it as accessible as possible. So we, we curated our cast knowingthat. So we made sure we had Jains in the, in set. We made sure we had Hindus.

(42:26):
We had Sikhs. We had Muslim people. We had a diverse range of ethnicitieswithin there. So we wanted to make sure that as many people who saw the
campaign could resonate with someone within the campaign. And what wealso know is the power of the family WhatsApp group in our community. So my
mother-in-law is forever showing me media on her phone that says, eat thisand your toothache will go drink this and your bellyache will go. But some

(42:51):
of it really is just nonsense. And so we thought, well, let's use that toactually rather than tell, we initially started it off by telling Auntie
G, who is the one who forwards all of these messages, what she's doingwrong. And we thought, actually, no, let's not crush her. Let's empower
her. So what we'll do is give her a message that will help her tell otherpeople what to look for when it comes to breast cancer. So she became the

(43:13):
focus of our campaign, the Auntie G, who we all know and love, who sometimesis a bit inappropriate with her messaging. And maybe forwards
misinformation. We wanted to give her the right information. Soeverything was created around Dear Auntie G, do you know the signs and
symptoms of breast cancer? The content was created so that, yes, it sits onsocial media that our peers will see, but it will get onto the family

(43:34):
WhatsApp group that all the elders will see, because that's the media thatthey're digesting. And I think it's important that we think about what
media is the demographic we want to access actually looking at andwatching. You know, they're not watching Instagram because they don't
have Instagram accounts. They're not watching BBC News or This Morning orLorraine because they don't speak English. So what are the channels? What
are the radio stations and what are the avenues that they take theinformation from? So we launched the campaign. It's been massively

(43:59):
successful. And, you know, it's out there doing its thing. And I thinkwe're both super proud of how far it's gone and what we've achieved with it
in a really short time. I'm so proud of us because the concept to outputhappened in less than two months. And, you know, for anyone who works with
you, you know, something like that is insane. Kreea and I are severelysleep-deprived, but I'm so proud of this. It's absolutely, absolutely

(44:25):
brilliant. It's such a brilliant, powerful campaign, you know, seeing itas a white woman, not part of your community at all, but just, you know, it
completely captured me. And I can see how it's really, really going toreach, you know, so many people in such a brilliant way. Ultimately, the
aim is then to sort of get the stories out of everyone who's in the campaign,get the messaging out. But we also now have the second wave, which we're

(44:50):
recording, which is sort of multilingual self-checks and things likethat, that then land on people's phones. So, so, so that it's as accessible
as it can be. Fantastic. You've both been through so much. And I actuallyjust wanted to ask the question to each of you. How are you? You know, it's a
really good question. I think like other cancer patients, for me, youknow, things are up and down. Like, I've just had my six-monthly PET scan

(45:14):
and I'm waiting with scanxiety, like other people, to see what'shappening. I have some active lymph nodes which have been there for, I
don't know, four or five years. And it's a watch and wait situation. Butotherwise, well, I just feel so grateful, I have Kreena, because I can talk
to her about things I don't talk to about... Not that I don't have otherbreast cancer friends I do, but in a way that understands kind of all the

(45:38):
nuances of my life. And we've become like sisters and we fight. Don't get mewrong. Yeah, one of us is always pissed off with the other. That's me
probably more than Kreena. But I do think that having someone that you canreally talk to about kind of all the intricacies, makes such a difference,
especially because for me, I don't have a partner. And yeah, my family, mydad just died. You know, my brother lives in Hong Kong. It's hard. And so for

(46:02):
me, having like this sisterhood is so important. Yeah. I think it's greatfor anyone diagnosed with breast cancer to have a friend or a person who has
breast cancer as well or has had it, who has experienced it and who gets it.Just as that support network. And also, you just like, you know, I've had so
many friends. And sadly, so many of my friends have passed away. And for me,I feel like I'm constantly in heartbreak. And so having someone, you know,

(46:31):
literally, I don't think Kreena's four children will let her go anywhere.So she's stuck with me too. And how are you, Kreena? And how are your kids?
Yeah, I mean, it's tricky. I feel like I'm constantly up and down. And I'm,you know, I think it's exhausting. And like one of the things Toral and I
talk about is that actually this work is exhausting as well. And it's it'squite triggering and it brings our trauma back to the surface. And if I'm

(46:54):
honest, I don't think we're held enough and we're expected to do more. So,you know, it just things like the campaign, you know, we've run that from
scratch because we have no funding, we have no sponsor, you know, we havehad one sponsor and say therefore we're burnt out delivering it. But the
messaging is important. So we really need we need investment if I'm honestto help alleviate the burden on us. But then otherwise, you know, like we

(47:16):
didn't talk too much about my heart failure. But the one thing that reallyscares me is this is the impact of my heart because it's a lifelong
condition now. And I really want people to know that if if they strugglewith breathing and stuff after chemo to get it checked, because I don't
want people to be as severe as me. I was, you know, fatal with my heartfailure. And so yesterday I spent the whole day in cardiology and, you

(47:38):
know, with this fear about my heart regressing and then comes a fear ofpotentially leaving my children. And I was talking to my friend Emma, who I
found crossing the road at the Marsden when I was leaving the Brompton. AndI was like, you know, sometimes I feel guilty, like I can't talk about how
I'm scared of dying because I don't have secondary breast cancer. Butactually, I have a cardiac condition that that is as fatal. And that

(47:59):
conversation isn't had enough. And so it's very difficult. Like Toral,you know, I lost my mum less than two years ago. I lost my dad less than two
months ago. I lost my friend Nicky last month. And it's been really, reallyemotional. So I'm not sure how I am, if I'm honest, because then I've got
four children to look after. And you can ask any mother like that'sexhausting. And the work's tiring. But, you know, we do it because saving

(48:23):
lives is so important to us. And so I'm not going to say I'm brilliantbecause I'm not sure I am. But I think it's OK for us to also sit here and admit
that as well, because that's super important. And sometimes it's nicebecause like Toral says, I have her. And yesterday I left her with this
ranting voicemail about, you know, blah, blah, blah. My husband's donethis and my sister's done, you know, just someone to offload on. Because

(48:45):
actually the people that we spend 24 7 with don't... sometimes they reallyjust don't get it. And, you know, whilst my husband's walked the cancer
path with me, he won't understand the emotional impact and, you know, thelasting imprint that it has on my life as well as someone who's been through
breast cancer. But also there's a massive, you know, as with my husband,there's a massive impact on them as well. And so you talked at the beginning

(49:10):
of the podcast about how you sometimes as a cancer patient feel like aburden on others, which is something that I've massively felt. And so I try
to minimize the stuff that I put on my closest loved ones. I try and put thatstuff on people, on other people instead, because I don't want to add more

(49:30):
pain and fear to what I'm sure they are already feeling, you know. Andthere's a level of I think a part of me wants a level of detachment in my home.
So it's nicer for me to talk about cancer with people who don't live in mysame four walls, because I kind of want those four walls to be a bit more
sacred. And therefore I don't I'm not as open with it. So I find it veryawkward as well to talk about breast cancer. And, you know, it's it's it's

(49:55):
very complex, but I don't talk to my sister or my sister in law or my cousinsabout my breast cancer diagnosis. I talk to my community about it because I
feel held there. And that's partly why we're here with the Breast CancerNow podcast, you know, because so, you know, everyone probably in this
community feels like that to some degree. And so to have a place wherepeople can come to just listen and feel like there's a friend on the other

(50:17):
side of the earpiece. And, you know, I think that's such a big thing. When Iwas first diagnosed back in 2006, pre-social media, the one thing that
really helped me was Breast Cancer Now. They had a kind of a matching kind ofa service where you could talk to someone on the telephone, like a
telephone penpal. And whilst I never met her, I have no idea what she lookslike. You know, you weren't allowed to share kind of details apart from

(50:41):
your cancer details. That helped me because I didn't know any other youngpeople with breast cancer. There was no one in the hospital that was anyone
like me. And the other day I was in, you know, waiting for my scan. There was ayounger woman who was South Asian, like the only woman of colour. And I was a
bit like, oh my God, should I go talk to her? Like, yeah, then I did it becauseI just thought, like a twit. But like, it was ridiculous that that, you

(51:02):
know, we're still as younger women, the three of us are sitting here alldiagnosed before the age of 35, it's still rare, you know, only 4% breast
cancer is diagnosed to people under 40. And we're sitting in, we're stillalways the youngest people there. And people are, why are we there? And I
think having that community is even more important for us, where ournatural life doesn't mean that we're meeting other people with breast

(51:24):
cancer, if that makes sense. Yeah. And similarly, when I was diagnosed,because, you know, Instagram wasn't as big back then and I wasn't on it for
sure. But what I did join through Facebook, I'd found Younger Women WithBreast Cancer, two day workshop. And I went to that. Oh my God, you know,
that was 10 years ago and we're still friends. You know, we were set up, wecalled ourselves on Facebook a little group called the Bionic Beauties

(51:50):
and we would meet up, you know, once a year and just talk on Facebook aboutthings that we couldn't talk about with other people. And so facilitating
those relationships, like, you know, we're still friends and we've lostsome of our group and we've mourned them together and then we've
celebrated milestones. So, you know, this year is 10 years for me. It's 10years for my entire group, you know, of us who are still standing. And so

(52:15):
every month we're all congratulating each other and now the posts arecoming on, oh, it's my last Tamoxifen today and it's my last this today and
it's just lovely that that connection. We're not, yeah, we don't talkevery day, but we're connected and I think we will be forever more. If any of
our listeners are, you know, wanting to find that person, then BreastCancer Now actually still has a similar service called Someone Like Me. So

(52:37):
if you just go online and search for Breast Cancer Now, Someone Like Me, orgo on the Breast Cancer Now website, you can find that service. So there's
one question that we're asking all of our guests on this podcast, which iswhat is the one thing that you think needs to change in breast cancer? So we
need to collect more data and we need more research, both in primary andsecondary breast cancer, but particularly including marginalized

(53:03):
groups, including people of colour and different ethnicities, but alsoother marginalised groups too. Thank you. For me, I think it's
representation, representation in media, representation incampaigns, representation in clinical trials, representation in sort
of the oncology space overall. Absolutely. Thank you. So where can peoplefind South Asian Supernovas? And also if people can get involved, how do

(53:28):
they get involved? So we're on all the major social media platforms underthe handle @SouthAsianSupernovas So, you know, we are Instagram,
TikTok, we've got a Facebook group, and that particular Facebook group isreally useful because we put all sorts of opportunities in there,
including patient groups and other conversations, and we do have awebsite too, so check us out. And where can people find you personally? I'm

(53:54):
mainly on Instagram, just @kreenadhiman or online at my website atwww.kreenadhiman.com I'm on Instagram and Facebook @theurbankitchen
which is the name of my consultancy, and the websitewww.theurbancitchen.co.uk And if you're a primary breast cancer
patient, I have an integrative breast cancer course which can help youreduce your risk and support you through the cancer journey and beyond.

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And we have put all of those links in the show notes, so people do not need tobe furiously writing it down. Kreena and Toral, thank you so much for
joining us. This has been so enlightening, and I feel like I could havespoken to you for hours, and hopefully we will go on talking after the
podcast, but thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Before we actuallygo, can we just say a massive thank you to Breast Cancer Now for all of the

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help with the campaign because I'm not sure we could have brought it to lifewithout all of the support of the team there, so thank you very much. And in
so many ways, from marketing through to multimedia through toeverything, literally press releases, they've held our hands, and I
think having that support has actually helped us to make it a reality. It isa fantastic campaign, so congratulations, and I look forward to seeing

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where it goes in the next couple of years as well. Thank you. Thank you. Ifyou enjoyed this episode of the Breast Cancer Now podcast, make sure to
subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.Please also leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts and perhaps
recommend it to someone you think would find it helpful. The more people wecan reach, the more we can get Breast Cancer Now's vital resources to those

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who need them. You can find support and information on our website,breastcancernow.org, and you can follow Breast Cancer Now on social
media at Breast Cancer Now. All the links mentioned in this episode arelisted in the show notes in your podcast app. Thank you for listening to the
Breast Cancer Now podcast.