May 29, 2026 • 37 mins
Summary
In this inspiring interview, Devin Fish shares his journey from a challenging childhood and military service to overcoming hopelessness and finding faith. Discover how hope, faith, and resilience can transform lives and learn practical insights for mental health and personal growth.
Key topics
- The impact of hope and hopelessness on mental health
- Devin Fish's personal journey from adversity to faith
- The role of faith in overcoming life's challenges
Titles
- From Hopelessness to Hope: Devin Fish's Journey of Resilience
- How Faith and Hope Transformed a Life of Adversity
Sound Bites
- "I considered heavily taking my life in 2019"
- "Believing I am happy can make me happy again"
- "Walking in truth will lead to the light"
Chapters
00:00
Introduction to Hope and Hopelessness
02:04
Devin Fish's Journey: From Hopelessness to Healing
17:43
The Role of Hope in Recovery and Faith
27:59
Social Media's Impact on Hope and Connection
Resources
"Wherever you find yourself is exactly and precisely where God wills you to be"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Live from the Clarity from Chaos Studios,
heard worldwide, it's DaveCampbell.
On every episode, Dave and hisguests explore, discuss, and
work on solutions to some oflife's biggest challenges.
So if you're ready, be preparedto be enlightened, amused, and
even shocked by what you hear.
(00:32):
And now, the real, theauthentic, the one and only Dave
Campbell.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Hi, I'm Dave Campbell, and you are listening
to Clarity from Chaos.
This is somewhere where we tryvery hard to unwrap the nonsense
that you hear from corporatemedia on a daily basis.
And I want to thank you formaking us part of your day.
On this edition of Clarity,we're going to be discussing a
term that society hasconveniently avoided, and that
(01:02):
term is hope.
In my opinion, it's the rootcause of a very wide variety of
issues in our society today, andour guest on this episode is the
experience of the loss of hopeand all of its evil, numerous
outcomes.
Growing up in a household shapedby his parents' struggles with
drug and alcohol addiction, hewas removed from any kind of
(01:25):
safety, moving frequently,relying on food stamps just to
get by.
Bullied at school, combined withthe environment at home, he
stopped caring for life.
After the loss of his mother,his mental health began to
spiral down.
An overwhelming sense ofhopelessness caused him to
self-admit to a hospital.
(01:47):
From there, he began his longjourney of courage,
perseverance, and healing thatultimately brought him to where
he is today.
I am incredibly pleased towelcome the author of the
best-selling book Answering theHard Questions, Mr.
Devin Fish.
Devin joined the Army and servednearly 10 years as a Cavalry
(02:09):
Scout and later a careercounselor.
In 2021, he was awarded thefirst CAV Division Retention NCO
of the Year Award.
While he was stationed inKuwait, Devin wrote Answering
the Hard Questions.
He has channeled the lessons hehas learned into that book and
(02:30):
into inspiration for others.
Welcome to the show, Devin.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
And of course, you know, thankfor letting me be a part of the
conversation and thank you forthe great introduction.
SPEAKER_03 (02:42):
Oh no, no, no.
You're welcome.
You're very welcome.
So, as painful as is, and I hateto ask this question, could you
kind of give people a somewhatof a background that brought you
to the book and everything, youknow, your past experiences and
stuff like that that you drew onlater after your recovery that
(03:04):
that helped, you know, write thebook, the experiences?
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Yeah.
Uh so I can get a pretty briefbackground because sometimes
it'll take me like an hour and ahalf to give like the full
story.
But I'm sure, you know, probablydon't have like two, three hours
to actually sit down and get allthe questions.
SPEAKER_03 (03:21):
Yeah.
No, whatever, whatever you feelis necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah.
So I come from a town calledRockford, Illinois.
So I grew up, I was born andraised there for the first 18
years of my life.
During that time, I know, likeyou said in the introduction, it
was pretty ins instable.
Um, so I moved about 16 timesbefore I was 18.
Um, I recounted it when I madethe book, and it's around like
30, and I'm 28 years old now.
So I've moved more than theyears I've been a lot.
(03:48):
From there, I also grew up inpoverty.
Like you said, you covered itwith the food stamps.
I also went to like sevendifferent schools.
I've lived in like houses,apartments, trailers, farms, all
the way down to like a motel.
Living conditions weren't alwaysgreat.
So um sometimes we didn't haveACs, sometimes we didn't have
hot water, sometimes we didn'teven have a toilet for a while.
And then I've also lived withlike my mother and my father,
(04:08):
two different aunts, friends offamily, and I've also lived with
grandparents.
So I lived a little bit ofeverything, and that was you
know, before getting thrown intothe army.
And then that didn't really stopbecause you know, there's also
stuff happening on with myparents.
So, like you said, you know,drug and alcohol addictions.
So, like right before I left thearmy, I saw my father in the
(04:29):
hospital, and what happened isthat he resisted arrest after
having fireball whiskey andcocaine in his system and
essentially destroyed ourapartment.
I then went to basic trainingimmediately after that, so about
a month, and then I was in thebasic training environment for
about a year straight.
I went to three different basictrainings due to you know going
back and forth.
I failed out of one, and then Ihad to pass basic training two
(04:51):
more times after that.
Just kind of got unlucky there.
2019 comes around, so I washeading to my first unit, and
then unexpectedly out ofnowhere, my mother dies.
That one did have a little bitof a toll on me, but at the time
it was happening, I wouldn't saythat's what led to me to the
hospital, but these are all kindof like events that were
happening, you know, within oneyear of each other, so it kept
adding up.
Um, and what really sent me tothe hospital was in 2019 I got
(05:14):
to the point where I was pastlike not caring for life, and I
entered like the self-hatredstage of my life to where I'm
like, maybe it's just me, maybeI'm the blame for all this.
And so I kind of put that burdenon my shoulders, which you know
wasn't the right answer at thetime.
And I got myself into situationsto where I started getting into
the dating realm.
Um, I didn't really find anygenuine people though.
(05:35):
I was, you know, because I wasfilled with self-hatred, I was
kind of like looking for love,but because I couldn't find it
myself, I was looking forothers, I never found it.
So 2019 comes around.
Um, I'm not getting any matches.
The only people I'm finding arelike people who are scamming me,
catfishing, and everything likethat.
And so throughout the year, Igot blackmailed at least several
different times.
They cleared out my bank accountmore than once.
(05:57):
And the reason for this was thatI didn't care at this point
because even when I knew, even Igot very good at detecting when
I was going to get blackmailedor when they're going to ask for
something based on what they'reasking for.
And it got to the point wherelike, I'm I don't care, I'll
just give them the money, I'llgive them the photos, I'll do
whatever they want at thispoint.
And then the real breaking pointwas at the end of it in 2019, I
(06:19):
got myself caught up in theworst scam you could possibly
get yourself into, which is thedating scam, or not the dating
scam, it's the age scam.
So you start a conversation,they swapped their ages.
By this time, I black I've beenblackmailed six other times, so
I'm like, I don't care at thispoint, even though you know I
had that six feeling in mystomach.
Sent them the photos, anyways,gave them everything they
wanted.
Next day they blackmailed me.
(06:40):
And then it was from that pointto where I kind of realized what
I just got myself into, and itwas the realization, well, what
if this was a real person, orwhat if it is a real person?
And so for the next month, I'dsay I was considering heavily
taking my life day by day, andthe only reason I didn't do it
was that they didn't theydecided not to leak anything,
and I just kept paying themoney.
And so that, you know, that kindof gives people like a brief
(07:03):
background of everything I kindof went through.
SPEAKER_03 (07:06):
Wow, it sounds like you know, I could I can
certainly understand at thatpoint that everything continued
to pile up and pile up and pileup, and you just couldn't, you
know, you couldn't see the thesurface of the water above you
anymore, right?
You were just getting deeper anddeeper and deeper.
(07:27):
Well now you were in the army atthis point, right?
Still, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Yes.
So I was so at the time ofgetting blackmailed and I
submitted myself to hospital, Iwas probably a brand I was a
brand new NCO just like a couplemonths into it.
Um so there's not only you knowmy family stuff going on and
like the death of my mother, thefather, going to training for
like a year straight, butthere's also the fact that I
have people under me that arelooking for me for guidance, and
(07:53):
you know, so there's also thatstuff going on in the background
as well.
SPEAKER_03 (07:57):
Right, right.
So at what point did you did youthe counseling that you got in
the hospital were was there somespecific trigger Devin that that
just kind of started to unlockit?
Or um was it was it a religiousmoment?
(08:19):
I mean, there I I would thinkthere was some moment where you
you looked at it and and all ofthese bad choices, and then you
went, enough of the bad choices,we're gonna start making other
choices, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
What so was that transition, Devin?
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
What it was is in the hospital, so the counseling
itself never really helped meout too much.
It kind of gave me a little bitof direction when I got out of
the hospital because I had to domandatory counseling.
Um, so I'll probably get intothat one a little bit.
But what really changed me was Iread two little pamphlets in the
hospital.
So it wasn't even you know thehospital itself.
It was, you know, just these twolittle pamphlets.
(08:58):
And the first one said thatthere are a lot of suicidal
people who don't want to endtheir life.
And I thought about that.
I was like, I don't really wantto end my life, and that's kind
of why I sent myself to thehospital.
And answering the hardquestions, that's where the name
of the book spawned.
Because before I went to thehospital, I asked myself, I'm
like, do you want to die?
And luckily the answer I came upwith was no, because I was like,
I I would like to live before Idie, because I look back on my
(09:19):
life and I'm like, this isn'tlife, you know, this is just
suffering.
And so I kind of had to makethat decision before I went to
the hospital, and before I'mlike, okay, let me try to get
help.
And then the second one, whichreally changed my perspective on
life, was um that you can have aperfectly healthy mind, but if
you believe you are depressed,then your brain will slowly make
you depressed.
So I saw that and I'm like,okay, I know I messed up in the
(09:42):
head, I know I'm depressed, Iknow I hate myself.
I knew that very clearly, and soI was like, I I took that
statement, I reversed it.
So I'm like, okay, if I if Ihate myself, but I believe I'm
happy, maybe I can be happyagain.
And I I really I pursued thatfor a lot.
And then I know you asked alittle about if there was any
faith in it.
At this time, I was still prettyheavily anti-religious, and then
(10:05):
when I wrote the book, that'swhere faith kind of came full
circle to me.
So it this was in 2019, so Ijust came to Christianity in
2026.
So that was that was a bigstruggle.
But I I did notice thecorrelation that the more
optimistic I came, the morefaith I started to develop, and
that eventually led me back tothe faith.
SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
You know, it it's kind of funny, and it as a side
as a side note, Devin, I I weara wristband that basically is
Philippians, Philippians 4, 8,which is basically what you
think uh is is the mostimportant thing.
So you need to concentrate onhonesty, purity, the good things
(10:46):
out there.
If you if you maintain those inthe front of in the front of
your mind, uh that's whereyou're going to be.
And and and to your point, ifyou're on the other side of the
hill and all you think about arethe uh the ugly, ugly twists of
the world, eventually you bringthose on yourself just by just
(11:08):
by foc by focus, you know, ifyou know, by transferring your
energy to the negative asopposed to transferring your
energy to the positive.
So I think that's kind ofinteresting.
That's the reason I was askingabout was there a faith element
in it?
So does the VA in in your youropinion uh what are they doing
(11:33):
about this?
Because I I I've got to believe,Devin, that the the the mental
challenges in the military arethere.
And you already had said thatthe hospital didn't really do
you a uh pardon the expression,a damn bit of good, that it was
a pamphlet that you read, right,that was the triggering moment
(11:56):
that started you to think aboutother choices.
So my I'm I'm curious about yourthoughts around the VA and and
what they're what they're doingnow because when you were in the
service, it was the it was thedifferent vibe with the military
in 1920 and up until the changein leadership in 24.
(12:20):
And I was just curious your yourthoughts around it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
Yeah.
Uh so I would say that when Iwent to the hospital in 2019, I
I wouldn't say, you know, thosepamphlets are the two things
that kind of activated for me,but I wouldn't say, you know,
the hospital trip was absolutelylike useless.
It's just that that is whathappened to do it for me.
Um, you know, so some peopleneed that counseling.
There are a lot of programs inthe army right now, especially.
(12:46):
We have briefs like a lot, andthen there's always services
offered and stuff like that.
And so they are a lot moreavailable.
The big issue for me back in2019, I was still a Cavalry
Scout, and Cavalry Scout stillfalls under like the combat MOS.
And so I kind of had thatmindset.
It's like, okay, if I ask forhelp, then I'm going to be seen
as weak.
(13:07):
When I went to that hospital andall the scouts saw me there,
they're like, hey, we had noidea any of this was going on.
And it actually, I think itchanged some of the scouts'
minds of like when I actuallywent there because no one was
expecting it.
But at the same time, you know,all those people who went to
come see me, they're like, theywere completely there in
support.
And so that was kind of one ofthe lies I was actually telling
(13:28):
myself to where I just kepttelling myself that I was alone,
that there's no one to supportme.
But when I actually admittedthat I needed help, you know,
there was people there.
And then, you know, I just gotout of the army about three
weeks ago.
It was like May 5th.
But even, you know, within aweek or two out of being
service, I had a call from theVA.
They're like, hey, do you wantto do any mental health
(13:49):
counselings?
And I've received that call liketwice already now.
So the service is definitely outthere.
It's just, you know, what helpsthe individual at that point.
SPEAKER_03 (13:57):
Right.
Yeah, but okay, so they arestepping up.
So that's encouraging.
I don't know that they did somuch in the past because when
when when I was in uh therewasn't a whole lot of, you know,
you mentioned, you know, aboutbeing weak.
There there wasn't a whole lotof of um people that really
(14:20):
cared or, you know, that youthey expect you to be strong,
period.
You know, the weakness part ofit, you could, you know, uh hide
somewhere, do whatever youwanted to do with it, but they
didn't want to hear it.
Right.
So I was just curious if they'veyou know, I know there'd been a
a big DEI push and a big all ofthis other kind of push on the
(14:43):
military up until 24 whenthings, you know, when Secretary
Hedson took over.
So I was curious about thechange, you know, if they were
taking things seriously aboutsome of the aspects of the
mental health in the military.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Yeah, I I would actually say to it's kind of
opposite now to where like ifleadership tries to call you
weak or they try to prevent youfrom going counseling, now
they're going to get separatedfor that reason.
So the army has been trying toget away from that for a long
time.
You know, however, you know,with 2024, 2025, you mentioned a
little bit, that they're kind ofgoing back to that old school
(15:20):
army feel.
And that's kind of what I kindof I ex I did start noticing
that trend right around when Iwas getting out.
SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So it is.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
I don't know.
I don't know as far as like ifanything's going to change, you
know, counseling-wise, but Iknow they're trying to go back
to like some of those older armyroutes.
When it act when it comes tolike physical training, that's
the big one they're trying toget into.
And then the army's coming upwith like a bunch of new systems
right now.
But that's all I know about it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
So counseling, how did how did you make the shift
to the to being a counselor?
I f I find that intriguingbecause a lot of people don't
have the empathy for it, don'thave the uh intuitive
components, you know, relativeto themselves or to be that
(16:11):
insightful and patient andempathetic as that you need to
be a counselor.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Yeah.
So one of the big things withbeing a career counselor, I kind
of have to go get a little bitin the background of the story.
So when I originally joined thearmy, I was going to be a
60-year Charlie, which was anurse.
Um, the reason I was in um thebasic training environment for
so long was that I went to umnursing school for about five
weeks.
I ended up dropping out becauseI couldn't keep up with the
(16:39):
classes.
They essentially throw threeyears of school into one.
Normal army tactic when it comesto the initial training, they're
trying to get you through asfast as they can, you know,
while they'll get their bang fortheir buck, and so that you
don't, you know, know nothingonce you get into the real army.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
I failed out of that and then I became a scout, which
had nothing to do with and itdidn't really go with anything I
was about as a person.
And so uh when I got out of thehospital, I'm like, okay, what
would make me happy?
I kind of like look back at that68 Charlie and say, okay, I
signed me, I signed up to helppeople.
So, and the type of counselorthat I ended up becoming was a
career counselor.
(17:14):
Um, so for no one who's been inthe army and they don't know the
terminology, so essentially wehelp the soldiers with their
careers.
And so we do like theircontracts, their reenlistments,
we help them PCS, do theirreclassification if they want to
try a new job, and we we assistthem throughout their careers
and stuff like that.
So it's not like a mental healthcounselor, but you do have to
have some empathy, you have tohave a lot of patience because
you do have to work with thesoldiers, and they're you know,
(17:36):
they're they're disgruntled aswell.
Um, so you kind of have to workthrough that, and you have to be
told no a lot of people like,hey, um, I know you're the
retention guy, I don't want tore-enlist.
Please don't talk to me.
Um, so there's quite a few ofthose conversations.
So you do have to be calm, youdo have to be empathetic.
But you know, it's kind of oneof those positions where it's
like I experienced the army forthe first five years of my
career doing a job I didn't wantto do.
(17:58):
So me being able to help peopletransition out of their job or
go to a base they want to go towas actually very useful for me.
And then on top of that, whatbecoming a career counselor did
for me, it I don't think it wasnecessarily becoming a career
counselor itself that changedme, but what it required me to
become.
So, like when I was filled withlike self-hatred, you know, I
hated the army at the time.
(18:19):
I had to become an advocate forthe army, so I had to change
that.
I didn't like people, and I wasa pessimistic person, and then
so I had to get used to talkingto people daily, the random
strangers who don't know me.
And then I also had to be, youknow, the optimistic person
because you know some of thesepeople are coming to me to
strong, and I kind of have to,you know, help them change their
mindset and stuff like that.
So it required me to become acompletely new person, which
(18:41):
helped me get out of that oldself-hatred mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (18:45):
Okay.
So l let's let's dive into alittle bit of the the whole term
that I started out with was thehope and hopelessness.
Because I don't think it to meit's the root cause of an awful
lot of things.
It you know, and we don't seemto want to address the root
(19:08):
cause, which is hope andhopelessness.
And and I was curious, you know,your book, Answering the Hard
Questions, obviously goes downthat road, right?
So maybe you could spend a fewminutes because I think raising
hope helps a lot of peoplebecause I think there's a lack
(19:29):
of it right now.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Yeah.
So answering the hard questions,um, so there is a subtitle of
the book as well that is Let ItBe at the end of the chapter,
not the end of the book.
And that's kind of you know, youknow, looking at your life and
then like turning to the nextpage, turning the chapter, and
you know, beginning a new life.
But what the original title ofit was going to be, I I ended up
initially changing it becausethe original title of that was
(19:53):
The Untold Consequences ofSuicide.
Uh and you know, that's stillthe overarching theme of the
actual book.
I just kind of made it a littlemore poetic and easier for
people to read, and they'relike, hey, yeah, that actually
sounds pretty good.
But what, you know, let it bethe end of the chapter, not the
end of the book means it's like,okay, well, look at me in 2019,
I was in the hospital.
Well, what if I didn't well,what if I didn't put myself in
(20:15):
the hospital?
What if I ended my life instead?
And I looked at it from thataspect and I'm like, okay, so I
lost hope, so therefore I tookit away from everyone else.
So by me writing this book, mecontinuing on with my life, I am
passing that hope on that Ifound in myself.
SPEAKER_03 (20:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's kind of thesense of it that I was getting
to was there there's not a lotof it.
And so that from that pointright there, I want to shift a
little bit to the church becauseI know the church probably had
an ever-increasing effect on onwho and what you are and where
(20:51):
you are today, right?
And so your thoughts on uh doyou think you know, people just
standing at the pulpit and andtalking about the verses in the
Bible and how you know Jesusdied on the cross for uh your
sins, so therefore you shouldhave you know all of this hope
(21:13):
and everything else.
And I I'm not really seeing itchange, Devin.
So I was curious about yourthoughts around that whole
thing, because to me, a certainamount of it is performative,
and I I don't think I don'tthink Christianity should be
performative, you know.
(21:34):
It so your thoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
Yeah, uh so this is actually a new experience I can
talk about because uh so I guessto give people background on the
story is you know, minus all ofmy stories, the other thing I
started to do in this book wasthe contemplation of God again
in my life.
And it was kind of almostinevitable when I started to
tell my story that I had to kindof include them in the story,
and I had to come up with areasoning of like, well, why am
I suffering?
(21:57):
Well, then I kind of you knowlooked at the story of.
Job, I didn't and at this pointI didn't read the Bible, but one
of the conclusions I came intowas like, well, what if God
threw me in the darkness so thatI could tell a story of hope
later on?
And that was really whatreconciled me to bring me back
to the faith.
And I also looked at it is thatwhen I was younger and I went to
the church, I don't think anyonesat me down and told me who
(22:18):
Jesus was.
I learned this when I was on theappointment when I was writing
the book that people believedthat Jesus was God.
And I'm like, okay, that changesmy entire perspective of what I
know about Jesus because thatmeans God humbled himself, came
down in human form, lived asinless life, and then said, I'm
going to die for you.
And so that was that was theother concept that really
brought me back to the faith.
(22:38):
It's like, okay, if the god ifmy God is going to die for me,
then I should also be able todie for him.
Now, I said, so I guess to catchit back up to the church and
everything like that, I was veryhesitant to going back to the
church based on kind of mybackground to where I was very
anti-religious and I had a lotof resentment built up for the
church.
(22:59):
So I read the entire Biblebefore I went back to church.
Um, and I and I'm including thisbecause I'm I'm writing another
book to where I'm I'm prettymuch recording, um about a
hundred pages into where I'mrecording my experience of going
back to the church, reading theBible, and then reconciling all
my thoughts that I had in thisfirst book.
So it literally starts where thelast book left off.
(23:20):
So and it's called uh Answeringthe Call Call, a continuation of
faith and questioning.
So book one is not over, it'sit's just going to continue
right with this next one.
And that's kind of what I'vebeen doing for about the last
six months while I was waitingto you know get out of the army.
And I originally startedactually going to a Baptist
church and I went there forabout four weeks, but the issue
(23:43):
I had with the Baptist church isthat they were rough on the
teaching and they kept everyother week they're like pointing
and calling peoplenon-Christians and not true
believers, and that really brokemy faith because I was already
struggling, I was alreadystruggling to come back to the
faith.
I was struggling with likelearning everything, and then so
when they kind of like pointedat me, and they didn't point at
me per se, but I was the one Ifelt I was feeling it on a
(24:05):
personal level, and I'm like,okay, I will show you what a not
a Christian is.
And I started and I almost fellfrom the faith completely, but
then I kind of had to remember,I'm like, okay, if I abandon my
faith right now, then I'm I'mabandoning the entire premise of
my first book, and then youknow, so that was one of the
things that kept me going, islike if I lose hope, then you
know, I'm going to end thechapter of my book or whatever
(24:26):
it is that I, you know, I saidon the previous, and then I'm
going to essentially ruin mybook because one of the things I
I say in the book is that I'mlooking for truth, and you know,
I found that in my faith.
And then so I ended up going toa Catholic church a little bit
after that.
I'm I'm still interested, I'mstill interested in Catholicism,
but I I haven't reconciled allthe dogmas and their beliefs
yet.
(24:47):
And then I ended up going to anAnglican church.
Um, I'm still going to thatAnglican church.
I've been going there for acouple months now.
I've been participating in alltheir groups, but essentially
it's a it's more of a reformslash traditional church to
where it's like there's notreally a sermon, but it's it's
you know, it's very umtraditional in the sense that
everything we do has beencarried on for like hundreds and
(25:09):
hundreds of years to where it'salmost like that reflection of
the Catholic faith.
And so it's not like he'sgetting up on the sermon and
he's talking directly at us, butwe we are all there together as
one rather than you know just aone-hour sermon of you know the
preacher talking to you.
SPEAKER_03 (25:26):
Right.
Or yeah, talking down to you, orhowever you wanna you you you
wanna view it.
You know, that's interestingbecause currently I'm reading a
book by Henry Scogel, which wasthe the was one of the books
that George Whitfield read.
And I don't know if you've seenthe movie Awakening, The
(25:46):
Awakening, but it it's an a it'san incredible book, and so I
would highly recommend it.
So what do you think the churchI I would imagine I would
imagine that in your spiral,your downward spiral early on,
that you know, you probably hada pretty good glimpse of what
(26:09):
hell looked like.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Yeah, you know.
So um I ironically, you know,there's a ch uh section in my
book where I call it a glimpseinto hell, and I'm like, the way
if you know that you're on theroad to hell, then you also know
that there's a heaven.
And so that's when I kind oflike started looking at it, and
that's when I was then thatchapter introduces like I
(26:32):
actually go into depth of eachtime I got blackmailed, and I
talk about each situation, eachone getting more explicit, each
one getting more vicious.
And you know, I I compared thatto a small glimpse of hell to
where it's like this was veryminor to what it could have been
and where and then the level itcould have got to.
SPEAKER_02 (26:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
And then but the other part was that you know,
because of my early churchrebellion and I was atheist, and
you could argue antichrist aswell, that what was going on in
my head at that time wasactually very hellish images.
And to this day, I still uh youknow, I was into horror movies
for a long time, which made mymind very dark, and to where,
(27:08):
you know, I still have a I stillhave horror movie tattoos, you
know, from my stomach all theway up to my chest, one of them
being a Hellraiser tattoo, um,which is a fictional hell priest
that would drag people to helland then torture them for
eternity.
And so, you know, that wouldthat would tell you like some of
the dark images that were likein my mind, and that wasn't you
know helping my journey at all.
And because I picked up horrormovies probably when I was like
(27:30):
12, 13 years old, so I pickedthem up pretty early, and you
know, getting into like heaviermusic and stuff like that.
Um, so I I was down a very likedark and heavy path way before
then, and then you know, kind ofwhen I start stopped, started
putting all these things off tothe side and started becoming
more optimistic, that's youknow, where I found that faith.
(27:51):
And I'm like, because when I in2026, when I officially like,
okay, I'm doing this thing, youknow, I I gave up the horror
movies, I started getting rid ofmy music.
I had like tarot cards, I wasinto tarot for three years.
I recorded that in the book.
I almost took it out because Iwas at the point to write this
right at the bottom.
I'm like, oh my, if I keep thisin the book, I might be getting
myself in a lot of trouble.
(28:12):
But then I kind of settledmyself down.
I'm like, hey, this is part ofthe story.
Maybe I can use this to helpsomeone else that's going down
the tarot realm and how I gotaway from it.
And you know, this is one of thethings I reconcile in some of
this new writing I'm doing aswell.
And so I don't I don't try to goaway from my story, and in fact,
I'll I get very explicit and Iwill be brutally honest with
(28:32):
myself.
I'm like, yeah, I did all thesethings, but it's so that I can
have the conversation withanyone else who is going through
those things, and that they knowmy stories are real, and that's
and that's what I say when I'mwhen I talk about my blackmail,
I get very explicit in details,and it makes people very
uncomfortable, but it's likethere's not a conversation I
couldn't have with the personthat would make me uncomfortable
(28:53):
at this point.
SPEAKER_03 (28:54):
Right.
Yeah, well, there's a there's aa great deal to be said for the
authenticity of all of that,right?
And and that's I think peopletend to fall short because they
uh they don't want to be thathonest with themselves.
And I think that's you know,that's probably a stumbling
block.
Let me shift gears just a littlebit, Devin, on society as a
(29:16):
whole.
What are your thoughts around umsocial media and what it's doing
to drive uh uh hope out of theenvironment?
Because to me, social media isgoing a long way to isolating
people, doing a lot of badthings, right?
(29:37):
And I was just curious yourthoughts based on your
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
Yeah.
Um, so going back to gettingblackmailed and everything like
that is because I was addictedto like dating websites, and
that is part of you know thesocial media and and um digital
realm.
The problem with the digitalrealm and social media in
general is that 90% of it isfake and we don't know who is
authentic anymore.
And so the social media realm islike making a lot of people
(30:02):
famous who shouldn't be famous,or it's made people teachers who
shouldn't be teachers andeverything like that.
And the problem I found, evenyou know, back to this
Christianity conversation on thechurches and everything like
that, is like if I get on socialmedia, there's so many
denominations of Christianitythat all we're doing is arguing
with each other, and it's veryhard to actually see the truth
(30:23):
in it when everyone's like, Oh,you're going to hell, you're
going to hell, you're going tohell, you're not a real
Christian, you're anon-believer.
And so it's very difficult.
And when I'm and that's kind ofwhy I I limit myself on I try to
limit myself on social media andwhat I'm watching, and that's
kind of why I ended up in theAnglican church right now, is
that because I saw you knowtruth in like Catholicism, I saw
(30:45):
truth in the Protestants aswell.
And so now I'm just, you know,continuing on that journey.
But I think the digital realm isvery dangerous because it is
fake and most of it's not real.
The problem with it is that westill get the gratification from
the fakeness.
And you know, I saw this withthe dating websites, and I saw
this.
I used to be a heavily uh heavygamer, and occasionally I still
(31:07):
get on gaming now, but I I usedto be a gamer to where like
that's all I was doing on myspare time, and it was giving me
satisfaction, but the problemwith it was that I was losing
out on my actual life and Iwasn't getting actual life
experience, and I think thatended up adding to the dating
realm experience to where Iwasn't getting any matches or
anything like that because Idon't know how to hold a
conversation at this point, andso it it took away from my
(31:31):
social media, the digital worldtakes away from your actual
life, and it makes it very hardto come back from.
And I think our entire societyis kind of running into that to
where it's like we don't knowwhat to do anymore because we're
so reliant on technology aswell.
SPEAKER_03 (31:46):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it's the the the current
state of the family is sufferinggreatly from it.
You know, all you have to do islook around and you you almost
have to pry somebody's deadfingers off their cell phone
because they're they're texting,they're doing this, they're
(32:07):
doing that, and uh there is nothere is no real interaction
with people anymore.
And and and I think it's it'sbecoming worse.
Uh, you know, uh, I think somecountries now are are banning
children up to, I believe therewas one country 16 before they,
but I don't know how they'regonna enforce something like
(32:28):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
I think I was gonna say, um, I know you said it's
getting worse, and I I wouldagree with that because I know I
I I hope I I'm glad I never gotinto this, but I know it's
getting to the point to whereit's like a people are thinking
they have like AI girlfriends towhere like they think they're
dating AI, and I'm like, that isterrible.
I'm like, this is worse, this isarguably worse than a real
(32:51):
person, to where they'recreating a literal fake
girlfriend and think this is aconnection.
And people are selling thisright now, and it's getting more
and more popular.
And I I think that's going to bean even more dangerous realm
than what I fall myself into,where I was getting stuck with
real fake people.
I I think AI would be even moredangerous.
SPEAKER_03 (33:08):
Yep, I agree with you completely.
So, where where can people afind your book, B, find your
social media points so that theycan, if they're in any of these
spaces that we've talked about,can start to find, you know,
some some kind of uh piece or oravenue to where they can a buy
(33:29):
your book and start to get achange in direction of their
life or or you know thecounseling or whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Yeah.
So to find the book itself, uhwe'll start there.
They can find it pretty muchanywhere online.
I don't know if it's anyphysical stores yet.
I haven't been notified or theyhaven't asked me, but I've seen
it on like Barnes and Nobleonline, I've seen it like on
some other real retailersonline.
Yeah, it's on Amazon.
Um ebook, it's on paperback,it's on hardcover.
The only thing it's not in isAudible right now, just because
(33:59):
I have to see if there's amarket before you know I get
further in there because itcosts like$7,000 to do the
audible recording and everythinglike that.
But it they can also get it likeon ebook, they can get on
Kindle, Codobo.
So they could pretty much get iton all the websites.
When it comes to me, they canfind me on Facebook right now.
I'm not doing too much socialmedia, but they could always hit
me up there if they have anyquestions on the book or if they
(34:21):
have any personal questions.
And then last week I alsostarted a YouTube channel.
Um, so that's been uh somethingnew I introduced.
And the channel is calledAnswering the Hard Questions
because I I noticed no one tookthe title yet.
Very surprising.
I was on a podcast a coupleweeks ago.
They're like, ooh, answering thehard questions, that would be a
good podcast name.
And so I typed it in YouTube.
I'm like, oh, no one has it yet.
(34:41):
Let me take the and then Ialready, you know, I already
made a book about it, so I guessI kind of have it copyrighted as
well if they want to come forme.
Yeah.
But if they type up that, I'vejust I've been doing I've been
trying to do like a video everyday.
Sometimes they're like fiveminutes, sometimes they're like
30 minutes.
Like when I was telling myactual story, the long version,
it was two 30-minute videos, andI just did my testimony last
(35:04):
week, and that was like another30-minute video.
So well, anytime I talk about mystory, it's it's very long.
And then some of the smallerstuff I'm doing is like
reflecting on my book, plus uhworking with some of the new
stuff that I'm writing and youknow throwing it out there for
the uh anyone who wants tolisten.
SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
All right.
Well, listen, I it's been anabsolute honor and a pleasure to
have you on, and uh I can't waitto talk to you when your new
book comes out.
I think that'll be that'll be alot of fun.
And if you don't mind, I wouldlike to take a moment and offer
a quote from the Bible, and thisis from Ephesians 6.12.
It says, For we do not wrestleagainst flesh and blood, but
(35:43):
against the rulers, against theauthorities, against the cosmic
powers over this presentdarkness, against the spiritual
forces of evil in heavenlyplaces.
So again, I would like to thankyou so much, Devin, for coming
on and spending your time.
And uh, I know the audience hasgot a great deal of information
(36:06):
from you.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Thanks you for having me.
I was gonna say, I know youquoted some scripture, and I was
gonna say to the quote that Iactually wrote a quote in the
book that actually led me toscripture and what made me
believe in scripture, which wasI I said, in truth you will find
redemption.
And then I found the line lineuh John 3 21, which is really
what brought me back to thefaith, and I'm like, okay.
(36:29):
And the line was I I can't, Ialways forget this line, even
though it's my favorite line.
But essentially it is for thosewho walk in truth will find the
light, and it will be clearlyseen that their deeds have come
from God.
Well, God bless what brought meback to the faith.
SPEAKER_03 (36:43):
God bless you, my friend, and I wish you well, and
I hope to talk to you soon.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Thank you for listening.
If you would like to listen tomore Clarity from Chaos shows on
demand, go to Clarityfruit ChaosPodcast.budsprout.com or send
Dave an email at info atClarityFruitChaos.com for
information on previous shows.
You can also visit this show onApple Podcasts, Spotify,
(37:10):
Twitter, or Google Podcasts.
Until next time, pleaseremember: it's not about
Wikipedia.
It's about be well, everyone.
Live from the Clarity from Chaos Studios,
heard worldwide, it's DaveCampbell.
On every episode, Dave and hisguests explore, discuss, and
work on solutions to some oflife's biggest challenges.
So if you're ready, be preparedto be enlightened, amused, and
even shocked by what you hear.
(00:32):
And now, the real, theauthentic, the one and only Dave
Campbell.
SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
Hi, I'm Dave Campbell, and you are listening
to Clarity from Chaos.
This is somewhere where we tryvery hard to unwrap the nonsense
that you hear from corporatemedia on a daily basis.
And I want to thank you formaking us part of your day.
On this edition of Clarity,we're going to be discussing a
term that society hasconveniently avoided, and that
(01:02):
term is hope.
In my opinion, it's the rootcause of a very wide variety of
issues in our society today, andour guest on this episode is the
experience of the loss of hopeand all of its evil, numerous
outcomes.
Growing up in a household shapedby his parents' struggles with
drug and alcohol addiction, hewas removed from any kind of
(01:25):
safety, moving frequently,relying on food stamps just to
get by.
Bullied at school, combined withthe environment at home, he
stopped caring for life.
After the loss of his mother,his mental health began to
spiral down.
An overwhelming sense ofhopelessness caused him to
self-admit to a hospital.
(01:47):
From there, he began his longjourney of courage,
perseverance, and healing thatultimately brought him to where
he is today.
I am incredibly pleased towelcome the author of the
best-selling book Answering theHard Questions, Mr.
Devin Fish.
Devin joined the Army and servednearly 10 years as a Cavalry
(02:09):
Scout and later a careercounselor.
In 2021, he was awarded thefirst CAV Division Retention NCO
of the Year Award.
While he was stationed inKuwait, Devin wrote Answering
the Hard Questions.
He has channeled the lessons hehas learned into that book and
(02:30):
into inspiration for others.
Welcome to the show, Devin.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, thank you for having me.
And of course, you know, thankfor letting me be a part of the
conversation and thank you forthe great introduction.
SPEAKER_03 (02:42):
Oh no, no, no.
You're welcome.
You're very welcome.
So, as painful as is, and I hateto ask this question, could you
kind of give people a somewhatof a background that brought you
to the book and everything, youknow, your past experiences and
stuff like that that you drew onlater after your recovery that
(03:04):
that helped, you know, write thebook, the experiences?
SPEAKER_00 (03:09):
Yeah.
Uh so I can get a pretty briefbackground because sometimes
it'll take me like an hour and ahalf to give like the full
story.
But I'm sure, you know, probablydon't have like two, three hours
to actually sit down and get allthe questions.
SPEAKER_03 (03:21):
Yeah.
No, whatever, whatever you feelis necessary.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
Yeah.
So I come from a town calledRockford, Illinois.
So I grew up, I was born andraised there for the first 18
years of my life.
During that time, I know, likeyou said in the introduction, it
was pretty ins instable.
Um, so I moved about 16 timesbefore I was 18.
Um, I recounted it when I madethe book, and it's around like
30, and I'm 28 years old now.
So I've moved more than theyears I've been a lot.
(03:48):
From there, I also grew up inpoverty.
Like you said, you covered itwith the food stamps.
I also went to like sevendifferent schools.
I've lived in like houses,apartments, trailers, farms, all
the way down to like a motel.
Living conditions weren't alwaysgreat.
So um sometimes we didn't haveACs, sometimes we didn't have
hot water, sometimes we didn'teven have a toilet for a while.
And then I've also lived withlike my mother and my father,
(04:08):
two different aunts, friends offamily, and I've also lived with
grandparents.
So I lived a little bit ofeverything, and that was you
know, before getting thrown intothe army.
And then that didn't really stopbecause you know, there's also
stuff happening on with myparents.
So, like you said, you know,drug and alcohol addictions.
So, like right before I left thearmy, I saw my father in the
(04:29):
hospital, and what happened isthat he resisted arrest after
having fireball whiskey andcocaine in his system and
essentially destroyed ourapartment.
I then went to basic trainingimmediately after that, so about
a month, and then I was in thebasic training environment for
about a year straight.
I went to three different basictrainings due to you know going
back and forth.
I failed out of one, and then Ihad to pass basic training two
(04:51):
more times after that.
Just kind of got unlucky there.
2019 comes around, so I washeading to my first unit, and
then unexpectedly out ofnowhere, my mother dies.
That one did have a little bitof a toll on me, but at the time
it was happening, I wouldn't saythat's what led to me to the
hospital, but these are all kindof like events that were
happening, you know, within oneyear of each other, so it kept
adding up.
Um, and what really sent me tothe hospital was in 2019 I got
(05:14):
to the point where I was pastlike not caring for life, and I
entered like the self-hatredstage of my life to where I'm
like, maybe it's just me, maybeI'm the blame for all this.
And so I kind of put that burdenon my shoulders, which you know
wasn't the right answer at thetime.
And I got myself into situationsto where I started getting into
the dating realm.
Um, I didn't really find anygenuine people though.
(05:35):
I was, you know, because I wasfilled with self-hatred, I was
kind of like looking for love,but because I couldn't find it
myself, I was looking forothers, I never found it.
So 2019 comes around.
Um, I'm not getting any matches.
The only people I'm finding arelike people who are scamming me,
catfishing, and everything likethat.
And so throughout the year, Igot blackmailed at least several
different times.
They cleared out my bank accountmore than once.
(05:57):
And the reason for this was thatI didn't care at this point
because even when I knew, even Igot very good at detecting when
I was going to get blackmailedor when they're going to ask for
something based on what they'reasking for.
And it got to the point wherelike, I'm I don't care, I'll
just give them the money, I'llgive them the photos, I'll do
whatever they want at thispoint.
And then the real breaking pointwas at the end of it in 2019, I
(06:19):
got myself caught up in theworst scam you could possibly
get yourself into, which is thedating scam, or not the dating
scam, it's the age scam.
So you start a conversation,they swapped their ages.
By this time, I black I've beenblackmailed six other times, so
I'm like, I don't care at thispoint, even though you know I
had that six feeling in mystomach.
Sent them the photos, anyways,gave them everything they
wanted.
Next day they blackmailed me.
(06:40):
And then it was from that pointto where I kind of realized what
I just got myself into, and itwas the realization, well, what
if this was a real person, orwhat if it is a real person?
And so for the next month, I'dsay I was considering heavily
taking my life day by day, andthe only reason I didn't do it
was that they didn't theydecided not to leak anything,
and I just kept paying themoney.
And so that, you know, that kindof gives people like a brief
(07:03):
background of everything I kindof went through.
SPEAKER_03 (07:06):
Wow, it sounds like you know, I could I can
certainly understand at thatpoint that everything continued
to pile up and pile up and pileup, and you just couldn't, you
know, you couldn't see the thesurface of the water above you
anymore, right?
You were just getting deeper anddeeper and deeper.
(07:27):
Well now you were in the army atthis point, right?
Still, right?
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
Yes.
So I was so at the time ofgetting blackmailed and I
submitted myself to hospital, Iwas probably a brand I was a
brand new NCO just like a couplemonths into it.
Um so there's not only you knowmy family stuff going on and
like the death of my mother, thefather, going to training for
like a year straight, butthere's also the fact that I
have people under me that arelooking for me for guidance, and
(07:53):
you know, so there's also thatstuff going on in the background
as well.
SPEAKER_03 (07:57):
Right, right.
So at what point did you did youthe counseling that you got in
the hospital were was there somespecific trigger Devin that that
just kind of started to unlockit?
Or um was it was it a religiousmoment?
(08:19):
I mean, there I I would thinkthere was some moment where you
you looked at it and and all ofthese bad choices, and then you
went, enough of the bad choices,we're gonna start making other
choices, right?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
What so was that transition, Devin?
SPEAKER_00 (08:38):
What it was is in the hospital, so the counseling
itself never really helped meout too much.
It kind of gave me a little bitof direction when I got out of
the hospital because I had to domandatory counseling.
Um, so I'll probably get intothat one a little bit.
But what really changed me was Iread two little pamphlets in the
hospital.
So it wasn't even you know thehospital itself.
It was, you know, just these twolittle pamphlets.
(08:58):
And the first one said thatthere are a lot of suicidal
people who don't want to endtheir life.
And I thought about that.
I was like, I don't really wantto end my life, and that's kind
of why I sent myself to thehospital.
And answering the hardquestions, that's where the name
of the book spawned.
Because before I went to thehospital, I asked myself, I'm
like, do you want to die?
And luckily the answer I came upwith was no, because I was like,
I I would like to live before Idie, because I look back on my
(09:19):
life and I'm like, this isn'tlife, you know, this is just
suffering.
And so I kind of had to makethat decision before I went to
the hospital, and before I'mlike, okay, let me try to get
help.
And then the second one, whichreally changed my perspective on
life, was um that you can have aperfectly healthy mind, but if
you believe you are depressed,then your brain will slowly make
you depressed.
So I saw that and I'm like,okay, I know I messed up in the
(09:42):
head, I know I'm depressed, Iknow I hate myself.
I knew that very clearly, and soI was like, I I took that
statement, I reversed it.
So I'm like, okay, if I if Ihate myself, but I believe I'm
happy, maybe I can be happyagain.
And I I really I pursued thatfor a lot.
And then I know you asked alittle about if there was any
faith in it.
At this time, I was still prettyheavily anti-religious, and then
(10:05):
when I wrote the book, that'swhere faith kind of came full
circle to me.
So it this was in 2019, so Ijust came to Christianity in
2026.
So that was that was a bigstruggle.
But I I did notice thecorrelation that the more
optimistic I came, the morefaith I started to develop, and
that eventually led me back tothe faith.
SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
You know, it it's kind of funny, and it as a side
as a side note, Devin, I I weara wristband that basically is
Philippians, Philippians 4, 8,which is basically what you
think uh is is the mostimportant thing.
So you need to concentrate onhonesty, purity, the good things
(10:46):
out there.
If you if you maintain those inthe front of in the front of
your mind, uh that's whereyou're going to be.
And and and to your point, ifyou're on the other side of the
hill and all you think about arethe uh the ugly, ugly twists of
the world, eventually you bringthose on yourself just by just
(11:08):
by foc by focus, you know, ifyou know, by transferring your
energy to the negative asopposed to transferring your
energy to the positive.
So I think that's kind ofinteresting.
That's the reason I was askingabout was there a faith element
in it?
So does the VA in in your youropinion uh what are they doing
(11:33):
about this?
Because I I I've got to believe,Devin, that the the the mental
challenges in the military arethere.
And you already had said thatthe hospital didn't really do
you a uh pardon the expression,a damn bit of good, that it was
a pamphlet that you read, right,that was the triggering moment
(11:56):
that started you to think aboutother choices.
So my I'm I'm curious about yourthoughts around the VA and and
what they're what they're doingnow because when you were in the
service, it was the it was thedifferent vibe with the military
in 1920 and up until the changein leadership in 24.
(12:20):
And I was just curious your yourthoughts around it.
SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
Yeah.
Uh so I would say that when Iwent to the hospital in 2019, I
I wouldn't say, you know, thosepamphlets are the two things
that kind of activated for me,but I wouldn't say, you know,
the hospital trip was absolutelylike useless.
It's just that that is whathappened to do it for me.
Um, you know, so some peopleneed that counseling.
There are a lot of programs inthe army right now, especially.
(12:46):
We have briefs like a lot, andthen there's always services
offered and stuff like that.
And so they are a lot moreavailable.
The big issue for me back in2019, I was still a Cavalry
Scout, and Cavalry Scout stillfalls under like the combat MOS.
And so I kind of had thatmindset.
It's like, okay, if I ask forhelp, then I'm going to be seen
as weak.
(13:07):
When I went to that hospital andall the scouts saw me there,
they're like, hey, we had noidea any of this was going on.
And it actually, I think itchanged some of the scouts'
minds of like when I actuallywent there because no one was
expecting it.
But at the same time, you know,all those people who went to
come see me, they're like, theywere completely there in
support.
And so that was kind of one ofthe lies I was actually telling
(13:28):
myself to where I just kepttelling myself that I was alone,
that there's no one to supportme.
But when I actually admittedthat I needed help, you know,
there was people there.
And then, you know, I just gotout of the army about three
weeks ago.
It was like May 5th.
But even, you know, within aweek or two out of being
service, I had a call from theVA.
They're like, hey, do you wantto do any mental health
(13:49):
counselings?
And I've received that call liketwice already now.
So the service is definitely outthere.
It's just, you know, what helpsthe individual at that point.
SPEAKER_03 (13:57):
Right.
Yeah, but okay, so they arestepping up.
So that's encouraging.
I don't know that they did somuch in the past because when
when when I was in uh therewasn't a whole lot of, you know,
you mentioned, you know, aboutbeing weak.
There there wasn't a whole lotof of um people that really
(14:20):
cared or, you know, that youthey expect you to be strong,
period.
You know, the weakness part ofit, you could, you know, uh hide
somewhere, do whatever youwanted to do with it, but they
didn't want to hear it.
Right.
So I was just curious if they'veyou know, I know there'd been a
a big DEI push and a big all ofthis other kind of push on the
(14:43):
military up until 24 whenthings, you know, when Secretary
Hedson took over.
So I was curious about thechange, you know, if they were
taking things seriously aboutsome of the aspects of the
mental health in the military.
SPEAKER_00 (14:59):
Yeah, I I would actually say to it's kind of
opposite now to where like ifleadership tries to call you
weak or they try to prevent youfrom going counseling, now
they're going to get separatedfor that reason.
So the army has been trying toget away from that for a long
time.
You know, however, you know,with 2024, 2025, you mentioned a
little bit, that they're kind ofgoing back to that old school
(15:20):
army feel.
And that's kind of what I kindof I ex I did start noticing
that trend right around when Iwas getting out.
SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
Oh, okay.
Okay.
So it is.
SPEAKER_00 (15:29):
I don't know.
I don't know as far as like ifanything's going to change, you
know, counseling-wise, but Iknow they're trying to go back
to like some of those older armyroutes.
When it act when it comes tolike physical training, that's
the big one they're trying toget into.
And then the army's coming upwith like a bunch of new systems
right now.
But that's all I know about it.
SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
So counseling, how did how did you make the shift
to the to being a counselor?
I f I find that intriguingbecause a lot of people don't
have the empathy for it, don'thave the uh intuitive
components, you know, relativeto themselves or to be that
(16:11):
insightful and patient andempathetic as that you need to
be a counselor.
SPEAKER_00 (16:18):
Yeah.
So one of the big things withbeing a career counselor, I kind
of have to go get a little bitin the background of the story.
So when I originally joined thearmy, I was going to be a
60-year Charlie, which was anurse.
Um, the reason I was in um thebasic training environment for
so long was that I went to umnursing school for about five
weeks.
I ended up dropping out becauseI couldn't keep up with the
(16:39):
classes.
They essentially throw threeyears of school into one.
Normal army tactic when it comesto the initial training, they're
trying to get you through asfast as they can, you know,
while they'll get their bang fortheir buck, and so that you
don't, you know, know nothingonce you get into the real army.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (16:53):
I failed out of that and then I became a scout, which
had nothing to do with and itdidn't really go with anything I
was about as a person.
And so uh when I got out of thehospital, I'm like, okay, what
would make me happy?
I kind of like look back at that68 Charlie and say, okay, I
signed me, I signed up to helppeople.
So, and the type of counselorthat I ended up becoming was a
career counselor.
(17:14):
Um, so for no one who's been inthe army and they don't know the
terminology, so essentially wehelp the soldiers with their
careers.
And so we do like theircontracts, their reenlistments,
we help them PCS, do theirreclassification if they want to
try a new job, and we we assistthem throughout their careers
and stuff like that.
So it's not like a mental healthcounselor, but you do have to
have some empathy, you have tohave a lot of patience because
you do have to work with thesoldiers, and they're you know,
(17:36):
they're they're disgruntled aswell.
Um, so you kind of have to workthrough that, and you have to be
told no a lot of people like,hey, um, I know you're the
retention guy, I don't want tore-enlist.
Please don't talk to me.
Um, so there's quite a few ofthose conversations.
So you do have to be calm, youdo have to be empathetic.
But you know, it's kind of oneof those positions where it's
like I experienced the army forthe first five years of my
career doing a job I didn't wantto do.
(17:58):
So me being able to help peopletransition out of their job or
go to a base they want to go towas actually very useful for me.
And then on top of that, whatbecoming a career counselor did
for me, it I don't think it wasnecessarily becoming a career
counselor itself that changedme, but what it required me to
become.
So, like when I was filled withlike self-hatred, you know, I
hated the army at the time.
(18:19):
I had to become an advocate forthe army, so I had to change
that.
I didn't like people, and I wasa pessimistic person, and then
so I had to get used to talkingto people daily, the random
strangers who don't know me.
And then I also had to be, youknow, the optimistic person
because you know some of thesepeople are coming to me to
strong, and I kind of have to,you know, help them change their
mindset and stuff like that.
So it required me to become acompletely new person, which
(18:41):
helped me get out of that oldself-hatred mindset.
SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (18:45):
Okay.
So l let's let's dive into alittle bit of the the whole term
that I started out with was thehope and hopelessness.
Because I don't think it to meit's the root cause of an awful
lot of things.
It you know, and we don't seemto want to address the root
(19:08):
cause, which is hope andhopelessness.
And and I was curious, you know,your book, Answering the Hard
Questions, obviously goes downthat road, right?
So maybe you could spend a fewminutes because I think raising
hope helps a lot of peoplebecause I think there's a lack
(19:29):
of it right now.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
Yeah.
So answering the hard questions,um, so there is a subtitle of
the book as well that is Let ItBe at the end of the chapter,
not the end of the book.
And that's kind of you know, youknow, looking at your life and
then like turning to the nextpage, turning the chapter, and
you know, beginning a new life.
But what the original title ofit was going to be, I I ended up
initially changing it becausethe original title of that was
(19:53):
The Untold Consequences ofSuicide.
Uh and you know, that's stillthe overarching theme of the
actual book.
I just kind of made it a littlemore poetic and easier for
people to read, and they'relike, hey, yeah, that actually
sounds pretty good.
But what, you know, let it bethe end of the chapter, not the
end of the book means it's like,okay, well, look at me in 2019,
I was in the hospital.
Well, what if I didn't well,what if I didn't put myself in
(20:15):
the hospital?
What if I ended my life instead?
And I looked at it from thataspect and I'm like, okay, so I
lost hope, so therefore I tookit away from everyone else.
So by me writing this book, mecontinuing on with my life, I am
passing that hope on that Ifound in myself.
SPEAKER_03 (20:29):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's that's kind of thesense of it that I was getting
to was there there's not a lotof it.
And so that from that pointright there, I want to shift a
little bit to the church becauseI know the church probably had
an ever-increasing effect on onwho and what you are and where
(20:51):
you are today, right?
And so your thoughts on uh doyou think you know, people just
standing at the pulpit and andtalking about the verses in the
Bible and how you know Jesusdied on the cross for uh your
sins, so therefore you shouldhave you know all of this hope
(21:13):
and everything else.
And I I'm not really seeing itchange, Devin.
So I was curious about yourthoughts around that whole
thing, because to me, a certainamount of it is performative,
and I I don't think I don'tthink Christianity should be
performative, you know.
(21:34):
It so your thoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (21:37):
Yeah, uh so this is actually a new experience I can
talk about because uh so I guessto give people background on the
story is you know, minus all ofmy stories, the other thing I
started to do in this book wasthe contemplation of God again
in my life.
And it was kind of almostinevitable when I started to
tell my story that I had to kindof include them in the story,
and I had to come up with areasoning of like, well, why am
I suffering?
(21:57):
Well, then I kind of you knowlooked at the story of.
Job, I didn't and at this pointI didn't read the Bible, but one
of the conclusions I came intowas like, well, what if God
threw me in the darkness so thatI could tell a story of hope
later on?
And that was really whatreconciled me to bring me back
to the faith.
And I also looked at it is thatwhen I was younger and I went to
the church, I don't think anyonesat me down and told me who
(22:18):
Jesus was.
I learned this when I was on theappointment when I was writing
the book that people believedthat Jesus was God.
And I'm like, okay, that changesmy entire perspective of what I
know about Jesus because thatmeans God humbled himself, came
down in human form, lived asinless life, and then said, I'm
going to die for you.
And so that was that was theother concept that really
brought me back to the faith.
(22:38):
It's like, okay, if the god ifmy God is going to die for me,
then I should also be able todie for him.
Now, I said, so I guess to catchit back up to the church and
everything like that, I was veryhesitant to going back to the
church based on kind of mybackground to where I was very
anti-religious and I had a lotof resentment built up for the
church.
(22:59):
So I read the entire Biblebefore I went back to church.
Um, and I and I'm including thisbecause I'm I'm writing another
book to where I'm I'm prettymuch recording, um about a
hundred pages into where I'mrecording my experience of going
back to the church, reading theBible, and then reconciling all
my thoughts that I had in thisfirst book.
So it literally starts where thelast book left off.
(23:20):
So and it's called uh Answeringthe Call Call, a continuation of
faith and questioning.
So book one is not over, it'sit's just going to continue
right with this next one.
And that's kind of what I'vebeen doing for about the last
six months while I was waitingto you know get out of the army.
And I originally startedactually going to a Baptist
church and I went there forabout four weeks, but the issue
(23:43):
I had with the Baptist church isthat they were rough on the
teaching and they kept everyother week they're like pointing
and calling peoplenon-Christians and not true
believers, and that really brokemy faith because I was already
struggling, I was alreadystruggling to come back to the
faith.
I was struggling with likelearning everything, and then so
when they kind of like pointedat me, and they didn't point at
me per se, but I was the one Ifelt I was feeling it on a
(24:05):
personal level, and I'm like,okay, I will show you what a not
a Christian is.
And I started and I almost fellfrom the faith completely, but
then I kind of had to remember,I'm like, okay, if I abandon my
faith right now, then I'm I'mabandoning the entire premise of
my first book, and then youknow, so that was one of the
things that kept me going, islike if I lose hope, then you
know, I'm going to end thechapter of my book or whatever
(24:26):
it is that I, you know, I saidon the previous, and then I'm
going to essentially ruin mybook because one of the things I
I say in the book is that I'mlooking for truth, and you know,
I found that in my faith.
And then so I ended up going toa Catholic church a little bit
after that.
I'm I'm still interested, I'mstill interested in Catholicism,
but I I haven't reconciled allthe dogmas and their beliefs
yet.
(24:47):
And then I ended up going to anAnglican church.
Um, I'm still going to thatAnglican church.
I've been going there for acouple months now.
I've been participating in alltheir groups, but essentially
it's a it's more of a reformslash traditional church to
where it's like there's notreally a sermon, but it's it's
you know, it's very umtraditional in the sense that
everything we do has beencarried on for like hundreds and
(25:09):
hundreds of years to where it'salmost like that reflection of
the Catholic faith.
And so it's not like he'sgetting up on the sermon and
he's talking directly at us, butwe we are all there together as
one rather than you know just aone-hour sermon of you know the
preacher talking to you.
SPEAKER_03 (25:26):
Right.
Or yeah, talking down to you, orhowever you wanna you you you
wanna view it.
You know, that's interestingbecause currently I'm reading a
book by Henry Scogel, which wasthe the was one of the books
that George Whitfield read.
And I don't know if you've seenthe movie Awakening, The
(25:46):
Awakening, but it it's an a it'san incredible book, and so I
would highly recommend it.
So what do you think the churchI I would imagine I would
imagine that in your spiral,your downward spiral early on,
that you know, you probably hada pretty good glimpse of what
(26:09):
hell looked like.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Yeah, you know.
So um I ironically, you know,there's a ch uh section in my
book where I call it a glimpseinto hell, and I'm like, the way
if you know that you're on theroad to hell, then you also know
that there's a heaven.
And so that's when I kind oflike started looking at it, and
that's when I was then thatchapter introduces like I
(26:32):
actually go into depth of eachtime I got blackmailed, and I
talk about each situation, eachone getting more explicit, each
one getting more vicious.
And you know, I I compared thatto a small glimpse of hell to
where it's like this was veryminor to what it could have been
and where and then the level itcould have got to.
SPEAKER_02 (26:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:48):
And then but the other part was that you know,
because of my early churchrebellion and I was atheist, and
you could argue antichrist aswell, that what was going on in
my head at that time wasactually very hellish images.
And to this day, I still uh youknow, I was into horror movies
for a long time, which made mymind very dark, and to where,
(27:08):
you know, I still have a I stillhave horror movie tattoos, you
know, from my stomach all theway up to my chest, one of them
being a Hellraiser tattoo, um,which is a fictional hell priest
that would drag people to helland then torture them for
eternity.
And so, you know, that wouldthat would tell you like some of
the dark images that were likein my mind, and that wasn't you
know helping my journey at all.
And because I picked up horrormovies probably when I was like
(27:30):
12, 13 years old, so I pickedthem up pretty early, and you
know, getting into like heaviermusic and stuff like that.
Um, so I I was down a very likedark and heavy path way before
then, and then you know, kind ofwhen I start stopped, started
putting all these things off tothe side and started becoming
more optimistic, that's youknow, where I found that faith.
(27:51):
And I'm like, because when I in2026, when I officially like,
okay, I'm doing this thing, youknow, I I gave up the horror
movies, I started getting rid ofmy music.
I had like tarot cards, I wasinto tarot for three years.
I recorded that in the book.
I almost took it out because Iwas at the point to write this
right at the bottom.
I'm like, oh my, if I keep thisin the book, I might be getting
myself in a lot of trouble.
(28:12):
But then I kind of settledmyself down.
I'm like, hey, this is part ofthe story.
Maybe I can use this to helpsomeone else that's going down
the tarot realm and how I gotaway from it.
And you know, this is one of thethings I reconcile in some of
this new writing I'm doing aswell.
And so I don't I don't try to goaway from my story, and in fact,
I'll I get very explicit and Iwill be brutally honest with
(28:32):
myself.
I'm like, yeah, I did all thesethings, but it's so that I can
have the conversation withanyone else who is going through
those things, and that they knowmy stories are real, and that's
and that's what I say when I'mwhen I talk about my blackmail,
I get very explicit in details,and it makes people very
uncomfortable, but it's likethere's not a conversation I
couldn't have with the personthat would make me uncomfortable
(28:53):
at this point.
SPEAKER_03 (28:54):
Right.
Yeah, well, there's a there's aa great deal to be said for the
authenticity of all of that,right?
And and that's I think peopletend to fall short because they
uh they don't want to be thathonest with themselves.
And I think that's you know,that's probably a stumbling
block.
Let me shift gears just a littlebit, Devin, on society as a
(29:16):
whole.
What are your thoughts around umsocial media and what it's doing
to drive uh uh hope out of theenvironment?
Because to me, social media isgoing a long way to isolating
people, doing a lot of badthings, right?
(29:37):
And I was just curious yourthoughts based on your
experience.
SPEAKER_00 (29:41):
Yeah.
Um, so going back to gettingblackmailed and everything like
that is because I was addictedto like dating websites, and
that is part of you know thesocial media and and um digital
realm.
The problem with the digitalrealm and social media in
general is that 90% of it isfake and we don't know who is
authentic anymore.
And so the social media realm islike making a lot of people
(30:02):
famous who shouldn't be famous,or it's made people teachers who
shouldn't be teachers andeverything like that.
And the problem I found, evenyou know, back to this
Christianity conversation on thechurches and everything like
that, is like if I get on socialmedia, there's so many
denominations of Christianitythat all we're doing is arguing
with each other, and it's veryhard to actually see the truth
(30:23):
in it when everyone's like, Oh,you're going to hell, you're
going to hell, you're going tohell, you're not a real
Christian, you're anon-believer.
And so it's very difficult.
And when I'm and that's kind ofwhy I I limit myself on I try to
limit myself on social media andwhat I'm watching, and that's
kind of why I ended up in theAnglican church right now, is
that because I saw you knowtruth in like Catholicism, I saw
(30:45):
truth in the Protestants aswell.
And so now I'm just, you know,continuing on that journey.
But I think the digital realm isvery dangerous because it is
fake and most of it's not real.
The problem with it is that westill get the gratification from
the fakeness.
And you know, I saw this withthe dating websites, and I saw
this.
I used to be a heavily uh heavygamer, and occasionally I still
(31:07):
get on gaming now, but I I usedto be a gamer to where like
that's all I was doing on myspare time, and it was giving me
satisfaction, but the problemwith it was that I was losing
out on my actual life and Iwasn't getting actual life
experience, and I think thatended up adding to the dating
realm experience to where Iwasn't getting any matches or
anything like that because Idon't know how to hold a
conversation at this point, andso it it took away from my
(31:31):
social media, the digital worldtakes away from your actual
life, and it makes it very hardto come back from.
And I think our entire societyis kind of running into that to
where it's like we don't knowwhat to do anymore because we're
so reliant on technology aswell.
SPEAKER_03 (31:46):
Yeah, I agree, and I think it's the the the current
state of the family is sufferinggreatly from it.
You know, all you have to do islook around and you you almost
have to pry somebody's deadfingers off their cell phone
because they're they're texting,they're doing this, they're
(32:07):
doing that, and uh there is nothere is no real interaction
with people anymore.
And and and I think it's it'sbecoming worse.
Uh, you know, uh, I think somecountries now are are banning
children up to, I believe therewas one country 16 before they,
but I don't know how they'regonna enforce something like
(32:28):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
I think I was gonna say, um, I know you said it's
getting worse, and I I wouldagree with that because I know I
I I hope I I'm glad I never gotinto this, but I know it's
getting to the point to whereit's like a people are thinking
they have like AI girlfriends towhere like they think they're
dating AI, and I'm like, that isterrible.
I'm like, this is worse, this isarguably worse than a real
(32:51):
person, to where they'recreating a literal fake
girlfriend and think this is aconnection.
And people are selling thisright now, and it's getting more
and more popular.
And I I think that's going to bean even more dangerous realm
than what I fall myself into,where I was getting stuck with
real fake people.
I I think AI would be even moredangerous.
SPEAKER_03 (33:08):
Yep, I agree with you completely.
So, where where can people afind your book, B, find your
social media points so that theycan, if they're in any of these
spaces that we've talked about,can start to find, you know,
some some kind of uh piece or oravenue to where they can a buy
(33:29):
your book and start to get achange in direction of their
life or or you know thecounseling or whatever.
SPEAKER_00 (33:37):
Yeah.
So to find the book itself, uhwe'll start there.
They can find it pretty muchanywhere online.
I don't know if it's anyphysical stores yet.
I haven't been notified or theyhaven't asked me, but I've seen
it on like Barnes and Nobleonline, I've seen it like on
some other real retailersonline.
Yeah, it's on Amazon.
Um ebook, it's on paperback,it's on hardcover.
The only thing it's not in isAudible right now, just because
(33:59):
I have to see if there's amarket before you know I get
further in there because itcosts like$7,000 to do the
audible recording and everythinglike that.
But it they can also get it likeon ebook, they can get on
Kindle, Codobo.
So they could pretty much get iton all the websites.
When it comes to me, they canfind me on Facebook right now.
I'm not doing too much socialmedia, but they could always hit
me up there if they have anyquestions on the book or if they
(34:21):
have any personal questions.
And then last week I alsostarted a YouTube channel.
Um, so that's been uh somethingnew I introduced.
And the channel is calledAnswering the Hard Questions
because I I noticed no one tookthe title yet.
Very surprising.
I was on a podcast a coupleweeks ago.
They're like, ooh, answering thehard questions, that would be a
good podcast name.
And so I typed it in YouTube.
I'm like, oh, no one has it yet.
(34:41):
Let me take the and then Ialready, you know, I already
made a book about it, so I guessI kind of have it copyrighted as
well if they want to come forme.
Yeah.
But if they type up that, I'vejust I've been doing I've been
trying to do like a video everyday.
Sometimes they're like fiveminutes, sometimes they're like
30 minutes.
Like when I was telling myactual story, the long version,
it was two 30-minute videos, andI just did my testimony last
(35:04):
week, and that was like another30-minute video.
So well, anytime I talk about mystory, it's it's very long.
And then some of the smallerstuff I'm doing is like
reflecting on my book, plus uhworking with some of the new
stuff that I'm writing and youknow throwing it out there for
the uh anyone who wants tolisten.
SPEAKER_03 (35:19):
All right.
Well, listen, I it's been anabsolute honor and a pleasure to
have you on, and uh I can't waitto talk to you when your new
book comes out.
I think that'll be that'll be alot of fun.
And if you don't mind, I wouldlike to take a moment and offer
a quote from the Bible, and thisis from Ephesians 6.12.
It says, For we do not wrestleagainst flesh and blood, but
(35:43):
against the rulers, against theauthorities, against the cosmic
powers over this presentdarkness, against the spiritual
forces of evil in heavenlyplaces.
So again, I would like to thankyou so much, Devin, for coming
on and spending your time.
And uh, I know the audience hasgot a great deal of information
(36:06):
from you.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Thanks you for having me.
I was gonna say, I know youquoted some scripture, and I was
gonna say to the quote that Iactually wrote a quote in the
book that actually led me toscripture and what made me
believe in scripture, which wasI I said, in truth you will find
redemption.
And then I found the line lineuh John 3 21, which is really
what brought me back to thefaith, and I'm like, okay.
(36:29):
And the line was I I can't, Ialways forget this line, even
though it's my favorite line.
But essentially it is for thosewho walk in truth will find the
light, and it will be clearlyseen that their deeds have come
from God.
Well, God bless what brought meback to the faith.
SPEAKER_03 (36:43):
God bless you, my friend, and I wish you well, and
I hope to talk to you soon.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
Thank you for listening.
If you would like to listen tomore Clarity from Chaos shows on
demand, go to Clarityfruit ChaosPodcast.budsprout.com or send
Dave an email at info atClarityFruitChaos.com for
information on previous shows.
You can also visit this show onApple Podcasts, Spotify,
(37:10):
Twitter, or Google Podcasts.
Until next time, pleaseremember: it's not about
Wikipedia.
It's about be well, everyone.
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