Finding Our Voices with Gender-Affirming Voice Teacher Renée Yoxon

Episode Transcript
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Alex Iantaffi (00:35):
Hello and welcome to another episode of gender
stories. I know that I'm alwaysexcited, but I can't help it
just I have the most wonderfulguests, and I feel so fortunate
that I got to talk with them,and today, I have the very good
fortune and delight to bespeaking to Renée Yoxon, who's a
queer, non binary and disabled,gender affirming voice teacher

(00:56):
with the passion for voiceeducation, creativity and vocal
curiosity, since 2010 they havetaught 1000s of students how to
love their voice and theirstrength as a teacher is really
explaining and complicated,explaining complicated concepts
in plain language that anyonecan understand, as well as
anticipating student problemsbefore they occur. They're the

(01:17):
creator of a suite of onlinecourses that provide concise and
easy to follow trans voiceeducation to trans and non
binary people all over theworld. Renée is a creative
thinker and a deep listener, andtheir favorite thing in the
world is helping people justlike you to reach their voice
goals. And you can findreneeyoxon.com but also, don't

(01:38):
worry, as usual, I will have allthe links to all the things,
including their social mediaplatforms, because they're very
active on social media,including Tiktok in the episode
description. So welcome Renée.
Thank you so much for makingtime to for speaking with me
today.

Renée Yoxon (01:55):
Well, thank you so much for having me on, Alex. I'm
really happy to be here.

I'm so excited. I feel like I could talk with you
about 1000 things. And I'mreally excited because one of
the very early episodes ofgender stories actually was
about voice because it was transvoices festival in Minneapolis
at that time, all the way backin 2018 when I just started the
podcast, I know it's been aminute that was so fun and and I

(02:20):
think voice is just so importantfor everybody, such a part of
who we are, but especially fortrans and binary and or gender
expansive people. So maybe wecan start from just a really
simple question, what is agender affirming voice teacher,
like, well, what does that rolemean? What does it look like?
Yeah, yeah.

What I tell people, like, at a party or something,
that I'm a gender affirmingvoice teacher, everyone always
says, Wow, I've never heard ofthat job before. Basically, my
role is to help trans and nonbinary and gender expansive
people to create speaking voicesthat bring them safety and
comfort, and I do that primarilynow through my online courses,
but I have in the past done thatthrough in person workshops and

(03:02):
private lessons. Yeah,

well, I do have more questions about what has
led you to go in this direction,but before I go and lose myself
in the little Rabbit Hole. Whatis the difference between a
voice teacher and a speech andlanguage therapist? Because, for
example, I think for a long timea lot of trans folks, the only
option we were offered was likespeech and language therapy. So

(03:26):
what's the difference between avoice teacher and a speech and
language therapist? For folkswho are listening and might not
know the difference,

yeah, yeah, absolutely. So speech language
pathology is, as you say, likethe traditional place that you
would get this information. Thedifference is that I am not like
a medical professional. So mybackground is in singing
teaching or voice pedagogy. SoI'm like a voice professional. I
have a background in singing. Ihave jazz degree and a

(03:53):
songwriting degree, and I havelike, a decade's worth of
singing teaching experience andspeech language pathologists can
be voice experts, but they thefield is much larger than that.
They also tackle things likeswallowing and voice disorders
and cancer screening and feedingfor babies, like there's a whole
whole bunch of things. So genderaffirming voice is just like one

(04:14):
tiny specialization withinspeech language pathology,
whereas a gender affirming voiceteacher only does gender
affirming voice so we workreally closely with SLPs, and
like, for instance, I'm going tobe speaking at on a panel for
the American Speech and HearingAssociation alongside a bunch of
trans SLPs. So we're notstrangers, but it's like a Venn

(04:36):
diagram, you know, reallycousins, absolutely. And I just
wanted to make it clear forfolks listening, because they're
like, Oh, is it the same? Is itdifferent? I'm like, always like
to get those definitions out theway early on, it's like, hard to
say how they're different now,especially because, like, a lot
of so I run a teacher trainingprogram every year, and I

(04:56):
originally created it for peoplelike me who are trying to pivot
into gender affirming voice fromthe singing side of things, but
actually, like, fully half of mystudents are speech language
pathologists who didn't getenough information about this
through their continuingeducation or from their
university program. So they'vecome to me, and so now it's
like, I'm teaching them. They'reteaching me, you know, like
we're helping each other. Thebig difference, though, is that

(05:19):
they can take insurance and Ican't.

Yes, that that's a wonderful cross pollination
though, yes, but it's alsoreally great to see that there
is an increasing number of voiceaffirming, you know, gender
affirming, voice teachers,because. You know, sometimes the
field of gender affirming careis so medicalized, and so it's
really wonderful to also havethat support not come from

(05:42):
within the medical industrialcomplex in some ways. And I
don't know if you ever getclients or, like, yeah, I really
want to work with my voice, butI'm just, you know, I don't want
to work with a medical provideractually. Just want to work on
my voice with like a voiceteacher, and not feel like every
aspect of my identity andtransition is like medicalized.
Does that make sense? I don'tknow.

Totally 100% that's a big part of, like, my approach
to gender affirming voice. Youknow, I love that people have
the option to do it through themedical care system because of
the insurance system set up inplace. But like you say, like
being consistently medicalizedand having to have a problem to
be solved is not always apositive way to approach your
transition. Then, just to beclear, there's lots of SLPs who

(06:25):
don't see it as a problem to besolved, but my approach is fully
exploratory, like, I will helpyou explore the bounds of your
voice and create something. Likeit's creation, it's exploration.
It's not like you have problem.
I solve problem, you know? So Iyeah, I really like that
approach to the to the practice,absolutely.

And I love that you talk about. I help people
explore kind of the range.
Because, you know, as somebodywho is older and has also worked
with older trans folks, wedidn't have a lot of options.
And I think that, you know,historically, there's been this
expectation that you just gofrom one end of the gender
spectrum to the other, right,and so you either are

(07:04):
masculinizing your voice oryou're feminizing your voice,
right? And I feel now we have somuch more of an expansive view
of what we can do with our voiceand and also just so many more
examples of like trans book listand singers in every area you
know, from Opera singers to popsingers, which is so exciting,
even in terms of representation.

(07:28):
But I remember, like 20 yearsago, it was hardly it was almost
impossible to find anyinformation actually about voice
and gender affirming care, andeven less so, coming from a
trans and or non binaryperspective. So yeah, can you
say a little bit more about thatexpansiveness, that not
everybody wants to masculinizeor feminize them? I want more

(07:49):
creativity in their approach tovoice.

I can say a lot about that. In fact, because, as
I told you before we jumped onthe call, I'm speaking at the
Philadelphia trans wellnessconference on Friday, or I'm
speaking on Saturday, but that'swhat I'm speaking about. I'm
speaking about this new coursethat I created in April, I
released in April, called mixand match, designing your non
binary voice. And the wholethought process behind making

(08:12):
that was that there were manyuse cases in gender affirming
voice that are not covered by,strictly speaking, masculinizing
and feminizing. There's, ofcourse, like the neutral case,
like lots of non binary peoplewant something neutral, and that
might involve masculinizing andfeminizing, like to a degree,
but you might also want to belike a gender confusion. So if
you're being read as masculine,maybe you want to hyper feminize

(08:35):
your voice, to, like, throwpeople off, or vice versa, or
maybe you want to combinequalities of the voice in a way
that is less usual. And I'vecalled this use case gender
alien. So, like, there's thosethree cases where, how I started
to conceive of mix and match,and what I really wanted to do
was create a course that, likeanyone from any starting point

(08:56):
could create any kind offinishing point. So it's a very
like open, choose your ownadventure type. Of course.

I love that, because even in terms of when
you know, and if trans and nonbinary folks want to do any kind
of transition, whether it'ssocial or medical, like, I think
that there it is much moreChoose Your Own Adventure
nowadays. I mean, I know thereare still a lot of restrictions
in terms of where you live, youknow, whether it's in the US,

(09:26):
Canada, other countries, whatthe system allows, right? But I
think there is just so much moreinterest in actually that
expensive and non binary piece,and that's very exciting to me
as also a non binary person,yes, but I also think binary
trans people benefit from thisas well, right? Like, at the end

(09:46):
of the day, we all get to chooseour own adventure, even if
you're a cisgender exactly,which actually was a question I
was thinking about asking, islike, what if cis people want to
take their courses? Because, youknow, also like, where is the
line where cis stops and nonbinary begins and then trends
right? But what if somebody whomaybe still identifies a cis or
is not sure, still wants toexplore voice, from this

(10:07):
perspective, would that bewelcome to take your courses?
I'm with you. I'malways like, you know when

Oh, yeah, this is something that I haven't like
made a policy aroundnecessarily, because, like, I
don't get to decide who's transand who's cis at the end of the
day. So cis people are welcometo take my course, because in my
people are like, well, you know,I'm cisgender. And you know,
heart, I think everyone shouldbe able to explore their gender
on their own terms, even if theydo so and then decide that
they're fine with where theystarted. You know, absolutely I

(10:34):
I'm not sure. How thattranslates into, like, the
community aspect of my course,like, do I allow cis people into
my office hours with transpeople? Not explicitly, but,
like, it's a trans space at theend of the day, right? Exactly?
Now, that makes a lot of sense,because you want to keep that
kind of safer, or at least moreshared space that we sometimes
keep in community, right? But Ican totally imagine that some

(10:57):
cis folks would want to kind ofplay with their voice in some
ways. And also, you know, all ofus have started from somewhere
in our gender. I think if you'recis and you're taking my course,
maybe you're maybe you're notbad, like, maybe ask yourself
some questions.

(11:17):
then there's all the stuff aboutgender. It comes up. I mean,
sometimes Absolutely, andsometimes I'm like, here,
friend, I wrote a book How toUnderstand Your Gender about
this, which is for anyone. And Imean, at the end of the day,
like the cis and trans binary isjust another unhelpful binary.
Like, I think I was justlistening to the gender reveal
podcast just now and someoneidentified as cis plus, but

(11:41):
also, like before, I was doingcourses and teaching privately,
I would regularly get emailsfrom cisgender people who had,
like, very reasonable requests,you know, like I got an email
from a gay man who livedsomewhere where it was not legal
to be Gay and wanted tomasculinize his voice to for
safety and comfort. Like, thesame reasons that trans people
change their voice. And I wouldget emails from like women

(12:02):
wanting to either feminize ormasculinize, depending on the
context. Like, you know,there's, there are cis people
out there who want to modifytheir voice as well.
Oh, 100% I mean, at the end ofthe day, I think that gender
affirming care is for everybody,you know, like, and you know,
that's so much of the premise ofmy work is that really the
gender binary also impactseverybody, regardless of how we

(12:25):
identify, right? But, and alsothe voice is so cultural. It's
so fascinating. I'm on my, like,third adventure with tea, as I
call the testosterone. You know,now I'm not like, on and off
every year, but, you know, like,14, 1314, years ago, I had my
first, like, here on tea, andthen I stopped. I think a lot of

(12:47):
non binary people haveinteresting relationships with
hormones, right? And now I'mkind of ending another round.
And, you know, one of mypartners was like, Oh, your
voice now sounds in English likeit sounds in Italian. Because in
challenges like so much likedeeper, you know. And I even
remember when I moved to the UK,I was like, why I was still fan

(13:10):
presenting and identifying. AndI was like, Why do all the women
like, Tom tap here, like this.
This is not something that I'veexperienced in my culture,
right? It was just everybody'sin my so much more I teach. This
is documented. This is a welldocumented, right? Yeah, because
it's like, you know, and, and Ithink that's something that not
everybody thinks about thatculturally, you know, like, yes,

(13:32):
there is, like, Anglo culture,really, that binaries push to
the limit and pushes people to,sometimes not use their voices
in comfortable ways. I don'tknow if you have any thoughts
about that.
But did you sayAnglo culture? Is that Anglo?
Yeah, I think it's interesting,because, like, even within
English, there are so manydifferent, Oh, true cases of

(13:54):
this. So if you look at like NewZealand English, yes, they tend
to differentiate gender way lessthan Californian English, for
example.

That's true, interesting. That is
fascinating. But yeah, I wonderif you have any thoughts about
that interaction, about voiceculture and gender, or if you've
had clients who've been wantingto explore that, or, yeah,

absolutely. I mean, I have lots of thoughts. You're
brilliant. Let me look evenbefore I was doing online
courses I was teaching here inMontreal, yes, famously, like,
very multicultural. So I wouldhave, I think every student I
taught spoke at least twolanguages, usually three, and
different languages tend to havedifferent average pitches,

(14:35):
different resonances, as you'resaying. So we would have to,
like work on multiple languageswith every individual student.
But Further to that, like now in2024 we're interconnected
globally in a way we never havebeen before. So it's way more
likely that I, as a genderaffirming voice teacher, will
teach someone outside of myregion, outside of my culture,

(14:57):
outside of my language. And Ifully have taught like people in
Brussels or maybe in Dutch, or Idon't know, like, you know, all
things that I would not run intonecessarily on the street. And
because of that, we have to beeven more mindful not to impose
our biases around genderexpression vocally. So that was
another thing that I thoughtabout a lot when I was making

(15:18):
mix and match, like I had made afew courses before that with the
information I knew about coursemaking. But this time, I really
was like, Who am I notconsidering when I'm thinking
about the typical. In takingthis course, and I really had
to, like, open my mind, like, Idon't know anything really about
anyone I have, I can't assumeanything about gender, and even

(15:40):
what we, like, you would kind ofthink broadly, like, feminine
voices are like this, and, youknow, physically and masculine
voices are like this.
Physically, it doesn't hold up.
There's no Universalistexpression of gender, like a
really good case I love, is thatwe tend to think of like a wide
contour, so a wide range ofpitches as being a feminine

(16:01):
trait, and a more shallow ormonotonous range of pitches as
being a masculine trait. Butthere's a study that showed that
German speakers men have widercontours. Yes, have shallower
contours, you know. And I knowlots of people who speak German,
I just never noticed that. So Ithink, yeah, you really cannot
assume anything about whatsomeone's goals are unless you

(16:22):
live in that community with them.

I love that. And at the same time, I feel like
voice is something thatculturally, people really rely
on in terms of us, one of thegender markers, right? Like I
often, you know, it's sofascinating to me to see how
people gender me, and the olderI get, the more fascinated and
less battered again. Now it'salmost like just some social

(16:46):
experiment. Let's see how muchgender is spread in different
contexts. You know, if I'm bymyself or with other people,
depending on who I'm with in theyou know, especially I'm still
masking everywhere in public.
And so, you know, sometimes ifI'm masking, and depending on
how I'm dressed, I guess third,and then I'll say something, and
they're like, oh, sorry, ma'am.
I mean, sir, I mean, ma'am. I'mlike, so good, so good. I'm not

(17:12):
upset, you know, like, you canjust be like, Hey, friend, or
whatever works. But it's sofascinating to me how we're
still relying on voice so much.
And depending on who I'm talkingto, they may also read the voice
as more masculine or morefeminine in different places.
And so it's, yeah, it's justthis really interesting thing
that it's so

context specific, too. I mean, I live in Montreal,
but I just spent six monthsliving in Mexico City, and I
found that my, like, Itransgressed gender harder
there, you know, like, here I'm,like, average height. I dress
like we're all, you know, it'sall a bunch of, like, hip
weirdos. Here in Montreal, theydress every kind of way that's
real. But in Mexico City, Ifound that, like, I leaned more

(17:56):
masculine, just I didn't changeanything about me, but I got
stirred a lot more than I dohere. It was really wild to
experience I came home, kind oflike, did I like that? Maybe I
should go on tea?

Yeah, it's fascinating to me when I go to
it Italy, it's like, it's a realmixture. You know, sometimes if
I'm by myself, I get scaredmore, but if I'm with my kids,
then it's like, ma'am more. It'slike, wow. Like you said, it's
context. People are reading allthese different clues. They're
totally out of our control.
Also, 100% you

can't, like, you can't hang your expectations on
other people. Like, if you knowpassing is such a nefarious
goal, because it totally dependson 100 factors, as you just
said, and

it depends on other people's perceptions,
which are really, I mean, we cando things to ourselves as trans
people, but it's really outsideof our control, how people
perceive us in so many ways.
Well, in talking about thingsout of our control, I think that
when people take hormones. Iknow for me, and I know for
other folks I've worked with andfriends as well. One of the
things that's out of thecontrol, of your control, for

(18:59):
folks to go from estrogendominant to testosterone
dominant bodies, it's really thevoice changes, right? It's like,
I think there can be so muchanxiety. I know I enjoy singing,
not professionally, but justreally love singing. And one of
the things I'm like, Oh, howSSO, when I impact pitch, I feel
like I don't know how to singanymore. And, and you are a

(19:21):
singer as well. So I wonder ifpeople ever come to you with
concerns around, like, I want tokeep singing, or also no trans
feminine folks who are like, whoare singers and have a really
complex relationship with theirvoices, because, you know, they
might feel some sort of wayaround having a more masculine
and airport voice, whatever itmeans. While, you know, having a

(19:43):
feminine like identity andexpression, does that make
sense?

It totally does.
And like, despite the fact thatI was a vocal teacher for like,
a singing teacher. Rather, formany years, I haven't really
tackled this too much in mybusiness. Currently, not for any
reason. I just, I have beenmaking courses that I haven't
gotten there. You've been busy,but I definitely, I have, like,
done a bunch of private lessonswhere this has been the key
issue. And I mean, well, okay,let's talk about one thing at a

(20:12):
time, like taking tea. There's awhole like, process of adapting
to your new voice on tea, and ittakes longer than most people
would like. To put it mildly,people really want to be good
now. And yeah, it does changeyour relationship to tea, I
mean, to singing so but, like, Idon't know. I think there are
risks with. Taking anymedication, and your voice is

(20:34):
going to change anyway, like,whether you take tea or not,
your relationship to singingwill change. Like, if I listen
to recordings of myself from2010 which is when I released my
first album, I sound nothinglike I like I do now. I mean,
it's been 15 years, and my voiceis deepened, which is just what
happens. Or, of course, you knowyou could become disabled, or

(20:54):
you could acquire any number ofthings that could change your
voice, like by not making thedecision, you're not not
changing your voice. Time ischanging your voice. You're just
making an active choice in that.

I love that you made that point. Because I think
that people often when we thinkabout gender, we think about as
this fixed entity, almost. And Ithink it does change for
anybody, cis or trans or gender,expensive or non binary, right?
Our gender expression andpresentation changes. Our voice
definitely. It changes withaging. It just does, right?

(21:27):
Total voices change. And as youget older, voice change. I know
as a disabled person, it's likeboy, vocal cords are a muscle,
right? And so, like, when I'mhaving play wraps, or I'm tired,
like, you know that those vocalcords get really tired, or I can
feel it, right? And I'm like,Oh, why is my voice like this?
And I'm like, or

even if you have back pain, like, it impacts your
ability, which impacts yourvoice? Your voice is a really
good, like, barometer for yourgeneral health. Also, which is
super interesting, exactly,

which also creates some really interesting
ideas about what we consideracceptable, about voice or not.
I've been thinking about this alot as a disabled person who's
aging with Ehlers DanlosSyndrome, which then also, you
know, because my spine isunstable, my voice could be
different any day. And Iabsolutely for a living, you
know, as a therapist, as aspeaker, as a you know. And I'm
always like, wow, what happens,you know? And I'm like, oh, but

(22:23):
what if part of disabilityjustice is also kind of
challenging these ideas aboutabout professional in airports,
voices, right? Like, what doesit mean to be like a speaker?
Maybe that struggle a little bitmore with breath some days than
others, right? And I don't knowif folks are really, I love that
you're coming from this moreintersectional perspective where

(22:43):
you're looking at gender, but Ithink you also have some
experience, you know, in workingwith disabled folks and kind of
in affirming ways, and alsoneurodivergent folks also might
have feelings about their voicefor lots of different oh my
goodness, exactly. I don't knowjust if you have thoughts, go
for it.

I have had chronic pain since I was 20, and I'm 36
now, so I'm certainly not atlike, the height of my chronic
pain now, like, Thank youuniverse. It's very well
managed. But there were yearswhere it was, like, really
unmanageable. And I was also atthat time, like a professional
singer, like I was weddings atrestaurants and, you know, like,

(23:25):
jobbing gigs, we used to callthem. And, like, I remember
thinking to myself, like, Ican't take a big breath in,
like, and I was trying to comeup with, like, a new way to
phonate that involved lessintercostal muscle, because it
was so painful for me. I don'tknow if I succeeded, but, like,

(23:45):
I was a jazz singer, so there'sa lot more, like forgiveness in
terms of vocal technique. Youcan, like, do things a little
differently than, you know, it'sa little bit more stringent in
terms of classical, but I dothink there's, like, a lot more
room for different types ofvoices, especially as we move
forward in time, than there everwere, you know. And then on top

(24:06):
of that, I work for the disabledwomen's network of of Canada.
And yes, that job really helpedme to, like, broaden my
understanding of whataccessibility means, what you
know, the cross disabilitysphere, and I have, like, a very
radical definition ofdisability. I'm like, you wear
glasses. Welcome to the club.
Absolutely

yes. We're all just temporarily abled, if
that's who you are. But really,like, yes, most of the world is
disabled or disabled at somepoint exactly.

I mean, I'm sure you this is a little bit off
topic, but, like, I can't Icannot understand people aren't,
like, fully ready to jump on theDisability Justice bandwagon.
I'm like, it's in your future,my friend or somebody you love,
right? Like, this is for you.

I often joke that, finally, my age is
catching up with my disability,so people are also shocked that
I can't do things like the wayof my 20s when I was a child,
exactly. Anyway, we can go onall the tangents we want. I feel
like the notorious for going ontangents with actually, my
guess, don't worry about it.
But, yeah, I have so manythoughts on this, but let's look

(25:12):
back on like, the hormonespiece, right? The masculinizing
not happening as fast as peoplewould wish. And of course, for
folks who are going fromtestosterone dominant to
estrogen dominant bodies, right,hormones don't do really
anything to voice, yeah, whichsometimes the hard news. To

(25:32):
break to some of the youngerclients I've worked with, but,

but you know what?
It's so funny, like, havingtalked to many people on both
sides of this, it's like thetrans masculine people are like,
who can't take tea, are like madthat they can't train and then
the trans women are mad thatthey can't take drugs to fix
their voice, like everybodywants what the other person has.
I know I

often joke. I was like, I wish that we could just
all mix and match with eachother. I know that would be so
great, wouldn't it? Yeah,absolutely, a little take a
titty, leave a titty program.
Absolutely, exactly, well, andall of those things are just so
wild to me as well, because,like you said, there's also,
like, you know, queer voices,right? And like, gay men are,
like, more effeminate, again, inair quotes. So kind of where you

(26:18):
can't really hide, kind of whoyou are, because your voice has
a certain quality, right? Andvoice is a big piece of that as
well. So it's just, it's thisold gender thing. It's always so
fascinating to me. I'm like,

It's thorny. It's very thorny.

It's Tony. And also it's just, so what's the
word I'm looking for? Fragile.
You know, I remember, even as achild, thinking, Okay, if just
me wearing different pants andwearing short hair can means
that people think I'm a boy. Howsolid is this gender thing?

Unknown (26:50):
Really? So Real? Alex, oh my goodness, totally. Yeah.
And

so thinking about all of this ray I'm just really
curious about the role of like,playfulness and creativity,
right? You talk about vocalcuriosity in your bio. I think
one of the things I love aboutyour work, it is that quality of
playfulness and creativity, Ithink sometimes, especially for
trans and non binary folks orgender expansive folks, it can
feel so heavy to do genderaffirming things, right? I'm

(27:20):
doing this thing, I havecomplicated feelings around it,
right? And so anything that canbring, like levy joy or levity,
that's a great word, yeah. Sotell me a little bit more how
you bring that into your work,that playfulness, that curiosity
for listeners, or maybe not asfamiliar with your work, sure,
so

when people ask, like, what is that? Where should
I start with this work? I thinkthey're always expecting me to
be like, Okay, do 10 resonancepush ups. But I always say to
start with a warm up. Becauseone of the like, the thing that
brings the levity down in thispractice, is this need to
perform gender adequately? Like,am I a woman enough? Am I man

(28:00):
enough? Am I whatever enough inthis work? So I always say,
Look, if you've never done avoice practice before, just
start with a warm up. And I'mgonna take this opportunity to
plug my free warm up that I haveon my website. If people want
it, go get it right now. Do it.
I was gonna say we can even

try it out if

you want. Oh, sure, we can talk about it. Yeah. So,
I mean, all a warm up is, is,like a stretch and a face
stretch, maybe it's a littleneck massage, and then, like,
some generalized exercises tojust to get your voice warm. And
what that does, it does a bunchof things. One, it like, sets
you up for success, so you'reway more likely to be able to
achieve the exercises if yourvoice is a little stretched and

(28:38):
warmed up, just like youwouldn't just take off in a
sprint, you do a little bit ofwalking, a little stretching,
then you go for a jog, and maybeyou do some fast running, right?
So it's just like you don't wantto work on cold muscles. Then it
also helps you to developproprioception, so body
awareness you might not know,like what you're able to do, or
what's challenging or what'seasy, you might not know, but

(28:59):
through a warm up, you candevelop that without any of the
baggage of is this woman enoughor man enough, right? And then
the third thing it does reallywell is it like builds up your
tolerance to silliness, becausesometimes I forget, because I've
been in this game a long time,but it's so silly to, like, make
a bunch of weird sounds, and Ican just see the like blushing

(29:19):
happening on people's faces.
When they do it, like they getbeat red. They're like, Oh God,
it's horrible. The sounds I'mmaking, I will out silly you any
day of the week, because I'vejust been doing it longer. I
have absolutely no shameanymore, and that's what I want
my students to develop, like,just the ability to, like,
squeak and squawk and have yourvoice break and just do what
needs to happen in order toreally get into like, what am I

(29:40):
capable of, and what do I evenwant from my voice?

Yeah, because otherwise, you're not even kind
of familiar with that. And Ilove that. I think that lavity
and silliness and playfulnessare so useful in every area of
life. You know, I used to workwith teenagers a lot as a
therapist, and sometimes I'd belike, Oh my god, Alex, you're so
weird. I'm like, you haven'teven touched the like edges of
my weird. Honestly, we can

get so much weird with absolutely no tolerance for
weirdness, right? Because it'slike when you first start to
develop the realization thatpeople are aware of you as a
person, and it's totallymortifying. Right to be known as
you get older, like my olderstudents are, have very high,
silly tolerance, right? Yeah, ifyou try absolutely

and I really nurture and I'm like, Look, none
of your peers are in this room.
We can get silly. You know, I'mbound by confidentiality as your
therapist, so we can make weirdsounds exactly. We can like, do
all the somatic therapyexercises you want, and nobody
will know like, but it can bereally hard to bring out that
silliness. And I know there'salso like, on a more serious

(30:51):
note, I know that for a lot ofneurodivergent folks, especially
autistic folks, that can be alot of shame around sound and
voice even, you know, althoughI'm a family therapist, I'm also
Somatic Experiencingpractitioner, so I like to bring
the body into the healingprocess. And even like steaming
through sound. I know I do a lotof steaming through sound. I've

(31:12):
used that a lot as a parent,especially when my oldest was
really young, steaming throughsound, steaming through
vocalizing, toning, but likemaking, like weird eye pitch, T
Rex noises, as we call them inour family. But if you're not in
a neuro divergent, affirmingenvironment, family or
educational context, that can beso much shame because people

(31:33):
have been told off or aboutreally, you know, why are you
making that sound? Or that soundis annoying, right? Or so that
can be like an, I don't know ifyou'll ever come across that,
that there's also an extra, likepush away from that levity, that
playfulness, that, because thereis so much kind of trauma that
maybe people are mad aroundbeing told off for making

(31:55):
certain noises. Does that makesense? Definitely,

definitely. And on top of that, there's some
documentation that shows thatautistic people like process
sound differently, obviouslythis, but their own voice as
well, right? So I've definitelyhad a student that was like, I
can't speak any lower than this,because I cannot hear my voice
if I you know, and like, thetrope of, like, autistic people
who speak a little at a highervolume, it's like, there's a

(32:20):
physiological reason for that.

I was so relieved, actually, when I found
out about this, because I waslike, oh my god, more and more
of my life makes sense, yeah?
Because often I'm like, I'mspeaking too low, or I'm
speaking too loud, because, or,you know, I listen to my
podcast, sometimes I'm like, Oh,my accent sounds like this. In
my head. It doesn't soundanything like this. Or,
sometimes, you know, when I'mlearning, especially when I say

(32:43):
a word in English, and thensomebody who's an English
speaker is like, that's how youpronounce him. Like, that's what
I'm saying.

Like, that makes me I hate, I mean,

yeah,

I think English is the one language that you can
say it any way you Okay, otherlanguages, yes, we should
attempt to, like, imitateEnglish, go for

it. It's the most bizarre language we've been
watching chaos. And it's like,is it Minotaur? Is it Minotaur?

There's no rules for pronunciation. How's anyone
supposed to learn this exactly?
But because, going back to whatwe were saying, if you've been
told all your life over andover, like, hey, lower your
voice. You're speaking kind ofloud, like you're a nuisance,
then you're obviously gonna havehang ups about about engaging
with your voice. So I mean,there you really have to go to
therapy. That's like you're muchadvice on that front, besides

(33:34):
work on healing that trauma,because if you can break through
that barrier, it's a moreenjoyable process, absolutely.

And I think it's a both end. Sometimes people
might be more willing toactually be playful with sound
in kind of a learning how to usetheir voice context than in a
therapeutic context, right? Sosometimes it really goes hand in
hand. I'm like, Okay, there'ssome voice stuff. And I might
even say it'd be really greatfor you to work with a voice
teacher or a speech and languagetherapist to really, like, have

(34:06):
the space where all you're doingis voice exploration, and then
here we can talk about all thefeelings that come up while
you're doing the work there,which I really love, kind of
being able to do that work handin hand. This

is why we need each other, and why there's like, a
lot of like, a beautifulopportunity for cross discipline
growth, absolutely.

But I love the vocal curiosity piece. Is there,
like, Are there exercises thatyou might be willing to share
that kind of you recommend atthe beginning. So if somebody is
listening or watching theepisode on YouTube and it's
like, oh, I'm really intriguedby the thing that Renée has
mentioned about warming up yourvoice. And like I said, I'm

(34:47):
always willing to be silly, soI'm happy to be your guinea pig
at the exercise.

Okay, well, so warming up is pretty basic, so I
don't know if we need to coverthat today, but I will give you
an exercise that isn't in all ofmy courses, and that is the
sound journal. And this is theexercise that is probably people
are the most resistant to it.
And it's not, strictly speaking,like required. It's something
that I picked up throughvising.

(35:15):
Improvising singing. So I likehave a background in jazz, and
improvising music is likeimprovised music is a part of
that. And I went to this theCalifornia jazz conservatory to
take a workshop with Theobleckman about jazz for a week,
like a long time ago. This islike in 2017 but we this is why.
I learned the sound journalexercise. And basically, when

(35:37):
you're like an improvisingmusician, one of the things a
serious improviser will do isdevelop a language on the
instrument of improvisingsounds. And you can really tell,
like, if you've never listenedto improvised music, you might
not know this the differencebetween someone who has
developed that that alphabet ofsound, and someone who has not

(35:58):
so. So basically, it's prettysimple exercise. You just start
by writing down all the soundsthat you can make, and you'll be
like, that sounds really openended, but you'll be shocked at
how fast you run out of ideas,and you have to dig a little
bit. So I always say, like,let's start with the natural
world. Okay, so could youimitate a cat sound?

I mean, maybe from here. [makes cat sounds]

Great. So I would, I would maybe write that as,
like, really hard. It's like, westarted with the hard one for,
okay, okay, we'll go to anotherwe'll go to another animal. How

[makes dog sounds] Much better with that
about a dog?
one. Okay, all right, much morecomfortable with dogs, for some
reason.

So then you could, like, you know, write as many
animals as you could think ofthat you know the sound of you I
don't know the sound of a Yak,for instance, but I know a
snake, and I know goat and Iknow a sheep, and you know, I
can write all that down, thenyou might go into the unnatural
world. So, could you imitateyour microwave? If you have a

(37:03):
microwave,

microwaves, how does a microwave sound? Now I
have the blank moment. So minesounds like, [makes microwave
sound]

yes, that's a good microwave, excellent. Yeah.
Thank you very much, you know.
So you can look around yourspace and imitate your fridge,
and you could imitate the sound,like the sound that YouTube
makes when you turn it on theTV, or the cars outside, like
we're imitating sounds Oh yeah,tracks like oh, yeah, yeah,
excellent. And then, you know,you don't have to imitate

(37:40):
things. You could also just,like, use choose really basic
sounds. Like, could you do anascending tone,

Oh, like, like, a [makes a tone that goes from low
to high]

let's make it even just go up on ah, ah, beautiful.
So the next step of that is totake all the things you've
written down and diversify them.
So try to find variations ofeach one. So let's just take
that ascending on Ah, could youdo that as quietly as possible?

[Makes a quiet ahh sound]

I didn't even hear that.

Unknown (38:16):
It was so quiet. I can get pretty quiet. I know it's
hard to believe, but

Great. Okay, so now I want you to identify, how did
that feel different from thenormal volume? Ah, for Yeah,

it felt like I almost wanted to be like,
smaller, okay. Just wanted to,like, just be smaller and finer.

Yeah. So for me, I felt when I do that, let me try
it, ah. I feel like, Hmm, that'sinteresting. Normally I feel
less pressure. But today, I kindof feel like I had to control it
more. So I felt more pressure.
Actually, I didn't warm uptoday. So you can do all these
variations, and then you startto make observations about how

(39:03):
they feel. Now, that wasn't partof the original exercise. That
was my that's my addition,because I want to help students
develop this likeproprioception, like when I when
I'm quieter, this happens whenI'm louder. This happens now,
let's do another variation. Canyou do that same ascending
sound, but on E instead of ah,try it. E, yeah. E, go ahead one
more time. Good. Now do ahagain, just to see if you can

(39:30):
feel a difference.

Ah, I want to do a like I did E. So I was like,
Oh, that is fascinating. I triedto do a but I'm still doing it
like the E. I was like, well,that's fascinating. Okay,

yeah, nice. Okay.
And did, could you do them backto back and see if they if they
make a difference physically.

That's like, this is not pre prepared. We did not
try this area. Yeah, I want todo the almost the same thing. My
body doesn't want todifferentiate the sounds.
But you were able to right, likeI can hear you, so something is

(40:15):
physically happening, yes,right? So I would, you know,
maybe take, how do you say? Goahead and drive it and try all
the different vowels. Now, I'mfascinated by this exercise.
Yeah, Italian probably has somevowels that English doesn't
have, you know, and you can addthose into the mix. And so
that's just. One. We just pickedone sound, and we had like 10

(40:35):
variations, you know. Andthere's really no limit to like
the web that you can create, butit's supposed to be like a fun,
silly, engaging exercise. Yeah,that is the sound journal.
That is really cool. That's avery cool exercise. Thank you.
And you talked about yourcourses. So what courses do you
have out there at the momentthat people want to learn more

(40:57):
from you? And you know, ifthey're like this sounds great.
How? What kind of classes canpeople take with you?

Sure, so there's one we've already mentioned,
which is mix and match designingyour non binary voice. And
that's the latest course that II just released. I think anyone
could take this course, because,as I said, it's designed for,
like, anyone of any startingpoint to reach any goal. And
it's a little bit more likestudent led, I would say, and
culturally responsive, likethere's less of my ideas of

(41:26):
gender in that course than anyother course. My bestseller is
mindful voice feminization. Sothis is for the girlies, and
specifically it addresses, like,the the psychological hurdles
that come up in the feminizationprocess. Because it's as you
know, there's a lot of baggagethere, yes. So it comes with,

(41:47):
like, a journal, promptsworkbook. There's a lot of like,
reflexive exercises to do. Andthen the third student course
that I have is masculinize yourvoice without testosterone. So
this is about imitating theeffects of testosterone without
taking it. And a lot of peoplewill take this if they're too
young to take tea, or if they'replanning to, but they're way on

(42:07):
the wait list, or if they justdon't want to, because they
don't want such specific effectsof tea, but they want that. And
I do have some people whomessage me to ask if they can
take it if they're on T anddefinitely it can help. And I'm
hoping someday to make a courselike specifically for adapting
to your voice on testosterone.
But there will be a lot ofcrossover with the masculinized,
because there's a lot of similarexercises,

yeah, and I think that's really great as well,
because some people cannot go onhormones also for health
reasons. Absolutely. I've hadclients both with testosterone
dominant or estrogen dominantbodies that for various reasons,
cannot go on hormones for healthreasons. Yeah, and so even just
to have a resource where you'relike, look, you can still work

(42:50):
on your expression, includingyour boys, without kind of
hormonal changes, necessarily,if that's not something that's
accessible to you for all thereasons listed, or kind of for
health reasons, right?

And if you took to, like, prepare if you're planning
to take tea someday, like, so alot of people who take tea,
people don't know this, but lotsof people who take tea then go
on to do voice training after,yeah, it's very normal. So it's
nothing to be ashamed of.
There's just like no one path toyour ultimate gender expression.
And I just ventured to say, wenever get there. There's no
ultimate.

No, I really honestly, over the years, my
favorite metaphor of gender thatstarted using a few years back
is like gender as a landscape. Ithink I started using it, I
don't know, sometimes in 2010something, when I did my Ignite
talk, I was like, Oh, actually,gender is the landscape, which
means we can even revisit thesame places, but in a different

(43:47):
way. Like I feel like, as I getolder and I get less worried
about how people read me, I'mreally revisiting femininity for
this masculine queer lens, andreally embracing, like, oh,
actually, maybe I do want towear earrings again. You know, I
actually do want to express, youknow, my gender in a different
way. And I just love the ideathat we can kind of come back,

(44:08):
revisit places we've been goingto dip through different lens,
go to different places. I don'tknow that we're ever done. You
know, I don't know. That's just,

I think we're never done. No, I was, how can we be
done? Like, it's with this,whatever gender is really,
especially as the goal postkeeps moving, I don't know if
you've, if you're, you're not onTiktok, so you don't know. But
like, the things they'reexpecting of women nowadays.
Whoo, it's even worse than we

I'm not on Tiktok, but I am really
passionate. I love reality TV,and especially as a as a
marriage and family therapist, Ido love dating shows and
relationship shows, andsometimes I'm so confounded. And
luckily, one of my nestingpartners is on tick tock. And
I'm like, what is happeningright now? Why are they talking

(44:58):
like this or saying this, orpresenting in this way? And
they're like, let me tell youwhat's happening. Like I was, I
thought there was pressure inthe 80s and 90s, but now the
pressure is, like, I know offthe chart. I always used to say,
like, being a teenager in the inthe 2000s was brutal, like yes,
but I don't know if I want to beone. Now, I was a teenager in

(45:20):
the 80s. I thought that was badenough in the love the 80s. And
now I just, I feel like there'sso much input as well the
teenagers have about what'sright, what's wrong, how they
should dress, how they shouldlook, how that should. Sound
exactly. It's exhausting.

There's a name for everything now, which we didn't,
which we didn't.

There's a name, whether it's accurate or not
sometimes, or whether we'reusing, I'm like, do we need to
use all this very medicalizedterms, too? And I was like, I
don't know. Yeah, it'sinteresting this.

You know, people will, like, just sort of
tangentially, often ask me tocharacterize voices on Tiktok,
like I respond to people'scomments and something, some
people always ask me, like,what's the gay voice? Yes, and
it's like, you can callsomething the gay voice, but
it's like, impossible to pindown. It's this weird, nebulous
thing. And like, just likeyou're saying, there's lots of

(46:12):
friends vocally and otherwisethat have a name, but you can't
ever really pin them down verywell, and that just makes the
goalpost impossible, and itmakes people perpetually
dissatisfied, you know,

absolutely well.
And also just the influence of,like, media, right? I remember,
you know, growing up, yeah,there was TV, of course, like,
but it hadn't quite, didn't havequite the pervasive impact that
it has now even, you know,growing up in Italy, think about
how many more people in Sicily,young people would speak
Sicilian, and older people wouldonly speak Sicilian. But, you

(46:47):
know, now, with decades anddecades and decades of
television, that has changedthings, and now there's a lot
more preservation of language,right? This kind of uniformity
that happens, and even here,it's just like younger people
pick up accents from areas thatdon't even live in. Because
fascinating, that what'srepresented, right? Fascinating.

(47:07):
I'm really fascinated. But justlike the impact of media and
social media as well. On just

I noticed that Mexico actually, because I spoke
English with a lot of myfriends, I speak Spanish as
well. So it was a mix of both,yeah, but a lot of people had,
like, British accents inEnglish, because you don't, I
mean, you get to choose yourEnglish accent when you're
learning a second totally,right?

Yes. How did you choose yours when you when you
learn English?
It was the teacher, right?
Because people were like, Oh,why do you have this accent? And
it's like, of course, you mimicwhatever exactly teacher or the
tape you listen to, right? Orwhatever TV shows you're
watching, or like, yeah, it'sfascinating. Love it, yeah? And
that, that casual piece, is somuch harder to pinpoint. But you

(47:50):
know, and I know that you'rekind of kind of going off a
little bit in a differentdirection. I know that speech
and language therapists, orpathologists, as they're called
in Canada and other places, aremore on the medical side, but
there's also very real aspect oflike hearing for our voice,
right? That like, beyond all theother variations, I think that,

(48:14):
traditionally, a lot of folkskind of strain their voices,
maybe in ways that don't need tobe strained or used. And so I
don't know if that's somethingthat's part of the work that you
do, or that's something thatit's really separate from the
work that you do, or justcurious about that.

Yeah, certainly, I always include, like, a section
on vocal health. With everycourse that I do, I think that
people are, like, afraid ofaffecting their voice, of
hurting their voice, more thanis like, it's an outsized fear.
It's not really reflected by thereality. Certainly it's
possible, but to have, like,permanently, to permanently

(48:55):
damage your vocal folds. Youneed to be like you have to have
chronic laryngitis. You know,you have to be like ripping
those chords every single night.
You know, like people in musicaltheater are like, at risk of
getting vocal nodes. None of mystudents use their voice enough
to physically hurt their voice.
The only exception, of course,is people on tea who are

(49:16):
constantly straining super hardbecause they have, like, an old
pattern that they need to break.
Right? That makes sense? Yeah?
So of course, I like tellpeople, you know, warm up,
hydrate appropriately. Littlesips throughout the day is best.
Don't smoke if you can, or vape,that's just like, straight bad
for your whole body, yeah? Butharm reduction, if it keeps you
from killing yourself, thengreat, go ahead. Absolutely,

(49:39):
like, you know, I have a veryharm reductive approach.

I'm a harm reduction therapist. I'm right
there with you. Whatever getsyou for the night.

You know, I'd rather you didn't for your vocal
help, but exactly, you can ifyou need to. And then, like,
yeah, just if it starts to hurt,or if it's consistently hurting,
you do need to see aprofessional at some point.
Because also I am, like I saidearlier, I'm not a medical
professional, and every so oftenthere is somebody with a
pathology who does need to haveit looked at, of course, and

(50:09):
that's why, like, I keeprelationships with these people
and with with speech languagepathologists, with
laryngologists, and I alwaysjust say, if your voice is
consistently hurting, like acutepain, a little bit of soreness
maybe is okay, like with anymuscle, but acute pain, that's
when you need to see yourprimary care physician,
absolutely.

But I love what you said as well, that actually
it's really hard to hurt yourvoice unless you're, like,
harder than you. Harder thanpeople think, right? Because
even that is kind of reassuring,I think, to folks you know, to
the end of really hearing thatpiece that actually, like, we
can be playful, we can becurious, we can, like, exercise,
you know, like, you candefinitely sprain your ankle

(50:48):
running, but, like, watch out,yeah.
But that's that piece of likebeing in tune with your body as
well, right? And totally and sodo you find that sometimes this
is also helping people be morepresent with themselves and more
in tune with their bodies inother ways?

Yes, good point, actually. So I do like an office
hour every month, a live officehour so people who are in any
course can come and ask theirquestions, and occasionally I
will see someone who, likedemonstrates an exercise to me,
and they're not sure why. Itfeels bad, and I'm like, Oh, you
are not noticing that you'rebreathing in this particular
way, or that your postures inthis particular way. And that's
why I have the office hour,because every so often there's

(51:29):
going to be someone who's notnoticing something that I, as a
teacher will immediately notice.
And that's normal. That's like,that's, if it wasn't normal, I
wouldn't need to the officehour, you know? So it's, yeah, I
always encourage people like,bring your questions to the
class, or, if you're justcurious, if you want to get
feedback on an exercise, come tomy office hour. I'm hoping, in
the future, to increase thenumber of office hours I'm
giving and create, like, a morerobust community for my for my

(51:51):
students, but it's like, on thehorizon, it's a 2025, project.
You know,

the sound is so many hours in a day, and you
already do the most. I'm alwaysso impressed with I subscribe on
your channel, on Instagram, orwhatever they're called now the
Instagram channels. And I waslike, wow, Renée is posting
something new. Again. It's like,you're just creating that
content. And it takes time tocreate content for social media.
So

I'm very lucky. I have an editor, so I work with
editor, Tegan. I just wanted toshout her out. She is I wouldn't
be able to do this without her.

Well, thank you, Tegan. But also you do produce a
lot of, like, really goodcontent. And actually, that
leads me to a question that Iwanted to ask you earlier about
we kind of went on other reallyinteresting quest is, how did
you come to this work? Right?
You were like a trained singerand songwriter. Why choose kind
of this path for yourself? Ifthat's okay,

yeah. So this path kind of chose me in a lot of
ways, because when I was in mysongwriting degree, I did like a
business course, like an art,business arts course, and we had
to make a plan for the next fiveyears. And I it was in that
moment that I, like decided Iwanted to settle on teaching
singing, because I was stillwhat my focus teaching singing

(53:11):
to trans and disabled people,primarily because there are a
lot of great singing teachers inthe world, but very few with the
empathy and expertise that Ihave to teach these populations.
But they they're they don't havea lot of disposable income for
singing lessons, traditionally.
So I created a scholarshipprogram that I launched like
while I was in my songwritingdegree. It's called the right to

(53:32):
sing award, and I think I raisedlike $80,000 and it just
basically paid my salary so thatI could give free lessons away.
So I like, advertise, yeah, itwas amazing. I advertised for
donations through the community,and I advertised for applicants
as well. And fun fact, everybodywho received a scholarship was
both trans and disabled, whichin our community. But so through

(53:57):
that, the advertising, I think,I took out a couple Instagram
ads an organization here inMontreal called Project 10,
which services trans youth. Sounder 25 they reached out to me
and said, Hey, we see that youteach trans people voice stuff.
Would you come and do a workshopcalled Trans vocal exploration?
Because they had had a speechlanguage pathologist come in and

(54:19):
like, again, no shade to mybrothers and sisters and
siblings, and it's justdifferent. It's just sometimes
it's different. And they justweren't happy with this
particular SLP, because I thinkhe had, like, some more
prescriptive ideas about whatthe process would look like, and
they wanted somebody non binary,someone with a more expansive
idea of what it could look like.
And I was like, I've never donethis before, but it sounds like

(54:41):
everything I love, nerding outabout the voice and solving
interesting pedagogicalproblems. And trans people like,
Sign me up. Yeah, right. I didthat workshop for them, and then
I did it again in French, and Ithink I did it like, a couple
more times. And then wheneverthey had somebody who was
looking for private lessons,they would send them to me,
because I was, like, the oneperson they had on file, yeah.

(55:03):
And then I did a bunch of thesame workshop for another
organization and anotherorganization, you know, it just
kind of grew from there until,like, I turned around, and
everything I was doing wasgender affirming voice, and I
wasn't doing singing anymore.
And so that was when I made thedecision, like, Okay, I'm i,
this is what I do now. I betterstart a tick tock, because
that's where all the young transpeople are at. That is where
they're so this was in 2021 Ilaunched my tick tock, and I,

(55:27):
like, put out my first ticktock. I didn't really think
anything of it. I literallyrecorded it, like, off the.
Cuff, like, blah, blah, blah,you know. And it went viral
because it was during tiktoks,like warming period. There was,
like a moment in time when theywere growing the platform that
they would warm new creators. Sopush your content out really
far. And it was very easy togrow and go viral on the

(55:48):
platform if you were new at thattime. So I think I got like
10,000 followers in one weekend,like, something I had never seen
before in my life.

Was that overwhelming. Yes, as well.
Like, I hardly have, like, noteven 2000 followers on Instagram
already.

They're worth different Tiktok followers,
different Yes, but still a lot.
It was shocking. It was soshocking. I was overwhelmed. I
like, called my friend who hadalready gone viral on Tiktok,
and I was like, Please help me.
What's happening? It was so thatwas the moment I decided to
pivot into online courses. And Ieven told my friend, like, I

(56:28):
can't do a course. My value as ateacher is what I bring to the
individual. She was like, okay,like, you don't have to. But
then my wait list filled up, andI couldn't. And I thought, like,
trans people are on wait listsfor everything, and I don't want
to be that. And where's the end,right? Like, if I have this wait
list, do I raise my prices andraise my prices? No. So I

(56:51):
thought if I made a course, thenI could put all the like, 101,
information in there. It couldbe at a price that was, like,
very reasonable for how muchinformation, yes. And then my
idea was people would take that,and if they still had problems
or still had questions, theycould come to me after for
private lessons. Well, it didn'treally work out exactly that

(57:15):
way. But there was just it wasso popular that it like, was
like, Oh, this is what I do now,I guess. And so I actually just
retired that first course, like,three days I saw that, yeah, I
was kind of like, I don't know.
I was sad about it. You know, itwas like, the start of my new
life, and now it's over thatpart,

yeah, but you have all this other new courses
that are really exciting, andI'm assuming that you retired
that course because you feellike you really wanted to update
your content. Yes, yes.

So mix and match, in my heart, kind of replaced
trans vocal exploration, becauseTV was like a mixed course, so
anybody could take it, but itwas essentially the workshop I
gave for project 10, like in acourse, and there were no slides
like I had never heard of Canvawhen I made that course, and I'm

(58:04):
just a stronger communicator inthat medium now than I was when
I made the course, and it wasjust causing like problems
people to know which course totake. So it made sense to retire
it, but it was like, Thank youfor your service. Transmittal
exploration. And

makes sense to me, because it's like, the more
we do something, the morecomfortable we get with it, and
the more we learn. Andabsolutely, I'm a better speaker
now than I was 20 years ago, forsure, you know, and thankful to
all the people gave evaluations.
How do you because, right,that's how at least I was. Like,
I always say to my people, I doread those valuations. Please
send me feedback. I have tolisten and change accordingly.

(58:39):
How do you feel that this choseyou right? Because for a lot of
us, trans, non binary, gender,expensive folks, in a way, I
know people are the same. Howdid you choose, like, your
career? I was like, I don't knowthat I really chose it like,
just by virtue of who I am,like, I had a lot of queer
people and then trans people,even before I transitioned, that
neurodivergent people, I was,like, I don't know, maybe we

(59:02):
just all attract each other. Buteven professionally, like, how
do you feel about the fact that,in a way, because of your
identity and who you are, thiswork chose you.
Yeah. I have complicatedfeelings. Because, on the one
hand, I love my job. I think Ihave the best job in the world.

(59:22):
I forget cisgender people exist.
Frankly, I don't ever have totalk to I understand that
feeling, yes, yeah. I love likeI love running a business. I
love that I get to quicklyrespond to the needs of the
community, that there's no one,like, there's no it's not it
runs at my pace, you know? Yes.
So that's really wonderful. I doagain. I was listening to gender

(59:45):
reveal, and they were talkingabout how beautiful it is to
like be trans and not have tomonetize it. And so part of me
is like, what would that belike? I really wonder I don't
love, like being in the publiceye all the time, not that I'm
like, so popular or famous oranything, but, you know, I still

(01:00:06):
get some hate comments, which isnot so fun. I just wish trolls
would like get hobbies, like,let's bring hobbies back. 2025
you know, yes, go be outsideinstead of, like, harassing
people on social media,especially harassing trans
people on social media forexisting, yeah, really feel bad
for trolls, because you mustlive such an impoverished life

(01:00:27):
if you don't have other thingsto do with your precious life on
this earth. You know, like,learn to macrame, come on that
that islike, yeah, pick like. That is
surreal. Whenever somebodyleaves a high to a comment, I'm
like, I can just, like, deleteand block and just wish you well
on your journey. Because, like,I don't think about them, but
they're obviously thinking aboutme. It's so strange.

(01:00:50):
Yeah, I know this obsession withtrans folks and arresting trans
folks online, really, really,not great, but yes and, but it's
tricky, right? Because when youexist as a trans person,
especially in any pedagogical,educational context, it just
happens, in my experience, thatyou kind of get pushed a little

(01:01:11):
bit. And it's been reallyinteresting now that there is
more interest in disability. Imean, I've been writing about
disability and sexuality for 20years, but now that disability
piece, especially with thesexuality piece, gets asked more
and more, because finally,people are like, waking up a
little bit more, tad more todisability justice issues. And

(01:01:32):
the sad part is that there'sstill very little, very few
folks that talk about thatintersection of disability and
sexuality. But yeah, I don'tknow that it can be avoided.
Kind of,

Renée Yoxon (01:01:43):
yeah, it's tough. I mean, and I had already been in
the public eye for years like, Ithink that's one of the reasons
why, like, the combination ofnot only being a teacher but
being a content creator camequite naturally to me, because I
had released four albums beforeI did this.

Alex Iantaffi (01:01:57):
So along with a marketing career, and you are a
performer.

Exactly. I've been marketing. I've been writing
newsletters. I'd been bloggingbefore. I used to, like, run a
blog with ads on it, you know,like that related to music
before. So, like, everything inmy life kind of prepared me for
this career. And when I lookback at all the different things
I did and I've done in all thedegrees that I, yeah, like
everything kind of was leadingme towards this. So it really, I

(01:02:24):
really feel like I'm in myvocation now, you know, like
I've done my life's work, andit's, it's beautiful. That is
beautiful.

I love that.
Well, you know, one question Idon't wear I want to be
respectful of your time, eventhough I feel like I could talk
with you for like, another twohours. I want Don't worry much,
as I would like to. But one ofthe things I've been asking
other trends, the minor gender,expensive folks and guests on
the show, is like, how do youfind joy at the moment, because,

(01:02:53):
you know, we are seeing kind ofanother wave of really intense
anti transphobic sentimentseverywhere. I think so, how do
you find like joy or comfort orpleasure in your life nowadays,
even just one small thing thatyou feel comfortable sharing
with listening?

Yeah, absolutely.
So I find joy in my goals andhobbies, and this is why I
always say, bring back hobbiesfor the trolls, because I would
be nothing without the thingsthat make my life well rounded.
So I'm a runner. I run like,three times a week, and that's
very challenging for me as aperson with chronic pain. Yeah,
do it real slow and carefully,and I did, in fact, learn to

(01:03:34):
macrame in the pandemic, and Igo to my little movie once a
week like, that's the othergreat thing about running this
business is that I get to set myown hours. So what brings me joy
is having, like, a beautifulwork life balance and creating a
job that, like it, lives with myvalues, you know. So I stopped
working at like 334, o'clock,usually with exceptions for

(01:03:55):
wonderful interviews. Of course,I don't work on Fridays usually,
so it's a four day work week,which I want for everybody, and
that allows me to do things likeplay the piano in the evenings
and cook beautiful food formyself, and see my friends and
help my friends and and go toSpanish class, and I, you know,
I have a lot, like, a rich lifeoutside of my work. So that's

(01:04:17):
what keeps me sort of groundedat the moment.

I love that I feel inspired. I always joke
that I have a terrible boss, andthat terrible boss is me. Don't
do that, I know, but it's sohard to, like, unlearn, like in
academia, you just leave andbreathe academia and so it's so
hard to learn. Just askyourself, the next time you want
to work late, what would Renéedo in this moment?
I am totally going to ask myselfthat, okay, I'm just gonna be

(01:04:45):
totally inspired by Rene'sapproach to like, being entrepreneur.

You know what I've been doing lately? Actually, at

3:00-3 (01:04:52):
30 I turned my computer all the way off, which I didn't
used to do. I used to let itrun, and I would feel guilty I
hadn't turned my computer off intwo weeks. Now it is off every
night from the time I finishedwork until the next day

that that and the sound journal like I'm taking
just a little nuggets with me.
Thanks, Renee, you're sowelcome, Alex. Oh, well. And
then the question to ask, Oh, myguess at the end, is there
anything we haven't talked aboutthat you were hoping we would
talk about in this interview today?

You know, I think we covered it all actually,

that's amazing.
Well, I don't know about youlisteners, but I'm taking so
many wonderful nuggets, likeit's okay to be. Playful with my
voice. I'm looking forward toexperiment with the sound
journal. Also, one of myintentions for 2025 is to take
one of your classes. Because I'mlike, Oh my gosh, I've been
wanting to, and I almost got theclass that you were retiring,
and I was like, I will have zerotime to do this, because I'm a

(01:05:49):
terrible boss. 2025 it willhappen. I love you so dear
listeners, or if you're watchingon YouTube, viewers, I hope that
you take away some nuggets ofwisdom from all the beautiful
insights that Renée has given ustoday. And thank you, Renée, for
spending time with genderstories today. I appreciate you

(01:06:11):
so much.

Thank you so much for having you on. It's been a
genuine pleasure.

Oh, my God, this has been so fun. All right, dear
listeners and viewers, take careof your voice and play with it
and see if you can find joy inyour beautiful vocal expression,
and until next time you.

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.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Hey Jonas!

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Finding Our Voices with Gender-Affirming Voice Teacher Renée Yoxon

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