October 7, 2024 • 50 mins
MAEVE CHEVONNE DUVALLY
Maeve is a transgender multi-cultural communications specialist, storyteller and LGBTQ+ advocate. She spent the bulk of her career as a journalist and corporate spokesperson, most recently at Goldman Sachs.
After a lifetime of working for large companies, she now consults for corporations and other organizations on communications strategy and diversity, equity, and inclusion. Maeve also mentors transgender people, is a public speaker and a frequent subject of press interviews on LGBTQ+ workplace issues.
She was a managing director in corporate communications at Goldman Sachs over an 18-year career. Prior to joining Goldman, Maeve worked in media relations at Merrill Lynch.
Before that, she was a financial journalist and editor at Bridge News for nearly 15 years with stints in Tokyo, Washington D.C. and New York. She spent ten formative years in Japan in the 1980s and is fluent in the language.
Maeve serves on the boards of GLAAD; the Knight-Bagehot Fellowship, a journalism non-profit; and Connecticut-based LGBTQ+ health provider Anchor Health Initiative.
She earned a B.A. in English from Providence College in 1983 and was a Knight-Bagehot Fellow at Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism School in 1994.
A published author, her memoir, “Maeve Rising,” debuted through Sibylline Press in August 2023.
https://www.instagram.com/becomingmaeve/
https://www.maeveduvally.com/
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Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
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Episode Transcript
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Alex Iantaffi (00:36):
Hello gender stories, listeners and watchers,
if you're watching on YouTubenow, I as ever I am excited and
delighted, because I always havethe best guests, and today I'm
really delighted to be here withMaeve Chevonne Duvally. Maeve is
a transgender, multiculturalcommunication specialist,
(00:56):
storyteller and LGBTQ plusadvocate. She spent the bulk of
her career as a journalist andcorporate spokesperson, most
recently at Goldman Sachs. Aftera lifetime of working for large
companies, she now consults forcorporations and other
organizations on communicationstrategy and diversity, equity
(01:17):
and inclusion. Maeve alsomentors transgender people. Is a
public speaker and a frequentsubject of press interviews on
LGBTQ plus workplace issues. Shewas a managing director in
corporate communications atGoldman Sachs over an 18 years
career prior to joining Goldman,Maeve worked in Media Relations
(01:38):
at Merrill Lynch. Before that,she was a financial journalist
and editor of bridge news fornearly 15 years with teens in
Tokyo, Washington, DC and NewYork. She spent 10 formative
years in Japan in the 1980s andis fluent in the language. Maeve
serves on the board of GLAAD,the night budget fellowship, a
(01:59):
journalism nonprofit and connectconnectica based LGBTQ plus
health provider and incorrectHealth Initiative. She earned a
BA in English from ProvidenceCollege in 1983 and was a ninth
budget Fellow at ColumbiaUniversity Graduate School in
Journalism School in 1994 theypublished author a memoir made
(02:20):
rising debuted through siblingpress in August 2023 and it's a
really wonderful book. Pleasecheck it out. We'll talk about
it throughout the episode, butthere will also be a link for
you to order the book in theepisode description. So welcome,
Maeve. So wonderful to have youhere in gender stories. Thank
(02:42):
you for making time to talk withme today. I really appreciate it.
Maeve Duvally (02:47):
Thanks very much for having me, Alex. I'm looking
forward to the conversation, andthank you very much for the plug
for the book. I'll take any plugI can get
Alex Iantaffi (02:55):
I know what's that? What that's like as an
author, we have to let the worldknow, let people know that we
got books out. I understandthat, and also it's a really
wonderful book. And wheneverpeople write a memoir, I feel
it's such a vulnerable, personalprocess. And I'm always really
curious about what moved you tokind of write a memoir,
Maeve Duvally (03:17):
sure? Well, part of my my life was already
exposed when I came out atGoldman Sachs, because I worked
in corporate communications, Ihad a lot of relationships with
reporters, and when we told thereporters that I worked most
closely with that I was going tobe coming out, a reporter for
the New York Times decided towrite a story about me. So you
(03:41):
know, my very what could havebeen a very kind of private
coming out experience at GoldmanSachs actually became very
public. And when I in theaftermath of that story, the
most surprising thing that Ilearned was that there are a lot
of transgender people out therein various stages of coming out,
(04:03):
or transgender people inuniversities who may be out
already but are worried aboutcoming out in corporate America
who wanted to talk to me aboutMy experience and share their
experience with me. So I justdeveloped this, this whole new,
(04:24):
this whole new thing to fill upmy life of talking to
transgender people, mentoringtransgender people, and I
realized there's a thirst forpeople to tell their story. So,
you know, I wanted to tell mystory so that other people in
the LGBTQ plus communitycommunity could identify with
them and to take something fromit. But also, you know, there's
(04:47):
a lot of people out there whohave never had any contact with
transgender people. And youknow, unfortunately, human
beings when they don't knowsomething about somebody who's
different from them, you know,maybe they're a little bit
skeptical. They say they don't,they don't really like that. But
when they have exposure to tothings, when they learn stories,
(05:08):
when then they themselves canlearn and identify with things,
then you know that that tends tohelp people become more
comfortable with people that aredifferent than them, in this
case, transgender people. So itwas both to to educate and to
help other people in the LGBTQplus community.
Alex Iantaffi (05:28):
Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense to me. You
know? I think we do reallyconnect for storytelling as
humans. You know, it kind ofhelps us humanize each other and
find those points of connectionswith one another. I want to come
back to your memoir, but I wantto say for a moment with that
process of a very privatejourney, in some ways, right,
(05:48):
that sure, there are kind ofpublic aspects right for all of
us, trans folks, there is thatmoment of like, telling people,
presenting in a different way,right? Taking all those very
vulnerable risks, which areoften very private, but for some
folks like yourself, thatprocess becomes very visible
early on. What was that like toadd that kind of a little bit in
(06:10):
the public eye? And I also wantto talk about the corporate
America piece, but let's talkabout the visibility piece,
because it can be a double edgedsword, at least in my
experience, that can be amazingkind of support and connection
with community, like you said,and with people who are really
encouraged and find reallysupport for your story. But you
(06:31):
know, there are also people whoare maybe not as positive, and
so I'm just kind of wonderingwhat that was like to be thrown
into kind of the public eye, soto speak, so early on in your
process.
Maeve Duvally (06:44):
Yeah, that's a great question, Alex. If I take
a step back and kind of look atthe whole arc of my coming out
experience, I realized I wastransgender in October of 2018
and I didn't come out at workuntil May of 2019 so there was a
seven or eight month periodwhere I was out of my social
life, but I wasn't out in mywork life. And my work life is a
(07:09):
very big part of my life. Whenyou work at an investment bank,
you're working you're in theoffice, 5060, hours a week and
you're always on call, so it wasa big part of my life. And you
know, I found every step alongthe way of my coming out
process, whenever I didsomething new, I had fear. And
(07:30):
why do queer people have fearbefore they they do something,
it's because they're worriedthat they're not going to be
accepted. And, you know, everytime I did something new, every
time, like the first time I puton makeup, the first time I
bought women's clothing, Ialways had fear, and I fought
(07:52):
through that, and I had theexperience. And after I had the
experience, I was generallyokay. And I find that my coming
out experience right afterMemorial Day in 2019 at Goldman
Sachs was was exactly the samething, although it was just
bigger, it was a bigger stage,and I knew the New York Times
(08:14):
was going to be covering it.
They trail. They shadowed me forthe first three days of me being
out at Goldman Sachs. And yeah,I was very, I was very fearful
of whether my co workers wouldwould accept me or not. But, you
know, there, there's fear, butthere's also, at some point, I
knew I couldn't I couldn't keepmyself bottled up any longer. I
(08:39):
just had to come out. So thatneed and that desire, that
intensity to come out,completely overwhelmed any
misgivings or fear that I had,and, you know, it, it allowed me
to have a very good coming outexperience. And you know, I was
(09:00):
very relieved as the day woreon, as I saw that my coworkers
were very supportive andaccepting. That
Alex Iantaffi (09:08):
is really wonderful to hear that there was
that support. And it's, it's sorelatable, right? As you were
talking, I was thinking, I'mlike, Oh yeah, I remember that
fear of like, doing the thingfor the first time, right, going
out with the binder for me forthe first time, right? Telling
the first person that usedifferent pronouns, that's it's
always really scary. But themore you do it, I don't know,
(09:30):
for me, at least, kind of themore those experiences of like,
oh, actually, people aresupportive. Kind of helped. And
like you said, that overwhelmingneed, almost, I would say, to be
ourselves, kind of just trampsthe fear in a lot of ways. But
yeah,
Maeve Duvally (09:47):
and then, and then, I'm sure you experienced
this, Alex, somewhere along theway, I pretty much lost all my
fear. And it's like I have theright. This is me. I have the
right to be here. I have nothingto be afraid of. And you know
what, if those people don'taccept me, that's their problem.
It's not my problem, right?
Alex Iantaffi (10:08):
Yes, oh my god, I'm so excited that you said
that, because I was going to askyou, actually, my next question
was, when was there a momentwhere the fear dissipated or got
smaller? So I'm so glad you saidthat, and I love that you said
that because I often talk tofriends, but also clients,
because I'm a therapist abouthow you know other people
perceive us, or what they thinkof us as trans folks, is really
(10:30):
outside of our control. At theend of the day, I. There's
nothing we can do to control howother people perceive us, what
they think of us, but what's inour control is here, right, in
our romantic selves, beingvulnerable, showing up for we
are, and really taking thatstep. Because what's the
alternative? Right? It's muchworse in my at least in my
(10:52):
experience, than not doing allof
Maeve Duvally (10:54):
that, you know, incidentally, and I always try
when I talk about educating nonLGBTQ plus people. I'm, I'm I'm
thinking about teaching themmore about transgender people so
they're more comfortable aboutaround us. But I'm also one of
(11:16):
the things I'm also after is toeducate that in some ways, our
experience isn't that differentto the experience of any person
in the wall in the world.
Because if you think about it,you know, life is a transition.
Everybody's going throughtransitions. Our experience is a
little bit more noticeable,because a lot of times we change
(11:36):
our appearance, we change ourname, we might go through
surgeries. But, you know, lifeis a transition. Everybody's
transitioning. Everybody'strying to kind of get to this
idealized version of self, whichwhich is a lifelong experience.
And I want people to know, fromthat perspective, we're really
(11:59):
no different than anybody else.
Alex Iantaffi (12:04):
I love that you framed it that way. I so agree.
I really, I often talk abouthow, like all of us, kind of
change throughout our lifejourney, right? And even our
relationship with gender, evencisgender people change how they
present their gender. Usually,you know, I often say you don't
present your gender in terms ofexpression, the same as you do a
five years old as you do a like30 or 40 or 80. I mean, maybe,
(12:27):
but most people kind of changeand experiment with what makes
us feel comfortable, right,whether we're trans or cis. We
also age, our voice changes aswe age. I was talking to Renee
yachtson about trans folks andboys, but also we were saying,
but everybody's voice changesalso as they age, right, not
just trans folks. And so I thinkthat giving people ways to plug
(12:51):
in and see our existence is notlike you said, not that
different. We just have aslightly different journey when
it comes to gender identity, butit's just really a deepening
into ourselves and and you didall of that in corporate
America, which is its own world.
And I have to admit that, youknow, I worked in state
universities, nonprofits, butnever worked in corporate
America, but I have friends whodo, and my perception is that it
(13:13):
can be a very kind ofprescriptive in some ways world,
right? There are certainexpectations in terms of
existing in corporate America,like how you present dress
codes, right, even even thevolume of work, right? And the
volume of the way you need to beavailable, especially in certain
(13:35):
roles. And so what was that liketo just come out in in in that
corporate environment,specifically where, you know,
and I might have amisperception, because, like I
said, it's not a world I walkedin personally, I'm just really
curious about what thatexperience was like for you in
that world, Sure,
Maeve Duvally (13:57):
great question.
And you know, in the bigcorporate world there, there is
definitely rigidity, and youreferred to the rigidity. But I
do believe, notwithstandingwhat's going on now in the
United States socially andpolitically, that there, there
are certain sectors of oureconomy and big finances, one
big tech, entertainment, luxurygoods. Those are areas of of the
(14:23):
United States economy that Ithink are fairly open to
diversity and again,notwithstanding what's going on
right now, they still are opento diversity, and I believe they
honestly believe that being openand welcome to as many different
(14:46):
kinds of people as possible is agood business decision, because
it makes it just, it's math,right? It increases the pool of
available candidates, and thediversity of views and opinions
that diverse people bring to thetable also yields better
(15:06):
decisions, because you have moreinputs going into that. So I
think a lot of places incorporate America recognize
that, and they are firmly behinddiversity and inclusion. I do
think, because what's going onright now, a lot of those
companies are probably going tobecome a little bit quieter for
(15:26):
the time being, about that. Butthat doesn't that doesn't mean.
That they still don't see thatas part of their core value,
absolutely,
Alex Iantaffi (15:39):
and it's been really interesting to see as
well, which companies or whichwhich corporations have not
gotten quieter, and which onesfeel the need to appeal maybe to
a broader sector of thepopulation and maybe are a
little bit quieter in theirsupport. It's definitely a very
interesting moment right now,talking about this moment in
(16:00):
time, how are you accessing somekind of joy and support for
yourself? I've been reallyasking all of my trans or minor
or gender expensive guests, likein this rise of anti transphobic
sentiment, how are you stillaccessing like joy and comfort
and support right now, even evenif it's in the smallest of ways,
(16:21):
sure,
Maeve Duvally (16:23):
there's a lot of inputs into that question. So
yes, let me see if I can handleall of them. First, I have to
acknowledge my privilege. I'mwhite. I worked at Goldman
Sachs, and I live in the Chelseasection of New York, which I
think is arguably one of thebest places in the world to be
(16:44):
an out transgender person. Andso I don't have the problems
that a young trans child insomewhere in the South has I
just don't have those. My lifeis, my life is really, really
good. You know, I talked aboutit in the memoir. I was an
active alcoholic for most of mylife, and in addition, I was
(17:09):
very confused, very unhappy. Sothe life I have right now is so,
so much better than that. Itdoesn't take very much to make
me happy. And I know a lot oftransgender people aren't as
fortunate as I am, but that justyou know, all of our experiences
are different, but every, everyday for me, I experience queer
(17:36):
joy. I'm just I'm just happy tobe alive. And since I found
writing that that allows me anoutlet to express some of that.
And you know, as someone who waswas an active alcoholic and
wasn't very happy, I was verymuch in my head. I had all this
(17:56):
stuff going on in my head, andwriting provides me an outlet to
kind of take some all the stuffthat was in my head that maybe
at the time, wasn't reallyconstructive to me being a
happy, productive person, but touse it in a positive way.
Alex Iantaffi (18:14):
And I want to thank you for sharing that. I
want to go back to the writing.
I think you made such animportant point, which is, when
we come into ourselves, we astrans folks, we usually do feel
better generally in our life,right? I love that you talked
about accessing queer joy, forexample. And so let's talk about
kind of what happens sometimesbefore we come out, which is
(18:35):
often people do struggle withalcoholism, substance use,
suicidality, we know all ofthose, rate depression, anxiety,
all of those are higher in kindof trans communities, which
makes sense given what's goingon in the world. But I'm
interested like in your own kindof struggle, if you like, which
you do write about in the memoiras well, with kind of alcoholism
(18:59):
and depression, and if you feelokay, to share a little bit
about what that time before,kind of coming into yourself.
What was that like, in terms ofthose thoughts in your head, the
maybe self medicating foralcohol, or, yeah,
Maeve Duvally (19:20):
sure, this is a topic I'm very, very happy to
talk about because I'm verypassionate about it. And for me,
my my sobriety and havingrealized my gender identity and
who I really am. They're very,very intertwined, and my
experience is a little bitdifferent from a lot of
(19:40):
transgender people. I didn'treally have any conscious
knowledge that I was transgenderuntil I got sober in January of
2018 and I realized I wastransgender rather suddenly in
October of 2018 so you know, itonly happened after I got sober,
and I don't think that's anyaccident. Now, when I look back
(20:04):
at it, and this is actually onereason why I wrote, I wrote,
wrote my memoir, it's, it'sbecause I now felt a compulsion
to go back and look at my lifenow that I was sober, now that I
know who I am as a sober, outtransgender person, and see what
(20:25):
my life looked like, and itlooked very different from what
I thought my life was when I waskind of in the midst of midst of
all of that. And I. The natureof my gender dysphoria was I
hated everything masculine aboutmyself, but I hated myself,
(20:45):
period. So I thought hating myeverything masculine about
myself was just part of mygeneral hatred for myself. For
example, I'll tell you that fromabout the age of 10 until the
time I came out in 2018 I sothat's a period of over 40
(21:06):
years. I didn't look at myselfin the mirror. I couldn't look
at myself in the mirror. So youknow, that's the type of hatred
I felt for myself, and so I andI do believe that this truth
that I was transgender wasalways in me. The alcohol just
hit. It, suppressed it, kept itdown, prevented it from coming
(21:30):
out. And once I got sober, itopened it opened me up to the
possibility that I could reallyfind out who I am
Alex Iantaffi (21:39):
that makes so much sense to me, and also
relate to that sense of, like,just hating yourself. I know I
did a lot of work on just, like,just accepting myself. I thought
it was like internalizedmisogyny, and I just had to
accept that, you know, that Iwas a woman in air quotes, and
that's how I was born, and itwas just internalized misogyny.
And then I was like, this is notinternalized misogyny. But, you
(22:01):
know, it took me, like, decadesto get to that point, and I
think, I don't know, I thinkwe're kind of similar
generation, potentially the samegeneration that there were no
role models, like, I didn't knowany trans people when I was a
child, right? Personally, likethere wasn't any representation
on TV in the 70s and 80s when Iwas and so I think it is
(22:23):
different, also for folks whoare kind of over 40 or 50,
compared to kids who are comingout as like 1415 nowadays, where
there are a lot more options.
You know, my oldest is alwayslike, Oh, if it's not a queer TV
show or a movie I don't want towatch. And I was like, how
amazing that you have thechoice, right? That's not it was
all subtext, I think, in when Iwas growing up. And so I don't
(22:44):
know if you also notice thosedifferences with younger trans
folks who are coming theimportance of representation.
You know what I mean? And, yeah,
Maeve Duvally (22:54):
and I wonder, Alex, if you watch the Netflix
documentary disclosure, oh,yeah, and, and so, like, it
showed all these shows that Igrew up with, and I had, I had
no knowledge I was transgender.
The word transgender didn'texist. But you know that show,
like showed movies like psychowhere the main character stabs
people, and the people talkingabout it were saying that, you
(23:18):
know, you know, the message hereis, if, if a man puts on a wig
and pretends he's a woman, thenhe's going to become a serial
killer. And, you know, all thosemessages were embedded in a lot
of shows and films andeverything. And I watched that
documentary, and I go, wow, wow,that's what we grew up with,
(23:38):
Alex, right, exactly.
Alex Iantaffi (23:41):
And we internalized all those messages
that somehow to be trans is tolike, to be deceiving, to be
dangerous, to be poor, a figureof fun. And I know even more so
for trans feminine folks, forsure, you know, and, but, but
that I don't know. For me, itdidn't even come into my
consciousness until, like, my30s. You know, that was like,
(24:02):
maybe that's something here,right? And then it still too
committed to understand whatthat was. And, and I love how
you talked about, once you stopsuppress, you know, in a way,
suppressing those feelings withalcohol, that you're like, Oh,
there I am, right? And there'sthis moment of recognition, what
was the most surprising thingsfor you in this process, whether
(24:27):
it's a process of coming out orthe process of writing your
memoir, which is kind of lookingback at your life in a way from
this different position?
Maeve Duvally (24:42):
Yeah, I think what most surprised me was when
I went back and looked at mylife
Alex Iantaffi (24:49):
and wrote my memoir,
Maeve Duvally (24:52):
there were a lot of clues as to the person I
really was. I just at the timethey were happening. I just
didn't choose to see them thatway. I can give you, like, you
know, one concrete example.
There were like three years in arow when I was in maybe Junior
(25:17):
High School, where forHalloween, I dressed up as some
type of women character, andthere was one year I dressed up
as a half man half womancharacter, which is wow. And.
When I look back at that, I go,Hmm, so you know, I do, you
know, I kind of, when I startedthe process, I kind when I was
(25:41):
talking to my therapist aboutthis, and Alex, you said you're
a therapist, yeah, so I'll givea plug for your industry. So
anybody, anybody who istransgender and just trying to
come to grips with it, I thinkthe first step always needs to
be therapy. It's, it's verycomplex. You have very complex
feelings, and it's really,really helpful to talk to a
(26:01):
professional who has experiencewith that to help you. I know, I
know I needed it. And so youknow when, I talked through all
this stuff in therapy and when Iwrote my book, I just really
realized that my transgenderhistory, which I didn't really
(26:22):
think I had much of atransgender history, I do have a
transgender history. I just wasnot able to connect it to the
person I am now, until I didsome introspective work.
Alex Iantaffi (26:36):
I love that, because sometimes we, you know,
I went for a similar thinglooking back, I was like, Oh, I
see things very differently,right? It's like, connect the
dots almost. And I love what yousaid about also therapy being
about support. I think so manytrans folks, understandably,
because of the history of ourmental health field see going to
(26:56):
therapy as part of gatekeepingin their transition process. And
I'm always like, it can be, butit doesn't have to be. It's I
think that everybody needstherapy through any life
transition, including gender,you know. And so I love hearing
that it was supportive. And
Maeve Duvally (27:13):
when I talked about, excuse me when I talked
about transition being alifelong experience, a
transition is self discovery andself actualization, and every
human being goes through that.
So to the extent you can have aprofessional help you with that,
self discovery and that leads toself actualization, you becoming
(27:35):
the person you were always meantto be. That's common to every
single human being, and it'sit's really the most important
thing that we do in our lives.
Absolutely,
Alex Iantaffi (27:51):
it's kind of finding ourselves, finding who
we are, funding our values. Ithink it's so, so incredibly
important. And and I know youkind of went through this
process of writing your memoir,and that kind of came out last
year, but are you still writing?
And if so, what are you writing?
Because I you obviously have apassion for writing, and you
(28:12):
talked about that process beingsomething that it's really
helpful for you. So I'm curiousabout whether you have other
writing projects in the in theworks right now.
Maeve Duvally (28:21):
I always wanted to write all my life, and for a
while I was a journalist, I gotto do writing. It's very
different from kind of a memoiror writing fiction, but I just
couldn't do it while I was stilldrinking and didn't really know
who I was, and I just kind ofpoured out once I came out and I
(28:43):
got the memoir out. But youknow, in retrospect, I needed to
do the memoir, but the memoirwas a stepping stone to fiction.
I'd really like to writefiction, and I just finished my
first novel. I've handed it tomy agent, and he's going to try
and sell it. It's a literarycoming of age story with a trans
(29:04):
main character. It's set inJapan and mass Cape Cod
Massachusetts, both places thatI love and there's a lot of
Catholicism in there. So I guesson one level, it's, it's still
dealing with some of the issuesthat I dealt with in my memoir.
(29:26):
I guess I haven't got all thatstuff fully out of my system,
but I'm very excited. It's, it'sa different creative process
writing fiction than a memoir,but it was very, very fulfilling
and satisfying, and I hope I canget it published and get it in
front of a lot of people.
Alex Iantaffi (29:47):
Yeah, I can't wait to see this book out in the
world. And I was like, Oh, I'malready into it, like, already
kind of across two countriesdealing with Catholicism. We
brought up Catholic as well.
Benny Jones, I was, but
Maeve Duvally (30:01):
yes, yes, I was.
And, you know, I actually have aI have a respect for organized
religion. I consider myself aspiritual person. And to the
extent organized religion is apathway to spirituality. I have
a great deal of respect, but forme as someone who had a lot of
self hatred when I was going upthe Catholic Church of the late
(30:24):
60s and early 70s had a focus onhell and sin, and that was a.
Combination with, with how Iviewed myself, it really was a
bad combination. And there's alot, there's a lot of good and
organized religion, you know,the, you know, there's, there's
a problem, obviously, with, withintolerance. And I have a big
(30:46):
issue with that, that, you know,many religions around the world
don't accept LGBTQ plus people,and that's, that's a rotten
shame. And I hope that changes,yeah,
Alex Iantaffi (31:03):
and I love what you said, also about like, it's
how we interpret it, right?
Like, same, when I was broughtup in the 70 there was a lot of
emphasis on hell and punishmentand, you know, sin, and I
remember getting a lot of in alot of trouble, when I said, I
don't think the hell exists. Ithink it's just humans not
feeling connection with God.
(31:24):
And, you know, the Nan's going,the hell's absolutely exist. You
know, that's blasphemous, youknow. But I think that we just
see those, we take thosebeautiful spiritual concept, and
then we put those human filtersthrough it, you know, and that's
when you get a lot of iterate, alot of bigotry, a lot of
smallness, where spirit could beso expansive, you know, and so
(31:47):
much more encompassing, youknow, when we look at it in a
different way, Oh, that could beall out of rabbit hole.
Maeve Duvally (31:54):
It certainly can.
It certainly can.
Alex Iantaffi (31:58):
But you talked about your love for writing
fiction, and this is a literaryfiction work. Is that kind of
the genre that you're mostinterested in or excited to
write about? Or do you have afavorite genre when it comes to
fiction and what you want towrite in the future? Maybe,
yeah, I
Maeve Duvally (32:16):
already started book number three, and I think
literary fiction is probablygoing to be my primary vehicle.
I have written a kind of a transdystopian sci fi short story
that I hope to sell as well. Andyou know, science fiction's
science fiction is a lot of funbecause you get to create your
(32:38):
own universe with its own laws.
And yeah, that that's that's alot of fun, so I might jump
around. But literary fictionnovels, I think that's going to
be my medium, and hopefully Ican make some money off it,
which is kind of hard to do.
It's hard to make, make a livingof being a writer. If I could do
(33:03):
it, that's all I would do. Iwould just write.
Alex Iantaffi (33:06):
I hear that, yes, if I also, if I could make a
living as a writer, I would justwrite. I have a few non fiction
books out, but like you said,it's not usually books don't
bring that much income, but whata pleasure it is to write them
and go through the process, atleast for me, right? It's a bit
like the need of coming out. Forme, that's like the need to
write, right? It's just like,it's hard to kind of not do that
(33:29):
when, when you're passionateabout writing,
Unknown (33:32):
what do
Alex Iantaffi (33:34):
you have, like, a favorite book or TV show at the
moment, or, like just media thatyou've been consuming? I'm
always curious about whatwriters read or watch or listen
to, yeah, anything that's kindof sparking that creative or
spirit, or just nurturing thatcreative spirit in you right now
Maeve Duvally (33:56):
or in the past?
Well, I don't really, I don'thave a TV I don't really watch
TV. And, you know, in in oursociety, that's, that's a
problem because you go out toeat with a group of people, um,
what, what do? What doeseveryone want to talk about?
What they're watching on TV? Sothat's always, that's always a
problem for me. So I really, Ireally read a lot. And you know,
(34:18):
if I could make a living fromwriting my my kind of second job
would be as a proselytizer ofthe power of reading and when
you when you publish a book, yourealize the economics of
publishing are just very, verychallenging. I read a statistic,
(34:41):
I think was in The New YorkTimes, that 60% of Americans
have not read a book forpleasure in the last year. And I
find that very disappointing.
And obviously I'm biased, butum, what reading does that
(35:01):
television doesn't do. It allowsyou to activate your
imagination, so you are the onein your mind, bringing the world
that's on these pages alive. SoI'm just, I, I love, I'm a
preacher for for the power ofwriting and reading. So I read a
lot. And one of my favoriteauthors, I lived in Japan for a
(35:22):
long time, and one of myfavorite authors is Haruki
Murakami, who is, is a verypopular writer. And I really
like, I really like some. OfJapanese modern fiction, they
have a lot of magical realism.
So, you know, they'll, they'llhave the real world, and then
they'll kind of have like these,these parallel worlds right
(35:44):
beside the real world wherelike, weird stuff happens. And I
actually had that in my memoir,and I have a lot of that in my
novel. I love that style. AndMurakami uses very big, bold,
powerful metaphors and similes,which, which I like as well. So
he's, he's one of my favoritewriters.
Alex Iantaffi (36:08):
Yeah, that makes sense. I love magical realism
too. In the Yeah, I love thatstyle. And sometimes I wonder, a
lot of trans folks and transauthors I talk to really love
kind of either magical realismor science fiction or fantasy,
kind of just that element wherethere's almost like Reality
(36:29):
Plus. And to me, makes sense,right? Because, in a way, our
lives are a little bit RealityPlus, like we have to match in
ourselves sometimes before wefully come into being as trans
folks, and so I don't know. Ijust think that there's a lot of
us are really attracted to somejust something more than just
the reality of the day to dayworld. If that makes
Maeve Duvally (36:49):
sense. In my in my short story, what I did was
in the science fiction so shortstory, I could talk about it for
ages, but really quickly, Italked about a medical
advancement that allowedtransgender people to to
procreate and through Evolution,transgender people become kind
(37:13):
of the superior people insociety, and they begin to
control society, and they'reenlightened for a while, but
then they kind of revert back tobasic human nature and oppressed
non transgender people. So it'skind of allegorical and
satirical, but I think it's thattype of stuff is interesting,
(37:37):
that change of perspective,
Alex Iantaffi (37:38):
absolutely. I'm a big fan also of ambitopia,
right? There's like this utopia.
But is it utopia, or isactually, is utopia? I really
think that's possible. And youknow, that kind of space between
utopia and dystopia is alwaysfascinating, yes, well,
Maeve Duvally (37:53):
it's very interesting.
Alex Iantaffi (37:54):
It's just very rich, right? I think that's
where humanity is between utopiaand dystopia. That's where we
live, isn't it so messy? Oh, Ifeel like I could talk with you
for a long time. I'm justlooking at my little list to
see. I was like, oh, what werewe gonna talk about? I don't
know. I kind of forgot all thequestions and went with the
beautiful conversation we'rehaving. Well, we talked about
(38:17):
the most surprising thing wasthere anything that you know as
you're writing, as you're kindof embracing your life as you in
the last few years, right?
Anything about yourself that,apart from gender, of course,
that you've also discovered thatwas maybe new or unexpected or
maybe that you couldn't fullyembrace before, right like so
(38:41):
apart from the gender piece,sometimes I find that I don't
know, for example, as I've gonethrough my own gender journey,
I've been really embracing mycreativity more, which is
something I was told I wasn'tvery good at growing up. Right
now, I'm like, well, actually,art is just something that you
feel compelled to do as anartist. It's not about being
(39:01):
good, and of course, you canimprove. You can study. But
right? So, were there anyaspects of yourself besides
gender that had also been maybepushed aside in your life?
Maeve Duvally (39:13):
Sure. That's an interesting question. And
obviously, once you kind of areopen to and embark on the
adventure of self discovery andself actualization, just as soon
as you feel like you getsomeplace, something else kind
of comes up. And so, you know,not surprisingly well, I was an
(39:35):
active alcoholic and a veryconfused and unhappy person. I
was very introverted for most ofmy life. I was very isolated,
spent a lot of time alone, andso, you know, once I, once I
came, got sober and came out, Irealized I, you know, I, I
(39:56):
didn't have to be that way.
However, I, you know, I've, I'vecome to believe that while, um,
my happiness can be manifestedin in maybe more an externally,
I smile more, I laugh more. Inever smiled him laughter most
of my life. But you know what,just given the person who I am,
(40:17):
I am not ever going to be thelife of the party type of
person. And there was a part ofme early on who said, you know,
I want to be that person, thatexuberant person, that every.
Buddy talks about they'reallowed and but you know what?
I've come to realize that that'sjust not me, and I can evolve a
(40:39):
little bit to be a moreexuberant person, but I I have
some there's some raw materialsthat are me that's not going to
ever allow me to be that person.
So what type of person withinthe parameters of who I am, can
I be? So I want to be a littlebit more outgoing, but, you
(41:01):
know, I've kind of decided that,you know, I want to be the kind
of person who's thoughtful whenI speak people really listen to
what I say, and I want to be thekind of person who projects
calmness and serenity, and whenpeople around me, they feel more
calm and serene and hopeful. SoI guess my message is that I
(41:29):
think at least for me, that youit's, it is possible to change
who you are, but to and and actdifferently and behave
differently in accordance withwho you want to be. But there
are some you're somewhat limitedby your raw material. So
Alex Iantaffi (41:52):
it's,
Maeve Duvally (41:54):
it's a process figuring out how that manifests
itself in your life, and that'ssomething I really think about a
lot. If that makes sense, it
Alex Iantaffi (42:05):
does. It makes complete sense to me, at least I
feel like, you know, in a way,it's, it sounds like it's part
of that deeper acceptance ofyourself, but also the idea of,
like, what do I want to put intothe world? Right? It's like, if
we co create the world, whatI've been thinking a lot about,
that actually, as the world doeswhat it does, like, how do I
(42:28):
want to show up? What do I wantto put out in the world? What
kind of person do I want to be?
And I love what you said about Iwant to be a person that's like,
calm and just like, reallypeople can connect with and talk
with, and kind of it's okay notto be like the super loud,
extroverted life of the party. Ithink there's a lot of value we
put on extroverts in our world,but there's a lot of value in
(42:49):
being introverted, or what's theambivert when you can do a
little bit of both. But yes,that makes a lot of sense to me.
And I think that it makes senseto me that once you come into
yourself in every way, you'realso finding those parts of
yourself, oh so beautiful, youknow, like I could keep talking
(43:10):
with you, but I want to berespectful of your time, and I'm
thinking about what you said atthe beginning, when we were
talking about this fear, right?
And finding that the need, orthe desire of being yourself
kind of was bigger than thatfear. If there are people who
are listening and maybe arestruggling with that fear right
(43:31):
now of being themselves, whetherit's being themselves in regards
with gender, or maybe it's beingthemselves with regards to other
aspects of themselves, right?
But if people are dealing withthat fear that can feel so
overwhelming, yeah, is thereanything that you would want to
say to them or share with themabout that moment of finding a
way through the fear, so tospeak,
Maeve Duvally (43:58):
I think the most important thing is not to suffer
alone in silence. And there area lot of people like me and a
lot of people like you who I'msure are very, very open to
sharing our experience andsharing our insights on our
(44:19):
experience, so that they mayhelp inform other people. So
it's extremely important toreach out and talk to people who
have had similar experiences toyou, so So you know that, you
know, a lot of times when humanbeings suffer in silence, they
have the tendency to believethat what they're going through
(44:43):
is totally unique to them, andthey're the only ones
experiencing it the way thatthey are. And they're probably
not there. There are, there aremillions of us out out out
there, and there's a good chancethat a lot of us have had
similar experiences to somebodyelse. So the key is not to
(45:04):
suffer in silence.
Alex Iantaffi (45:06):
I love that. I love that the the key is not to
suffer in silence and connect,right? What I really hear is
also like that peer support,that connection, so beautiful.
If people wanted to find outmore about your upcoming
literary fiction when it will bepublished, I'm just confident
that it will be where could theyfollow you on social media? Or
(45:30):
do you have a website thatpeople can go to to find out
whether. Are, you know,obviously your book made rising.
Your memoir is already out, andI'm assuming people can order it
from any independent bookstoreor anywhere where they get
books. But yes, if they wantedto find out about your upcoming
writing, where could they go?
Yeah,
Maeve Duvally (45:50):
as a natural introvert, I'm not generally
disposed to to be very active onsocial media, but I was
wondering, I have become, I havebecome more active, given my
experience in corporate America,I'm probably most active on
LinkedIn. I do a little bit onFacebook. I haven't really done
(46:10):
that much lately. You know, whenyou write a book, you get you
get very inwardly. I've beenvery inwardly focused, you know,
for the last the last fewmonths. As I finish this off, I
do have a website, mavetovalley.com, I think it is. It's
not really up to date. I'llbring it up to date. But I'm
most active on Facebook andLinkedIn,
Alex Iantaffi (46:31):
yeah. So people can find you and, you know,
maybe in like six months or ayear, they'll be like, let me
see if that literary fiction,but Maeve is out. But in the
meantime, they can read Maeverising your wonderful memoir.
And listeners or viewers, ifyou're watching this on YouTube,
I really recommend it. It is abeautiful memoir and and I hope
(46:52):
that you enjoy it as much as Ihave, well, Maeve, this is
delightful. And I always ask allmy guests, is there anything we
haven't talked about that youare hoping we would talk about,
or anything else that you wouldlike to share with the gender
stories listeners,
Maeve Duvally (47:10):
I will, I will just say one thing i I'm very
hopeful for the future.
Sometimes, when we look at thepolitical environment, it's
tempting for LGBTQ plus people,it's tempting to be a little bit
pessimistic. But on on the statelevel, all those negative LGBTQ
(47:31):
plus bills, a lot of them didn'tpass. So it's it's really not
despite the fact thatpoliticians keep bringing it up,
it's really not a winningpolitical issue. And then the
other thing that gives me hopeis that the statistics show that
amongst the younger generations,there's a much higher percentage
(47:55):
of transgender, gender queer,gender non conforming and LGBTQ
plus people than there are in mygeneration. And as long as that
generation can be convinced tovote, you know, I think the
future is is bright for ourpeople.
Alex Iantaffi (48:21):
I couldn't agree more. I know that it's a scary
time, or what one of many scarytimes that we've gone through
historically, but I'm with you.
I see the the pushback. I mean,I'm fortunate to live in a trans
refuge state in Minnesota. But Ialso really see the change,
right? I think it was 30 or 40%of Gen Z identify outside of the
(48:42):
gender binary. And
Maeve Duvally (48:46):
crazy the statistics, I can't believe wild
Alex Iantaffi (48:49):
Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's just, how can you not
have hope, right? When you seethat, well,
Maeve Duvally (48:55):
the good thing is, they just don't care. Like,
gender is not an issue. Like,wow, yeah,
Alex Iantaffi (49:02):
absolutely. Like, regardless of political,
regardless of politicalaffiliation, I find the younger
folks are like, Oh, okay, thoseare your pronouns, great. Like,
and then the just, like, youknow, role.
Maeve Duvally (49:12):
I had this, um, 10 year old niece who I'm very
close with, and she completelytreats me as a woman or anything
like I asked her, like, what doyou think about the fact I'm
transgender? And she just goes,I just didn't care. And it made
me almost embarrassed to havebrought it up.
Alex Iantaffi (49:33):
Yeah, I think the younger folks look at this so
very differently. I can't evenimagine, like, in 50 years time
or 100 years time, where we willbe. And that's wonderful, right?
Because, like, I love that thefuture is open and I am with
you. I think that there is thereis hope. Well, thank you so so
much for spending this time withme and with the gender stories
(49:57):
listeners. And dear genderstories listeners, thank you so
much for listening as usual. Andplease remember, I know that the
fear can be great no matter whatyou're facing, but you don't
have to suffer in silence, andthere is always a way to connect
with like other people and andand hope. And I hope that you
(50:17):
can find that support and hopewherever you are, and until next
time bye.
Hello gender stories, listeners and watchers,
if you're watching on YouTubenow, I as ever I am excited and
delighted, because I always havethe best guests, and today I'm
really delighted to be here withMaeve Chevonne Duvally. Maeve is
a transgender, multiculturalcommunication specialist,
(00:56):
storyteller and LGBTQ plusadvocate. She spent the bulk of
her career as a journalist andcorporate spokesperson, most
recently at Goldman Sachs. Aftera lifetime of working for large
companies, she now consults forcorporations and other
organizations on communicationstrategy and diversity, equity
(01:17):
and inclusion. Maeve alsomentors transgender people. Is a
public speaker and a frequentsubject of press interviews on
LGBTQ plus workplace issues. Shewas a managing director in
corporate communications atGoldman Sachs over an 18 years
career prior to joining Goldman,Maeve worked in Media Relations
(01:38):
at Merrill Lynch. Before that,she was a financial journalist
and editor of bridge news fornearly 15 years with teens in
Tokyo, Washington, DC and NewYork. She spent 10 formative
years in Japan in the 1980s andis fluent in the language. Maeve
serves on the board of GLAAD,the night budget fellowship, a
(01:59):
journalism nonprofit and connectconnectica based LGBTQ plus
health provider and incorrectHealth Initiative. She earned a
BA in English from ProvidenceCollege in 1983 and was a ninth
budget Fellow at ColumbiaUniversity Graduate School in
Journalism School in 1994 theypublished author a memoir made
(02:20):
rising debuted through siblingpress in August 2023 and it's a
really wonderful book. Pleasecheck it out. We'll talk about
it throughout the episode, butthere will also be a link for
you to order the book in theepisode description. So welcome,
Maeve. So wonderful to have youhere in gender stories. Thank
(02:42):
you for making time to talk withme today. I really appreciate it.
Maeve Duvally (02:47):
Thanks very much for having me, Alex. I'm looking
forward to the conversation, andthank you very much for the plug
for the book. I'll take any plugI can get
Alex Iantaffi (02:55):
I know what's that? What that's like as an
author, we have to let the worldknow, let people know that we
got books out. I understandthat, and also it's a really
wonderful book. And wheneverpeople write a memoir, I feel
it's such a vulnerable, personalprocess. And I'm always really
curious about what moved you tokind of write a memoir,
Maeve Duvally (03:17):
sure? Well, part of my my life was already
exposed when I came out atGoldman Sachs, because I worked
in corporate communications, Ihad a lot of relationships with
reporters, and when we told thereporters that I worked most
closely with that I was going tobe coming out, a reporter for
the New York Times decided towrite a story about me. So you
(03:41):
know, my very what could havebeen a very kind of private
coming out experience at GoldmanSachs actually became very
public. And when I in theaftermath of that story, the
most surprising thing that Ilearned was that there are a lot
of transgender people out therein various stages of coming out,
(04:03):
or transgender people inuniversities who may be out
already but are worried aboutcoming out in corporate America
who wanted to talk to me aboutMy experience and share their
experience with me. So I justdeveloped this, this whole new,
(04:24):
this whole new thing to fill upmy life of talking to
transgender people, mentoringtransgender people, and I
realized there's a thirst forpeople to tell their story. So,
you know, I wanted to tell mystory so that other people in
the LGBTQ plus communitycommunity could identify with
them and to take something fromit. But also, you know, there's
(04:47):
a lot of people out there whohave never had any contact with
transgender people. And youknow, unfortunately, human
beings when they don't knowsomething about somebody who's
different from them, you know,maybe they're a little bit
skeptical. They say they don't,they don't really like that. But
when they have exposure to tothings, when they learn stories,
(05:08):
when then they themselves canlearn and identify with things,
then you know that that tends tohelp people become more
comfortable with people that aredifferent than them, in this
case, transgender people. So itwas both to to educate and to
help other people in the LGBTQplus community.
Alex Iantaffi (05:28):
Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense to me. You
know? I think we do reallyconnect for storytelling as
humans. You know, it kind ofhelps us humanize each other and
find those points of connectionswith one another. I want to come
back to your memoir, but I wantto say for a moment with that
process of a very privatejourney, in some ways, right,
(05:48):
that sure, there are kind ofpublic aspects right for all of
us, trans folks, there is thatmoment of like, telling people,
presenting in a different way,right? Taking all those very
vulnerable risks, which areoften very private, but for some
folks like yourself, thatprocess becomes very visible
early on. What was that like toadd that kind of a little bit in
(06:10):
the public eye? And I also wantto talk about the corporate
America piece, but let's talkabout the visibility piece,
because it can be a double edgedsword, at least in my
experience, that can be amazingkind of support and connection
with community, like you said,and with people who are really
encouraged and find reallysupport for your story. But you
(06:31):
know, there are also people whoare maybe not as positive, and
so I'm just kind of wonderingwhat that was like to be thrown
into kind of the public eye, soto speak, so early on in your
process.
Maeve Duvally (06:44):
Yeah, that's a great question, Alex. If I take
a step back and kind of look atthe whole arc of my coming out
experience, I realized I wastransgender in October of 2018
and I didn't come out at workuntil May of 2019 so there was a
seven or eight month periodwhere I was out of my social
life, but I wasn't out in mywork life. And my work life is a
(07:09):
very big part of my life. Whenyou work at an investment bank,
you're working you're in theoffice, 5060, hours a week and
you're always on call, so it wasa big part of my life. And you
know, I found every step alongthe way of my coming out
process, whenever I didsomething new, I had fear. And
(07:30):
why do queer people have fearbefore they they do something,
it's because they're worriedthat they're not going to be
accepted. And, you know, everytime I did something new, every
time, like the first time I puton makeup, the first time I
bought women's clothing, Ialways had fear, and I fought
(07:52):
through that, and I had theexperience. And after I had the
experience, I was generallyokay. And I find that my coming
out experience right afterMemorial Day in 2019 at Goldman
Sachs was was exactly the samething, although it was just
bigger, it was a bigger stage,and I knew the New York Times
(08:14):
was going to be covering it.
They trail. They shadowed me forthe first three days of me being
out at Goldman Sachs. And yeah,I was very, I was very fearful
of whether my co workers wouldwould accept me or not. But, you
know, there, there's fear, butthere's also, at some point, I
knew I couldn't I couldn't keepmyself bottled up any longer. I
(08:39):
just had to come out. So thatneed and that desire, that
intensity to come out,completely overwhelmed any
misgivings or fear that I had,and, you know, it, it allowed me
to have a very good coming outexperience. And you know, I was
(09:00):
very relieved as the day woreon, as I saw that my coworkers
were very supportive andaccepting. That
Alex Iantaffi (09:08):
is really wonderful to hear that there was
that support. And it's, it's sorelatable, right? As you were
talking, I was thinking, I'mlike, Oh yeah, I remember that
fear of like, doing the thingfor the first time, right, going
out with the binder for me forthe first time, right? Telling
the first person that usedifferent pronouns, that's it's
always really scary. But themore you do it, I don't know,
(09:30):
for me, at least, kind of themore those experiences of like,
oh, actually, people aresupportive. Kind of helped. And
like you said, that overwhelmingneed, almost, I would say, to be
ourselves, kind of just trampsthe fear in a lot of ways. But
yeah,
Maeve Duvally (09:47):
and then, and then, I'm sure you experienced
this, Alex, somewhere along theway, I pretty much lost all my
fear. And it's like I have theright. This is me. I have the
right to be here. I have nothingto be afraid of. And you know
what, if those people don'taccept me, that's their problem.
It's not my problem, right?
Alex Iantaffi (10:08):
Yes, oh my god, I'm so excited that you said
that, because I was going to askyou, actually, my next question
was, when was there a momentwhere the fear dissipated or got
smaller? So I'm so glad you saidthat, and I love that you said
that because I often talk tofriends, but also clients,
because I'm a therapist abouthow you know other people
perceive us, or what they thinkof us as trans folks, is really
(10:30):
outside of our control. At theend of the day, I. There's
nothing we can do to control howother people perceive us, what
they think of us, but what's inour control is here, right, in
our romantic selves, beingvulnerable, showing up for we
are, and really taking thatstep. Because what's the
alternative? Right? It's muchworse in my at least in my
(10:52):
experience, than not doing allof
Maeve Duvally (10:54):
that, you know, incidentally, and I always try
when I talk about educating nonLGBTQ plus people. I'm, I'm I'm
thinking about teaching themmore about transgender people so
they're more comfortable aboutaround us. But I'm also one of
(11:16):
the things I'm also after is toeducate that in some ways, our
experience isn't that differentto the experience of any person
in the wall in the world.
Because if you think about it,you know, life is a transition.
Everybody's going throughtransitions. Our experience is a
little bit more noticeable,because a lot of times we change
(11:36):
our appearance, we change ourname, we might go through
surgeries. But, you know, lifeis a transition. Everybody's
transitioning. Everybody'strying to kind of get to this
idealized version of self, whichwhich is a lifelong experience.
And I want people to know, fromthat perspective, we're really
(11:59):
no different than anybody else.
Alex Iantaffi (12:04):
I love that you framed it that way. I so agree.
I really, I often talk abouthow, like all of us, kind of
change throughout our lifejourney, right? And even our
relationship with gender, evencisgender people change how they
present their gender. Usually,you know, I often say you don't
present your gender in terms ofexpression, the same as you do a
five years old as you do a like30 or 40 or 80. I mean, maybe,
(12:27):
but most people kind of changeand experiment with what makes
us feel comfortable, right,whether we're trans or cis. We
also age, our voice changes aswe age. I was talking to Renee
yachtson about trans folks andboys, but also we were saying,
but everybody's voice changesalso as they age, right, not
just trans folks. And so I thinkthat giving people ways to plug
(12:51):
in and see our existence is notlike you said, not that
different. We just have aslightly different journey when
it comes to gender identity, butit's just really a deepening
into ourselves and and you didall of that in corporate
America, which is its own world.
And I have to admit that, youknow, I worked in state
universities, nonprofits, butnever worked in corporate
America, but I have friends whodo, and my perception is that it
(13:13):
can be a very kind ofprescriptive in some ways world,
right? There are certainexpectations in terms of
existing in corporate America,like how you present dress
codes, right, even even thevolume of work, right? And the
volume of the way you need to beavailable, especially in certain
(13:35):
roles. And so what was that liketo just come out in in in that
corporate environment,specifically where, you know,
and I might have amisperception, because, like I
said, it's not a world I walkedin personally, I'm just really
curious about what thatexperience was like for you in
that world, Sure,
Maeve Duvally (13:57):
great question.
And you know, in the bigcorporate world there, there is
definitely rigidity, and youreferred to the rigidity. But I
do believe, notwithstandingwhat's going on now in the
United States socially andpolitically, that there, there
are certain sectors of oureconomy and big finances, one
big tech, entertainment, luxurygoods. Those are areas of of the
(14:23):
United States economy that Ithink are fairly open to
diversity and again,notwithstanding what's going on
right now, they still are opento diversity, and I believe they
honestly believe that being openand welcome to as many different
(14:46):
kinds of people as possible is agood business decision, because
it makes it just, it's math,right? It increases the pool of
available candidates, and thediversity of views and opinions
that diverse people bring to thetable also yields better
(15:06):
decisions, because you have moreinputs going into that. So I
think a lot of places incorporate America recognize
that, and they are firmly behinddiversity and inclusion. I do
think, because what's going onright now, a lot of those
companies are probably going tobecome a little bit quieter for
(15:26):
the time being, about that. Butthat doesn't that doesn't mean.
That they still don't see thatas part of their core value,
absolutely,
Alex Iantaffi (15:39):
and it's been really interesting to see as
well, which companies or whichwhich corporations have not
gotten quieter, and which onesfeel the need to appeal maybe to
a broader sector of thepopulation and maybe are a
little bit quieter in theirsupport. It's definitely a very
interesting moment right now,talking about this moment in
(16:00):
time, how are you accessing somekind of joy and support for
yourself? I've been reallyasking all of my trans or minor
or gender expensive guests, likein this rise of anti transphobic
sentiment, how are you stillaccessing like joy and comfort
and support right now, even evenif it's in the smallest of ways,
(16:21):
sure,
Maeve Duvally (16:23):
there's a lot of inputs into that question. So
yes, let me see if I can handleall of them. First, I have to
acknowledge my privilege. I'mwhite. I worked at Goldman
Sachs, and I live in the Chelseasection of New York, which I
think is arguably one of thebest places in the world to be
(16:44):
an out transgender person. Andso I don't have the problems
that a young trans child insomewhere in the South has I
just don't have those. My lifeis, my life is really, really
good. You know, I talked aboutit in the memoir. I was an
active alcoholic for most of mylife, and in addition, I was
(17:09):
very confused, very unhappy. Sothe life I have right now is so,
so much better than that. Itdoesn't take very much to make
me happy. And I know a lot oftransgender people aren't as
fortunate as I am, but that justyou know, all of our experiences
are different, but every, everyday for me, I experience queer
(17:36):
joy. I'm just I'm just happy tobe alive. And since I found
writing that that allows me anoutlet to express some of that.
And you know, as someone who waswas an active alcoholic and
wasn't very happy, I was verymuch in my head. I had all this
(17:56):
stuff going on in my head, andwriting provides me an outlet to
kind of take some all the stuffthat was in my head that maybe
at the time, wasn't reallyconstructive to me being a
happy, productive person, but touse it in a positive way.
Alex Iantaffi (18:14):
And I want to thank you for sharing that. I
want to go back to the writing.
I think you made such animportant point, which is, when
we come into ourselves, we astrans folks, we usually do feel
better generally in our life,right? I love that you talked
about accessing queer joy, forexample. And so let's talk about
kind of what happens sometimesbefore we come out, which is
(18:35):
often people do struggle withalcoholism, substance use,
suicidality, we know all ofthose, rate depression, anxiety,
all of those are higher in kindof trans communities, which
makes sense given what's goingon in the world. But I'm
interested like in your own kindof struggle, if you like, which
you do write about in the memoiras well, with kind of alcoholism
(18:59):
and depression, and if you feelokay, to share a little bit
about what that time before,kind of coming into yourself.
What was that like, in terms ofthose thoughts in your head, the
maybe self medicating foralcohol, or, yeah,
Maeve Duvally (19:20):
sure, this is a topic I'm very, very happy to
talk about because I'm verypassionate about it. And for me,
my my sobriety and havingrealized my gender identity and
who I really am. They're very,very intertwined, and my
experience is a little bitdifferent from a lot of
(19:40):
transgender people. I didn'treally have any conscious
knowledge that I was transgenderuntil I got sober in January of
2018 and I realized I wastransgender rather suddenly in
October of 2018 so you know, itonly happened after I got sober,
and I don't think that's anyaccident. Now, when I look back
(20:04):
at it, and this is actually onereason why I wrote, I wrote,
wrote my memoir, it's, it'sbecause I now felt a compulsion
to go back and look at my lifenow that I was sober, now that I
know who I am as a sober, outtransgender person, and see what
(20:25):
my life looked like, and itlooked very different from what
I thought my life was when I waskind of in the midst of midst of
all of that. And I. The natureof my gender dysphoria was I
hated everything masculine aboutmyself, but I hated myself,
(20:45):
period. So I thought hating myeverything masculine about
myself was just part of mygeneral hatred for myself. For
example, I'll tell you that fromabout the age of 10 until the
time I came out in 2018 I sothat's a period of over 40
(21:06):
years. I didn't look at myselfin the mirror. I couldn't look
at myself in the mirror. So youknow, that's the type of hatred
I felt for myself, and so I andI do believe that this truth
that I was transgender wasalways in me. The alcohol just
hit. It, suppressed it, kept itdown, prevented it from coming
(21:30):
out. And once I got sober, itopened it opened me up to the
possibility that I could reallyfind out who I am
Alex Iantaffi (21:39):
that makes so much sense to me, and also
relate to that sense of, like,just hating yourself. I know I
did a lot of work on just, like,just accepting myself. I thought
it was like internalizedmisogyny, and I just had to
accept that, you know, that Iwas a woman in air quotes, and
that's how I was born, and itwas just internalized misogyny.
And then I was like, this is notinternalized misogyny. But, you
(22:01):
know, it took me, like, decadesto get to that point, and I
think, I don't know, I thinkwe're kind of similar
generation, potentially the samegeneration that there were no
role models, like, I didn't knowany trans people when I was a
child, right? Personally, likethere wasn't any representation
on TV in the 70s and 80s when Iwas and so I think it is
(22:23):
different, also for folks whoare kind of over 40 or 50,
compared to kids who are comingout as like 1415 nowadays, where
there are a lot more options.
You know, my oldest is alwayslike, Oh, if it's not a queer TV
show or a movie I don't want towatch. And I was like, how
amazing that you have thechoice, right? That's not it was
all subtext, I think, in when Iwas growing up. And so I don't
(22:44):
know if you also notice thosedifferences with younger trans
folks who are coming theimportance of representation.
You know what I mean? And, yeah,
Maeve Duvally (22:54):
and I wonder, Alex, if you watch the Netflix
documentary disclosure, oh,yeah, and, and so, like, it
showed all these shows that Igrew up with, and I had, I had
no knowledge I was transgender.
The word transgender didn'texist. But you know that show,
like showed movies like psychowhere the main character stabs
people, and the people talkingabout it were saying that, you
(23:18):
know, you know, the message hereis, if, if a man puts on a wig
and pretends he's a woman, thenhe's going to become a serial
killer. And, you know, all thosemessages were embedded in a lot
of shows and films andeverything. And I watched that
documentary, and I go, wow, wow,that's what we grew up with,
(23:38):
Alex, right, exactly.
Alex Iantaffi (23:41):
And we internalized all those messages
that somehow to be trans is tolike, to be deceiving, to be
dangerous, to be poor, a figureof fun. And I know even more so
for trans feminine folks, forsure, you know, and, but, but
that I don't know. For me, itdidn't even come into my
consciousness until, like, my30s. You know, that was like,
(24:02):
maybe that's something here,right? And then it still too
committed to understand whatthat was. And, and I love how
you talked about, once you stopsuppress, you know, in a way,
suppressing those feelings withalcohol, that you're like, Oh,
there I am, right? And there'sthis moment of recognition, what
was the most surprising thingsfor you in this process, whether
(24:27):
it's a process of coming out orthe process of writing your
memoir, which is kind of lookingback at your life in a way from
this different position?
Maeve Duvally (24:42):
Yeah, I think what most surprised me was when
I went back and looked at mylife
Alex Iantaffi (24:49):
and wrote my memoir,
Maeve Duvally (24:52):
there were a lot of clues as to the person I
really was. I just at the timethey were happening. I just
didn't choose to see them thatway. I can give you, like, you
know, one concrete example.
There were like three years in arow when I was in maybe Junior
(25:17):
High School, where forHalloween, I dressed up as some
type of women character, andthere was one year I dressed up
as a half man half womancharacter, which is wow. And.
When I look back at that, I go,Hmm, so you know, I do, you
know, I kind of, when I startedthe process, I kind when I was
(25:41):
talking to my therapist aboutthis, and Alex, you said you're
a therapist, yeah, so I'll givea plug for your industry. So
anybody, anybody who istransgender and just trying to
come to grips with it, I thinkthe first step always needs to
be therapy. It's, it's verycomplex. You have very complex
feelings, and it's really,really helpful to talk to a
(26:01):
professional who has experiencewith that to help you. I know, I
know I needed it. And so youknow when, I talked through all
this stuff in therapy and when Iwrote my book, I just really
realized that my transgenderhistory, which I didn't really
(26:22):
think I had much of atransgender history, I do have a
transgender history. I just wasnot able to connect it to the
person I am now, until I didsome introspective work.
Alex Iantaffi (26:36):
I love that, because sometimes we, you know,
I went for a similar thinglooking back, I was like, Oh, I
see things very differently,right? It's like, connect the
dots almost. And I love what yousaid about also therapy being
about support. I think so manytrans folks, understandably,
because of the history of ourmental health field see going to
(26:56):
therapy as part of gatekeepingin their transition process. And
I'm always like, it can be, butit doesn't have to be. It's I
think that everybody needstherapy through any life
transition, including gender,you know. And so I love hearing
that it was supportive. And
Maeve Duvally (27:13):
when I talked about, excuse me when I talked
about transition being alifelong experience, a
transition is self discovery andself actualization, and every
human being goes through that.
So to the extent you can have aprofessional help you with that,
self discovery and that leads toself actualization, you becoming
(27:35):
the person you were always meantto be. That's common to every
single human being, and it'sit's really the most important
thing that we do in our lives.
Absolutely,
Alex Iantaffi (27:51):
it's kind of finding ourselves, finding who
we are, funding our values. Ithink it's so, so incredibly
important. And and I know youkind of went through this
process of writing your memoir,and that kind of came out last
year, but are you still writing?
And if so, what are you writing?
Because I you obviously have apassion for writing, and you
(28:12):
talked about that process beingsomething that it's really
helpful for you. So I'm curiousabout whether you have other
writing projects in the in theworks right now.
Maeve Duvally (28:21):
I always wanted to write all my life, and for a
while I was a journalist, I gotto do writing. It's very
different from kind of a memoiror writing fiction, but I just
couldn't do it while I was stilldrinking and didn't really know
who I was, and I just kind ofpoured out once I came out and I
(28:43):
got the memoir out. But youknow, in retrospect, I needed to
do the memoir, but the memoirwas a stepping stone to fiction.
I'd really like to writefiction, and I just finished my
first novel. I've handed it tomy agent, and he's going to try
and sell it. It's a literarycoming of age story with a trans
(29:04):
main character. It's set inJapan and mass Cape Cod
Massachusetts, both places thatI love and there's a lot of
Catholicism in there. So I guesson one level, it's, it's still
dealing with some of the issuesthat I dealt with in my memoir.
(29:26):
I guess I haven't got all thatstuff fully out of my system,
but I'm very excited. It's, it'sa different creative process
writing fiction than a memoir,but it was very, very fulfilling
and satisfying, and I hope I canget it published and get it in
front of a lot of people.
Alex Iantaffi (29:47):
Yeah, I can't wait to see this book out in the
world. And I was like, Oh, I'malready into it, like, already
kind of across two countriesdealing with Catholicism. We
brought up Catholic as well.
Benny Jones, I was, but
Maeve Duvally (30:01):
yes, yes, I was.
And, you know, I actually have aI have a respect for organized
religion. I consider myself aspiritual person. And to the
extent organized religion is apathway to spirituality. I have
a great deal of respect, but forme as someone who had a lot of
self hatred when I was going upthe Catholic Church of the late
(30:24):
60s and early 70s had a focus onhell and sin, and that was a.
Combination with, with how Iviewed myself, it really was a
bad combination. And there's alot, there's a lot of good and
organized religion, you know,the, you know, there's, there's
a problem, obviously, with, withintolerance. And I have a big
(30:46):
issue with that, that, you know,many religions around the world
don't accept LGBTQ plus people,and that's, that's a rotten
shame. And I hope that changes,yeah,
Alex Iantaffi (31:03):
and I love what you said, also about like, it's
how we interpret it, right?
Like, same, when I was broughtup in the 70 there was a lot of
emphasis on hell and punishmentand, you know, sin, and I
remember getting a lot of in alot of trouble, when I said, I
don't think the hell exists. Ithink it's just humans not
feeling connection with God.
(31:24):
And, you know, the Nan's going,the hell's absolutely exist. You
know, that's blasphemous, youknow. But I think that we just
see those, we take thosebeautiful spiritual concept, and
then we put those human filtersthrough it, you know, and that's
when you get a lot of iterate, alot of bigotry, a lot of
smallness, where spirit could beso expansive, you know, and so
(31:47):
much more encompassing, youknow, when we look at it in a
different way, Oh, that could beall out of rabbit hole.
Maeve Duvally (31:54):
It certainly can.
It certainly can.
Alex Iantaffi (31:58):
But you talked about your love for writing
fiction, and this is a literaryfiction work. Is that kind of
the genre that you're mostinterested in or excited to
write about? Or do you have afavorite genre when it comes to
fiction and what you want towrite in the future? Maybe,
yeah, I
Maeve Duvally (32:16):
already started book number three, and I think
literary fiction is probablygoing to be my primary vehicle.
I have written a kind of a transdystopian sci fi short story
that I hope to sell as well. Andyou know, science fiction's
science fiction is a lot of funbecause you get to create your
(32:38):
own universe with its own laws.
And yeah, that that's that's alot of fun, so I might jump
around. But literary fictionnovels, I think that's going to
be my medium, and hopefully Ican make some money off it,
which is kind of hard to do.
It's hard to make, make a livingof being a writer. If I could do
(33:03):
it, that's all I would do. Iwould just write.
Alex Iantaffi (33:06):
I hear that, yes, if I also, if I could make a
living as a writer, I would justwrite. I have a few non fiction
books out, but like you said,it's not usually books don't
bring that much income, but whata pleasure it is to write them
and go through the process, atleast for me, right? It's a bit
like the need of coming out. Forme, that's like the need to
write, right? It's just like,it's hard to kind of not do that
(33:29):
when, when you're passionateabout writing,
Unknown (33:32):
what do
Alex Iantaffi (33:34):
you have, like, a favorite book or TV show at the
moment, or, like just media thatyou've been consuming? I'm
always curious about whatwriters read or watch or listen
to, yeah, anything that's kindof sparking that creative or
spirit, or just nurturing thatcreative spirit in you right now
Maeve Duvally (33:56):
or in the past?
Well, I don't really, I don'thave a TV I don't really watch
TV. And, you know, in in oursociety, that's, that's a
problem because you go out toeat with a group of people, um,
what, what do? What doeseveryone want to talk about?
What they're watching on TV? Sothat's always, that's always a
problem for me. So I really, Ireally read a lot. And you know,
(34:18):
if I could make a living fromwriting my my kind of second job
would be as a proselytizer ofthe power of reading and when
you when you publish a book, yourealize the economics of
publishing are just very, verychallenging. I read a statistic,
(34:41):
I think was in The New YorkTimes, that 60% of Americans
have not read a book forpleasure in the last year. And I
find that very disappointing.
And obviously I'm biased, butum, what reading does that
(35:01):
television doesn't do. It allowsyou to activate your
imagination, so you are the onein your mind, bringing the world
that's on these pages alive. SoI'm just, I, I love, I'm a
preacher for for the power ofwriting and reading. So I read a
lot. And one of my favoriteauthors, I lived in Japan for a
(35:22):
long time, and one of myfavorite authors is Haruki
Murakami, who is, is a verypopular writer. And I really
like, I really like some. OfJapanese modern fiction, they
have a lot of magical realism.
So, you know, they'll, they'llhave the real world, and then
they'll kind of have like these,these parallel worlds right
(35:44):
beside the real world wherelike, weird stuff happens. And I
actually had that in my memoir,and I have a lot of that in my
novel. I love that style. AndMurakami uses very big, bold,
powerful metaphors and similes,which, which I like as well. So
he's, he's one of my favoritewriters.
Alex Iantaffi (36:08):
Yeah, that makes sense. I love magical realism
too. In the Yeah, I love thatstyle. And sometimes I wonder, a
lot of trans folks and transauthors I talk to really love
kind of either magical realismor science fiction or fantasy,
kind of just that element wherethere's almost like Reality
(36:29):
Plus. And to me, makes sense,right? Because, in a way, our
lives are a little bit RealityPlus, like we have to match in
ourselves sometimes before wefully come into being as trans
folks, and so I don't know. Ijust think that there's a lot of
us are really attracted to somejust something more than just
the reality of the day to dayworld. If that makes
Maeve Duvally (36:49):
sense. In my in my short story, what I did was
in the science fiction so shortstory, I could talk about it for
ages, but really quickly, Italked about a medical
advancement that allowedtransgender people to to
procreate and through Evolution,transgender people become kind
(37:13):
of the superior people insociety, and they begin to
control society, and they'reenlightened for a while, but
then they kind of revert back tobasic human nature and oppressed
non transgender people. So it'skind of allegorical and
satirical, but I think it's thattype of stuff is interesting,
(37:37):
that change of perspective,
Alex Iantaffi (37:38):
absolutely. I'm a big fan also of ambitopia,
right? There's like this utopia.
But is it utopia, or isactually, is utopia? I really
think that's possible. And youknow, that kind of space between
utopia and dystopia is alwaysfascinating, yes, well,
Maeve Duvally (37:53):
it's very interesting.
Alex Iantaffi (37:54):
It's just very rich, right? I think that's
where humanity is between utopiaand dystopia. That's where we
live, isn't it so messy? Oh, Ifeel like I could talk with you
for a long time. I'm justlooking at my little list to
see. I was like, oh, what werewe gonna talk about? I don't
know. I kind of forgot all thequestions and went with the
beautiful conversation we'rehaving. Well, we talked about
(38:17):
the most surprising thing wasthere anything that you know as
you're writing, as you're kindof embracing your life as you in
the last few years, right?
Anything about yourself that,apart from gender, of course,
that you've also discovered thatwas maybe new or unexpected or
maybe that you couldn't fullyembrace before, right like so
(38:41):
apart from the gender piece,sometimes I find that I don't
know, for example, as I've gonethrough my own gender journey,
I've been really embracing mycreativity more, which is
something I was told I wasn'tvery good at growing up. Right
now, I'm like, well, actually,art is just something that you
feel compelled to do as anartist. It's not about being
(39:01):
good, and of course, you canimprove. You can study. But
right? So, were there anyaspects of yourself besides
gender that had also been maybepushed aside in your life?
Maeve Duvally (39:13):
Sure. That's an interesting question. And
obviously, once you kind of areopen to and embark on the
adventure of self discovery andself actualization, just as soon
as you feel like you getsomeplace, something else kind
of comes up. And so, you know,not surprisingly well, I was an
(39:35):
active alcoholic and a veryconfused and unhappy person. I
was very introverted for most ofmy life. I was very isolated,
spent a lot of time alone, andso, you know, once I, once I
came, got sober and came out, Irealized I, you know, I, I
(39:56):
didn't have to be that way.
However, I, you know, I've, I'vecome to believe that while, um,
my happiness can be manifestedin in maybe more an externally,
I smile more, I laugh more. Inever smiled him laughter most
of my life. But you know what,just given the person who I am,
(40:17):
I am not ever going to be thelife of the party type of
person. And there was a part ofme early on who said, you know,
I want to be that person, thatexuberant person, that every.
Buddy talks about they'reallowed and but you know what?
I've come to realize that that'sjust not me, and I can evolve a
(40:39):
little bit to be a moreexuberant person, but I I have
some there's some raw materialsthat are me that's not going to
ever allow me to be that person.
So what type of person withinthe parameters of who I am, can
I be? So I want to be a littlebit more outgoing, but, you
(41:01):
know, I've kind of decided that,you know, I want to be the kind
of person who's thoughtful whenI speak people really listen to
what I say, and I want to be thekind of person who projects
calmness and serenity, and whenpeople around me, they feel more
calm and serene and hopeful. SoI guess my message is that I
(41:29):
think at least for me, that youit's, it is possible to change
who you are, but to and and actdifferently and behave
differently in accordance withwho you want to be. But there
are some you're somewhat limitedby your raw material. So
Alex Iantaffi (41:52):
it's,
Maeve Duvally (41:54):
it's a process figuring out how that manifests
itself in your life, and that'ssomething I really think about a
lot. If that makes sense, it
Alex Iantaffi (42:05):
does. It makes complete sense to me, at least I
feel like, you know, in a way,it's, it sounds like it's part
of that deeper acceptance ofyourself, but also the idea of,
like, what do I want to put intothe world? Right? It's like, if
we co create the world, whatI've been thinking a lot about,
that actually, as the world doeswhat it does, like, how do I
(42:28):
want to show up? What do I wantto put out in the world? What
kind of person do I want to be?
And I love what you said about Iwant to be a person that's like,
calm and just like, reallypeople can connect with and talk
with, and kind of it's okay notto be like the super loud,
extroverted life of the party. Ithink there's a lot of value we
put on extroverts in our world,but there's a lot of value in
(42:49):
being introverted, or what's theambivert when you can do a
little bit of both. But yes,that makes a lot of sense to me.
And I think that it makes senseto me that once you come into
yourself in every way, you'realso finding those parts of
yourself, oh so beautiful, youknow, like I could keep talking
(43:10):
with you, but I want to berespectful of your time, and I'm
thinking about what you said atthe beginning, when we were
talking about this fear, right?
And finding that the need, orthe desire of being yourself
kind of was bigger than thatfear. If there are people who
are listening and maybe arestruggling with that fear right
(43:31):
now of being themselves, whetherit's being themselves in regards
with gender, or maybe it's beingthemselves with regards to other
aspects of themselves, right?
But if people are dealing withthat fear that can feel so
overwhelming, yeah, is thereanything that you would want to
say to them or share with themabout that moment of finding a
way through the fear, so tospeak,
Maeve Duvally (43:58):
I think the most important thing is not to suffer
alone in silence. And there area lot of people like me and a
lot of people like you who I'msure are very, very open to
sharing our experience andsharing our insights on our
(44:19):
experience, so that they mayhelp inform other people. So
it's extremely important toreach out and talk to people who
have had similar experiences toyou, so So you know that, you
know, a lot of times when humanbeings suffer in silence, they
have the tendency to believethat what they're going through
(44:43):
is totally unique to them, andthey're the only ones
experiencing it the way thatthey are. And they're probably
not there. There are, there aremillions of us out out out
there, and there's a good chancethat a lot of us have had
similar experiences to somebodyelse. So the key is not to
(45:04):
suffer in silence.
Alex Iantaffi (45:06):
I love that. I love that the the key is not to
suffer in silence and connect,right? What I really hear is
also like that peer support,that connection, so beautiful.
If people wanted to find outmore about your upcoming
literary fiction when it will bepublished, I'm just confident
that it will be where could theyfollow you on social media? Or
(45:30):
do you have a website thatpeople can go to to find out
whether. Are, you know,obviously your book made rising.
Your memoir is already out, andI'm assuming people can order it
from any independent bookstoreor anywhere where they get
books. But yes, if they wantedto find out about your upcoming
writing, where could they go?
Yeah,
Maeve Duvally (45:50):
as a natural introvert, I'm not generally
disposed to to be very active onsocial media, but I was
wondering, I have become, I havebecome more active, given my
experience in corporate America,I'm probably most active on
LinkedIn. I do a little bit onFacebook. I haven't really done
(46:10):
that much lately. You know, whenyou write a book, you get you
get very inwardly. I've beenvery inwardly focused, you know,
for the last the last fewmonths. As I finish this off, I
do have a website, mavetovalley.com, I think it is. It's
not really up to date. I'llbring it up to date. But I'm
most active on Facebook andLinkedIn,
Alex Iantaffi (46:31):
yeah. So people can find you and, you know,
maybe in like six months or ayear, they'll be like, let me
see if that literary fiction,but Maeve is out. But in the
meantime, they can read Maeverising your wonderful memoir.
And listeners or viewers, ifyou're watching this on YouTube,
I really recommend it. It is abeautiful memoir and and I hope
(46:52):
that you enjoy it as much as Ihave, well, Maeve, this is
delightful. And I always ask allmy guests, is there anything we
haven't talked about that youare hoping we would talk about,
or anything else that you wouldlike to share with the gender
stories listeners,
Maeve Duvally (47:10):
I will, I will just say one thing i I'm very
hopeful for the future.
Sometimes, when we look at thepolitical environment, it's
tempting for LGBTQ plus people,it's tempting to be a little bit
pessimistic. But on on the statelevel, all those negative LGBTQ
(47:31):
plus bills, a lot of them didn'tpass. So it's it's really not
despite the fact thatpoliticians keep bringing it up,
it's really not a winningpolitical issue. And then the
other thing that gives me hopeis that the statistics show that
amongst the younger generations,there's a much higher percentage
(47:55):
of transgender, gender queer,gender non conforming and LGBTQ
plus people than there are in mygeneration. And as long as that
generation can be convinced tovote, you know, I think the
future is is bright for ourpeople.
Alex Iantaffi (48:21):
I couldn't agree more. I know that it's a scary
time, or what one of many scarytimes that we've gone through
historically, but I'm with you.
I see the the pushback. I mean,I'm fortunate to live in a trans
refuge state in Minnesota. But Ialso really see the change,
right? I think it was 30 or 40%of Gen Z identify outside of the
(48:42):
gender binary. And
Maeve Duvally (48:46):
crazy the statistics, I can't believe wild
Alex Iantaffi (48:49):
Exactly. Yeah, it's, it's just, how can you not
have hope, right? When you seethat, well,
Maeve Duvally (48:55):
the good thing is, they just don't care. Like,
gender is not an issue. Like,wow, yeah,
Alex Iantaffi (49:02):
absolutely. Like, regardless of political,
regardless of politicalaffiliation, I find the younger
folks are like, Oh, okay, thoseare your pronouns, great. Like,
and then the just, like, youknow, role.
Maeve Duvally (49:12):
I had this, um, 10 year old niece who I'm very
close with, and she completelytreats me as a woman or anything
like I asked her, like, what doyou think about the fact I'm
transgender? And she just goes,I just didn't care. And it made
me almost embarrassed to havebrought it up.
Alex Iantaffi (49:33):
Yeah, I think the younger folks look at this so
very differently. I can't evenimagine, like, in 50 years time
or 100 years time, where we willbe. And that's wonderful, right?
Because, like, I love that thefuture is open and I am with
you. I think that there is thereis hope. Well, thank you so so
much for spending this time withme and with the gender stories
(49:57):
listeners. And dear genderstories listeners, thank you so
much for listening as usual. Andplease remember, I know that the
fear can be great no matter whatyou're facing, but you don't
have to suffer in silence, andthere is always a way to connect
with like other people and andand hope. And I hope that you
(50:17):
can find that support and hopewherever you are, and until next
time bye.
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