October 28, 2025 • 68 mins
Dr Alex Iantaffi talks with Tristan Katz about conscious marketing, social justice, and how to navigate the intersection of personal integrity and professional practices. They explore the complexities of marketing in the so-called “wellness space”, the importance of engaging in critical thinking, the responsibilities that come with online visibility, and the role of social media in shaping cultural narratives.
Tristan Katz (they/he) is a business consultant, conscious marketing strategist, and equity-inclusion facilitator with a lifelong commitment to human rights and justice. Tristan supports individuals and organizations in aligning their values with their messaging through an intersectional, anti-oppression lens. Tristan’s work centers authenticity, relationship, and accessibility, and they’ve collaborated with authors, educators, and cultural leaders as well as organizations like Stanford University, HubSpot, Portland Public Schools, and Port of Portland. Currently, Tristan serves as COO and Director of Programming at Fruition Growth Network. He is also a longtime yoga student, Yoga Journal game-changer (2021), and former board member of Accessible Yoga. At the core of everything Tristan offers is the belief that marketing can be a tool for connection, truth-telling, and cultural change—not just sales.
Find out more about Tristan and follow their work at the following links:
https://www.katz-creative.com/
https://instagram.com/tristankatzcreative
Instagram: GenderStories
Hosted by Alex Iantaffi
Music by Maxwell von Raven
Gender Stories logo by Lior Effinger-Weintraub
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:34):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories.
I know I'm always excited, elated, but what can I say?
I know a lot of cool people and I've got to know a lot of cool people through the podcast.
feel so incredibly privileged.
And this season I'm really focusing on trans, non-binary and gender-expansive folks ohbecause I think we need to in the current climate.
(00:58):
I still love interviewing cis folks and cis folks are always welcome.
on the podcast, but I'm so excited that I get to highlight some wonderful trans folks.
And today you get to know more about Tristan Katz, who is a business consultant, consciousmarketing strategy, and equity inclusion facilitator with a lifelong commitment to human
(01:18):
rights and justice.
Tristan supports individuals and organizations in aligning their values with theirmessaging through an intersectional anti-oppression lens.
Tristan's work centers authenticity, relationship, and accessibility.
They've collaborated with authors, educators, and cultural leaders, as well asorganizations like Stamford University, HUBspot, Portland Public Schools, and Porto
(01:42):
Portland.
Currently, Tristan serves as COO and Director of Programming at fruition Growth Network.
And he's also longtime yoga student, yoga journal game changer, and former board member ofAccessible Yoga.
(03:58):
At the core of everything Tristan offers is the beliefThe marketing can be a tool for connection, truth telling and cultural change, not just
sales.
And if you want to find out more about Tristan's work, all the links are in the usualplace in the episode description, or if you're watching this on YouTube, they're going to
be also in the episode description, but on YouTube.
(04:18):
I, full disclosure, I've been working with Tristan for what?
Like a year and a half now, two years, I don't even know, maybe a year and a half.
And,they have like absolutely rocked my world when it comes to marketing and business and
Brooke Monaghan as well, who runs some of the programming with Tristan.
(04:39):
You have both really changed the way I relate to the idea of selling in air quotes, which,know, if you're self-employed, you kind of have to sell your services or as an author,
your books, all the things, right?
We still live under capitalism.
But you really change the way I look at those things in ways that I could never haveimagined.
(05:00):
So I have so much gratitude.
ah So welcome, Tristan.
Alex, thank you for having me.
It's such an honor to be here with you.
It's so fun.
I'm so excited about this conversation.
ah So let's talk about conscious marketing, right?
Because in a way, when we say conscious marketing, it can sound a little bit like so manybuzzwords out there.
(05:24):
And I don't want to be too shady, but I feel like nowadays everybody is an intersectionalfeminist, which is also problematic.
That's a whole other conversation, right?
For so many reasons, especially with white folks.
you know, everybody is, you know, decolonizing everybody.
again, not trying to be shady, but it can be really hard to discern what's a password andwhat's an authentic practice or where the values are.
(05:51):
So when you say conscious marketing, what do you mean in your work?
such a good intro to this conversation because I'm even thinking right now, I'm like, somany people might even think that conscious and marketing are directly opposed, right?
um I guess I feel like, ah I guess I'll start by saying that the way I learned how tomarket and how to promote
(06:20):
and how to grow an audience and grow your work as a small business or entrepreneur wasthrough on the job experience, growing my father's business and his business.
And this was, um I started working with him in 2007 and he was centering his work as aneducator, writer and carpenter on teaching.
(06:48):
carpenters and contractors knew tools and techniques in the trade.
And what we found was he could market products and materials by using them in theeducational environment.
Like if he could just have a deal with this sponsor, then he could use their hammer andteach about like why this hammer is special, you know, for example.
(07:12):
And so the line became marketing through education.
Hmm.
And the whole premise of his business was we are going to market your products, but we'regoing to do it in a way that is actually in aligned with serving the greater good.
You're going to have less recalls on your products.
People are going to be more prepared to use them the right way.
You know, we're talking about building homes and like waterproofing and stuff that like,you don't want to get wrong and your company doesn't want people out there getting it
(07:40):
wrong.
So this was all the environment that I learned.
how to market in.
And in that environment, I mean, and don't get me wrong at the time in 2007, and then whenit really started, the business started evolving was probably in like 2012, 2015, around
(08:04):
then, now we're on social media and I still didn't understand the connection towhat I'll just call is like my other half of my life.
Like I had like all this academic background in studying human rights and studying socialmovements and studying really US imperialism around the globe and trying to understand
(08:31):
myself within it, but not seeing that my professional skill set was something that wasgoing to call me into.
And soEventually I saw very quickly like, we're the nature of marketing is changing with the
internet.
The nature of marketing is changing with social media.
It's now like, it's, it's more clear when we're being sold to and it's happening in anenvironment where we're also looking for distraction, entertainment.
(09:02):
mean, the same thing was happening on television and still is with commercials, right?
But we've also become attuned to those.
And I imagine a lot of us aren't being sold based on commercials.
Like maybe we were back in the day when commercials were really big deal, right?
So now that we're here and it's all happening on our phones or on our computers, whichwe're on more and more and more, I just see more and more and more, especially with the
(09:32):
evolving human experience and the increasing violent moment that we're in.
that we can't separate the two.
And so to me, conscious marketing is understanding, like you said, we have to pay ourbills because we live in capitalism.
I want to pay my bills and make meaningful change in the world.
That doesn't start with the minute I get on the Zoom call.
(09:56):
It starts with the minute I take up space talking about my work.
And if I'm not doing that in a way that is understandingthe nature of the human experience, the collective trauma we're witnessing, experiencing,
the grief, the chaos, the violence, the authoritarianism.
If I'm not understanding that, then I can't actually reach people.
(10:18):
And I'm more likely to further all the things that are leading us away from one anotherand from ourselves, right?
And I talk about this all the time through the gender lens of like, can we please usemore...
up-to-date language around gender in our marketing, or how about not even use genderlanguage at all in our marketing?
(10:39):
Because I don't think we need it.
And I think when we are relying on these like go-to quote unquote tips and tricks andniching and, you know, getting the tagline right, it's, we're more likely to just keep
going in urgency and confusion and perpetuating all these things that are causing so manyof us.
(11:00):
real pain, oppression, marginalization, et cetera.
So how can we do both in this space?
Move forward socially in the fight for human rights and social justice and pay ourselvesand also do it in a way that's accessible so that we're sustaining ourselves while we're
also supporting other people.
Absolutely.
And I'm even thinking about one of the principles from disability justice and especiallyat the moment, every time I say disability justice, I think about Patti Burns because she
(11:30):
died pretty recently in the last few months.
And so I just have so much gratitude for her work and the work of Sins Invalid and ofcourse the work of so many other disability justice activists alongside Patti.
But I'm thinking about the sustainability piece, especially as an aging disabled person,right?
It's like forMe marketing some of my content is also about sustainability on my services, right?
(11:52):
Like if I'm going to show up in my life or in community, I need to some resources while welive under capitalism because we don't yet have the network of care that we need.
So it's like that both and.
And you do work with a lot of minoritized uh providers, mostly in the wellness space,which is also an interesting space to be in.
(12:14):
uhbecause it has been and it continues to be so harmful.
So I sit like, go, go for it.
I see it.
You've got things to say.
oh seriously.
I mean, it's just so interesting because, you know, I started practicing yoga in 2000.
I was 20 years old and it was in California and I didn't know my gender or sexualityreally at the time.
(12:43):
so, and you know, I'm a small bodied, somewhat flexible white person who was movingthrough the world at the time as a woman.
I'm not successfully in time inside, but I was benefiting in some way from theheteronormative and the cis normative environment of yoga in the United States, in
(13:05):
California, in the two thousands, right?
Um, and the more I start, it's so interesting how like the practices of yoga led me intofinally hearing my body, which took, I mean, that was 2000 when I started.
It was 2018, by the time I was able to hear something in my body around my gender.
(13:32):
So it took me 18 years of practice and all kinds of other life experiences, of course, torecognize that, um yes, this was an environment that was giving me great healing, the
wellness space, quote unquote.
Um, and there were lots of ways in which I was welcomed and affirmed and normalized andincluded and, and belonged, right.
(13:55):
and I always felt the unbelonging.
I always felt something wasn't right.
And, and that I couldn't just rest easy in those spaces.
And when I started advocating for change in yoga spaces prior to the COVID2020 pandemic, I was met with a lot of confusion and pushback.
(14:23):
And what I found was a lot of spiritual bypassing and clinging to the narrative that weare all one and that these spaces aren't meant for us to um bring in politics or some
garbage, you know?
And yeah.
(14:44):
that rhetoric absolutely.
mAnd then I found Michelle Cassandra Johnson's work.
Yeah.
uhWe should explain that in the coaching group that Tristan and Brooke read whenever Tristan
names Michelle Cassandra Johnson, we will take a drink of water ah because Michelle isamazing and Michelle's work is amazing.
(15:10):
So anyway, you found Michelle.
I found Michelle, it was 2018, it was around the same time that I was pulling on thethread of my body's messaging around pronouns in particular in gendered language.
I was pulling on that thread and I found her first book, Skill in Action.
And it's funny, I didn't know it at the time of course, but I did know that that book wasclicking things for me in a whole new way.
(15:34):
It was the first time, it's so interesting too, after decades of being in...
traditional Western academic environments, it was the first time that somebody was givingme the language of systemic racism and like really breaking it down, like really breaking
down white supremacy culture and how it's playing out in general and in yoga.
(15:56):
And I was blown away and just in line with how long, I mean, I've always been like thiswhen I learn about more
frameworks or understanding particularly relating to human rights.
I want more.
I want to go deeper.
And so I went so deep on studying with Michelle and studying her work and getting to knowher.
(16:16):
And she's been, I mean, she's a friend and she's a colleague and she's a mentor.
She's an incredible teacher.
And what I learned is that I had to bring the advocacy work I wanted to do in yoga andwellness into the marketing, right?
Back through,to like marketing through education.
If I could reach people through my marketing, it would be so much bigger than just sellingthem a workshop registration because I could call people into a conversation, right, about
(16:49):
what we're doing in a yoga space and about what we could be doing, for example.
And so I started seeing that happening in my marketing through, suddenly it was like, ohIf we can't separate this from yoga, we can't separate this from marketing, we can't
separate it anywhere.
How do I demonstrate that this is the kind of work I want to be doing?
(17:09):
You know, and it was, oh, I talk about it on social media and, here we are, you know, andI, and yes, to your point, it is not easy work.
and, uh, fortunately I find that a lot of people really want to be having theseconversations right now.
(17:29):
and they're the ones who are coming to me.
In general, I'm not interacting with people who are digging their heels in or arguing withme about human rights.
And it's probably because I'm very clear that I'm not interested in arguing about it.
If you work with me, this is what we're gonna talk about.
(17:49):
And I'm just getting clearer on that as time goes on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you attract some amazing people.
mean, the coaching group that you and Brooke ran is like, I think I missed like one maybebecause, you know, I really had to, but it's something, it's a space that is so important,
um, both because of you and Brooke, but also because of the people you bring together.
(18:11):
Right.
I think it's a lot of people who have a message that could really shift things culturally.
Right.
AndYou know, the marketing is not just because we want to make like six figures or we want to
like make a million dollar, like, we want like some easy solution, which is most likely ascam anyway.
(18:32):
Um, but it's because we want to understand how can we show up in integrity while alsotaking care of ourselves so that we can keep showing up in integrity to ourselves and our
community.
Cause you know, when I was working.
80 hours a week in service of academia that was not serving me or my communities, right?
Personally, that's how I felt.
(18:52):
And I know other people might have different experiences.
And so love having found a space where this is really taken seriously.
I mean, so much so that, you know.
You are very outspoken.
mean, you have a free Palestine uh poster right behind you right now for the folks who arelistening.
So I'm assuming it's okay to talk about that.
Like you're very open about being an anti-Zionist Jewish person.
(19:15):
and you know, and you've been very open about that from very early on.
It wasn't like, now I really have to say something because everybody else is sayingsomething.
You are very clear from the beginning and you've done your own personal work around that.
Because that's another piece, like I think that there is a piece of personal work, likehow we need to do our personal internal work if we are to truly show up with integrity in
(19:44):
marketing.
Can you say a Because at least that's how I see your work.
Yeah, mean, isn't integrity is a self and other thing, right?
It like, oh, yeah, it's not, it's not individual and it's not solely collective.
It's both, right?
(20:04):
And I feel like I have to have integrity to myself, not first or most, but it is, youknow, it's an ex, it's both.
I, anytime.
I'm shown something that I don't understand or don't yet know.
I want to understand more.
(20:24):
And to me, that's a big part of how I keep practicing.
Right.
Um, and I feel like there's a lot of talk in dominant marketing conversation that isemphasizing, like show your results.
Yes.
maybe not show your work, right?
Like here's the blueprint, just buy the blueprint, buy the template and you too can dothis thing that I did.
(20:51):
Or, you know, my clients are making six figures, you too can make six figures or, youknow, I don't, and it is, it's a lot of, it feels like false promises.
Yeah, go ahead.
I mean, most of the time it probably is quite frankly, because all the sides of like make,you know, $10,000 a month working for this, for hours a week or something.
(21:18):
I'm like, come on, like...
The only people who can make that kind of money working for hours a week are people withintergenerational wealth or CEOs of like large companies.
And that's part of the lies though, right?
It's like, it's what keeps us stack also in white supremacy, right?
It's like you too could be one of the 1 % and could be rich if you just crack the secretformula or the code, right?
(21:44):
And it gets ingrained because even I was like, must be, you know, I had my moments of Imust be something wrong, right?
Because it's like,My platform is not as big as some of my books, like gender traumas are like two awards,
but it's not covered by pretty much any press.
It's only sold like a few hundred copies, but everybody who's read it loves it by andlarge.
(22:05):
And so I'm like, I must be doing something wrong, right?
But actually what has been really amazing working with you and Brooke and also being in acommunity of people.
You can have incredible content.
You can also have a really large platform on social media and still not see those resultsin air quotes because it's much more complicated than that.
(22:27):
It's so much more complicated and I hear so many people who are like so high integrity andlike really care about their work and have a body of work that they have grown over the
years.
And they're like, what if I must be doing something wrong because my Instagram audience isthis or my newsletter audience is this, or I only get this many clicks when I send out a
(22:48):
newsletter.
And I just, I want us to focus on not to say that those feelings aren't something to payattention to and dig into.
What I am thinking though is the fact that it's easy to get lost in these numbers and themetrics and the idea that we're doing something wrong if it doesn't look a certain way.
(23:09):
And I keep thinking like, why did we start working for ourselves to begin with?
Right?
It's to free ourselves from the confines of how we've been taught it's supposed to bedone.
And I want to figure out how I can work for myselfand not work as my identity.
(23:31):
uh And I know that I can only do that if I'm financially sustainable because when I am infear, financial fear, work becomes my whole life for understandable reasons, right?
So if I can find a way to sustain myself and yeah, it's not gonna be through just reaching10.
(23:52):
thousand followers on Instagram if we can't back that up with like an actual business,right?
And that's the other thing that I think is so interesting is this like influencer cultureand the way effective content can mask the fact that there is no business or that people
don't really know how to position themselves in the work they do.
They only know how to create content.
(24:14):
Like there's just, there's so much mess out there.
And then I think about to your point howIt's the narratives of who's winning and how to win as if that's a thing are white
dominated and they're cis dominated and they're hetero dominated and they're able list andthe list goes on and those of us who are experiencing marginalization or, you know, social
(24:35):
othering em are then internalizing even further that we're getting it wrong.
Exactly.
And that's the piece about individual and relational integrity, right?
Because it's like, um there's something there.
(24:56):
Bear with me listeners, because it might take me a minute to get there.
uh But there's something there about how even people who supposedly seem to have thosesocial justice values will still say things that perpetuate
oppression.
So I've heard this so many times from therapists and somatic practitioners, you have tocharge what you're worth.
(25:19):
And I was like, my worth is not described by what I charge.
However, what I've learned in my work with you is I need to charge what is sustainable.
So that can do the work that makes me feel whole and compensated, which a lot of the timeis work that's free or low cost for my community.
But I can't do the work.
Because I don't have intergenerational wealth.
I have some financial stability.
(25:41):
I've brought myself firmly into some level of questionable middle class as an immigrant.
And I say questionable because I feel it could be taken away at any moment in a lot ofdifferent ways.
And so to do that, I need to work that's sustainable.
But that doesn't mean that if I'm seeing somebody for free or if I'm charging less, I'mworth less in airport.
(26:05):
Right?
And it's just, you know what I mean?
And there's just something there about how people can have the right values in theirquote.
And we have done it, we can all do it.
Like we internalize this bullshit and we keep regurgitating it to each other.
And then it feels like personal failure, right?
I must be doing something wrong if I'm not making enough money.
(26:28):
I must be doing something wrong if my master just not getting out there.
I must be doing something wrong if my book is not in New York Times bestseller.
Don't even get me started on the con that is like the old publishing industry, New YorkTimes reviews.
Like there's so much to be said about that.
And like, you know what I mean though?
Like.
because also Alex, when I think about, okay, so I'm following someone right now onInstagram who is just got onto the New York Times bestseller list the same frickin week
(26:55):
that their book came out.
Good for them, you know?
Good for them!And, man, did I watch them and they're still hustling, right?
Like book tour, book tour, book gig, book gig.
I'm even thinking about Dean Spade.
Not on the bestseller list, but should be.
uh oh everywhere, right?
(27:17):
Like every podcast, every week there's a new podcast, every week there's a new virtualevent or an in-person event.
Like Dean is working so hard to spread awareness of that new book and good for Dean.
We don't all have it in us to travel or to schedule, you know, this many podcastinterviews and to put the kind of like marketing and promotional.
(27:41):
time and energy and labor to make sure that the book has a big audience.
it's like the work still needs to reach people.
So we do it in the ways that we can.
And it doesn't this comparison.
It's so hard under capitalism because the narrative is easy.
It's easy to think, well, Dean must be doing great financially.
(28:04):
Right.
No.
people don't understand, it's like so many of those things, it's a labor of love.
Like I don't monetize gender stories.
I actually spend money on the podcast because I need a recording platform and I need thedisseminating platform, right?
And book events are not paid by a large, mean, very rarely, unless maybe, maybe if you dosomething with higher education and even then it's like, you know, maybe you break even.
(28:32):
But like in bookstores, like it's,It's a symbiotic relationship, right?
Like your travel is not paid usually, book events are not paid, podcast appearances arenot paid, media appearances are not paid.
And when you create content, like I love creating content for the love of creatingcontent.
Actually, that's one of the things I really got to like, I'm like, I'm an educator atheart.
(28:54):
And I've really been disillusioned by um the way the education, especially in theso-called United States is organized.
And so I want to get information out toin a way that's accessible.
That's what drives me, right?
And that is all free labor.
It takes time, it takes energy, and it's like physical, emotional, cognitive labor, not tospeak then about the social stuff that can come at you.
(29:18):
The risk of disability, the risk of doxing for minoritized people in this moment, right?
The risk of being targeted.
And so it's like none of those things are simple.
And that's what I love about your work is like, it's not like, you know, so muchtraditional marketing, let's call it, our quotes.
uh really capitalizes on dominant oppressive values, like create a sense of scarcity.
(29:42):
There's only 50 seats left in this workshop, right?
I mean, I fall into that too, right?
I should say registration is limited for in-person events.
I was like, well, registration is always limited for in-person events because you have acapacity issue.
Like that's just reality.
uh But like traditional marketing encourages like this sense of scarcity, fear ofout, try FOMO, and comparing our insights to other people's outsides, which social media
(30:05):
definitely has a role in that, I think.
it leverages our fear and what you are trying to do is something different.
You are encouraging people to show up authentically and build relationship.
(30:26):
At least that's how I feel, right?
Like so much of your work.
I think our marketing is so much bigger than just the transaction.
think traditional marketing conversations are entirely focused on the transaction and Iwant to focus on something bigger.
I know the transaction will come if I keep showing up in like honor of myself and thelarger why of my work.
(30:52):
Like if I can keep connecting to the larger why of my work, then I can let go of like,Even when I market a workshop online and I, like I am right now, I feel like I'm putting
in so much energy.
If I don't get people signed up, this is going to be such a failure because I will havespent all this time sharing all this marketing content.
(31:13):
And if nobody comes in, it's such a, no, what if it's not a failure?
What if me talking about my work over and over and over again in different ways isactually part of the point?
Whether anybody ever comes to pay for this particular training, I, the work is to keepputting myself out there, not in a way that is misattuned or oblivious or bypassing.
(31:38):
Um, but in a way that is understanding what we're experiencing, what people might benefitfrom hearing and what my why is, right?
Because it is, it's about the relationship and the bigger purpose.
And if I can keep my eye on that.
and then do the backend work to like be skillful with my prices, be skillful with myofferings, you know?
(32:01):
Then I think I can trust that I'll reach my bottom line financially and it won't, I mean,there's so many times where I've gotten messages from people that are like, you don't have
a lead magnet or a sales funnel?
And I'm like, no, my body told me no.
My body said no, that felt icky and I don't wanna do it and so I didn't.
(32:21):
Yep.
And that's the kind of marketing I want to be in is like, you don't want to be onInstagram?
Great.
Let's find out another place for you to get in front of new eyes because they are outthere.
You don't have to sell your soul in order to pay your bills.
And I feel like I was told that I did and I can't.
Absolutely, oh absolutely.
(32:43):
mean, honestly.
Even in academia, which that is a place where it shouldn't happen, as a researcher, like Iwas told, why do you still show up in community?
You've built enough trust with community members, you know, and you're working so much.
And I was like, I'm not showing up in community as a tool to get research participants orbuild relationships.
(33:05):
I'm showing up in community because I'm part of the community.
You know, I'm not as, I'm not separate.
I was like, what the actual, you know, andAnd that was, for me, that was such a breakup moment, you know, like in any relationship,
including relationship with our job.
That was such a big crack that I didn't come back from it.
(33:26):
You know, I left academia 10 years ago because I was like, oh, this is how a lot ofresearchers think.
And then on top of that, really hearing also that real like research that we know wouldmake real change, like systemic interventions, like, you know,
I used to be in HIV research.
You know what would be great for HIV research and trans folks?
(33:47):
Housing, appropriate employment, less discrimination in healthcare.
But that is not what's going to get funded.
And so was like, so are we just perpetuating the system or are we truly caring about ourcommunities?
And that's the thing.
It's like...
You know, when I think about marketing through that lens, it's not, I'm not trying to sellsomething.
(34:10):
I'm just trying to shop and hopefully people.
ohappreciate what I got to offer.
And if they don't, that doesn't mean that what I have to offer has no value.
Right?
And it's so, but that's so counter culturally, right?
It's like, because our success is measured by like, how many books have you sold?
How many zeros are after your salary, right?
(34:34):
How many, you know, in a culture where this myth of linear progress and we can have moreand more and more and more, like,
That is how we're measured.
And what you are talking about is very different.
What you're talking about is about building relationship, being authentic in that we canbe authentic and build those relationships in ways that hopefully support us.
(34:58):
It's a practice of community building in a lot of ways what you do, right?
That's how I see it.
that's how I feel it.
don't want to, I don't want to claim those words in part because I'm like, I don't want mymarketing consulting work to be community building work or like organizing work.
You know what I mean?
know what you mean.
Yeah.
(35:19):
And that's got integrity.
Thank you for naming that.
But you do some community building.
feel like that's a big part of what I want to do or what I see us being a part of rightnow.
I'm thinking about, look, if the old school model is, you know, the news is on and it'sterrible on the television, and then we go back to the sitcom and we get distracted, and
(35:44):
then you go back to the commercial and then you get distracted on this thing you need tobuy.
It's like, look, okay, so this is happening on the internet now, right?
Yes.
I am seeing an ad for, you know, bathing suits or some crack, right?
Yeah, face products, whatever it is, alongside, I mean, let's just, right?
(36:07):
Like an incredible amount of atrocities that we are witnessing on our phones, it'sunprecedented in the human experience.
And we're seeing it alongside news aboutemerging dictators and we're seeing it alongside advertisements for garbage and then we're
seeing yoga and wellness people like, let me free your divine feminine and come on thisyoga retreat with me to like Mexico or Cabo San Lucas or you know, whatever.
(36:38):
It's like how, I'm sorry, I think we need to do this differently.
I think we need to understand that the landscape is changing, the human experience ischanging and the more we
miss a tune, the more we ignore, the more we bypass and pretend that things are somethingthat they're not, the less of an impact we're going to make in our work.
(37:00):
And I know that most people who became entrepreneurs didn't just do it because theythought it was going to be an easy way to make money.
Like they did it because they want to do something with their work, you know?
I mean, if anybody is doing it to make money, I'm like, good luck to you if you're makingmoney, but I sure would do better getting a W-2 job personally.
I mean, you know, we've had this conversation personally.
(37:21):
like, I'm always like, should I just get a job job?
I could just go be a clinical director somewhere or go back to academia.
That would give me more financial stability to be completely honest.
But it would take all the life energy and capacity I have.
to potentially do work that I don't fully believe in because it's very hard to findsystems that can truly practice abolitionist values, for example, mental health.
(37:46):
And I even tried to create some of those systems and it's not that easy to survive.
you know, in this health tape in a lot of different ways when you truly embrace yourvalues.
And so maybe that's a good segue to also talk about how a lot of your work embraces crossmovement solidarity to name another disability justice principle.
(38:08):
Cause that's one of the things I really appreciate about your work as well is thatI see, I see that cross movement solidarity in action is not just about gender.
It is also about racial justice.
It is also about uh decoloniality.
It is also about land back, right?
It is like, I see the cross movement solidarity.
(38:30):
see the integrity, you know, and we never even met in person.
Like I found you on Instagram talking about like social media, right?
I followed you for a while and I had my questions.
Like, are you, are you real?
you for real?
You know, and then.
was like, okay, I like to work with you.
And then as we built relationship, I'm like, oh no, this, is a person who truly likeembodies those values, brings people together when body those values.
(38:56):
And so, I would love to hear more from you about how does that cross movement solidarityplays out in the context of conscious marketing, if that makes sense, or your work in
general.
Yeah.
Wow.
I just feel like I have to resist the like, oh, you just call me a good white person.
(39:20):
I'm like, see, that's it though.
Is like, I know that that is in me.
And I also know that there's no such thing as a good white person.
No, you're just a human with integrity who's trying to do the work, right?
Also, it's like, yeah, I don't, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah.
a...
I also don't think it's a good thing or a bad thing.
(39:40):
I read your book, you know?
Life isn't binary for goodness sakes.
Look, I feel like my understanding of my transness, holy crap.
Like it's so complicated because as a white person um who is...
I mean, I don't think I'm...
(40:02):
like to say I don't think I will ever be free of the racist programming and the whitesupremacist programming that I have grown up in.
My work is to notice it when it comes up.
And it feels like part of noticing is the ways in which my gender socialization and senseof self are tied to the very things that tell me that I'm somehow maybe more deserving
(40:29):
because I'm white.
Absolutely.
Definitely.
uhI'm also being told I'm a failure because I'm not a woman, even though my body was born in
a way that's expected to be X, and Z, right?
And so this like dual messaging, this like, you belong here, you don't belong here.
(40:49):
I feel it.
Like I have felt it in real time.
And I don't know how to talk about racism.
and white supremacy and whiteness um and the fight for human rights and not understand thegreat responsibilities I have in this conversation.
(41:13):
And the fact too, like you brought up Palestine and I mean, I was raised in deep, deepZionism and disentangling myself from that was and is both as, it's like the easiest
thing.
and the hardest thing at the same time.
And it's easy because it felt like it happened effortlessly.
(41:37):
It was like one day I woke up and suddenly things started clicking together and it waslike, this is propaganda yet again, here it is again.
Another instance in which I was brainwashed to believe something that turns out not to betrue.
Well, what else is not true?
Right?
Absolutely, when you start waking up you start to question.
(42:01):
I don't want to fool myself into thinking I can do something that I can't do.
I'm going to have biases and I want to be accountable to them.
And I want to be in relationship with people who have different experiences andidentities, not to take advantage, but to actually learn from each other.
I mean, isn't that what like all the great radical thinkers are saying is like learn fromeach other, right?
(42:28):
do the hard work together.
You can't do it in isolation.
We need each other.
And I'm like, if I'm going to show up for that, I have to understand the ways in which I'mbenefiting at others' expense.
And to me, I have to understand, like, man, the Jewish teaching I was raised with wasrepair the world.
(42:49):
Well, what kind of repair am I contributing to if I'm attached to this idea that Israel ismy homeland?
You know what I mean?
What kind of repair am I committing to or involved in if I'm attached to the idea that Ineed to cross the street when I see a person with black skin?
Like I have to be constantly checking and that's...
(43:11):
What else is there?
I mean, I'm with you because you know, like, feel like the older I get, the more I'm like,it's all about relationality and kinship.
And the more I go back to like, for me, it's just, yeah, you know, so much more to sayabout that.
But really, what I'm hearing from you is also like, it's a practice.
(43:32):
Yeah!and I think that's why I'm like, yeah, no, I thought, you know, as you well know, I don't
buy into like good people, bad people.
That's just why, this just more white supremacy, more, more colonialism, more empire,right?
The reality is that like, we are part of an ecosystem.
have each other.
What else is there but to care and nurture our relationships, you know, and what does thatlook like if we are in
(43:56):
in extractive relationships and let's look at the receipts, let's look at the reality.
I'm always like, let's see who benefits from this, right?
And let's see, and the reality is that also a lot of those systems lie to us in how webenefit, right?
Like how...
people have been assimilated into whiteness in the so-called United States.
It literally breaks my heart, like as a new uh immigrant who's from Italy, I mean, it alsobreaks my heart what's going on uh back home with the...
(44:27):
return of fascism, but we will not go there.
But it breaks my heart to see how folks of Italian descent in this country are soconservative by and large and what they've given up for assimilation.
And the same could be said of Irish folks, the same could be Jewish folks.
I think a lot of folks have been, were not new immigrants.
(44:52):
I really have to deal with the loss.
Right.
And I know the other, uh, decolonial scholars and black folks have also said that it'slike, ultimately, like actually as a light skin person, as a somewhat conditionally white
person, like I have skin in the game because my liberation truly is tied with yours.
(45:13):
Like for me, that's what solidarity is about.
Like, no, and, and with the, as a trans mass person, my solidarity is tied to theliberation of trans fam folks.
As, as a white person, my solidarity is tied with the liberation.
of like you know uh ofYou know, all of us, all of us, of like Black folks, racial justice is important, land
back is important.
(45:37):
And those things are not just words, they're practices.
And I love the way you're talking about, it's not about being free of bias.
It's not about being perfect, showing up perfectly, saying the right words.
Cause I think a lot of time people worry about that, right?
Well, how is this going to land?
are our people?
What if people, I mean, I've been there, I thought, if I post about this, is this going tobe seen as performative?
(45:59):
And honestly, in the lastfew months I got over myself and I was like I don't care.
People who don't know me might think this is performative.
Hopefully people who know me will know better because they know me and or if people havequestions they can ask just like I try to like be curious and be in conversation with
other people and then how the response gives me information and hopefully vice versaright.
(46:22):
But it's a practice it's not like because otherwise we're constantly driven by fear.
And that seems like a miserable way to live in the only service empire, when we're drivenby fear.
I don't know if that's making sense.
You're so making sense.
And I'm just like, I can't help but think about how the Zionist movement is tied to whitesupremacy and how it's predominantly white.
(46:49):
I mean, from what I can tell Jewish people in the United States who are actually prettysafe, who are feeling unsafe.
And then it's like, okay, well, are you actually unsafe?
Are you feeling unsafe?
Are these two different things?
I'm not saying anti-Semitism isn't real.
I get it.
Like that is real.
And the danger right now is not yours.
(47:13):
Like you are not the one facing the danger.
umAnd it's so hard because, also just talk about, and it's interesting to be talking about
this because in a way propaganda is a marketing machine.
As we're talking about this, I'm like, well, Zionism like really took advantage of anhistorical moment because it started before World War II.
(47:36):
And in my understanding as a non-Jewish person to be completely transparent, but assomebody who was lived and was brought up in the Mediterranean as you know,
skin in the game even just by cultural and geographical proximity to the Levant.
it's like, my understanding is like Zionism already existed, it wasn't getting muchtraction.
(47:59):
And then after World War II, that really enabled Zionists to leverage, put pressure onlike the British who had interests, the so-called United States who had interests in that
region, right?
And the propaganda, which is marketing ultimately,worked really f***ing well.
Yeah, this is part of what I will be writing about, I hope, in the book project I'mworking on.
(48:26):
It's like, look, this is all marketing and branding.
We could even say that the United States itself is a branding and marketing project.
That gender and the gender binary is a branding and marketing project, right?
That the cult of white supremacy...
slash the culture of white supremacy, slash the culture, slash cult of Zionism.
(48:50):
Like all of these things are marketing and branding projects.
What are we like furthering in our own marketing?
Are we reinforcing all of these existing projects that are in motion or are we recognizingthey're in motion and we're a part of that same space, which means we have a
responsibility to shift, we can shift it.
(49:11):
That's why I'm like,Oh, like, let's, I mean, let's imagine this space as not a space where we fill our pockets
with money because we're greedy or competitive, but instead looking to shift culturetogether financially and otherwise on behalf of greater access for everyone, right, to
thrive.
It's like we can use the marketing space for our own activism.
(49:35):
And that can look a lot of different ways.
And to me,It's a beautiful gift that the internet has given us even in the midst of the mess, you
know, is that we have individual spaces where we can express things and contribute tothings and have conversations.
yeah, it's exhausting at times and painful.
(49:55):
And we are able to, would we even have some of the language that we're using in thisconversation if it weren't for the way social media and the internet have furthered our
conversations, you know?
And it is such an interesting paradox, which obviously I'm very interested in paradox,whereas I, yeah, that's right.
So my left arm, my little paradox, do, right?
(50:18):
I was like, think paradox is on the left, discernment is on the right, which I was like, Ican't remember if we chose that placement, but whatever.
But you know, it's like, it is that paradox where it's like.
On one hand, it's, oh, it was in my head and then I would lost it.
It'll come back again.
But there is something about the paradox of, um...
(50:42):
the message, social media, right?
On one hand, that's what I was thinking.
Thank you for your patience.
On one hand, social media is really perpetuating a lot of like, you know, uh terriblemisinformation.
We all know the issues with who owns a lot of the big platforms.
We all know the issue of platforms refusing to like be more.
(51:04):
discerning in who they like uplift.
And we all know the misuse of community standards.
We've seen it over and over, right?
And at the same time, as an older genexer who remembers the world before the internet, uhthe internet and especially social media, because I also remember world before the
internet, then internet without social media, and then social media, right?
(51:27):
Social media and even the early like chat platforms on AOL and all of them, MySpace, LiveTour,
has enabled us to create community beyond our geographical boundaries, right?
And to find each other when we feel like we're the only person, right?
To build networks of solidarity, networks of community, to learn from each other, toconnect with each other across time and distance.
(51:54):
So for me, that's why that's a paradox.
I don't really buy the social media good, social media bad.
was like, social media is just another tool.
Yeah.
I want us to use it because if we don't, who's using it then, right?
Who are we leaving to dominate that space?
(52:14):
And I know it is complicated.
Many of us, our voices are not platformed or uplifted.
and people's biases are playing out online.
So like people are, might be less likely to engage in content that makes themuncomfortable or challenges them in some way.
And that's real.
And I would much rather take up space on these platforms and have a voice and have a spaceand be able to uplift other people's work and contribute in this way than leave it to be
(52:47):
dominated.
by false news, fake news or misinformation or bias or, it's just, it's so interesting.
We have to challenge it within it, the systems.
This is another way to do that.
And yeah, we could say like, it's so sad.
It's almost like social media is not so social anymore.
(53:08):
And it's like, come on, all these things are getting, everything changes.
Can we just count on the fact that things change?
It's also like how we use it.
I mean, and maybe it's my neurodivergence, I'm both autistic and a DHT, and my autismsometimes has a real hard time with people who use social media, just like a stage.
(53:29):
Because for me, that loses the social piece.
I understand sometimes the need to like, you know, limit comment or not engage withcomment.
But I've also encountered the like...
This is just like, it's like having a megaphone, right?
Which yes, sure, sometimes we have a megaphone, but then for me, the social part is theengagement.
Like I like to engage with people.
(53:49):
I like to have conversations because that's how I learn.
And so it's so interesting on how it's become more media and less social in some ways, ifthat makes sense.
Can we bring back the social part of social media?
You know, always say, remember when it used to be social networking and we actually likeengaged?
(54:09):
it's, we've, it's so funny.
So many of us are like uh spending way too much time on these little screens, feelingisolated, looking for some sort of quick.
soothing or distraction or dissociation, connection, not getting it in the way that we'reactually craving for.
Our brains are literally being rewired, right?
(54:31):
Our attention spans are changing.
All of these things, we're feeling more isolated and yet we keep reaching for this thing.
And a lot of it is again, like entertainment, distraction, connection, whatever.
And it's so funny.
So many people are like, it's not fun on Instagram anymore.
Yeah, the world isn't fun.
Like, I'm sorry!Yes, because like it is not fun right now.
(54:56):
I mean also exactly hasn't been fun for a long time.
It's like you know and there's a part of me that's like you know going back to Gaza andPalestine for example somebody who's been aware of this for like 40 plus years.
It is amazing to see the increased engagement.
There is an awareness about what's happening in Gaza that was not there in the 80s.
(55:20):
And even when I first moved to the so-called United States in early 2000s, 2008, very fewpeople were talking about bull cutting Israeli products or...
umknew what was going on in Gaza, and had an understanding of the occupation.
(55:41):
And so there is power in that coming together.
And so for me, that's why I don't ever want to...
see a tool and be like, this is bad, right?
And lots of things have rewired their brains, honestly, throughout human history, right?
I mean, when Forks first came out, right?
what uh is this devil technology?
Vibrators were used to cure like, isteria in air quotes, right?
(56:06):
But like, yes, it's a technology.
The technology in itself is not good or bad, just like marketing can be propaganda.
know, marketing can be propaganda for the forces of...
destruction.
don't even want to say evil because perpetuating this good and evil is another Christiansupremacist.
(56:28):
I'm like, no, this is about oppression, extraction.
This is about dehumanizing and putting, you know, individual interests above the interestsof the community, right?
By a very small group of selected few.
so yes, marketing can be used as propaganda because propaganda is marketing, honestly.
(56:49):
AndIt can also be used to like build relationship, get our message out in the world, get a
counter message out in the world, helping people wake up.
Like, right, you must have come across information that helped you wake up from Zionismone day.
It's not like it suddenly happened, right?
Like, I'm assuming, I don't know, I was not brought up that way.
(57:10):
I'm assuming something, you know.
and that's the thing is like, when I think about these moments, these like small momentsof waking up, you know, um it's like, wouldn't, I don't know if I, I'm sure I would have
figured out this gender situation no matter what, obviously.
And if it weren't for Instagram, I would not have had people who I was like, they're socool though.
(57:37):
Like, why do I want to know them?
And why do I want to be like them?
And why does everyone I think is really cool is actually trans or queer, gendernonconforming.
That says something, you know?
Like there was no representation.
Just like there was no representation of questioning Zionism.
(57:58):
And it wasn't until the show Transparent, do you remember that show?
Did you ever see it?
That show was what showed me the first thread of like, uhThis other truth exists, Tristan, and you were intentionally kept from it.
And even just saying that out loud, I can feel chills.
(58:20):
feel it.
I got goosebumps when you said that.
Yeah, because it's so, it's like, I see that thread in so many different ways of my life.
I do not like people keeping truths from me when I know deep down that there is anothertruth or when I start to pull and see like this isn't true and somebody's still like, no,
it is, it is, it is.
(58:40):
And that bothers me so much.
And I just, I want to be a part of the marketing of truth.
Yes, I mean, honestly, the truth is going to like facts or realities are going to have ahard time if like, you know, if propaganda like, like wins basically that is, you know,
(59:03):
and also it's like.
The truth can be nuanced, but that doesn't mean that it's complex, right?
It's like I can both hold like that I want a free Palestine and I also can hold thatanti-Semitism is absolutely not okay.
And yes, that it is being weaponized right now.
I do see a rise in anti-Semitism.
(59:23):
That is all true.
I can also hold the truth that sure.
a lot of Jewish folks have indigenous roots in the region.
And that doesn't mean that that justifies an occupation.
First of all, the distraction of the sovereign state that existed before Palestine was astate.
(59:46):
There's a lot of like facts around that.
Like, so it doesn't justify the distraction of a state than an occupation and thedistraction of
people but it's so hard because the propaganda is so effective that even at some like dearfolks in my life were like yes free Palestine but you need to not frame me as an issue of
(01:00:06):
occupation and colonialism because uh Jewish people are indigenous I'm like yes I alsohave indigeneity to my land you know and
You know, that doesn't mean I wish I remember the name of the black creator who are justso talking about this.
My apologies about that.
But really talked about how, you know.
(01:00:27):
Europeans were also colonized.
You should know better white people.
You should know what colonialism, what Christian supremacy has done.
so it's like for me, again, it's that paradox.
You know what I mean?
It's like, yes, say free Palestine, but don't say occupation.
Don't say colonialism because that fuels uh anti-Jewish sentiment.
(01:00:47):
was like...
It is not about anti-Semitism.
It's about the reality of extraction.
Does that make sense?
I don't know.
I'm not a Jewish person, so I want to defer to you on this, but yeah.
I'm thinking so much right now too about having been raised.
I used to go to a Jewish summer camp and it was a really, really important place for me.
It was the first place that I found community and a sense of home.
(01:01:10):
And the last time I went there, I went to visit and I was...
I was closer to this version of myself than I've ever been.
And so I was aware of my transness while being on the campus property.
And I was looking at the girls and boys bunks and I was thinking about little Tristan andwhere little Tristan would have gone.
(01:01:33):
And so I emailed them and I said, Hey, you know, really special to come back.
You know, now that I understand myself to be a trans person, I'm wondering what you'redoing for trans kids.
And they were like,Oh, trans kids, yes, we're on top of it.
Yay, protect trans kids was basically the email.
I'm just like.
(01:01:56):
they're not doing anything, you know?
And so, and I'm like, well, actually, one of the truths of Jewish culture that has beenerased is that Judaism once taught that there were at least six or eight genders, right?
And it's like, but I was raised in a Judaism that said girls do this and boys do this, andthis is a part of Judaism.
(01:02:20):
Okay, so that needs to be questioned because it wasn't always this way.
What else?
I mean, it's like, what else are we?
And also in Judaism was never raised to think my genes are from Ukraine.
But I'm even my father had no idea when I told him that he was blown away in part becausewe were indoctrinated to believe that we have some genetic ancestral tie to Israel as if.
(01:02:50):
I'm just like, no.
m does, yeah.
And for me to think that I have entitlement to that land simply because somebody told me Idid, ah and that therefore I'm going to believe that a whole people should be removed.
Again, I can't see this as anything other than an extension of all the other systems ofgender and white supremacy and gender binary and settler colonialism to your point, all
(01:03:22):
the things that I'm just like,If we as Jewish people are taught to value human life, are we actually going to value
human life or are we going to reinforce hierarchies?
And that's not the kind of spiritual faith that I want to be a part of, you know?
Oh my God, I could talk about this for another hour and then indoctrination through theCatholic Church of values that I knew were like dissonant and part of like maybe because.
(01:03:52):
I really look at patterns and like questioning some of those patterns and, now like thathelped me resist some of the conditioning, right?
Cause while also of course being deeply steeped in the conditioning and resisting it and,we could talk about this.
Maybe I feel like this every time I talk to a guest, I was like, I need three more hoursto talk about this Tristan with you.
(01:04:14):
Well, it means you're connecting with good guests then, Alex.
You're doing a good job.
Yeah.
I also think it's so fascinating.
I was like, we went from conscious marketing to this like deep dive into propaganda andconditioning and deconditioning.
But to me, and I'm aware of time and I want to be respectful of your time, but to me,that's come back to it.
(01:04:37):
That's the conscious piece, right?
The conscious piece is, are we giving people tools like...
uh to have discernment, right?
Are we actually educating people in critical thinking, whether it's marketing, whetherit's gender, right?
Umusilla talks about like this, how important critical thinking is.
Of course, critical thinking has always been a threat to fascism and any oppressiveregimes.
(01:05:02):
That's why the education system in the so-called US is what it is, because...
And that's why educators are not valued because we don't think or compensated, you know,appropriately because there is this like devaluing of critical thinking.
Like school is to produce workers is not to support the psychological, intellectual,emotional, social development and to help people become critical thinkers who can better
(01:05:31):
engage in building the world.
Right.
Like so.
funny.
I'll just end with this little anecdote, which is my father, one of his mottos, apart frommarketing through education, he had many taglines.
One was, you know, something about like, give a man a fish, feed him for a day, but teacha man to fish, you know?
(01:05:52):
Yeah, he loved that one.
And I think about it a lot.
he still loves that one.
He just doesn't use these phrases as much anymore because he's retired, quote unquote.
ButThe point I'm making is I never want to give anybody that I'm working with, like the rule
book or the guidebook or the like map, because I don't think it exists.
(01:06:13):
And I think a lot of us want to be told this is how you do it though.
This is the next step.
This is how you become an ally.
This is how you decolonize your mind.
And this is how you grow a business, right?
It's you tick these boxes and I'm like, no, no, I'm going to teach you.
some of the stuff that I've learned about marketing so that you can find your own waythrough in a way that actually feels okay for you because it's the only way you're going
(01:06:40):
to get it done.
And that's not something I can give you from a rule book or a guidebook, just like I can'tgive you a checklist for your allyship.
And that's the critical thinking piece that I want us to facilitate so that people canfeel autonomous and empowered to understand how to use their voices for change and growing
(01:07:00):
their work.
I love that.
And also like challenge those internalized messages that tell us we're not good enough ifwe're not like, I don't know, I have 200,000 people on Instagram who are like making six
or seven figures.
It's like, that's got nothing to do with our worth.
And I love that you're not about those results, right?
You're not like, my people are like making this much money for their programs.
(01:07:21):
You're like, no, I'm just trying to get.
people with some integrity to get their message out there so we can challenge some of thislike overwhelming propaganda that is that is ultimately not serving any of us, anyone
ultimately, truly like.
Yeah.
(01:07:41):
Oh, like I said, I could talk about this for a long time, but I'm to be respectful of yourown time and the listener's time, or if you're watching on YouTube, the watcher's time.
But I always ask a couple of questions at the end of interviews, especially trans folks.
One is like, what's bringing you joy, comfort or nourishment, especially at this time oflike increased trans hostility, as I increase because it's always been here since
(01:08:05):
colonialism has been here.
And so what's bringing you joy?
And then is there anything?
that we haven't talked about that you wish we had covered, so you can answer both, one ofthem, whatever you like.
I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that movies and television are bringing me joy.
(01:08:26):
We watched Sinners for the first time.
Oh, I mean, I knew it was gonna be good, but I just still didn't totally, of course, knowwhat to expect.
We watched it two nights ago and last night, Brooke and I were like, should we do itagain?
We're gonna have to do it again soon.
It's that good, yeah.
So I would say Sinners and...
(01:08:48):
RuPaul's Drag Race are bringing me joy.
Yeah.
And no, I feel satiated.
This was really lovely, Alex.
Thank you for having me.
I don't think there's anything else that I want to bring in and I just appreciate you andeverything you do and your work and your voice.
Oh, thank you so much.
feel the same.
(01:09:08):
about you, like so much appreciation, so much gratitude for what you brought to my life inthe last year and a half and for our collaboration of like of holding ground that we're
doing, you know, creating a space for like trans folks in leadership, whatever that meansto them.
I just I just have so much appreciation for who you are and what you do.
(01:09:29):
And dear gender stories listeners or watchers, for those of you who watching on YouTubenow, I hope you can find em
Your own integrity in whatever you do, even if marketing is now your jam, I hope that yougot something out of this conversation around how we get our message in the world.
And that I think that is relevant to community organizing, not just entrepreneurs, notjust the wellness space.
(01:09:53):
It's relevant to community organizers.
It's relevant to educators.
It's relevant to pretty much anybody who's living in this world.
Like how do we have those conversations that sure they're nuanced, but they're actuallynot that complex if we really kind of break it down.
So I hope that you've learned from this episode and I'd love to hear from you if you haveand until then take care of yourselves and each other.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Gender Stories.
I know I'm always excited, elated, but what can I say?
I know a lot of cool people and I've got to know a lot of cool people through the podcast.
feel so incredibly privileged.
And this season I'm really focusing on trans, non-binary and gender-expansive folks ohbecause I think we need to in the current climate.
(00:58):
I still love interviewing cis folks and cis folks are always welcome.
on the podcast, but I'm so excited that I get to highlight some wonderful trans folks.
And today you get to know more about Tristan Katz, who is a business consultant, consciousmarketing strategy, and equity inclusion facilitator with a lifelong commitment to human
(01:18):
rights and justice.
Tristan supports individuals and organizations in aligning their values with theirmessaging through an intersectional anti-oppression lens.
Tristan's work centers authenticity, relationship, and accessibility.
They've collaborated with authors, educators, and cultural leaders, as well asorganizations like Stamford University, HUBspot, Portland Public Schools, and Porto
(01:42):
Portland.
Currently, Tristan serves as COO and Director of Programming at fruition Growth Network.
And he's also longtime yoga student, yoga journal game changer, and former board member ofAccessible Yoga.
(03:58):
At the core of everything Tristan offers is the beliefThe marketing can be a tool for connection, truth telling and cultural change, not just
sales.
And if you want to find out more about Tristan's work, all the links are in the usualplace in the episode description, or if you're watching this on YouTube, they're going to
be also in the episode description, but on YouTube.
(04:18):
I, full disclosure, I've been working with Tristan for what?
Like a year and a half now, two years, I don't even know, maybe a year and a half.
And,they have like absolutely rocked my world when it comes to marketing and business and
Brooke Monaghan as well, who runs some of the programming with Tristan.
(04:39):
You have both really changed the way I relate to the idea of selling in air quotes, which,know, if you're self-employed, you kind of have to sell your services or as an author,
your books, all the things, right?
We still live under capitalism.
But you really change the way I look at those things in ways that I could never haveimagined.
(05:00):
So I have so much gratitude.
ah So welcome, Tristan.
Alex, thank you for having me.
It's such an honor to be here with you.
It's so fun.
I'm so excited about this conversation.
ah So let's talk about conscious marketing, right?
Because in a way, when we say conscious marketing, it can sound a little bit like so manybuzzwords out there.
(05:24):
And I don't want to be too shady, but I feel like nowadays everybody is an intersectionalfeminist, which is also problematic.
That's a whole other conversation, right?
For so many reasons, especially with white folks.
you know, everybody is, you know, decolonizing everybody.
again, not trying to be shady, but it can be really hard to discern what's a password andwhat's an authentic practice or where the values are.
(05:51):
So when you say conscious marketing, what do you mean in your work?
such a good intro to this conversation because I'm even thinking right now, I'm like, somany people might even think that conscious and marketing are directly opposed, right?
um I guess I feel like, ah I guess I'll start by saying that the way I learned how tomarket and how to promote
(06:20):
and how to grow an audience and grow your work as a small business or entrepreneur wasthrough on the job experience, growing my father's business and his business.
And this was, um I started working with him in 2007 and he was centering his work as aneducator, writer and carpenter on teaching.
(06:48):
carpenters and contractors knew tools and techniques in the trade.
And what we found was he could market products and materials by using them in theeducational environment.
Like if he could just have a deal with this sponsor, then he could use their hammer andteach about like why this hammer is special, you know, for example.
(07:12):
And so the line became marketing through education.
Hmm.
And the whole premise of his business was we are going to market your products, but we'regoing to do it in a way that is actually in aligned with serving the greater good.
You're going to have less recalls on your products.
People are going to be more prepared to use them the right way.
You know, we're talking about building homes and like waterproofing and stuff that like,you don't want to get wrong and your company doesn't want people out there getting it
(07:40):
wrong.
So this was all the environment that I learned.
how to market in.
And in that environment, I mean, and don't get me wrong at the time in 2007, and then whenit really started, the business started evolving was probably in like 2012, 2015, around
(08:04):
then, now we're on social media and I still didn't understand the connection towhat I'll just call is like my other half of my life.
Like I had like all this academic background in studying human rights and studying socialmovements and studying really US imperialism around the globe and trying to understand
(08:31):
myself within it, but not seeing that my professional skill set was something that wasgoing to call me into.
And soEventually I saw very quickly like, we're the nature of marketing is changing with the
internet.
The nature of marketing is changing with social media.
It's now like, it's, it's more clear when we're being sold to and it's happening in anenvironment where we're also looking for distraction, entertainment.
(09:02):
mean, the same thing was happening on television and still is with commercials, right?
But we've also become attuned to those.
And I imagine a lot of us aren't being sold based on commercials.
Like maybe we were back in the day when commercials were really big deal, right?
So now that we're here and it's all happening on our phones or on our computers, whichwe're on more and more and more, I just see more and more and more, especially with the
(09:32):
evolving human experience and the increasing violent moment that we're in.
that we can't separate the two.
And so to me, conscious marketing is understanding, like you said, we have to pay ourbills because we live in capitalism.
I want to pay my bills and make meaningful change in the world.
That doesn't start with the minute I get on the Zoom call.
(09:56):
It starts with the minute I take up space talking about my work.
And if I'm not doing that in a way that is understandingthe nature of the human experience, the collective trauma we're witnessing, experiencing,
the grief, the chaos, the violence, the authoritarianism.
If I'm not understanding that, then I can't actually reach people.
(10:18):
And I'm more likely to further all the things that are leading us away from one anotherand from ourselves, right?
And I talk about this all the time through the gender lens of like, can we please usemore...
up-to-date language around gender in our marketing, or how about not even use genderlanguage at all in our marketing?
(10:39):
Because I don't think we need it.
And I think when we are relying on these like go-to quote unquote tips and tricks andniching and, you know, getting the tagline right, it's, we're more likely to just keep
going in urgency and confusion and perpetuating all these things that are causing so manyof us.
(11:00):
real pain, oppression, marginalization, et cetera.
So how can we do both in this space?
Move forward socially in the fight for human rights and social justice and pay ourselvesand also do it in a way that's accessible so that we're sustaining ourselves while we're
also supporting other people.
Absolutely.
And I'm even thinking about one of the principles from disability justice and especiallyat the moment, every time I say disability justice, I think about Patti Burns because she
(11:30):
died pretty recently in the last few months.
And so I just have so much gratitude for her work and the work of Sins Invalid and ofcourse the work of so many other disability justice activists alongside Patti.
But I'm thinking about the sustainability piece, especially as an aging disabled person,right?
It's like forMe marketing some of my content is also about sustainability on my services, right?
(11:52):
Like if I'm going to show up in my life or in community, I need to some resources while welive under capitalism because we don't yet have the network of care that we need.
So it's like that both and.
And you do work with a lot of minoritized uh providers, mostly in the wellness space,which is also an interesting space to be in.
(12:14):
uhbecause it has been and it continues to be so harmful.
So I sit like, go, go for it.
I see it.
You've got things to say.
oh seriously.
I mean, it's just so interesting because, you know, I started practicing yoga in 2000.
I was 20 years old and it was in California and I didn't know my gender or sexualityreally at the time.
(12:43):
so, and you know, I'm a small bodied, somewhat flexible white person who was movingthrough the world at the time as a woman.
I'm not successfully in time inside, but I was benefiting in some way from theheteronormative and the cis normative environment of yoga in the United States, in
(13:05):
California, in the two thousands, right?
Um, and the more I start, it's so interesting how like the practices of yoga led me intofinally hearing my body, which took, I mean, that was 2000 when I started.
It was 2018, by the time I was able to hear something in my body around my gender.
(13:32):
So it took me 18 years of practice and all kinds of other life experiences, of course, torecognize that, um yes, this was an environment that was giving me great healing, the
wellness space, quote unquote.
Um, and there were lots of ways in which I was welcomed and affirmed and normalized andincluded and, and belonged, right.
(13:55):
and I always felt the unbelonging.
I always felt something wasn't right.
And, and that I couldn't just rest easy in those spaces.
And when I started advocating for change in yoga spaces prior to the COVID2020 pandemic, I was met with a lot of confusion and pushback.
(14:23):
And what I found was a lot of spiritual bypassing and clinging to the narrative that weare all one and that these spaces aren't meant for us to um bring in politics or some
garbage, you know?
And yeah.
(14:44):
that rhetoric absolutely.
mAnd then I found Michelle Cassandra Johnson's work.
Yeah.
uhWe should explain that in the coaching group that Tristan and Brooke read whenever Tristan
names Michelle Cassandra Johnson, we will take a drink of water ah because Michelle isamazing and Michelle's work is amazing.
(15:10):
So anyway, you found Michelle.
I found Michelle, it was 2018, it was around the same time that I was pulling on thethread of my body's messaging around pronouns in particular in gendered language.
I was pulling on that thread and I found her first book, Skill in Action.
And it's funny, I didn't know it at the time of course, but I did know that that book wasclicking things for me in a whole new way.
(15:34):
It was the first time, it's so interesting too, after decades of being in...
traditional Western academic environments, it was the first time that somebody was givingme the language of systemic racism and like really breaking it down, like really breaking
down white supremacy culture and how it's playing out in general and in yoga.
(15:56):
And I was blown away and just in line with how long, I mean, I've always been like thiswhen I learn about more
frameworks or understanding particularly relating to human rights.
I want more.
I want to go deeper.
And so I went so deep on studying with Michelle and studying her work and getting to knowher.
(16:16):
And she's been, I mean, she's a friend and she's a colleague and she's a mentor.
She's an incredible teacher.
And what I learned is that I had to bring the advocacy work I wanted to do in yoga andwellness into the marketing, right?
Back through,to like marketing through education.
If I could reach people through my marketing, it would be so much bigger than just sellingthem a workshop registration because I could call people into a conversation, right, about
(16:49):
what we're doing in a yoga space and about what we could be doing, for example.
And so I started seeing that happening in my marketing through, suddenly it was like, ohIf we can't separate this from yoga, we can't separate this from marketing, we can't
separate it anywhere.
How do I demonstrate that this is the kind of work I want to be doing?
(17:09):
You know, and it was, oh, I talk about it on social media and, here we are, you know, andI, and yes, to your point, it is not easy work.
and, uh, fortunately I find that a lot of people really want to be having theseconversations right now.
(17:29):
and they're the ones who are coming to me.
In general, I'm not interacting with people who are digging their heels in or arguing withme about human rights.
And it's probably because I'm very clear that I'm not interested in arguing about it.
If you work with me, this is what we're gonna talk about.
(17:49):
And I'm just getting clearer on that as time goes on.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you attract some amazing people.
mean, the coaching group that you and Brooke ran is like, I think I missed like one maybebecause, you know, I really had to, but it's something, it's a space that is so important,
um, both because of you and Brooke, but also because of the people you bring together.
(18:11):
Right.
I think it's a lot of people who have a message that could really shift things culturally.
Right.
AndYou know, the marketing is not just because we want to make like six figures or we want to
like make a million dollar, like, we want like some easy solution, which is most likely ascam anyway.
(18:32):
Um, but it's because we want to understand how can we show up in integrity while alsotaking care of ourselves so that we can keep showing up in integrity to ourselves and our
community.
Cause you know, when I was working.
80 hours a week in service of academia that was not serving me or my communities, right?
Personally, that's how I felt.
(18:52):
And I know other people might have different experiences.
And so love having found a space where this is really taken seriously.
I mean, so much so that, you know.
You are very outspoken.
mean, you have a free Palestine uh poster right behind you right now for the folks who arelistening.
So I'm assuming it's okay to talk about that.
Like you're very open about being an anti-Zionist Jewish person.
(19:15):
and you know, and you've been very open about that from very early on.
It wasn't like, now I really have to say something because everybody else is sayingsomething.
You are very clear from the beginning and you've done your own personal work around that.
Because that's another piece, like I think that there is a piece of personal work, likehow we need to do our personal internal work if we are to truly show up with integrity in
(19:44):
marketing.
Can you say a Because at least that's how I see your work.
Yeah, mean, isn't integrity is a self and other thing, right?
It like, oh, yeah, it's not, it's not individual and it's not solely collective.
It's both, right?
(20:04):
And I feel like I have to have integrity to myself, not first or most, but it is, youknow, it's an ex, it's both.
I, anytime.
I'm shown something that I don't understand or don't yet know.
I want to understand more.
(20:24):
And to me, that's a big part of how I keep practicing.
Right.
Um, and I feel like there's a lot of talk in dominant marketing conversation that isemphasizing, like show your results.
Yes.
maybe not show your work, right?
Like here's the blueprint, just buy the blueprint, buy the template and you too can dothis thing that I did.
(20:51):
Or, you know, my clients are making six figures, you too can make six figures or, youknow, I don't, and it is, it's a lot of, it feels like false promises.
Yeah, go ahead.
I mean, most of the time it probably is quite frankly, because all the sides of like make,you know, $10,000 a month working for this, for hours a week or something.
(21:18):
I'm like, come on, like...
The only people who can make that kind of money working for hours a week are people withintergenerational wealth or CEOs of like large companies.
And that's part of the lies though, right?
It's like, it's what keeps us stack also in white supremacy, right?
It's like you too could be one of the 1 % and could be rich if you just crack the secretformula or the code, right?
(21:44):
And it gets ingrained because even I was like, must be, you know, I had my moments of Imust be something wrong, right?
Because it's like,My platform is not as big as some of my books, like gender traumas are like two awards,
but it's not covered by pretty much any press.
It's only sold like a few hundred copies, but everybody who's read it loves it by andlarge.
(22:05):
And so I'm like, I must be doing something wrong, right?
But actually what has been really amazing working with you and Brooke and also being in acommunity of people.
You can have incredible content.
You can also have a really large platform on social media and still not see those resultsin air quotes because it's much more complicated than that.
(22:27):
It's so much more complicated and I hear so many people who are like so high integrity andlike really care about their work and have a body of work that they have grown over the
years.
And they're like, what if I must be doing something wrong because my Instagram audience isthis or my newsletter audience is this, or I only get this many clicks when I send out a
(22:48):
newsletter.
And I just, I want us to focus on not to say that those feelings aren't something to payattention to and dig into.
What I am thinking though is the fact that it's easy to get lost in these numbers and themetrics and the idea that we're doing something wrong if it doesn't look a certain way.
(23:09):
And I keep thinking like, why did we start working for ourselves to begin with?
Right?
It's to free ourselves from the confines of how we've been taught it's supposed to bedone.
And I want to figure out how I can work for myselfand not work as my identity.
(23:31):
uh And I know that I can only do that if I'm financially sustainable because when I am infear, financial fear, work becomes my whole life for understandable reasons, right?
So if I can find a way to sustain myself and yeah, it's not gonna be through just reaching10.
(23:52):
thousand followers on Instagram if we can't back that up with like an actual business,right?
And that's the other thing that I think is so interesting is this like influencer cultureand the way effective content can mask the fact that there is no business or that people
don't really know how to position themselves in the work they do.
They only know how to create content.
(24:14):
Like there's just, there's so much mess out there.
And then I think about to your point howIt's the narratives of who's winning and how to win as if that's a thing are white
dominated and they're cis dominated and they're hetero dominated and they're able list andthe list goes on and those of us who are experiencing marginalization or, you know, social
(24:35):
othering em are then internalizing even further that we're getting it wrong.
Exactly.
And that's the piece about individual and relational integrity, right?
Because it's like, um there's something there.
(24:56):
Bear with me listeners, because it might take me a minute to get there.
uh But there's something there about how even people who supposedly seem to have thosesocial justice values will still say things that perpetuate
oppression.
So I've heard this so many times from therapists and somatic practitioners, you have tocharge what you're worth.
(25:19):
And I was like, my worth is not described by what I charge.
However, what I've learned in my work with you is I need to charge what is sustainable.
So that can do the work that makes me feel whole and compensated, which a lot of the timeis work that's free or low cost for my community.
But I can't do the work.
Because I don't have intergenerational wealth.
I have some financial stability.
(25:41):
I've brought myself firmly into some level of questionable middle class as an immigrant.
And I say questionable because I feel it could be taken away at any moment in a lot ofdifferent ways.
And so to do that, I need to work that's sustainable.
But that doesn't mean that if I'm seeing somebody for free or if I'm charging less, I'mworth less in airport.
(26:05):
Right?
And it's just, you know what I mean?
And there's just something there about how people can have the right values in theirquote.
And we have done it, we can all do it.
Like we internalize this bullshit and we keep regurgitating it to each other.
And then it feels like personal failure, right?
I must be doing something wrong if I'm not making enough money.
(26:28):
I must be doing something wrong if my master just not getting out there.
I must be doing something wrong if my book is not in New York Times bestseller.
Don't even get me started on the con that is like the old publishing industry, New YorkTimes reviews.
Like there's so much to be said about that.
And like, you know what I mean though?
Like.
because also Alex, when I think about, okay, so I'm following someone right now onInstagram who is just got onto the New York Times bestseller list the same frickin week
(26:55):
that their book came out.
Good for them, you know?
Good for them!And, man, did I watch them and they're still hustling, right?
Like book tour, book tour, book gig, book gig.
I'm even thinking about Dean Spade.
Not on the bestseller list, but should be.
uh oh everywhere, right?
(27:17):
Like every podcast, every week there's a new podcast, every week there's a new virtualevent or an in-person event.
Like Dean is working so hard to spread awareness of that new book and good for Dean.
We don't all have it in us to travel or to schedule, you know, this many podcastinterviews and to put the kind of like marketing and promotional.
(27:41):
time and energy and labor to make sure that the book has a big audience.
it's like the work still needs to reach people.
So we do it in the ways that we can.
And it doesn't this comparison.
It's so hard under capitalism because the narrative is easy.
It's easy to think, well, Dean must be doing great financially.
(28:04):
Right.
No.
people don't understand, it's like so many of those things, it's a labor of love.
Like I don't monetize gender stories.
I actually spend money on the podcast because I need a recording platform and I need thedisseminating platform, right?
And book events are not paid by a large, mean, very rarely, unless maybe, maybe if you dosomething with higher education and even then it's like, you know, maybe you break even.
(28:32):
But like in bookstores, like it's,It's a symbiotic relationship, right?
Like your travel is not paid usually, book events are not paid, podcast appearances arenot paid, media appearances are not paid.
And when you create content, like I love creating content for the love of creatingcontent.
Actually, that's one of the things I really got to like, I'm like, I'm an educator atheart.
(28:54):
And I've really been disillusioned by um the way the education, especially in theso-called United States is organized.
And so I want to get information out toin a way that's accessible.
That's what drives me, right?
And that is all free labor.
It takes time, it takes energy, and it's like physical, emotional, cognitive labor, not tospeak then about the social stuff that can come at you.
(29:18):
The risk of disability, the risk of doxing for minoritized people in this moment, right?
The risk of being targeted.
And so it's like none of those things are simple.
And that's what I love about your work is like, it's not like, you know, so muchtraditional marketing, let's call it, our quotes.
uh really capitalizes on dominant oppressive values, like create a sense of scarcity.
(29:42):
There's only 50 seats left in this workshop, right?
I mean, I fall into that too, right?
I should say registration is limited for in-person events.
I was like, well, registration is always limited for in-person events because you have acapacity issue.
Like that's just reality.
uh But like traditional marketing encourages like this sense of scarcity, fear ofout, try FOMO, and comparing our insights to other people's outsides, which social media
(30:05):
definitely has a role in that, I think.
it leverages our fear and what you are trying to do is something different.
You are encouraging people to show up authentically and build relationship.
(30:26):
At least that's how I feel, right?
Like so much of your work.
I think our marketing is so much bigger than just the transaction.
think traditional marketing conversations are entirely focused on the transaction and Iwant to focus on something bigger.
I know the transaction will come if I keep showing up in like honor of myself and thelarger why of my work.
(30:52):
Like if I can keep connecting to the larger why of my work, then I can let go of like,Even when I market a workshop online and I, like I am right now, I feel like I'm putting
in so much energy.
If I don't get people signed up, this is going to be such a failure because I will havespent all this time sharing all this marketing content.
(31:13):
And if nobody comes in, it's such a, no, what if it's not a failure?
What if me talking about my work over and over and over again in different ways isactually part of the point?
Whether anybody ever comes to pay for this particular training, I, the work is to keepputting myself out there, not in a way that is misattuned or oblivious or bypassing.
(31:38):
Um, but in a way that is understanding what we're experiencing, what people might benefitfrom hearing and what my why is, right?
Because it is, it's about the relationship and the bigger purpose.
And if I can keep my eye on that.
and then do the backend work to like be skillful with my prices, be skillful with myofferings, you know?
(32:01):
Then I think I can trust that I'll reach my bottom line financially and it won't, I mean,there's so many times where I've gotten messages from people that are like, you don't have
a lead magnet or a sales funnel?
And I'm like, no, my body told me no.
My body said no, that felt icky and I don't wanna do it and so I didn't.
(32:21):
Yep.
And that's the kind of marketing I want to be in is like, you don't want to be onInstagram?
Great.
Let's find out another place for you to get in front of new eyes because they are outthere.
You don't have to sell your soul in order to pay your bills.
And I feel like I was told that I did and I can't.
Absolutely, oh absolutely.
(32:43):
mean, honestly.
Even in academia, which that is a place where it shouldn't happen, as a researcher, like Iwas told, why do you still show up in community?
You've built enough trust with community members, you know, and you're working so much.
And I was like, I'm not showing up in community as a tool to get research participants orbuild relationships.
(33:05):
I'm showing up in community because I'm part of the community.
You know, I'm not as, I'm not separate.
I was like, what the actual, you know, andAnd that was, for me, that was such a breakup moment, you know, like in any relationship,
including relationship with our job.
That was such a big crack that I didn't come back from it.
(33:26):
You know, I left academia 10 years ago because I was like, oh, this is how a lot ofresearchers think.
And then on top of that, really hearing also that real like research that we know wouldmake real change, like systemic interventions, like, you know,
I used to be in HIV research.
You know what would be great for HIV research and trans folks?
(33:47):
Housing, appropriate employment, less discrimination in healthcare.
But that is not what's going to get funded.
And so was like, so are we just perpetuating the system or are we truly caring about ourcommunities?
And that's the thing.
It's like...
You know, when I think about marketing through that lens, it's not, I'm not trying to sellsomething.
(34:10):
I'm just trying to shop and hopefully people.
ohappreciate what I got to offer.
And if they don't, that doesn't mean that what I have to offer has no value.
Right?
And it's so, but that's so counter culturally, right?
It's like, because our success is measured by like, how many books have you sold?
How many zeros are after your salary, right?
(34:34):
How many, you know, in a culture where this myth of linear progress and we can have moreand more and more and more, like,
That is how we're measured.
And what you are talking about is very different.
What you're talking about is about building relationship, being authentic in that we canbe authentic and build those relationships in ways that hopefully support us.
(34:58):
It's a practice of community building in a lot of ways what you do, right?
That's how I see it.
that's how I feel it.
don't want to, I don't want to claim those words in part because I'm like, I don't want mymarketing consulting work to be community building work or like organizing work.
You know what I mean?
know what you mean.
Yeah.
(35:19):
And that's got integrity.
Thank you for naming that.
But you do some community building.
feel like that's a big part of what I want to do or what I see us being a part of rightnow.
I'm thinking about, look, if the old school model is, you know, the news is on and it'sterrible on the television, and then we go back to the sitcom and we get distracted, and
(35:44):
then you go back to the commercial and then you get distracted on this thing you need tobuy.
It's like, look, okay, so this is happening on the internet now, right?
Yes.
I am seeing an ad for, you know, bathing suits or some crack, right?
Yeah, face products, whatever it is, alongside, I mean, let's just, right?
(36:07):
Like an incredible amount of atrocities that we are witnessing on our phones, it'sunprecedented in the human experience.
And we're seeing it alongside news aboutemerging dictators and we're seeing it alongside advertisements for garbage and then we're
seeing yoga and wellness people like, let me free your divine feminine and come on thisyoga retreat with me to like Mexico or Cabo San Lucas or you know, whatever.
(36:38):
It's like how, I'm sorry, I think we need to do this differently.
I think we need to understand that the landscape is changing, the human experience ischanging and the more we
miss a tune, the more we ignore, the more we bypass and pretend that things are somethingthat they're not, the less of an impact we're going to make in our work.
(37:00):
And I know that most people who became entrepreneurs didn't just do it because theythought it was going to be an easy way to make money.
Like they did it because they want to do something with their work, you know?
I mean, if anybody is doing it to make money, I'm like, good luck to you if you're makingmoney, but I sure would do better getting a W-2 job personally.
I mean, you know, we've had this conversation personally.
(37:21):
like, I'm always like, should I just get a job job?
I could just go be a clinical director somewhere or go back to academia.
That would give me more financial stability to be completely honest.
But it would take all the life energy and capacity I have.
to potentially do work that I don't fully believe in because it's very hard to findsystems that can truly practice abolitionist values, for example, mental health.
(37:46):
And I even tried to create some of those systems and it's not that easy to survive.
you know, in this health tape in a lot of different ways when you truly embrace yourvalues.
And so maybe that's a good segue to also talk about how a lot of your work embraces crossmovement solidarity to name another disability justice principle.
(38:08):
Cause that's one of the things I really appreciate about your work as well is thatI see, I see that cross movement solidarity in action is not just about gender.
It is also about racial justice.
It is also about uh decoloniality.
It is also about land back, right?
It is like, I see the cross movement solidarity.
(38:30):
see the integrity, you know, and we never even met in person.
Like I found you on Instagram talking about like social media, right?
I followed you for a while and I had my questions.
Like, are you, are you real?
you for real?
You know, and then.
was like, okay, I like to work with you.
And then as we built relationship, I'm like, oh no, this, is a person who truly likeembodies those values, brings people together when body those values.
(38:56):
And so, I would love to hear more from you about how does that cross movement solidarityplays out in the context of conscious marketing, if that makes sense, or your work in
general.
Yeah.
Wow.
I just feel like I have to resist the like, oh, you just call me a good white person.
(39:20):
I'm like, see, that's it though.
Is like, I know that that is in me.
And I also know that there's no such thing as a good white person.
No, you're just a human with integrity who's trying to do the work, right?
Also, it's like, yeah, I don't, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah.
a...
I also don't think it's a good thing or a bad thing.
(39:40):
I read your book, you know?
Life isn't binary for goodness sakes.
Look, I feel like my understanding of my transness, holy crap.
Like it's so complicated because as a white person um who is...
I mean, I don't think I'm...
(40:02):
like to say I don't think I will ever be free of the racist programming and the whitesupremacist programming that I have grown up in.
My work is to notice it when it comes up.
And it feels like part of noticing is the ways in which my gender socialization and senseof self are tied to the very things that tell me that I'm somehow maybe more deserving
(40:29):
because I'm white.
Absolutely.
Definitely.
uhI'm also being told I'm a failure because I'm not a woman, even though my body was born in
a way that's expected to be X, and Z, right?
And so this like dual messaging, this like, you belong here, you don't belong here.
(40:49):
I feel it.
Like I have felt it in real time.
And I don't know how to talk about racism.
and white supremacy and whiteness um and the fight for human rights and not understand thegreat responsibilities I have in this conversation.
(41:13):
And the fact too, like you brought up Palestine and I mean, I was raised in deep, deepZionism and disentangling myself from that was and is both as, it's like the easiest
thing.
and the hardest thing at the same time.
And it's easy because it felt like it happened effortlessly.
(41:37):
It was like one day I woke up and suddenly things started clicking together and it waslike, this is propaganda yet again, here it is again.
Another instance in which I was brainwashed to believe something that turns out not to betrue.
Well, what else is not true?
Right?
Absolutely, when you start waking up you start to question.
(42:01):
I don't want to fool myself into thinking I can do something that I can't do.
I'm going to have biases and I want to be accountable to them.
And I want to be in relationship with people who have different experiences andidentities, not to take advantage, but to actually learn from each other.
I mean, isn't that what like all the great radical thinkers are saying is like learn fromeach other, right?
(42:28):
do the hard work together.
You can't do it in isolation.
We need each other.
And I'm like, if I'm going to show up for that, I have to understand the ways in which I'mbenefiting at others' expense.
And to me, I have to understand, like, man, the Jewish teaching I was raised with wasrepair the world.
(42:49):
Well, what kind of repair am I contributing to if I'm attached to this idea that Israel ismy homeland?
You know what I mean?
What kind of repair am I committing to or involved in if I'm attached to the idea that Ineed to cross the street when I see a person with black skin?
Like I have to be constantly checking and that's...
(43:11):
What else is there?
I mean, I'm with you because you know, like, feel like the older I get, the more I'm like,it's all about relationality and kinship.
And the more I go back to like, for me, it's just, yeah, you know, so much more to sayabout that.
But really, what I'm hearing from you is also like, it's a practice.
(43:32):
Yeah!and I think that's why I'm like, yeah, no, I thought, you know, as you well know, I don't
buy into like good people, bad people.
That's just why, this just more white supremacy, more, more colonialism, more empire,right?
The reality is that like, we are part of an ecosystem.
have each other.
What else is there but to care and nurture our relationships, you know, and what does thatlook like if we are in
(43:56):
in extractive relationships and let's look at the receipts, let's look at the reality.
I'm always like, let's see who benefits from this, right?
And let's see, and the reality is that also a lot of those systems lie to us in how webenefit, right?
Like how...
people have been assimilated into whiteness in the so-called United States.
It literally breaks my heart, like as a new uh immigrant who's from Italy, I mean, it alsobreaks my heart what's going on uh back home with the...
(44:27):
return of fascism, but we will not go there.
But it breaks my heart to see how folks of Italian descent in this country are soconservative by and large and what they've given up for assimilation.
And the same could be said of Irish folks, the same could be Jewish folks.
I think a lot of folks have been, were not new immigrants.
(44:52):
I really have to deal with the loss.
Right.
And I know the other, uh, decolonial scholars and black folks have also said that it'slike, ultimately, like actually as a light skin person, as a somewhat conditionally white
person, like I have skin in the game because my liberation truly is tied with yours.
(45:13):
Like for me, that's what solidarity is about.
Like, no, and, and with the, as a trans mass person, my solidarity is tied to theliberation of trans fam folks.
As, as a white person, my solidarity is tied with the liberation.
of like you know uh ofYou know, all of us, all of us, of like Black folks, racial justice is important, land
back is important.
(45:37):
And those things are not just words, they're practices.
And I love the way you're talking about, it's not about being free of bias.
It's not about being perfect, showing up perfectly, saying the right words.
Cause I think a lot of time people worry about that, right?
Well, how is this going to land?
are our people?
What if people, I mean, I've been there, I thought, if I post about this, is this going tobe seen as performative?
(45:59):
And honestly, in the lastfew months I got over myself and I was like I don't care.
People who don't know me might think this is performative.
Hopefully people who know me will know better because they know me and or if people havequestions they can ask just like I try to like be curious and be in conversation with
other people and then how the response gives me information and hopefully vice versaright.
(46:22):
But it's a practice it's not like because otherwise we're constantly driven by fear.
And that seems like a miserable way to live in the only service empire, when we're drivenby fear.
I don't know if that's making sense.
You're so making sense.
And I'm just like, I can't help but think about how the Zionist movement is tied to whitesupremacy and how it's predominantly white.
(46:49):
I mean, from what I can tell Jewish people in the United States who are actually prettysafe, who are feeling unsafe.
And then it's like, okay, well, are you actually unsafe?
Are you feeling unsafe?
Are these two different things?
I'm not saying anti-Semitism isn't real.
I get it.
Like that is real.
And the danger right now is not yours.
(47:13):
Like you are not the one facing the danger.
umAnd it's so hard because, also just talk about, and it's interesting to be talking about
this because in a way propaganda is a marketing machine.
As we're talking about this, I'm like, well, Zionism like really took advantage of anhistorical moment because it started before World War II.
(47:36):
And in my understanding as a non-Jewish person to be completely transparent, but assomebody who was lived and was brought up in the Mediterranean as you know,
skin in the game even just by cultural and geographical proximity to the Levant.
it's like, my understanding is like Zionism already existed, it wasn't getting muchtraction.
(47:59):
And then after World War II, that really enabled Zionists to leverage, put pressure onlike the British who had interests, the so-called United States who had interests in that
region, right?
And the propaganda, which is marketing ultimately,worked really f***ing well.
Yeah, this is part of what I will be writing about, I hope, in the book project I'mworking on.
(48:26):
It's like, look, this is all marketing and branding.
We could even say that the United States itself is a branding and marketing project.
That gender and the gender binary is a branding and marketing project, right?
That the cult of white supremacy...
slash the culture of white supremacy, slash the culture, slash cult of Zionism.
(48:50):
Like all of these things are marketing and branding projects.
What are we like furthering in our own marketing?
Are we reinforcing all of these existing projects that are in motion or are we recognizingthey're in motion and we're a part of that same space, which means we have a
responsibility to shift, we can shift it.
(49:11):
That's why I'm like,Oh, like, let's, I mean, let's imagine this space as not a space where we fill our pockets
with money because we're greedy or competitive, but instead looking to shift culturetogether financially and otherwise on behalf of greater access for everyone, right, to
thrive.
It's like we can use the marketing space for our own activism.
(49:35):
And that can look a lot of different ways.
And to me,It's a beautiful gift that the internet has given us even in the midst of the mess, you
know, is that we have individual spaces where we can express things and contribute tothings and have conversations.
yeah, it's exhausting at times and painful.
(49:55):
And we are able to, would we even have some of the language that we're using in thisconversation if it weren't for the way social media and the internet have furthered our
conversations, you know?
And it is such an interesting paradox, which obviously I'm very interested in paradox,whereas I, yeah, that's right.
So my left arm, my little paradox, do, right?
(50:18):
I was like, think paradox is on the left, discernment is on the right, which I was like, Ican't remember if we chose that placement, but whatever.
But you know, it's like, it is that paradox where it's like.
On one hand, it's, oh, it was in my head and then I would lost it.
It'll come back again.
But there is something about the paradox of, um...
(50:42):
the message, social media, right?
On one hand, that's what I was thinking.
Thank you for your patience.
On one hand, social media is really perpetuating a lot of like, you know, uh terriblemisinformation.
We all know the issues with who owns a lot of the big platforms.
We all know the issue of platforms refusing to like be more.
(51:04):
discerning in who they like uplift.
And we all know the misuse of community standards.
We've seen it over and over, right?
And at the same time, as an older genexer who remembers the world before the internet, uhthe internet and especially social media, because I also remember world before the
internet, then internet without social media, and then social media, right?
(51:27):
Social media and even the early like chat platforms on AOL and all of them, MySpace, LiveTour,
has enabled us to create community beyond our geographical boundaries, right?
And to find each other when we feel like we're the only person, right?
To build networks of solidarity, networks of community, to learn from each other, toconnect with each other across time and distance.
(51:54):
So for me, that's why that's a paradox.
I don't really buy the social media good, social media bad.
was like, social media is just another tool.
Yeah.
I want us to use it because if we don't, who's using it then, right?
Who are we leaving to dominate that space?
(52:14):
And I know it is complicated.
Many of us, our voices are not platformed or uplifted.
and people's biases are playing out online.
So like people are, might be less likely to engage in content that makes themuncomfortable or challenges them in some way.
And that's real.
And I would much rather take up space on these platforms and have a voice and have a spaceand be able to uplift other people's work and contribute in this way than leave it to be
(52:47):
dominated.
by false news, fake news or misinformation or bias or, it's just, it's so interesting.
We have to challenge it within it, the systems.
This is another way to do that.
And yeah, we could say like, it's so sad.
It's almost like social media is not so social anymore.
(53:08):
And it's like, come on, all these things are getting, everything changes.
Can we just count on the fact that things change?
It's also like how we use it.
I mean, and maybe it's my neurodivergence, I'm both autistic and a DHT, and my autismsometimes has a real hard time with people who use social media, just like a stage.
(53:29):
Because for me, that loses the social piece.
I understand sometimes the need to like, you know, limit comment or not engage withcomment.
But I've also encountered the like...
This is just like, it's like having a megaphone, right?
Which yes, sure, sometimes we have a megaphone, but then for me, the social part is theengagement.
Like I like to engage with people.
(53:49):
I like to have conversations because that's how I learn.
And so it's so interesting on how it's become more media and less social in some ways, ifthat makes sense.
Can we bring back the social part of social media?
You know, always say, remember when it used to be social networking and we actually likeengaged?
(54:09):
it's, we've, it's so funny.
So many of us are like uh spending way too much time on these little screens, feelingisolated, looking for some sort of quick.
soothing or distraction or dissociation, connection, not getting it in the way that we'reactually craving for.
Our brains are literally being rewired, right?
(54:31):
Our attention spans are changing.
All of these things, we're feeling more isolated and yet we keep reaching for this thing.
And a lot of it is again, like entertainment, distraction, connection, whatever.
And it's so funny.
So many people are like, it's not fun on Instagram anymore.
Yeah, the world isn't fun.
Like, I'm sorry!Yes, because like it is not fun right now.
(54:56):
I mean also exactly hasn't been fun for a long time.
It's like you know and there's a part of me that's like you know going back to Gaza andPalestine for example somebody who's been aware of this for like 40 plus years.
It is amazing to see the increased engagement.
There is an awareness about what's happening in Gaza that was not there in the 80s.
(55:20):
And even when I first moved to the so-called United States in early 2000s, 2008, very fewpeople were talking about bull cutting Israeli products or...
umknew what was going on in Gaza, and had an understanding of the occupation.
(55:41):
And so there is power in that coming together.
And so for me, that's why I don't ever want to...
see a tool and be like, this is bad, right?
And lots of things have rewired their brains, honestly, throughout human history, right?
I mean, when Forks first came out, right?
what uh is this devil technology?
Vibrators were used to cure like, isteria in air quotes, right?
(56:06):
But like, yes, it's a technology.
The technology in itself is not good or bad, just like marketing can be propaganda.
know, marketing can be propaganda for the forces of...
destruction.
don't even want to say evil because perpetuating this good and evil is another Christiansupremacist.
(56:28):
I'm like, no, this is about oppression, extraction.
This is about dehumanizing and putting, you know, individual interests above the interestsof the community, right?
By a very small group of selected few.
so yes, marketing can be used as propaganda because propaganda is marketing, honestly.
(56:49):
AndIt can also be used to like build relationship, get our message out in the world, get a
counter message out in the world, helping people wake up.
Like, right, you must have come across information that helped you wake up from Zionismone day.
It's not like it suddenly happened, right?
Like, I'm assuming, I don't know, I was not brought up that way.
(57:10):
I'm assuming something, you know.
and that's the thing is like, when I think about these moments, these like small momentsof waking up, you know, um it's like, wouldn't, I don't know if I, I'm sure I would have
figured out this gender situation no matter what, obviously.
And if it weren't for Instagram, I would not have had people who I was like, they're socool though.
(57:37):
Like, why do I want to know them?
And why do I want to be like them?
And why does everyone I think is really cool is actually trans or queer, gendernonconforming.
That says something, you know?
Like there was no representation.
Just like there was no representation of questioning Zionism.
(57:58):
And it wasn't until the show Transparent, do you remember that show?
Did you ever see it?
That show was what showed me the first thread of like, uhThis other truth exists, Tristan, and you were intentionally kept from it.
And even just saying that out loud, I can feel chills.
(58:20):
feel it.
I got goosebumps when you said that.
Yeah, because it's so, it's like, I see that thread in so many different ways of my life.
I do not like people keeping truths from me when I know deep down that there is anothertruth or when I start to pull and see like this isn't true and somebody's still like, no,
it is, it is, it is.
(58:40):
And that bothers me so much.
And I just, I want to be a part of the marketing of truth.
Yes, I mean, honestly, the truth is going to like facts or realities are going to have ahard time if like, you know, if propaganda like, like wins basically that is, you know,
(59:03):
and also it's like.
The truth can be nuanced, but that doesn't mean that it's complex, right?
It's like I can both hold like that I want a free Palestine and I also can hold thatanti-Semitism is absolutely not okay.
And yes, that it is being weaponized right now.
I do see a rise in anti-Semitism.
(59:23):
That is all true.
I can also hold the truth that sure.
a lot of Jewish folks have indigenous roots in the region.
And that doesn't mean that that justifies an occupation.
First of all, the distraction of the sovereign state that existed before Palestine was astate.
(59:46):
There's a lot of like facts around that.
Like, so it doesn't justify the distraction of a state than an occupation and thedistraction of
people but it's so hard because the propaganda is so effective that even at some like dearfolks in my life were like yes free Palestine but you need to not frame me as an issue of
(01:00:06):
occupation and colonialism because uh Jewish people are indigenous I'm like yes I alsohave indigeneity to my land you know and
You know, that doesn't mean I wish I remember the name of the black creator who are justso talking about this.
My apologies about that.
But really talked about how, you know.
(01:00:27):
Europeans were also colonized.
You should know better white people.
You should know what colonialism, what Christian supremacy has done.
so it's like for me, again, it's that paradox.
You know what I mean?
It's like, yes, say free Palestine, but don't say occupation.
Don't say colonialism because that fuels uh anti-Jewish sentiment.
(01:00:47):
was like...
It is not about anti-Semitism.
It's about the reality of extraction.
Does that make sense?
I don't know.
I'm not a Jewish person, so I want to defer to you on this, but yeah.
I'm thinking so much right now too about having been raised.
I used to go to a Jewish summer camp and it was a really, really important place for me.
It was the first place that I found community and a sense of home.
(01:01:10):
And the last time I went there, I went to visit and I was...
I was closer to this version of myself than I've ever been.
And so I was aware of my transness while being on the campus property.
And I was looking at the girls and boys bunks and I was thinking about little Tristan andwhere little Tristan would have gone.
(01:01:33):
And so I emailed them and I said, Hey, you know, really special to come back.
You know, now that I understand myself to be a trans person, I'm wondering what you'redoing for trans kids.
And they were like,Oh, trans kids, yes, we're on top of it.
Yay, protect trans kids was basically the email.
I'm just like.
(01:01:56):
they're not doing anything, you know?
And so, and I'm like, well, actually, one of the truths of Jewish culture that has beenerased is that Judaism once taught that there were at least six or eight genders, right?
And it's like, but I was raised in a Judaism that said girls do this and boys do this, andthis is a part of Judaism.
(01:02:20):
Okay, so that needs to be questioned because it wasn't always this way.
What else?
I mean, it's like, what else are we?
And also in Judaism was never raised to think my genes are from Ukraine.
But I'm even my father had no idea when I told him that he was blown away in part becausewe were indoctrinated to believe that we have some genetic ancestral tie to Israel as if.
(01:02:50):
I'm just like, no.
m does, yeah.
And for me to think that I have entitlement to that land simply because somebody told me Idid, ah and that therefore I'm going to believe that a whole people should be removed.
Again, I can't see this as anything other than an extension of all the other systems ofgender and white supremacy and gender binary and settler colonialism to your point, all
(01:03:22):
the things that I'm just like,If we as Jewish people are taught to value human life, are we actually going to value
human life or are we going to reinforce hierarchies?
And that's not the kind of spiritual faith that I want to be a part of, you know?
Oh my God, I could talk about this for another hour and then indoctrination through theCatholic Church of values that I knew were like dissonant and part of like maybe because.
(01:03:52):
I really look at patterns and like questioning some of those patterns and, now like thathelped me resist some of the conditioning, right?
Cause while also of course being deeply steeped in the conditioning and resisting it and,we could talk about this.
Maybe I feel like this every time I talk to a guest, I was like, I need three more hoursto talk about this Tristan with you.
(01:04:14):
Well, it means you're connecting with good guests then, Alex.
You're doing a good job.
Yeah.
I also think it's so fascinating.
I was like, we went from conscious marketing to this like deep dive into propaganda andconditioning and deconditioning.
But to me, and I'm aware of time and I want to be respectful of your time, but to me,that's come back to it.
(01:04:37):
That's the conscious piece, right?
The conscious piece is, are we giving people tools like...
uh to have discernment, right?
Are we actually educating people in critical thinking, whether it's marketing, whetherit's gender, right?
Umusilla talks about like this, how important critical thinking is.
Of course, critical thinking has always been a threat to fascism and any oppressiveregimes.
(01:05:02):
That's why the education system in the so-called US is what it is, because...
And that's why educators are not valued because we don't think or compensated, you know,appropriately because there is this like devaluing of critical thinking.
Like school is to produce workers is not to support the psychological, intellectual,emotional, social development and to help people become critical thinkers who can better
(01:05:31):
engage in building the world.
Right.
Like so.
funny.
I'll just end with this little anecdote, which is my father, one of his mottos, apart frommarketing through education, he had many taglines.
One was, you know, something about like, give a man a fish, feed him for a day, but teacha man to fish, you know?
(01:05:52):
Yeah, he loved that one.
And I think about it a lot.
he still loves that one.
He just doesn't use these phrases as much anymore because he's retired, quote unquote.
ButThe point I'm making is I never want to give anybody that I'm working with, like the rule
book or the guidebook or the like map, because I don't think it exists.
(01:06:13):
And I think a lot of us want to be told this is how you do it though.
This is the next step.
This is how you become an ally.
This is how you decolonize your mind.
And this is how you grow a business, right?
It's you tick these boxes and I'm like, no, no, I'm going to teach you.
some of the stuff that I've learned about marketing so that you can find your own waythrough in a way that actually feels okay for you because it's the only way you're going
(01:06:40):
to get it done.
And that's not something I can give you from a rule book or a guidebook, just like I can'tgive you a checklist for your allyship.
And that's the critical thinking piece that I want us to facilitate so that people canfeel autonomous and empowered to understand how to use their voices for change and growing
(01:07:00):
their work.
I love that.
And also like challenge those internalized messages that tell us we're not good enough ifwe're not like, I don't know, I have 200,000 people on Instagram who are like making six
or seven figures.
It's like, that's got nothing to do with our worth.
And I love that you're not about those results, right?
You're not like, my people are like making this much money for their programs.
(01:07:21):
You're like, no, I'm just trying to get.
people with some integrity to get their message out there so we can challenge some of thislike overwhelming propaganda that is that is ultimately not serving any of us, anyone
ultimately, truly like.
Yeah.
(01:07:41):
Oh, like I said, I could talk about this for a long time, but I'm to be respectful of yourown time and the listener's time, or if you're watching on YouTube, the watcher's time.
But I always ask a couple of questions at the end of interviews, especially trans folks.
One is like, what's bringing you joy, comfort or nourishment, especially at this time oflike increased trans hostility, as I increase because it's always been here since
(01:08:05):
colonialism has been here.
And so what's bringing you joy?
And then is there anything?
that we haven't talked about that you wish we had covered, so you can answer both, one ofthem, whatever you like.
I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that movies and television are bringing me joy.
(01:08:26):
We watched Sinners for the first time.
Oh, I mean, I knew it was gonna be good, but I just still didn't totally, of course, knowwhat to expect.
We watched it two nights ago and last night, Brooke and I were like, should we do itagain?
We're gonna have to do it again soon.
It's that good, yeah.
So I would say Sinners and...
(01:08:48):
RuPaul's Drag Race are bringing me joy.
Yeah.
And no, I feel satiated.
This was really lovely, Alex.
Thank you for having me.
I don't think there's anything else that I want to bring in and I just appreciate you andeverything you do and your work and your voice.
Oh, thank you so much.
feel the same.
(01:09:08):
about you, like so much appreciation, so much gratitude for what you brought to my life inthe last year and a half and for our collaboration of like of holding ground that we're
doing, you know, creating a space for like trans folks in leadership, whatever that meansto them.
I just I just have so much appreciation for who you are and what you do.
(01:09:29):
And dear gender stories listeners or watchers, for those of you who watching on YouTubenow, I hope you can find em
Your own integrity in whatever you do, even if marketing is now your jam, I hope that yougot something out of this conversation around how we get our message in the world.
And that I think that is relevant to community organizing, not just entrepreneurs, notjust the wellness space.
(01:09:53):
It's relevant to community organizers.
It's relevant to educators.
It's relevant to pretty much anybody who's living in this world.
Like how do we have those conversations that sure they're nuanced, but they're actuallynot that complex if we really kind of break it down.
So I hope that you've learned from this episode and I'd love to hear from you if you haveand until then take care of yourselves and each other.
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