February 7, 2025 • 29 mins
Do they know what you think? Are you sharing your beliefs? How long do you wait before saying what you really think?
You're impacting and steering the efficiency of your team. In this episode Lone Rock Leadership cofounder Russ Hill shares why a tight feedback loop is critical to delivering results.
• Feedback loops streamline communication and foster trust
• Seeking feedback is the first and most important step
• Appreciative feedback increases receptiveness to constructive critique
• Constructive feedback should be specific and actionable
• Deliver feedback promptly to ensure relevance
• Direct conversations enhance understanding over written communication
• Embrace discomfort to develop feedback skills and confidence
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
the value of a tight feedback loop.
Say what you're thinking inthis episode.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russ Hill.
You cannot be serious.
Strengthen your ability to leadin less than 30 minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
So many of you suck at this.
You're just not good at it.
Many of you suck at this.
You're just not good at it.
And that's how do I know that?
How can I make that statementwhen I don't even know who you
are?
Like you could be anywhere inthe world working for any
organization.
We got entrepreneurs andbusiness owners listening.
We've got senior executives ofbig corporations.
(00:40):
We got people in Europe, we gotpeople in Asia across.
The point is, it doesn't matter.
I've had so much experience,there's so much data that I can
say with certainty that most ofyou, most of us, aren't good at
tight feedback loops.
Why does it matter?
And what do I mean by tight?
(01:01):
And what is a feedback loop?
Let's dig into it.
But first, welcome in to theLead in 30 podcast in less than
30 minutes.
A framework, a model, anexperience, a best practice to
get you to think how you canmore effectively lead others.
Lone Rock Leadership is thename of our firm I'm one of the
co-founders is an incredibleteam from some amazing
(01:23):
organizations that we'veassembled together, and they are
.
They are amazing.
Lone rockio is where you canfind out more about our
organization.
Lead in 30 is not only the nameof the podcast, but also the
name of a 30 day leadershiptraining that we provide.
We do it in person, a full dayhere or there.
(01:44):
It doesn't have to be 30 there,it doesn't have to be 30 days
and it doesn't have to bevirtual, but that is how the
most of the organizations thatutilize our training content do
it at scale had one companytrain over 2,800 leaders in one
quarter using lead in 30.
It's all about results.
(02:04):
So the problem that lead in 30,the training solves is how do
you improve, strengthen,execution, performance, results,
delivery results.
It teaches leaders how to dothat.
We've got other content as well.
I don't talk a lot about it,but I will in the weeks and
months ahead.
Around decisions.
That's the key.
(02:25):
That's the key to scaling anorganization is around decisions
.
What about changing?
Managing through change,leading through change and adapt
, helping people to adapt?
That's huge, and the changecould be internal or external.
And then what aboutaccountability?
We call it powerful versuspowerless.
So often we feel powerless inrelationships and organizations
(02:48):
and it's actually a choice.
Woo, that will elicit someemotion and some reaction when
we say that it's actually achoice to feel powerless when
you could be leaning intoshowing up powerfully and
leaning into gaining anddemonstrating power, and when we
(03:10):
say power, we mean energytoward achieving the outcomes
you desire.
Anyway, we've got a lot moreabout that.
If you're interested in any ofthat and I'll talk more about it
in upcoming episodes lonerockiois where you find out about it.
Alrighty, so let's talk about atight feedback loop.
I was listening to a podcast, aconversation with some
financial, some investment folksthat were talking the other day
(03:33):
and it really got me thinkingthey were talking about.
This person was making thepoint.
We've been teaching feedback,the value of feedback, for like
20 years.
Like it is core.
It was a big part of um, our,the firm that we used to work at
, where we taught the Ozprinciple above the line, below
the line.
That feedback's embedded inthere.
It's the, the.
(03:53):
It's a key part of being abovethe line.
They call it the see it step.
Uh, roger Connors, tom Smith,our good friends and um, the
authors of the Oz principle andthe folks that we worked with
for a long time.
You know they, they, theyreally ingrained that in our
minds and then you know,obviously feedback is an
exclusive to the Oz principle orthe firm we were working at at
(04:14):
the time it's.
It's embedded in a lot oftraining and content and books
and principles and whatever else.
We're just huge believers in it, and so often people complicate
it and so I'm listening to this.
So here I am with tons ofexperience working with
executive teams on trying tostrengthen their ability to seek
and give feedback, to getbetter at it, because there's a
(04:37):
right and a wrong way, a good,better and best way to do it
Giving, seeking best way to doit, giving, seeking feedback,
and it, it, it dramaticallyaffects the efficiency of an
organization.
That's the why behind it.
You know it's time is wastedbecause we don't say we're
thinking like an enormous amountof time, especially those of
(05:00):
you that are listening who workin big organizations the
meetings after the meetings, thecalls after the calls, calls, I
mean all that crap and you'reholding on to a belief and you
don't say it because you gotfear and they've got it and all
these sorts of things.
You slow down your organization, you lose competitive advantage
, innovation suffers and geteverything.
So I mean it affects so muchthis, this issue of feedback,
(05:24):
and so I want to teach some ofthe basic principles that around
it, and then I want you tothink about um tight feedback
loop.
So in our firm, we, we, wecreated this model called the
feedback loop.
The feedback loop is, uh, it's,it's, it's, it's, it's not, um,
something complicated.
(05:45):
In fact, in my mind it'selegantly simple.
And it's this whole idea thatyou know, you, you go out and we
want to get good at seekingfeedback that that's huge,
that's hugely valuable.
Am I actively looking for it?
Do I want it?
And so am I asking for it inall aspects of what I do?
And then and then this, theframework, and this goes back to
(06:08):
our honest principle days.
One of the things we reallyleaned into was appreciative and
constructive feedback.
That's what we called it thereand it's basically.
It's not positive and negative,it's not the good and the bad,
it's just appreciative andconstructive feedback, which
there are all kinds of books,all kinds of frameworks, all
kinds of models, all kinds oftraining, all kinds of content
out there that talks about it inthis context, but they
(06:33):
overcomplicate it, and so you'remore open to receiving
constructive feedback if I firstgive you appreciative feedback.
So, in other words, we have ameeting and you're running the
meeting and I attend the meeting, and then you ask me hey, russ,
what did you think about that?
How'd you think I handled thattopic or that meeting or that
(06:53):
two day offsite or whatever itis?
Before I get to constructive,I've got to lead with
appreciative.
Hey, you know what?
I thought you did really well,lisa are, and I give you the
more specific, the more valuablethe feedback, and so I'm giving
that to you and I'm giving youappreciation.
I thought that it was the waythat you were.
You were so prepared and Ithought you facilitated the
(07:16):
conversation incrediblyeffectively.
On the agenda were the righttopics.
Then I moved to constructive,and constructive feedback is
what could we have done better?
What should we have done moreof?
What should we have not done?
What would have made thatbetter?
What would make me moreeffective, stronger, better in
(07:40):
this situation or on thisproject, or in this organization
or around this area?
And constructive.
You got to think.
Golf coach, you can see 120things that are wrong with my
stance, grip, equipment, all ofthat.
You can't overwhelm me withthat.
You've got to give me just twoor three.
So the golf coach, the pianoteacher, can see 120 things that
(08:04):
are wrong, but you point outjust a couple.
The trainer at the gym doesthis if they're good, and so he
just.
You might do this differently.
You might stop doing that orlean away from that or lean into
that.
The more specific the better.
So it's seeking feedback.
There's constructive orappreciative, validating the
(08:25):
contribution.
That's the basic human need,the psychological element of it,
what the data and the researchshows.
And if you want to go geek outin AI about it and
overcomplicate it, go dig intoit and you'll find 50 million
different studies and models andframeworks.
But complicated never sticks,it never gets used.
(08:46):
If you're teaching feedback in away or your organization
doesn't have a framework for it,then of course nobody's good at
it because you don't have beentaught them how to be it.
You're not, you don't have asystematized approach that
you're using in yourorganization or in your
department or on your team oreven for you personally.
So that's what the value of thefeedback loop is, why we teach
it.
I'm going to get to what I meanby tight in a minute, because
(09:09):
this is kind of the mostimportant element.
I'm building up to it.
And so you have this framework.
Again, we call it the feedbackloop, which is seek feedback.
That's kind of.
If you're thinking about thecircle.
So I'm up on a whiteboard infront of you or your team, or
I'm in your office or I'm, I'm,I'm connecting with you
virtually right now, it's justpretend and I'm I'm teaching or
demonstrating or drawing thismodel out.
(09:31):
And so there's a circle, up atthe top I write seek feedback.
That's the beginning of the.
Then I draw an arrow over andthen it's appreciative feedback,
give appreciative feedbackwhoever's giving it.
Then I draw the arrow over andit's constructive feedback,
because I'm making the circle soappreciative, constructive.
And then, and then the way thatyou respond to it is with
(09:52):
gratitude.
You just acknowledge thefeedback, you validate it.
That is not agreeing.
Validating is not agreeing.
Validating is, is, is theopposite of minimizing.
And so I'm validating thefeedback.
Ah, that's really interesting.
Thank you for it.
I appreciate that.
Thanks for providing thatperspective.
Could you give me a little bitmore context for this?
(10:13):
Or whatever?
What you're not doing isjustifying, excusing, explaining
, defending, ignoring,minimizing.
None of that.
Ah, that's, that's really good.
Thank you for sharing that withme.
And then I need time to processthat, so I'm not going to come
back to that immediately with ohyeah, we need to do this, that
and the other whatever.
(10:34):
No, no, no, no, no.
Just let it stand.
Let their comment, theirobservations be what stands out
of that conversation, not yourreaction, your reaction just
simply validating.
Thank you for that.
That's really valuable.
End of conversation.
Got it?
That makes what they said theywalk away, go.
(10:55):
Wow, that's interesting.
I think I really got themthinking they, they the way they
reacted to that.
No one's going to be open to myfeedback until I'm seeking it,
(11:22):
and when I am seeking it, it'smaking them more open to seek
mine or others.
Got it?
Okay?
So let's talk about type.
For some of you who've beenworking with us for years, or
you've got experience, whatever,whatever, what I just shared,
that feedback loop maybe youdon't call it that, but that's
that that, for those of you thathave been working with us,
you're familiar with kind ofthat framework or something
(11:44):
similar to it.
Others of you who aren't reallygood at feedback and you don't
work at organizations that aregood at it and you haven't been
trained on it.
That's new to you and um andand so, with that framework,
that foundation, now I want togo into this podcast that I was
listening to, this conversationbetween two people again
financial analysts, people onWall Street, tech folks and
(12:05):
they're talking about tight,tight feedback.
What does that mean?
Tight feedback loop?
And they even use the termfeedback loop.
I'm like, wow, it's such aneffective way of what to call
that the feedback loop.
I'm like, wow, they're likethey're it's, it's such an
effective way of what to callthat the feedback loop.
And so you have to draw that,you have to demonstrate so
people see what those things areover.
And oh, they aren't going toget it till the fifth time you
(12:26):
draw it in a meeting, the theseventh time that you share it
in an offsite, the the the sixthtime that you, whatever, you
got the point repetition.
So I, I'm going back thereoften, okay, teaching the
principle, that's I mean as partof your development, your
succession planning, yourupskilling of those around you,
just you doing it.
(12:47):
Well, you've got to.
You got to interpret why you'redoing it.
Okay, and so, um, a tightfeedback loop.
Here's the point.
Loop, here's the point.
I'll give you a classic example.
We, uh, as a firm, we uh we hada meeting recently and, uh,
we're doing these things all thetime, um, out in the
marketplace, right?
So these are with potentialclients, um, potential
(13:08):
organizations that are lookingfor consulting, training,
whatever we're.
We make a lot of noise in themarketplace, doing a lot of
different things and all thetime, and so we've got these
events and different thingsalways scheduled.
So we have one of theserecently and there are some
things that were off the chartsgreat like the team nailed it on
(13:30):
these things.
And then there were some thingsnothing that I um a burning
platform, nothing that was bad.
It was just we're alwaysinterested in being world-class,
the absolute best we could bedifferent, unique, tons of
impact, and so we want people togo to any interaction,
virtually or in person, with usto go, wow, that was engaging
(13:52):
they, they facilitated the rightconversation, they, it was
simple, I could use that.
That's interesting, okay, andso we're always looking to be
better.
So there was some constructivefeedback on it too.
Well, how long did we wait toshare that with the team, the
people that were involved inthat?
The very next business, day,immediately, we go right to it.
(14:14):
Day Immediately, we go right toit.
So how tight your feedback loopis affects a lot.
So it's another element I wantyou to think about, because if
you're, if you're using thatfeedback loop.
You're doing something likethat, you're creating a culture
of feedback, but you're waitingtwo weeks, two months to give me
the feedback.
It's way less efficient.
(14:37):
It's way less effective.
You got to get there right away.
You got to share it, not in the.
I would challenge you that veryoften it's not.
It suggests to you that veryoften the most effective way to
provide feedback is not in themoment, it's the next day or a
little, a little bit later.
And and uh, there are lots ofreasons for that.
(14:59):
Right, you, you, you can nodyour head to agree with me on
that.
Right Cause there could be amotion attached to it.
And sometimes in the moment'sgreat and important and good,
but a lot of times it's an hourlater or a day later or, you
know, you've had a chance tosleep on it.
If there's any kind of emotionattached to it, that's
incredibly valuable.
And then let me give you acouple other pointers, as
(15:22):
somebody who's had a ton ofexperience teaching this and
watching executives and managerswho are uncomfortable with
feedback dip their toe into itand some experiment with it.
You talk to them about it, yougive them an experience to try
it out, and they don't ever doit again, like they don't embed
it in in their operating system,and others understand the value
(15:46):
of it, and even though they'reuncomfortable with it a little
bit at the beginning, causethat's not the way that they
were raised, so to speak, inleadership and management.
It's not the culture of theorganization that they work at
now or used to work at, and sothis is different and there's
some growing pains with it.
But when they lean into it,they see the value of it, how it
(16:09):
is a massive competitiveadvantage to be able to have a
tight feedback loop.
Um, then, that the learning I'mgoing to share with you is from
that, from watching peopleimplement it and seeing the
impact.
Okay, here's another, anotherpoint that I would share with
you when you have feedback.
So I've had an experience withsomebody and I've got strong
(16:33):
opinions and I really want toprovide feedback to them, like
I'm dying to give them feedback.
The absolute worst way, theleast effective, the most
damaging, the way to do it thatwill make you look and
afterwards feel the worst istyping it up and sending it.
(16:58):
It's a terrible way to do it.
Why?
Why do I say that?
Because so often it's just oneway and there's interpretation
that you need and there'sinterpretation that you need.
(17:20):
So let's say that I, let's saythat you make a decision and
maybe, maybe you are my boss,you're my peer, a colleague.
Whatever you make a decision,I'm going wow, I could not
disagree with that more.
Or there's a meeting and Ididn't like I was maybe even
offended by something thathappened there.
I'm not talking ethically Okay,that's a whole different
category I'm talking about.
I just wasn't the way I wouldhave done it.
(17:40):
I don't think it was the rightmove, like we should have done
it differently.
So it's a decision or it's anevent, or it's something like
that, and I really want to giveyou feedback.
I want I just it's important tome, I've got emotion attached
to it, I'm passionate about it.
I want to let you know about it.
The worst thing I can do is goonto a messaging platform and
(18:01):
teams and Slack and an email anda text and send that to you.
The way I feel that might causeme to go.
(18:22):
Oh, and so the least effective,the most junior way to do it is
to spew it in some kind ofwritten form.
So resist.
You find yourself typing anemail.
(18:44):
You're in a messaging platformyou're typing it out, just
resist and then, if you have toor you feel like you need to
send email, read that five times.
For anything that would elicitdefensiveness on the part of the
person I'm giving the feedbackto and remove it.
It's not going to help you.
(19:04):
There are exceptions to thisright, but generally those are
rare, and so this is what itlooks like.
Let me give you an example.
Hey, mike, do you have sometime to talk later today?
So I'm direct messaging, I'mtexting you, I'm typing a
message in some platform, I'mwhatever.
And, mike, do you have sometime later today to talk about?
(19:26):
Uh, the meeting yesterday?
I, I want to get your feedbackand, if you're open to it, share
some as well.
And, by the way, when do I sendthat text?
Tight feedback loop, that's theanswer.
Not a week later.
Not in the moment, because I'vegot too much emotion after I've
slept on it, but within a day,two or three, you'll know the
(19:48):
right period, not a long timelater.
So the emotions faded a littlebit, rationalities come into it,
I've calmed down a little bit,pulse is slower.
Right, I'm smiling and laughing, but I still feel passionate
about this.
This is.
This is important to me to giveit to you and to have this
conversation.
So I'm seeking the conversation.
(20:08):
Some of you are wayuncomfortable with that.
You're stunting your growth.
You are absolutely putting aceiling on yourself.
You got to get over that.
Go to whatever counselor,shrink coach, mastermind,
whatever you need you, mentor.
You got to get over that.
It's going to negatively affectyou in massive ways, personally
(20:32):
and professionally.
It needs to be an area ofemphasis.
So some of you are wayuncomfortable in providing the
feedback.
Everything I'm saying right nowis making you tense up because
you don't want to give it, youdon't want to seek it.
Others of you you're like ohyeah, this is the episode I've
been waiting for because I loveto dish it.
No, you need help too, becauseyou're on the other end of the
(20:55):
spectrum.
You suck at it too, just asmuch as the person.
I don't mean that, I mean itwith love, right?
So no, it's not at either endof that of the spectrum, the
continuum.
People who are like can't waitto give it.
They're super comfortable, theylean in.
They're like yeah, I'm fromBoston, I'm from New York City,
this is what we give feedback.
(21:16):
Man, I can't wait.
No, yeah, chill out, okay.
And those of you that are likeum, midwest, nice, minnesota,
nice or wherever it is, and I,uh, this is like I can't.
Okay, well, just getcomfortable in your current
position and just kind of stopbeing ambitious because you're
not going to be able to advanceand, by the way, you're going to
massive issues with your kids,your spouses, your parents,
(21:36):
whatever else, because this isjust, I just can't go.
They're not.
I mean, okay, we got to leaninto this.
Now, I'm not belittling any ofthat, I totally validate it all,
but it's only with reps.
It felt insanely uncomfortablethe first time I walked into a
gym.
I don't know how to use any ofthese machines.
I'm the weakest, weakest,smallest dude in the whole place
(21:57):
and I have no clue what I'mdoing.
That's that, that's changedright.
That's, I'm leaning into it.
So if I'm going to get strongerat this, I've got to lean into
the discomfort.
Now, years later, I don't feellike that at all.
Okay.
So feedback, so the way that youdo that, hey, mike, lisa, john,
barbara, whatever you mind, ifyou have some time later today,
(22:21):
tomorrow, whatever, okay, andit's gotta be soon.
Now I go into that conversationbefore I provide the feedback.
I seek it and I offer someappreciative feedback.
So here's how that sounds.
Let me play it out for you.
Hey, mike, I really appreciateyou making some time to talk
about the meeting yesterday.
I've got some thoughts that areon my mind about it.
(22:45):
I just wanted to start bysaying how much I valued it.
Appreciative Don't make it up,but be genuine.
There's something valuable outof it, 95, 8% of the time.
I just really appreciate thatwe had that event.
I think that was a greatmeeting, whatever it is.
And then you go into so thankyou so much for that.
(23:06):
Are you open, mike?
Lisa, are you open to somefeedback about it as well?
Yeah, for sure, always, notsometimes always ask for
permission and if the personsays no or hymns and haws, don't
(23:28):
dig into it.
Well, oh well, uh, uh, yeah, I.
Well, you know what, I know.
If, uh, if now's not a goodtime or whatever, no, no, russ,
I I'd love to hear Okay, yeah, Ijust I wanted to.
I wanted to make sure thatyou're open to it.
Yeah, I am Great.
What do you have?
Again, now I'm going to repeatthe appreciative or dig and give
(23:48):
another bullet point.
I've written this out.
I've typed it up, I've got it.
I'm not reading that in thecall or in the meeting, but I'm
referencing it or in, if it's inperson.
I've got it on a, on a sheet ofpaper.
I've got a couple of bulletpoints again not a script, but
I'm I'm referencing it.
And so, um, cause, I've thoughtthrough this and I've tightened
(24:09):
it and it's my main point injust a few words.
So, again, I justappreciatively, I thought the
meeting was very valuable andhere's why that, whatever and
give me a little bit of thatsome some things that have been
on my mind since then are, Ireally feel, mike, barbara, lisa
, that, um, I'm reallystruggling with this part why we
(24:33):
did that or what was meant bythat.
And before you go deeper, it'svaluable to ask a question.
Can you help me with that?
Can you walk me through that?
Can you give me?
I've just got some discomfortwith it or I've got some
confusion around it.
Would you mind giving me alittle bit of context about it?
(24:53):
95% of the time, the personshould go oh yeah, absolutely,
you haven't said anything.
That's defensive.
Uh, that's that's defensive orthat's that would cause me to be
defensive Just to get somediscomfort.
Oh really, russ, tell me aboutthat.
Well, just give me some.
You know, I, I, I was surprised.
We spent three hours on that.
(25:14):
I was surprised that weannounced that change, or
surprised we are doing that orit just I.
That wasn't what I expected.
And then they're going to startsharing.
Let them go.
Well, the reason we did that wasthis, that and the other, and
this is whatever.
And here's what we werethinking.
And what you're getting at iscontext, process, background.
(25:34):
You're seeking it genuinely.
Before you unload on whateverand you're not going to unload
but before you share 60 to 70%of the time, what they say, the
context, the process they walkyou through, it's going to
soften you completely.
You're going to go oh, you wereaware of that.
You didn't know that it wasgoing to cause that.
(25:56):
You, you considered this thing.
They're going to get therebefore you even say anything.
Oh, lisa, really interesting, Ididn't know that.
You're going to feel yourshoulders relax 60 to 70 percent
of the time.
Other times they're not going tosay anything that affects you
in any way, but you're lettingthem say that, which is, but a
(26:19):
lot of the time they're going tosay something that you're go.
Oh, that explains it, okay, andyou're going to go, yeah, cause
I wasn't sure about that andhonestly, I felt like it was
creating the wrong experiencefor our customers or that other
department, or I thought it wasa whatever yeah, and they're
going to say, yeah, you know, wethought through that and you're
going to go and you're done,it's solved.
(26:39):
You know we thought throughthat and you're going to go and
you're done, it's solved.
Okay, that's really useful,thanks.
I hope that whatever, whatevergreat conversation, you feel
great about it.
So go into the conversation notwith just arrows, or a better
way of saying it is don't justgo in with sentences that end in
periods or exclamation marks.
Go into the conversation withsentences that end with question
(27:00):
or excuselamation marks.
Go into the conversation withsentences that end with question
mark or, excuse me, yeah, withexclamation, uh marks or periods
.
You want to go into it withsentences in question marks,
curiosity, and then share yourfeedback.
Yeah, I was just uh, yeah, thisis, this is what, what, what
bothered me, or this is whatconcerned me, and so I
(27:20):
appreciate you listening to it.
And here's what it isEmotion-free, you all
Emotion-free.
Do not send that in an email, donot text it.
Do not go to a messagingplatform.
Do not become the defender ofeverybody else on the team or
that other person or whateverelse.
There's context you don't have.
(27:42):
There's process you aren'taware of.
There's background you aren't,you don't have.
You just no one shared with youmost of the time.
So have curiosity.
So tight feedback loop.
You're not waiting, you'regoing to it pretty quick.
You're waiting till you have alack of emotion.
You're not waiting, you'regoing to it pretty quick.
You're waiting till you have alack of emotion.
You're going in.
(28:02):
And then the feedback loopagain is seek, appreciative,
constructive, validate.
So I got you going.
If I got you thinking aboutthings.
You all.
This is the key to acompetitive advantage around
efficiency, speed to market.
So many of your organizationssuck at this.
So many of your organizationssuck at this.
So many of you are weak at this.
(28:23):
You think you're good.
Maybe some of you are souncomfortable with it.
You got to develop thisskillset.
It's huge.
It leads to innovation.
It leads to deeper teamwork.
It leads to greater loyalty.
It leads to greater alignment.
It leads to insight that you'regoing to gain that.
It's going to unlock so manythings for you.
A culture of feedback.
(28:45):
A tight feedback loop is hugelyimportant.
If one doesn't exist in yourdepartment, in your organization
, in your relationships, in yourlife, it's time to start
working on it.
That's what I got for you inthis episode of the Lead in 30
(29:08):
podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Share this episode with a colleague, your team or a
friend.
Tap on the share button andtext the link.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Thanks, for listening to the Lead in 30 podcast with
Russ Hill.
the value of a tight feedback loop.
Say what you're thinking inthis episode.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russ Hill.
You cannot be serious.
Strengthen your ability to leadin less than 30 minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
So many of you suck at this.
You're just not good at it.
Many of you suck at this.
You're just not good at it.
And that's how do I know that?
How can I make that statementwhen I don't even know who you
are?
Like you could be anywhere inthe world working for any
organization.
We got entrepreneurs andbusiness owners listening.
We've got senior executives ofbig corporations.
(00:40):
We got people in Europe, we gotpeople in Asia across.
The point is, it doesn't matter.
I've had so much experience,there's so much data that I can
say with certainty that most ofyou, most of us, aren't good at
tight feedback loops.
Why does it matter?
And what do I mean by tight?
(01:01):
And what is a feedback loop?
Let's dig into it.
But first, welcome in to theLead in 30 podcast in less than
30 minutes.
A framework, a model, anexperience, a best practice to
get you to think how you canmore effectively lead others.
Lone Rock Leadership is thename of our firm I'm one of the
co-founders is an incredibleteam from some amazing
(01:23):
organizations that we'veassembled together, and they are
.
They are amazing.
Lone rockio is where you canfind out more about our
organization.
Lead in 30 is not only the nameof the podcast, but also the
name of a 30 day leadershiptraining that we provide.
We do it in person, a full dayhere or there.
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It doesn't have to be 30 there,it doesn't have to be 30 days
and it doesn't have to bevirtual, but that is how the
most of the organizations thatutilize our training content do
it at scale had one companytrain over 2,800 leaders in one
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It's all about results.
(02:04):
So the problem that lead in 30,the training solves is how do
you improve, strengthen,execution, performance, results,
delivery results.
It teaches leaders how to dothat.
We've got other content as well.
I don't talk a lot about it,but I will in the weeks and
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Around decisions.
That's the key.
(02:25):
That's the key to scaling anorganization is around decisions
.
What about changing?
Managing through change,leading through change and adapt
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That's huge, and the changecould be internal or external.
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We call it powerful versuspowerless.
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Woo, that will elicit someemotion and some reaction when
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leaning into gaining anddemonstrating power, and when we
(03:10):
say power, we mean energytoward achieving the outcomes
you desire.
Anyway, we've got a lot moreabout that.
If you're interested in any ofthat and I'll talk more about it
in upcoming episodes lonerockiois where you find out about it.
Alrighty, so let's talk about atight feedback loop.
I was listening to a podcast, aconversation with some
financial, some investment folksthat were talking the other day
(03:33):
and it really got me thinkingthey were talking about.
This person was making thepoint.
We've been teaching feedback,the value of feedback, for like
20 years.
Like it is core.
It was a big part of um, our,the firm that we used to work at
, where we taught the Ozprinciple above the line, below
the line.
That feedback's embedded inthere.
It's the, the.
(03:53):
It's a key part of being abovethe line.
They call it the see it step.
Uh, roger Connors, tom Smith,our good friends and um, the
authors of the Oz principle andthe folks that we worked with
for a long time.
You know they, they, theyreally ingrained that in our
minds and then you know,obviously feedback is an
exclusive to the Oz principle orthe firm we were working at at
(04:14):
the time it's.
It's embedded in a lot oftraining and content and books
and principles and whatever else.
We're just huge believers in it, and so often people complicate
it and so I'm listening to this.
So here I am with tons ofexperience working with
executive teams on trying tostrengthen their ability to seek
and give feedback, to getbetter at it, because there's a
(04:37):
right and a wrong way, a good,better and best way to do it
Giving, seeking best way to doit, giving, seeking feedback,
and it, it, it dramaticallyaffects the efficiency of an
organization.
That's the why behind it.
You know it's time is wastedbecause we don't say we're
thinking like an enormous amountof time, especially those of
(05:00):
you that are listening who workin big organizations the
meetings after the meetings, thecalls after the calls, calls, I
mean all that crap and you'reholding on to a belief and you
don't say it because you gotfear and they've got it and all
these sorts of things.
You slow down your organization, you lose competitive advantage
, innovation suffers and geteverything.
So I mean it affects so muchthis, this issue of feedback,
(05:24):
and so I want to teach some ofthe basic principles that around
it, and then I want you tothink about um tight feedback
loop.
So in our firm, we, we, wecreated this model called the
feedback loop.
The feedback loop is, uh, it's,it's, it's, it's, it's not, um,
something complicated.
(05:45):
In fact, in my mind it'selegantly simple.
And it's this whole idea thatyou know, you, you go out and we
want to get good at seekingfeedback that that's huge,
that's hugely valuable.
Am I actively looking for it?
Do I want it?
And so am I asking for it inall aspects of what I do?
And then and then this, theframework, and this goes back to
(06:08):
our honest principle days.
One of the things we reallyleaned into was appreciative and
constructive feedback.
That's what we called it thereand it's basically.
It's not positive and negative,it's not the good and the bad,
it's just appreciative andconstructive feedback, which
there are all kinds of books,all kinds of frameworks, all
kinds of models, all kinds oftraining, all kinds of content
out there that talks about it inthis context, but they
(06:33):
overcomplicate it, and so you'remore open to receiving
constructive feedback if I firstgive you appreciative feedback.
So, in other words, we have ameeting and you're running the
meeting and I attend the meeting, and then you ask me hey, russ,
what did you think about that?
How'd you think I handled thattopic or that meeting or that
(06:53):
two day offsite or whatever itis?
Before I get to constructive,I've got to lead with
appreciative.
Hey, you know what?
I thought you did really well,lisa are, and I give you the
more specific, the more valuablethe feedback, and so I'm giving
that to you and I'm giving youappreciation.
I thought that it was the waythat you were.
You were so prepared and Ithought you facilitated the
(07:16):
conversation incrediblyeffectively.
On the agenda were the righttopics.
Then I moved to constructive,and constructive feedback is
what could we have done better?
What should we have done moreof?
What should we have not done?
What would have made thatbetter?
What would make me moreeffective, stronger, better in
(07:40):
this situation or on thisproject, or in this organization
or around this area?
And constructive.
You got to think.
Golf coach, you can see 120things that are wrong with my
stance, grip, equipment, all ofthat.
You can't overwhelm me withthat.
You've got to give me just twoor three.
So the golf coach, the pianoteacher, can see 120 things that
(08:04):
are wrong, but you point outjust a couple.
The trainer at the gym doesthis if they're good, and so he
just.
You might do this differently.
You might stop doing that orlean away from that or lean into
that.
The more specific the better.
So it's seeking feedback.
There's constructive orappreciative, validating the
(08:25):
contribution.
That's the basic human need,the psychological element of it,
what the data and the researchshows.
And if you want to go geek outin AI about it and
overcomplicate it, go dig intoit and you'll find 50 million
different studies and models andframeworks.
But complicated never sticks,it never gets used.
(08:46):
If you're teaching feedback in away or your organization
doesn't have a framework for it,then of course nobody's good at
it because you don't have beentaught them how to be it.
You're not, you don't have asystematized approach that
you're using in yourorganization or in your
department or on your team oreven for you personally.
So that's what the value of thefeedback loop is, why we teach
it.
I'm going to get to what I meanby tight in a minute, because
(09:09):
this is kind of the mostimportant element.
I'm building up to it.
And so you have this framework.
Again, we call it the feedbackloop, which is seek feedback.
That's kind of.
If you're thinking about thecircle.
So I'm up on a whiteboard infront of you or your team, or
I'm in your office or I'm, I'm,I'm connecting with you
virtually right now, it's justpretend and I'm I'm teaching or
demonstrating or drawing thismodel out.
(09:31):
And so there's a circle, up atthe top I write seek feedback.
That's the beginning of the.
Then I draw an arrow over andthen it's appreciative feedback,
give appreciative feedbackwhoever's giving it.
Then I draw the arrow over andit's constructive feedback,
because I'm making the circle soappreciative, constructive.
And then, and then the way thatyou respond to it is with
(09:52):
gratitude.
You just acknowledge thefeedback, you validate it.
That is not agreeing.
Validating is not agreeing.
Validating is, is, is theopposite of minimizing.
And so I'm validating thefeedback.
Ah, that's really interesting.
Thank you for it.
I appreciate that.
Thanks for providing thatperspective.
Could you give me a little bitmore context for this?
(10:13):
Or whatever?
What you're not doing isjustifying, excusing, explaining
, defending, ignoring,minimizing.
None of that.
Ah, that's, that's really good.
Thank you for sharing that withme.
And then I need time to processthat, so I'm not going to come
back to that immediately with ohyeah, we need to do this, that
and the other whatever.
(10:34):
No, no, no, no, no.
Just let it stand.
Let their comment, theirobservations be what stands out
of that conversation, not yourreaction, your reaction just
simply validating.
Thank you for that.
That's really valuable.
End of conversation.
Got it?
That makes what they said theywalk away, go.
(10:55):
Wow, that's interesting.
I think I really got themthinking they, they the way they
reacted to that.
No one's going to be open to myfeedback until I'm seeking it,
(11:22):
and when I am seeking it, it'smaking them more open to seek
mine or others.
Got it?
Okay?
So let's talk about type.
For some of you who've beenworking with us for years, or
you've got experience, whatever,whatever, what I just shared,
that feedback loop maybe youdon't call it that, but that's
that that, for those of you thathave been working with us,
you're familiar with kind ofthat framework or something
(11:44):
similar to it.
Others of you who aren't reallygood at feedback and you don't
work at organizations that aregood at it and you haven't been
trained on it.
That's new to you and um andand so, with that framework,
that foundation, now I want togo into this podcast that I was
listening to, this conversationbetween two people again
financial analysts, people onWall Street, tech folks and
(12:05):
they're talking about tight,tight feedback.
What does that mean?
Tight feedback loop?
And they even use the termfeedback loop.
I'm like, wow, it's such aneffective way of what to call
that the feedback loop.
I'm like, wow, they're likethey're it's, it's such an
effective way of what to callthat the feedback loop.
And so you have to draw that,you have to demonstrate so
people see what those things areover.
And oh, they aren't going toget it till the fifth time you
(12:26):
draw it in a meeting, the theseventh time that you share it
in an offsite, the the the sixthtime that you, whatever, you
got the point repetition.
So I, I'm going back thereoften, okay, teaching the
principle, that's I mean as partof your development, your
succession planning, yourupskilling of those around you,
just you doing it.
(12:47):
Well, you've got to.
You got to interpret why you'redoing it.
Okay, and so, um, a tightfeedback loop.
Here's the point.
Loop, here's the point.
I'll give you a classic example.
We, uh, as a firm, we uh we hada meeting recently and, uh,
we're doing these things all thetime, um, out in the
marketplace, right?
So these are with potentialclients, um, potential
(13:08):
organizations that are lookingfor consulting, training,
whatever we're.
We make a lot of noise in themarketplace, doing a lot of
different things and all thetime, and so we've got these
events and different thingsalways scheduled.
So we have one of theserecently and there are some
things that were off the chartsgreat like the team nailed it on
(13:30):
these things.
And then there were some thingsnothing that I um a burning
platform, nothing that was bad.
It was just we're alwaysinterested in being world-class,
the absolute best we could bedifferent, unique, tons of
impact, and so we want people togo to any interaction,
virtually or in person, with usto go, wow, that was engaging
(13:52):
they, they facilitated the rightconversation, they, it was
simple, I could use that.
That's interesting, okay, andso we're always looking to be
better.
So there was some constructivefeedback on it too.
Well, how long did we wait toshare that with the team, the
people that were involved inthat?
The very next business, day,immediately, we go right to it.
(14:14):
Day Immediately, we go right toit.
So how tight your feedback loopis affects a lot.
So it's another element I wantyou to think about, because if
you're, if you're using thatfeedback loop.
You're doing something likethat, you're creating a culture
of feedback, but you're waitingtwo weeks, two months to give me
the feedback.
It's way less efficient.
(14:37):
It's way less effective.
You got to get there right away.
You got to share it, not in the.
I would challenge you that veryoften it's not.
It suggests to you that veryoften the most effective way to
provide feedback is not in themoment, it's the next day or a
little, a little bit later.
And and uh, there are lots ofreasons for that.
(14:59):
Right, you, you, you can nodyour head to agree with me on
that.
Right Cause there could be amotion attached to it.
And sometimes in the moment'sgreat and important and good,
but a lot of times it's an hourlater or a day later or, you
know, you've had a chance tosleep on it.
If there's any kind of emotionattached to it, that's
incredibly valuable.
And then let me give you acouple other pointers, as
(15:22):
somebody who's had a ton ofexperience teaching this and
watching executives and managerswho are uncomfortable with
feedback dip their toe into itand some experiment with it.
You talk to them about it, yougive them an experience to try
it out, and they don't ever doit again, like they don't embed
it in in their operating system,and others understand the value
(15:46):
of it, and even though they'reuncomfortable with it a little
bit at the beginning, causethat's not the way that they
were raised, so to speak, inleadership and management.
It's not the culture of theorganization that they work at
now or used to work at, and sothis is different and there's
some growing pains with it.
But when they lean into it,they see the value of it, how it
(16:09):
is a massive competitiveadvantage to be able to have a
tight feedback loop.
Um, then, that the learning I'mgoing to share with you is from
that, from watching peopleimplement it and seeing the
impact.
Okay, here's another, anotherpoint that I would share with
you when you have feedback.
So I've had an experience withsomebody and I've got strong
(16:33):
opinions and I really want toprovide feedback to them, like
I'm dying to give them feedback.
The absolute worst way, theleast effective, the most
damaging, the way to do it thatwill make you look and
afterwards feel the worst istyping it up and sending it.
(16:58):
It's a terrible way to do it.
Why?
Why do I say that?
Because so often it's just oneway and there's interpretation
that you need and there'sinterpretation that you need.
(17:20):
So let's say that I, let's saythat you make a decision and
maybe, maybe you are my boss,you're my peer, a colleague.
Whatever you make a decision,I'm going wow, I could not
disagree with that more.
Or there's a meeting and Ididn't like I was maybe even
offended by something thathappened there.
I'm not talking ethically Okay,that's a whole different
category I'm talking about.
I just wasn't the way I wouldhave done it.
(17:40):
I don't think it was the rightmove, like we should have done
it differently.
So it's a decision or it's anevent, or it's something like
that, and I really want to giveyou feedback.
I want I just it's important tome, I've got emotion attached
to it, I'm passionate about it.
I want to let you know about it.
The worst thing I can do is goonto a messaging platform and
(18:01):
teams and Slack and an email anda text and send that to you.
The way I feel that might causeme to go.
(18:22):
Oh, and so the least effective,the most junior way to do it is
to spew it in some kind ofwritten form.
So resist.
You find yourself typing anemail.
(18:44):
You're in a messaging platformyou're typing it out, just
resist and then, if you have toor you feel like you need to
send email, read that five times.
For anything that would elicitdefensiveness on the part of the
person I'm giving the feedbackto and remove it.
It's not going to help you.
(19:04):
There are exceptions to thisright, but generally those are
rare, and so this is what itlooks like.
Let me give you an example.
Hey, mike, do you have sometime to talk later today?
So I'm direct messaging, I'mtexting you, I'm typing a
message in some platform, I'mwhatever.
And, mike, do you have sometime later today to talk about?
(19:26):
Uh, the meeting yesterday?
I, I want to get your feedbackand, if you're open to it, share
some as well.
And, by the way, when do I sendthat text?
Tight feedback loop, that's theanswer.
Not a week later.
Not in the moment, because I'vegot too much emotion after I've
slept on it, but within a day,two or three, you'll know the
(19:48):
right period, not a long timelater.
So the emotions faded a littlebit, rationalities come into it,
I've calmed down a little bit,pulse is slower.
Right, I'm smiling and laughing, but I still feel passionate
about this.
This is.
This is important to me to giveit to you and to have this
conversation.
So I'm seeking the conversation.
(20:08):
Some of you are wayuncomfortable with that.
You're stunting your growth.
You are absolutely putting aceiling on yourself.
You got to get over that.
Go to whatever counselor,shrink coach, mastermind,
whatever you need you, mentor.
You got to get over that.
It's going to negatively affectyou in massive ways, personally
(20:32):
and professionally.
It needs to be an area ofemphasis.
So some of you are wayuncomfortable in providing the
feedback.
Everything I'm saying right nowis making you tense up because
you don't want to give it, youdon't want to seek it.
Others of you you're like ohyeah, this is the episode I've
been waiting for because I loveto dish it.
No, you need help too, becauseyou're on the other end of the
(20:55):
spectrum.
You suck at it too, just asmuch as the person.
I don't mean that, I mean itwith love, right?
So no, it's not at either endof that of the spectrum, the
continuum.
People who are like can't waitto give it.
They're super comfortable, theylean in.
They're like yeah, I'm fromBoston, I'm from New York City,
this is what we give feedback.
(21:16):
Man, I can't wait.
No, yeah, chill out, okay.
And those of you that are likeum, midwest, nice, minnesota,
nice or wherever it is, and I,uh, this is like I can't.
Okay, well, just getcomfortable in your current
position and just kind of stopbeing ambitious because you're
not going to be able to advanceand, by the way, you're going to
massive issues with your kids,your spouses, your parents,
(21:36):
whatever else, because this isjust, I just can't go.
They're not.
I mean, okay, we got to leaninto this.
Now, I'm not belittling any ofthat, I totally validate it all,
but it's only with reps.
It felt insanely uncomfortablethe first time I walked into a
gym.
I don't know how to use any ofthese machines.
I'm the weakest, weakest,smallest dude in the whole place
(21:57):
and I have no clue what I'mdoing.
That's that, that's changedright.
That's, I'm leaning into it.
So if I'm going to get strongerat this, I've got to lean into
the discomfort.
Now, years later, I don't feellike that at all.
Okay.
So feedback, so the way that youdo that, hey, mike, lisa, john,
barbara, whatever you mind, ifyou have some time later today,
(22:21):
tomorrow, whatever, okay, andit's gotta be soon.
Now I go into that conversationbefore I provide the feedback.
I seek it and I offer someappreciative feedback.
So here's how that sounds.
Let me play it out for you.
Hey, mike, I really appreciateyou making some time to talk
about the meeting yesterday.
I've got some thoughts that areon my mind about it.
(22:45):
I just wanted to start bysaying how much I valued it.
Appreciative Don't make it up,but be genuine.
There's something valuable outof it, 95, 8% of the time.
I just really appreciate thatwe had that event.
I think that was a greatmeeting, whatever it is.
And then you go into so thankyou so much for that.
(23:06):
Are you open, mike?
Lisa, are you open to somefeedback about it as well?
Yeah, for sure, always, notsometimes always ask for
permission and if the personsays no or hymns and haws, don't
(23:28):
dig into it.
Well, oh well, uh, uh, yeah, I.
Well, you know what, I know.
If, uh, if now's not a goodtime or whatever, no, no, russ,
I I'd love to hear Okay, yeah, Ijust I wanted to.
I wanted to make sure thatyou're open to it.
Yeah, I am Great.
What do you have?
Again, now I'm going to repeatthe appreciative or dig and give
(23:48):
another bullet point.
I've written this out.
I've typed it up, I've got it.
I'm not reading that in thecall or in the meeting, but I'm
referencing it or in, if it's inperson.
I've got it on a, on a sheet ofpaper.
I've got a couple of bulletpoints again not a script, but
I'm I'm referencing it.
And so, um, cause, I've thoughtthrough this and I've tightened
(24:09):
it and it's my main point injust a few words.
So, again, I justappreciatively, I thought the
meeting was very valuable andhere's why that, whatever and
give me a little bit of thatsome some things that have been
on my mind since then are, Ireally feel, mike, barbara, lisa
, that, um, I'm reallystruggling with this part why we
(24:33):
did that or what was meant bythat.
And before you go deeper, it'svaluable to ask a question.
Can you help me with that?
Can you walk me through that?
Can you give me?
I've just got some discomfortwith it or I've got some
confusion around it.
Would you mind giving me alittle bit of context about it?
(24:53):
95% of the time, the personshould go oh yeah, absolutely,
you haven't said anything.
That's defensive.
Uh, that's that's defensive orthat's that would cause me to be
defensive Just to get somediscomfort.
Oh really, russ, tell me aboutthat.
Well, just give me some.
You know, I, I, I was surprised.
We spent three hours on that.
(25:14):
I was surprised that weannounced that change, or
surprised we are doing that orit just I.
That wasn't what I expected.
And then they're going to startsharing.
Let them go.
Well, the reason we did that wasthis, that and the other, and
this is whatever.
And here's what we werethinking.
And what you're getting at iscontext, process, background.
(25:34):
You're seeking it genuinely.
Before you unload on whateverand you're not going to unload
but before you share 60 to 70%of the time, what they say, the
context, the process they walkyou through, it's going to
soften you completely.
You're going to go oh, you wereaware of that.
You didn't know that it wasgoing to cause that.
(25:56):
You, you considered this thing.
They're going to get therebefore you even say anything.
Oh, lisa, really interesting, Ididn't know that.
You're going to feel yourshoulders relax 60 to 70 percent
of the time.
Other times they're not going tosay anything that affects you
in any way, but you're lettingthem say that, which is, but a
(26:19):
lot of the time they're going tosay something that you're go.
Oh, that explains it, okay, andyou're going to go, yeah, cause
I wasn't sure about that andhonestly, I felt like it was
creating the wrong experiencefor our customers or that other
department, or I thought it wasa whatever yeah, and they're
going to say, yeah, you know, wethought through that and you're
going to go and you're done,it's solved.
(26:39):
You know we thought throughthat and you're going to go and
you're done, it's solved.
Okay, that's really useful,thanks.
I hope that whatever, whatevergreat conversation, you feel
great about it.
So go into the conversation notwith just arrows, or a better
way of saying it is don't justgo in with sentences that end in
periods or exclamation marks.
Go into the conversation withsentences that end with question
(27:00):
or excuselamation marks.
Go into the conversation withsentences that end with question
mark or, excuse me, yeah, withexclamation, uh marks or periods
.
You want to go into it withsentences in question marks,
curiosity, and then share yourfeedback.
Yeah, I was just uh, yeah, thisis, this is what, what, what
bothered me, or this is whatconcerned me, and so I
(27:20):
appreciate you listening to it.
And here's what it isEmotion-free, you all
Emotion-free.
Do not send that in an email, donot text it.
Do not go to a messagingplatform.
Do not become the defender ofeverybody else on the team or
that other person or whateverelse.
There's context you don't have.
(27:42):
There's process you aren'taware of.
There's background you aren't,you don't have.
You just no one shared with youmost of the time.
So have curiosity.
So tight feedback loop.
You're not waiting, you'regoing to it pretty quick.
You're waiting till you have alack of emotion.
You're not waiting, you'regoing to it pretty quick.
You're waiting till you have alack of emotion.
You're going in.
(28:02):
And then the feedback loopagain is seek, appreciative,
constructive, validate.
So I got you going.
If I got you thinking aboutthings.
You all.
This is the key to acompetitive advantage around
efficiency, speed to market.
So many of your organizationssuck at this.
So many of your organizationssuck at this.
So many of you are weak at this.
(28:23):
You think you're good.
Maybe some of you are souncomfortable with it.
You got to develop thisskillset.
It's huge.
It leads to innovation.
It leads to deeper teamwork.
It leads to greater loyalty.
It leads to greater alignment.
It leads to insight that you'regoing to gain that.
It's going to unlock so manythings for you.
A culture of feedback.
(28:45):
A tight feedback loop is hugelyimportant.
If one doesn't exist in yourdepartment, in your organization
, in your relationships, in yourlife, it's time to start
working on it.
That's what I got for you inthis episode of the Lead in 30
(29:08):
podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Share this episode with a colleague, your team or a
friend.
Tap on the share button andtext the link.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Thanks, for listening to the Lead in 30 podcast with
Russ Hill.
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