May 18, 2024 • 39 mins
When Ben Mandrell transitioned from a biology and chemistry background into a spiritual calling, he did not expect his journey to take him to Lifeway Christian Resources. As a pastor of many years, corporate America was not on his Bingo Card! This episode peels back the layers of Ben's experiences, revealing the complex beauty of life's transitions, the bittersweet farewells to congregations, and the exhilaration of embracing new chapters.
For more information on Ben, visit BenMandrell.com
For more information on Lifeway Christian Resources, visit Lifeway.com
--
Tithely provides the tools you need to engage with your church online, stay connected, increase generosity, and simplify the lives of your staff.
With tools like text and email messaging, custom church apps and websites, church management software, digital giving, and so much more… it’s no wonder over 37,000 churches in 50 countries trust Tithely to help run their church.
Learn more at Tithely.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
uh, hey guys, mike, here with another episode of
modern church leader.
Uh, here with my new bud, benmandrell.
Um dude, great to have you onthe show we're buds man.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I love the immediate affection that's just you.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just go for it, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
You just pulled me right in.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That felt like a hug next time I'm in nashville we'll
either have a beer or a coffeeI'm not sure which one is
appropriate, but it'll be allgood well, only guy that's got
michael jordan shoes in thebackground is a friend of mine,
so I'm loving this I can't.
I would move the camera but itwould be all disruptive.
(00:40):
I'm a bit of a basketball guy,so I got.
I got the Jordan Jersey, thebra, the Kobe Jersey and the
LeBron Jersey up there.
So you know, I loved you atfirst sight.
The legends we can have thedebate on who's the greatest,
but it's another podcast.
Yeah, it's a whole notherpodcast.
Well, where are you?
(01:01):
You're coming to us fromNashville.
Uh, are you in the we workright now, or in the, the
coworking space, or so?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
for those of you who are listening, we just built a
brand new space that's kind oflike a cowork space.
Uh, nobody has their own office.
Everybody comes in when theywant to have meetings, but it's
a very flexible space.
So I'm actually um on this callfrom home today, but I've been
up to the office today andthat's in Brentwood.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Tennessee.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Well, man, you took overpresident and CEO of Lifeway.
I would assume most people inthe church world know about
Lifeway, but maybe not.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So why don't you give us that?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, maybe not, maybe not?
I mean, what'd you say?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
It's been around for over a hundred years, yeah, so
when I was a church planter inDenver and they called me to
come as president of Lifeway.
I announced it to my church,like, hey, I'm going to go be
the president of Lifeway.
I kid you not.
At least 95% of the people inthe room were like what's
Lifeway?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Is that they had one bookstore in Denver and it
closed Right.
So they were like my churchmembers were like hey, you're
aware that it's closing right.
So there's been a lot ofconfusion about that because
Lifeway has had this historicdirect-to-church business that's
really strong for years.
And then there's been theretail piece and everybody knows
retail is drying up.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So Lifeway had to make the shift.
Well, go back so you were apastor for a long time a local
church pastor, it sounds like,out in Tennessee, but then you
planted a church in Denver.
So give us that journey alittle bit and then we can jump
into how you decided to take thejob at Lifeway.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, so my call to ministry was surprising.
I didn't see myself being apastor.
I have a biology and chemistrymajor.
It's really helping me outright now, frank.
Totally Listen, one of my kidsis super into science, so it
(03:02):
probably would help me out.
Because then Itime job at achurch as a college pastor in
Jackson Tennessee, in WestTennessee, and that pastor kind
of took me under his wing and Ifound out through some mentoring
through school that I had agift to communicate.
So I started teaching andpreaching some to no one's
complete surprise but mine.
(03:22):
I did not see this coming.
But they ended up asking me tofollow him and be the next
pastor of the church.
So we took that baton.
I became the pastor of thischurch in West Tennessee for 12
years Great experience.
But then we really felt like,okay, our kids are 9, 8, 7, 6
years old.
If we're going to do somethingmissional and kind of crazy,
like you only live once, now'sthe time.
(03:44):
So we investigated churchplanning and I ended up signing
on with the north americanmission board to plant a church
in denver colorado.
Okay, so we were nam planners,uh planted a church in uh near
golden arvada area and thechurch did really well started
out as a bible study in ourbasement protested by the HOA,
(04:05):
then we moved into an elementaryschool and a high school and
then we finally moved into anold, restored Walmart building
that we just redesigned.
It was a beautiful space.
That's cool.
And we weren't there in thatspace like six months before.
God brought this like reallyheavy decision about, okay,
lifeways pursuing me aspresident.
Is this something we want toconsider?
It's a unique once in alifetime opportunity.
(04:26):
But, man, we had just plantedthat church five years prior,
like it was.
It was really early.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, yeah, and you're five years in.
It sounds like it was growing.
So you're having a lot of funand you're you're watching it.
You know flourish.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
No more pushing cases every morning to set up and
tear down.
We had our own space, we had agood staff, it was healthy man
and, like in Denver, to have ahealthy, growing church was an
accomplishment, right, right,right.
So it was really hard to answerthe call of God to come back to
middle Tennessee, and so mywife and I started a podcast too
.
It's called the glass house andin this podcast we just talk
(05:04):
about, like, some of the veryunique challenges of being in
ministry and like calling is abig piece of that, right, like
knowing where you're called andhow to deal with transitioning
calling Like those are bigquestions.
Yeah, so that's a little bitabout how I got to Lifeway.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Reader's Digest.
Did you enjoy moving fromTennessee to Denver Did?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
you enjoy moving from Tennessee to Denver?
Absolutely, I did.
My wife would say it took her35 years to get home.
It's such a sincere outdoorenvironment which are her two
favorite things sincerity andoutdoors and we just love the
people.
We loved our neighbors.
We really got into neighboringand built strong relationships
and even today I miss the churchbut I miss our street more,
(05:50):
like we just made really greatfriends, like that were
non-religious people, but itjust became a big part of our
life.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Right, right, and you had those kids in those ages.
So it's like totally right, thekids, if you had others in the
neighborhood, man, that ties youin and if they have friendships
in the neighborhood and allthat kind of stuff, I totally
get it.
We still live out in San Diego,but our first house we were on
a street like that and we werethere for 10 years and I don't
(06:17):
know why we left, but we did.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Once you don't have it anymore, you realize what you
have.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Once you don't have it anymore, you realize what you
have.
Yeah, it was a greatneighborhood.
Yeah, so church is going well.
You get the phone call one day.
Someone DM'd you like hey, youever heard of Lifeway?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I get a voicemail of like hey, give us a call, this
is such and such from the searchteam for Lifeway Christian
Resources and we have a coupleof questions about a candidate.
So I go up and I tell my wifeI'm like who in the world do we
know that's a candidate forLifeway Christian Resources?
And she was like immediatelylike she's like I guarantee you
that's you Like no, no way.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
It's a clever way to get a call back.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah.
So I called back, I had in mindwho it was and sure enough my
wife is right there, like, hey,it's actually you, we have some
questions for you.
We just didn't want to raiseany suspicion, like if somebody
else was answering your email oryour phone calls.
So I ended this conversationwith them.
I, you know, I obviously had alot of thoughts about local
church and it wasn't a hardconversation to say, hey, here's
(07:22):
how I see it, here's where it'sgoing from my perspective.
And one thing led to anotherand I was just like deeper and
deeper into the process.
I got asked to enter into thefinal three candidates.
They asked me to fly to Dallasto do an interview.
I'm getting on the airplane andmy wife says to me now there's
a 66% chance you're not gettingthis job Right.
(07:44):
Like at that point we were bothstill like there has to be a
ram in the stick.
I'm not going to actually dothis.
And it was me and two businesspeople, is my understanding and
I was the only pastor.
So I went into that interview.
It kind of makes sense, right.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, it does.
You know it's more.
I would assume Lifeway is morebusiness than church, but it's
serving the church, but from arunning it and just what all
that looks like.
So it makes sense that we'relooking at business guys too.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Totally so.
You either have to have abusiness guy that has a great
front man, that has respect andthe credibility of the churches,
or you have to have a pastorthat trusts the business to
business professionals and isengaged at whatever level he can
be.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So I went interviewed.
They told me it'd be a week.
I get home, put my bag down,the phone rings and it's the
(08:37):
chair of the search team, ben,how do you think you did today?
And I said, man, I thought itwent pretty well.
I mean, mean, unless you tellme different.
I mean right, you're liketerrible, it was absolutely
terrible.
He goes well, we don't, wedon't need any more time, like
we are unanimous, felt likeyou're the person.
And then that that was thefirst time that really
registered with me like holy cow, like this is actually right,
(09:01):
and so let me know I'm going tomake yes yeah, my wife lindley
and I then went through like areal season of like, okay, are
we ready to make this decision?
And we had gone back and forthon it so much and we were just
like, okay, let's do it.
You only live once.
And it was a lot harder than Ithought it would be.
Leaving the church was harderthan I thought it would be.
(09:26):
Starting over and learning howto be a president of a
corporation was harder than Ithought it'd be.
It humbled me to no end.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, yeah, I could only imagine.
I mean going through transition.
Your kids were now what you hada teenager.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
High school, middle school.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Middle schooler, yeah , and an elementary at all three
stages.
Going on High school and inelementary at all three stages.
Going on High school, leavinghigh school.
What was it like to processwith your wife, and then with
your kids, to make a move likethat?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
That's a good question.
I know every family does thisdifferent.
But what we did for the secondmove is we set every kid down
individually and she and Iprivately, had said if any kid
opposes no question asked, we'renot doing it Because we're
happy where we are.
I don't want to spend the restof my life with one of my kids
saying, Dad, you ruined my life.
And we at that point weren'tfeeling like 100% direction from
(10:13):
God either way.
We kind of felt like God wassaying like, make a choice.
So each kid, one by one, waslike Dad, we think you should do
it.
Like you realize, this is likemoving back to a new city,
starting over again.
And they all felt like, yeah,let's do it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So we did it like and that was so key because, man,
if I had had to bring themdragon and scream and that would
have been awful- oh, yeah, Iknow guys that have done that
but I don't even know your kidsand I'm impressed with them
because that was impressive, thefact that they were like let's
do it it.
Oh, that's crazy, like Icouldn't, I did.
(10:49):
Well, um, and we moved schools.
Uh, well, I mean, we went to adifferent middle school than
they were expecting and you know, their first reaction is always
like no, why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Here's the hard thing for people in ministry is like
when you go to a new place.
It is such a bittersweetexperience.
I mean, for a couple of yearsyou literally are grieving the
loss of friendships, community,and no one tells you this.
But, like when you leave achurch, you can't talk to those
people much for a while, youcan't continue to engage them
about what they think about thesearch process, what they think
(11:28):
about the new pastor.
That's not healthy, Right.
So you kind of lose all senseof community for a while.
You're just roaming and thenyou go to a new organization or
a new church.
It takes you a couple of yearsto figure out who here has even
bought into your philosophy,your leadership.
So it's a really transition.
Ministry is particularly hard.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, whether you're doinglike you did, going from a
church into corporate, or you'rejust going from one church to
another church or something likethat, like, or you're you're in
a church and you're planting achurch or you know, those are
all different kinds oftransitions.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And when you're leaving a church, if you act
excited to be going to the nextchurch or how does it make that
church feel Like?
It's just really it's wonky.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of interesting dynamics to sort
through.
What was it like?
So, now that you okay, youdecided the kids are on board,
sounds like wife was on boardand you go and make the move.
So what was it like to go intothe, from the church world to
the corporate world?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Hard.
Our lives were sointerconnected with so many
other people's lives.
When you're a pastor and yourministry like and I mean it's
like it's just the best thingabout being in ministry is that
your lives are just sointerconnected.
I mean seeing the same peopleevery week.
You're marrying and burying anddoing life together.
You're getting to know theirspouses, their kids, your, your
(12:46):
wife may not be paid on staff,but she's honored as if she were
like it's, it's a big, it's a,it's a team deal.
Then you go to a corporatesetting and she's not invited to
anything that I go into, notone room.
And then you know, I don't, Iwork with all these great people
.
I've never met their spouses.
Right, you know, I try toorganize something.
(13:07):
Hey, let's all get together.
They're like what we alreadyhave, churches, like, why would
we do that here?
Like, right, yeah, it took me acouple of years to realize that
they don't need a pastor, theyto realize that they don't need
a pastor, they need a president.
And it took a while for me tomake that transition.
Yeah, yeah, what's thedifference?
Oh man, a pastor is somebodythat's expected to be there when
(13:30):
you're in your ups and downs oflife, like, like, for example,
when I first got here, one ofthe first things I did was make
a list of all the employees Iknew who were suffering, right,
and then I just want to stayclose to them.
I'll make sure somebody'swalking with them and that's
like, believe me, that's stillsomething we try to do, it like.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
But yeah, that's like you're like that was into me.
That's like who I am.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I remember the first executive meeting I had a sheet.
It was like be pastoral leaders, but some of it was also like I
needed to adjust and recognizethat all these people have a
pastor and so just making thatadjustment and honestly that's
what we talk about in the GlassHouse is our marriage went
(14:12):
through a really tough seasonbecause Lindley didn't have a
place anymore and I was amped upwith the adrenaline rush of
leading a new organization andshe was home every day trying to
figure out what life looks like.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
What to do?
No friends yet, no local church, community, or establishing all
those things brand new.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
It was hard.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, no, I could totally see it.
And you have a mission andshe's over there going like I
don't have one.
We used to do this together,yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And I didn't inherit like an organization moving up
into the right, like I inheritedan organization that was in a
tough spot, like they justclosed all these stores.
There was a lot of fear in thewater.
So I had a lot of work to do totry to encourage people that
there was a new vision forLifeway, and it took me a lot of
hours, a lot of listening, alot of time.
(15:03):
So I'd come home at night, man,I was spent and she hadn't had
a single conversation with anadult all day.
Right, right, it's just, youknow we're through all that now
and thankful for that.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, you're like, I just brought it all the meetings
.
She's now co-CEOs.
She just shows up, right.
That doesn't work.
So, um, I guess transitioninginto that, like so Lifeway was
in a spot sounds like a toughspot, or in a spot where some
things had to, uh, betransformed and changed.
(15:38):
What?
Where was it five years ago?
And kind of five years later?
Where are you guys at today?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, I mean when I walked through the door there
was PTSD in the building becausethey had just spent two years
trying to reimagine stores.
Let's, let's try to remerchandise, let's rebrand,
let's do everything we can totry to make stores work and and
and.
It was working for a little bit.
There was a lot of hope in theair and then Christmas season
came, I mean, it just crashed.
(16:07):
That was when Amazon was justreally taking off.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, I was going to say, and all the while, Amazon.
Literally, that was the thoughtin my head as you were going.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I'm like, and you got Amazon over here just going
bananas and traffic was way upin the stores, but purchases
weren't.
And that's what was happeningPeople were going finding the
book they want, ordering onAmazon, yeah, and so we just
knew it wasn't sustainable.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So when I came in the building, the first thought
was-.
Real quick.
How many physical locations didyou guys have at that time?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
174 scattered all over the country.
Yeah, each of those had aunique lease with the property
owner that had to be negotiatedand dealt with.
It was a long process, but thefirst thought was leaders were
like, well, let's just takeeverything that we've had in the
stores and throw it online.
Let's just become an onlinething.
Well, that didn't work, becausepeople who walk into a store
(16:56):
are not shopping for the samekind of things for people who
are online.
And what we ultimately came tois Lifeways.
Play in the future is tounderstand church leaders and
build things that they don'thave time to build, whether it's
curriculum, whether it's greatBibles, whether it's fellowship
cups to do communion, whetherit's kids' activities, vacation,
(17:19):
bible school, like all thestuff.
Especially small and mediumsized churches don't have the
time to go and build themselves.
We build it for them.
We have a hundred thousand kidsin camp every summer, because a
lot of churches can't do theirown camp.
So we've gotten back to ouroriginal mission, which is to
serve the church, and that's whyLifeway is really moving
aggressively into a growth phase, I think.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Right, right.
So did you guys shut all thosestores?
Did you keep them they're?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
done.
No, they were already actuallyall shutting down when I got
there.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Okay, got it, got it.
So all stores are gone, shutdown.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
And so everything is happening online now.
Yeah, and if you're listeningto this podcast, I want to save
you the email.
Okay, I miss the stores too.
You don't have to tell me Ilove bookstores.
It's like you've got a few ofthose emails Every time I speak
somewhere.
They're like but when are youmaking the stores back?
I mean, it's just not part ofthe consumer mindset anymore.
(18:15):
I'm thankful Barnes Noble ismaking a rebound.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
But that's like the only what's interesting right is
Amazon came along, gobbled upthe world and then all digital,
and then they went and launchedphysical stores and then closed
them, and did they close all ofthem?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Like I don't.
Even I paid a little bit ofattention, but not I read the
article on this.
They gave it a short period oftime and it wasn't working and
they shut them all down.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Interesting.
So they tried to see if theycould bring that back because of
the emails you got.
Right, like people, theyprobably hear the same thing,
right, and they're like peoplewant a physical place to go
figure some stuff out.
So, yeah, that's interesting.
(19:08):
Okay, so you brought it allonline or it was in the process
of going online when you came in.
I guess we can jump back tothat.
Through all that time, throughthose five years, how did you
think about kind of culturecreating and, through that
season and the vision for thefuture and getting people behind
it?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, years ago, when I was going through church
planter training, I heard thestatement that I really hung on
to.
I don't even remember who saidit, but it was culture is
created by the positivebehaviors we celebrate and the
negative behaviors we tolerate.
So, in a sense, culture makingis like parenting it happens
along the way, it happens as youobserve.
Things that are going well,things aren't going well.
(19:43):
So we just we established thevalues of the company, we
created a new set of values, saylike let's hit reset, let's
create some fresh values.
And then we just started tochampion the ones that we felt
like were being lived out, andthen we began to address the
ones that weren't.
And it's always a work inprogress, like it's not like you
have a complete culturecreating.
But I think if you ask theaverage employee, they would
(20:05):
tell you like it's completelyturned into something else,
because the culture is in areally good spot.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, yeah, you feel it more than you see it right
Totally, because you see it inpeople's actions.
But you feel the vibe, rightLike you feel when people are
all rowing in the same direction, excited about where you're
headed, all those kinds ofthings.
Was it when you, when you camein and I know you have to be
careful, right Like you know,it's like I'm sure things
(20:34):
weren't all terrible and thingsaren't all great.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Absolutely, and I want to make sure I state that
there were really good thingsthat happened prior to my coming
.
I'm not, I was not, the Messiahof life way, totally.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Um, but what?
What have you seen as maybesome a couple of the biggest
things that have um moved in theright direction in the five
years?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, I think number one.
I think having stores was ablessing, but the problem with
stores is that it really is kindof geared toward the individual
consumer, and so you're tryingto sell to that average person
that's walking through the door.
The problem with that, though,is the real mission of Lifeway
has always been that our missionis tethered to the local church
(21:17):
, tethered to the local church.
So I think, in some ways, thestores was mission drift for us,
because we moved away towardsproducts that were really geared
towards church leaders andmoved more towards the
individual consumer, whereas nowwe've really shifted back to
okay, what does the personleading student ministry need
for Wednesday and Sunday?
So I think that question'schanged and the team's rallied
(21:41):
around that question, because,at the end of the day, we're
most excited about helping thelocal church, because that's
where Christ said the action isRight.
Yeah, and hopefully, along theway, we're helping individuals
as well, but I think the centerof the bullseye for us is really
helping the senior pastorfigure out how to pull off
discipleship and worship andevangelism and all those things.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The church is helping thepeople.
You're helping the church right, like you're.
You're empowering the church,resourcing the church, giving
them tools that they could usethat they can't create on their
own.
Like I love how you put it likethe big guys, you know the life
, churches and the elevations,like they can create all their
own stuff because absolutely,and they do and they share it
and all the things right, whichis awesome.
But the average church inAmerica a hundred people, 200
(22:24):
people like they're borrowinganything they can right, or or
using resources, like you guys,all day long because you know
they have a one or two people onstaff and they can't create
Absolutely.
And then you know it Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And man, you know it's moving that way, Like you,
and fewer churches are able toafford a lot of staff, right, so
we're having to figure out howto do more with less.
And a lot of times you've got abivocational person in place or
you might have a volunteerstudent leader.
So when we say help the churchleader, we're not necessarily
saying help the church staff.
It may be a guy who's a fireman, who also happens to be the
(22:59):
youth guy Right Totally, andthat's.
That's more and more the case.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
How did you guys switch?
I mean, you went from not notonly, but like you had this
physical store kind of presence.
Sounds like it was a big partof you know the business now,
now it's gone completely online,so all the resources are online
.
I'm sure you ship.
It sounds like you knowcommunion cups and envelopes and
things that are print.
You ship to them, but I'm sureyou have digital resources too.
(23:26):
Yes, but it's like e-commerce.
So how has the business modelchanged?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, we are sensitive to the fact that the
world is becoming increasinglydigital.
You know, it still blows mymind that my daughter's in
college and she didn't buy anytextbooks Right.
Totally All of her textbooksare online.
Like I'm sorry, it still blowsmy mind.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I remember going to the store to pick up my books,
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Totally and spending $900.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So we know the generation coming behind prefers
digital for the most part andfeels comfortable with digital,
prefers digital for the mostpart and feels comfortable with
digital.
So the hard thing right nowabout serving the church is a
vast majority of the smaller,medium-sized churches,
particularly those in ruralareas.
They're figuring out how tostream right now.
Yes, so they're still sayingwe're not ready to leave the DVD
(24:14):
.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Like using their iPhone.
That's how they're streamingright.
It's like absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
COVID exposed, like, the number of churches that
didn't even have a facebook page.
Yeah, yeah, so the church isjust culturally, particularly
the rural grassroots church,which is the majority of
churches technologically, not onthe front end, on the back end,
so but then you have churcheslike the ones you mentioned.
They're like why is this notdigital right?
(24:40):
Why do we have to buy this inpaper form?
So, in order to do that in asense of SKUs, how do you do
that?
Like, obviously we'd love todeliver everything digitally.
It would save us a ton of timeand money, but there's still a
vast majority of churches thatwant it in a box and they want
it in paper Right, and Iunderstand.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yep, and some of it.
I guess you do want it that way.
I don't know.
You're in a small group andsome people like to write it
down.
If I had my way as a Biblestudy leader.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I would want everybody to have a piece of
paper and put their phone away,Right?
So I understand why people arescreened out and they just want
to deal with a piece of paper.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, get the distractions away.
Are things headed down theright path?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Oh yeah, it's going great.
Lifeway is in a good spot.
I mean we made some toughdecisions Like honestly just
selling that headquarterbuilding.
It was such a profitable thingfor us.
We were able to throw all thatinto long-term investment and
it's kicking off interest.
It can help us be innovativeand design new tools.
We just put a new curriculumout called Hi-Fi.
(25:45):
That's for churches and writtenby pastors and church leaders
in California for churches whoare in hard to reach places
where kids walk through the doorand they have no idea who Jesus
is or what the church is or whythese people are wearing fig
leaves.
It's a curriculum that'swritten for churches like that
and it's doing really well outthe gates.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Do you guys do a lot of that?
Partner with people, pastorsand folks to write curriculum?
Absolutely, we have.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
A lot of our writers are contractors, right, and so
for a product that we want toresonate with the West, we want
people from the West writingthat.
We don't want someone fromNashville writing it for a
church in Seattle, right, yeah.
Yeah, totally, and that's oneof the cool things about going
remote, like we've done it, likewe're now hiring people from
all over the country who don'thave to move to Nashville to be
(26:38):
editors, graphic designers,content creators, designers
content creators.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's been really fun to see the diversity.
Yeah, yeah, the whole.
I mean it's cool.
I'm sure it's also hard to gothrough that transition as a
business where you had aheadquarters and you know
whether it was used every day ornot by everybody.
Still people are coming in theoffice, that culture exists of
being in the office, and thenthat starts to sort of fade away
.
I'm sure COVID accelerates thatfor you guys and now you're
(27:07):
like we don't even have aheadquarters, we have the-.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Frank, you would think so.
I thought that would be true.
In fact, I think I grieved themost in selling the building.
I'm a pastor.
I love people.
Let's get everybody together.
But once we sold the building,we started building a new space.
The predominant air of fear wasare we going to have to all
come back in the office everyday?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Right.
People are enjoying it yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
And they like coming in for strategic meetings and
meetups and whiteboarding.
But they don't like just havingbeen told you have to sit in
the office for a certain amountof hours.
They'd rather do that from homeand hang out with their dogs.
Yeah, yeah so it was anadjustment but honestly I think
I had the hardest time.
I think everybody else was likethis is great.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, you're like come on, guys, show up in the
coworking space today.
We need everyone here.
I need some.
I need church, I need someFaceTime with all you guys.
Here's a compromise.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Twice a year we fly everybody in for a one lifeway
conference.
We do a two day event.
We have worship, we havespeakers.
I normally give a talk aboutvision and we just have a lot of
fun.
We we do something really sillytogether.
We went roller skating one time, Love it.
So I get my fill on those thegatherings.
But understand and understandthat, like a lot of people enjoy
(28:21):
working from home.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
We we started the company allremote um about eight years ago.
So we've been remote and COVIDhit and you know, but it was
kind of like we were alreadyremote.
I couldn't imagine going intoan office, like you know, and
then you start to attract thosepeople, cause some people really
want to be in an office andit's good for you know, whatever
(28:44):
that kind of business orcertain kinds of people.
So you still need it, um, butonce you're kind of remote, you
start to attract the people thatlike to work that way too.
So it keeps you know and dude.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
What I love about it is it's really flat in the
organization.
Like I don't think we realizehow much pretense it creates
when there's offices with someare bigger, some are smaller,
some have a view, some don't.
Now nobody has an office.
When I go in I've got toreserve a room just like
everybody else.
I don't miss that at all.
I thought I would, but I don'tmiss it.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool.
That's cool.
What's, um, I guess maybe, aswe wrap here a little bit, what,
what's?
You got the age of AI hittingand you know we're talking about
digital transformation.
You guys are going through it.
Churches are getting hit withit too, right, like COVID and
post COVID, like kind of goingdigital, and now AI is hitting.
(29:40):
Right.
There's this like the snowballthat just keeps coming at us.
How are you guys thinking about?
How are you?
How are you thinking about itas the leader of Lifeway and
helping churches somehow?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Don't we all have some mixed feelings about it?
Like, let me, let me speakpositively about it, because
nobody wants to say nice thingsabout AI right now.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I love AI.
I use it every day.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Okay, well, in the church there's this fear we're
gonna be robots.
But, like I just did an addressto the team and I wanted a
couple of images and and it'salways hard to find images like
stock photos and things likethat so our graphics guys just
told ai to make me something.
Dude, they were unbelievable.
Yeah, images and I didn't haveto pay for it, I didn't have to,
like, give anybody credit, likeit was pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yep, and they did it fast, right they.
They were probably you still,you still had them, they.
You still employ these people,but like they have a superpower,
they can go do this thing likeway faster.
It was cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
On the negative side.
I think that makes our graphicdesigners nervous.
At what point do I get replacedby a screen?
Yeah, and then I just havequestions about human creativity
.
What happens to humancreativity when we no longer are
challenging ourselves to becreative?
We have machines that do thatfor us.
(31:02):
That makes me nervous.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, I try to listen to abunch of stuff around this and
you think about, like otherthings, other technological
advancements that were made, andthen, like everyone's fear of
losing all the jobs and you knowyou do lose those jobs but a
bunch of other new jobs crop upthat didn't exist right and then
(31:25):
there's more productivity goingon and there's more gdp created
, and so I've heard that storynumerous times in different ways
and I'm like is that what'sgoing to happen here?
I mean, it sounds like this isone of those moments that I've.
I've not lived through one ofthose right in that sense, like
I guess maybe like internet,mobile, some of that kind of
(31:46):
stuff, but this one feels a bitdifferent, right, like it's
gonna yeah I think, it's lowerrisk for us as a christian
publishing company becausenormally, like when we sign an
author, we've heard this personspeak.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
We've probably read some things they've written
before.
It's very low probability thatchat gpt did that, right, right,
yeah, I mean I heard for schoolteachers and others who are
trying to decide, like who wrotethis.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh man, totally.
I was reading something theother day.
It was at the college level,cause there's these like AIs
that can read the paper anddetermine if it was written by
AI, but they're not.
They're like decent at it, butthey're not perfect.
And so, literally, the collegeswere like no, we're not even
going to use them becausethere's too many like false
(32:31):
positives, so forget it.
We're not even going to try topolice it because it's just not
possible right now.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, I just think self-preservation is a powerful
emotion and I think a lot ofpeople in the creative space are
like I don't like the feel ofthis Right.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Right, yeah, and I would assume in your industry.
I mean, we use it.
We use it for draft writing ofthings, we use it for like copy
and emails and blog posts andimages and you know.
But a lot of it is the draftwork, right, and then there's
humans leading, getting it done,doing the editing, making sure
(33:12):
that it's accurate, those kindsof things.
So it's kind of elevating thework in some sense, but it's not
getting rid of people.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Their job is just-, but it does create some
interesting ethical dilemmas.
Let me give you one.
Recently in ministry, sosomebody showed me how to do
this AI summary of meetings.
Do you use that feature?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I forget what it's called, but we use one in Zoom.
That's on all the time.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Exactly so I told my assistant like hey, turn that on
all the time.
I want to be able to go backand just see the summary of what
we talked about.
Well then a guy asked to talkto me about a very personal
issue that he was going through.
Like he needed some advice andI didn't know how to turn that
dang thing off.
You're like so I got a fullsummary of all of his personal
(33:56):
problems.
Like I do think there's goingto be some interesting things
that happen with confidentialityand privacy as we move forward.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, you're like, I didn't know how to turn it off.
Now it's stored somewhere inthe cloud.
I don't know where it's at.
This is.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
And this guy would be horrified to know there's a
written document about some ofthe unique challenges he's
facing.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, and unintentional right Like, not
like.
You didn't do it on purpose.
You're just like I didn't knowhow to use this tool because
it's a new feature.
Yeah, no, I totally get it.
Man, that's crazy.
Ai is crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
If you talk about technology, though, let me ask
you this Is an online churchmember, a church member.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
I mean they never come to the building, they never
join any kind of real group,maybe like a virtual group.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
It's like how do you feel about church membership in
general?
Are they a member when theycame once?
When they came five times, didthey go through next steps?
Did they get baptized?
Did they what?
Everybody has a different like.
What is a church member, right?
Like, even so, it's kind of thesame question.
(35:07):
But, look, the only personsuffering in some sense by just
going online is that personBecause, like we all know, like
the local church is about, likerelationships, and like human,
physical, in-personrelationships are very important
.
(35:27):
Now, I I also can appreciatethere's cases where you know you
have some kind of anxiety oryou have some sort of sickness
or disability or reasons why youliterally cannot be there or
with people or whatever.
There's that kind of case whichis unique and online church is
a blessing for those people,like in a major way, right, um,
(35:51):
but for people who aren't inthat category or any of those
categories, you know, being withpeople is important, like we
were created for connection, youknow, and I know you can use a
little bit like zoom and thingshelp you a lot, for sure, but it
just can't replace, like realbeing with people I totally
agree and I think the challengewith it is it can enable
(36:12):
isolationism totally, and I andI think like one church I'm
preaching at pretty regularlyhere in town long hollow church
it's a great church here innashville.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
They have an online pastor now that, just like, is
constantly trying to engage withpeople who are joining online
to see if you can't reel them inand get them involved in
relational ministries.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I think that's really cool, yeah yeah, yeah, using it
to get people to connect withpeople, to attract people, to
minister to people who can'tmake it, like all those kind of
things are all good, but but I,you know, I think we're still
gonna, you still gotta go bewith people somehow, some way.
So I don't know, I don't knowhow you count people's
(36:50):
membership or not, but but weall need to be with people.
I mean, I don't think like it'slike church is meant to be in
person, you know, with all theother things being in support,
right, like in tools at ourfingertips and just like
websites and all that so well,man, this has been awesome.
(37:10):
Where is Lifeway headed?
Give us kind of where you guysare going, what's the next five
years look like, and then youknow where do folks go to check
you guys out.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, our five-year vision is to empower 300,000
church leaders with research andresources to reach the nations,
and the number of 300,000 isimportant to us.
Like right now, we think, basedon our best study, we're
serving about 100,000 churches,yeah, or church leaders, I mean.
So we're setting a goal to bemore aggressive and proactively
(37:39):
pursuing church leaders to sayhow can we help you?
And the way we're doing that iswe're now breaking down our
focus according to the positionin the church.
So, okay, what is the seniorpastor struggling with?
What could we build to help him?
What things do we currentlyoffer that are effective and
what things do we not offer thatcould be effective?
So, instead of just who has agreat idea for a church product,
(38:02):
we're thinking through the eyesof a church leader.
So we we hope, with thatapproach and adding some outside
sales people who are reallyjust out there checking in with
churches, finding out like, whatdo you need?
We can be in better touch withthe church and and grow that and
as we do that, obviously it'llbecome more profitable.
So they can find us atlifewaycom that that's our
(38:22):
online channel and, uh, wouldlove to connect.
Also, if you have any, if youwant to shoot anything to me, I
make myself accessible.
It's just president atlifewaycom.
If you have a question abouttoday, we'd love to interact
with you.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I love it.
That's a great email, by theway, I'm going to.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
I made that it's actually not my real email, but
I'm tired of telling people.
I'll spell my name so likepresident and life way Prez.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
It gets forwarded to me so good.
Um well, this has been awesome,man.
Thanks for coming on.
What about checking you outLike on Twitter, on Instagram,
any anywhere?
Yeah, just Ben.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Mandrell, b E, n, m, a, n D R E L L, or you can check
me out on instagram or orfacebook believe it or not,
still there or twitter there.
I'm not a big twitter fan.
I'll just be honest with you.
I've lost my love for twitter,but I haven't left.
I've lost my love.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
We got it wrong.
I asked the wrong I'm sorry x,it's x, so it's x, sorry x.
Um well, ben, this has beengreat man.
Uh guys, thanks for tuning in,join us next week, definitely,
definitely.
Share the love, give theepisode a like, share it on the
socials and we'll catch you guysnext week.
Thanks guys, see ya.
uh, hey guys, mike, here with another episode of
modern church leader.
Uh, here with my new bud, benmandrell.
Um dude, great to have you onthe show we're buds man.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
I love the immediate affection that's just you.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just go for it, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
You just pulled me right in.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That felt like a hug next time I'm in nashville we'll
either have a beer or a coffeeI'm not sure which one is
appropriate, but it'll be allgood well, only guy that's got
michael jordan shoes in thebackground is a friend of mine,
so I'm loving this I can't.
I would move the camera but itwould be all disruptive.
(00:40):
I'm a bit of a basketball guy,so I got.
I got the Jordan Jersey, thebra, the Kobe Jersey and the
LeBron Jersey up there.
So you know, I loved you atfirst sight.
The legends we can have thedebate on who's the greatest,
but it's another podcast.
Yeah, it's a whole notherpodcast.
Well, where are you?
(01:01):
You're coming to us fromNashville.
Uh, are you in the we workright now, or in the, the
coworking space, or so?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
for those of you who are listening, we just built a
brand new space that's kind oflike a cowork space.
Uh, nobody has their own office.
Everybody comes in when theywant to have meetings, but it's
a very flexible space.
So I'm actually um on this callfrom home today, but I've been
up to the office today andthat's in Brentwood.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Tennessee.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Well, man, you took overpresident and CEO of Lifeway.
I would assume most people inthe church world know about
Lifeway, but maybe not.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So why don't you give us that?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, maybe not, maybe not?
I mean, what'd you say?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
It's been around for over a hundred years, yeah, so
when I was a church planter inDenver and they called me to
come as president of Lifeway.
I announced it to my church,like, hey, I'm going to go be
the president of Lifeway.
I kid you not.
At least 95% of the people inthe room were like what's
Lifeway?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Is that they had one bookstore in Denver and it
closed Right.
So they were like my churchmembers were like hey, you're
aware that it's closing right.
So there's been a lot ofconfusion about that because
Lifeway has had this historicdirect-to-church business that's
really strong for years.
And then there's been theretail piece and everybody knows
retail is drying up.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So Lifeway had to make the shift.
Well, go back so you were apastor for a long time a local
church pastor, it sounds like,out in Tennessee, but then you
planted a church in Denver.
So give us that journey alittle bit and then we can jump
into how you decided to take thejob at Lifeway.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, so my call to ministry was surprising.
I didn't see myself being apastor.
I have a biology and chemistrymajor.
It's really helping me outright now, frank.
Totally Listen, one of my kidsis super into science, so it
(03:02):
probably would help me out.
Because then Itime job at achurch as a college pastor in
Jackson Tennessee, in WestTennessee, and that pastor kind
of took me under his wing and Ifound out through some mentoring
through school that I had agift to communicate.
So I started teaching andpreaching some to no one's
complete surprise but mine.
(03:22):
I did not see this coming.
But they ended up asking me tofollow him and be the next
pastor of the church.
So we took that baton.
I became the pastor of thischurch in West Tennessee for 12
years Great experience.
But then we really felt like,okay, our kids are 9, 8, 7, 6
years old.
If we're going to do somethingmissional and kind of crazy,
like you only live once, now'sthe time.
(03:44):
So we investigated churchplanning and I ended up signing
on with the north americanmission board to plant a church
in denver colorado.
Okay, so we were nam planners,uh planted a church in uh near
golden arvada area and thechurch did really well started
out as a bible study in ourbasement protested by the HOA,
(04:05):
then we moved into an elementaryschool and a high school and
then we finally moved into anold, restored Walmart building
that we just redesigned.
It was a beautiful space.
That's cool.
And we weren't there in thatspace like six months before.
God brought this like reallyheavy decision about, okay,
lifeways pursuing me aspresident.
Is this something we want toconsider?
It's a unique once in alifetime opportunity.
(04:26):
But, man, we had just plantedthat church five years prior,
like it was.
It was really early.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, yeah, and you're five years in.
It sounds like it was growing.
So you're having a lot of funand you're you're watching it.
You know flourish.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
No more pushing cases every morning to set up and
tear down.
We had our own space, we had agood staff, it was healthy man
and, like in Denver, to have ahealthy, growing church was an
accomplishment, right, right,right.
So it was really hard to answerthe call of God to come back to
middle Tennessee, and so mywife and I started a podcast too
.
It's called the glass house andin this podcast we just talk
(05:04):
about, like, some of the veryunique challenges of being in
ministry and like calling is abig piece of that, right, like
knowing where you're called andhow to deal with transitioning
calling Like those are bigquestions.
Yeah, so that's a little bitabout how I got to Lifeway.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Reader's Digest.
Did you enjoy moving fromTennessee to Denver Did?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
you enjoy moving from Tennessee to Denver?
Absolutely, I did.
My wife would say it took her35 years to get home.
It's such a sincere outdoorenvironment which are her two
favorite things sincerity andoutdoors and we just love the
people.
We loved our neighbors.
We really got into neighboringand built strong relationships
and even today I miss the churchbut I miss our street more,
(05:50):
like we just made really greatfriends, like that were
non-religious people, but itjust became a big part of our
life.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Right, right, and you had those kids in those ages.
So it's like totally right, thekids, if you had others in the
neighborhood, man, that ties youin and if they have friendships
in the neighborhood and allthat kind of stuff, I totally
get it.
We still live out in San Diego,but our first house we were on
a street like that and we werethere for 10 years and I don't
(06:17):
know why we left, but we did.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Once you don't have it anymore, you realize what you
have.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Once you don't have it anymore, you realize what you
have.
Yeah, it was a greatneighborhood.
Yeah, so church is going well.
You get the phone call one day.
Someone DM'd you like hey, youever heard of Lifeway?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
I get a voicemail of like hey, give us a call, this
is such and such from the searchteam for Lifeway Christian
Resources and we have a coupleof questions about a candidate.
So I go up and I tell my wifeI'm like who in the world do we
know that's a candidate forLifeway Christian Resources?
And she was like immediatelylike she's like I guarantee you
that's you Like no, no way.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
It's a clever way to get a call back.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah.
So I called back, I had in mindwho it was and sure enough my
wife is right there, like, hey,it's actually you, we have some
questions for you.
We just didn't want to raiseany suspicion, like if somebody
else was answering your email oryour phone calls.
So I ended this conversationwith them.
I, you know, I obviously had alot of thoughts about local
church and it wasn't a hardconversation to say, hey, here's
(07:22):
how I see it, here's where it'sgoing from my perspective.
And one thing led to anotherand I was just like deeper and
deeper into the process.
I got asked to enter into thefinal three candidates.
They asked me to fly to Dallasto do an interview.
I'm getting on the airplane andmy wife says to me now there's
a 66% chance you're not gettingthis job Right.
(07:44):
Like at that point we were bothstill like there has to be a
ram in the stick.
I'm not going to actually dothis.
And it was me and two businesspeople, is my understanding and
I was the only pastor.
So I went into that interview.
It kind of makes sense, right.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, it does.
You know it's more.
I would assume Lifeway is morebusiness than church, but it's
serving the church, but from arunning it and just what all
that looks like.
So it makes sense that we'relooking at business guys too.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Totally so.
You either have to have abusiness guy that has a great
front man, that has respect andthe credibility of the churches,
or you have to have a pastorthat trusts the business to
business professionals and isengaged at whatever level he can
be.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So I went interviewed.
They told me it'd be a week.
I get home, put my bag down,the phone rings and it's the
(08:37):
chair of the search team, ben,how do you think you did today?
And I said, man, I thought itwent pretty well.
I mean, mean, unless you tellme different.
I mean right, you're liketerrible, it was absolutely
terrible.
He goes well, we don't, wedon't need any more time, like
we are unanimous, felt likeyou're the person.
And then that that was thefirst time that really
registered with me like holy cow, like this is actually right,
(09:01):
and so let me know I'm going tomake yes yeah, my wife lindley
and I then went through like areal season of like, okay, are
we ready to make this decision?
And we had gone back and forthon it so much and we were just
like, okay, let's do it.
You only live once.
And it was a lot harder than Ithought it would be.
Leaving the church was harderthan I thought it would be.
(09:26):
Starting over and learning howto be a president of a
corporation was harder than Ithought it'd be.
It humbled me to no end.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Yeah, yeah, I could only imagine.
I mean going through transition.
Your kids were now what you hada teenager.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
High school, middle school.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Middle schooler, yeah , and an elementary at all three
stages.
Going on High school and inelementary at all three stages.
Going on High school, leavinghigh school.
What was it like to processwith your wife, and then with
your kids, to make a move likethat?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
That's a good question.
I know every family does thisdifferent.
But what we did for the secondmove is we set every kid down
individually and she and Iprivately, had said if any kid
opposes no question asked, we'renot doing it Because we're
happy where we are.
I don't want to spend the restof my life with one of my kids
saying, Dad, you ruined my life.
And we at that point weren'tfeeling like 100% direction from
(10:13):
God either way.
We kind of felt like God wassaying like, make a choice.
So each kid, one by one, waslike Dad, we think you should do
it.
Like you realize, this is likemoving back to a new city,
starting over again.
And they all felt like, yeah,let's do it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So we did it like and that was so key because, man,
if I had had to bring themdragon and scream and that would
have been awful- oh, yeah, Iknow guys that have done that
but I don't even know your kidsand I'm impressed with them
because that was impressive, thefact that they were like let's
do it it.
Oh, that's crazy, like Icouldn't, I did.
(10:49):
Well, um, and we moved schools.
Uh, well, I mean, we went to adifferent middle school than
they were expecting and you know, their first reaction is always
like no, why would you do that?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Here's the hard thing for people in ministry is like
when you go to a new place.
It is such a bittersweetexperience.
I mean, for a couple of yearsyou literally are grieving the
loss of friendships, community,and no one tells you this.
But, like when you leave achurch, you can't talk to those
people much for a while, youcan't continue to engage them
about what they think about thesearch process, what they think
(11:28):
about the new pastor.
That's not healthy, Right.
So you kind of lose all senseof community for a while.
You're just roaming and thenyou go to a new organization or
a new church.
It takes you a couple of yearsto figure out who here has even
bought into your philosophy,your leadership.
So it's a really transition.
Ministry is particularly hard.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, whether you're doinglike you did, going from a
church into corporate, or you'rejust going from one church to
another church or something likethat, like, or you're you're in
a church and you're planting achurch or you know, those are
all different kinds oftransitions.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
And when you're leaving a church, if you act
excited to be going to the nextchurch or how does it make that
church feel Like?
It's just really it's wonky.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of interesting dynamics to sort
through.
What was it like?
So, now that you okay, youdecided the kids are on board,
sounds like wife was on boardand you go and make the move.
So what was it like to go intothe, from the church world to
the corporate world?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Hard.
Our lives were sointerconnected with so many
other people's lives.
When you're a pastor and yourministry like and I mean it's
like it's just the best thingabout being in ministry is that
your lives are just sointerconnected.
I mean seeing the same peopleevery week.
You're marrying and burying anddoing life together.
You're getting to know theirspouses, their kids, your, your
(12:46):
wife may not be paid on staff,but she's honored as if she were
like it's, it's a big, it's a,it's a team deal.
Then you go to a corporatesetting and she's not invited to
anything that I go into, notone room.
And then you know, I don't, Iwork with all these great people
.
I've never met their spouses.
Right, you know, I try toorganize something.
(13:07):
Hey, let's all get together.
They're like what we alreadyhave, churches, like, why would
we do that here?
Like, right, yeah, it took me acouple of years to realize that
they don't need a pastor, theyto realize that they don't need
a pastor, they need a president.
And it took a while for me tomake that transition.
Yeah, yeah, what's thedifference?
Oh man, a pastor is somebodythat's expected to be there when
(13:30):
you're in your ups and downs oflife, like, like, for example,
when I first got here, one ofthe first things I did was make
a list of all the employees Iknew who were suffering, right,
and then I just want to stayclose to them.
I'll make sure somebody'swalking with them and that's
like, believe me, that's stillsomething we try to do, it like.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
But yeah, that's like you're like that was into me.
That's like who I am.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I remember the first executive meeting I had a sheet.
It was like be pastoral leaders, but some of it was also like I
needed to adjust and recognizethat all these people have a
pastor and so just making thatadjustment and honestly that's
what we talk about in the GlassHouse is our marriage went
(14:12):
through a really tough seasonbecause Lindley didn't have a
place anymore and I was amped upwith the adrenaline rush of
leading a new organization andshe was home every day trying to
figure out what life looks like.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
What to do?
No friends yet, no local church, community, or establishing all
those things brand new.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
It was hard.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, no, I could totally see it.
And you have a mission andshe's over there going like I
don't have one.
We used to do this together,yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
And I didn't inherit like an organization moving up
into the right, like I inheritedan organization that was in a
tough spot, like they justclosed all these stores.
There was a lot of fear in thewater.
So I had a lot of work to do totry to encourage people that
there was a new vision forLifeway, and it took me a lot of
hours, a lot of listening, alot of time.
(15:03):
So I'd come home at night, man,I was spent and she hadn't had
a single conversation with anadult all day.
Right, right, it's just, youknow we're through all that now
and thankful for that.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah, you're like, I just brought it all the meetings
.
She's now co-CEOs.
She just shows up, right.
That doesn't work.
So, um, I guess transitioninginto that, like so Lifeway was
in a spot sounds like a toughspot, or in a spot where some
things had to, uh, betransformed and changed.
(15:38):
What?
Where was it five years ago?
And kind of five years later?
Where are you guys at today?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, I mean when I walked through the door there
was PTSD in the building becausethey had just spent two years
trying to reimagine stores.
Let's, let's try to remerchandise, let's rebrand,
let's do everything we can totry to make stores work and and
and.
It was working for a little bit.
There was a lot of hope in theair and then Christmas season
came, I mean, it just crashed.
(16:07):
That was when Amazon was justreally taking off.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, I was going to say, and all the while, Amazon.
Literally, that was the thoughtin my head as you were going.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I'm like, and you got Amazon over here just going
bananas and traffic was way upin the stores, but purchases
weren't.
And that's what was happeningPeople were going finding the
book they want, ordering onAmazon, yeah, and so we just
knew it wasn't sustainable.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So when I came in the building, the first thought
was-.
Real quick.
How many physical locations didyou guys have at that time?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
174 scattered all over the country.
Yeah, each of those had aunique lease with the property
owner that had to be negotiatedand dealt with.
It was a long process, but thefirst thought was leaders were
like, well, let's just takeeverything that we've had in the
stores and throw it online.
Let's just become an onlinething.
Well, that didn't work, becausepeople who walk into a store
(16:56):
are not shopping for the samekind of things for people who
are online.
And what we ultimately came tois Lifeways.
Play in the future is tounderstand church leaders and
build things that they don'thave time to build, whether it's
curriculum, whether it's greatBibles, whether it's fellowship
cups to do communion, whetherit's kids' activities, vacation,
(17:19):
bible school, like all thestuff.
Especially small and mediumsized churches don't have the
time to go and build themselves.
We build it for them.
We have a hundred thousand kidsin camp every summer, because a
lot of churches can't do theirown camp.
So we've gotten back to ouroriginal mission, which is to
serve the church, and that's whyLifeway is really moving
aggressively into a growth phase, I think.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Right, right.
So did you guys shut all thosestores?
Did you keep them they're?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
done.
No, they were already actuallyall shutting down when I got
there.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Okay, got it, got it.
So all stores are gone, shutdown.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
And so everything is happening online now.
Yeah, and if you're listeningto this podcast, I want to save
you the email.
Okay, I miss the stores too.
You don't have to tell me Ilove bookstores.
It's like you've got a few ofthose emails Every time I speak
somewhere.
They're like but when are youmaking the stores back?
I mean, it's just not part ofthe consumer mindset anymore.
(18:15):
I'm thankful Barnes Noble ismaking a rebound.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
But that's like the only what's interesting right is
Amazon came along, gobbled upthe world and then all digital,
and then they went and launchedphysical stores and then closed
them, and did they close all ofthem?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Like I don't.
Even I paid a little bit ofattention, but not I read the
article on this.
They gave it a short period oftime and it wasn't working and
they shut them all down.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Interesting.
So they tried to see if theycould bring that back because of
the emails you got.
Right, like people, theyprobably hear the same thing,
right, and they're like peoplewant a physical place to go
figure some stuff out.
So, yeah, that's interesting.
(19:08):
Okay, so you brought it allonline or it was in the process
of going online when you came in.
I guess we can jump back tothat.
Through all that time, throughthose five years, how did you
think about kind of culturecreating and, through that
season and the vision for thefuture and getting people behind
it?
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, years ago, when I was going through church
planter training, I heard thestatement that I really hung on
to.
I don't even remember who saidit, but it was culture is
created by the positivebehaviors we celebrate and the
negative behaviors we tolerate.
So, in a sense, culture makingis like parenting it happens
along the way, it happens as youobserve.
Things that are going well,things aren't going well.
(19:43):
So we just we established thevalues of the company, we
created a new set of values, saylike let's hit reset, let's
create some fresh values.
And then we just started tochampion the ones that we felt
like were being lived out, andthen we began to address the
ones that weren't.
And it's always a work inprogress, like it's not like you
have a complete culturecreating.
But I think if you ask theaverage employee, they would
(20:05):
tell you like it's completelyturned into something else,
because the culture is in areally good spot.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, yeah, you feel it more than you see it right
Totally, because you see it inpeople's actions.
But you feel the vibe, rightLike you feel when people are
all rowing in the same direction, excited about where you're
headed, all those kinds ofthings.
Was it when you, when you camein and I know you have to be
careful, right Like you know,it's like I'm sure things
(20:34):
weren't all terrible and thingsaren't all great.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Absolutely, and I want to make sure I state that
there were really good thingsthat happened prior to my coming
.
I'm not, I was not, the Messiahof life way, totally.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Um, but what?
What have you seen as maybesome a couple of the biggest
things that have um moved in theright direction in the five
years?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, I think number one.
I think having stores was ablessing, but the problem with
stores is that it really is kindof geared toward the individual
consumer, and so you're tryingto sell to that average person
that's walking through the door.
The problem with that, though,is the real mission of Lifeway
has always been that our missionis tethered to the local church
(21:17):
, tethered to the local church.
So I think, in some ways, thestores was mission drift for us,
because we moved away towardsproducts that were really geared
towards church leaders andmoved more towards the
individual consumer, whereas nowwe've really shifted back to
okay, what does the personleading student ministry need
for Wednesday and Sunday?
So I think that question'schanged and the team's rallied
(21:41):
around that question, because,at the end of the day, we're
most excited about helping thelocal church, because that's
where Christ said the action isRight.
Yeah, and hopefully, along theway, we're helping individuals
as well, but I think the centerof the bullseye for us is really
helping the senior pastorfigure out how to pull off
discipleship and worship andevangelism and all those things.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The church is helping thepeople.
You're helping the church right, like you're.
You're empowering the church,resourcing the church, giving
them tools that they could usethat they can't create on their
own.
Like I love how you put it likethe big guys, you know the life
, churches and the elevations,like they can create all their
own stuff because absolutely,and they do and they share it
and all the things right, whichis awesome.
But the average church inAmerica a hundred people, 200
(22:24):
people like they're borrowinganything they can right, or or
using resources, like you guys,all day long because you know
they have a one or two people onstaff and they can't create
Absolutely.
And then you know it Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And man, you know it's moving that way, Like you,
and fewer churches are able toafford a lot of staff, right, so
we're having to figure out howto do more with less.
And a lot of times you've got abivocational person in place or
you might have a volunteerstudent leader.
So when we say help the churchleader, we're not necessarily
saying help the church staff.
It may be a guy who's a fireman, who also happens to be the
(22:59):
youth guy Right Totally, andthat's.
That's more and more the case.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
How did you guys switch?
I mean, you went from not notonly, but like you had this
physical store kind of presence.
Sounds like it was a big partof you know the business now,
now it's gone completely online,so all the resources are online
.
I'm sure you ship.
It sounds like you knowcommunion cups and envelopes and
things that are print.
You ship to them, but I'm sureyou have digital resources too.
(23:26):
Yes, but it's like e-commerce.
So how has the business modelchanged?
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, we are sensitive to the fact that the
world is becoming increasinglydigital.
You know, it still blows mymind that my daughter's in
college and she didn't buy anytextbooks Right.
Totally All of her textbooksare online.
Like I'm sorry, it still blowsmy mind.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
I remember going to the store to pick up my books,
you know.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Totally and spending $900.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So we know the generation coming behind prefers
digital for the most part andfeels comfortable with digital,
prefers digital for the mostpart and feels comfortable with
digital.
So the hard thing right nowabout serving the church is a
vast majority of the smaller,medium-sized churches,
particularly those in ruralareas.
They're figuring out how tostream right now.
Yes, so they're still sayingwe're not ready to leave the DVD
(24:14):
.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Like using their iPhone.
That's how they're streamingright.
It's like absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
COVID exposed, like, the number of churches that
didn't even have a facebook page.
Yeah, yeah, so the church isjust culturally, particularly
the rural grassroots church,which is the majority of
churches technologically, not onthe front end, on the back end,
so but then you have churcheslike the ones you mentioned.
They're like why is this notdigital right?
(24:40):
Why do we have to buy this inpaper form?
So, in order to do that in asense of SKUs, how do you do
that?
Like, obviously we'd love todeliver everything digitally.
It would save us a ton of timeand money, but there's still a
vast majority of churches thatwant it in a box and they want
it in paper Right, and Iunderstand.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yep, and some of it.
I guess you do want it that way.
I don't know.
You're in a small group andsome people like to write it
down.
If I had my way as a Biblestudy leader.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
I would want everybody to have a piece of
paper and put their phone away,Right?
So I understand why people arescreened out and they just want
to deal with a piece of paper.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, get the distractions away.
Are things headed down theright path?
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Oh yeah, it's going great.
Lifeway is in a good spot.
I mean we made some toughdecisions Like honestly just
selling that headquarterbuilding.
It was such a profitable thingfor us.
We were able to throw all thatinto long-term investment and
it's kicking off interest.
It can help us be innovativeand design new tools.
We just put a new curriculumout called Hi-Fi.
(25:45):
That's for churches and writtenby pastors and church leaders
in California for churches whoare in hard to reach places
where kids walk through the doorand they have no idea who Jesus
is or what the church is or whythese people are wearing fig
leaves.
It's a curriculum that'swritten for churches like that
and it's doing really well outthe gates.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Do you guys do a lot of that?
Partner with people, pastorsand folks to write curriculum?
Absolutely, we have.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
A lot of our writers are contractors, right, and so
for a product that we want toresonate with the West, we want
people from the West writingthat.
We don't want someone fromNashville writing it for a
church in Seattle, right, yeah.
Yeah, totally, and that's oneof the cool things about going
remote, like we've done it, likewe're now hiring people from
all over the country who don'thave to move to Nashville to be
(26:38):
editors, graphic designers,content creators, designers
content creators.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
It's been really fun to see the diversity.
Yeah, yeah, the whole.
I mean it's cool.
I'm sure it's also hard to gothrough that transition as a
business where you had aheadquarters and you know
whether it was used every day ornot by everybody.
Still people are coming in theoffice, that culture exists of
being in the office, and thenthat starts to sort of fade away
.
I'm sure COVID accelerates thatfor you guys and now you're
(27:07):
like we don't even have aheadquarters, we have the-.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Frank, you would think so.
I thought that would be true.
In fact, I think I grieved themost in selling the building.
I'm a pastor.
I love people.
Let's get everybody together.
But once we sold the building,we started building a new space.
The predominant air of fear wasare we going to have to all
come back in the office everyday?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Right.
People are enjoying it yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
And they like coming in for strategic meetings and
meetups and whiteboarding.
But they don't like just havingbeen told you have to sit in
the office for a certain amountof hours.
They'd rather do that from homeand hang out with their dogs.
Yeah, yeah so it was anadjustment but honestly I think
I had the hardest time.
I think everybody else was likethis is great.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, you're like come on, guys, show up in the
coworking space today.
We need everyone here.
I need some.
I need church, I need someFaceTime with all you guys.
Here's a compromise.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Twice a year we fly everybody in for a one lifeway
conference.
We do a two day event.
We have worship, we havespeakers.
I normally give a talk aboutvision and we just have a lot of
fun.
We we do something really sillytogether.
We went roller skating one time, Love it.
So I get my fill on those thegatherings.
But understand and understandthat, like a lot of people enjoy
(28:21):
working from home.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
We we started the company allremote um about eight years ago.
So we've been remote and COVIDhit and you know, but it was
kind of like we were alreadyremote.
I couldn't imagine going intoan office, like you know, and
then you start to attract thosepeople, cause some people really
want to be in an office andit's good for you know, whatever
(28:44):
that kind of business orcertain kinds of people.
So you still need it, um, butonce you're kind of remote, you
start to attract the people thatlike to work that way too.
So it keeps you know and dude.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
What I love about it is it's really flat in the
organization.
Like I don't think we realizehow much pretense it creates
when there's offices with someare bigger, some are smaller,
some have a view, some don't.
Now nobody has an office.
When I go in I've got toreserve a room just like
everybody else.
I don't miss that at all.
I thought I would, but I don'tmiss it.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool.
That's cool.
What's, um, I guess maybe, aswe wrap here a little bit, what,
what's?
You got the age of AI hittingand you know we're talking about
digital transformation.
You guys are going through it.
Churches are getting hit withit too, right, like COVID and
post COVID, like kind of goingdigital, and now AI is hitting.
(29:40):
Right.
There's this like the snowballthat just keeps coming at us.
How are you guys thinking about?
How are you?
How are you thinking about itas the leader of Lifeway and
helping churches somehow?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Don't we all have some mixed feelings about it?
Like, let me, let me speakpositively about it, because
nobody wants to say nice thingsabout AI right now.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I love AI.
I use it every day.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Okay, well, in the church there's this fear we're
gonna be robots.
But, like I just did an addressto the team and I wanted a
couple of images and and it'salways hard to find images like
stock photos and things likethat so our graphics guys just
told ai to make me something.
Dude, they were unbelievable.
Yeah, images and I didn't haveto pay for it, I didn't have to,
like, give anybody credit, likeit was pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yep, and they did it fast, right they.
They were probably you still,you still had them, they.
You still employ these people,but like they have a superpower,
they can go do this thing likeway faster.
It was cool yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
On the negative side.
I think that makes our graphicdesigners nervous.
At what point do I get replacedby a screen?
Yeah, and then I just havequestions about human creativity
.
What happens to humancreativity when we no longer are
challenging ourselves to becreative?
We have machines that do thatfor us.
(31:02):
That makes me nervous.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
I mean, I try to listen to abunch of stuff around this and
you think about, like otherthings, other technological
advancements that were made, andthen, like everyone's fear of
losing all the jobs and you knowyou do lose those jobs but a
bunch of other new jobs crop upthat didn't exist right and then
(31:25):
there's more productivity goingon and there's more gdp created
, and so I've heard that storynumerous times in different ways
and I'm like is that what'sgoing to happen here?
I mean, it sounds like this isone of those moments that I've.
I've not lived through one ofthose right in that sense, like
I guess maybe like internet,mobile, some of that kind of
(31:46):
stuff, but this one feels a bitdifferent, right, like it's
gonna yeah I think, it's lowerrisk for us as a christian
publishing company becausenormally, like when we sign an
author, we've heard this personspeak.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
We've probably read some things they've written
before.
It's very low probability thatchat gpt did that, right, right,
yeah, I mean I heard for schoolteachers and others who are
trying to decide, like who wrotethis.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh man, totally.
I was reading something theother day.
It was at the college level,cause there's these like AIs
that can read the paper anddetermine if it was written by
AI, but they're not.
They're like decent at it, butthey're not perfect.
And so, literally, the collegeswere like no, we're not even
going to use them becausethere's too many like false
(32:31):
positives, so forget it.
We're not even going to try topolice it because it's just not
possible right now.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah, I just think self-preservation is a powerful
emotion and I think a lot ofpeople in the creative space are
like I don't like the feel ofthis Right.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Right, yeah, and I would assume in your industry.
I mean, we use it.
We use it for draft writing ofthings, we use it for like copy
and emails and blog posts andimages and you know.
But a lot of it is the draftwork, right, and then there's
humans leading, getting it done,doing the editing, making sure
(33:12):
that it's accurate, those kindsof things.
So it's kind of elevating thework in some sense, but it's not
getting rid of people.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Their job is just-, but it does create some
interesting ethical dilemmas.
Let me give you one.
Recently in ministry, sosomebody showed me how to do
this AI summary of meetings.
Do you use that feature?
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I forget what it's called, but we use one in Zoom.
That's on all the time.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Exactly so I told my assistant like hey, turn that on
all the time.
I want to be able to go backand just see the summary of what
we talked about.
Well then a guy asked to talkto me about a very personal
issue that he was going through.
Like he needed some advice andI didn't know how to turn that
dang thing off.
You're like so I got a fullsummary of all of his personal
(33:56):
problems.
Like I do think there's goingto be some interesting things
that happen with confidentialityand privacy as we move forward.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, you're like, I didn't know how to turn it off.
Now it's stored somewhere inthe cloud.
I don't know where it's at.
This is.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
And this guy would be horrified to know there's a
written document about some ofthe unique challenges he's
facing.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah, and unintentional right Like, not
like.
You didn't do it on purpose.
You're just like I didn't knowhow to use this tool because
it's a new feature.
Yeah, no, I totally get it.
Man, that's crazy.
Ai is crazy.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
If you talk about technology, though, let me ask
you this Is an online churchmember, a church member.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
I mean they never come to the building, they never
join any kind of real group,maybe like a virtual group.
How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
It's like how do you feel about church membership in
general?
Are they a member when theycame once?
When they came five times, didthey go through next steps?
Did they get baptized?
Did they what?
Everybody has a different like.
What is a church member, right?
Like, even so, it's kind of thesame question.
(35:07):
But, look, the only personsuffering in some sense by just
going online is that personBecause, like we all know, like
the local church is about, likerelationships, and like human,
physical, in-personrelationships are very important
.
(35:27):
Now, I I also can appreciatethere's cases where you know you
have some kind of anxiety oryou have some sort of sickness
or disability or reasons why youliterally cannot be there or
with people or whatever.
There's that kind of case whichis unique and online church is
a blessing for those people,like in a major way, right, um,
(35:51):
but for people who aren't inthat category or any of those
categories, you know, being withpeople is important, like we
were created for connection, youknow, and I know you can use a
little bit like zoom and thingshelp you a lot, for sure, but it
just can't replace, like realbeing with people I totally
agree and I think the challengewith it is it can enable
(36:12):
isolationism totally, and I andI think like one church I'm
preaching at pretty regularlyhere in town long hollow church
it's a great church here innashville.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
They have an online pastor now that, just like, is
constantly trying to engage withpeople who are joining online
to see if you can't reel them inand get them involved in
relational ministries.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
I think that's really cool, yeah yeah, yeah, using it
to get people to connect withpeople, to attract people, to
minister to people who can'tmake it, like all those kind of
things are all good, but but I,you know, I think we're still
gonna, you still gotta go bewith people somehow, some way.
So I don't know, I don't knowhow you count people's
(36:50):
membership or not, but but weall need to be with people.
I mean, I don't think like it'slike church is meant to be in
person, you know, with all theother things being in support,
right, like in tools at ourfingertips and just like
websites and all that so well,man, this has been awesome.
(37:10):
Where is Lifeway headed?
Give us kind of where you guysare going, what's the next five
years look like, and then youknow where do folks go to check
you guys out.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, our five-year vision is to empower 300,000
church leaders with research andresources to reach the nations,
and the number of 300,000 isimportant to us.
Like right now, we think, basedon our best study, we're
serving about 100,000 churches,yeah, or church leaders, I mean.
So we're setting a goal to bemore aggressive and proactively
(37:39):
pursuing church leaders to sayhow can we help you?
And the way we're doing that iswe're now breaking down our
focus according to the positionin the church.
So, okay, what is the seniorpastor struggling with?
What could we build to help him?
What things do we currentlyoffer that are effective and
what things do we not offer thatcould be effective?
So, instead of just who has agreat idea for a church product,
(38:02):
we're thinking through the eyesof a church leader.
So we we hope, with thatapproach and adding some outside
sales people who are reallyjust out there checking in with
churches, finding out like, whatdo you need?
We can be in better touch withthe church and and grow that and
as we do that, obviously it'llbecome more profitable.
So they can find us atlifewaycom that that's our
(38:22):
online channel and, uh, wouldlove to connect.
Also, if you have any, if youwant to shoot anything to me, I
make myself accessible.
It's just president atlifewaycom.
If you have a question abouttoday, we'd love to interact
with you.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I love it.
That's a great email, by theway, I'm going to.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
I made that it's actually not my real email, but
I'm tired of telling people.
I'll spell my name so likepresident and life way Prez.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
It gets forwarded to me so good.
Um well, this has been awesome,man.
Thanks for coming on.
What about checking you outLike on Twitter, on Instagram,
any anywhere?
Yeah, just Ben.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Mandrell, b E, n, m, a, n D R E L L, or you can check
me out on instagram or orfacebook believe it or not,
still there or twitter there.
I'm not a big twitter fan.
I'll just be honest with you.
I've lost my love for twitter,but I haven't left.
I've lost my love.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
We got it wrong.
I asked the wrong I'm sorry x,it's x, so it's x, sorry x.
Um well, ben, this has beengreat man.
Uh guys, thanks for tuning in,join us next week, definitely,
definitely.
Share the love, give theepisode a like, share it on the
socials and we'll catch you guysnext week.
Thanks guys, see ya.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.