May 25, 2026 • 39 mins
Don't forget to grab your free scripture journal at PrayingChristianWomen.com/journal today!
What happens when our desire for spiritual answers crosses the line into trying to control outcomes apart from God?
In this episode, Jaime and Alana dive into the fascinating—and somewhat controversial—topic of WITCHCRAFT within the church, specifically exploring how certain types of "prayer" might actually be rebellion in disguise. They discuss the critical difference between surrendering to God’s power and trying to manipulate our own destinies, the dangers of seeking hidden knowledge, and why praying to angels or treating manifestation as a spiritual shortcut crosses a firm scriptural boundary.
Alana highlights the historical weaponization of the word "witch" against spiritually independent women, sparking a deeper conversation about how the fear of overstepping can actually paralyze us and keep our prayers small. Meanwhile, Jaime opens up about a time she unintentionally put a spiritual mentor on a pedestal, relying on her almost like a medium to hear from God, illustrating how easily our hearts can slip into unhealthy reliance even with the best intentions.
Along the way, they swap practical wisdom on navigating the gray areas of modern Christian culture. From the absurdity of spiritual charlatans who farm Facebook profiles for "prophetic words" to the harmless family tradition of reading restaurant fortune cookies, they offer a discerning yet grace-filled perspective on setting healthy boundaries without becoming paralyzed by fear or religious superstition.
Whether you are worried about overstepping in your prayer life, struggling with the urge to forcefully "manifest" your desires, or simply need a reminder that God wants you to pray boldly in His power rather than your own, we hope this episode encourages you to examine your heart, expect God's guidance, and confidently approach His throne of grace.
Discover More:
Explore additional episodes of Praying Christian Women, Mindful Christian Prayers, and other Christian podcasts at Lifeaudio.com
Check out our new podcast, Christian True-Crime Junkies!, on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to podcasts!
Connect with Us:
Stay updated and engage with our community:
On Substack @PrayingChristianWomen
On Facebook @PrayingChristianWomen
On Instagram @PrayingChristianWomen
On YouTube: @PrayingChristianWomen
Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Come to the Praying Christian Women podcast. I am Alana
here with Jamie.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I am excited and terrified because you chose a topic
for us that I have no idea where we're going,
but I know it's going to be really fascinating and
I think that it is absolutely worth discussing. And to
be fair, I think this is a topic that a
lot of Christian podcasters would not be willing to touch.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So let's talk about witchcraft.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Yeah, so I'm going to give you background on kind
of where this came from. So I heard someone and
I don't remember where, don't remember what the context was,
but it stuck with me. Someone said, some kinds of
prayer and prayer in air quotes, some kinds of prayer
can actually be a form of witchcraft, meaning Christians who
(01:01):
are doing certain types of prayer in air quotes. It's
witchcraft masquerading as prayer, and it's infiltrated the Christian community.
And so that my question started there of Okay, can
prayer in a Christian context be witchcraft in disguise? And
if so, absolutely, we want to know, and we want
(01:23):
to know why and how and how to identify it
and how not to do it right.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So that's kind of where that came from.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That No, it's going to be really fascinating, and I
am excited because I don't. I sort of made you
stop telling me your thoughts where this episode was going
to go because I wanted to experience it fresh.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
But I am also really.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Intrigued, and I have been for a very long time
at the sociological history of people being named, which is, so,
let's the practice of like evil spells or demonic worship
or things that are spiritually uns safe and sinful. But
this idea that a woman who knew how to make
(02:08):
a tea that could make somebody feel better after having
a miscarriage might get killed because people claim she was
a witch. Right, I am really intrigued at that interspection,
because I believe that the religious powers that were and
maybe be sometimes we're afraid of women, specifically who had
(02:33):
unorthodox interpretations of scripture or philosophies on life, And what
better way to get rid of them than to convince
a mob they're a witch and burnament mistake. So we're
going to be We're going to be getting into some
really interesting territory I am sure.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Well, just to kind of give an overview of what
we're talking about, because when I hear the word witchcraft,
the first thing that comes to my mind is, you know,
double double toil and trouble, you know, cald and burn whatever,
fire burn and cauldron bubble, like you know, women standing
around with pointy hats over potions and stuff. But in
(03:14):
the biblical worldview that we're reading from, witchcraft wasn't magic necessarily.
I mean, it entailed elements of that, but it was
really at its core a rebellion against God's authority and
trying to There are a few different things that it entailed,
like trying to control outcomes spiritually or in some way
(03:37):
manipulating outcomes with your human abilities, or by tapping into
darker spiritual forces instead of trusting God. Seeking hidden knowledge.
That was another thing, which involved wanting to know the future,
wanting to know secret knowledge that was forbidden by God,
(03:58):
appealing to other spirit beings so that would entail spirits, demons,
the dead, false gods, the rulers and principalities that are
not God, and so all of those things. Divination, which
is very interesting because I always think of like divination
(04:21):
in the carnal sense is, you know, like reading tea
leaves stuff like that, but also trying to predict or
uncover the future with different supernatural means like pagan casting
of lots, reading omens or scigns, astrology like practices. And
this is kind of like where we get the command
(04:42):
in Exodus twenty to eighteen, which says you may not
permit a sorceress to live. So you know, these are
all different ways that can kind of be like lumped
into that witchcraft category. And so we're not talking about
prayers that are like casting bells necessarily. We're talking about
(05:02):
using prayer as a means of basically taking a shortcut
to a road that God has not intended us to shortcut.
And huh so, yeah, so that's just kind of a
basic overview, and there are different categories of witchcraft that
kind of fall into those, but we can talk about
that too. But you've got your mediums, you've got spiritists,
(05:24):
you've got necromancers, idolators.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So yeah, yeah, Well I didn't come up with it
just her fun question because I wasn't exactly sure where
we're going with this, but I do have a joke.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Are you ready for it. Yes, you might have heard
this one. I think it's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
And my child did me a disservice because she gave
me like a hearty belly laugh when I told it
to him, So I think it's probably like a lot
funnier than it is. Okay. A woman stannstairs in the
living room and she shouts up to her husband and
she says, Honey, do you ever get like a stabbing
pain right at the base of your skull, like somebody's
(06:05):
got a voodoo doll of you and they're just jabbing
it with needles And he shouts down no, And then
in like a half a minute later, she calls up,
what about now?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Okay, good you. I think you gave me at least
that time.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
That's a good one. I think that's pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah. Well, before we dive deeper in, could you open
this up in some prayer.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yes, God, we just pray that you would be present
today during this conversation. We pray that you would open
our eyes, that you would help us to just be
open minded and not not afraid to dive into this
kind of unorthodox topic, and just help us to be
able to pray with more purity and more single heartedness
(06:55):
as a result of thinking about these things. And we
just pray that you would open our eyes to anyways
that we are falling into traps of praying in ways
that are not healthy and not scriptural and biblical and
not glorifying to you.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So I did think of it just for fun. Were
there any witches in movies or anything that you were
super scared of growing up? Oh?
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, the Wizard of Oz, it was the witch and
the monkey beats then totally freaked me out as a.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
She she was a scary witch. Have you seen the clip?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Mister Rogers invited the actress on into his home because
so many kids were scared of her that he invited
her to come dressed as herself and like, hey, look,
I'm a nice woman, and I.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Put on a costume.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And then she put on her her costume and gave
the little laugh, and it helped kids to realize, oh,
like she's she herself is not evil, She's just pretending
to be. What's really cute about the Wizard of Oz
is when my kids were little, our Youngoss maybe around
three or four, and so he could follow the story
kind of you know, like enough where he recognized the
(08:02):
characters but didn't like he couldn't tell you, you know, beginning,
middle and end and all of that. He called the
witch green guy, and he didn't realize it was a woman.
And I think it's adorable because I think there was
something like very cute in his worldview, that like only
men could be that mean and scary.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So I thought it was pretty cute.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That is cute green She was green guy.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
That is too funny.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I was the most scared of the witches from Snow
White and Sleeping Beauty, And I was gonna really tell
you which was more, probably Sleeping Beauty because she turns
into the dragon, right.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I don't remember, but I just know the one with
the apple that was Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
That was Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
No ye, snow white, white Apple.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And she is scary when she turns into the old woman.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
She's scary. The old woman part was scary for me.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, I think we hit on like everybody in our age,
rackets three scares witches.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Most like I would agree.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So let's start with what we absolutely fundamentally know to
be wrong and sinful. And you already labeled some of it,
but I want to make it super clear. So anything
that's communicating with the dead or supernatural beings that are
not God the Father, God the Son, and God the
(09:26):
Holy Spirit. I think that in my brain, those are
like the like Tebya and Fiddler on the Roof. There
is no other hand, right, Like, there is no way
to look at the Bible.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And say, oh, but what about this.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
So if it has anything to do with conjuring up
the dead or praying to a spiritual thing that is
not spirit.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Guide, or relying on the spirit guide for information, I
would include praying to angels, which is something that has
crept into the church and people think that's cool and
that you know, I mean, do I believe that angels
are real?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Absolutely do.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
I believe that we have guardian angels, probably based on
what we read in scripture, and that they're everywhere doing
God's bidding and they love us and they minister to us.
But it is sinful to pray to angels. And I
think we need to make that really clear because I
think of all of the ways that we could stray
(10:27):
into the realm of what we would now consider witchcraft,
I think praying.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
To angels would be in that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, because it feels innocuous on a level, most of
us would say that if you're saying a prayer to
the devil, then you're probably not doing something that a
Christian should condone, right, But yeah, basically, if you are
praying to an angel or a faint or your dead
(10:56):
grandmother who was an amazing prayer warrior and of Jesus,
like I believe that those things are very forbidden in Scripture.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
At the basic level of the definition of trying to
control outcomes spiritually, I think a lot of things fall
under that, and I think.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That's what prayer is, though, so I need to hear
your definition better.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
I'm sorry, So trying to control outcomes spiritually apart from God,
so it can get probably gray in some areas. But
if you're if you're trying to control an outcome apart
from God, so I would put manifesting in its pure
(11:57):
detached from God for sure. If you're I'm just basically
trying to manifest something without any regard to God's power,
you know what, I think what I'm going to do
is back up and I'm going to say that if
you are viewing prayer as a way to wield power
(12:18):
yourself instead of as a way to open the floodgates
of God's power coming into earth to bring His kingdom
come and as will be done on earth as it
is in heaven, or even approaching God to have his
power intervene in a way that you are praying and
petitioning and begging and knocking down the door. Yes, you're
(12:41):
trying to control an outcome because you want something, But
if you're approaching it from if I just muster up
enough within myself to manifest this as opposed to if
I just knock and seek and keep on praying, then
maybe God, will you know, make this happen.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Do you see the difference that I'm.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I do see the difference I do, And I'm not
sure I agree with you? Okay, I want you have
to say, yeah, I think that this idea that I
mentioned at the beginning of the burning of witches, and
let's let's use it as witches with a small w
of basically just a woman with spiritual independence outside of
(13:28):
the religious powers of her day. I feel like the
devil doesn't want those kind of women, and the power
hungry church didn't want that kind of women. And I
think that what you're describing as the fear of being
a quote witch and in certain cases be used to
(13:52):
keep us praying small.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yes, I definitely see that.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I still think though, that if you're trying to control
things through your power and not God, not God's power,
it's I think that's why I was saying, I'm going
to back it up. I think I'm backing it up
to your intention and who you're because I see what
(14:17):
you're saying, and you're right that idea has in my
life paralyzed me because I feel like, well, first I
have to know what God wants before I can pray
with power. Yeah, and that is not That's not what
I'm talking about though, for sure, And I'm glad you
brought that up, because that's not what I definitely don't
think that's true. I think it is when we believe
(14:42):
that we control our own destiny by mustering up enough
and we sort of tag God onto it, that's when
it becomes sinful.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Is that a better way to say it.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
That's I can seed to all of that. And I
do feel like these types of mine or world views,
is what I'm trying to say, have crept into the
church and into our theology and into our prayer lives.
I think, however, some people, for the sake of theological purity,
(15:15):
are going to throw out too many babies with too
much bathbone it. And you've got to be so discerning
to know. Like, so, what I would hate is for
somebody to listen to this and all of a sudden
and be like, oh, no, I've been praying way too boldly.
God must be so mad at me. I need to
get back into my humble little corner. I need to
stay in my lane.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
No, And I don't, yeah, definitely don't want that to happen.
What would you say is the I mean, I would
say the litmus test is who do you attribute power to?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yes, are you praying to God? Or are you praying
to divine power within yourself? Or are you praying to
either a heavenly or evil or deceased entity. And if
it's answer is not God, then you're doing it wrong well.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
And I think one of the ways that kind of
illustrates what I'm thinking of is the like power of
words movement within certain Christian denominations and segments can get
into this where it puts the emphasis on the words
alone yes and tax got on as an afterthought, and
(16:31):
it's like, you control your destiny by saying these words.
And again you words have power for sure, And I
think there is a fine line between, like we talked
about in our last episode, choosing your words carefully, making
sure that you're speaking life, that you're you know, if
you're going to have a self fulfilling prophecy, let it
be a good one and not a limiting one for sure.
(16:56):
But I think when we put the focus on the
words above and beyond God, then.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
But it's tough.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
It's tough because it's tough not to abuse it, and
it's tough not to be so afraid of words and
the power of words that God tells us, you know,
like as a man speaks, so he is right and
so's there's a balancing act to be had, and I
think we have to be careful not to overdo either side.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, So let's talk about the dangers of both extremes
so that people can identify which extremely you're more likely
to fall into if you resonate with the picture of
somebody shaming you, Like if you were to pray as
boldly as you can imagine, and you go to people
(17:48):
or yourself or God wagging fingers and saying who do
you think you are? Then you probably don't need to
worry about airing on the side of dabbling in witchcraft,
needs to err on the side of growing more faith
and claiming what truly is yours in Christ. If you
(18:10):
lean the other way and to the point where everything
you do has fear tacked onto it, because oh, if
I say this one thing, then you know God's going
to curse me, Or you know, I forgot to say
bless you to my nephew and now the devil's going
(18:30):
to steal his soul. Right, if you're living in fear
of all of this, and I think that's an indication
you've gotten to the way other extreme or and this
is the only one that I think would be hardest
for people to recognize in themselves, and that is if
it's only about you and your pride, because I can
(18:51):
definitely picture who you're talking about. And no, I don't
have like an individual in mind, but I can picture
the personality of somebody who will pray and who will
sound like a genuine faith filled, spirit filled prayer warrior,
but their focuses on themselves. So I think that maybe
(19:12):
a good litmus test to know if you're erring in
that extreme. It's almost like, if this prayer that you're
boldly praying doesn't come true, what happens in your brain?
And if it's a surrender, if it's oh, I guess
God had something even better in store, Okay, that's an
indication that you're still giving God the glory even if
(19:33):
it's disappointment. If it's like, oh, wow, I really wanted
this to happen. I will surrender to God's will, but man,
this sucks, Okay, that shows humility. If it's oh, no,
I'm gonna look so bad because I prayed for this
thing and it didn't come true. Or if it's God,
that's not fair because I believed in this. I think
(19:54):
those are the mindsets that would show that you are
praying in human power, not divine power.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
I can also see putting others on a pedestal as
being a form of witchcraft in idolatry. When let's say
you have someone that you consider a mentor and I
actually got into like kind of crossing the line on this,
I would say where I I almost viewed this person
as kind of like my shortcut to God, like.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
As a and and this person was very insightful and perceptive,
and when she prayed over me, I took it as
gospel and I almost went to her like a medium.
And I don't mean that in a literal sense, but
what I mean is I almost was like, this person
(20:47):
is speaking the word of God over me, and I
really put her on a pedestal and went to her
for it was almost like like, Okay, I got to
go to this person to hear from God, and that
it's dangerous. That's basically going to someone as a medium
between you and God. And we don't have that Jesus
(21:07):
as our high priest, and you know, we have the
Holy Spirit. Not to say again that you want to
take it too far and not have mentors, not have
people that you feel like are mature and have a good,
good relationship with God and speak words of truth in life.
But it's where is your heart is that person? Are
(21:27):
you feeling like you have to go through that person
to get to God or not?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
And I think I think fear.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
It can, and I think fear can be a pretty
good litmus test. It's just because on the one hand, yeah,
I have mentors, and even now, if I'm about to
make a big decision, I'd be like, I would love
to chat with Becca about this, because I know she's
going to ask me the right questions to help me
to see clearly there's a difference between that, and so
(21:56):
then it would actually be foolish for me. If God
is given me a person like that in my life,
it would not be the smartest for me to make
a big decision if I had the opportunity to not,
you know, it would be foolish me to say, well,
I can't ask Beck about this because I don't want to.
I don't want to rely too much on her for
spiritual guidance. This has to be between God and me.
(22:19):
On the other hand, I think where you know that
it's gone too far is if it becomes fear based,
if it's if you're paralyzed. Oh sorry, Jamie, I don't
know if I can record with you today or not
because I haven't talked to Becca. That's a problem, right,
or you know, yeah. I think really a huge litmus
(22:43):
test in so many parts of our spiritual life, and
especially in this one, is your primary motivation fear And
if so, that's an indication that you're off balance. So
if it's, I am so glad that God has given
sobody with wisdom that I can talk to, and I
(23:04):
believe that at times He will use this person to
ask me questions and in that process I will discover
God's will. I think that's wonderful. I wouldn't worry about
that from a spiritual standpoint. Where it becomes worrisome is
if ooh, I'm so scared that if I don't pray
(23:27):
before my meeting with Becca this afternoon, she might tell
me something wrong and God's skinned, you know. Or oh,
I actually can't make this decision because my next call
with my coach isn't for three more weeks, so sorry,
you know. Then it becomes fear based, and I can't
think of much good that comes out of fear based
(23:48):
decisions in the Christian life.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So the idea though, of being able to know the
future and what some people might call divination or you know,
there are bajillion words for it. I mean, in the Bible,
there were prophets who would speak to future events. You
and I have talked about sometimes like God giving you
(24:12):
a little bit of a head step. So where do
those kinds of things fall into this, and how do
you know if this is something that's verging on spiritually
dangerous territory.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yeah, well, I think like with the prophets, they were
always clear who was telling them these things, that it
was God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and
in that realm. I always thought it was kind of
funny that, like the way you discern whether someone is
from God or not is whether the thing comes to pass.
But you know, basically, I would say if you are
(25:01):
seeking to know the future from someone other than God himself,
I mean, I've heard of people speaking prophetic words over people,
and the Bible says don't treat prophecies with contempt, test everything.
So I hold that it's possible that someone could speak
a prophetic word over you and say this is from
(25:22):
the Lord. He said, you know this is going to happen.
I would say tread very lightly there if it's not solicited.
If you're going to someone to find out the future,
and you're soliciting their advice, most people think of that
as going to like a future fortune.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Tellig teller, medium or what.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I don't know the proper terms for all of them,
but that's not coming from God. And I honestly don't
see any evidence in the Bible, aside from prophets who
were already established and known to be hearing from God.
There were kings that would say is this going to happen?
Or is this going to happen?
Speaker 3 (26:04):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
As us for us everyday Christians, I don't know that
that would be a healthy thing to do, to go
to someone and say, what does God say about the future.
I don't see a precedent there because I don't know.
I think that's very dangerous. But the bottom line is
who is that information coming from? If it's coming, who
are you seeking it out from? And if someone is
(26:26):
coming to you with future knowledge, I would test it
heavily and be very cautiously skeptical, shrewd as serpents, I
would say.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, I think that's I think that makes a lot
of sense, and I think it does a good job
like not saying, well, God never speaks about the future anymore,
or anybody who pretends to know about future events is
of the devil. I don't believe either of those are true.
But yeah, it's not a common thing. It's not something
to go and seek out. I absolutely have had times
(26:58):
for God has told me that something is going to
happen and I know that it is from the Lord. However,
those aren't things I go and seek out. They are there,
So to me, it's kind of like I don't need
to go to a you know, Christian fortune teller to
(27:18):
know this. If God wants me to know something, I'm
going to know. I also think it'd be totally fine,
Like if there was I could totally see coming to
you and be like, Jamie, I feel like God's told
me this thing about my kid. I really want to
pray with you about it, because like this picture that
God gave me is really worrisome. This is a hypothetical,
but I could totally see that is this just a
(27:41):
mother's anxiety or is this something that God is putting
on my heart through the Holy Spirit as a prophecy
And you won't know that until you have some prayer
and praying with somebody else can be so, but it's
got to be the right person, you know. Some people
are so closed off to any of this that they
would be the right person to ask for prayer for that.
(28:04):
So yeah, it's it's really interesting because on the one hand,
I sometimes wonder we talk a lot about not getting superstitious.
I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as a
non superstitious human though, or if some people we just
call thing superstitions because they're not what we believe, you
(28:24):
know what I mean, Like some people are superstitious about
having to say in Jesus' name Amen, or you know,
I think some people are gonna get feathers offold. I
think some people treat the sinner's prayer superstitiously.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
It's you say.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
These magic words and then no matter what, your salvation
is secure forever. And I do not believe that God
is up there like choosing every day. If she died today,
would I save or or not? I don't believe that
that is up for question. But I also don't think
that it's as simple as getting a four year old
to chance some words, you know, I mean talk about
(29:00):
witchcraft and spells.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I think it so.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
All I'm saying is I am open to the possibility
that we are all so superstitious and some of us
just don't know it, because, yes, because.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
We're blind to it, because it's our culture, it's our
Christian culture.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
I also want to just give a word of warning.
So I recently heard one of the podcasts I was
listening to about like Big Church Scandal. There was a
guy in a church movement who had these huge, basically
auditoriums of people, and he was claiming to be able
(29:38):
to know about people before, like without them having told
him anything about themselves. And he was basically acting like
a medium, only with slapping God on it. So he
would have people come and say you live on is
there someone here who's name is starts with a J.
(30:03):
I'm thinking of Jerry and they live on some kind
of road. I'm picturing a black bird. And someone will
be like, oh, my name's Jerry and I live on
Crow Lane or whatever.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
And he was doing this.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
He was literally going on Facebook and getting information about people.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
He's getting the list hilarious ahead of time.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Well, the sad thing is people that fell for it
were like, how did I fall for this? He was
literally going on Facebook, like I wanted so much to
receive a word from God because of something difficult I
was going through. And so just a word of caution
please if someone My thought is, what why is he
(30:47):
doing that stuff?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Like you know?
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And then he would say, Oh, God loves you. God
gave me that information to note to let me know
that He sees you and so that you feel loved.
That seems like a good thing. But just be really
careful when anyone, even a Christian claiming to know God,
claiming to be hearing from God, says something, whether it's
telling the future, prophesying the end of the world, which
(31:12):
I mean that's its own thing, prophesying when something is
going to happen, Just you know, really test everything, especially
in today's day and age.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I mean sometimes it's laughable. Sometimes it's really sad.
I think that if anybody listening has fallen prey to
like a spiritual scam like that, I think what I
would want to tell you is, hey, you're not. You
shouldn't feel ashamed, like shame on that person for being
(31:43):
a Charlatan, right, And it is a gift and a
privilege that you aren't so skeptical that you didn't see
it coming, right.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
That shows that.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Your just does and trusting.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And I would go so far as to say that
if you are hungry for a word from the Lord,
God knows what you need. God has spoken to people.
My favorite story I have two funny stories about this.
I knew one guy who got saved at a Michael
Jackson concert because the song You Were Not Alone touched
him so much and he truly felt like God was
(32:17):
singing it to him. I also know of somebody who
got saved reading the Koran, and I forget the story behind,
like as saved as a Christian, but it was a
verse from the Qoran that somehow led him to the Bible.
So God can use anything, So shame on the charlatan
like shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. And this is coming
(32:37):
from somebody who doesn't like shame people.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
But you should not be ashamed. And if God happens.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
To speak to you through that.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
That's okay too.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
God has spoken to me through musicals written by non Christians.
God has spoken to me through paintings painted by non Christians.
So why couldn't God, I'd have spoken to you through
a Charlatan. It's sad to come to terms with, but
I just want to leave that for people, and you
(33:10):
know it is, it's it's so laughable. It's kind of
like horoscopes that are so vague that like you can't
be wrong, you know, to cookies too. Yeah, So I
want to close with just a quick discussion about things like,
let's let's do fortune cookies. My husband will not participate
when we go to a Chinese restaurant and are given
(33:31):
fortune cookies. He chooses not to participate because to him,
that's too close to horoscopes, which is too close to astrology,
which is too close to witchcraft. My thought is, these
are fun and silly, and we always do the with
the chainsaw afterwards.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Do you know I like that? No, I view that.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah, so you take whatever it says on the fortune
cookie and you add the words with the chainsaw, so
it will say you will you will achieve your dreams
with a chainsaw or something. So I believe certain things
are totally innocuous. I believe certain things are extremely sinful,
(34:07):
and then I believe that there are some things that
are probably dangerous to be treated with caution, that certain
people definitely should completely stay away from. What's your opinion
on how to know which of those categories something falls into?
So totally innocuous, that's how I treat a fortune cookie. Okay,
totally sinful like praying to the dead, and then the
(34:31):
stuff that is potentially dangerous that some people should absolutely
not participate in. Like when some of my dad's great
great aunts and uncles passed, he would not go to
Buddhist funerals, whereas other people might say, I know that
I am not Buddhist, so this doesn't bother me.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
That's tough, and I would say that it's possible, like
you said, that one thing would be right for one
person and not for another. The Bible even says that.
But like, you know, it's like meat sacrifice to idols.
If you know that that meat that was sacrificed to
idols is in itself just a bunch of you know,
(35:14):
a newspapers, you know, Yeah that basically, like you know,
then you can eat it. If your conscience feels bad
about it because maybe you used to be that religion
and you feel like it's dishonoring to God, then don't
do it.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
But I so it is.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
I think there's a degree of specificity for the person.
So I think the basic question that you can ask
yourself is, I mean, the Bible says all things are permissible,
but not all are beneficial, and maybe you could just
think is this beneficial? Like let's say, sitting around the
table with your kids opening fortune cookies. It's just kind
(35:53):
of fun and it makes you laugh and it's a
bonding experience and you're not taking it seriously, so there's
literally nothing hurting you and it's benefiting you as a
family because it's fun. I guess like maybe that could
be the litmus test. Is there even a chance that
it could be a gateway into something dangerous?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Would be my stopping point.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
You know, I think let's talk about fortune tellers. I
think some are total shams who know they're scamming people.
Some are probably shams who think they're legit, and I
believe that some of them truly do have at least
the desire to interact with something otherworldly, which would absolutely
put them on the level of stay away.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So stay away.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
From all of them, right, That's kind of where I
fall or. I think most horoscopes that you read in
the newspaper are gibberish and nonsense, But I still choose
not to read them because, like you said, who knows
where the line ends and who knows what's going to
be the gateway for my husband the fortune cookies to get?
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
He doesn't make us feel bad for reading them, and
we don't make him feel bad for not And so yeah,
I think though that being aware of the gateways and
absolutely being aware when you've passed over it is important. Simultaneously,
I think that we do have more divine rights than
(37:21):
we are often permitted to acknowledge, and sometimes the fear
of falling under something that might be which crafty can
keep us from truly becoming as powerful in our prayers
as God wants us to be. But that might be
I'd be a story for another day.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Now.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
I think that's a really good point to end on
and to kind of top it off just as another
reminder that the enemy could just as much use fear
of treading in this area to keep you from praying
with power and authentically as he could use your ignorance
(38:07):
and failure to be wise and relying only on your
physical carnal self in some of these areas. I think
they're both equal and opposite dangers, and so let's bookend
those and just you know, thank God we have the
Holy Spirit, so we can continue to seek the Holy Spirit.
(38:27):
We can, you know, just pray that God would help
us to pray in spirit and in truth and with power.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah. Amen, Well, let's close with our blessing mendediction when
your heart rejoiced today, that you might be suffering grief
in all sorts of trials in the midst of your testing,
That your spirit and body be kept blameless until the
day of Christ's return. May His hope sustain you through
whatever values you journey through. May He turn all your
darkness into light and close you with robes of rejoicing
(38:59):
instead of a spirit of despair.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
And our benediction is from Romans Chapter eight, verses thirty
eight and thirty nine. For I am sure that neither
death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present,
nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth,
nor anything else in all of creation will be able
to separate us from the Love of God in Christ,
Jesus our Lord.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
We'd like to take just a quick second to thank
the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us
on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
and so much more. That's lifeaudio dot Com.
Life Audio.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Come to the Praying Christian Women podcast. I am Alana
here with Jamie.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
How are you.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I am excited and terrified because you chose a topic
for us that I have no idea where we're going,
but I know it's going to be really fascinating and
I think that it is absolutely worth discussing. And to
be fair, I think this is a topic that a
lot of Christian podcasters would not be willing to touch.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
So let's talk about witchcraft.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Yeah, so I'm going to give you background on kind
of where this came from. So I heard someone and
I don't remember where, don't remember what the context was,
but it stuck with me. Someone said, some kinds of
prayer and prayer in air quotes, some kinds of prayer
can actually be a form of witchcraft, meaning Christians who
(01:01):
are doing certain types of prayer in air quotes. It's
witchcraft masquerading as prayer, and it's infiltrated the Christian community.
And so that my question started there of Okay, can
prayer in a Christian context be witchcraft in disguise? And
if so, absolutely, we want to know, and we want
(01:23):
to know why and how and how to identify it
and how not to do it right.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So that's kind of where that came from.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That No, it's going to be really fascinating, and I
am excited because I don't. I sort of made you
stop telling me your thoughts where this episode was going
to go because I wanted to experience it fresh.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
But I am also really.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Intrigued, and I have been for a very long time
at the sociological history of people being named, which is, so,
let's the practice of like evil spells or demonic worship
or things that are spiritually uns safe and sinful. But
this idea that a woman who knew how to make
(02:08):
a tea that could make somebody feel better after having
a miscarriage might get killed because people claim she was
a witch. Right, I am really intrigued at that interspection,
because I believe that the religious powers that were and
maybe be sometimes we're afraid of women, specifically who had
(02:33):
unorthodox interpretations of scripture or philosophies on life, And what
better way to get rid of them than to convince
a mob they're a witch and burnament mistake. So we're
going to be We're going to be getting into some
really interesting territory I am sure.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Well, just to kind of give an overview of what
we're talking about, because when I hear the word witchcraft,
the first thing that comes to my mind is, you know,
double double toil and trouble, you know, cald and burn whatever,
fire burn and cauldron bubble, like you know, women standing
around with pointy hats over potions and stuff. But in
(03:14):
the biblical worldview that we're reading from, witchcraft wasn't magic necessarily.
I mean, it entailed elements of that, but it was
really at its core a rebellion against God's authority and
trying to There are a few different things that it entailed,
like trying to control outcomes spiritually or in some way
(03:37):
manipulating outcomes with your human abilities, or by tapping into
darker spiritual forces instead of trusting God. Seeking hidden knowledge.
That was another thing, which involved wanting to know the future,
wanting to know secret knowledge that was forbidden by God,
(03:58):
appealing to other spirit beings so that would entail spirits, demons,
the dead, false gods, the rulers and principalities that are
not God, and so all of those things. Divination, which
is very interesting because I always think of like divination
(04:21):
in the carnal sense is, you know, like reading tea
leaves stuff like that, but also trying to predict or
uncover the future with different supernatural means like pagan casting
of lots, reading omens or scigns, astrology like practices. And
this is kind of like where we get the command
(04:42):
in Exodus twenty to eighteen, which says you may not
permit a sorceress to live. So you know, these are
all different ways that can kind of be like lumped
into that witchcraft category. And so we're not talking about
prayers that are like casting bells necessarily. We're talking about
(05:02):
using prayer as a means of basically taking a shortcut
to a road that God has not intended us to shortcut.
And huh so, yeah, so that's just kind of a
basic overview, and there are different categories of witchcraft that
kind of fall into those, but we can talk about
that too. But you've got your mediums, you've got spiritists,
(05:24):
you've got necromancers, idolators.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So yeah, yeah, Well I didn't come up with it
just her fun question because I wasn't exactly sure where
we're going with this, but I do have a joke.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Are you ready for it. Yes, you might have heard
this one. I think it's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
And my child did me a disservice because she gave
me like a hearty belly laugh when I told it
to him, So I think it's probably like a lot
funnier than it is. Okay. A woman stannstairs in the
living room and she shouts up to her husband and
she says, Honey, do you ever get like a stabbing
pain right at the base of your skull, like somebody's
(06:05):
got a voodoo doll of you and they're just jabbing
it with needles And he shouts down no, And then
in like a half a minute later, she calls up,
what about now?
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Okay, good you. I think you gave me at least
that time.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
That's a good one. I think that's pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah. Well, before we dive deeper in, could you open
this up in some prayer.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Yes, God, we just pray that you would be present
today during this conversation. We pray that you would open
our eyes, that you would help us to just be
open minded and not not afraid to dive into this
kind of unorthodox topic, and just help us to be
able to pray with more purity and more single heartedness
(06:55):
as a result of thinking about these things. And we
just pray that you would open our eyes to anyways
that we are falling into traps of praying in ways
that are not healthy and not scriptural and biblical and
not glorifying to you.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So I did think of it just for fun. Were
there any witches in movies or anything that you were
super scared of growing up? Oh?
Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, the Wizard of Oz, it was the witch and
the monkey beats then totally freaked me out as a.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
She she was a scary witch. Have you seen the clip?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Mister Rogers invited the actress on into his home because
so many kids were scared of her that he invited
her to come dressed as herself and like, hey, look,
I'm a nice woman, and I.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Put on a costume.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And then she put on her her costume and gave
the little laugh, and it helped kids to realize, oh,
like she's she herself is not evil, She's just pretending
to be. What's really cute about the Wizard of Oz
is when my kids were little, our Youngoss maybe around
three or four, and so he could follow the story
kind of you know, like enough where he recognized the
(08:02):
characters but didn't like he couldn't tell you, you know, beginning,
middle and end and all of that. He called the
witch green guy, and he didn't realize it was a woman.
And I think it's adorable because I think there was
something like very cute in his worldview, that like only
men could be that mean and scary.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
So I thought it was pretty cute.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
That is cute green She was green guy.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
That is too funny.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I was the most scared of the witches from Snow
White and Sleeping Beauty, And I was gonna really tell
you which was more, probably Sleeping Beauty because she turns
into the dragon, right.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
I don't remember, but I just know the one with
the apple that was Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
That was Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
No ye, snow white, white Apple.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And she is scary when she turns into the old woman.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
She's scary. The old woman part was scary for me.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yeah, I think we hit on like everybody in our age,
rackets three scares witches.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Most like I would agree.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So let's start with what we absolutely fundamentally know to
be wrong and sinful. And you already labeled some of it,
but I want to make it super clear. So anything
that's communicating with the dead or supernatural beings that are
not God the Father, God the Son, and God the
(09:26):
Holy Spirit. I think that in my brain, those are
like the like Tebya and Fiddler on the Roof. There
is no other hand, right, Like, there is no way
to look at the Bible.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And say, oh, but what about this.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
So if it has anything to do with conjuring up
the dead or praying to a spiritual thing that is
not spirit.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
Guide, or relying on the spirit guide for information, I
would include praying to angels, which is something that has
crept into the church and people think that's cool and
that you know, I mean, do I believe that angels
are real?
Speaker 3 (10:06):
Absolutely do.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
I believe that we have guardian angels, probably based on
what we read in scripture, and that they're everywhere doing
God's bidding and they love us and they minister to us.
But it is sinful to pray to angels. And I
think we need to make that really clear because I
think of all of the ways that we could stray
(10:27):
into the realm of what we would now consider witchcraft,
I think praying.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
To angels would be in that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Yeah, because it feels innocuous on a level, most of
us would say that if you're saying a prayer to
the devil, then you're probably not doing something that a
Christian should condone, right, But yeah, basically, if you are
praying to an angel or a faint or your dead
(10:56):
grandmother who was an amazing prayer warrior and of Jesus,
like I believe that those things are very forbidden in Scripture.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
At the basic level of the definition of trying to
control outcomes spiritually, I think a lot of things fall
under that, and I think.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That's what prayer is, though, so I need to hear
your definition better.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
I'm sorry, So trying to control outcomes spiritually apart from God,
so it can get probably gray in some areas. But
if you're if you're trying to control an outcome apart
from God, so I would put manifesting in its pure
(11:57):
detached from God for sure. If you're I'm just basically
trying to manifest something without any regard to God's power,
you know what, I think what I'm going to do
is back up and I'm going to say that if
you are viewing prayer as a way to wield power
(12:18):
yourself instead of as a way to open the floodgates
of God's power coming into earth to bring His kingdom
come and as will be done on earth as it
is in heaven, or even approaching God to have his
power intervene in a way that you are praying and
petitioning and begging and knocking down the door. Yes, you're
(12:41):
trying to control an outcome because you want something, But
if you're approaching it from if I just muster up
enough within myself to manifest this as opposed to if
I just knock and seek and keep on praying, then
maybe God, will you know, make this happen.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Do you see the difference that I'm.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
I do see the difference I do, And I'm not
sure I agree with you? Okay, I want you have
to say, yeah, I think that this idea that I
mentioned at the beginning of the burning of witches, and
let's let's use it as witches with a small w
of basically just a woman with spiritual independence outside of
(13:28):
the religious powers of her day. I feel like the
devil doesn't want those kind of women, and the power
hungry church didn't want that kind of women. And I
think that what you're describing as the fear of being
a quote witch and in certain cases be used to
(13:52):
keep us praying small.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Yes, I definitely see that.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I still think though, that if you're trying to control
things through your power and not God, not God's power,
it's I think that's why I was saying, I'm going
to back it up. I think I'm backing it up
to your intention and who you're because I see what
(14:17):
you're saying, and you're right that idea has in my
life paralyzed me because I feel like, well, first I
have to know what God wants before I can pray
with power. Yeah, and that is not That's not what
I'm talking about though, for sure, And I'm glad you
brought that up, because that's not what I definitely don't
think that's true. I think it is when we believe
(14:42):
that we control our own destiny by mustering up enough
and we sort of tag God onto it, that's when
it becomes sinful.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Is that a better way to say it.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
That's I can seed to all of that. And I
do feel like these types of mine or world views,
is what I'm trying to say, have crept into the
church and into our theology and into our prayer lives.
I think, however, some people, for the sake of theological purity,
(15:15):
are going to throw out too many babies with too
much bathbone it. And you've got to be so discerning
to know. Like, so, what I would hate is for
somebody to listen to this and all of a sudden
and be like, oh, no, I've been praying way too boldly.
God must be so mad at me. I need to
get back into my humble little corner. I need to
stay in my lane.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
No, And I don't, yeah, definitely don't want that to happen.
What would you say is the I mean, I would
say the litmus test is who do you attribute power to?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yes, are you praying to God? Or are you praying
to divine power within yourself? Or are you praying to
either a heavenly or evil or deceased entity. And if
it's answer is not God, then you're doing it wrong well.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
And I think one of the ways that kind of
illustrates what I'm thinking of is the like power of
words movement within certain Christian denominations and segments can get
into this where it puts the emphasis on the words
alone yes and tax got on as an afterthought, and
(16:31):
it's like, you control your destiny by saying these words.
And again you words have power for sure, And I
think there is a fine line between, like we talked
about in our last episode, choosing your words carefully, making
sure that you're speaking life, that you're you know, if
you're going to have a self fulfilling prophecy, let it
be a good one and not a limiting one for sure.
(16:56):
But I think when we put the focus on the
words above and beyond God, then.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
But it's tough.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
It's tough because it's tough not to abuse it, and
it's tough not to be so afraid of words and
the power of words that God tells us, you know,
like as a man speaks, so he is right and
so's there's a balancing act to be had, and I
think we have to be careful not to overdo either side.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, So let's talk about the dangers of both extremes
so that people can identify which extremely you're more likely
to fall into if you resonate with the picture of
somebody shaming you, Like if you were to pray as
boldly as you can imagine, and you go to people
(17:48):
or yourself or God wagging fingers and saying who do
you think you are? Then you probably don't need to
worry about airing on the side of dabbling in witchcraft,
needs to err on the side of growing more faith
and claiming what truly is yours in Christ. If you
(18:10):
lean the other way and to the point where everything
you do has fear tacked onto it, because oh, if
I say this one thing, then you know God's going
to curse me, Or you know, I forgot to say
bless you to my nephew and now the devil's going
(18:30):
to steal his soul. Right, if you're living in fear
of all of this, and I think that's an indication
you've gotten to the way other extreme or and this
is the only one that I think would be hardest
for people to recognize in themselves, and that is if
it's only about you and your pride, because I can
(18:51):
definitely picture who you're talking about. And no, I don't
have like an individual in mind, but I can picture
the personality of somebody who will pray and who will
sound like a genuine faith filled, spirit filled prayer warrior,
but their focuses on themselves. So I think that maybe
(19:12):
a good litmus test to know if you're erring in
that extreme. It's almost like, if this prayer that you're
boldly praying doesn't come true, what happens in your brain?
And if it's a surrender, if it's oh, I guess
God had something even better in store, Okay, that's an
indication that you're still giving God the glory even if
(19:33):
it's disappointment. If it's like, oh, wow, I really wanted
this to happen. I will surrender to God's will, but man,
this sucks, Okay, that shows humility. If it's oh, no,
I'm gonna look so bad because I prayed for this
thing and it didn't come true. Or if it's God,
that's not fair because I believed in this. I think
(19:54):
those are the mindsets that would show that you are
praying in human power, not divine power.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
I can also see putting others on a pedestal as
being a form of witchcraft in idolatry. When let's say
you have someone that you consider a mentor and I
actually got into like kind of crossing the line on this,
I would say where I I almost viewed this person
as kind of like my shortcut to God, like.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
As a and and this person was very insightful and perceptive,
and when she prayed over me, I took it as
gospel and I almost went to her like a medium.
And I don't mean that in a literal sense, but
what I mean is I almost was like, this person
(20:47):
is speaking the word of God over me, and I
really put her on a pedestal and went to her
for it was almost like like, Okay, I got to
go to this person to hear from God, and that
it's dangerous. That's basically going to someone as a medium
between you and God. And we don't have that Jesus
(21:07):
as our high priest, and you know, we have the
Holy Spirit. Not to say again that you want to
take it too far and not have mentors, not have
people that you feel like are mature and have a good,
good relationship with God and speak words of truth in life.
But it's where is your heart is that person? Are
(21:27):
you feeling like you have to go through that person
to get to God or not?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
And I think I think fear.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
It can, and I think fear can be a pretty
good litmus test. It's just because on the one hand, yeah,
I have mentors, and even now, if I'm about to
make a big decision, I'd be like, I would love
to chat with Becca about this, because I know she's
going to ask me the right questions to help me
to see clearly there's a difference between that, and so
(21:56):
then it would actually be foolish for me. If God
is given me a person like that in my life,
it would not be the smartest for me to make
a big decision if I had the opportunity to not,
you know, it would be foolish me to say, well,
I can't ask Beck about this because I don't want to.
I don't want to rely too much on her for
spiritual guidance. This has to be between God and me.
(22:19):
On the other hand, I think where you know that
it's gone too far is if it becomes fear based,
if it's if you're paralyzed. Oh sorry, Jamie, I don't
know if I can record with you today or not
because I haven't talked to Becca. That's a problem, right,
or you know, yeah. I think really a huge litmus
(22:43):
test in so many parts of our spiritual life, and
especially in this one, is your primary motivation fear And
if so, that's an indication that you're off balance. So
if it's, I am so glad that God has given
sobody with wisdom that I can talk to, and I
(23:04):
believe that at times He will use this person to
ask me questions and in that process I will discover
God's will. I think that's wonderful. I wouldn't worry about
that from a spiritual standpoint. Where it becomes worrisome is
if ooh, I'm so scared that if I don't pray
(23:27):
before my meeting with Becca this afternoon, she might tell
me something wrong and God's skinned, you know. Or oh,
I actually can't make this decision because my next call
with my coach isn't for three more weeks, so sorry,
you know. Then it becomes fear based, and I can't
think of much good that comes out of fear based
(23:48):
decisions in the Christian life.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So the idea though, of being able to know the
future and what some people might call divination or you know,
there are bajillion words for it. I mean, in the Bible,
there were prophets who would speak to future events. You
and I have talked about sometimes like God giving you
(24:12):
a little bit of a head step. So where do
those kinds of things fall into this, and how do
you know if this is something that's verging on spiritually
dangerous territory.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yeah, well, I think like with the prophets, they were
always clear who was telling them these things, that it
was God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and
in that realm. I always thought it was kind of
funny that, like the way you discern whether someone is
from God or not is whether the thing comes to pass.
But you know, basically, I would say if you are
(25:01):
seeking to know the future from someone other than God himself,
I mean, I've heard of people speaking prophetic words over people,
and the Bible says don't treat prophecies with contempt, test everything.
So I hold that it's possible that someone could speak
a prophetic word over you and say this is from
(25:22):
the Lord. He said, you know this is going to happen.
I would say tread very lightly there if it's not solicited.
If you're going to someone to find out the future,
and you're soliciting their advice, most people think of that
as going to like a future fortune.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Tellig teller, medium or what.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I don't know the proper terms for all of them,
but that's not coming from God. And I honestly don't
see any evidence in the Bible, aside from prophets who
were already established and known to be hearing from God.
There were kings that would say is this going to happen?
Or is this going to happen?
Speaker 3 (26:04):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
As us for us everyday Christians, I don't know that
that would be a healthy thing to do, to go
to someone and say, what does God say about the future.
I don't see a precedent there because I don't know.
I think that's very dangerous. But the bottom line is
who is that information coming from? If it's coming, who
are you seeking it out from? And if someone is
(26:26):
coming to you with future knowledge, I would test it
heavily and be very cautiously skeptical, shrewd as serpents, I
would say.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, I think that's I think that makes a lot
of sense, and I think it does a good job
like not saying, well, God never speaks about the future anymore,
or anybody who pretends to know about future events is
of the devil. I don't believe either of those are true.
But yeah, it's not a common thing. It's not something
to go and seek out. I absolutely have had times
(26:58):
for God has told me that something is going to
happen and I know that it is from the Lord. However,
those aren't things I go and seek out. They are there,
So to me, it's kind of like I don't need
to go to a you know, Christian fortune teller to
(27:18):
know this. If God wants me to know something, I'm
going to know. I also think it'd be totally fine,
Like if there was I could totally see coming to
you and be like, Jamie, I feel like God's told
me this thing about my kid. I really want to
pray with you about it, because like this picture that
God gave me is really worrisome. This is a hypothetical,
but I could totally see that is this just a
(27:41):
mother's anxiety or is this something that God is putting
on my heart through the Holy Spirit as a prophecy
And you won't know that until you have some prayer
and praying with somebody else can be so, but it's
got to be the right person, you know. Some people
are so closed off to any of this that they
would be the right person to ask for prayer for that.
(28:04):
So yeah, it's it's really interesting because on the one hand,
I sometimes wonder we talk a lot about not getting superstitious.
I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as a
non superstitious human though, or if some people we just
call thing superstitions because they're not what we believe, you
(28:24):
know what I mean, Like some people are superstitious about
having to say in Jesus' name Amen, or you know,
I think some people are gonna get feathers offold. I
think some people treat the sinner's prayer superstitiously.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
It's you say.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
These magic words and then no matter what, your salvation
is secure forever. And I do not believe that God
is up there like choosing every day. If she died today,
would I save or or not? I don't believe that
that is up for question. But I also don't think
that it's as simple as getting a four year old
to chance some words, you know, I mean talk about
(29:00):
witchcraft and spells.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I think it so.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
All I'm saying is I am open to the possibility
that we are all so superstitious and some of us
just don't know it, because, yes, because.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
We're blind to it, because it's our culture, it's our
Christian culture.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:18):
I also want to just give a word of warning.
So I recently heard one of the podcasts I was
listening to about like Big Church Scandal. There was a
guy in a church movement who had these huge, basically
auditoriums of people, and he was claiming to be able
(29:38):
to know about people before, like without them having told
him anything about themselves. And he was basically acting like
a medium, only with slapping God on it. So he
would have people come and say you live on is
there someone here who's name is starts with a J.
(30:03):
I'm thinking of Jerry and they live on some kind
of road. I'm picturing a black bird. And someone will
be like, oh, my name's Jerry and I live on
Crow Lane or whatever.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
And he was doing this.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
He was literally going on Facebook and getting information about people.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
He's getting the list hilarious ahead of time.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
Well, the sad thing is people that fell for it
were like, how did I fall for this? He was
literally going on Facebook, like I wanted so much to
receive a word from God because of something difficult I
was going through. And so just a word of caution
please if someone My thought is, what why is he
(30:47):
doing that stuff?
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Like you know?
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And then he would say, Oh, God loves you. God
gave me that information to note to let me know
that He sees you and so that you feel loved.
That seems like a good thing. But just be really
careful when anyone, even a Christian claiming to know God,
claiming to be hearing from God, says something, whether it's
telling the future, prophesying the end of the world, which
(31:12):
I mean that's its own thing, prophesying when something is
going to happen, Just you know, really test everything, especially
in today's day and age.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yeah, I mean sometimes it's laughable. Sometimes it's really sad.
I think that if anybody listening has fallen prey to
like a spiritual scam like that, I think what I
would want to tell you is, hey, you're not. You
shouldn't feel ashamed, like shame on that person for being
(31:43):
a Charlatan, right, And it is a gift and a
privilege that you aren't so skeptical that you didn't see
it coming, right.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
That shows that.
Speaker 3 (31:53):
Your just does and trusting.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And I would go so far as to say that
if you are hungry for a word from the Lord,
God knows what you need. God has spoken to people.
My favorite story I have two funny stories about this.
I knew one guy who got saved at a Michael
Jackson concert because the song You Were Not Alone touched
him so much and he truly felt like God was
(32:17):
singing it to him. I also know of somebody who
got saved reading the Koran, and I forget the story behind,
like as saved as a Christian, but it was a
verse from the Qoran that somehow led him to the Bible.
So God can use anything, So shame on the charlatan
like shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. And this is coming
(32:37):
from somebody who doesn't like shame people.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
But you should not be ashamed. And if God happens.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
To speak to you through that.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
That's okay too.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
God has spoken to me through musicals written by non Christians.
God has spoken to me through paintings painted by non Christians.
So why couldn't God, I'd have spoken to you through
a Charlatan. It's sad to come to terms with, but
I just want to leave that for people, and you
(33:10):
know it is, it's it's so laughable. It's kind of
like horoscopes that are so vague that like you can't
be wrong, you know, to cookies too. Yeah, So I
want to close with just a quick discussion about things like,
let's let's do fortune cookies. My husband will not participate
when we go to a Chinese restaurant and are given
(33:31):
fortune cookies. He chooses not to participate because to him,
that's too close to horoscopes, which is too close to astrology,
which is too close to witchcraft. My thought is, these
are fun and silly, and we always do the with
the chainsaw afterwards.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Do you know I like that? No, I view that.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah, so you take whatever it says on the fortune
cookie and you add the words with the chainsaw, so
it will say you will you will achieve your dreams
with a chainsaw or something. So I believe certain things
are totally innocuous. I believe certain things are extremely sinful,
(34:07):
and then I believe that there are some things that
are probably dangerous to be treated with caution, that certain
people definitely should completely stay away from. What's your opinion
on how to know which of those categories something falls into?
So totally innocuous, that's how I treat a fortune cookie. Okay,
totally sinful like praying to the dead, and then the
(34:31):
stuff that is potentially dangerous that some people should absolutely
not participate in. Like when some of my dad's great
great aunts and uncles passed, he would not go to
Buddhist funerals, whereas other people might say, I know that
I am not Buddhist, so this doesn't bother me.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
That's tough, and I would say that it's possible, like
you said, that one thing would be right for one
person and not for another. The Bible even says that.
But like, you know, it's like meat sacrifice to idols.
If you know that that meat that was sacrificed to
idols is in itself just a bunch of you know,
(35:14):
a newspapers, you know, Yeah that basically, like you know,
then you can eat it. If your conscience feels bad
about it because maybe you used to be that religion
and you feel like it's dishonoring to God, then don't
do it.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
But I so it is.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
I think there's a degree of specificity for the person.
So I think the basic question that you can ask
yourself is, I mean, the Bible says all things are permissible,
but not all are beneficial, and maybe you could just
think is this beneficial? Like let's say, sitting around the
table with your kids opening fortune cookies. It's just kind
(35:53):
of fun and it makes you laugh and it's a
bonding experience and you're not taking it seriously, so there's
literally nothing hurting you and it's benefiting you as a
family because it's fun. I guess like maybe that could
be the litmus test. Is there even a chance that
it could be a gateway into something dangerous?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Would be my stopping point.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
You know, I think let's talk about fortune tellers. I
think some are total shams who know they're scamming people.
Some are probably shams who think they're legit, and I
believe that some of them truly do have at least
the desire to interact with something otherworldly, which would absolutely
put them on the level of stay away.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
So stay away.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
From all of them, right, That's kind of where I
fall or. I think most horoscopes that you read in
the newspaper are gibberish and nonsense, But I still choose
not to read them because, like you said, who knows
where the line ends and who knows what's going to
be the gateway for my husband the fortune cookies to get?
Speaker 1 (37:00):
And that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
He doesn't make us feel bad for reading them, and
we don't make him feel bad for not And so yeah,
I think though that being aware of the gateways and
absolutely being aware when you've passed over it is important. Simultaneously,
I think that we do have more divine rights than
(37:21):
we are often permitted to acknowledge, and sometimes the fear
of falling under something that might be which crafty can
keep us from truly becoming as powerful in our prayers
as God wants us to be. But that might be
I'd be a story for another day.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Now.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
I think that's a really good point to end on
and to kind of top it off just as another
reminder that the enemy could just as much use fear
of treading in this area to keep you from praying
with power and authentically as he could use your ignorance
(38:07):
and failure to be wise and relying only on your
physical carnal self in some of these areas. I think
they're both equal and opposite dangers, and so let's bookend
those and just you know, thank God we have the
Holy Spirit, so we can continue to seek the Holy Spirit.
(38:27):
We can, you know, just pray that God would help
us to pray in spirit and in truth and with power.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah. Amen, Well, let's close with our blessing mendediction when
your heart rejoiced today, that you might be suffering grief
in all sorts of trials in the midst of your testing,
That your spirit and body be kept blameless until the
day of Christ's return. May His hope sustain you through
whatever values you journey through. May He turn all your
darkness into light and close you with robes of rejoicing
(38:59):
instead of a spirit of despair.
Speaker 4 (39:02):
And our benediction is from Romans Chapter eight, verses thirty
eight and thirty nine. For I am sure that neither
death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present,
nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth,
nor anything else in all of creation will be able
to separate us from the Love of God in Christ,
Jesus our Lord.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
We'd like to take just a quick second to thank
the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us
on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
and so much more. That's lifeaudio dot Com.
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com