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How do we protect our kids spiritually and set wise boundaries without raising them in a culture of fear?
In this episode, Jaime and Alana dive into the nuanced—and sometimes controversial—topic of navigating Halloween, fantasy media, and cultural traditions as Christians. They discuss the critical difference between setting healthy spiritual boundaries and letting “religious default settings” or fear-based superstition dictate our choices, exploring why treating pop culture with extreme suspicion can sometimes do more harm than good.
Alana highlights the historical weaponization of the word “witch” by old-school religious establishments to silence women and control spiritual independence, sparking a deeper conversation about how we label things as “evil” without thoughtful examination. Meanwhile, she opens up about her own attempt to watch Harry Potter as an adult and the surprising “nocebo” effect—how deeply ingrained beliefs that something is spiritually dangerous can trigger real spiritual and emotional unease—showing how our upbringing can shape our reactions even when we intellectually know better. Jaime shares her evolving perspective on allowing her children to engage with the series, moving from a more permissive stance to a greater awareness of potential spiritual “open doors,” while still rejecting blanket outrage in favor of Holy Spirit-led discernment.
Along the way, they swap practical wisdom on navigating the gray areas of modern Christian parenting and culture. From the beautiful analogy of treating young children like delicate seedlings that need extra protection while older ones must develop resilience through measured exposure, to an eye-opening experience at an Alaska Native Heritage Center, to their kids’ own self-censoring decisions with Percy Jackson and Coco, they offer a discerning yet grace-filled perspective. They emphasize the importance of teaching our children how to think biblically for themselves rather than simply handing down rigid rules, and they guard against the easy temptation to judge other believers who reach different conclusions.
Whether you are wrestling with what media to allow in your home, trying to break free from the fear-based religious environment you grew up in, or simply need a reminder to seek God’s specific wisdom for your family instead of defaulting to either permissiveness or paranoia, we hope this episode encourages you to lead with prayerful discernment, intentionality, and confident grace.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Life Audio. Hello, welcome to Praying Christian Women. I am
Alanic here with Jamie. How are you.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm doing great?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
How about you good? Are you ready to talk about witches? Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Yeah, definitely. And it's not even October, so it's like October,
you know what, June right.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
So here's a question. I know off air, we were
just talking about, like do we have a just for
fun question and we don't really need one. Did you
guys do Halloween growing up and with your own kids?
And if so, what was that like?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, it was kind of so I grew up doing
Halloween and didn't even think twice about it.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So I went to a church that like, so this.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Is in the early eighties when I was a young
kid doing you know, dressing up like I think my
first Halloween costume was like a witch with the mask,
the green mask and you know, the one from Wizard
of Oz or something, and I didn't think anything of
it didn't even occur to me. I even remember at
our church, like we had a Halloween. It wasn't a
harvest festival. It wasn't like any of the alternative things.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, one of the one of the ladies.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Was dressed up like a witch with a you know,
pointy black hat with like a cauldron like it. It
wasn't a thing or a discussion at that time, and
it wasn't until much later that I started really understanding
kind of there are some concerns and roots. And our
kids did dress up. We never let them dress up
(01:36):
like anything a cult or.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Like scary, but it was.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
But we did let our kids go around the neighborhood,
and you know, we would do sometimes kind of try
to use it as an opportunity to reach out to
the community. And we had like you know, like the
cross shaped jack O'Lantern or whatever. I don't know, So
I don't know. I think I'm sure people would look
at that and say that it was wrong. I know
(02:06):
people have strong opinions on it. We did not take
a hardline stance on it, other than explaining that, you know,
we're looking at this as like getting to know our
neighbors a little bit better, maybe outreaching a little but yeah,
what about you guys.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, we did not do a lot with Halloween. We
were allowed to dress up for school, but it was
really really clear this was just our family rule, like
nothing scary.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So we know we're growing up or your kids. When
I was growing up, Okay, I remember being tinker Bell.
I remember, you know, things like that Cinderella fish one year,
which is hilarious looking back.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Oh yeah, really, but you know nothing, which is we're
probably the very worst. But even I don't think we
even did a time with like jack lanterns and stuff.
But our church did have a carnival party harvest festival
with candy and all the typical things. We just didn't
(03:12):
call it a Halloween party. But I don't know. I
think that when we were raising our kids, we made
it really clear, like this is how our family does it.
This is one area where our family was actually stricter
than my family growing up. I grew up pretty strict
in terms of just anything that might be seen as
(03:32):
a religious no no. And we didn't do Halloween at all.
We would let our kids go to a costume party,
but they didn't trick or treat up until like by
the time they were eleven or something, and their friends
were going and it was just to get candy. But
I remember, even as a mom, being scared walking through
(03:54):
Walmart at Halloween time and hating that they had the
goblins and the witches and I was like, Oh, my
kids are going to see this and be scared, or
be wood to evil, or just have images in their
mind that I didn't want them to have. And I
don't know, I love that we're talking about witchcraft specifically,
(04:17):
because the thing with the black pointy hat, like that
was such a taboo, Like that was one of the biggest,
Like it would almost be less offensive in certain circles
I was part of to walk up to a house
decorated for Halloween with like beheaded zombies than with a
(04:38):
woman in a black row with a black pointy hat
and a cauldron. Yeah, And so it makes me wonder
how much of that is just superstition. It makes me
wonder a little bit of what we talked about last time,
how much of that is a way that old school
religious establishments tried to exert their authority. So basically, if
(05:02):
you don't believe in our dogma, even if it wasn't
biblically sound or theologically sound, and you happen to be
a woman, then we have an easy out of calling
you a witch and silencing me. But however, there's obvious
reasons to not get sucked into that, you know, and
to have a lot of spiritual care and discernment, and
(05:24):
so I'm really excited we get to chat about it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, me too, Me too. I think there's a lot
of I don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I like to take things and try to strip away
a lot of the what ifs, talk about the what ifs,
but strip them away and boil it down to Okay,
what is the truth here? What's an easy litmus test?
And so I feel like we're going to get through
all of that today and have a lot of great discussion.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I think. So Scott and I were young youth pastors
when the first and Arnia movie came out, and we
were really excited because this was before people made like
a lot of specifically Christian movies, and so this was
a really big deal. And we were planning a huge
(06:10):
like pree movie party and post watching devotion time and
someone from church came up to us. Actually it was
someone who was not much older than we were, and
I think even approached me and not my husband, and
he was like, so tell me again why you're taking
(06:33):
the youth group and kids in our church to a
movie where the bad guy's a witch? You know, just
kind of in that exact ton of voice, and I
didn't know how to answer. So if someone asked you
that today, would you have kind of a ready response.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I think I would say that it was written by
someone who's, you know, kind of a longtime renowned Christian
author and thinker. That it is kind of like saying,
why read a book that contains demons in it? Like
(07:11):
I eve the Bible that you know, the witch is
symbolizing evil and symbolizing it's not like you know, and
I'm not gonna say like, I'm going to just be
totally out there and.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
This might offend people.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
My kids have read and seen Harry Potter, which I
know a lot of people don't like, and I can
see why. But it's not like Harry Potter where the
hero is a wizard. It is like, this is a
movie that is allegorical, that points to Christ, that has
lots of good discussion, and the bad guy is a
(07:46):
witch because the bad guy is evil.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You know, I don't know that's kind of that.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
It is you can't just avoid evil, and so to
see a movie where evil is portrayed as a witch
is allegorical and whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
That's how I would explain it is that we were
seeking to teach truth and C. S. Lewis was a
truth teller in the storytelling way, and it all points
back to the Gospel.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think that's really well said. I think if you
want to get kind of snarky about it, literally, anything
that parents would try to get a book banned from
a school library for it's going to show up somewhere
in the Bible. Do you know what I mean? Like,
think of any reason why a parent would stand up
and say this book can't be in here, and at
(08:40):
the very least that subject is discussed in the Bible. Yeah,
So I don't think that we can throw something out
just because it talks about demonic influences, or just because
it talks about sex, or just because it talks about violence.
These are all things that are in the Bible. We
don't have to glorify them, don't have to be grotesque.
(09:02):
But even then, like Paul had a little bit of
a grotesque mouth, you know, like some of his insults
were were not rated g And Yeah, it's an interesting
kind of thing. It's sort of like in the same
way that we think of not we, you and me.
But there's a segment that assumes that Shakespeare is like
(09:27):
very hoity toity and it was so refined and respectable,
and like people didn't allow their wives to go to
the theater because Shakespeare was seen as so raunchy, you know.
But so I think some of it just has to
do with the lens you're looking through.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
It it is, and I think it's important to dissect
things like that person might have been. You know, I
could I could totally see why someone would be like,
you know, this idea of a witch is too scary.
I don't want to plant those ideas in my kid's head.
That's fine, But in terms of just like if it
has this in it, then it's automatically bad or that
(10:10):
it's not valuable for discussion, and you know, I think
I think those things need to be looked at and
not just shunned for the sake of shunning. On the
other hand, I can see where there are things like
Harry Potter, for instance. I have allowed my kids to
watch it and read it, and we've had discussions about it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
The more I learn about it.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I can totally see I may not have been discerning enough,
and at this point it's kind of too late. But
you know, there I've heard people talk about how there
are actual, you know, like spells being glorified.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I just I really feel like like there's there's a
place for discussion, and there's a place for caution, absolutely,
and if you're going to air err on the side
of caution, but if you know, if there are things
that you've already labeled as good or bad, maybe at
least give it the opportunity of discussion and dissection about
(11:14):
why do I consider this bad and why.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Do I slack this label on this thing?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Right? Yeah, yeah, I like that. And I think, especially
with it from a parent lens, I think the younger
(11:39):
your kids are, the more it does make sense to
be zealously protective. I think about you know, it's springtime here,
it's seedling time. You treat a seedling way differently than
you treat the full grown plant.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, you know, the full.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Grown plant, you don't want to over caudle. You want
to expose it to some wind and you know, to
let it dry out some and you know, to go
through some stress to make it strong. When it's a seedling,
you want to give it as picture perfect conditions as
(12:18):
you can until it gets strong. Enough to be rooted
in itself. I think that's a good analogy. Yeah, with
Harry Potter, I think there's another sense of when you
look at it through your lens. So we've talked a
lot before about how my dad will abstain from anything
(12:39):
on our Japanese side of the family that might be
like Shinto based or things like that. And as of now,
this is more like his grandparents, sir, aunts, and uncle's generation.
Like right now, I don't know that there's even anybody
left who's got many remnants of that. But as an example,
my brother and I were some of the only cousins
(13:01):
who didn't participate in like a Japanese cultural school that
they offered every summer because my dad didn't want us
to be singing a song that might be worshiping a
false god or you know, things like that, which I
totally get, especially when you think about your kids being
young and needing that kind of protection. So for me,
(13:24):
because I didn't grow up the same way my dad did,
it wouldn't bother me to the extent that it would him.
I would still be cautious about certain things. But you know,
like your daughter has had more Japanese cultural training than
my kids. That's right. She got to go to the
Japanese Emmergion program at her elementary school for a few years.
(13:47):
I would have loved to at least have looked into
that for them, and I would have looked into it
before I would have enrolled them to you know, to
give it kind of the gut and the spirit check
to say, because my dad had the beliefs that he did,
it would have been wrong for him and it was
(14:07):
wise for him to abstain. As a young adult, I
grew up, you know, pretty conservative Christian kid in the nineties,
like Harry Potter.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Was a big no no, you know, like it was.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
It was not quite to this level, but we were
just one degree above like the youth groups who would
like burn Harry Potter books to make a statement or right, yeah,
you know. And then my husband is a huge fantasy fan,
and he was like, it's just a book. And so
(14:43):
even before we had decided whether our kids were going
to read or whatnot, our kids weren't even you know,
a reading age. I don't think I started to watch
the first movie, and by that point I had I
started a movie with an open mind. I truly do
believe that I did. And then it got to the
scene where like there's floating pumpkins and all of this stuff,
(15:05):
And it was very funny because logically I could tell
myself that this is a kid's movie, and there are like,
there is nothing that is going to come out of
this screen and possess my soul. If I watched floating
pumpkins or whatever. I don't remember that scene, but I
remember it made me feel uneasy, and so I had
(15:29):
a very logical discussion with myself and decided to turn
it off. So it wasn't quite the like ooh, my
gut clenched and so I can't do this and anybody
who watches it as horrible. It was more like, this
is interesting. Even though I thought that I could go
into this knowing that it was just a movie, and
even though I do not personally believe that every Christian
(15:51):
family should abstain from Harry Potter, I knew that because
I still had all those remnants of this is so evil,
this is so spiritually dangerous, that it wasn't a wise
choice for me to watch. You know, have you ever
heard of a no cibo? No, it's the opposite of
a placebo, where basically, if you're told that something is
(16:14):
going to be detrimental to you, it can happen. The
saddest example, I don't. I think there are a lot
of studies on placbo, like early studies I think were
very very unethical, but because you know, in order for
it to be a true placebo, the patient can't know, right.
So what they did they did this kids, which I
(16:35):
think is the worst. So they took kids who had
previously had allergic reactions to poison ivy. They blindfolded them,
they put a like they brushed their forearm with the leaf,
and they said, this is poison ivy and it wasn't.
And I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, but it
was something like fourteen out of fifteen of them developed
(16:57):
the same rash they would have if it had been poise.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Wow. So there truly is this idea of if you
believe something is going to be damaging to you, your
your body is going to kind of be like okay.
And so I think that's what was happening with me
for Harry Potter, and the fact that I had that
reaction does not mean that it's inherently evil or wicked.
It just means that it was not spiritually something that
(17:25):
felt good to me, so I stopped doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
No, I think that's very important and to listen to
your internal responses and you know, kind of look at
it that way. I mean, I originally went into it
very much like, eh, it's a pretend story. It's an
allegory of good and evil. Our kids we had conversations
(17:49):
about that some of the parallels between you know, even
biblically the good and evil and the spiritual battle. But
I'm kind of on the other side where I started
off kind of like not having any problem with it,
and I've the more I've learned, the more I'm like,
you know, evil can hide in all sorts of places.
(18:10):
And while I don't believe the author intentionally meant to
like sew you know, breadcrumbs of the occult in those books,
they're open doors, and so I do question my judgment
in retrospect. But I'm pretty much kind of like you
where it's like, you know what at this point, like
(18:32):
just do the best that you can with the knowledge
that you have be cautious. So I went into it
with my kids just kind of looking at it as
this is fantasy, this is even maybe allegorical of good
versus evil. We had conversations, some of them we even
related back to like, you know, good and evil in
the spiritual battle in biblical terms. But the more I
(18:55):
learned about it, the more I realized that evil can
hide in you know, it can insert itself into open doors.
And the more I learn about it, I don't believe
that JK. Rowling intended to necessarily so like evil into
these books. I think she just had a really cool
idea for a fun fantasy series for kids.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
But I don't doubt that there are possibilities that maybe
there's evil hiding in there. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I think, as always, you and I fall kind of
in the middle of all of it, saying don't be
overly reactionary. On the other hand, be really cautious, and
don't assume that just because something doesn't look bad on
the surface that there may or may not be bad
things in it, and especially when it comes to what
we allow our kids to be exposed to.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
I'm not going to take a stand one way or
another other than go to the Holy Spirit, ask God,
for wisdom, because in this particular case, I don't think
I ever really went to God and was like, Hey,
should I allow my kids to read this? I was
just like, it's fine. So if I could go back,
I would probably be more discerning and ask more quietquestions
of God, and you know, be a little bit more protective.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I think the two biggest takeaways I would give to
listeners when it comes to questions of should I let
my kids do this? Or is this something I should
participate in? For example, I was asked when I was
a pastor's wife in a small community, there was a
group that wanted to create basically like an ecumenical devotion
(20:27):
time where people.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Oh I remember this, this was a big deal.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
It turned into a really big deal and became super controversial.
And so these aren't just questions that parents have to
ask about their kids. And I think the two biggest
takeaways is be a thousand times more deliberate and discerning
(20:51):
than the default setting. So what you described with Harry
Potter is kind of like the default setting. It was
just sort of like, Okay, you know, be super deliberate,
super discerning, but also be like a thousand times less
judgmental of everybody else who has come to a different decision,
(21:11):
even if their decision is based off a default. So
if you're faced with a question, So for example, maybe
I'll use an example for like adults, so we're not
just talking about parents here. I've had storylines in my
head for like a novel that centers around a house
(21:32):
that everybody is convinced is possessed and you know, or
has like demonic influences in the house. To me, for
a Christian thriller, that sounds exciting, it sounds like a challenge.
It sounds a little bit scary, which I know is
always a good thing creatively when you get that tiny
bit of ooh, this is a little like I'm skirting
(21:53):
the line. So let's say I'm trying to decide if
I want to toe that line. The mistakes to make
would be to say, yeah, this sounds fun, I guess
I'll do it right, and to just kind of go
by default, and to not have any type of prayer
or any type of just deliberate owning my decision right,
(22:17):
like what I would do in this scenario. I hope
I'm not talking myself into writing this book, because IVE
got another book I want to write. First, if I
was in this scenario, basically, I would think about all
of the Christian readers who might be offended and come
back to me kind of like that man at church,
why are you taking kids to a movie with a witch?
(22:38):
And I would want to know, like before God, that
my conscience was clear, that I thought through every single
argument that they would throw at me. I thought through
arguments that they wouldn't have even thought to throw at me,
and not that like I had a defense for all
of it. But basically is like, you know what, I
asked myself that question before I wrote it too, and
(23:01):
I told myself my conscience and my Savior that I
would not write this book until that question was resolved
in my spirit. And that question got resolved in my spirit.
So being extremely deliberate about it is one step. And
then the other step is to let go of any
judgment against people who hold different opinions. Right, it would
(23:24):
be like, and if you're a Christian author who would
never touch this subject, I love you and that's great,
and I don't want you to touch this subject. And
if you're a reader and if you know, just in
the same way, like I've got a book about a nickubaby. Honestly,
I would never as a reader pick up a book
about a nickubaby, you know, and a writer wouldn't shouldn't
look down their nose at me, like what I wrote,
(23:46):
this beautiful book about a nickubaby. I would just be like,
this is not entertainment for me. And so if if
it was a reader who was like the line, I
love all your books, I'm passing on this one, you know,
and especially if it wasn't means, I would be like, yes,
that is the very best decision for you. And one
of those questions I would wrestle with in my spirit
(24:07):
is by writing this book, they would have the same
reaction that I had with Harry Potter and therefore shouldn't
pick it up. So I would need to wrestle with
by writing this book, am I causing others to stumble?
That would be another question that I would need to
be so resolved in. So A make your decision deliberate
(24:28):
and discerning, and B recognize it. A thousand people are
going to be faced with the same question and come
to nine hundred and ninety nine different reactions.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, I think those are such good points I love
that you mentioned both weighing your decisions fully then not
pointing fingers at others whose decision might be different and
probably is.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, did your kids ever face like their own spiritual dilemma?
Like for you and me in our generation, it was
the slumber party and they pull out the Wigi board.
You know, have your kids had any issues like that
that they've had to make decisions in the moment on
their own.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Not that I know of at this point.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
We've had talks about that as they have, you know,
as they got into the ages of sleepovers, we had
the talks about screens, what they're exposed to, what to
look away from if someone else has something, and we did.
I remember our daughter saying something about something they did
at a slumber party. It wasn't light as a feather,
(25:50):
stiff as a board, but it was one of those things.
It wasn't a Wigi board for sure, but there was
something that they did and it was recently and we
had to talk about it. And so it was funny
because she was looking at bracelets online, at these different
like crystal type bracelets, like you know, it would say
amethyst and I'm gonna get it wrong, but it wasn't
(26:13):
real amethyst, but it's like purple chen Z bracelets, but
it's like amethysts brings healing and positivity, and you know
cerealine is you.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Know, protection from evil or whatever. And she said, so I.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Know that that you think everything is demonic, but something
like that, I know that you think pretty much everything
is demonic, Like take a look at this, would it
be demonic or against God? Like for me to look
at getting these. So we had a whole conversation about
(26:48):
God creating minerals and rocks and how you know anyway,
and kind of the litmus tests. So maybe that's her
her crisis cathartic moment whatever is talking through some of these.
Like I said, you know, basically like what you're looking
at as like a fortune cookie. It's like someone coming
up with you know, and it's probably plastic or resin.
(27:11):
It's not even the stone. But then talking about how
with crystals with different kinds of things, like God created
all of them and maybe they have different properties, different
you know, frequencies they vibrate at or whatever, but there
are forces that probably and people who probably use them
(27:33):
for could use them for bad things. And so you know,
just talking about I guess to wrap things up, where
your heart is and what your focus is on. Is
your focus on glorifying God? Is your focus on acknowledging
that God is the source of power? Or is your
focus on looking to other things for power, such as
(27:57):
witchcraft or such as these alleged healing stones or healing
bracelets or whatever.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, I think one more things specifically to parents, is
it's better to teach your children to be thinking for
themselves than to just dictate those choices. So again we're
going back to the seedling. When they're young and impressionable,
you do everything in your power to protect them, even
(28:25):
if that means you don't go to Walmart in October
because there are scary images. Right to me, it's not
super over the top. I didn't like doing it. But
then as they get older, I came across as pretty
young because our kids were voracious and early readers, and
(28:45):
so like by mid elementary school, they could read things
that were written for like young adult audiences, you know,
like they had the reading capacity right to read Harry
Potter when they were like five and six. And so
I remember asking an online friend of mine, just her opinion,
(29:08):
because I'm like, I know you love to read. I
know that you shelter your children a lot. How do
you handle both? And she said the very best thing
my mom did for me was to allow me to
read a lot of books and to show me how
to protect myself. Because I think there was a time
(29:29):
where I had in mind that any book my kids
would read, I would read first, and then we'd have
like discussions about it and they'd all be you know,
I would be the gatekeeper. Well, that's fine if they're
reading Frog and Toad, right, But it's not okay when
they're you know, reading three hours a day in a
genre that I really don't care for anyway, and.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
They want to have to get a cliffs notes for
all of them.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yes, And this was even before like there were easily
google able like parent guide for this book and things
like that. And so what we taught our kids was,
these are the things that we want you to look
out for in these books. And we saw them make
some very admirable choices, kind of self censoring choices that
(30:17):
I loved and appreciated. Our oldest got way into Percy Jackson.
All of our kids like Percy Jackson. And it like
it does for so many kids. It got our oldest
really interested in Greek mythology, and so we had lots
of books about Greek mythology and on one of them
was so cute. He took a sharpie. Have I told
(30:39):
you this story. The name of the book was the
Greek Gods, and he took a sharpie and he put
a little G on the cover to like basically to
remind himself, right, like, this is not it's not even
on the same level as God with the big g
And there's actually I don't know it and I don't
even know it well enough to pair phrase it. But
(31:01):
there's a beautiful quote in the first Percy Jackson book
that talks about like God and the Greek pantheon. Oh wow,
it's really yeah, I mean it's it's I appreciated that
the author put that in there, where basically it's telling
Percy and by extension all the readers like everything we're
(31:24):
talking about here has nothing to do with what you
believe in, like in your religious life, you know. So
I liked that. And then my kids had a really
cute story when they were in elementary school, they did
homeschool in the morning, and then for a couple of
years they did the elementary school for the afternoon and
(31:45):
it was the last day of school, so they went
all day because it was you know, like the big
end of school party. So they came home like, oh,
what'd you guys do and said, well, the class watched
Coco and it was a new you know, it had
recently come out by then, and I was like, oh,
how was it? You know, I wasn't thinking. I was
just like, oh, new Pixar movie. And they were like, well,
we didn't watch it. We told our teacher that we
(32:08):
weren't allowed to. And basically, for people who don't know,
Coco is about the Mexican Day of the Dead, and
a lot of it has to do with like the
Mexican view of the afterlife, and so their language was,
my parents won't allow us to watch this. But I
didn't even know enough about the movie to have an
opinion one way or the other or to communicate that
(32:31):
to them. But basically they came to basically, well, how
it really went was child, the older child decided for everyone,
for the younger brother, we're not allowed to watch it.
Since a younger brother was happy go lucking went along
with it, but they just sat in the library and
the school was fine with it, and they were fine
with it, and I was actually really proud of them
(32:52):
for that. Had they come home and said they watched Coco,
I wouldn't have freaked out. But I think it's bottom line.
Another takeaway is for people who are concerned about these things,
for your children, it's better to teach them to be
discerning for themselves than to dictate what does and doesn't
go into them after a certain age, right when they're
(33:16):
still that feedling to do it both.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
You know, you can do both, and I mean I
think of it kind of like sex education, Like there
are certain things that you can say at an age
appropriate level, yes, and then as time goes on, you
can add to what you're revealing to them, and to
the point of, you know, when my daughter it kind
of surprised me that my daughter's like, oh, you think
(33:42):
everything's demonic because I don't run back. Sometimes I think
that a lot of people would be like, you're way
not cautious enough, you know, right, But I see what
she's saying, and I loved that invitation to like have
the conversation and not just be like oh no, don't
get any of those bracelets. It's right, How do we
(34:02):
decide whether to get one of those bracelets and whether
it's beneficial or not, and whether it's dangerous or not,
or whether it's somewhere in between.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, growing up with a lot of Christian superstition. So
by that, I mean like if if you watched a
Little Mermaid, then you might turn into a pagan, right,
Like that was sort of or if you read Harry Potter,
the three no Nos, Little Mermaid, Harry Potter, and Marilyn Manson,
(34:32):
so like the older you got, like the more like
those were kind of like the three biggest no nos
as I aged, And so people can like absolutely place
me probably to like the year right. But if you
grew up in that same kind of you know, just
kind of evangelical Christian, fairly conservative type of upbringing. But
(34:55):
the one thing that it did is it was very
fear based in a lot of ways. It wasn't let's
do this out of discernments. It was let's do this
because if you don't, the results are going to be terrifying.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Like yeah, to the.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Point where like if I was at a stop sign
and a car pulled up to me blaring like Metallica.
I might have been like, oh no, the devil's going
to jump into my car, like not quite to that extreme,
but like one degree below that. So I think that
there ideally is a way to protect yourself and your
(35:32):
own spirit and to protect your children and their spirits,
but to try to do it in a way that's
a little more gentle and gracious unless fear based. One
of the most beautiful experiences I had learning to handle
my own fear versus superstition versus wanting to spiritually protect
my children is we had a church homeschool co op
(35:57):
and when our kids were very young, so probably preschool
to you know, early early elementary, we went to the
Alaska Native Heritage Center and they did they did some beadwork,
so they did like some arts and crafts, and then
there was a man who was going to teach them
(36:17):
a song. And I got a little nervous because, like
my just because of my upbringing, it was sort of
like certain drum beats are going to invite certain things,
or this if this instrument is also used in pagan rituals,
it's spiritually dangerous. So I was a tiny bit on
edge I was ready to pull my kids out of
(36:38):
it if I needed to. But what I loved the
instructor was so gentle hearted, and I think I think
he might have just known his audience, or maybe this
was just the way he talked to every group who
came in. He said, So the first song they talked
about it was like a dance that taught you how
(36:59):
to build an igloo. So I'm like, okay, this is fine.
This is a step by step dance to teach an
important skill. Public service announcement. People never lived in Igloos.
I think a lot of Alaskans get insulted when people
assume that. But it's important to know how to build
one for shelter, and so they had a traditional dance
that kind of taught kids the steps to build an igloo.
(37:22):
So to me, there was no spiritual anything attached to that.
So I'm like, oh, okay, I'm feeling more comfortable with this.
Then he's like, and the next song I'm going to
teach you is a song. To I forget what it was,
it was probably the Sun. And so that's where old
me was like, okay, we're out of here, Like just no,
we don't sing to the sun. But then you think
(37:43):
about a mister son son, mister Golden said, please sign
down on me. Actually, we do sing to the sun,
and he brought up these kinds of things. He says,
now I'm going to teach you a song where we're
singing to the sun. We don't always like, it's not
that we're worshiping the sun. He didn't use the word
worship you kind of less religiously charged terminology than that.
(38:03):
But he's kind of like, think about Twinkle Twinkle. It's
just a nice song to sing that reminds you of
how nice a story is. Right, And if you think
about it, there are so many songs that sing, especially kids,
songs that sing to inanimate objects that even the most
conservative Christians do not even think about. And so either A,
(38:25):
we're just living on default and not being discerning, or
B maybe these are just songs that are sung. And
so he taught our kids a little song, and I
felt very fine and comfortable with it, and it was
all Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
I wonder if he was a Christian, and that was
why it's very possible just to kind of make sure
like that's kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, No, I really appreciated that perspective, because I had
never thought about that before, and I think there is
a little bit of like any culture that we think
of is more animistic. We make certain assumptions that it's
you know, Oh, and so when they do this thing,
you know, kind of like you know, let's go back
to ancient Greeks, like, yes, there were priests to some
(39:09):
of the Greek gods. I'm sure there were also people
who treated them like we treat the DC characters. They're
just like people, you know, they're tall tales. And Yeah, anyway,
we've talked about all kinds of interesting things and given
some good takeaways. I guess we can go ahead and
close in some prayer if that sounds good to you.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Sure not prayer to the sun, by the way, I.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Will pray prayer to the sun. Oh there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I like what you did there. Okay, let's pray. God.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
We just thank you for being a god of truth,
being a god of light and goodness, and we just
pray against any forces of darkness, any forces of lies
and deception that might be setting themselves up against the
knowledge of You and your son Jesus. We pray just
(39:59):
as individuals and for those of us who are parents.
We pray as parents and just as Christians in general, Lord,
that you would help us to have deep discernment and
wisdom to make good choices for ourselves and for the
ones we love. We pray that you would help us
to also have grace and just great love for other people,
(40:23):
especially those who don't make the same choices as we do.
That we would not be judgmental, that we would be
open handed and realize that you speak to and require
different things of all different people, and what's good for
one is sometimes good for another and sometimes not. And
we just pray that you would bless our families, that
(40:46):
you would bless our homes, and just protect us from
evil and help us to set up appropriate boundaries to
protect us and the people we love from evil as well.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
In Jesus' name, Amen, we'd.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Like to take just a quick second to thank the
team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you
will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
They've got shows about.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Prayer, Bible study, parenting, and so much more. That's lifeaudio
dot Com.
Life Audio. Hello, welcome to Praying Christian Women. I am
Alanic here with Jamie. How are you.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
I'm doing great?
Speaker 1 (00:12):
How about you good? Are you ready to talk about witches? Oh?
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Yeah, definitely. And it's not even October, so it's like October,
you know what, June right.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
So here's a question. I know off air, we were
just talking about, like do we have a just for
fun question and we don't really need one. Did you
guys do Halloween growing up and with your own kids?
And if so, what was that like?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Yeah, it was kind of so I grew up doing
Halloween and didn't even think twice about it.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So I went to a church that like, so this.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Is in the early eighties when I was a young
kid doing you know, dressing up like I think my
first Halloween costume was like a witch with the mask,
the green mask and you know, the one from Wizard
of Oz or something, and I didn't think anything of
it didn't even occur to me. I even remember at
our church, like we had a Halloween. It wasn't a
harvest festival. It wasn't like any of the alternative things.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, one of the one of the ladies.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Was dressed up like a witch with a you know,
pointy black hat with like a cauldron like it. It
wasn't a thing or a discussion at that time, and
it wasn't until much later that I started really understanding
kind of there are some concerns and roots. And our
kids did dress up. We never let them dress up
(01:36):
like anything a cult or.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Like scary, but it was.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
But we did let our kids go around the neighborhood,
and you know, we would do sometimes kind of try
to use it as an opportunity to reach out to
the community. And we had like you know, like the
cross shaped jack O'Lantern or whatever. I don't know, So
I don't know. I think I'm sure people would look
at that and say that it was wrong. I know
(02:06):
people have strong opinions on it. We did not take
a hardline stance on it, other than explaining that, you know,
we're looking at this as like getting to know our
neighbors a little bit better, maybe outreaching a little but yeah,
what about you guys.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, we did not do a lot with Halloween. We
were allowed to dress up for school, but it was
really really clear this was just our family rule, like
nothing scary.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So we know we're growing up or your kids. When
I was growing up, Okay, I remember being tinker Bell.
I remember, you know, things like that Cinderella fish one year,
which is hilarious looking back.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Oh yeah, really, but you know nothing, which is we're
probably the very worst. But even I don't think we
even did a time with like jack lanterns and stuff.
But our church did have a carnival party harvest festival
with candy and all the typical things. We just didn't
(03:12):
call it a Halloween party. But I don't know. I
think that when we were raising our kids, we made
it really clear, like this is how our family does it.
This is one area where our family was actually stricter
than my family growing up. I grew up pretty strict
in terms of just anything that might be seen as
(03:32):
a religious no no. And we didn't do Halloween at all.
We would let our kids go to a costume party,
but they didn't trick or treat up until like by
the time they were eleven or something, and their friends
were going and it was just to get candy. But
I remember, even as a mom, being scared walking through
(03:54):
Walmart at Halloween time and hating that they had the
goblins and the witches and I was like, Oh, my
kids are going to see this and be scared, or
be wood to evil, or just have images in their
mind that I didn't want them to have. And I
don't know, I love that we're talking about witchcraft specifically,
(04:17):
because the thing with the black pointy hat, like that
was such a taboo, Like that was one of the biggest,
Like it would almost be less offensive in certain circles
I was part of to walk up to a house
decorated for Halloween with like beheaded zombies than with a
(04:38):
woman in a black row with a black pointy hat
and a cauldron. Yeah, And so it makes me wonder
how much of that is just superstition. It makes me
wonder a little bit of what we talked about last time,
how much of that is a way that old school
religious establishments tried to exert their authority. So basically, if
(05:02):
you don't believe in our dogma, even if it wasn't
biblically sound or theologically sound, and you happen to be
a woman, then we have an easy out of calling
you a witch and silencing me. But however, there's obvious
reasons to not get sucked into that, you know, and
to have a lot of spiritual care and discernment, and
(05:24):
so I'm really excited we get to chat about it.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, me too, Me too. I think there's a lot
of I don't know.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I like to take things and try to strip away
a lot of the what ifs, talk about the what ifs,
but strip them away and boil it down to Okay,
what is the truth here? What's an easy litmus test?
And so I feel like we're going to get through
all of that today and have a lot of great discussion.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
I think. So Scott and I were young youth pastors
when the first and Arnia movie came out, and we
were really excited because this was before people made like
a lot of specifically Christian movies, and so this was
a really big deal. And we were planning a huge
(06:10):
like pree movie party and post watching devotion time and
someone from church came up to us. Actually it was
someone who was not much older than we were, and
I think even approached me and not my husband, and
he was like, so tell me again why you're taking
(06:33):
the youth group and kids in our church to a
movie where the bad guy's a witch? You know, just
kind of in that exact ton of voice, and I
didn't know how to answer. So if someone asked you
that today, would you have kind of a ready response.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I think I would say that it was written by
someone who's, you know, kind of a longtime renowned Christian
author and thinker. That it is kind of like saying,
why read a book that contains demons in it? Like
(07:11):
I eve the Bible that you know, the witch is
symbolizing evil and symbolizing it's not like you know, and
I'm not gonna say like, I'm going to just be
totally out there and.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
This might offend people.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
My kids have read and seen Harry Potter, which I
know a lot of people don't like, and I can
see why. But it's not like Harry Potter where the
hero is a wizard. It is like, this is a
movie that is allegorical, that points to Christ, that has
lots of good discussion, and the bad guy is a
(07:46):
witch because the bad guy is evil.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You know, I don't know that's kind of that.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
It is you can't just avoid evil, and so to
see a movie where evil is portrayed as a witch
is allegorical and whatever.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
That's how I would explain it is that we were
seeking to teach truth and C. S. Lewis was a
truth teller in the storytelling way, and it all points
back to the Gospel.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I think that's really well said. I think if you
want to get kind of snarky about it, literally, anything
that parents would try to get a book banned from
a school library for it's going to show up somewhere
in the Bible. Do you know what I mean? Like,
think of any reason why a parent would stand up
and say this book can't be in here, and at
(08:40):
the very least that subject is discussed in the Bible. Yeah,
So I don't think that we can throw something out
just because it talks about demonic influences, or just because
it talks about sex, or just because it talks about violence.
These are all things that are in the Bible. We
don't have to glorify them, don't have to be grotesque.
(09:02):
But even then, like Paul had a little bit of
a grotesque mouth, you know, like some of his insults
were were not rated g And Yeah, it's an interesting
kind of thing. It's sort of like in the same
way that we think of not we, you and me.
But there's a segment that assumes that Shakespeare is like
(09:27):
very hoity toity and it was so refined and respectable,
and like people didn't allow their wives to go to
the theater because Shakespeare was seen as so raunchy, you know.
But so I think some of it just has to
do with the lens you're looking through.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
It it is, and I think it's important to dissect
things like that person might have been. You know, I
could I could totally see why someone would be like,
you know, this idea of a witch is too scary.
I don't want to plant those ideas in my kid's head.
That's fine, But in terms of just like if it
has this in it, then it's automatically bad or that
(10:10):
it's not valuable for discussion, and you know, I think
I think those things need to be looked at and
not just shunned for the sake of shunning. On the
other hand, I can see where there are things like
Harry Potter, for instance. I have allowed my kids to
watch it and read it, and we've had discussions about it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
The more I learn about it.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I can totally see I may not have been discerning enough,
and at this point it's kind of too late. But
you know, there I've heard people talk about how there
are actual, you know, like spells being glorified.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I just I really feel like like there's there's a
place for discussion, and there's a place for caution, absolutely,
and if you're going to air err on the side
of caution, but if you know, if there are things
that you've already labeled as good or bad, maybe at
least give it the opportunity of discussion and dissection about
(11:14):
why do I consider this bad and why.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Do I slack this label on this thing?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Right? Yeah, yeah, I like that. And I think, especially
with it from a parent lens, I think the younger
(11:39):
your kids are, the more it does make sense to
be zealously protective. I think about you know, it's springtime here,
it's seedling time. You treat a seedling way differently than
you treat the full grown plant.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, you know, the full.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Grown plant, you don't want to over caudle. You want
to expose it to some wind and you know, to
let it dry out some and you know, to go
through some stress to make it strong. When it's a seedling,
you want to give it as picture perfect conditions as
(12:18):
you can until it gets strong. Enough to be rooted
in itself. I think that's a good analogy. Yeah, with
Harry Potter, I think there's another sense of when you
look at it through your lens. So we've talked a
lot before about how my dad will abstain from anything
(12:39):
on our Japanese side of the family that might be
like Shinto based or things like that. And as of now,
this is more like his grandparents, sir, aunts, and uncle's generation.
Like right now, I don't know that there's even anybody
left who's got many remnants of that. But as an example,
my brother and I were some of the only cousins
(13:01):
who didn't participate in like a Japanese cultural school that
they offered every summer because my dad didn't want us
to be singing a song that might be worshiping a
false god or you know, things like that, which I
totally get, especially when you think about your kids being
young and needing that kind of protection. So for me,
(13:24):
because I didn't grow up the same way my dad did,
it wouldn't bother me to the extent that it would him.
I would still be cautious about certain things. But you know,
like your daughter has had more Japanese cultural training than
my kids. That's right. She got to go to the
Japanese Emmergion program at her elementary school for a few years.
(13:47):
I would have loved to at least have looked into
that for them, and I would have looked into it
before I would have enrolled them to you know, to
give it kind of the gut and the spirit check
to say, because my dad had the beliefs that he did,
it would have been wrong for him and it was
(14:07):
wise for him to abstain. As a young adult, I
grew up, you know, pretty conservative Christian kid in the nineties,
like Harry Potter.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Was a big no no, you know, like it was.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
It was not quite to this level, but we were
just one degree above like the youth groups who would
like burn Harry Potter books to make a statement or right, yeah,
you know. And then my husband is a huge fantasy fan,
and he was like, it's just a book. And so
(14:43):
even before we had decided whether our kids were going
to read or whatnot, our kids weren't even you know,
a reading age. I don't think I started to watch
the first movie, and by that point I had I
started a movie with an open mind. I truly do
believe that I did. And then it got to the
scene where like there's floating pumpkins and all of this stuff,
(15:05):
And it was very funny because logically I could tell
myself that this is a kid's movie, and there are like,
there is nothing that is going to come out of
this screen and possess my soul. If I watched floating
pumpkins or whatever. I don't remember that scene, but I
remember it made me feel uneasy, and so I had
(15:29):
a very logical discussion with myself and decided to turn
it off. So it wasn't quite the like ooh, my
gut clenched and so I can't do this and anybody
who watches it as horrible. It was more like, this
is interesting. Even though I thought that I could go
into this knowing that it was just a movie, and
even though I do not personally believe that every Christian
(15:51):
family should abstain from Harry Potter, I knew that because
I still had all those remnants of this is so evil,
this is so spiritually dangerous, that it wasn't a wise
choice for me to watch. You know, have you ever
heard of a no cibo? No, it's the opposite of
a placebo, where basically, if you're told that something is
(16:14):
going to be detrimental to you, it can happen. The
saddest example, I don't. I think there are a lot
of studies on placbo, like early studies I think were
very very unethical, but because you know, in order for
it to be a true placebo, the patient can't know, right.
So what they did they did this kids, which I
(16:35):
think is the worst. So they took kids who had
previously had allergic reactions to poison ivy. They blindfolded them,
they put a like they brushed their forearm with the leaf,
and they said, this is poison ivy and it wasn't.
And I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, but it
was something like fourteen out of fifteen of them developed
(16:57):
the same rash they would have if it had been poise.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Wow. So there truly is this idea of if you
believe something is going to be damaging to you, your
your body is going to kind of be like okay.
And so I think that's what was happening with me
for Harry Potter, and the fact that I had that
reaction does not mean that it's inherently evil or wicked.
It just means that it was not spiritually something that
(17:25):
felt good to me, so I stopped doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
No, I think that's very important and to listen to
your internal responses and you know, kind of look at
it that way. I mean, I originally went into it
very much like, eh, it's a pretend story. It's an
allegory of good and evil. Our kids we had conversations
(17:49):
about that some of the parallels between you know, even
biblically the good and evil and the spiritual battle. But
I'm kind of on the other side where I started
off kind of like not having any problem with it,
and I've the more I've learned, the more I'm like,
you know, evil can hide in all sorts of places.
(18:10):
And while I don't believe the author intentionally meant to
like sew you know, breadcrumbs of the occult in those books,
they're open doors, and so I do question my judgment
in retrospect. But I'm pretty much kind of like you
where it's like, you know what at this point, like
(18:32):
just do the best that you can with the knowledge
that you have be cautious. So I went into it
with my kids just kind of looking at it as
this is fantasy, this is even maybe allegorical of good
versus evil. We had conversations, some of them we even
related back to like, you know, good and evil in
the spiritual battle in biblical terms. But the more I
(18:55):
learned about it, the more I realized that evil can
hide in you know, it can insert itself into open doors.
And the more I learn about it, I don't believe
that JK. Rowling intended to necessarily so like evil into
these books. I think she just had a really cool
idea for a fun fantasy series for kids.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
But I don't doubt that there are possibilities that maybe
there's evil hiding in there. So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
I think, as always, you and I fall kind of
in the middle of all of it, saying don't be
overly reactionary. On the other hand, be really cautious, and
don't assume that just because something doesn't look bad on
the surface that there may or may not be bad
things in it, and especially when it comes to what
we allow our kids to be exposed to.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
So I don't know.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
I'm not going to take a stand one way or
another other than go to the Holy Spirit, ask God,
for wisdom, because in this particular case, I don't think
I ever really went to God and was like, Hey,
should I allow my kids to read this? I was
just like, it's fine. So if I could go back,
I would probably be more discerning and ask more quietquestions
of God, and you know, be a little bit more protective.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I think the two biggest takeaways I would give to
listeners when it comes to questions of should I let
my kids do this? Or is this something I should
participate in? For example, I was asked when I was
a pastor's wife in a small community, there was a
group that wanted to create basically like an ecumenical devotion
(20:27):
time where people.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Oh I remember this, this was a big deal.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
It turned into a really big deal and became super controversial.
And so these aren't just questions that parents have to
ask about their kids. And I think the two biggest
takeaways is be a thousand times more deliberate and discerning
(20:51):
than the default setting. So what you described with Harry
Potter is kind of like the default setting. It was
just sort of like, Okay, you know, be super deliberate,
super discerning, but also be like a thousand times less
judgmental of everybody else who has come to a different decision,
(21:11):
even if their decision is based off a default. So
if you're faced with a question, So for example, maybe
I'll use an example for like adults, so we're not
just talking about parents here. I've had storylines in my
head for like a novel that centers around a house
(21:32):
that everybody is convinced is possessed and you know, or
has like demonic influences in the house. To me, for
a Christian thriller, that sounds exciting, it sounds like a challenge.
It sounds a little bit scary, which I know is
always a good thing creatively when you get that tiny
bit of ooh, this is a little like I'm skirting
(21:53):
the line. So let's say I'm trying to decide if
I want to toe that line. The mistakes to make
would be to say, yeah, this sounds fun, I guess
I'll do it right, and to just kind of go
by default, and to not have any type of prayer
or any type of just deliberate owning my decision right,
(22:17):
like what I would do in this scenario. I hope
I'm not talking myself into writing this book, because IVE
got another book I want to write. First, if I
was in this scenario, basically, I would think about all
of the Christian readers who might be offended and come
back to me kind of like that man at church,
why are you taking kids to a movie with a witch?
(22:38):
And I would want to know, like before God, that
my conscience was clear, that I thought through every single
argument that they would throw at me. I thought through
arguments that they wouldn't have even thought to throw at me,
and not that like I had a defense for all
of it. But basically is like, you know what, I
asked myself that question before I wrote it too, and
(23:01):
I told myself my conscience and my Savior that I
would not write this book until that question was resolved
in my spirit. And that question got resolved in my spirit.
So being extremely deliberate about it is one step. And
then the other step is to let go of any
judgment against people who hold different opinions. Right, it would
(23:24):
be like, and if you're a Christian author who would
never touch this subject, I love you and that's great,
and I don't want you to touch this subject. And
if you're a reader and if you know, just in
the same way, like I've got a book about a nickubaby. Honestly,
I would never as a reader pick up a book
about a nickubaby, you know, and a writer wouldn't shouldn't
look down their nose at me, like what I wrote,
(23:46):
this beautiful book about a nickubaby. I would just be like,
this is not entertainment for me. And so if if
it was a reader who was like the line, I
love all your books, I'm passing on this one, you know,
and especially if it wasn't means, I would be like, yes,
that is the very best decision for you. And one
of those questions I would wrestle with in my spirit
(24:07):
is by writing this book, they would have the same
reaction that I had with Harry Potter and therefore shouldn't
pick it up. So I would need to wrestle with
by writing this book, am I causing others to stumble?
That would be another question that I would need to
be so resolved in. So A make your decision deliberate
(24:28):
and discerning, and B recognize it. A thousand people are
going to be faced with the same question and come
to nine hundred and ninety nine different reactions.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
Yeah, I think those are such good points I love
that you mentioned both weighing your decisions fully then not
pointing fingers at others whose decision might be different and
probably is.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, did your kids ever face like their own spiritual dilemma?
Like for you and me in our generation, it was
the slumber party and they pull out the Wigi board.
You know, have your kids had any issues like that
that they've had to make decisions in the moment on
their own.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Not that I know of at this point.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
We've had talks about that as they have, you know,
as they got into the ages of sleepovers, we had
the talks about screens, what they're exposed to, what to
look away from if someone else has something, and we did.
I remember our daughter saying something about something they did
at a slumber party. It wasn't light as a feather,
(25:50):
stiff as a board, but it was one of those things.
It wasn't a Wigi board for sure, but there was
something that they did and it was recently and we
had to talk about it. And so it was funny
because she was looking at bracelets online, at these different
like crystal type bracelets, like you know, it would say
amethyst and I'm gonna get it wrong, but it wasn't
(26:13):
real amethyst, but it's like purple chen Z bracelets, but
it's like amethysts brings healing and positivity, and you know
cerealine is you.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Know, protection from evil or whatever. And she said, so I.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Know that that you think everything is demonic, but something
like that, I know that you think pretty much everything
is demonic, Like take a look at this, would it
be demonic or against God? Like for me to look
at getting these. So we had a whole conversation about
(26:48):
God creating minerals and rocks and how you know anyway,
and kind of the litmus tests. So maybe that's her
her crisis cathartic moment whatever is talking through some of these.
Like I said, you know, basically like what you're looking
at as like a fortune cookie. It's like someone coming
up with you know, and it's probably plastic or resin.
(27:11):
It's not even the stone. But then talking about how
with crystals with different kinds of things, like God created
all of them and maybe they have different properties, different
you know, frequencies they vibrate at or whatever, but there
are forces that probably and people who probably use them
(27:33):
for could use them for bad things. And so you know,
just talking about I guess to wrap things up, where
your heart is and what your focus is on. Is
your focus on glorifying God? Is your focus on acknowledging
that God is the source of power? Or is your
focus on looking to other things for power, such as
(27:57):
witchcraft or such as these alleged healing stones or healing
bracelets or whatever.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Yeah, I think one more things specifically to parents, is
it's better to teach your children to be thinking for
themselves than to just dictate those choices. So again we're
going back to the seedling. When they're young and impressionable,
you do everything in your power to protect them, even
(28:25):
if that means you don't go to Walmart in October
because there are scary images. Right to me, it's not
super over the top. I didn't like doing it. But
then as they get older, I came across as pretty
young because our kids were voracious and early readers, and
(28:45):
so like by mid elementary school, they could read things
that were written for like young adult audiences, you know,
like they had the reading capacity right to read Harry
Potter when they were like five and six. And so
I remember asking an online friend of mine, just her opinion,
(29:08):
because I'm like, I know you love to read. I
know that you shelter your children a lot. How do
you handle both? And she said the very best thing
my mom did for me was to allow me to
read a lot of books and to show me how
to protect myself. Because I think there was a time
(29:29):
where I had in mind that any book my kids
would read, I would read first, and then we'd have
like discussions about it and they'd all be you know,
I would be the gatekeeper. Well, that's fine if they're
reading Frog and Toad, right, But it's not okay when
they're you know, reading three hours a day in a
genre that I really don't care for anyway, and.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
They want to have to get a cliffs notes for
all of them.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yes, And this was even before like there were easily
google able like parent guide for this book and things
like that. And so what we taught our kids was,
these are the things that we want you to look
out for in these books. And we saw them make
some very admirable choices, kind of self censoring choices that
(30:17):
I loved and appreciated. Our oldest got way into Percy Jackson.
All of our kids like Percy Jackson. And it like
it does for so many kids. It got our oldest
really interested in Greek mythology, and so we had lots
of books about Greek mythology and on one of them
was so cute. He took a sharpie. Have I told
(30:39):
you this story. The name of the book was the
Greek Gods, and he took a sharpie and he put
a little G on the cover to like basically to
remind himself, right, like, this is not it's not even
on the same level as God with the big g
And there's actually I don't know it and I don't
even know it well enough to pair phrase it. But
(31:01):
there's a beautiful quote in the first Percy Jackson book
that talks about like God and the Greek pantheon. Oh wow,
it's really yeah, I mean it's it's I appreciated that
the author put that in there, where basically it's telling
Percy and by extension all the readers like everything we're
(31:24):
talking about here has nothing to do with what you
believe in, like in your religious life, you know. So
I liked that. And then my kids had a really
cute story when they were in elementary school, they did
homeschool in the morning, and then for a couple of
years they did the elementary school for the afternoon and
(31:45):
it was the last day of school, so they went
all day because it was you know, like the big
end of school party. So they came home like, oh,
what'd you guys do and said, well, the class watched
Coco and it was a new you know, it had
recently come out by then, and I was like, oh,
how was it? You know, I wasn't thinking. I was
just like, oh, new Pixar movie. And they were like, well,
we didn't watch it. We told our teacher that we
(32:08):
weren't allowed to. And basically, for people who don't know,
Coco is about the Mexican Day of the Dead, and
a lot of it has to do with like the
Mexican view of the afterlife, and so their language was,
my parents won't allow us to watch this. But I
didn't even know enough about the movie to have an
opinion one way or the other or to communicate that
(32:31):
to them. But basically they came to basically, well, how
it really went was child, the older child decided for everyone,
for the younger brother, we're not allowed to watch it.
Since a younger brother was happy go lucking went along
with it, but they just sat in the library and
the school was fine with it, and they were fine
with it, and I was actually really proud of them
(32:52):
for that. Had they come home and said they watched Coco,
I wouldn't have freaked out. But I think it's bottom line.
Another takeaway is for people who are concerned about these things,
for your children, it's better to teach them to be
discerning for themselves than to dictate what does and doesn't
go into them after a certain age, right when they're
(33:16):
still that feedling to do it both.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
You know, you can do both, and I mean I
think of it kind of like sex education, Like there
are certain things that you can say at an age
appropriate level, yes, and then as time goes on, you
can add to what you're revealing to them, and to
the point of, you know, when my daughter it kind
of surprised me that my daughter's like, oh, you think
(33:42):
everything's demonic because I don't run back. Sometimes I think
that a lot of people would be like, you're way
not cautious enough, you know, right, But I see what
she's saying, and I loved that invitation to like have
the conversation and not just be like oh no, don't
get any of those bracelets. It's right, How do we
(34:02):
decide whether to get one of those bracelets and whether
it's beneficial or not, and whether it's dangerous or not,
or whether it's somewhere in between.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, growing up with a lot of Christian superstition. So
by that, I mean like if if you watched a
Little Mermaid, then you might turn into a pagan, right,
Like that was sort of or if you read Harry Potter,
the three no Nos, Little Mermaid, Harry Potter, and Marilyn Manson,
(34:32):
so like the older you got, like the more like
those were kind of like the three biggest no nos
as I aged, And so people can like absolutely place
me probably to like the year right. But if you
grew up in that same kind of you know, just
kind of evangelical Christian, fairly conservative type of upbringing. But
(34:55):
the one thing that it did is it was very
fear based in a lot of ways. It wasn't let's
do this out of discernments. It was let's do this
because if you don't, the results are going to be terrifying.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Like yeah, to the.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Point where like if I was at a stop sign
and a car pulled up to me blaring like Metallica.
I might have been like, oh no, the devil's going
to jump into my car, like not quite to that extreme,
but like one degree below that. So I think that
there ideally is a way to protect yourself and your
(35:32):
own spirit and to protect your children and their spirits,
but to try to do it in a way that's
a little more gentle and gracious unless fear based. One
of the most beautiful experiences I had learning to handle
my own fear versus superstition versus wanting to spiritually protect
my children is we had a church homeschool co op
(35:57):
and when our kids were very young, so probably preschool
to you know, early early elementary, we went to the
Alaska Native Heritage Center and they did they did some beadwork,
so they did like some arts and crafts, and then
there was a man who was going to teach them
(36:17):
a song. And I got a little nervous because, like
my just because of my upbringing, it was sort of
like certain drum beats are going to invite certain things,
or this if this instrument is also used in pagan rituals,
it's spiritually dangerous. So I was a tiny bit on
edge I was ready to pull my kids out of
(36:38):
it if I needed to. But what I loved the
instructor was so gentle hearted, and I think I think
he might have just known his audience, or maybe this
was just the way he talked to every group who
came in. He said, So the first song they talked
about it was like a dance that taught you how
(36:59):
to build an igloo. So I'm like, okay, this is fine.
This is a step by step dance to teach an
important skill. Public service announcement. People never lived in Igloos.
I think a lot of Alaskans get insulted when people
assume that. But it's important to know how to build
one for shelter, and so they had a traditional dance
that kind of taught kids the steps to build an igloo.
(37:22):
So to me, there was no spiritual anything attached to that.
So I'm like, oh, okay, I'm feeling more comfortable with this.
Then he's like, and the next song I'm going to
teach you is a song. To I forget what it was,
it was probably the Sun. And so that's where old
me was like, okay, we're out of here, Like just no,
we don't sing to the sun. But then you think
(37:43):
about a mister son son, mister Golden said, please sign
down on me. Actually, we do sing to the sun,
and he brought up these kinds of things. He says,
now I'm going to teach you a song where we're
singing to the sun. We don't always like, it's not
that we're worshiping the sun. He didn't use the word
worship you kind of less religiously charged terminology than that.
(38:03):
But he's kind of like, think about Twinkle Twinkle. It's
just a nice song to sing that reminds you of
how nice a story is. Right, And if you think
about it, there are so many songs that sing, especially kids,
songs that sing to inanimate objects that even the most
conservative Christians do not even think about. And so either A,
(38:25):
we're just living on default and not being discerning, or
B maybe these are just songs that are sung. And
so he taught our kids a little song, and I
felt very fine and comfortable with it, and it was
all Okay.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
I wonder if he was a Christian, and that was
why it's very possible just to kind of make sure
like that's kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, No, I really appreciated that perspective, because I had
never thought about that before, and I think there is
a little bit of like any culture that we think
of is more animistic. We make certain assumptions that it's
you know, Oh, and so when they do this thing,
you know, kind of like you know, let's go back
to ancient Greeks, like, yes, there were priests to some
(39:09):
of the Greek gods. I'm sure there were also people
who treated them like we treat the DC characters. They're
just like people, you know, they're tall tales. And Yeah, anyway,
we've talked about all kinds of interesting things and given
some good takeaways. I guess we can go ahead and
close in some prayer if that sounds good to you.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
Sure not prayer to the sun, by the way, I.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Will pray prayer to the sun. Oh there you go.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I like what you did there. Okay, let's pray. God.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
We just thank you for being a god of truth,
being a god of light and goodness, and we just
pray against any forces of darkness, any forces of lies
and deception that might be setting themselves up against the
knowledge of You and your son Jesus. We pray just
(39:59):
as individuals and for those of us who are parents.
We pray as parents and just as Christians in general, Lord,
that you would help us to have deep discernment and
wisdom to make good choices for ourselves and for the
ones we love. We pray that you would help us
to also have grace and just great love for other people,
(40:23):
especially those who don't make the same choices as we do.
That we would not be judgmental, that we would be
open handed and realize that you speak to and require
different things of all different people, and what's good for
one is sometimes good for another and sometimes not. And
we just pray that you would bless our families, that
(40:46):
you would bless our homes, and just protect us from
evil and help us to set up appropriate boundaries to
protect us and the people we love from evil as well.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
In Jesus' name, Amen, we'd.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
Like to take just a quick second to thank the
team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you
will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
They've got shows about.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Prayer, Bible study, parenting, and so much more. That's lifeaudio
dot Com.
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