June 29, 2026 • 55 mins
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Church hurt is something almost no one survives decades in the church without experiencing.
In this special joint episode of Praying Christian Women and Christian True Crime Junkies, Alana and Jaime have an honest, unscripted conversation about church scandal, spiritual abuse, and how to heal your faith when a pastor's moral failure—or a church's cover-up—leaves you wounded, even when you were far removed from where it happened.
Together they unpack why a pastor's affair can trigger a faith crisis in people who left the church years ago, why victims of clergy abuse are so often shunned while fallen leaders get protected, and what Gayle Haggard's memoir Why I Stayed reveals about loving the families caught in the wreckage. They get honest about the spectrum between a consensual affair and predatory abuse, why narcissists are so often drawn to ministry and church leadership, and the pattern of institutional and denominational failures—and cover-ups—that keeps surfacing across churches of every stripe.
Alana also shares her hard-won take on spiritual "premonitions"—the God-given instinct that something is off—and why she believes those warnings are a call to pray, not proof you failed to act. Grounded in Ezekiel 34:2, the conversation lands on a grace-filled but clear-eyed question every church faces: how do we protect the flock from spiritual abuse while still extending real grace to imperfect people?
Whether you're walking through church hurt right now, rebuilding after spiritual abuse, quietly deconstructing, or simply want to guard your heart against cynicism and bitterness, we hope this episode helps you grieve honestly, stay connected to God, and hold grace and wisdom in the very same hand.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Life Audio, Hello and welcome. We are so glad you
joined us. I am Milana, I'm here with Jamie. How
are you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
This is a special joint episode. You know what would
be really silly is if we pretended that we were
joined by the co hosts of another really really cool
show and had like a four way conversation. But literally
it's just the two of us because technically we're the
co host of two different podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
It's true, yeah, so we basically would have a conversation
with each other click we do every week and ourselves.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So welcome. Whether you are listening to us in the
Praying Christian Women Feed or the Christian Truo Crime Juckie
s Feed, We're so glad you joined us. We're doing
a combined episode and a slightly different format from both
shows today. Full transparency. Some of that is because of
the script that I thought I had ready for Christian
(00:59):
True Crime Junkies disappeared, so I didn't have a case ready.
But we are in summer mode and lots of random
life things are popping up, and so we for sure
wanted to get this out there and figured it was
better to get something a little more unscripted out there
than wait until we had a perfect true crimes beginning
(01:22):
to end story to tell you about. And just so
you're aware, especially in the true Crime Junkies feed, we
are probably going to be going to a little more
sporadic just at least over June, so we might not
be quite every single week, but we will do our
best to stay as regular as we can.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, I'm going to say that if we had done
the thing that you said with misleading our listeners and
thinking there were like other hosts from other podcasts that
could be considered like kind of.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Scandalous, would be a little bit scandalous. It might even
be something that would get us canceled.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Not that those are you know, segues into our topic
or anything, but we.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Don't care about Sigmunds, especially in our unscripted shows. No,
we're going to be talking about church scandals, and we
will be presenting this a little bit more from the
Christian true crime junkie side. But the question is not
what's the most salacious church scandal we can tell you about?
It truly is more like what do you do when
(02:28):
you find yourself hurt because of a church scandal that
you were directly or indirectly or five times indirectly removed from,
which is why we're also going to put this up
on our Praying Christian womenfeed because my theory is that
you cannot be very involved in a church body for
(02:49):
decades of your adult life without getting hurt. And a
lot of us are not going to be untouched by
a church scandal of some kind.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, we talk a lot about in our prayer lives,
in our day to day lives about being prepared. So
like in your prayer life, you want to kind of
fortify yourself and prepare yourself with resources for the times
when you're spiritually fragile, you know, and with the crime
stories we talk about, we talk about being prepared ahead
of time, educating yourself. And I just feel like this
(03:23):
topic is something that if we can look at it
when we are not fragile, like when we're not in it.
For those of us that are fortunate not to be
in the midst of a scandal right now from you know,
a hurtful thing, I think it can prepare us to
respond in a godly way, in a biblical way, in
a healthy way when it does eventually happen or maybe
(03:46):
for those who have experienced it to help them maybe
process some of those things in a more healthy way,
to kind of try to get healthier and move forward
in their lives.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Exactly. People who are outside of the church looking in
probably cannot understand the degree to which a church scandal
ripples across everybody. So, you know, let's take the very
most obvious, at least non mega church celebrity pastor scandal,
and that would be a pastor is accused of adultery
(04:20):
and the church is thrown into chaos because of it,
and the pastor has to resign. Outside looking in, it's
easy to say, oh, that's really hard for the pastor's family.
That's going to be hard for the people in the
church who are therefore required to step in and fill
in the pulpit and decide how to find another pastor.
(04:43):
And if you don't dig deeper, it kind of ends there,
and you don't think about the impact it has on
his family, on everybody in the church, people who hadn't
been to that church in ten years. But imagine you're
a kind of wavering belief and you've been away from
church for ten years and you find out that the
(05:04):
pastor who led you to Christ, you know, fell into sin,
and that could absolutely lead to a crisis of faith
in certain people. And let's come right out and say it.
The church is not good about handling victims of abuse
or scandal. I have friends who I'm friends actually with
(05:28):
both the wife and the daughter, and the husband slash
father was a pastor who committed adultery and resigned from
his position or respired. I wasn't around at that point
in time, but the kids and the whole family were shunned.
It wasn't like, we are so sorry that your family
is going through this really really hard time. It was, oh, no,
(05:52):
you can't go play with little Sally not her real name,
because you know, we wouldn't want our precious little five
year old to catch adultery, you know, or to be
tainted by playing with you. So it has very huge
ripples that a lot of people don't think about. Or
maybe you're three times removed, right, So in this quasi
(06:15):
hypothetical case, maybe you're like now married to Sally and
you're watching all of this stuff that she went through
when she was a little girl, and you're wondering why
this is impacting your life now. So much, and you
might be thinking, Oh, I shouldn't be dealing with this.
(06:36):
I'm so far removed from this. So many people got
hurt more than I ever have. This is minor in
comparison to other people have gone through, and so you
either feel guilty for not forgiving and moving on, or
you feel like maybe you're being self absorbed by still
(06:58):
not being able to get over it, or maybe you're
like emotionally stunted because this is still an issue for you.
So I think it's a really important topic to discuss.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, I do think so, because, like you said, I
think people who have not been through a church scandal,
I kind of liken it to maybe someone who hasn't
been through a miscarriage. I don't think it's possible to
fully understand the impact it has until you've gone through it,
(07:28):
Like for me personally, Like I have not been through
a miscarriage, and I can understand in my brain like
how devastating that is and has to have been for
those who have been through it. But I fully am
aware that I can't allow, like I there's something that
doesn't allow me to process the depth of that pain
(07:52):
and internalize it because I know it's so painful. I
think it's similar with someone who hasn't been through the
church scandal thing. I think you can be outside of
it and just not quite process the extent to which
the betrayal goes. I just think of when my car
was you know, I left the doors unlocked and someone
rifled through my dad's car when I was a kid,
(08:14):
and how deeply violated I felt from that small thing,
and then thinking extrapolating like someone who's had their entire
home ransacked and you know, or been violated in other ways.
Like basically all what I'm saying is I think talking
about it is important because I think we need to
validate the ripple effects of church scandals and also like
(08:37):
educate people that don't quite understand, maybe and so that
they can prepare themselves ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, I think that the one way that people can
empathize even if they haven't gone through. And this is
just me speaking from my experience, but memoir really helps
me to like live it in someone's shoes more than
most other mediums deal. I think my favorite church scandal memoir,
(09:08):
which sounds like a phrase I never expected to say,
but when I definitely recommend it's called Why I Stayed,
And her name is Gail, and you would likely I
forget her last name, you would likely maybe you could
look it up all I'm telling you about it, you
would likely recognize the name of her and her husband.
But he was very high up in an evangelical Christian
(09:32):
association and was accused of lots of sexual immorality. And
her memoir, obviously called Why I Stayed is partially her
explanation for why, even though she had biblical grounds of
where she didn't. But even more so, it really opened
(09:53):
my eyes to how Christians treated her and her family
who were the very most in need of love and support.
Is it Gail Haggard? Yes? Yes? What's her husband's name,
Ted Haggard? Do you remember his story? Does that name
ring a bell to you? This would have been a
decade or two ago.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yes, And I so it's the New Life Church in
Colorado Springs. I'm trying to place him because the name
sounds familiar.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, you know, sadly scandals like this, specifically with sexual immorality,
and again sadly immorality that is even more outside the
realms of I committed adultery with a heterosexual consensual partner
(10:43):
are getting more and more common, and I think we
have multiple ways to look at this. I think the
worst way to look at it is all Christians are terrible.
You cannot trust anybody. People are sick and disgusting. So
we don't want to go all the way over there.
(11:03):
We absolutely you and I are never in any public
forum going to ever condone covering up sins against victims
for the sake of keeping up appearances or anything like that.
And sometimes the worst crime is the cover up, and
(11:24):
sometimes you get entire denominations complicit in that. And for
people who need to hear it, I am not talking
solely about the Catholic Church, although that's where I think
this first ripple of hearing about some of these scandals
came up. But there are many other Protestant denominations as
well that are accused in very heinous ways of having
(11:48):
widespread knowledge of not only pastors who have fallen into
the sexual sin of consensual adultery, but pastors who are
predators and should not be behind a pulpit and should
likely be in prison, and they are being shielded and
protected by their denomination.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And often promoted and lauded.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, is sick.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, like you said, the name the denomination, and there's
been scandal, and some of it has been extremely public,
some of it's been you know a little bit more
here and there. But the thing that I has kind
of opened my eyes was our conversation about adult clergy
sexual abuse, which makes me look at quote adultery from
(12:33):
the pulpit in a different way. And I truly do
believe that there are cases where there are you know,
pastors who have congregants that maybe there is.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Mutual consensual stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
That's simply you could probably categorize it as an affair.
But when you have that power gradient, it always it
just needs to be like looked at more closely. And
it just makes me wonder where the line is there.
And I know there are some people that would say
(13:11):
where there is a power gradient, it's always abuse, and
I don't know, Like I mean, I definitely believe it's
unwise always, But when you have like pastors getting married
to people that weren't their wives before, I don't know.
I just I wonder what the line is there. And
(13:31):
I know that's a different conversation. I would encourage our
listeners to go back to the Christian True Crime Junkies
episode on adult clergy sexual abuse, which I don't remember
the exact episode, but we do have a really good
conversation that when I hear some of these high profile
cases coming out and it's adultery or he stumbled, some
(13:52):
of these victims are coming out later and claiming that
they were actually you know, like abuse, ruins, abused, exploited
and then basically thrown away by the church and vilified
and made to look like temptresses or something that came
and caused this upstanding man of God to stumble and
(14:16):
tools of the devil, while these guys go and get
promoted and they're shunned and basically you know, turned away.
So I believe there's my personal belief is there's a spectrum.
You know, I think there's absolutely a spectrum of how
this happens behind the scenes. But I just really I
think that when the word affair comes up, I think
(14:38):
we need to look a little bit more carefully into
is this really just a case of a stumble or
is this a predator? Is this person grooming people and
praying on people?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, And just to add one more level of nuance,
sometimes a pastor will be prey to a seductress. Right,
there's a certain personality type that wants to exert power
by kind of sexually tempting the one person who's supposed
(15:25):
to be the least possible to tempt. So there's never
a clear one size fits all. I think it's going
to go from every extreme. It's going to go from
the extreme of two consenting adults who are still actively
engaged in a very sinful activity to a male pastor
(15:46):
in authority abusing that power and manipulating women to sleep
with him. And on the opposite side of that, or
maybe like the full circle side of that, is the
woman who sees the pastor as the mount everest of conquests.
And it's sort of like, well, if I can make
(16:06):
my pastor fall into sin, then you know I've got
all the power in the world and everything in between.
And then you know, let's also go ahead and say
there's absolutely criminal activity that would be outside of all
of those scenarios. I don't think we even need to
go into like debating whether or not those are appropriates
(16:29):
or not. Now. I love that you included a just
for fun question for this like very very heavy topic,
and it actually is like a pretty fun question. So
before we go any deeper, and just for our heads up,
so you can be thinking, I do want to know
if you've been touched by any type of scandal like this,
but before we dive into that are actual fun just
(16:51):
for fun question, is what Bible character would absolutely get
canceled today for their behavior? David, Yeah, he's a I mean,
there is no way around it. Okay, adultery is bad enough.
We have no idea how willing bath Sheba was. The
Bible is totally silent on that, so we can only guess,
(17:12):
but at the very best we can call it adultery
and then like murder line, cover up. And I am
just floored because he would be so vilified today, and
most of us listening would probably if we didn't know
it was King David would be like, well, yeah, rightly.
So like if I came to you and I said, like,
(17:34):
I listened to this beautiful worship song it's by this
really cool pastor he's got this like funky story, or
like he sucked with this woman that he saw out
bathing and then he ordered her husband to be killed
so he could marry her. And the song is so
beautiful listen to it. You would probably look at me
(17:55):
like what has happens to my friend? So yeah, handstand
know there is I mean, there's a lot of people
who would get canceled and milified, but nobody quicker than David.
And I think it makes the question would we be
wrong to be like, no, this man cannot preach and
write hymns for our churches today? Like do that a
(18:16):
wrong reaction?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, that's a really interesting I had never I had
always looked at Oh, yeah, David was imperfect. He did
these terrible, sinful things, and yet he was a man
after God's own heart. But we read his psalms and
we still allow him to guide us in biblical authority
when we have this thing New Testament, and you know, basically,
(18:42):
if your house isn't in order, if you're you know,
I don't know if it's you're currently living in center.
Maybe because he was repentant and put those ways behind him.
I don't know. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to
bring up. And speaking of New Testament, I think Paul
would be canceled.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Today.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Women are to be silent, women are toware coverings, no jewelry,
and men do whatever you want now, I mean, I
don't know. Yeah, there are some cultural nuances that he
said that that I think would cause him to be
canceled in our you know, modern church.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
It would be funny to go through you and I
did it once. We did a true crime episode on
the Stony of Stephen. But it would be fun to
retell some of these, like very well known Bible stories
in the style of a true crime episode, you.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Know, Yeah, and see if you could guess, yeah, see
if you could guess the the person.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, or even just be thinking about it in such
a different way to be like, oh, this actually is
weird to be singing songs by somebody who did all
of these terrible things. And I'm not gonna cancel David,
and I'm not going to can soil Hillsong or any
of these other denominations or movements that we're probably going
(20:05):
to talk about and maybe name my name, which I
just did, who have had stuff come up about them
that is problematic. You and I recorded it must have
been for praying Christian women. We recorded an episode on
what do you do with the music of somebody who
has fallen into scandal? Yeah? And I think you were
(20:25):
a tiny bit surprised that I was so lenient. I
was like, well, if you do start censoring every single
songwriter based on their personal life, that leaves you with nobody.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, And though that was such a good point because
You're like, I have strong feelings on this, so I
figured you're very much on the other side of it.
So that was a really good point. And I love
the perspective of David being you know, I mean, we
have for praying Christian women, we have prayer through the psalms, right,
and I've fallen in love with David's Psalms, and here
(20:57):
he is like about as sinful as it gets.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
But yes, so are you ready to wrap up our
just for frond segment? Are you ready for the dumbest
Bible nerd joke that I came up with all by
myself And I am so proud.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Of I'm really impressed. I've got to hear it.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I gotta hear it. Hey, what did the ear nose
and throat doctor say to the psalmist when he came
in a hoarse voice? What say law? Did it take
you a second? It did? I'm like, say what I say? Law?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I was pretty proud of myself. Anyways, pretty that is impressive.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You need to start. You've been telling jokes on our
We need to create like a true crime praying Christian
women like a lot of joke book, because you've you've
been telling some some like corny jokes, but that are funny.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
So you know what, there is nothing better than a
corny joke. I mean, there are lots things better than
a corny joke, but corny jokes are still pretty good.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I love corny jokes and puns.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
All right, So tell me, have you ever been touched
or what's the closest you've been touched by a church
scandal along the scope of what we're discussing. I would say.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Probably a member of a congregation I was part of.
After I left that congregation, there was a very disturbing
arrest of a prominent member of our congregation. And yeah,
that was shocking and I wasn't even part of the
(22:40):
church anymore. Yeah, and I just remember, like my world
was crushed, Like my worldview. I like, you know, grew
up around this person, and he was an amazing father.
He seemed like the perfect husband. Like I was envious
of their relationship growing up. I was like, Man, I
(23:02):
hope my marriage is like that, And so it just
made me realize the like I feel like I'm not.
I mean, in some ways I'm gullible, like jokes my
kids will tell me and stuff. But when it comes
to people, I feel like I can be discerning. I
am an optimist, but I also feel like I can
catch a something's off vibe. You know, at least I
(23:25):
gave myself that that knowledge. So while it didn't affect
my day to day because I had since gotten married
and moved on with life, it was shattering, like it
shattered my sense of reality for that to be possible.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
M hmm. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit
more about that for somebody who's looking in and I
totally get it, but pretend I have never gone to church,
and I'm like, well, you weren't even at this church.
This person never hurt you specifically or anybody hopefully that
you knew or cared too much about. That sounded kind
(24:05):
of bad, but you know what I'm saying. So why
would this shake your faith when it didn't directly impact
you and people that were the closest to you.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I think it is because for someone who isn't part
of a church, or who never has been your church
many times becomes like your extended family. You know, we
didn't just see them once a week. We saw these
people all the time. And church, I think is a
safe place. We go there because we expect that everyone,
(24:40):
even though we ourselves are inherently sinful and imperfect. I
think we go there and expect that the collective body
is out for everyone's good. And I think that that
safety and that like what you consider to be transparency,
because think of like a Sunday school class or you know,
(25:01):
when you're sharing conversation with people, it tends to be
on a deeper level than a water cooler. You're talking
about spiritual things. You're talking about your life, you're talking
about your you know, desire to be more like Jesus.
A lot of times you're vulnerable and you're sharing things,
and so I think it just gives this illusion that
everyone's guard is down. Everyone is you know who they
(25:25):
say they are, And the truth is none of us are.
We all have stuff we keep behind closed doors. But
when it becomes something that damaging, you're just like, how
could I how could that have been in plain sight?
How could I have not known or picked up on it.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, we had a scenario that was a little similar,
same type of crime, and it came out after we
had already moved. And I remember, so I'm curious if
you struggled. I remember feeling guilty. There was a sense
of I should have done some thing because in my
case there was an inkling. And I even told Scott
(26:06):
about the inkling. But you can't call the police because
of an inkling. And no, you really probably shouldn't even
go to the pastor unless it's a really really strong
you know, that's a big thing. It would have been
a huge accusation with no founding other than goosebumps, you know,
(26:27):
and that kind of stuff. And especially to women listening,
those goosebumps and those feelings are a gift from God
that your body gives you. I'm not going to go
so far as to say it's the Holy Spirit. I'm
just going to say God has given us the ability
to sense danger as a way to protect ourselves and
our children and our families and our communities. So do
(26:51):
not disregard and pooh pooh those feelings. However, I remember
I actually had two scenarios like this the other scenario,
it was like I knew that the sin was coming,
but it hadn't happened yet, so I was just kind
of like watching and waiting. And then when it did
happen and it made a pretty big splash and hurt
(27:12):
a lot of people, again, I felt guilty. It was like, well,
should I have done something? So what do you think
about that? Did you experience any feelings like that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I didn't, because I think because I was so far
removed from it, and when I was part of that congregation,
I was younger, and so I guess I didn't. Really
I didn't have I guess you could call it guilt.
It wasn't guilt as much as like a correct perception
(27:41):
of reality all things, I mean, in the same way,
only on a different level and obviously more much more different.
When you find out someone has been cheating on you,
Like I had a boyfriend that I found out was
cheating on me, and I had this perception of what
our relationship was. When I found that out, it was
(28:01):
like kind of your world cracks and shatters and you
have to, like, you know, the tectonic plates shift and
you have to sort of reassess everything you know and
it was that same type of thing. But I wouldn't
say there was guilt because yeah, because I didn't have
an inkling and I wasn't as an adult fully formed
in the way I would take ownership. Do you know
what I mean? Like, if it happened now, i'd question myself,
(28:24):
but yeah, back then I didn't so much.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, after finding out years after I'd been removed, I
would say for people who are struggling with that guilt,
I mean, it can come in multioys, it can come
in why didn't I see this coming? Kind of in
the same way that you started questioning yourself, like, well,
if I got hoodwinked by this guy, what else might
I be wrong about? Or you know more For me,
(28:50):
it was like, well should I have done something? Like
could I have stopped this? And what I came to
realize because I wrestled with it a lot, and I
think where I settled is premonitions a lot of time,
especially if it's premonitions about other people. Right Like if
(29:10):
I had a premonition about my own child, that would
be so different, but premonitions about other people. I think
my default has turned into I have received this premonition,
so that I can pray over this situation, and I
never assume that the premonition is there so that I
(29:30):
take some type of action beyond prayer, and then if
the prayer leads me to do something else, then I
do it. If not, the way I look at it,
it's almost like imagine the guilt you'd feel if you
had a bad feeling about someone going on a car trip,
you didn't say anything, and then they got in a
really bad accident, and so you're left wondering, like my
(29:53):
responsible for my loved one's death because I didn't say
that I had a bad feeling about this accident. And
where I have come to land is that that is
too much guilt for human shoulders, Like that's God territory.
That's like sovereign God territory. But where I would land
on that is you get the premonition, you pray, and
(30:15):
then if in prayer you're led to say something, God
will tell you that you're supposed to say something. If not,
So if I got a premonition, this is all hypothetical
that there was going to be like something wrong, Like
I'm nervous about my husband taking this road trip, and
so I go to pray and I don't get the
sense of you need to bring this up to your husband,
(30:35):
so I don't, and then something devastating happens on the road.
Where I go to is not I am responsible for
my husband's accident, because again I think that's too much
authority on a person and not on the Lord. But
where I go to is because I prayed it turned
out better than it would have otherwise, and so that's
(30:56):
how I handle the girl. I've got multiple story stories
of times where I wish I had prayed with somebody
or wondered if I was supposed to have shared a
premonition but didn't, And that's where I have settled on.
It's my premonition led me to pray, that prayer made
(31:16):
the outcome better than it would have been otherwise.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
No, I think that's a very safe and humble, like
right where you're supposed to be way to deal with it,
because if you're too willy nilly with dishing out premonitions
like you could do some damage and to put it
in God's hands to the point of like, well, I
(31:43):
remember a time completely unrelated to church scandal, but like
my mother in law was supposed to be watching our
kids while like our kid at the time it was
only one. It would have been the first time I
would have been away from our son when he was little,
and my husband and I were going to go off
with some friends to see if football came in Nebraska
or something, and the morning we were supposed to leave,
(32:08):
she was like crying, and I mean we had plane tickets, everything,
and she was crying and she was like, I just
I don't think you should go. She's like meeting me,
She's like, I think if you leave, I just have
a bad feeling about how this is going to go
with our son. Anyway, it was it was a long story,
(32:30):
but basically she and she's like, I have been praying
about this since two in the morning, fighting God on it.
Not wanting to say this to you because I know
you're good, you know, I don't know what else to say.
But she's like, I just I feel like this is
not like you're not supposed to go right now. And
I don't know what it was about in retrospect, but
(32:51):
what I know about my mother in law is that
she is an amazing woman of God. She would do
anything for us or her grandkids. And it was way
at a character for her not to stay there and
be with, you know, and watch him. So I have
to believe, and I believe firmly that there was something
(33:12):
and they go without you or yeah, my husband, Yeah,
Matt went without me with everybody. And I cried the
whole way to the airport and Bob, I was like,
I needed this so badly. You know, I hadn't been
away from him in you know, a year, however long
it was, and I was so looking forward to it.
But I trust and even then, as disappointed as I was,
(33:36):
I was never mad at her, and I was never
ever I didn't ever doubt that she heard from God,
because I know that she was praying all of those hours,
and so all of that to say, if you're praying
and you feel God just pushing and pushing and pushing
you to say something, that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Exactly, because here's another way to read it, you know,
knowing what I know of your mother in law, and
I don't think i've ever met her, like I think
everybody did exactly what they were supposed to do. I
could see another scenario where there's just a grandma who's
really nervous to be alone with the grand baby, right
and turns that into an anxiety spiral, and then her
(34:29):
brain just kind of warps that into God told me
that you shouldn't do this right, And so that's why
it's always you always have to check the source. You
always have to just take everything with that grain of salt.
Always go back to your own prayer closet with it. Never,
no matter how godly somebody is, if there's no other takeaway,
(34:51):
especially when we're talking about how easy it is for
church scandals and for church leaders to fall into horrifics
and never an individual at their word, no matter how
how close you are to them. You know, I mean
very very small exceptions. You know, you and your husband,
(35:13):
you and me, you and your mother in law, Like
somebody that you know is going to like jump in
front of that frame for you, and you trust their
spiritual instinct. Still pray about it, but you know it's
it's not the same as like sometimes like just keep
your guard up and never put it down. Like if
I'm just walking through Walmart and some person just comes
(35:34):
up to me and starts rambling that God's going to
do something terrible to my kid, I'm not giving that
person any spiritual attention like, if anything, I'm going to
be praying hard for protection against that person, do you
know what I mean? And I will also trust that
if God truly has a message for me, that He's
going to deliver it to me in a way that
I'm going to understand. Like that's why angels didn't come
(35:57):
and speak in foreign languages to you know, the Old
Testament prophets, or if they did, like somehow the prophets
knew exactly what they were saying. Like, so God's going
to talk to us in ways that we get And
for me, that's not going to be the weirdo who
comes up and wraps on my window at a red
light and scares me, you know exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
And yeah, I mean it's like anything any kind of advice,
any kind of word from the Lord or anything like that. Yeah,
it's need to use caution.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah. Well, and presumably nothing terrible happened to you, your
child or anybody who went to the football game. Correct.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
No, And to be a little bit more clear, it
was I believe the context of what she felt was
that it would be traumatic for him for.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Me to leave.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I can't remember how old he was, but you know,
she lived states away they had not had a whole
live interaction. Yeah, and so it had to do with
his response to me being away when we were so attached.
And yeah, again she is the kind of like she
(37:09):
was really looking forward to staying with him. So again
it went completely against what she would have chosen, which
gave her and me kind of that confidence of like, yeah,
that it doesn't add up. And since then they've watched
our kids tons of times and never had any bad feelings,
so I don't.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, it didn't have to be something hugely dramatic.
It could have been something as simple as like nothing
horrible would have happened at all. Like I love thinking
that God has every single multiverse opportunity in his brain.
I'm not saying that I believe that there's like an
infinite number of Jamie's who all made different decisions, but
(37:50):
I think we see it in Matthew, where Jesus says,
if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen what you see today,
they would have repented. So at the very least, Sara,
are certain scenarios where God knows the hypothetical what if
he knows what it would have happened? And what I
love to think is maybe had you gone, nothing terrible
would have happened that day, Nothing terrible would have happened
(38:11):
that year, maybe ten years from now. You're going to
need to trust a strange word from the Lord that
comes through your mother in law or comes from somebody else,
and because you've practiced doing that, you're going to make
the right decision in that moment, and you're going to
save your child's life. Right Like, we never fully know
(38:33):
all the details, but what I'm saying is I think
there's a certain personality, and I will go ahead in
public peek confess I might fall into this personality. I
had been your mother in law, there would have been
and I would have hated this aspect of myself. But
I'm guessing there would have been an anybody fraction that
almost wanted something bad to happen, like nobody to get hurt,
(38:56):
but just so that I could be like, oh it right,
you know, so that so that I could give myself
that pat on the head, and also so that I
could not feel like I was the crazy lady who
flaked out on my sun and his family. But we don't.
We're not given that benefit. I love that asen says,
(39:16):
you remember that quote in Narnia. Asthen says it in
a couple of the different books. I think he says
suddenly like we never get to know the the what ifs,
but he says it, I think in a more poetic way,
and so we don't know, but don't. What I'm saying is,
inasmuch as you can in that say you don't wish
for the bad thing to happen to prove yourself right.
It's way better for everything to go totally right and
(39:39):
for you to look a little bit like you overreacted.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, and in that case, who knows, developed antally there
might have needed you their attachment wise, that really had
to happen at that critical part of his development, and
we will never know, but.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
He might not be at west Point right now if
it hadn't been for that decision. Then I wish I
had gone yeah, right, yeah, Now, well back to scandals
and things. I would love to end with just I
think we've talked about the empathy that we can have
(40:16):
and showing how the ripples are farther reaching than you
would expect, and I would love to close with what
to do if you are in that ripple? Right, now,
or just takeaways that you can hold on to, like
a life raft that you can keep under your seat
in case you ever are in that ripple. So, I
(40:40):
guess imagine that you are involved in a scandal that
does hit a lot closer to home than anything you
or I have gone through before. What truths would you
hope that in the worst of those moments you would
have to hold on to?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
I guess the first one is just that no matter
what happens, God is in it, even when it doesn't
look like it, even when it looks like what you
thought God was has been shattered, because you might think, well,
of course God is going to protect. Of course God
is going to make sure that corruption stays out of
(41:18):
his you know, holy place. So I think definitely remembering
that God is all in all things. God is at
work for those who love Him and who are called
according to His purpose. To realize that it's okay to grieve,
and it's okay to be angry, and it's okay to
take a break if you need to that, you know,
(41:40):
I mean, I know sometimes there needs to be a
time of separating yourself out. And I'm a proponent of
meeting with the body of Christ. But if you need
to step back temporarily to heal, to regroup, to process,
to figure things out by all means. But at the
same time, I would say, please, don't disconnect and take
a break from God. You know, during that time, just
(42:05):
remember that God can handle your anger, he can handle
your frustration, He can handle you beating your fists against
his chest and asking why, and to do that in
his direction rather than running away and trying to process
it yourself, because that's not going to end well, you know,
it's just going to end with a lot of pain.
You're still going to have the pain you're just going
(42:26):
to have. You know, You're going to block yourself from
God's work to help you heal. And I think the
thing that I am not sure I'm qualified to answer
is the question of what do we do with Absolutely
we know what to do with the victims. We love them,
we strive for restoration and conversation, we believe them. But
(42:48):
what do we do with the person who was responsible
for the fall?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah? No, the Bible I think has a perfect prescription
of that. You take him out the city gates in
new Stonam. Yeah, right, that's all. That's literally all there
is a camp. No, of course, everybody knows I'm being facetious.
That is a very hard one because I think we
need to put church leaders who fall into scandal into camps.
(43:16):
I think we need to put some into the camp
of a believer who fell into sin and was remorseful
and a narcissist who joined church leadership because they like
being in that position of power, and they like being
(43:37):
surrounded by yes men and yes women, and no matter
what happens, if given the opportunity, they would do what
they did again and again and again. And really good
narcissists are not going to show their colors super easily
to let you know which camp they're in. So I
(43:59):
would say one of the wisest things is to and
obviously not many of us are going to be in
a position of like creating church by laws, but I
think it is very important for churches to have smart
safeguards in place for not giving one individual carte launch
(44:24):
authority and also not giving a board so much authority
that like, the pastor says one thing that two of
them don't like, and now that pastor's out on the curb,
having some kind of balance there, and so much is preventative.
(44:45):
It is praying not only for your like for your leader,
or for the person who might be who's fall into
sin would be the most likely or the most disasters
for your congregation, but for the advisors and surrounding that person,
because truly they should be the first line of defense.
(45:07):
But again it gets very hard because some people are
going to pool everybody. And I read a really disturbing
fact that I have since gone back and corroborated more
than once because I don't want to believe it's true.
But of like the top five jobs that a narcissist
is most like, a clinical classic narcissist is most drawn too.
(45:31):
Clergy is on that list because they are in a
position to control and manipulate. And like you said, a
lot of people take their guard down more in a
church than they would in a business room or something
like that. So prayer and grace, but so much diligence.
(45:54):
There are some people who I am going to go
on record standing shouldn't be reinstated. I don't care how
sorry you make me think that you are. At the moment.
What's hard is to put on a piece of paper
steps to know whether you are under the camp of
repentant sinner who should be not immediately reinstated in most cases, ever,
(46:17):
is my opinion, but on a path toward reconciliation to
your church and potentially to a position of leadership. And
again I think that's where an elder board would come in.
I don't think that any church should operate without a
shared leadership amongst multiple people, so that if the lead
(46:39):
pastor falls into sin and it's not so heinous that
they immediately just get fired and never come back, that
there will be steps to say, okay, for example, like
six months, you're welcome to attend and worship with us,
but you are not going to speak upfront after that time.
If you show us I mean basically like you might
do in an intervention, right after that point in time,
(47:01):
if you can show us that you have done this, this,
and this, then we will invite you to do the
opening prayer right and with the goal of continued reinstatements
to the point where it is wise. And some of
that wisdom is for the protection of the church. Some
of that wisdom is for the protection spiritually of the
(47:22):
repentant pastor or the repentant sinner, because if they get
thrust back into the spotlight too quickly without addressing what
led them into sin in the first place. They are
such rpe picking for it to happen again. So sadly
I don't have a check these three boxes, and then
this person gets kicked out and should never preach anymore
(47:45):
and check these three boxes, and this person should be
on a path toward reinstatement. But I would say, if
we're going to air, let's air on the side of
being more gracious in our hearts towards somebody, more protective
in our actions towards the church. If that makes sense,
(48:06):
extend the benefit of the doubt more to the person
who sins than you might feel they deserve, but be
even more cautious about protecting the safety of the members
of your congregation. Right, So, if that means airing on
(48:26):
the side of somebody getting their feelings hurt because they're
not reinstated as quickly as they want to, but it's
the best decision for the safety of the church, to me,
that still makes more sense. But I do believe that
there's a way to do that while still extending a
lot of grace in your heart. And that's where I
think a lot of Christians fail, it's got to be
one or the other.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I think you're absolutely right there. I love the way
you put that. I think that sums it up perfectly
because a pattern I see in several of these prominent
church scandals, and I'll just name them. There's Bethel was
one of the big ones that had like not just
instituttionetional issues, but there were like individuals associated with them
(49:05):
who were preying on people in a number of ways,
and they were just allowed to run rampant and reinstated.
And when they were called out for misbehavior and sin,
the people accusing them were being chastised for either causing
a man of God to stumble or on the other hand,
(49:26):
not be extending enough forgiveness and basically just allowing them
to continue to prosper. And I think, did I say
Bethel Endhell Song? And then there are the people within,
Like the Southern Baptist Convention has been elevated lately, you know,
in the last ten years or so, it's been exposed
that they've been covering things up, and the you know,
(49:46):
every denomination I think has been called out. And I
think this idea of let's just the good old boys
network let's just let's just pat him on the back
and let them keep going while ignoring or shunning or
qualifying victims. And then the other side that you have
is people who are just going to be casting stones
constantly and never giving anyone the opportunity or the option
(50:12):
to show repentance and to show that they, you know,
can still be used by God, you know, to use
their gifts to edify the church body. But what you said,
I think two things that are paramount. One, love God
with all your heart right and love your neighbor as yourself.
So if we do those two things, we are loving
(50:34):
the body of Christ enough not to allow them to
be put in any danger whatsoever. I'm going to read this.
I didn't get to our verse of the day, but
I'm going to read it because it's really relevant to
what you just said. This is Ezekiel thirty four to
two from the NIV, Son of Man prophesy against the
shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, this is
what the sovereign Lord says, woe to use shepherds of Israel,
(50:56):
who only take care of yourselves. Should not shepherds take
care of the So it's loving the body of Christ
enough to protect them and shield them from any hint
of possibility of being defiled or let astray or hurt.
But then on the other hand, that like love of
(51:16):
Jesus who ate with the tax collectors and the prostitutes
and did not condemn but just loved them and challenged
them to live righteous lives, so they can both exist
in the same place. It's not not loving someone or
not forgiving someone to set boundaries to protect the body
(51:39):
of Christ. And if we could learn to do those
both well, which is so hard in practice, Yeah, the
church would be a lot healthier.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah. I want to close with a picture of something
I saw as an outsider looking in. So I'm sure
it was not as simplistic as I'm going to make it.
But I was in a community where I went to
Church A, and I was aware that at Church B,
the pastor had had an affair and the church was
(52:09):
really reeling after the fact. And what I saw, again
being fairly removed. So this is going to be oversimplified,
but what I saw was a church who was heartbroken
for themselves, for their pastor, especially for his wife. I
(52:31):
saw her like when people would see her at the store.
They would go out of their way to give her
hugs and be like, how are you doing, how are
things going? We are praying for you. Now. Certain personalities
that might be worse, but I saw extensions of so
much love and appreciation, where so many of our defaults
would be to like, oh, I don't want to say
(52:52):
anything because this is so awkward. And I saw the
pastor being removed from the pulpit, but not from the church,
and that is, in my opinion, difficult, beautiful and gracious
for everybody involved. For the church and the elders to say,
(53:15):
we cannot have you preaching, but we don't want you
to leave, and for him to say, this has got
to be the most awkward, painful thing in the world.
But this is my family and my home. I saw
just that quick snapshot. I have no idea how it ended.
I have no idea all of the tears and drama
(53:36):
that you know went on behind all the closed doors.
But I thought that was a beautiful picture and a
beautiful testimony, especially for non believers to go and look at.
The church was not being naive. They weren't saying, oh, oh,
he's fine. He just made this one mistake but they
also weren't saying you're not welcome here, and your wife
(53:59):
is disgusting because she obviously did something wrong for her
husband to have had an affair. You know, I guess
our impromptu blessing to close is, may we all find
that degree of both grace and wisdom and discernments to
be protecting of the flocks that were part of and
also to be gracious towards those who are imperfect, which
(54:22):
is all of us, and to know how to be
so gracious and so protective at the same time while
guarding our hearts from cynicism and bitterness. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
We'd like to take just a quick second to thank
the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us
on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
and so much more. That's life audio dot Com on
Life Audio, Hello and welcome. We are so glad you
joined us. I am Milana, I'm here with Jamie. How
are you.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
This is a special joint episode. You know what would
be really silly is if we pretended that we were
joined by the co hosts of another really really cool
show and had like a four way conversation. But literally
it's just the two of us because technically we're the
co host of two different podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
It's true, yeah, so we basically would have a conversation
with each other click we do every week and ourselves.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So welcome. Whether you are listening to us in the
Praying Christian Women Feed or the Christian Truo Crime Juckie
s Feed, We're so glad you joined us. We're doing
a combined episode and a slightly different format from both
shows today. Full transparency. Some of that is because of
the script that I thought I had ready for Christian
(00:59):
True Crime Junkies disappeared, so I didn't have a case ready.
But we are in summer mode and lots of random
life things are popping up, and so we for sure
wanted to get this out there and figured it was
better to get something a little more unscripted out there
than wait until we had a perfect true crimes beginning
(01:22):
to end story to tell you about. And just so
you're aware, especially in the true Crime Junkies feed, we
are probably going to be going to a little more
sporadic just at least over June, so we might not
be quite every single week, but we will do our
best to stay as regular as we can.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, I'm going to say that if we had done
the thing that you said with misleading our listeners and
thinking there were like other hosts from other podcasts that
could be considered like kind of.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Scandalous, would be a little bit scandalous. It might even
be something that would get us canceled.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Not that those are you know, segues into our topic
or anything, but we.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Don't care about Sigmunds, especially in our unscripted shows. No,
we're going to be talking about church scandals, and we
will be presenting this a little bit more from the
Christian true crime junkie side. But the question is not
what's the most salacious church scandal we can tell you about?
It truly is more like what do you do when
(02:28):
you find yourself hurt because of a church scandal that
you were directly or indirectly or five times indirectly removed from,
which is why we're also going to put this up
on our Praying Christian womenfeed because my theory is that
you cannot be very involved in a church body for
(02:49):
decades of your adult life without getting hurt. And a
lot of us are not going to be untouched by
a church scandal of some kind.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yeah, we talk a lot about in our prayer lives,
in our day to day lives about being prepared. So
like in your prayer life, you want to kind of
fortify yourself and prepare yourself with resources for the times
when you're spiritually fragile, you know, and with the crime
stories we talk about, we talk about being prepared ahead
of time, educating yourself. And I just feel like this
(03:23):
topic is something that if we can look at it
when we are not fragile, like when we're not in it.
For those of us that are fortunate not to be
in the midst of a scandal right now from you know,
a hurtful thing, I think it can prepare us to
respond in a godly way, in a biblical way, in
a healthy way when it does eventually happen or maybe
(03:46):
for those who have experienced it to help them maybe
process some of those things in a more healthy way,
to kind of try to get healthier and move forward
in their lives.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Exactly. People who are outside of the church looking in
probably cannot understand the degree to which a church scandal
ripples across everybody. So, you know, let's take the very
most obvious, at least non mega church celebrity pastor scandal,
and that would be a pastor is accused of adultery
(04:20):
and the church is thrown into chaos because of it,
and the pastor has to resign. Outside looking in, it's
easy to say, oh, that's really hard for the pastor's family.
That's going to be hard for the people in the
church who are therefore required to step in and fill
in the pulpit and decide how to find another pastor.
(04:43):
And if you don't dig deeper, it kind of ends there,
and you don't think about the impact it has on
his family, on everybody in the church, people who hadn't
been to that church in ten years. But imagine you're
a kind of wavering belief and you've been away from
church for ten years and you find out that the
(05:04):
pastor who led you to Christ, you know, fell into sin,
and that could absolutely lead to a crisis of faith
in certain people. And let's come right out and say it.
The church is not good about handling victims of abuse
or scandal. I have friends who I'm friends actually with
(05:28):
both the wife and the daughter, and the husband slash
father was a pastor who committed adultery and resigned from
his position or respired. I wasn't around at that point
in time, but the kids and the whole family were shunned.
It wasn't like, we are so sorry that your family
is going through this really really hard time. It was, oh, no,
(05:52):
you can't go play with little Sally not her real name,
because you know, we wouldn't want our precious little five
year old to catch adultery, you know, or to be
tainted by playing with you. So it has very huge
ripples that a lot of people don't think about. Or
maybe you're three times removed, right, So in this quasi
(06:15):
hypothetical case, maybe you're like now married to Sally and
you're watching all of this stuff that she went through
when she was a little girl, and you're wondering why
this is impacting your life now. So much, and you
might be thinking, Oh, I shouldn't be dealing with this.
(06:36):
I'm so far removed from this. So many people got
hurt more than I ever have. This is minor in
comparison to other people have gone through, and so you
either feel guilty for not forgiving and moving on, or
you feel like maybe you're being self absorbed by still
(06:58):
not being able to get over it, or maybe you're
like emotionally stunted because this is still an issue for you.
So I think it's a really important topic to discuss.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, I do think so, because, like you said, I
think people who have not been through a church scandal,
I kind of liken it to maybe someone who hasn't
been through a miscarriage. I don't think it's possible to
fully understand the impact it has until you've gone through it,
(07:28):
Like for me personally, Like I have not been through
a miscarriage, and I can understand in my brain like
how devastating that is and has to have been for
those who have been through it. But I fully am
aware that I can't allow, like I there's something that
doesn't allow me to process the depth of that pain
(07:52):
and internalize it because I know it's so painful. I
think it's similar with someone who hasn't been through the
church scandal thing. I think you can be outside of
it and just not quite process the extent to which
the betrayal goes. I just think of when my car
was you know, I left the doors unlocked and someone
rifled through my dad's car when I was a kid,
(08:14):
and how deeply violated I felt from that small thing,
and then thinking extrapolating like someone who's had their entire
home ransacked and you know, or been violated in other ways.
Like basically all what I'm saying is I think talking
about it is important because I think we need to
validate the ripple effects of church scandals and also like
(08:37):
educate people that don't quite understand, maybe and so that
they can prepare themselves ahead of time.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, I think that the one way that people can
empathize even if they haven't gone through. And this is
just me speaking from my experience, but memoir really helps
me to like live it in someone's shoes more than
most other mediums deal. I think my favorite church scandal memoir,
(09:08):
which sounds like a phrase I never expected to say,
but when I definitely recommend it's called Why I Stayed,
And her name is Gail, and you would likely I
forget her last name, you would likely maybe you could
look it up all I'm telling you about it, you
would likely recognize the name of her and her husband.
But he was very high up in an evangelical Christian
(09:32):
association and was accused of lots of sexual immorality. And
her memoir, obviously called Why I Stayed is partially her
explanation for why, even though she had biblical grounds of
where she didn't. But even more so, it really opened
(09:53):
my eyes to how Christians treated her and her family
who were the very most in need of love and support.
Is it Gail Haggard? Yes? Yes? What's her husband's name,
Ted Haggard? Do you remember his story? Does that name
ring a bell to you? This would have been a
decade or two ago.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Yes, And I so it's the New Life Church in
Colorado Springs. I'm trying to place him because the name
sounds familiar.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, you know, sadly scandals like this, specifically with sexual immorality,
and again sadly immorality that is even more outside the
realms of I committed adultery with a heterosexual consensual partner
(10:43):
are getting more and more common, and I think we
have multiple ways to look at this. I think the
worst way to look at it is all Christians are terrible.
You cannot trust anybody. People are sick and disgusting. So
we don't want to go all the way over there.
(11:03):
We absolutely you and I are never in any public
forum going to ever condone covering up sins against victims
for the sake of keeping up appearances or anything like that.
And sometimes the worst crime is the cover up, and
(11:24):
sometimes you get entire denominations complicit in that. And for
people who need to hear it, I am not talking
solely about the Catholic Church, although that's where I think
this first ripple of hearing about some of these scandals
came up. But there are many other Protestant denominations as
well that are accused in very heinous ways of having
(11:48):
widespread knowledge of not only pastors who have fallen into
the sexual sin of consensual adultery, but pastors who are
predators and should not be behind a pulpit and should
likely be in prison, and they are being shielded and
protected by their denomination.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And often promoted and lauded.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, is sick.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, like you said, the name the denomination, and there's
been scandal, and some of it has been extremely public,
some of it's been you know a little bit more
here and there. But the thing that I has kind
of opened my eyes was our conversation about adult clergy
sexual abuse, which makes me look at quote adultery from
(12:33):
the pulpit in a different way. And I truly do
believe that there are cases where there are you know,
pastors who have congregants that maybe there is.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Mutual consensual stuff going on.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
That's simply you could probably categorize it as an affair.
But when you have that power gradient, it always it
just needs to be like looked at more closely. And
it just makes me wonder where the line is there.
And I know there are some people that would say
(13:11):
where there is a power gradient, it's always abuse, and
I don't know, Like I mean, I definitely believe it's
unwise always, But when you have like pastors getting married
to people that weren't their wives before, I don't know.
I just I wonder what the line is there. And
(13:31):
I know that's a different conversation. I would encourage our
listeners to go back to the Christian True Crime Junkies
episode on adult clergy sexual abuse, which I don't remember
the exact episode, but we do have a really good
conversation that when I hear some of these high profile
cases coming out and it's adultery or he stumbled, some
(13:52):
of these victims are coming out later and claiming that
they were actually you know, like abuse, ruins, abused, exploited
and then basically thrown away by the church and vilified
and made to look like temptresses or something that came
and caused this upstanding man of God to stumble and
(14:16):
tools of the devil, while these guys go and get
promoted and they're shunned and basically you know, turned away.
So I believe there's my personal belief is there's a spectrum.
You know, I think there's absolutely a spectrum of how
this happens behind the scenes. But I just really I
think that when the word affair comes up, I think
(14:38):
we need to look a little bit more carefully into
is this really just a case of a stumble or
is this a predator? Is this person grooming people and
praying on people?
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, And just to add one more level of nuance,
sometimes a pastor will be prey to a seductress. Right,
there's a certain personality type that wants to exert power
by kind of sexually tempting the one person who's supposed
(15:25):
to be the least possible to tempt. So there's never
a clear one size fits all. I think it's going
to go from every extreme. It's going to go from
the extreme of two consenting adults who are still actively
engaged in a very sinful activity to a male pastor
(15:46):
in authority abusing that power and manipulating women to sleep
with him. And on the opposite side of that, or
maybe like the full circle side of that, is the
woman who sees the pastor as the mount everest of conquests.
And it's sort of like, well, if I can make
(16:06):
my pastor fall into sin, then you know I've got
all the power in the world and everything in between.
And then you know, let's also go ahead and say
there's absolutely criminal activity that would be outside of all
of those scenarios. I don't think we even need to
go into like debating whether or not those are appropriates
(16:29):
or not. Now. I love that you included a just
for fun question for this like very very heavy topic,
and it actually is like a pretty fun question. So
before we go any deeper, and just for our heads up,
so you can be thinking, I do want to know
if you've been touched by any type of scandal like this,
but before we dive into that are actual fun just
(16:51):
for fun question, is what Bible character would absolutely get
canceled today for their behavior? David, Yeah, he's a I mean,
there is no way around it. Okay, adultery is bad enough.
We have no idea how willing bath Sheba was. The
Bible is totally silent on that, so we can only guess,
(17:12):
but at the very best we can call it adultery
and then like murder line, cover up. And I am
just floored because he would be so vilified today, and
most of us listening would probably if we didn't know
it was King David would be like, well, yeah, rightly.
So like if I came to you and I said, like,
(17:34):
I listened to this beautiful worship song it's by this
really cool pastor he's got this like funky story, or
like he sucked with this woman that he saw out
bathing and then he ordered her husband to be killed
so he could marry her. And the song is so
beautiful listen to it. You would probably look at me
(17:55):
like what has happens to my friend? So yeah, handstand
know there is I mean, there's a lot of people
who would get canceled and milified, but nobody quicker than David.
And I think it makes the question would we be
wrong to be like, no, this man cannot preach and
write hymns for our churches today? Like do that a
(18:16):
wrong reaction?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, that's a really interesting I had never I had
always looked at Oh, yeah, David was imperfect. He did
these terrible, sinful things, and yet he was a man
after God's own heart. But we read his psalms and
we still allow him to guide us in biblical authority
when we have this thing New Testament, and you know, basically,
(18:42):
if your house isn't in order, if you're you know,
I don't know if it's you're currently living in center.
Maybe because he was repentant and put those ways behind him.
I don't know. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to
bring up. And speaking of New Testament, I think Paul
would be canceled.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Today.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Women are to be silent, women are toware coverings, no jewelry,
and men do whatever you want now, I mean, I
don't know. Yeah, there are some cultural nuances that he
said that that I think would cause him to be
canceled in our you know, modern church.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
It would be funny to go through you and I
did it once. We did a true crime episode on
the Stony of Stephen. But it would be fun to
retell some of these, like very well known Bible stories
in the style of a true crime episode, you.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Know, Yeah, and see if you could guess, yeah, see
if you could guess the the person.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, or even just be thinking about it in such
a different way to be like, oh, this actually is
weird to be singing songs by somebody who did all
of these terrible things. And I'm not gonna cancel David,
and I'm not going to can soil Hillsong or any
of these other denominations or movements that we're probably going
(20:05):
to talk about and maybe name my name, which I
just did, who have had stuff come up about them
that is problematic. You and I recorded it must have
been for praying Christian women. We recorded an episode on
what do you do with the music of somebody who
has fallen into scandal? Yeah? And I think you were
(20:25):
a tiny bit surprised that I was so lenient. I
was like, well, if you do start censoring every single
songwriter based on their personal life, that leaves you with nobody.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, And though that was such a good point because
You're like, I have strong feelings on this, so I
figured you're very much on the other side of it.
So that was a really good point. And I love
the perspective of David being you know, I mean, we
have for praying Christian women, we have prayer through the psalms, right,
and I've fallen in love with David's Psalms, and here
(20:57):
he is like about as sinful as it gets.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
But yes, so are you ready to wrap up our
just for frond segment? Are you ready for the dumbest
Bible nerd joke that I came up with all by
myself And I am so proud.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Of I'm really impressed. I've got to hear it.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I gotta hear it. Hey, what did the ear nose
and throat doctor say to the psalmist when he came
in a hoarse voice? What say law? Did it take
you a second? It did? I'm like, say what I say? Law?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I was pretty proud of myself. Anyways, pretty that is impressive.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
You need to start. You've been telling jokes on our
We need to create like a true crime praying Christian
women like a lot of joke book, because you've you've
been telling some some like corny jokes, but that are funny.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
So you know what, there is nothing better than a
corny joke. I mean, there are lots things better than
a corny joke, but corny jokes are still pretty good.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I love corny jokes and puns.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
All right, So tell me, have you ever been touched
or what's the closest you've been touched by a church
scandal along the scope of what we're discussing. I would say.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Probably a member of a congregation I was part of.
After I left that congregation, there was a very disturbing
arrest of a prominent member of our congregation. And yeah,
that was shocking and I wasn't even part of the
(22:40):
church anymore. Yeah, and I just remember, like my world
was crushed, Like my worldview. I like, you know, grew
up around this person, and he was an amazing father.
He seemed like the perfect husband. Like I was envious
of their relationship growing up. I was like, Man, I
(23:02):
hope my marriage is like that, And so it just
made me realize the like I feel like I'm not.
I mean, in some ways I'm gullible, like jokes my
kids will tell me and stuff. But when it comes
to people, I feel like I can be discerning. I
am an optimist, but I also feel like I can
catch a something's off vibe. You know, at least I
(23:25):
gave myself that that knowledge. So while it didn't affect
my day to day because I had since gotten married
and moved on with life, it was shattering, like it
shattered my sense of reality for that to be possible.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
M hmm. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit
more about that for somebody who's looking in and I
totally get it, but pretend I have never gone to church,
and I'm like, well, you weren't even at this church.
This person never hurt you specifically or anybody hopefully that
you knew or cared too much about. That sounded kind
(24:05):
of bad, but you know what I'm saying. So why
would this shake your faith when it didn't directly impact
you and people that were the closest to you.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I think it is because for someone who isn't part
of a church, or who never has been your church
many times becomes like your extended family. You know, we
didn't just see them once a week. We saw these
people all the time. And church, I think is a
safe place. We go there because we expect that everyone,
(24:40):
even though we ourselves are inherently sinful and imperfect. I
think we go there and expect that the collective body
is out for everyone's good. And I think that that
safety and that like what you consider to be transparency,
because think of like a Sunday school class or you know,
(25:01):
when you're sharing conversation with people, it tends to be
on a deeper level than a water cooler. You're talking
about spiritual things. You're talking about your life, you're talking
about your you know, desire to be more like Jesus.
A lot of times you're vulnerable and you're sharing things,
and so I think it just gives this illusion that
everyone's guard is down. Everyone is you know who they
(25:25):
say they are, And the truth is none of us are.
We all have stuff we keep behind closed doors. But
when it becomes something that damaging, you're just like, how
could I how could that have been in plain sight?
How could I have not known or picked up on it.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, we had a scenario that was a little similar,
same type of crime, and it came out after we
had already moved. And I remember, so I'm curious if
you struggled. I remember feeling guilty. There was a sense
of I should have done some thing because in my
case there was an inkling. And I even told Scott
(26:06):
about the inkling. But you can't call the police because
of an inkling. And no, you really probably shouldn't even
go to the pastor unless it's a really really strong
you know, that's a big thing. It would have been
a huge accusation with no founding other than goosebumps, you know,
(26:27):
and that kind of stuff. And especially to women listening,
those goosebumps and those feelings are a gift from God
that your body gives you. I'm not going to go
so far as to say it's the Holy Spirit. I'm
just going to say God has given us the ability
to sense danger as a way to protect ourselves and
our children and our families and our communities. So do
(26:51):
not disregard and pooh pooh those feelings. However, I remember
I actually had two scenarios like this the other scenario,
it was like I knew that the sin was coming,
but it hadn't happened yet, so I was just kind
of like watching and waiting. And then when it did
happen and it made a pretty big splash and hurt
(27:12):
a lot of people, again, I felt guilty. It was like, well,
should I have done something? So what do you think
about that? Did you experience any feelings like that?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I didn't, because I think because I was so far
removed from it, and when I was part of that congregation,
I was younger, and so I guess I didn't. Really
I didn't have I guess you could call it guilt.
It wasn't guilt as much as like a correct perception
(27:41):
of reality all things, I mean, in the same way,
only on a different level and obviously more much more different.
When you find out someone has been cheating on you,
Like I had a boyfriend that I found out was
cheating on me, and I had this perception of what
our relationship was. When I found that out, it was
(28:01):
like kind of your world cracks and shatters and you
have to, like, you know, the tectonic plates shift and
you have to sort of reassess everything you know and
it was that same type of thing. But I wouldn't
say there was guilt because yeah, because I didn't have
an inkling and I wasn't as an adult fully formed
in the way I would take ownership. Do you know
what I mean? Like, if it happened now, i'd question myself,
(28:24):
but yeah, back then I didn't so much.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, after finding out years after I'd been removed, I
would say for people who are struggling with that guilt,
I mean, it can come in multioys, it can come
in why didn't I see this coming? Kind of in
the same way that you started questioning yourself, like, well,
if I got hoodwinked by this guy, what else might
I be wrong about? Or you know more For me,
(28:50):
it was like, well should I have done something? Like
could I have stopped this? And what I came to
realize because I wrestled with it a lot, and I
think where I settled is premonitions a lot of time,
especially if it's premonitions about other people. Right Like if
(29:10):
I had a premonition about my own child, that would
be so different, but premonitions about other people. I think
my default has turned into I have received this premonition,
so that I can pray over this situation, and I
never assume that the premonition is there so that I
(29:30):
take some type of action beyond prayer, and then if
the prayer leads me to do something else, then I
do it. If not, the way I look at it,
it's almost like imagine the guilt you'd feel if you
had a bad feeling about someone going on a car trip,
you didn't say anything, and then they got in a
really bad accident, and so you're left wondering, like my
(29:53):
responsible for my loved one's death because I didn't say
that I had a bad feeling about this accident. And
where I have come to land is that that is
too much guilt for human shoulders, Like that's God territory.
That's like sovereign God territory. But where I would land
on that is you get the premonition, you pray, and
(30:15):
then if in prayer you're led to say something, God
will tell you that you're supposed to say something. If not,
So if I got a premonition, this is all hypothetical
that there was going to be like something wrong, Like
I'm nervous about my husband taking this road trip, and
so I go to pray and I don't get the
sense of you need to bring this up to your husband,
(30:35):
so I don't, and then something devastating happens on the road.
Where I go to is not I am responsible for
my husband's accident, because again I think that's too much
authority on a person and not on the Lord. But
where I go to is because I prayed it turned
out better than it would have otherwise, and so that's
(30:56):
how I handle the girl. I've got multiple story stories
of times where I wish I had prayed with somebody
or wondered if I was supposed to have shared a
premonition but didn't, And that's where I have settled on.
It's my premonition led me to pray, that prayer made
(31:16):
the outcome better than it would have been otherwise.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
No, I think that's a very safe and humble, like
right where you're supposed to be way to deal with it,
because if you're too willy nilly with dishing out premonitions
like you could do some damage and to put it
in God's hands to the point of like, well, I
(31:43):
remember a time completely unrelated to church scandal, but like
my mother in law was supposed to be watching our
kids while like our kid at the time it was
only one. It would have been the first time I
would have been away from our son when he was little,
and my husband and I were going to go off
with some friends to see if football came in Nebraska
or something, and the morning we were supposed to leave,
(32:08):
she was like crying, and I mean we had plane tickets, everything,
and she was crying and she was like, I just
I don't think you should go. She's like meeting me,
She's like, I think if you leave, I just have
a bad feeling about how this is going to go
with our son. Anyway, it was it was a long story,
(32:30):
but basically she and she's like, I have been praying
about this since two in the morning, fighting God on it.
Not wanting to say this to you because I know
you're good, you know, I don't know what else to say.
But she's like, I just I feel like this is
not like you're not supposed to go right now. And
I don't know what it was about in retrospect, but
(32:51):
what I know about my mother in law is that
she is an amazing woman of God. She would do
anything for us or her grandkids. And it was way
at a character for her not to stay there and
be with, you know, and watch him. So I have
to believe, and I believe firmly that there was something
(33:12):
and they go without you or yeah, my husband, Yeah,
Matt went without me with everybody. And I cried the
whole way to the airport and Bob, I was like,
I needed this so badly. You know, I hadn't been
away from him in you know, a year, however long
it was, and I was so looking forward to it.
But I trust and even then, as disappointed as I was,
(33:36):
I was never mad at her, and I was never
ever I didn't ever doubt that she heard from God,
because I know that she was praying all of those hours,
and so all of that to say, if you're praying
and you feel God just pushing and pushing and pushing
you to say something, that's one thing.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Exactly, because here's another way to read it, you know,
knowing what I know of your mother in law, and
I don't think i've ever met her, like I think
everybody did exactly what they were supposed to do. I
could see another scenario where there's just a grandma who's
really nervous to be alone with the grand baby, right
and turns that into an anxiety spiral, and then her
(34:29):
brain just kind of warps that into God told me
that you shouldn't do this right, And so that's why
it's always you always have to check the source. You
always have to just take everything with that grain of salt.
Always go back to your own prayer closet with it. Never,
no matter how godly somebody is, if there's no other takeaway,
(34:51):
especially when we're talking about how easy it is for
church scandals and for church leaders to fall into horrifics
and never an individual at their word, no matter how
how close you are to them. You know, I mean
very very small exceptions. You know, you and your husband,
(35:13):
you and me, you and your mother in law, Like
somebody that you know is going to like jump in
front of that frame for you, and you trust their
spiritual instinct. Still pray about it, but you know it's
it's not the same as like sometimes like just keep
your guard up and never put it down. Like if
I'm just walking through Walmart and some person just comes
(35:34):
up to me and starts rambling that God's going to
do something terrible to my kid, I'm not giving that
person any spiritual attention like, if anything, I'm going to
be praying hard for protection against that person, do you
know what I mean? And I will also trust that
if God truly has a message for me, that He's
going to deliver it to me in a way that
I'm going to understand. Like that's why angels didn't come
(35:57):
and speak in foreign languages to you know, the Old
Testament prophets, or if they did, like somehow the prophets
knew exactly what they were saying. Like, so God's going
to talk to us in ways that we get And
for me, that's not going to be the weirdo who
comes up and wraps on my window at a red
light and scares me, you know exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
And yeah, I mean it's like anything any kind of advice,
any kind of word from the Lord or anything like that. Yeah,
it's need to use caution.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah. Well, and presumably nothing terrible happened to you, your
child or anybody who went to the football game. Correct.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
No, And to be a little bit more clear, it
was I believe the context of what she felt was
that it would be traumatic for him for.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Me to leave.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I can't remember how old he was, but you know,
she lived states away they had not had a whole
live interaction. Yeah, and so it had to do with
his response to me being away when we were so attached.
And yeah, again she is the kind of like she
(37:09):
was really looking forward to staying with him. So again
it went completely against what she would have chosen, which
gave her and me kind of that confidence of like, yeah,
that it doesn't add up. And since then they've watched
our kids tons of times and never had any bad feelings,
so I don't.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, it didn't have to be something hugely dramatic.
It could have been something as simple as like nothing
horrible would have happened at all. Like I love thinking
that God has every single multiverse opportunity in his brain.
I'm not saying that I believe that there's like an
infinite number of Jamie's who all made different decisions, but
(37:50):
I think we see it in Matthew, where Jesus says,
if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen what you see today,
they would have repented. So at the very least, Sara,
are certain scenarios where God knows the hypothetical what if
he knows what it would have happened? And what I
love to think is maybe had you gone, nothing terrible
would have happened that day, Nothing terrible would have happened
(38:11):
that year, maybe ten years from now. You're going to
need to trust a strange word from the Lord that
comes through your mother in law or comes from somebody else,
and because you've practiced doing that, you're going to make
the right decision in that moment, and you're going to
save your child's life. Right Like, we never fully know
(38:33):
all the details, but what I'm saying is I think
there's a certain personality, and I will go ahead in
public peek confess I might fall into this personality. I
had been your mother in law, there would have been
and I would have hated this aspect of myself. But
I'm guessing there would have been an anybody fraction that
almost wanted something bad to happen, like nobody to get hurt,
(38:56):
but just so that I could be like, oh it right,
you know, so that so that I could give myself
that pat on the head, and also so that I
could not feel like I was the crazy lady who
flaked out on my sun and his family. But we don't.
We're not given that benefit. I love that asen says,
(39:16):
you remember that quote in Narnia. Asthen says it in
a couple of the different books. I think he says
suddenly like we never get to know the the what ifs,
but he says it, I think in a more poetic way,
and so we don't know, but don't. What I'm saying is,
inasmuch as you can in that say you don't wish
for the bad thing to happen to prove yourself right.
It's way better for everything to go totally right and
(39:39):
for you to look a little bit like you overreacted.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, and in that case, who knows, developed antally there
might have needed you their attachment wise, that really had
to happen at that critical part of his development, and
we will never know, but.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
He might not be at west Point right now if
it hadn't been for that decision. Then I wish I
had gone yeah, right, yeah, Now, well back to scandals
and things. I would love to end with just I
think we've talked about the empathy that we can have
(40:16):
and showing how the ripples are farther reaching than you
would expect, and I would love to close with what
to do if you are in that ripple? Right, now,
or just takeaways that you can hold on to, like
a life raft that you can keep under your seat
in case you ever are in that ripple. So, I
(40:40):
guess imagine that you are involved in a scandal that
does hit a lot closer to home than anything you
or I have gone through before. What truths would you
hope that in the worst of those moments you would
have to hold on to?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
I guess the first one is just that no matter
what happens, God is in it, even when it doesn't
look like it, even when it looks like what you
thought God was has been shattered, because you might think, well,
of course God is going to protect. Of course God
is going to make sure that corruption stays out of
(41:18):
his you know, holy place. So I think definitely remembering
that God is all in all things. God is at
work for those who love Him and who are called
according to His purpose. To realize that it's okay to grieve,
and it's okay to be angry, and it's okay to
take a break if you need to that, you know,
(41:40):
I mean, I know sometimes there needs to be a
time of separating yourself out. And I'm a proponent of
meeting with the body of Christ. But if you need
to step back temporarily to heal, to regroup, to process,
to figure things out by all means. But at the
same time, I would say, please, don't disconnect and take
a break from God. You know, during that time, just
(42:05):
remember that God can handle your anger, he can handle
your frustration, He can handle you beating your fists against
his chest and asking why, and to do that in
his direction rather than running away and trying to process
it yourself, because that's not going to end well, you know,
it's just going to end with a lot of pain.
You're still going to have the pain you're just going
(42:26):
to have. You know, You're going to block yourself from
God's work to help you heal. And I think the
thing that I am not sure I'm qualified to answer
is the question of what do we do with Absolutely
we know what to do with the victims. We love them,
we strive for restoration and conversation, we believe them. But
(42:48):
what do we do with the person who was responsible
for the fall?
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah? No, the Bible I think has a perfect prescription
of that. You take him out the city gates in
new Stonam. Yeah, right, that's all. That's literally all there
is a camp. No, of course, everybody knows I'm being facetious.
That is a very hard one because I think we
need to put church leaders who fall into scandal into camps.
(43:16):
I think we need to put some into the camp
of a believer who fell into sin and was remorseful
and a narcissist who joined church leadership because they like
being in that position of power, and they like being
(43:37):
surrounded by yes men and yes women, and no matter
what happens, if given the opportunity, they would do what
they did again and again and again. And really good
narcissists are not going to show their colors super easily
to let you know which camp they're in. So I
(43:59):
would say one of the wisest things is to and
obviously not many of us are going to be in
a position of like creating church by laws, but I
think it is very important for churches to have smart
safeguards in place for not giving one individual carte launch
(44:24):
authority and also not giving a board so much authority
that like, the pastor says one thing that two of
them don't like, and now that pastor's out on the curb,
having some kind of balance there, and so much is preventative.
(44:45):
It is praying not only for your like for your leader,
or for the person who might be who's fall into
sin would be the most likely or the most disasters
for your congregation, but for the advisors and surrounding that person,
because truly they should be the first line of defense.
(45:07):
But again it gets very hard because some people are
going to pool everybody. And I read a really disturbing
fact that I have since gone back and corroborated more
than once because I don't want to believe it's true.
But of like the top five jobs that a narcissist
is most like, a clinical classic narcissist is most drawn too.
(45:31):
Clergy is on that list because they are in a
position to control and manipulate. And like you said, a
lot of people take their guard down more in a
church than they would in a business room or something
like that. So prayer and grace, but so much diligence.
(45:54):
There are some people who I am going to go
on record standing shouldn't be reinstated. I don't care how
sorry you make me think that you are. At the moment.
What's hard is to put on a piece of paper
steps to know whether you are under the camp of
repentant sinner who should be not immediately reinstated in most cases, ever,
(46:17):
is my opinion, but on a path toward reconciliation to
your church and potentially to a position of leadership. And
again I think that's where an elder board would come in.
I don't think that any church should operate without a
shared leadership amongst multiple people, so that if the lead
(46:39):
pastor falls into sin and it's not so heinous that
they immediately just get fired and never come back, that
there will be steps to say, okay, for example, like
six months, you're welcome to attend and worship with us,
but you are not going to speak upfront after that time.
If you show us I mean basically like you might
do in an intervention, right after that point in time,
(47:01):
if you can show us that you have done this, this,
and this, then we will invite you to do the
opening prayer right and with the goal of continued reinstatements
to the point where it is wise. And some of
that wisdom is for the protection of the church. Some
of that wisdom is for the protection spiritually of the
(47:22):
repentant pastor or the repentant sinner, because if they get
thrust back into the spotlight too quickly without addressing what
led them into sin in the first place. They are
such rpe picking for it to happen again. So sadly
I don't have a check these three boxes, and then
this person gets kicked out and should never preach anymore
(47:45):
and check these three boxes, and this person should be
on a path toward reinstatement. But I would say, if
we're going to air, let's air on the side of
being more gracious in our hearts towards somebody, more protective
in our actions towards the church. If that makes sense,
(48:06):
extend the benefit of the doubt more to the person
who sins than you might feel they deserve, but be
even more cautious about protecting the safety of the members
of your congregation. Right, So, if that means airing on
(48:26):
the side of somebody getting their feelings hurt because they're
not reinstated as quickly as they want to, but it's
the best decision for the safety of the church, to me,
that still makes more sense. But I do believe that
there's a way to do that while still extending a
lot of grace in your heart. And that's where I
think a lot of Christians fail, it's got to be
one or the other.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
I think you're absolutely right there. I love the way
you put that. I think that sums it up perfectly
because a pattern I see in several of these prominent
church scandals, and I'll just name them. There's Bethel was
one of the big ones that had like not just
instituttionetional issues, but there were like individuals associated with them
(49:05):
who were preying on people in a number of ways,
and they were just allowed to run rampant and reinstated.
And when they were called out for misbehavior and sin,
the people accusing them were being chastised for either causing
a man of God to stumble or on the other hand,
(49:26):
not be extending enough forgiveness and basically just allowing them
to continue to prosper. And I think, did I say
Bethel Endhell Song? And then there are the people within,
Like the Southern Baptist Convention has been elevated lately, you know,
in the last ten years or so, it's been exposed
that they've been covering things up, and the you know,
(49:46):
every denomination I think has been called out. And I
think this idea of let's just the good old boys
network let's just let's just pat him on the back
and let them keep going while ignoring or shunning or
qualifying victims. And then the other side that you have
is people who are just going to be casting stones
constantly and never giving anyone the opportunity or the option
(50:12):
to show repentance and to show that they, you know,
can still be used by God, you know, to use
their gifts to edify the church body. But what you said,
I think two things that are paramount. One, love God
with all your heart right and love your neighbor as yourself.
So if we do those two things, we are loving
(50:34):
the body of Christ enough not to allow them to
be put in any danger whatsoever. I'm going to read this.
I didn't get to our verse of the day, but
I'm going to read it because it's really relevant to
what you just said. This is Ezekiel thirty four to
two from the NIV, Son of Man prophesy against the
shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, this is
what the sovereign Lord says, woe to use shepherds of Israel,
(50:56):
who only take care of yourselves. Should not shepherds take
care of the So it's loving the body of Christ
enough to protect them and shield them from any hint
of possibility of being defiled or let astray or hurt.
But then on the other hand, that like love of
(51:16):
Jesus who ate with the tax collectors and the prostitutes
and did not condemn but just loved them and challenged
them to live righteous lives, so they can both exist
in the same place. It's not not loving someone or
not forgiving someone to set boundaries to protect the body
(51:39):
of Christ. And if we could learn to do those
both well, which is so hard in practice, Yeah, the
church would be a lot healthier.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Yeah. I want to close with a picture of something
I saw as an outsider looking in. So I'm sure
it was not as simplistic as I'm going to make it.
But I was in a community where I went to
Church A, and I was aware that at Church B,
the pastor had had an affair and the church was
(52:09):
really reeling after the fact. And what I saw, again
being fairly removed. So this is going to be oversimplified,
but what I saw was a church who was heartbroken
for themselves, for their pastor, especially for his wife. I
(52:31):
saw her like when people would see her at the store.
They would go out of their way to give her
hugs and be like, how are you doing, how are
things going? We are praying for you. Now. Certain personalities
that might be worse, but I saw extensions of so
much love and appreciation, where so many of our defaults
would be to like, oh, I don't want to say
(52:52):
anything because this is so awkward. And I saw the
pastor being removed from the pulpit, but not from the church,
and that is, in my opinion, difficult, beautiful and gracious
for everybody involved. For the church and the elders to say,
(53:15):
we cannot have you preaching, but we don't want you
to leave, and for him to say, this has got
to be the most awkward, painful thing in the world.
But this is my family and my home. I saw
just that quick snapshot. I have no idea how it ended.
I have no idea all of the tears and drama
(53:36):
that you know went on behind all the closed doors.
But I thought that was a beautiful picture and a
beautiful testimony, especially for non believers to go and look at.
The church was not being naive. They weren't saying, oh, oh,
he's fine. He just made this one mistake but they
also weren't saying you're not welcome here, and your wife
(53:59):
is disgusting because she obviously did something wrong for her
husband to have had an affair. You know, I guess
our impromptu blessing to close is, may we all find
that degree of both grace and wisdom and discernments to
be protecting of the flocks that were part of and
also to be gracious towards those who are imperfect, which
(54:22):
is all of us, and to know how to be
so gracious and so protective at the same time while
guarding our hearts from cynicism and bitterness. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
We'd like to take just a quick second to thank
the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us
on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
and so much more. That's life audio dot Com on
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