In-N-Out took 80 years to become a legend. Raising Cane's did it in 36 — with worse chicken and a better marketing team. Two founders sat down with Josh at the Book & Bourbon Club fly-in to debate what actually wins in 2026: the slow, silent build or the personal-brand turbocharge.
Guests: Dennis Leis (investor, MetPro, LRT, Whole Body Fitness) and Trace Miller (founder/CEO of Konala — high-protein drive-thru restaurants, konalafranchise.com).
Three debates, no filler:
The personal branding debate — can you still grow a massive business silently? The In-N-Out vs. Raising Cane's case study, the "sellout" question every founder wrestles with, and why your best customer is literally dying every day.
The AI debate — Dennis is all-in, Trace is skeptical, and Josh is in the middle. China just passed a law that you can't lay someone off and replace them with AI. Salesforce is cutting tens of thousands. Only 2% of the world is actually using it. What "ethical capitalism" looks like when the tokens cost more than the labor.
The hiring debate — Dennis hires for his weaknesses and openly admits he has zero desire to be a CEO. Trace wants to grow into his weaknesses, Gymshark-style. Two founders, two very different answers to the oldest question in business.
Plus Dennis unveils the AI-powered talent-matching platform he's building in beta — outbound recruiting for cultural fit instead of skills-first hiring.
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Follow Dennis Leis: Instagram @dennis.leis
Follow Trace Miller & Konala: konalafranchise.com
Book & Bourbon Club: joshkosnick.com
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Books mentioned:
• Raving Fans — Ken Blanchard
• Unreasonable Hospitality — Will Guidara
• Good to Great — Jim Collins
• Blue-Collar Cash — Ken Rusk
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Follow Josh Kosnick:
Website — joshkosnick.com
Instagram — @joshkosnick
LinkedIn — linkedin.com/in/joshkosnick
Subscribe for weekly conversations on leadership, faith, and building a life worth living.
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