It's A Sin, S01E03

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Thank you to Ashleih-Ann for commissioning this episode! 
This is the one where my little cinnamon roll dies and I will never forgive anyone.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is an unspoiled network podcast. This is spoil Me
covering It's a Sin Season one, episode three. In this episode,
I'm never allowed to say anybody is good and perfect

(00:24):
and needs to be protected at all costs ever again,
because I mean, honestly, Colin why he is too good
and pure hated? See you next time to Luve motherfuckers.

(00:50):
Just kidding. Welcome, I guess to spoil me. Welcome to

(01:13):
the show everyone. I am Natasha. Thank you, but also
no thank you to Ashley In for commissioning this episode.
Oh my god, this was so tough, you guys. The
thing that I am the most surprised by in this
whole thing is how little I actually knew about the

(01:39):
various symptoms of HIV and AIDS. I had no idea
that fits like this were a thing, And it is
explained later that like the fits aren't exactly the virus,
the virus is causing his immune system to be compromise

(02:00):
so that the fits are able to attack his brain.
Right like that, There is a whole secondary thing going
on because of the results of a compromised immune system.
But it never occurred to me that you would be
symptomless up until a secondary thing happened to you. I

(02:24):
always thought it would be like that you knew that
you had HIV by the time a secondary infection of
some kind hit, because my thought was that your immune
system wouldn't be fully compromised until there were other external,

(02:44):
visible symptoms. And evidently that's not necessarily how it works.
It's sometimes how it works. It seems like it's sort
of more frequently how it works, but not always. And
the shock of how quickly this all goes it was
really really tough, y'all. I was just not ready. I

(03:06):
was crying so many times throughout this episode. I was
a wreck. It's like the kind of thing where I
want somebody to watch the show with me because I
don't want to be alone in this, but I also
do not want to Like, if I were going to

(03:27):
be recommending the show to a friend who couldn't actively
sit physically with me and watch it, I would be
loath to put them through that when I am not
physically there to hug them when they start crying, because
I just be like, this is you know, plus the
fact that a lot of my friends are queer and
it feels like here, let me send you something that's

(03:49):
like maybe specifically upsetting to you because of the space
that you occupy in the world, you know. I I
feel like this show really does manage to like straddle
this gap between extreme tragedy and like the beauty and

(04:11):
vibrance of life, and it's a really difficult line, you know.
And this loss of Colin, I'm really interested in how
the other characters are going to cope with this as
we go forward, because it is a lot it is

(04:33):
shocking to them, even though you know, obviously his death
is gradual. We finally like get to a place where
he has been ill for a while and they are
prepared for his death to a point. But it's just
the fact that he is the one to go down
out of everybody that is so surprising. And it's like

(04:57):
we find out eventually because he says a about how
it was the football jersey that did it, and I
genuinely had a moment of like, wait what, because at
first I thought he was going to try and say
that he caught it from Henry because you know, he
was in contact with him, not that he wasn't fully
covered from head to toe in hasmat gear by the

(05:21):
time he saw him in the hospital, but he was
in physical contact with him before the symptoms began to show,
so I sort of wondered if he was going to
lay it at his door. But we see later that
the guy he's watching take his shirt off, and like

(05:41):
eyeballing at the boarding house he stayed at, he actually
hooked up with that guy, it seems a couple times,
and that dude is not accepting it doesn't feel like
of his own either like homosexuality or bisexuality or whatever,

(06:05):
because he's like using slurs while he's fucking Colin and
like just clearly holding him in contempt as he is
participating in the behavior. And this is something that I
have heard of a lot, and it never ceases to

(06:28):
be like one of the saddest situations I can imagine,
where you are doing a thing while in the in
the grip of such profound self loathing that you are
demeaning the person you are doing it with because of
your self loathing but also like making them feel degraded,

(06:53):
and so it's just awful for everybody involved to me.
And like, granted, Colin seems very willing, very like you know,
he's he's letting the dude know at the table when
he's going to be around and just like you know,
so it's I'm not trying to say that Colin is

(07:15):
that this was like without his consent, but I am
saying that Colin seems so willing to accept the bare
minimum because he is he had been up until that
point unable to like fully engage with his sexuality and
so this was maybe one of the first outlets he
ever got. I don't know if it is the first

(07:38):
or just you know, but there's a sense of him
not having a lot of experience and it just makes
me so so sad that he would be infected by
a hookup that was so lacking in respect or joy,

(07:59):
you know what I mean. It's one thing if you
are if the person who gives you this disease, it's
not like it makes it better. But there's a feeling
of like, well, I was really living, you know, I
was going for it. But this just feels so like

(08:19):
secret and shameful to the dude that was the football
jersey you can't even remember if you ever actually get
a name for him, I don't think we do. And
Colin never really addresses that, you know, because like frankly,
there comes a point with this where he isn't all there,

(08:41):
He's not really able to have a proper conversation anymore.
So I don't know how he feels about it, and
maybe he doesn't see it in the same light that
I do at all. But and you know, one could
say that there's a lack of joy with the hookups
between and both Richie and Roscoe. They have both cycled

(09:04):
through tons of partners, and it's you know, you could
argue that for sure, but there's also a sense of like, yeah,
but they're hooking up with lots of people because they
are fully exploring their sexuality, they're embracing it, They're feeling
free for the first time, and so they are going
all out because they're finally able to. And there isn't

(09:27):
that sense of freedom and excitement the same way with
Colin so ugh. You guys, Okay, let's start from the
beginning here. I want to talk about Richie first, because
this his story is just so I just understand. I

(09:49):
understand it's like every at every turn, he makes choices
that I want to shake him. But I also really
deeply get why he makes the choices that he does,
where he's coming from and I know that I personally
have made similar unwise choices because of fear or lust

(10:16):
or just a unfounded certainty that I'm safe because I
have a stigma that I associate with something that is
unfounded and ignorant. And this is something that I think
over the past few years we have definitely come to
like I won't say that there is no stigma anymore,

(10:38):
because that's an absolute lie, But what I am saying
is that I think we're beginning to grow more aware
of the fact that shaming sexually transmitted infections and diseases
causes them to spread more because people do not want
to face up to the fact that they have them.

(11:00):
So it's not just I don't want to get tested,
it's if I test positive, I don't want to tell
my partner because they are going to think a thing
about me. And that comes up so often this episode
is this claim that I'm not dirty, I've never done
anything dirty, which like, what do you even mean by that?

(11:22):
What does that mean? It's especially weird when Richie says it,
because I'm like, I know you have hooked up with
guys that you like, didn't know their names, which I
think for the standard of dirty that would meet a
lot of people's criteria is that you like know nothing
about this person and maybe never see them again, you know.
And I want to know what he means by it.

(11:43):
What does he think that is, because it's just unprotected
sex is the thing. And I really I understand that
he is trying to say this about himself to indicate that,
like he isn't like those other guys. But I really

(12:04):
would love to have somebody sit down and sort of
have him interrogate what it is that he thinks he's
actually saying. Because when he says I've never done anything
dirty to the guy that he starts seeing more seriously,
whose name I cannot remember now, he his partner immediately
also picks this up and is just like, oh, yeah,

(12:26):
I haven't either, And then it becomes I can trust you,
can't I? And then it's like turns into an entire
other question. Donald that's his name, but turning it into
I can trust you? What does that mean? Again? It's meaningless,

(12:52):
But like I definitely, when I was in my early
twenties had an unprotected one night stand, and I think
about it all the time, how stupid it was and
how there was a big part of me as it

(13:12):
was happening that didn't want it to happen and didn't
even realize that it was unprotected until it was already underway.
And now there's like a certain awareness around unprotected sex
without consent is rape in its own way. And I

(13:33):
have struggled a lot with like facing up to the
fact that I was sexually assaulted because I didn't want that,
and I like didn't even feel like I could say no, stop,
get off me, because it felt sort of like, well,
once it started, I don't know that I'm going to
be able that it's going to make a difference to

(13:55):
stop it. And also, trying to get a guy off
you is not an easy thing when it has been
consensual up until that point. Any woman knows trying to
stop in the middle of it, Dudes do not react well.
And so I think about this all the time because

(14:18):
there are just I have, like this frustration where I
look at that situation in the rearview mirror and I
think I should have done I could have said I could,
you know, like all of these different ways I could
have handled the situation. But when I really stop and consider,
I can't help but get why I just decided to

(14:42):
let it happen. And the scene here where the two
of them are trying to use protection, it's him and
Donald finally hooking up. And apparently what's different here is
that Richie and Donald they they meet because they keep
both showing up at the same auditions for roles all

(15:05):
around London, and finally Richie tracks Donald down at this
bar and they hook up. I thought, like fully, but
it turns out to be a makeout and like jerk session.
But later on Donald says something like I want to

(15:25):
fuck you properly, and Richie is like, yeah, me too.
So I'm realizing, oh, they haven't actually had sex yet,
like I was assuming. And this just shows how far
things have come in terms of overall awareness, because Richie
had been in such denial about HIV being a real threat.

(15:47):
Then now he's restraining himself from having sex that they're
considering using condoms. This is a pretty big leap forward
overall in being aware and using and precautions. But then
I knew as this was happening, this is going to
be what it was. He we have, like Donald going

(16:09):
to get the condom out. It's difficult and fiddly to
unwrap it, and the one that he tries to put on,
he like tries to put it on inside out, which
is a you know, makes it sort of like not
safe potentially, so he has to get a second one
and try to do that one, and by the time
he does that, he's lost this boner. And I have

(16:33):
heard so many people go through like this sort of thing,
like a friends of mine who were trying to use
protection and just felt it killed the vibe so hard,
and I totally totally understand it. It's sort of like
a surprising thing to me as well, the way that

(16:53):
it's framed a lot of the time, because the messaging
that you see about like who is resistant regarding using protection,
it's almost always framed as men don't like to use
it because it doesn't feel as good, But for women
it doesn't really make any difference. And I will say personally,

(17:18):
it does make quite a difference on my end as well.
And when I first moved in and Marshall and I
were having sex with condoms, initially it was like nothing.
It was like I could it was just a bizarre
lack of the usual stimulation, and I remember him stopping

(17:44):
and just being like I can't feel anything, And I
was like, Okay, I can't either. So it's unfortunate because
like condoms are super effective, and it's not as if
there aren't there isn't some sensation that can come through
depending on the types that you use, but it requires

(18:06):
a sort of like awkward fumbling experimentation in the moment
that a lot of people don't want to deal with.
And it's also like not cheap to try all different
kinds of brands of condoms, you know. So yeah, the

(18:28):
whole scene leading up to the two of them deciding
that they are going to go ahead and have sex anyway,
it's so agonizing because the two of them have convinced
themselves and each other that they are somehow just outside
of everybody else who's being affected by this and it

(18:48):
couldn't happen to them in a way that's like I
believe they really actually deep down aware that's a lie.
But because the other is helping to worth that delusion,
it works out in that moment for both of them
continuing on burying their head in the sand. And it's

(19:09):
just a distinct departure from like last episode, Richie's denial
felt very grounded in the reality of all of the
crazy theories and how it feels cemented in bigotry. But
this episode, his denial is coming from a different place.

(19:30):
It's coming from fear, and it's coming from uh an,
like a combination of ignorance and what I had I think,
like mentioned in the last episode, of just something that
is really inconvenient and not wanting to deal with it.

(19:51):
So it kind of makes me ask myself, was his
protestation in the previous episode that this wasn't even real
actually coming from a similar place of oh, well, I'm
afraid and it's inconvenience, So I'm going to denigrate the
whole concept because I don't want it to be true,

(20:14):
and I can make it look like I'm just being rational,
and I think that's really what it is, and it's
just relatable. I get it. So eventually him and Donald's
are talking about something and Donald turns to bend and

(20:34):
pick something up and show it to Richie, and when
he does, Richie sees this mark on his back and
immediately seems to believe that it's a lesion, that this
is a symptom. Now, I don't know if he had
noticed that this kid didn't have any marks on his

(20:56):
back and now this lesion has appeared, or if it's
a birthmark, and he is because he is so paranoid
about this now seeing something here that isn't there, it's
unclear to me, but he eventually just starts ghosting Donald.

(21:19):
And this killed me, Guys. It killed me because it
is such a combination of cowardice and disrespect and it's
just not It doesn't feel like he cares about anybody

(21:42):
but himself in this situation. If it's possible that Donald
is infected, that I'm sorry, that's my dog playing outside. Guys,
it feels to me like, yeah, I get that you
are afraid potentially that you are infected, but let's set

(22:03):
that aside for a moment and talk to Donald about
the fact that he might be and also that he
should get tested because this lesion is in a place
that he can't even see, so he may not even
be aware, or it may be a birthmark, and if
you brought it up, he would be able to set
your fears at rest. But uh, it doesn't. Like Frankly,

(22:25):
Richie is just so self absorbed about the whole thing
that he decides to physically hide from Donald. And Donald
is downstairs yelling for Richie to come to the door
with no knowledge of why Richie is suddenly ghosting him,
which like, honestly, if I were in Donald's shoes, I
would be wondering if Richie were sick and if I

(22:47):
should get tested, just because now he's refusing to face me,
and maybe that means he's infected, you know, which it
wouldn't be the worst thing if Donald did leap to
that conclusion, because but potentially that would mean he is
going to go and get tested himself. But it was
just like so gross to see how Richie just lets

(23:09):
him fucking sway in the wind and then eventually goes
to get tested and he gets up and leaves without
getting his results because he is so terrified. And I
really really understand that as well, Like that dread that
the way that they play that scene, the whole way

(23:33):
that they play that scene, and then the way they
end the episode, it makes you think, is a viewer
that Richie is positive, because we see both Roscoe and
Ash getting their negative results, but we don't see him
getting results. And then at the end of the episode,
when everybody is cuddled up and embracing over the loss

(23:53):
of Colin. He has kept himself separate and is sort
of like acting as if he doesn't want to touch anybody.
And it's as a viewer, you're thinking, oh my god,
he has it and he doesn't want to tell. But
as it turns out, he doesn't necessarily have it. He
is just unwilling to find out what the results were

(24:17):
of his test. And I think they say that the
test takes six weeks to get results on, which is
so long. Like that is such a long time. It
makes sense. There is like an infrastructure to blood testing
now that didn't used to exist. So now you can

(24:38):
get your blood test results sometimes within the hour that
you had them done, because you know, depending on where
you live and the kind of But six weeks without knowing,
I mean, my god, it's just ages. So yeah, the

(24:59):
episod it ends for Ritchie with him just feeling isolated
from the group. And I'm really curious if he is
ever going to go and get his results or if
he is going to continue to just bury his head
in the sand like this, And you know, if he does,

(25:20):
what is that going to look like? How is his
behavior overall going to change? Ashley N's in the chat
Hi Ashley in so Okay. Now let's talk about Roscoe.
Roscoe's situation is so wild. So he wakes up next
to this guy and they don't know each other's names.

(25:45):
But Roscoe goes out into this living area and the
screen goes up and it is this penthouse view of
the Thames and Big Ben. It is unbelievable. This spot
like insane money, right, And of course understandably, he assumes

(26:10):
that this is that man's apartment and is sort of like,
maybe I should see this guy again, Perhaps I should
you know. He's normally I'm gonna hit and quit it,
but when he sees this place, he's like, I'm going
to make a pot of tea and I Am going

(26:32):
to sit and enjoy the fuck out of this and
gets ushered out pretty quickly by the dude. There's definitely
a sense of like, I'm not doing this again, and
Roscoe sort of trying to act in the moment like
that that's fine, I get it, but you can see
he's like scheming and he goes back and the door

(26:56):
is answered by Stephen Fry, who is an MP. I
think is what it says on the news later on
so at first, it's giving I have an assistant who
fucks somebody in my house. This is super not okay,
YadA YadA, And I'm thinking like, oh shit, he has

(27:17):
maybe lost that guy his job, and are you about
to get in trouble, Like I was genuinely concerned for
Roscoe for a moment there. But later on Rosco sees
this guy in an interview on TV, like I'm you know,
they're they're catching this politician on the street asking him
about something, and there's a mention of like an event

(27:40):
that evening. So Roscoe sneaks into the event in this
tuxedo and goes right up to the dude and whispers
something in his ear. And then in next we see
in the next morning that he is back in this

(28:01):
incredible flat, enjoying this cup of tea in that spot. Again.
He has found a way to make it happen for himself.
Didn't matter about who it was, he was going to
be there, which, like, I think a lot of people
would find this sort of thing sort of despicable, but
I honestly just don't have a problem with it. It's

(28:22):
the sort of thing where everybody's getting what they want, right.
He wants money. He wants to live in luxury, he
wants to be surrounded by beauty, and there is a
man who has those things who wants to fuck him,
and he is willing to do that, and it seems
like no problem, so fine, you know who cares like

(28:44):
it's It's just it's certainly mercenary. But I don't think
that's an inherently bad thing. I just think that it's
a different standard than other people hold, and it gets
judged on a scale of morality that I'm just sort
of I always find puzzling because it's not as if

(29:05):
anybody is being fooled here. You know, he doesn't try
and seduce this NP by pretending to actually care about
him or anything. He's not lying. He just like propositions
him and has taken up on it. It just feels
like everybody's cards are on the table. And considering how

(29:27):
Roscoe like has wanted to prove to like we have heard,
his life's ambition is to have tons of money and
basically give everybody the finger, it makes sense to me
that this is the way he's going to align himself,
and I say, god speed. I do wonder if this
will give him any actual happiness, but that's his business.

(29:53):
And at the end of the episode, when he goes
and gets tested and it's negative, he actually says out loud,
but I've had everyone that's not fair, and I just
loved him for that. It wasn't It's not like. It
feels like he is trying to defend Colin in that

(30:14):
moment in a way that's ultimately like pointless. But there's
a sense of justice in him that understands I took
all the risks, how is this how it works? Which
it aligns with Roscoe's character just being angry the way
that he is. It's anger at God. You know, it's

(30:35):
just like, what kind of fucking fairness is that? And
I just appreciated that his thoughts about being negative were
immediately of Colin and his situation. It felt like the

(30:57):
opposite of how Richie is so self absorbed. It felt like,
you know, his thought immediately went to his friend and
he was having an argument with nobody. You know, there's
nobody in that room who's on the other side of
that issue. But he can't help but say it out
loud because he just feels so profoundly about it. So

(31:18):
and you guys, when they find out that Colin is
positive and they have to clean up all like it's
basically completely left to Roscoe to clean out his whole room.
There is a scene where he just sits down on
the bed after piling all of Colin's stuff into trash bags,

(31:43):
and he just starts sobbing, crying, And later on they
mentioned something about how his bed is waiting for him
if he wants to come home. So it feels as
if the initial reaction to his testing positive is I
can't touch anything. Roscoe's got the rubber gloves on, I've

(32:03):
got to like fumigate the room. But as time goes on,
it becomes understood by all of them that it's not
infectious in the way they were originally treating it. So,
you know, you see Jill, especially being willing to touch
Colin a lot. The others are willing, but she is

(32:25):
I feel very purposeful about it. I feel like she
goes out of her way to make physical contact because
she knows that they aren't being touched and that that
is valuable to not feel like you are diseased in
this way. That is a boogeyman. And I just love

(32:48):
Jill and her whole her desire to like humanize the
people going through all of this. So all right, now
we'll back up and we'll talk about Colin. I knew
this was going to like take a turn. I just
didn't think it was going to take the turn that
it did. Colin working at this copy center, he gets

(33:13):
given the keys to open the place up early, and
I just love everybody at dinner is asking him if
he gets a raise, is this a promotion, YadA, YadA,
And for him, she's just perfectly satisfied with the fact
that he is being trusted to do something that feels important.
The money, the promotion, none of that is like that

(33:34):
didn't even enter his mind to ask, because that's just
not the point. And they're all, you know, ribbing him
a lot about how he is so satisfied and his
life is so exciting and yeah, you know, especially Richie
who is sort of relentless, and Donald is even like, God, Richie, okay,

(33:56):
chill out, you know. But the next day he opens
the store. Everything seems to be going well, and then
the boss shows up and is like, oh, this is
what I like to see. Everything's already like, you know,
set up and ready to go. But Colin isn't responding,

(34:17):
and when he didn't immediately come out with a big
grin on his face, I knew something was really wrong
because he would be so proud of opening for the
first time that he would definitely be greeting his boss
like no question. So as the camera slowly pans around
and you see his feet on the floor and you
see him twitching, I was just like, oh no, And

(34:40):
I even wondered, is it going to be HIV or
is he going to be dealing with something else that
gets mistaken for HIV? Like I wasn't even sure how
this was going to go, And we smash cut to
him in the hospital and the gang contacting his mom

(35:05):
and the whole His mom, what a gem. She later on,
when he comes home for a little while before they
understand what's really going on here, she essentially says, in
so many words, I know you're gay, sweetie. It's fine,
you know. She really tries to make it clear I

(35:27):
don't have a problem with it. She sees Roscoe with
his makeup on and give him a kiss on the
head and call him sweetheart. She says, your friends are
a bit of a queer bunch. I think that's lovely.
You know. I love his mom. What an angel? Oh
my god, I love her, and she takes him home.

(35:49):
They're thinking that it's just a fit that's happened once,
which can occur. Apparently, I didn't know that they'll be honest.
But as he's talking to her, all of a sudden,
he says something, there's no person in France. There's just
you said that there was a person in France and
there isn't and there's just no point, so just leave
it alone. And she does a I think maybe we'll

(36:15):
bring you in to see somebody tomorrow, honey. And I'm
sitting there like what what? What's going on? It was
such a bizarre moment because like there's no other physical
indication that something happened in that moment. You know, when
he has the fit, it's a very very extreme seizure

(36:37):
on the ground. We find out later that he pissed himself.
And here he's eating and talking with her and there's
no beat where it feels like there's a confusion in him.
It's he transitions into this argument that it seems he
thinks they're having. So he go to see another doctor

(37:01):
and they're talking about what's going on? And he says
something like did you just see that the light? And
then as he says this, he goes into another really
extreme seizure, and long story short, he winds up in
that same green wing of the hospital, completely isolated that

(37:26):
Henry Coltrane had wound up in and in the same
cot as well. And when his mother comes to the
hospital to be like I want to take my son home,
there is this dude who there's like a I'm going
to call him like a sort of manager of the hospital,

(37:48):
and then like a cop and I don't know their roles,
I'll be honest, and then a nurse that are all
interviewing with her to basically tell her you are not
allowed to take him home. He isn't allowed to leave,
at which point we get the interference from the lawyer.

(38:08):
I don't remember this character's name, and I believe I'm
trying to remember. Ashley says, it's actually not supposed to
be the same hospital room. He's in Wales and Henry
was in London. Oh it looks like the exact same room.
I mean, like, matn't know. Maybe it's just they did

(38:31):
use the same set. Maybe it's just meant to be
sort of symbolically, he's being isolated the way that Henry was,
and he's supposed to be like, oh my god, here
I am. But yeah, it's uh, it's the way they
are I don't even want to say intimidating his mom.

(38:54):
It feels like that's too extreme, but they are certainly
speaking to her with a oh, well, it's out of
our hands kind of do you know what I'm saying,
where it's like what we wish we could help, but
there's really nothing else to be done. And eventually when

(39:19):
this lawyer gets involved, and I don't know if she
is like Muslim, but she's wearing a scarf, but it's
not a heat job or a knee kub. It's much
looser and it just just sort of draped over her head.
But her hair is very visible, which usually when it's

(39:40):
one of the other styles, the point is to keep
your hair covered. So I don't know what this is called.
But she comes in and just absolutely she is like
who you want to be in moments like this, where
she knows every detail about what they're claiming and knows

(40:05):
every detail about why this is bullshit, and then manages
to go from extremely aggressive and intimidating, and I Am
going to fuck your entire life up too. But we
are here to help because I understand that this disease
is terrifying, and we want to ensure that things are

(40:30):
handled with more education and compassion, because that is clearly
what's missing here. And if this isn't just the most
compassionate way to handle a motherfucker that I have ever seen,
it is just inspiring. I loved the whole vibe of

(40:50):
this because, y'all, I was talking with Rashaan recently about
the state of the world the United States, and recently
for the book Club, I covered a book called I'm
Starting to Worry About This Black Box of Doom, which

(41:11):
if you haven't read it, I really recommend it. Thank
you to Cindy who recommended it and co hosted that
episode with me. And that book deals a lot in
internet culture in a way that's very fair. I think
he both is willing to acknowledge that there is a
sense of community and support and you know, a way

(41:37):
to broaden your horizons via the Internet, but also acknowledges
that there is a terrible echo chamber that can happen
and not an echo chamber of just like I'm going
to surround myself with supportive people, but an echo chamber
that can cause like a agnation of thought and a

(42:05):
sort of leap to outrage or lack of giving the
benefit of the doubt due to the dehumanization of the
people that you're talking to. And that's really a lot
of what that book is about is people get dehumanized
by labels, and doing that it makes it easier for

(42:29):
us to feel that we are in the right or
that we can completely sum up who a person is,
because labels are there for a reason to a degree, right.
But what the author does is in some cases allows
us to get and get to know a person before
we eventually find out some online scandal that they were

(42:50):
involved in, or we get to find out about this bullshit,
and then we get to learn who the person is
and understand how much more there is to everybody, And
that a lot of the shutting down of conversation that

(43:10):
has resulted in recent years is because we have failed
to see everybody on each side as full human beings.
And I know that it's very very easy, especially when
what is going on in the United States right now.
I'm recording this July seventeenth of twenty twenty five. We

(43:30):
have got ice raids detention centers that are essentially these
like open air concentration camps. The Alligator Alcatraz thing is
going on right now there. It's really really hideous, and
so it's difficult to see anybody who voted for a

(43:53):
regime that is implementing these sorts of things as not
a villain. But I have been struggling tremendously with the
knowledge that my husband's grandparents voted for Trump, and these
two people are some of the kindest, most generous people

(44:13):
that you will ever meet, and it's bizarre to me,
profoundly bizarre that they can be the way that they
are and vote for this man. And the disconnect that
happens there. Because it's very easy for us to say

(44:35):
people knew what they were voting for. I don't think
they did. I don't think in a lot of cases
that people knew because they were not educated. In reality,
they were educated by with propaganda from one news source
and their friends who also all consumed that one news source,

(44:55):
plus a lot of like probably bots and miss information
online that was fed to them by an algorithm that
knew what they wanted to see, and it's not an excuse,
but it is. It shakes me a little bit because

(45:17):
it makes me realize that I just want to be
enraged with these people. I just want to be angry,
but ultimately that anger doesn't necessarily get you anywhere. You
can be angry, and that can motivate you toward doing something,

(45:39):
but it just gets you toward the doing something, and
it's the doing something that's actually helpful. And over the
past decade, I have found myself just being mired in
my anger and I do my best within what's available
to me to do, but I am wanting to do

(46:08):
more to get out of the place where I'm just
angry all the time and start trying to like meet
people where they are with the information they are working with,
and not just wall myself off. Because it's really becoming

(46:28):
clear to me there is a campaign to split us up.
There is a very careful orchestrated attempt to split us apart,
and I'm starting to feel like a chump, you know.
I'm starting to feel like I've played into that without intent.

(46:51):
With the best of intentions, I was trying to defend
people that were at risk, but I think I have
been part of this machine that is just supposed to
split us away from one another and keep us from
seeing each other as full human beings. So anyway, this attorney,

(47:15):
when she comes in and she's angry, and she is
informative and then presents an action plan. This is the
energy that I want to start carrying of, Like I
am pissed, you are lying. We know it. Here are
the facts, but here's what we can do. The difficulty

(47:36):
is there are people that are going to not care
about facts. There are going to be people that operate
in a fake world that is just in their own head.
And we have seen how little actual evidence and data

(47:56):
affects certain groups. And that's the part that I find
really worrying, because I could see this person coming into
a hospital today and being utterly ignored despite how armed
she is with information. The only thing that might help
is the threat of a lawsuit. But the actual facts,

(48:19):
I'm not sure how much that would matter. It's just
the threat of a lawsuit that I think would carry wade.
And I think that's a real departure from the way
things used to work, where data was treated with more respect.
Now doubt is thrown on the sourcing of everything to
make it so that nobody believes data, and that's really

(48:41):
difficult to fight, you know. Sorry, Ashley in in the
chat says, I hear that the Epstein stuff is changing
the minds for a lot of the Trump Republicans. That
hasn't helped with them. No, it's weird because Ashley and
you are career. A lot of people are turning on

(49:03):
Trump for pretending that there's no list and that, you know,
I find it almost inconceivable that anybody is surprised by
this because it's just so it was so obvious to
me from the start that he was directly involved that
it's really difficult for me to wrap my head around
the fact that this is what's making you upset, like

(49:25):
you're we have literal concentration camps. People who are citizens
even are being like grabbed up on the streets. But
that's nothing. It's this list that's the deal breaker. But
I'll take what I can get. If something is causing
everybody to wake up and realize that this man isn't

(49:46):
what he thought they that he was, I'll take it.
It's just, uh, it's really difficult for me to understand it,
really I you know, there's a there's a again. I
keep using the word disconnect, but like, I don't know
what else to call it. You know, So he is

(50:07):
losing allies over that. I just don't really know what
that's going to do ultimately, And I'm sort of sitting
on the sidelines watching everybody who had been on his
side slowly turn on him and wondering how many people,
Like how crucial will the players be who finally turn

(50:29):
on him? Will that spell the end of all of this?
I fucking hope so, but I don't know. So anyway, Okay,
we have Colin finally being greeted by his mother, who says, like,
we are going to take you to London saw all

(50:49):
these people. We're gonna get you to some experts who
know what the fuck is going on. And so we
have a lovely transition, despite the fact that Colin is
declining in health and is clearly doing worse, the difference
between him being isolated in this bare room with not

(51:11):
even a working toilet he just has to use this
commode that's sitting against the wall in full view of
everybody and is physically locked in. Also, we transition then
to a cozy hospital room where his bed is wrapped
in tinsel, there's decorations, his loved ones are gathered close

(51:33):
around the bed and chit chatting with him, and it's
just such a markedly different ambiance, you know, and it
feels like, as much as this is a complete tragedy,
at least he didn't die alone. At least it wasn't

(51:54):
the way it was with Henry. At least he has
a mother who isn't so ashamed of him that she's
going to pretend he never existed. And he has friends
that are educated enough to know it's safe to touch
him and be around him. So it's a strange sort

(52:17):
of combination of emotions in the scene because you are
watching him grow more pale and listless and disconnected from
the actual world around him because he's essentially experiencing dementia,
and all of that is bleak and terrible, But then

(52:38):
there is a warmth because of the people who are
gathered around him that makes it feel like beautiful as well.
You know that if you're gonna go at least it
was like this. And there's a really really awful scene

(53:00):
where it's his mom on one side, and then Jill
brings in Richie and Colin, who has completely lost the plot,
is talking to Richie at first just about how he
used to fancy him, or that he has fancied him
for a long time. It doesn't even feel like it's
past time. He's basically saying, I still do, and talks

(53:24):
then in more detail about sex, like him looking sexy
getting out of the shower, and then talks about how
when he would see him, he would go into his
room and jerk off, and then he starts jerking off
right in front of them because he's like not understanding
what is happening, and they're trying to like stop him,

(53:45):
but also a nurse who is aware of what's going
on ushers all of them out, and his poor mother,
she says, why does it have to be so cruel?
And that's really the question, isn't it. That's one thing
for it to kill people, but to cause this sort

(54:11):
of pain, it's a different thing. And I just can't
say enough how much I love his mother and her
whole reaction, because so many parents in this moment would
be a lot more concerned about the embarrassment of it,
and that's not it for her at all. She fully

(54:34):
knows he doesn't know what he's doing and yeah, he's queer,
and I don't fucking care. And there's this moment because
it's Ash and Jill leaving together at the end of
this night, and Ash says something about how I guess

(54:54):
we're never going to know who gave it to him,
and Jill says, I think it's important for us not
to try and find a villain, you know, like there's
nobody to blame for the way this thing works, which
is true. But as they're leaving, they pass this woman
who is like vaguely familiar. I'm looking at her, like,

(55:15):
why do I know her face? And then we get
a very helpful flashback and see that she was the
woman who was running that boarding house that Colin stayed in.
And I'm still confused because she goes she walks through,
and she's looking for somebody to help her, but there's
nobody at the desk because it's pretty late, and she
walks right past Colin's room, so I was sort of like,

(55:37):
is she here to see him? But she doesn't know
what Roomy's in. And then you hear excuse me her
talking to a nurse as she is led into a
different room, and we don't actually see her son in
the room, but we see her disappearing into the room
with the nurse saying, my son is a normal man.

(56:00):
He's not one of those filthy, dirty queers. And the
filthy dirty thing just comes up tons this episode, the
equating of having this disease with being dirty. Somehow, it's
just inseparable from each other. And I just think about

(56:22):
what it must be like for that kid, because he
is a kid, like, let's be honest, versus what it
is like for Colin in his final moments. His mother
is by his side the entire time his friends are
coming to visit, really really often, everyone who is around

(56:45):
him accepts who he is, knows who he is, and
simply wants to be there for him. And then there's
this guy who was so consumed with self loathing that
he's like calling him names while fucking him. And then
his mother comes in saying he's not one of those filthy,

(57:07):
dirty little Like what is his mother going to do?
And she finds out that he does have this disease,
I have to assume she's going to disown him, and
how devastating that is, Like it just ugh bigotry. Is
at the root of so much suffering and so much cruelty.

(57:31):
And we move forward as a species in so many ways,
but there always is a new thing that we can
be bigoted about. You know. We just fucking managed to
find another way to feel superior to other people. And
it's just I can't wait for us to run out.

(57:55):
I don't know when it'll be, but I hope someday.
So then we finally have the moment where Jill gets
a call and it's the hit. They didn't even have
a phone in the house. So there's a scene with
Richie where he is worried that he has AIDS but

(58:20):
he hasn't gotten his test results yet, and he calls
home clearly for a little bit of comfort. His father
just like barks into the phone how he doesn't have
a real job, and I was appreciated at least that
his wife is like what the fuck, dude, But what
he eventually asks for is like, can you help us

(58:40):
with the money to get a phone installed, which they
clearly have like a very I don't want to say
like really strained relationship, because it's not as bad as
it could be, but like him calling not on a weekend,
not on a certain schedule. He is not a kid

(59:01):
who's just being like, Hey, just wanted to call you
because I miss you, Like they're not close like that.
And at the end of the convo, she seems relieved
that he's asking for something specific because otherwise, why are
you calling? What is this? And he seems to feel
like he has to ask for something because he can
sense that she doesn't get what's going on. And when

(59:23):
he finally says I love you, she doesn't even say
it back. She looks at the phone like who's that
talking to me before she hangs up, so it's just like, ugh,
it's rough, and they get the phone installed. Richie gets
a h what do you call it? Not a callback?

(59:45):
He gets a role that he had auditioned for, because
we see him doing a bunch of auditions throughout the episode.
And when he meets with the woman who is going
to be producing this show or I don't know her
role actually maybe she's just the cast director, but she
tells him you were our second choice. We actually wanted

(01:00:06):
your friend Donald, but he's gone home. A lot of
boys are going home lately and we don't see them again.
Don't you go home? And I really want him to
get his fucking test results. My god, you know it's

(01:00:27):
a This sounds like the lesion that was on his
back was what it looked like. But yeah, So the
phone call that they get from Colin's mom, it's like
they wouldn't have been able to get this call in
the middle of the night until recently. And Jill, you know,

(01:00:47):
they know it's coming, but Jill just collapses. This is
some really good acting, the way that she just kind
of curls in on herself, and it's that silent sob
that happens when you're just trying to get air into
your lungs because you can't breathe because this has hit

(01:01:11):
you in your solar plexus. And everybody gathers around her
except Richie, who is holding himself apart from the group,
and I hate it. I hate it. There's a moment
later or earlier where she's talking to them about you know,

(01:01:34):
I know that Colin is going to die, and I've
been trying to set up how we're going to deal
with his body, and there are like very few people
willing to deal with embalming or what do you call it,
cremation because of the possibility of infection, and so like

(01:01:59):
this one dude she has gone to for the deaths
of like sisters and her grandmother and her mother, this
dude does not want to help her, and she winds
up having to go out of her city to somebody else.
And even this guy basically is like, I can cremate him,
but it has to be at the very end of
the day, and he has to be the last one

(01:02:20):
because I don't want the potential for cross contamination, which
I'm not even sure how realistic that is as a threat,
but people are going to have the standards they have,
I guess. And it hadn't occurred to me like even
dealing with the corpse would be an issue because I
was thinking the corpse would be handled by the hospital,

(01:02:42):
but I've never had to deal with this stuff. And
the hospital just holds the body and hands it off
to somebody else to actually do the preparation of the
body for in whatever way they want, and then the burial.
So yeah, just like another headache on top of everything.
You know, you've lost your son and that's devastating, and

(01:03:03):
now nobody wants to help you bury him. Mike yikes.
So yeah, it's a super sad episode. This sucked. I'm
gonna miss Colin so much. I hate this. Ugh, I
gotta wrap up. Thank you guys for listening, Ashley in

(01:03:25):
I hate you, and until next time to lou motherfuckers.

(01:03:58):
That was an unspoil mailed Network podcast