July 25, 2025 • 62 mins
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Thank you to Ashleigh for commissioning this episode!
This is the one where we find out finally that Ritchie has tested positive, and he has to figure out how he's going to cope with the knowledge. Meanwhile Jill is organizing a protest, and Roscoe is pissing in Margaret Thatcher's coffee. Bless him.
Thanks so much for listening, and I will see you soon with a new episode!
Wanna talk spoilers? Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/rEF2KfZxfV
Thank you to Ashleigh for commissioning this episode!
This is the one where we find out finally that Ritchie has tested positive, and he has to figure out how he's going to cope with the knowledge. Meanwhile Jill is organizing a protest, and Roscoe is pissing in Margaret Thatcher's coffee. Bless him.
Thanks so much for listening, and I will see you soon with a new episode!
Wanna talk spoilers? Join the Discord! https://discord.gg/rEF2KfZxfV
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is an unspoiled network podcast. This is spoil Me
covering It's a Sin Season one, episode four. In this episode,
we find out that indeed Richie does have AIDS and
(00:29):
he has a much better outlook than I probably would
have in his shoes. It's interesting to see his viewpoints
on a lot of things in this episode. Welcome to
(01:04):
the show everyone, I am Natasha. Thank you very much
to Ashley for commissioning this episode. Ashley is here in
the chat. I had earlier asked whether she preferred Ashley
or Ashley Anne, and she just wrote, I work in
a call center. At this point, there's very little anyone
could call me that it annoyed me. It is. It's
(01:27):
like being on the phone is almost as bad as
being like online, where people just really feel like they
can be However, to you, you know, it's a whole
other world doing phone customer service stuff. And I only
did it for a very short time, and I'm glad
(01:48):
because I didn't care for that shit at all anyway.
So this episode, it's who It's a lot of ah,
what's the word I want here? There's I'm pleasantly surprised
(02:11):
at the complexity of Richie's character. There's like parts of
him that I really like and that I really relate to.
There are parts of him that I don't get at all.
There are parts of him that I am so surprised,
(02:32):
but I also have to sort of step back and
be like, wow, I guess I see how this could happen,
and all of this in total for this episode, it's
shocking to me that this was filmed before the pandemic happened,
(02:53):
because the way different themes aligne it just goes to
show how disconnected straight people were from the aid's crisis
and what was happening. Because if they hadn't been, I
feel like the way people reacted to COVID would not
(03:14):
have come as as much of a surprise. It's just
so wild. The weird shit that we decide is going
to be like our focus or the bizarre kinds of
stories that we are going to tell ourselves or circulate about,
(03:34):
like what helps and what doesn't. And there are some
other things that happened during this episode that precede the
montage that we get with him later, but I want
to talk about it really quickly. The phone call that
he makes to somebody asking and it's like one of
(03:55):
those anonymous helplines, and he's asking about things that could
poss simply help either keep you from getting AIDS or
keep HIV from turning into AIDS. It's sort of unclear.
I'm not even sure he really knows which one he's asking,
But you know, we see in the beginning of the
(04:17):
episode that he's taking all of these different supplements. You know,
he's doing various things that are overall often just a
good idea for your health, but are not going to
prevent or cure any disease. And later on when he
is on the phone, he like asks about drinking battery
(04:40):
acid and drinking his own urine and if this The
battery acid thing did not come up as far as
I know, during COVID, but there was that weird drug
that was meant for like livestock, that a bunch of
people were swearing was going to prevent COVID. I can't
(05:03):
even remember what it was called, but there was like
a rash of conspiracies and weird ideas online surrounding that,
and sales of it went up for a little while.
And the urine thing absolutely was circulating during COVID. There
were a variety of uses. You could drink your own urine,
(05:25):
you could bathe in your own urine, and like some
people would age their urine in jars and then mix
it into food by the tablespoon, just like the kinds
of things that you could like. Even if it did work,
(05:46):
even if there was science proving this works, I don't
know if you could get me to do it, never mind.
Just a friend of mine said, you know, or the
yoga teacher at the place I go know I Ashley says,
how does anyone have enough of their own urine on
hand to bathe? And you're thinking about like a shower
(06:09):
or a bathtubful, But what they would do is a
bird bath kind of situation where they would have it
in a jar and they would dunk a rag in
it and rub it all over themselves and not shower
it off afterwards. By the way, So I would see
(06:30):
posts occasionally that were like screenshots from other groups that
were being shared, and you know how this is. Who
knows if these were like real, But there were people
who were insisting on doing this and then surprised when
loved ones didn't want to be around them because they
stank horrifically and yeah, this is just like the it's
(06:55):
so bizarre to me in general, the weird pipeline that
goes from being somebody who is like interested in natural
remedies and body care to being a full blown blown
(07:17):
paranoid conspiracy theorist slash white supremacist. But that pipeline is
very real, and COVID very much revealed it in a
way that was undeniable and obviously grew tied in with
vaccines and being anti vaccine. And I still I wonder
(07:45):
to this day about how we're going to fight, like
how the future is going to look because so many
people have decided not to vaccinate their kids. We've already
seen the uprising of different diseases that had been almost
unheard of up until the last like ten years. You know,
(08:08):
we have like measles outbreaks and stuff where we haven't
dealt with that in a while in any real way.
And I just wonder if this is going to be
something that like after another decade or so, is going
to fade out or is it going to persist and
(08:30):
more and more people are going to refuse to vaccinate
and it's going to there's going to be a resurgence
of many bigger problems. But anyway, I'm just, you know,
going off on a little bit of a tangent here
because the things that Richie is trying and he is
refusing to get a test, and this person on the
phone is desperately you can hear how agonized they are
(08:52):
that he is trying these things. He's clearly asking because
he's intending to do them, and he hasn't and tested
and it is too afraid to do it. We know
he's gotten tested and didn't get his results, but to
the person on the phone, like that equates to not
having been tested. And the overall awareness of the AIDS
(09:18):
epidemic is going up to the public in general, because
we start off this episode with an ad about It's
like I want to say it's about AIDS, and it is,
but it's so bizarre. It definitely is an actual ad,
(09:39):
Like you can tell they picked out something that had
been on the air and they are putting it up
for us to see. But it says like, if you
ignore AIDS, it could be the death of you, so
don't die in ignorance. And Richie's watching this and saying,
like my mom is watching this chance right now, like
(10:02):
he's worried about her even knowing that this is something
that's going on, and then we like jump to his family.
We smash cut to them and it's her and her
husband watching the television and his dad just clicked off
it to a game show and they barely even paid
any attention to it. So it's sort of an interesting
(10:23):
moment because he's clearly worried that this is going to
be something and they don't even see it as at
all relevant. They have no reaction whatsoever. So yeah, it's
just like the first of multiple moments in this episode
(10:46):
where we see him starting to reveal how he feels
regarding being more public about his sexuality and the way
that others behave with it as well. So we then
(11:08):
go to a funeral service and I don't remember the
name of the person that this is for. I'm so sorry,
but the guy this is so I know that this
is a thing that happens, I don't. I'm trying to
(11:33):
think if I've ever been to a funeral where they
did this. I'm sure I must have. But the way
this is done is that there is a reverend vicar,
perhaps you would say, who is talking about this guy?
(11:54):
Even though he clearly like didn't know him. And I
have heard that this is something that you run into
sometimes his name is Nick Jacobs, okay, where a person
is being put to rest by somebody in charge of
the service who didn't even know who that person was.
(12:16):
And sometimes they ask about the person they're burying ahead
of time and they get some information together, which is
clearly the case here, But sometimes they barely even do that.
And I have like seen fiction, granted, where it's very
(12:37):
clear that they didn't do the bare minimum and are
just saying a bunch of platitudes that really aren't even
true about this person, or they mispronounce their name, or
you know, this sort of thing, And I always find
it so weird because I guess that the point of
this sort of thing is when somebody is part of,
(12:57):
oftentimes like an organized religion, they feel like a person
of authority in that religion needs to be in charge
of the burial. And oh, Nick is the boyfriend, says Ashley,
(13:18):
boyfriend to Nicholas. Uh so, wait, he says, he stands up,
and I'm saying he was his boyfriend to Nick Jacobs
for six years. That's him talking about himself. I see
I'm okay, my bad. I'm trying to find the spot
where they say his name, and I'm sure it's at
the beginning of the thing, but now I don't even
want to. He says, Nick isn't even here because you
(13:39):
banned him. Oh my god, I thought he was talking
about himself. I didn't realize that his boyfriend isn't in
the church. I misunderstood. I totally like the way that
they started talking was like, oh, you banned him. I
thought it was them saying like, we're here anyway. But
now that I'm watching this again, I'm realizing talking on
(14:00):
behalf of somebody who isn't actually physically here. Okay, my bad,
but yeah, this, uh, Peter, thank you, Ashley. Ashley got
the transcript. I need to start finding out where to
find transcripts for shows. A lot of what I do
would be easier, And Ashley is not the first person
(14:20):
to do this, and I am always surprised to realize
that there are transcripts out there, even though this has
happened more than once. I have been doing this for
like thirteen years. I should be more on my shit anyway. Okay,
So this results in a confrontation where they are yelling
(14:44):
at his mother about how you have banned the person
who loved him most from coming to the funeral, and
Richie outside is saying, I just think it's really inappropriate
to have a go at her right now. His mother
is devastated. Now, I just I really want to be
(15:09):
so clear that I am not trying to be judgy
at all about Richie's reaction here. This is me being
fascinated a little bit, because, honestly, you guys, it has
(15:29):
never occurred to me that there was going to be
any gay person out there who had a different feeling
on how pursuing gay rights and representation. It's like wild
to me that it never occurred to me everybody wasn't
(15:51):
going to be loud and proud and ready to be
sort of in your face about it. I know that
there were people who are who were like very much
in the cult and that they kept it to but
I always consider that as like a matter of safety
rather than a matter of genuinely believing we shouldn't be
doing whatever for reasons of etiquette and manners. Do you
(16:17):
know what I'm saying? Like, I just always thought that
anybody who was a lot more conservative overall, they were
simply trying to save themselves the trouble of dealing with
bigots or being in physical danger or whatever. And so
it's the first moment in this episode that I'm like, oh, wow,
(16:43):
Richie's got a completely different attitude than I was expecting,
especially considering how I'm trying to think of the word here.
Richie is so active in the gay scene that the
(17:06):
idea of him wanting to be more reticent in situations
like this, I mean with his own family, sure, but here,
I just didn't expect this attitude from him at all.
He has seemed to be loud and proud as much
as he is allowed to be with his job, you know,
(17:29):
so in a circumstance where he doesn't what's how I'm
trying to think about there, he doesn't have any personal
stake in what's going on here. There's no danger to
his career or in you know, regard to his family
finding out or anything like this. I kind of expected
(17:51):
him to have a similar attitude as Roscoe, where Roscoe
is standing back, grinning and like loving the messiness of
this and loving the confrontational quality of this. Because Roscoe
is somebody who has a lot of anger, and every
time somebody decides that they are going to take a
stand about some bullshit, Roscoe is fucking here for it,
(18:13):
which I totally get. I just kind of expected Richie
to be the same way. And when you step back
and look at it, the way that Richie has been
raised himself, and how comfortable and lacking in confrontation he
has been a lot of his life, it does sort
(18:34):
of follow I guess, you know, just this idea of
like how there are there's a lot of there's a
lot of weird respectability politics built into all kinds of
different identities and a sense of like when it's appropriate
(18:56):
to behave this way versus that way. And this happens
later on they're talking about this job that Ash gets
where he has to like go through a bunch of
literature to find anything that has like a mention of
a gay lifestyle in order to weed it out. And
(19:20):
when the conversation turns to everybody's like attitudes about this,
of course they all feel this is outrageous, except for Richie,
who is like, somebody wrote a story about there being
two dads for like a five year old, and I
just think that's wrong, And It's so bizarre to me
(19:47):
because it's like, I don't think Richie has any shame
about being gay, really, I don't. I think if it
were safe for him to come out, he would in
a more public way except for his family maybe, But
(20:08):
that attitude I can't help but link to shame, and
I just people are complicated, and I think maybe he
just does a really good job of pretending he doesn't
have shame around this in a fake it till you
make it kind of way, because this is how many
of us try and sort of like get ahead of
(20:29):
the abuse that we might take from other people. Is
we behave very aggressively as if it's super duper not
a problem, and hopefully if we are handling it this way,
then nobody else is going to make an issue out
of it, or we can make a joke out of it,
you know whatever. So anyway, I just I liked this
(20:53):
characterization because it's layered and it is It's like, I'm sorry,
Ashley's in the chat says considering the trans people these
days who are happy enough to be right wing puppets
against other trans people, I personally didn't find it too surprising.
I guess, like you're right, Ashley, but I just forget
those people exist too. It's just so like the cognitive
(21:16):
dissonance there is so profound that I just and like
delete them from my mental rolodex because I'm just like,
you don't, you don't make any sense. Sorry. You know
Section twenty eight very famous legislation preventing homosexuality from being
promoted on TV or taught in schools. Teachers could literally
(21:36):
be fired just for being discovered to be gay. It
was only repealed in two thousand and three, which is definitely.
There's a teacher that I had in eighth grade, I think,
or no, sixth grade that looking back now, I know
that man was gay. I absolutely there's no doubt whatsoever
in my mind. And there were so many clues but
(21:57):
I of course, when I was younger, I was taught
from a very young age that gay people existed and
it was fine, but I still didn't assume almost anybody
was gay when I first met them. When I was
told they were gay, I was like, oh, okay. My
aunt had a lot of gay friends. She lived in
(22:18):
San Francisco, so she had a couple of really close
gay friends that I actually got to know quite well,
one of whom was HIV positive and they were long
term partners. They've been together for like twenty years, and
they just you know, were really careful and existed with that.
And then my mom, because she was like pagan and
(22:40):
you know, looking into communities and stuff in the neighborhood,
she would meet a lot of lesbians. So my mom
had a lot of gay friends. And so I got
very much like exposed to all different kinds of sexualities
from a really young age. And then when I went
into high school, I joined theater, and you know, it's
(23:03):
like the fucking haven for queer kids in school. That's
where they fucking go almost every time. And I was
surrounded by queer kids in high school as well. So
I've always been like, I've always had friends who were
some flavor of queer, but I really wasn't walking around
(23:27):
expecting people to be queer out of the gate the
way that I sort of do now where until you
tell me you're not, I kind of like assume everyone
is in a way that's usually more interesting. Actually it's
a more fun way to like view the world. But
it's certainly a change in my headspace because I feel
(23:53):
like understandably, growing up during the eighties and nineties, straightness
was as the default, and so that was how I thought,
And that's just not really the way that I think anymore.
So anyway, anyway, this I'm gonna finish what's going on
(24:13):
with Ritchie. He is still trying to ignore everything that
is going on with him, And he gets a part
in a Doctor Who episode. He's like up against the
Daleks in this Oh my god, you guys, it's something.
And he gets a lighting check from somebody who is
(24:39):
like doing that thing where they are using a meter
to see the light and then they're holding their hand
next to his and they're trying to gauge his complexion
and how to look on camera, I guess. And this
guy says to him, there's something wrong with your skin,
which is honestly just a crazy thing to say to someone.
(25:01):
Like it turns out he's right, but it's just, I mean,
it's one thing to be like, you're looking a little
pale today, or you need to hydrate or you know,
like whatever, but to just be like, there's something wrong
with your skin, I mean what And Ritchie, who has
(25:22):
been trying to run from this the whole time, gets
this look out his face, like, oh God, if there's
something visible, then I really don't think I can hide
from this anymore. Ashley says this was specifically a tribute
to Dursley Linden, who appeared in the nineteen eighty eight
(25:44):
episode Remembrance of the Daleks. He was a gay man
who did pass from aids Ah, Ashley, I really appreciate
you giving me all these little tidbits. This is really interesting,
well pouring out for Durstling. I hate that his name
is Dursley because I just associate that now with the
Dursleys from Harry Potter. But that's not his fault. So
(26:10):
Richie finally goes and gets tested and he is positive,
and we pretty much smash cut, like he talks to
this this woman who is trying to tell him there
are treatments in YadA YadA, and he essentially interrupts her
to be like, look, I am in a household full
(26:32):
of people who talk about this all day. This is
all we talk about. I know what my options are,
and I also know that it's a death sentence. And
we smash cut from there to him at home making
dinner for everybody, and it's so funny because he has
like cut up some steaks, and like, as soon as
he says I found the steaks and cut him up,
(26:53):
I was like, oh, honey, why would you do that
to some nice steaks? And then his mother is like, uh, okay,
well you know those kind of stakes are different from casseroles,
but okay, sure, sure, sure sure. She's really trying to
do her best to be grateful that he is making
food rather than but it is painful when somebody uses
a certain kind of meat for a thing that it's
(27:14):
not meant for, because it will often turn out not great.
So he is making this meal, and I don't know
if his intention was to tell them that he was
ill at dinner or if he was intending to at
(27:34):
least come out. It felt like he was really working
up to something. And as he's cooking, we get the
arrival of each member of his family and their reaction
to him. So his sister comes home and just says,
now it's going to be all about you and is
(27:55):
super mad that he is at home at all and
storms upstairs. This was fascinating to me because she obviously
has had an issue with him, and I couldn't figure
out what it was, and I was wondering if it
was that she was like thinking that he was gay
but that he hadn't come out, and if she had
contempt for him over that or what. But now I'm
(28:19):
seeing that it's just like there's a favorite child situation happening.
He's clearly the one that his parents, like she perceives
at least, they pour all their energy into him, which
I know not from personal experience but secondhand experience with
my girl friends who had brothers. This is not unusual. Unfortunately,
(28:44):
male children get prioritized a lot in certain cultures, Spanish cultures,
like you know, on my dad's side, his family being Colombian,
it's very patriarchal, and Italian families as well. It was
like the girls were literally servants to the male children.
(29:06):
It was so gross to watch. It was so gross
to watch. So anyway, this whole dynamic is odd. His mother,
like I said, comes in and later on is just
delighted that she didn't have to cook, and his dad
comes in, throws him like a meager compliment about somebody
seeing him in a play and saying that he was good.
(29:29):
But he cannot resist following that up with like you
only have like five lines though, and don't you not
get paid much if it's only five lines? So you're
gonna have to get bigger parts, which, you know, it's
a weird thing where I'm like, on the one hand,
at least his dad isn't telling him to be a lawyer. Still,
he's pretty much seemed to accept that Richie's going to
(29:51):
do acting now. But also he just can't just be encouraging,
you know. I'm sure he thinks that he's been encouraging. Yeah,
I'm telling him to get bigger parts. I'm telling him
to do more of this. Yeah, bruh, that's not what
it sounds like though, sorry Ashley is saying. I think so,
(30:15):
given it comes off the back of the doctor asking
whether he is any family he can be with. Same here,
My nanny had to drop out of school at eleven
slash twelve to look after her little siblings. This is
what I'm talking about. It's crazy, you guys, the way
that we treat women and girls. I know I talk
(30:39):
about this a lot, but even still, as somebody hyper
aware of this, there are still so many situations that
come up where I'm genuinely shocked. For a moment that
a thing happened a certain way, and I'll have to
be like, but why, and then somebody has to remind
(30:59):
me because sexism, and I'm like, oh my god, really
that's what was going on here, And it's like, it's
just it's so idiotic. It's like racism. It's like homophobia,
where the bigot tree is so stupid that I just
dismiss it because that wouldn't make any sense. Of course
(31:21):
it doesn't. That's the point of bigotry. It's not based
in fact. That's what the way it works. But I
just it's difficult to wrap my mind around. Sometimes my
nanny wasn't even the eldest she was just the eldest girl.
That's exactly it. You have to be the oldest girl.
(31:42):
But the boys like the eldest boy. It can go
either way, and oftentimes this really depends on whether the
parents are present in a real way or if they
are neglectful, a lot of times resulting because of drug
use or alcoholism or whatever. And sometimes the eldest boy
(32:03):
will step up because he feels like now he has
to be men of the house. But if both parents
are very much engaged in raising them and are not
dealing with that sort of issue, then the eldest boy
will be the most pampered and the like, they will
have the highest hopes for him in some sense. You know,
she was one of twenty two, so help, that is
(32:26):
so bonkers, Ashley. Uh, my dad had seven brothers and
eight sisters, and that I always felt like was just
too much. But twenty two is straight up insanity. I mean,
how did that woman like not die before giving birth
(32:48):
to that many kids. My dad's mom wound up having
some degenerative bone disease because she had had so many
children that they had leached the calcium right out of
her body. And she was, you know, living in Colombia
and in incredible poverty, so it wasn't like she was
getting prenatal vitamins and stuff. And yeah, it did not
(33:09):
end well for her. She was in a lot of
pain at the end. And I think about all the time,
just the way that we act as if childbirth isn't
dangerous anymore, and it's like, you don't ugh anyway, they
didn't all survive childhood. But yeah, yeah, So Richie sets
(33:29):
to the table and then he chickens out and he
grabs the table, setting that was going to be for
his seat, and he says that he's going to go
out to a bar and meet a friend, and his
dad gets really mad at him and is just like,
you need to sit and have dinner with your mom.
(33:51):
What the fuck, and is disgusted with him. Obviously, there's
just this sense of like him knowing that his wife
is disappointed and trying to do this on her behalf,
which I can't help but like appreciate even though he's
(34:12):
a bastard in so many ways. And let's see. He says,
you can stop and have tea with us. Your silly
little friends can wait, stop racing off and give us
twenty minutes for your mother's sake. And Richie says, yeah,
well you can fuck off, and I love. His sister
is standing on the stairs having just heard him say that,
(34:34):
and she looks so delighted. There's just a vibe of like, one,
probably she's wanted to say that to her dad a
million times, and two Richie maybe has fallen out of
favor because now he has said something that he can't
take back from his kids. So oh sorry. Ashley says,
he doesn't want to use the table where that they'll
(34:55):
all be touching, do you think, because I thought of
that at the moment, But he set the table and
he leaves their table where So I was sort of like,
(35:16):
because what else he could wash his own dishes and
then it would be no issue if it's just about
ones that he's actually physically eaten off of. I don't know.
Maybe he's worried that, like he won't get the chance
to wash his own dishes, that his mother will insist
or something, because like the way he looks at the dishes.
(35:36):
I kind of thought that myself, Ashley, but then I
couldn't make sense of that in the context of everything.
I think it's the mug all over again. But that's
what I mean, is like he's touched everything that he's
taken out, and he's set the table for everybody, hasn't he,
(35:57):
So I mean he could to the food if he's
worried about that. It feels like that ship sailed. I
don't know, I mean, maybe that is it. It just
it felt to me like he he is in this
house and he has touched a lot, including the food
they're about to eat heat prepared. So it just seems
(36:17):
like if that was the concern, I'd expect him to
dump all the food in the trash and take all
of the dishes off the table, but he only takes
his place setting away. So it doesn't like it doesn't
feel like it matches, you know, I don't know, maybe,
but it doesn't really matter his motivation because in the
(36:40):
end he goes to this pub called the Farmer's Arms,
I think, and there is a guy here that we
find out later he has fancied since high school. And
it is the weirdest. It's clearly like what he's thinking
here is I'm about to die and I'm going to
(37:04):
make the most of it right before I go and
hook up with this one guy that I was like
obsessed with the whole time that I was in high school.
And on one hand, I see why you'd be like this,
you know, with a person that like you never got
(37:24):
the chance with. But on the other hand, when you
know that you are infected, the idea that you're going
to maybe try and hook up with this person is
so irresponsible and pretty much evil in my opinion, the
(37:45):
way that this could go wrong if you are not
as incredibly careful as you could be, which maybe he
would be. But it just feels like, when you are
not informing that person and they know the risk they're taking,
that is so fucked up. And he doesn't make the
move to do this, but it really the sense in
the scene is that if this guy had acted more interested,
(38:11):
he likely would have. But Richie is telling him how
he had a crush on him, and I was, honestly,
later on, this guy says, you need to be careful
with the way you talk, because I was starting to
get really worried about Richie, and I was sort of like,
is he hoping that this guy will beat the shit
(38:35):
out of him? Like is he courting getting killed in
another way than dying slowly of aids, Because he's just like, like,
you know, suffering from this sort of fatalism and wanting
to set this guy off. I really thought maybe he
(38:58):
was purposely attempting to wind this guy up. Sorry, Astley
says that I'm breaking up. I'm sorry, Ashley. It seems
fine for my end, so I don't know. But he
keeps pushing it. He keeps talking about how often he
(39:20):
would like jerk off to him. And then this girl
that said that they had hooked up and described it
to Richie and how Richie would like jerk off to
that specifically all the time, and he just gets really
aggressive with it, so that this guy has to kind
of bite his head off and be like stop it.
(39:40):
He says stop a few times, and Richie just keeps talking,
and finally dude is like, Okay, that's enough, we should
just go. And the fact that he doesn't just leave
Richie there and is willing to drive him home. I
was really that more than Richie deserved, considering how weird
(40:03):
he's being here. I was just thinking about what it
is like as a woman when a man just insists
on telling you that they jerk off to you, which
I have had happen many times, and it is always like,
clearly they're trying to get it so that you will
sleep with them, but the way that they think that's
going to happen, it's sort of like what did you
(40:25):
expect me to say? Or like, you know, they have
it in their head that things are going to play
out like a porno, I guess, and that you'll be like, oh,
really did it look like this, you know, and blah
blah blah. And I'm assuming that's kind of what Richie
is hoping here, is that this guy is going to
(40:48):
get turned on by Richie describing himself jerking off, but
it goes much the way it does with women who
get this sort of unwelcome attention, where he's just freaked
out and feeling vaguely threatened. And so he gets Richie
(41:10):
in the car and they are heading back and he
tries to say he says something about how like you're
not going to be around here anymore, and Richie, of course,
all things considered, is sort of looking at him like,
oh my god, why does he think? Does he know?
And then he says, you're going to be too posh
for us, You're going to be really famous. And Richie
(41:34):
has a moment of real despair here where he says,
I should have been I would have loved that, but
it's not going to happen. I'm just not going to
get the chance to be anything. It's never going to happen.
And earlier he had described this dance class that he
(41:58):
took that he was in ballet, because he, you know,
is in school for this. And when he gets out,
he stands in the headlights and he does some ballet,
and my god, this kid can move. He is he
has such long slender fingers as well, that every movement
(42:23):
is graceful in a way that is like beyond belief.
I was he's in jeans and like a denim shearling jacket,
clothing that being graceful in doesn't look graceful usually, and
(42:46):
the way he extends his hand, it's beautiful. I was
like so choked up during this scene and he's He'm like,
a big part of me is like I really want
them to find a real and to make him dance
again in this show, because I think he would be incredible.
(43:06):
But yeah, he does this, and he does a few
movements and then just takes off, and it's just such
an odd scene because he comes on to this guy
so hard, but then he has this like breakdown, but
he doesn't tell him about being infected. But it's like,
you know, I'm guessing that this guy is starting to
(43:28):
assume that, but I don't know, and considering the whole
like attitude that he has had throughout this episode about
what's appropriate and what isn't, this outburst with this guy
just feels really like this isn't who you've been What's happening?
(43:52):
And then at the end of the episode spoilers he
winds up jumping on a CoP's back to get him
off of Jill. And one, he had been afraid of
showing up to these things and being outed because then
he wouldn't get work. But two, I just don't think
(44:12):
prediagnosis Richie would have taken this sort of risk. And
there's a part of me that rejoices that he is
casting off those restraints. And yeah, it's just a great moment.
So we'll back up and we'll talk about Roscoe because
(44:32):
he's got a little bit more of a focus this episode. Naturally,
this is something that's going to happen because now Colin
has been taken out of the equation, we have more
room for other characters to really be featured in things.
So there's a meal where Jill's parents come and they
(44:55):
are delightful. I'm trying to remember what I know the
man from and he is fine as hell, and her
parents are just very staunch allies, and they wind up
showing up for the march and everything and it is
just great. But Roscoe prances in on his way to
(45:19):
go and see this MP. Is that the title that
this guy has? And they make a few jokes about
him being basically a sex worker. But he is going
off to this dinner day and he's in a very
stead suit. He's seated at this table. First, there's nobody
(45:42):
else there yet, and a part of me was sort
of like, what is going to happen here? But then
these other guys wind up coming in who are also
it seems like representatives, and they each also have one
of their perhaps boyfriend perhaps aids, Oh my god, not
(46:03):
that Aid. You know what I'm talking about, like an
assistant Jesus Christ, Natasha, you get what I'm talking about.
So this whole scene, I was expecting it to be
that they were that he was like going to connect
(46:23):
with one of these other young men, and it doesn't
happen now, it might come up later because we get
a good look at them, and I can't help but
think that's for a reason that maybe the show is
letting us see them so that later on, if we
run into one of them, we will have another we'll
(46:45):
have like a frame of reference. But yeah, this is
a like very surprising moment to me. I was just
not expecting this man to take him out in public
with him the way that he does later on, when
he's talking about needing more colored as he puts it
(47:07):
faces in this audience. I was like, Oh, I see
this is like an optics thing in a different way
than I was expecting. But at first I never would
have thought that he would be seen out with Roscoe
like this. Oh my god, sorry, uh, Ashley says in
(47:33):
the chat, we got to meet the real Jill this episode.
It's Jill who wrote the memoir. She plays her own mother.
That is so fun. That's delightful. Also, fuck Thatcher burning
in the hottest part of hell right now, smile face. Yet,
Thatcher is one of those people that I remember being
talked about when I was little, and without any particular
(47:56):
emotion behind her name. When she came up, and then
as I got older, everything I heard about her grew
more and more angry, not as if she kept doing
wronger and wronger things, but in the way that, like
hindsight has begun to show people, she was much more
(48:20):
awful than they even realized at the time. And it
just seems like there is so she did so much
harm in so many different arenas that there are a
lot of people who have like their particular grievance against
her because of the way she harmed the community that
(48:43):
they are from, and it is remarkable how much harm
one person can do. It's one of those things that, like,
I really do believe that the majority of people on
earth want to do the right thing and be decent people,
the problem being, of course, what decent means to all
of us doesn't mean the same thing. But overall, I
feel like most people want to do the right thing,
(49:06):
but the people who don't are oftentimes able to get
into such positions of power because they don't care about
other people that they can do a disproportionate amount of damage.
And that feels like so unfair to me. You know
that the very thing that causes them to do damage
(49:28):
is what allows them to scale that ladder and get
to places where they have that kind of power. It
just feels like a really unfair setup, but that's how
it works. So, Yeah, bro is possessed with thatcher. He
keeps calling her the lady, which I'm assuming is like
(49:50):
a thing. Maybe it's just his thing, but I don't
think so. And Roscoe is obviously like enjoying the situation.
I don't think he really cares about this man at all,
But there's a feeling of like I'm making the most
of what I have while I can. And eventually there's
(50:15):
a point where there's like this event that's going to
happen and Thatcher is visiting, and he has this tea
tray that he is absolutely panicking about the impression he
is giving in every respect. He wants to switch ties
because he's wearing a school tie for a school that
she doesn't like. He doesn't want the tea to come
(50:38):
out too early because then it will look like it
was stewing, just and considering later on that we like
find out she doesn't even drink tea. Usually she drinks coffee.
I'm just sort of like really, but yeah, he is
just really fidgeting over the impression that he is going
to make. And Rosk says, oh my god, you've got
(51:02):
a boner. And he's like, well, yes, I am standing
at attention. And you know, she can cause a lot
of excitement. And Rosco's like, wait for her, you're hard
for her. And he's like, well yeah. And Rosca's like,
(51:26):
but you're gay, and he says, and I'm gonna paraphrase this,
I'm not gay. Sometimes you've got to put your face
in the shit so that you can better appreciate when
you are able to stand up and smell the flowers.
(51:53):
I mean, wow, how does a person say this to
somebody without realizing the damage they're doing? How is he
surprised at Roscoe's reaction? It is wild that he doesn't
see it coming exactly what the fuck happens? So he
(52:18):
says this to Roscoe like it's the most reasonable thing
in the world, and then he leaves and leaves Roscoe
with the tea trolley, and we see Roscoe looking at everything,
and I was sort of wondering if like it was
going to be something to the Scones or you know,
like I don't know. But later on it is revealed
(52:40):
that Roscoe pissed in the coffee, and he makes sure
to tell this man that as the trolley is rolling
toward her, which I really appreciated that extra touch of
like he has been so worried about the impression of everything,
(53:00):
and there is no way to get the trolley and
take the coffee away and get a new pot without
it being like kind of a whole production, and he
wouldn't be able to explain to anybody exactly what happened
or anything. So it's not like he's done huge damage
in general. But this guy has clearly obsessed over every
(53:22):
detail in such a way that this is a complete
calamity because he has been planning, like down to the
final minutes of meeting her, the timing of how everything
was going to go, And it's just a really petty
but effective wrench to throw in the works. And I
(53:46):
was really proud of Roscoe here as well, because you know,
I said last episode that I don't fault him at
all for just like being in a relationship where he
is getting something forgiving something. But that is a totally
different situation when somebody begins to demean you in the
way that this guy talked about him, Once you begin
(54:08):
to like allow yourself to be treated that way, it's
crossing a boundary that once you begin to accept that treatment,
there really isn't a good way to like bring it
back to a level of respect. You have got to
just walk away, because I just don't feel like you
(54:30):
can come back from that. He revealed what he really
thought of you, and there's no way for him to
say anything that would convince me he didn't mean it
exactly the way it sounded, So anyway, all of this
is happening, and Roscoe had been avoiding coming to this
(54:54):
march in order to be with this man, and I'd
really disappointed Jill, who wanted him with her. We have
then the actual march and the group that is gathering,
and they are disappointed with the turnout. They had hoped
that a lot more people would come, and they have
(55:14):
decided to stage this protest where they are going to
lay down in the street at an intersection and interrupt
traffic in order to draw attention to AIDS and the cause,
because there is apparently a drug that is being gate
kept and they are being charged a ton for which
(55:36):
I was surprised by because I am just so used
to the UK being ahead of the US in terms
of the way that it handles the cost of healthcare.
That hearing that y'all are dealing with this problem, even
though I know that this is like in the eighties,
at this point it's eighty eight, I think I was
genuinely like, wow, really, I thought that was only US
that did this sort of thing, And I had to
(55:59):
remind myself, no, no, no, there's reforms that wound up happening.
But so this protest, because it is so disruptive, which,
for the record, I think protests are supposed to be.
I don't think the way that we have decided protests
should go makes any real sense. I think that we
(56:23):
want protests to be convenient so that it's easier to
ignore them. But I think if you want to accomplish anything,
it needs to be something like this. Unsurprisingly, the people
who are trying to get somewhere and being interrupted are
very very displeased, and the police wind up showing up
(56:46):
and it's there's like this very chilling moment where they
get their gloves out because they don't want to actually
touch any of them, and they begin bodily picking people up. Now,
everybody basically gets picked up without incident other than the
incident of being physically picked up, which is not nothing,
(57:08):
except for Jill, who begins to really wriggle and protests.
She's holding firm and not moving from her place on
the ground, but you can see that she is getting
spooked by the way they are being treated by the police,
and when they go to move her and she is wriggling,
(57:32):
it's being interpreted as like resisting arrest, and this cop
goes to town on her with his baton. It is
a really surprisingly violent moment, and you know, it's the
sort of thing that, like, in the US, this shit
is very commonplace, and I know that it probably is
(57:54):
in the UK as well, but it just has a
whole different flavor when it's in the UK because there's
no uns, so, you know, the like in the US,
cops will certainly use their nightsticks first or the other.
They have these like baton things that without But it
(58:14):
was just I wasn't expecting it, you know. And this
is when Richie leaps into the fray. And earlier Roscoe
had showed up unexpectedly and he's the one that really
gets the party going and has them start their march.
And then Richie shows up here in the midst of
everything as she is getting beaten up, and they are
(58:37):
all corralled and tossed into the back of the same
van and Richie is bleeding and Ash is There had
been a scene earlier in this episode where Ash is
clearly trying to initiate sex with Richie and Ritchie is
pulling away but doesn't tell him what's really going on,
and here just trying to like help him because he's
(59:02):
injured and bleeding. And Richie has to say, hey, I
you can't touch me because I'm bleeding. And he looks
around and all of them have stopped, and Jill is like,
oh my god, do you mean And he says, yeah,
it's funny because I actually was like thinking, I wanted
(59:24):
to tell all of you, but I didn't know how
I was going to get you all in one place.
And then here you are. And the episode ends with
him saying I wanted to tell you all and then
he says I'm going to live, and that's the end
of the episode. And it was actually really beautiful moment
because that despair that he had is so real that
(59:48):
I'm not going to get to be any of the
things I should have been, and I'm going to live.
You could interpret this simply as somebody who is still
in denial way that he has been throughout these past
few episodes, but you could also interpret it as not
(01:00:09):
even him pretending that he isn't going to die from this,
but simply, as long as I get to be alive,
I'm gonna fucking really go for it. You know. Potentially
that's what he means, or it could mean that he's
going to fight and beat this fucking thing, And I
kind of think it's meant to be that second one,
but I could also see it being the first one
(01:00:31):
as well, but you know, considering the way that he
was just immediately it's a death sentence with that nurse
that he got his results from, I think it's meant
to be the second one because it's more like he
is going to acknowledge that there is treatment and that
there are options and he doesn't have to just give
up and doesn't have to see it as an inevitability.
(01:00:56):
And I'm really interested to see how this goes for him,
very very curious, like because I don't know what levels
the treatments were at in eighty eight, so I really
don't know what kind of prognosis there would be for
him when as she says when she gets the testing back,
that it has like advanced the stage. So we'll see,
(01:01:20):
I guess. But yeah, okay, So I have to wrap
this one up. Really really good episode though, very compelling,
and looking forward to the next one is seeing where
we go here. Thank you again Ashley for commissioning this one.
I hope everybody listening is enjoying the coverage. And until
next time to to Loo motherfuckers. That was an unspoiled
(01:02:13):
network podcast.
This is an unspoiled network podcast. This is spoil Me
covering It's a Sin Season one, episode four. In this episode,
we find out that indeed Richie does have AIDS and
(00:29):
he has a much better outlook than I probably would
have in his shoes. It's interesting to see his viewpoints
on a lot of things in this episode. Welcome to
(01:04):
the show everyone, I am Natasha. Thank you very much
to Ashley for commissioning this episode. Ashley is here in
the chat. I had earlier asked whether she preferred Ashley
or Ashley Anne, and she just wrote, I work in
a call center. At this point, there's very little anyone
could call me that it annoyed me. It is. It's
(01:27):
like being on the phone is almost as bad as
being like online, where people just really feel like they
can be However, to you, you know, it's a whole
other world doing phone customer service stuff. And I only
did it for a very short time, and I'm glad
(01:48):
because I didn't care for that shit at all anyway.
So this episode, it's who It's a lot of ah,
what's the word I want here? There's I'm pleasantly surprised
(02:11):
at the complexity of Richie's character. There's like parts of
him that I really like and that I really relate to.
There are parts of him that I don't get at all.
There are parts of him that I am so surprised,
(02:32):
but I also have to sort of step back and
be like, wow, I guess I see how this could happen,
and all of this in total for this episode, it's
shocking to me that this was filmed before the pandemic happened,
(02:53):
because the way different themes aligne it just goes to
show how disconnected straight people were from the aid's crisis
and what was happening. Because if they hadn't been, I
feel like the way people reacted to COVID would not
(03:14):
have come as as much of a surprise. It's just
so wild. The weird shit that we decide is going
to be like our focus or the bizarre kinds of
stories that we are going to tell ourselves or circulate about,
(03:34):
like what helps and what doesn't. And there are some
other things that happened during this episode that precede the
montage that we get with him later, but I want
to talk about it really quickly. The phone call that
he makes to somebody asking and it's like one of
(03:55):
those anonymous helplines, and he's asking about things that could
poss simply help either keep you from getting AIDS or
keep HIV from turning into AIDS. It's sort of unclear.
I'm not even sure he really knows which one he's asking,
But you know, we see in the beginning of the
(04:17):
episode that he's taking all of these different supplements. You know,
he's doing various things that are overall often just a
good idea for your health, but are not going to
prevent or cure any disease. And later on when he
is on the phone, he like asks about drinking battery
(04:40):
acid and drinking his own urine and if this The
battery acid thing did not come up as far as
I know, during COVID, but there was that weird drug
that was meant for like livestock, that a bunch of
people were swearing was going to prevent COVID. I can't
(05:03):
even remember what it was called, but there was like
a rash of conspiracies and weird ideas online surrounding that,
and sales of it went up for a little while.
And the urine thing absolutely was circulating during COVID. There
were a variety of uses. You could drink your own urine,
(05:25):
you could bathe in your own urine, and like some
people would age their urine in jars and then mix
it into food by the tablespoon, just like the kinds
of things that you could like. Even if it did work,
(05:46):
even if there was science proving this works, I don't
know if you could get me to do it, never mind.
Just a friend of mine said, you know, or the
yoga teacher at the place I go know I Ashley says,
how does anyone have enough of their own urine on
hand to bathe? And you're thinking about like a shower
(06:09):
or a bathtubful, But what they would do is a
bird bath kind of situation where they would have it
in a jar and they would dunk a rag in
it and rub it all over themselves and not shower
it off afterwards. By the way, So I would see
(06:30):
posts occasionally that were like screenshots from other groups that
were being shared, and you know how this is. Who
knows if these were like real, But there were people
who were insisting on doing this and then surprised when
loved ones didn't want to be around them because they
stank horrifically and yeah, this is just like the it's
(06:55):
so bizarre to me in general, the weird pipeline that
goes from being somebody who is like interested in natural
remedies and body care to being a full blown blown
(07:17):
paranoid conspiracy theorist slash white supremacist. But that pipeline is
very real, and COVID very much revealed it in a
way that was undeniable and obviously grew tied in with
vaccines and being anti vaccine. And I still I wonder
(07:45):
to this day about how we're going to fight, like
how the future is going to look because so many
people have decided not to vaccinate their kids. We've already
seen the uprising of different diseases that had been almost
unheard of up until the last like ten years. You know,
(08:08):
we have like measles outbreaks and stuff where we haven't
dealt with that in a while in any real way.
And I just wonder if this is going to be
something that like after another decade or so, is going
to fade out or is it going to persist and
(08:30):
more and more people are going to refuse to vaccinate
and it's going to there's going to be a resurgence
of many bigger problems. But anyway, I'm just, you know,
going off on a little bit of a tangent here
because the things that Richie is trying and he is
refusing to get a test, and this person on the
phone is desperately you can hear how agonized they are
(08:52):
that he is trying these things. He's clearly asking because
he's intending to do them, and he hasn't and tested
and it is too afraid to do it. We know
he's gotten tested and didn't get his results, but to
the person on the phone, like that equates to not
having been tested. And the overall awareness of the AIDS
(09:18):
epidemic is going up to the public in general, because
we start off this episode with an ad about It's
like I want to say it's about AIDS, and it is,
but it's so bizarre. It definitely is an actual ad,
(09:39):
Like you can tell they picked out something that had
been on the air and they are putting it up
for us to see. But it says like, if you
ignore AIDS, it could be the death of you, so
don't die in ignorance. And Richie's watching this and saying,
like my mom is watching this chance right now, like
(10:02):
he's worried about her even knowing that this is something
that's going on, and then we like jump to his family.
We smash cut to them and it's her and her
husband watching the television and his dad just clicked off
it to a game show and they barely even paid
any attention to it. So it's sort of an interesting
(10:23):
moment because he's clearly worried that this is going to
be something and they don't even see it as at
all relevant. They have no reaction whatsoever. So yeah, it's
just like the first of multiple moments in this episode
(10:46):
where we see him starting to reveal how he feels
regarding being more public about his sexuality and the way
that others behave with it as well. So we then
(11:08):
go to a funeral service and I don't remember the
name of the person that this is for. I'm so sorry,
but the guy this is so I know that this
is a thing that happens, I don't. I'm trying to
(11:33):
think if I've ever been to a funeral where they
did this. I'm sure I must have. But the way
this is done is that there is a reverend vicar,
perhaps you would say, who is talking about this guy?
(11:54):
Even though he clearly like didn't know him. And I
have heard that this is something that you run into
sometimes his name is Nick Jacobs, okay, where a person
is being put to rest by somebody in charge of
the service who didn't even know who that person was.
(12:16):
And sometimes they ask about the person they're burying ahead
of time and they get some information together, which is
clearly the case here, But sometimes they barely even do that.
And I have like seen fiction, granted, where it's very
(12:37):
clear that they didn't do the bare minimum and are
just saying a bunch of platitudes that really aren't even
true about this person, or they mispronounce their name, or
you know, this sort of thing, And I always find
it so weird because I guess that the point of
this sort of thing is when somebody is part of,
(12:57):
oftentimes like an organized religion, they feel like a person
of authority in that religion needs to be in charge
of the burial. And oh, Nick is the boyfriend, says Ashley,
(13:18):
boyfriend to Nicholas. Uh so, wait, he says, he stands up,
and I'm saying he was his boyfriend to Nick Jacobs
for six years. That's him talking about himself. I see
I'm okay, my bad. I'm trying to find the spot
where they say his name, and I'm sure it's at
the beginning of the thing, but now I don't even
want to. He says, Nick isn't even here because you
(13:39):
banned him. Oh my god, I thought he was talking
about himself. I didn't realize that his boyfriend isn't in
the church. I misunderstood. I totally like the way that
they started talking was like, oh, you banned him. I
thought it was them saying like, we're here anyway. But
now that I'm watching this again, I'm realizing talking on
(14:00):
behalf of somebody who isn't actually physically here. Okay, my bad,
but yeah, this, uh, Peter, thank you, Ashley. Ashley got
the transcript. I need to start finding out where to
find transcripts for shows. A lot of what I do
would be easier, And Ashley is not the first person
(14:20):
to do this, and I am always surprised to realize
that there are transcripts out there, even though this has
happened more than once. I have been doing this for
like thirteen years. I should be more on my shit anyway. Okay,
So this results in a confrontation where they are yelling
(14:44):
at his mother about how you have banned the person
who loved him most from coming to the funeral, and
Richie outside is saying, I just think it's really inappropriate
to have a go at her right now. His mother
is devastated. Now, I just I really want to be
(15:09):
so clear that I am not trying to be judgy
at all about Richie's reaction here. This is me being
fascinated a little bit, because, honestly, you guys, it has
(15:29):
never occurred to me that there was going to be
any gay person out there who had a different feeling
on how pursuing gay rights and representation. It's like wild
to me that it never occurred to me everybody wasn't
(15:51):
going to be loud and proud and ready to be
sort of in your face about it. I know that
there were people who are who were like very much
in the cult and that they kept it to but
I always consider that as like a matter of safety
rather than a matter of genuinely believing we shouldn't be
doing whatever for reasons of etiquette and manners. Do you
(16:17):
know what I'm saying? Like, I just always thought that
anybody who was a lot more conservative overall, they were
simply trying to save themselves the trouble of dealing with
bigots or being in physical danger or whatever. And so
it's the first moment in this episode that I'm like, oh, wow,
(16:43):
Richie's got a completely different attitude than I was expecting,
especially considering how I'm trying to think of the word here.
Richie is so active in the gay scene that the
(17:06):
idea of him wanting to be more reticent in situations
like this, I mean with his own family, sure, but here,
I just didn't expect this attitude from him at all.
He has seemed to be loud and proud as much
as he is allowed to be with his job, you know,
(17:29):
so in a circumstance where he doesn't what's how I'm
trying to think about there, he doesn't have any personal
stake in what's going on here. There's no danger to
his career or in you know, regard to his family
finding out or anything like this. I kind of expected
(17:51):
him to have a similar attitude as Roscoe, where Roscoe
is standing back, grinning and like loving the messiness of
this and loving the confrontational quality of this. Because Roscoe
is somebody who has a lot of anger, and every
time somebody decides that they are going to take a
stand about some bullshit, Roscoe is fucking here for it,
(18:13):
which I totally get. I just kind of expected Richie
to be the same way. And when you step back
and look at it, the way that Richie has been
raised himself, and how comfortable and lacking in confrontation he
has been a lot of his life, it does sort
(18:34):
of follow I guess, you know, just this idea of
like how there are there's a lot of there's a
lot of weird respectability politics built into all kinds of
different identities and a sense of like when it's appropriate
(18:56):
to behave this way versus that way. And this happens
later on they're talking about this job that Ash gets
where he has to like go through a bunch of
literature to find anything that has like a mention of
a gay lifestyle in order to weed it out. And
(19:20):
when the conversation turns to everybody's like attitudes about this,
of course they all feel this is outrageous, except for Richie,
who is like, somebody wrote a story about there being
two dads for like a five year old, and I
just think that's wrong, And It's so bizarre to me
(19:47):
because it's like, I don't think Richie has any shame
about being gay, really, I don't. I think if it
were safe for him to come out, he would in
a more public way except for his family maybe, But
(20:08):
that attitude I can't help but link to shame, and
I just people are complicated, and I think maybe he
just does a really good job of pretending he doesn't
have shame around this in a fake it till you
make it kind of way, because this is how many
of us try and sort of like get ahead of
(20:29):
the abuse that we might take from other people. Is
we behave very aggressively as if it's super duper not
a problem, and hopefully if we are handling it this way,
then nobody else is going to make an issue out
of it, or we can make a joke out of it,
you know whatever. So anyway, I just I liked this
(20:53):
characterization because it's layered and it is It's like, I'm sorry,
Ashley's in the chat says considering the trans people these
days who are happy enough to be right wing puppets
against other trans people, I personally didn't find it too surprising.
I guess, like you're right, Ashley, but I just forget
those people exist too. It's just so like the cognitive
(21:16):
dissonance there is so profound that I just and like
delete them from my mental rolodex because I'm just like,
you don't, you don't make any sense. Sorry. You know
Section twenty eight very famous legislation preventing homosexuality from being
promoted on TV or taught in schools. Teachers could literally
(21:36):
be fired just for being discovered to be gay. It
was only repealed in two thousand and three, which is definitely.
There's a teacher that I had in eighth grade, I think,
or no, sixth grade that looking back now, I know
that man was gay. I absolutely there's no doubt whatsoever
in my mind. And there were so many clues but
(21:57):
I of course, when I was younger, I was taught
from a very young age that gay people existed and
it was fine, but I still didn't assume almost anybody
was gay when I first met them. When I was
told they were gay, I was like, oh, okay. My
aunt had a lot of gay friends. She lived in
(22:18):
San Francisco, so she had a couple of really close
gay friends that I actually got to know quite well,
one of whom was HIV positive and they were long
term partners. They've been together for like twenty years, and
they just you know, were really careful and existed with that.
And then my mom, because she was like pagan and
(22:40):
you know, looking into communities and stuff in the neighborhood,
she would meet a lot of lesbians. So my mom
had a lot of gay friends. And so I got
very much like exposed to all different kinds of sexualities
from a really young age. And then when I went
into high school, I joined theater, and you know, it's
(23:03):
like the fucking haven for queer kids in school. That's
where they fucking go almost every time. And I was
surrounded by queer kids in high school as well. So
I've always been like, I've always had friends who were
some flavor of queer, but I really wasn't walking around
(23:27):
expecting people to be queer out of the gate the
way that I sort of do now where until you
tell me you're not, I kind of like assume everyone
is in a way that's usually more interesting. Actually it's
a more fun way to like view the world. But
it's certainly a change in my headspace because I feel
(23:53):
like understandably, growing up during the eighties and nineties, straightness
was as the default, and so that was how I thought,
And that's just not really the way that I think anymore.
So anyway, anyway, this I'm gonna finish what's going on
(24:13):
with Ritchie. He is still trying to ignore everything that
is going on with him, And he gets a part
in a Doctor Who episode. He's like up against the
Daleks in this Oh my god, you guys, it's something.
And he gets a lighting check from somebody who is
(24:39):
like doing that thing where they are using a meter
to see the light and then they're holding their hand
next to his and they're trying to gauge his complexion
and how to look on camera, I guess. And this
guy says to him, there's something wrong with your skin,
which is honestly just a crazy thing to say to someone.
(25:01):
Like it turns out he's right, but it's just, I mean,
it's one thing to be like, you're looking a little
pale today, or you need to hydrate or you know,
like whatever, but to just be like, there's something wrong
with your skin, I mean what And Ritchie, who has
(25:22):
been trying to run from this the whole time, gets
this look out his face, like, oh God, if there's
something visible, then I really don't think I can hide
from this anymore. Ashley says this was specifically a tribute
to Dursley Linden, who appeared in the nineteen eighty eight
(25:44):
episode Remembrance of the Daleks. He was a gay man
who did pass from aids Ah, Ashley, I really appreciate
you giving me all these little tidbits. This is really interesting,
well pouring out for Durstling. I hate that his name
is Dursley because I just associate that now with the
Dursleys from Harry Potter. But that's not his fault. So
(26:10):
Richie finally goes and gets tested and he is positive,
and we pretty much smash cut, like he talks to
this this woman who is trying to tell him there
are treatments in YadA YadA, and he essentially interrupts her
to be like, look, I am in a household full
(26:32):
of people who talk about this all day. This is
all we talk about. I know what my options are,
and I also know that it's a death sentence. And
we smash cut from there to him at home making
dinner for everybody, and it's so funny because he has
like cut up some steaks, and like, as soon as
he says I found the steaks and cut him up,
(26:53):
I was like, oh, honey, why would you do that
to some nice steaks? And then his mother is like, uh, okay,
well you know those kind of stakes are different from casseroles,
but okay, sure, sure, sure sure. She's really trying to
do her best to be grateful that he is making
food rather than but it is painful when somebody uses
a certain kind of meat for a thing that it's
(27:14):
not meant for, because it will often turn out not great.
So he is making this meal, and I don't know
if his intention was to tell them that he was
ill at dinner or if he was intending to at
(27:34):
least come out. It felt like he was really working
up to something. And as he's cooking, we get the
arrival of each member of his family and their reaction
to him. So his sister comes home and just says,
now it's going to be all about you and is
(27:55):
super mad that he is at home at all and
storms upstairs. This was fascinating to me because she obviously
has had an issue with him, and I couldn't figure
out what it was, and I was wondering if it
was that she was like thinking that he was gay
but that he hadn't come out, and if she had
contempt for him over that or what. But now I'm
(28:19):
seeing that it's just like there's a favorite child situation happening.
He's clearly the one that his parents, like she perceives
at least, they pour all their energy into him, which
I know not from personal experience but secondhand experience with
my girl friends who had brothers. This is not unusual. Unfortunately,
(28:44):
male children get prioritized a lot in certain cultures, Spanish cultures,
like you know, on my dad's side, his family being Colombian,
it's very patriarchal, and Italian families as well. It was
like the girls were literally servants to the male children.
(29:06):
It was so gross to watch. It was so gross
to watch. So anyway, this whole dynamic is odd. His mother,
like I said, comes in and later on is just
delighted that she didn't have to cook, and his dad
comes in, throws him like a meager compliment about somebody
seeing him in a play and saying that he was good.
(29:29):
But he cannot resist following that up with like you
only have like five lines though, and don't you not
get paid much if it's only five lines? So you're
gonna have to get bigger parts, which, you know, it's
a weird thing where I'm like, on the one hand,
at least his dad isn't telling him to be a lawyer. Still,
he's pretty much seemed to accept that Richie's going to
(29:51):
do acting now. But also he just can't just be encouraging,
you know. I'm sure he thinks that he's been encouraging. Yeah,
I'm telling him to get bigger parts. I'm telling him
to do more of this. Yeah, bruh, that's not what
it sounds like though, sorry Ashley is saying. I think so,
(30:15):
given it comes off the back of the doctor asking
whether he is any family he can be with. Same here,
My nanny had to drop out of school at eleven
slash twelve to look after her little siblings. This is
what I'm talking about. It's crazy, you guys, the way
that we treat women and girls. I know I talk
(30:39):
about this a lot, but even still, as somebody hyper
aware of this, there are still so many situations that
come up where I'm genuinely shocked. For a moment that
a thing happened a certain way, and I'll have to
be like, but why, and then somebody has to remind
(30:59):
me because sexism, and I'm like, oh my god, really
that's what was going on here, And it's like, it's
just it's so idiotic. It's like racism. It's like homophobia,
where the bigot tree is so stupid that I just
dismiss it because that wouldn't make any sense. Of course
(31:21):
it doesn't. That's the point of bigotry. It's not based
in fact. That's what the way it works. But I
just it's difficult to wrap my mind around. Sometimes my
nanny wasn't even the eldest she was just the eldest girl.
That's exactly it. You have to be the oldest girl.
(31:42):
But the boys like the eldest boy. It can go
either way, and oftentimes this really depends on whether the
parents are present in a real way or if they
are neglectful, a lot of times resulting because of drug
use or alcoholism or whatever. And sometimes the eldest boy
(32:03):
will step up because he feels like now he has
to be men of the house. But if both parents
are very much engaged in raising them and are not
dealing with that sort of issue, then the eldest boy
will be the most pampered and the like, they will
have the highest hopes for him in some sense. You know,
she was one of twenty two, so help, that is
(32:26):
so bonkers, Ashley. Uh, my dad had seven brothers and
eight sisters, and that I always felt like was just
too much. But twenty two is straight up insanity. I mean,
how did that woman like not die before giving birth
(32:48):
to that many kids. My dad's mom wound up having
some degenerative bone disease because she had had so many
children that they had leached the calcium right out of
her body. And she was, you know, living in Colombia
and in incredible poverty, so it wasn't like she was
getting prenatal vitamins and stuff. And yeah, it did not
(33:09):
end well for her. She was in a lot of
pain at the end. And I think about all the time,
just the way that we act as if childbirth isn't
dangerous anymore, and it's like, you don't ugh anyway, they
didn't all survive childhood. But yeah, yeah, So Richie sets
(33:29):
to the table and then he chickens out and he
grabs the table, setting that was going to be for
his seat, and he says that he's going to go
out to a bar and meet a friend, and his
dad gets really mad at him and is just like,
you need to sit and have dinner with your mom.
(33:51):
What the fuck, and is disgusted with him. Obviously, there's
just this sense of like him knowing that his wife
is disappointed and trying to do this on her behalf,
which I can't help but like appreciate even though he's
(34:12):
a bastard in so many ways. And let's see. He says,
you can stop and have tea with us. Your silly
little friends can wait, stop racing off and give us
twenty minutes for your mother's sake. And Richie says, yeah,
well you can fuck off, and I love. His sister
is standing on the stairs having just heard him say that,
(34:34):
and she looks so delighted. There's just a vibe of like, one,
probably she's wanted to say that to her dad a
million times, and two Richie maybe has fallen out of
favor because now he has said something that he can't
take back from his kids. So oh sorry. Ashley says,
he doesn't want to use the table where that they'll
(34:55):
all be touching, do you think, because I thought of
that at the moment, But he set the table and
he leaves their table where So I was sort of like,
(35:16):
because what else he could wash his own dishes and
then it would be no issue if it's just about
ones that he's actually physically eaten off of. I don't know.
Maybe he's worried that, like he won't get the chance
to wash his own dishes, that his mother will insist
or something, because like the way he looks at the dishes.
(35:36):
I kind of thought that myself, Ashley, but then I
couldn't make sense of that in the context of everything.
I think it's the mug all over again. But that's
what I mean, is like he's touched everything that he's
taken out, and he's set the table for everybody, hasn't he,
(35:57):
So I mean he could to the food if he's
worried about that. It feels like that ship sailed. I
don't know, I mean, maybe that is it. It just
it felt to me like he he is in this
house and he has touched a lot, including the food
they're about to eat heat prepared. So it just seems
(36:17):
like if that was the concern, I'd expect him to
dump all the food in the trash and take all
of the dishes off the table, but he only takes
his place setting away. So it doesn't like it doesn't
feel like it matches, you know, I don't know, maybe,
but it doesn't really matter his motivation because in the
(36:40):
end he goes to this pub called the Farmer's Arms,
I think, and there is a guy here that we
find out later he has fancied since high school. And
it is the weirdest. It's clearly like what he's thinking
here is I'm about to die and I'm going to
(37:04):
make the most of it right before I go and
hook up with this one guy that I was like
obsessed with the whole time that I was in high school.
And on one hand, I see why you'd be like this,
you know, with a person that like you never got
(37:24):
the chance with. But on the other hand, when you
know that you are infected, the idea that you're going
to maybe try and hook up with this person is
so irresponsible and pretty much evil in my opinion, the
(37:45):
way that this could go wrong if you are not
as incredibly careful as you could be, which maybe he
would be. But it just feels like, when you are
not informing that person and they know the risk they're taking,
that is so fucked up. And he doesn't make the
move to do this, but it really the sense in
the scene is that if this guy had acted more interested,
(38:11):
he likely would have. But Richie is telling him how
he had a crush on him, and I was, honestly,
later on, this guy says, you need to be careful
with the way you talk, because I was starting to
get really worried about Richie, and I was sort of like,
is he hoping that this guy will beat the shit
(38:35):
out of him? Like is he courting getting killed in
another way than dying slowly of aids, Because he's just like, like,
you know, suffering from this sort of fatalism and wanting
to set this guy off. I really thought maybe he
(38:58):
was purposely attempting to wind this guy up. Sorry, Astley
says that I'm breaking up. I'm sorry, Ashley. It seems
fine for my end, so I don't know. But he
keeps pushing it. He keeps talking about how often he
(39:20):
would like jerk off to him. And then this girl
that said that they had hooked up and described it
to Richie and how Richie would like jerk off to
that specifically all the time, and he just gets really
aggressive with it, so that this guy has to kind
of bite his head off and be like stop it.
(39:40):
He says stop a few times, and Richie just keeps talking,
and finally dude is like, Okay, that's enough, we should
just go. And the fact that he doesn't just leave
Richie there and is willing to drive him home. I
was really that more than Richie deserved, considering how weird
(40:03):
he's being here. I was just thinking about what it
is like as a woman when a man just insists
on telling you that they jerk off to you, which
I have had happen many times, and it is always like,
clearly they're trying to get it so that you will
sleep with them, but the way that they think that's
going to happen, it's sort of like what did you
(40:25):
expect me to say? Or like, you know, they have
it in their head that things are going to play
out like a porno, I guess, and that you'll be like, oh,
really did it look like this, you know, and blah
blah blah. And I'm assuming that's kind of what Richie
is hoping here, is that this guy is going to
(40:48):
get turned on by Richie describing himself jerking off, but
it goes much the way it does with women who
get this sort of unwelcome attention, where he's just freaked
out and feeling vaguely threatened. And so he gets Richie
(41:10):
in the car and they are heading back and he
tries to say he says something about how like you're
not going to be around here anymore, and Richie, of course,
all things considered, is sort of looking at him like,
oh my god, why does he think? Does he know?
And then he says, you're going to be too posh
for us, You're going to be really famous. And Richie
(41:34):
has a moment of real despair here where he says,
I should have been I would have loved that, but
it's not going to happen. I'm just not going to
get the chance to be anything. It's never going to happen.
And earlier he had described this dance class that he
(41:58):
took that he was in ballet, because he, you know,
is in school for this. And when he gets out,
he stands in the headlights and he does some ballet,
and my god, this kid can move. He is he
has such long slender fingers as well, that every movement
(42:23):
is graceful in a way that is like beyond belief.
I was he's in jeans and like a denim shearling jacket,
clothing that being graceful in doesn't look graceful usually, and
(42:46):
the way he extends his hand, it's beautiful. I was
like so choked up during this scene and he's He'm like,
a big part of me is like I really want
them to find a real and to make him dance
again in this show, because I think he would be incredible.
(43:06):
But yeah, he does this, and he does a few
movements and then just takes off, and it's just such
an odd scene because he comes on to this guy
so hard, but then he has this like breakdown, but
he doesn't tell him about being infected. But it's like,
you know, I'm guessing that this guy is starting to
(43:28):
assume that, but I don't know, and considering the whole
like attitude that he has had throughout this episode about
what's appropriate and what isn't, this outburst with this guy
just feels really like this isn't who you've been What's happening?
(43:52):
And then at the end of the episode spoilers he
winds up jumping on a CoP's back to get him
off of Jill. And one, he had been afraid of
showing up to these things and being outed because then
he wouldn't get work. But two, I just don't think
(44:12):
prediagnosis Richie would have taken this sort of risk. And
there's a part of me that rejoices that he is
casting off those restraints. And yeah, it's just a great moment.
So we'll back up and we'll talk about Roscoe because
(44:32):
he's got a little bit more of a focus this episode. Naturally,
this is something that's going to happen because now Colin
has been taken out of the equation, we have more
room for other characters to really be featured in things.
So there's a meal where Jill's parents come and they
(44:55):
are delightful. I'm trying to remember what I know the
man from and he is fine as hell, and her
parents are just very staunch allies, and they wind up
showing up for the march and everything and it is
just great. But Roscoe prances in on his way to
(45:19):
go and see this MP. Is that the title that
this guy has? And they make a few jokes about
him being basically a sex worker. But he is going
off to this dinner day and he's in a very
stead suit. He's seated at this table. First, there's nobody
(45:42):
else there yet, and a part of me was sort
of like, what is going to happen here? But then
these other guys wind up coming in who are also
it seems like representatives, and they each also have one
of their perhaps boyfriend perhaps aids, Oh my god, not
(46:03):
that Aid. You know what I'm talking about, like an
assistant Jesus Christ, Natasha, you get what I'm talking about.
So this whole scene, I was expecting it to be
that they were that he was like going to connect
(46:23):
with one of these other young men, and it doesn't
happen now, it might come up later because we get
a good look at them, and I can't help but
think that's for a reason that maybe the show is
letting us see them so that later on, if we
run into one of them, we will have another we'll
(46:45):
have like a frame of reference. But yeah, this is
a like very surprising moment to me. I was just
not expecting this man to take him out in public
with him the way that he does later on, when
he's talking about needing more colored as he puts it
(47:07):
faces in this audience. I was like, Oh, I see
this is like an optics thing in a different way
than I was expecting. But at first I never would
have thought that he would be seen out with Roscoe
like this. Oh my god, sorry, uh, Ashley says in
(47:33):
the chat, we got to meet the real Jill this episode.
It's Jill who wrote the memoir. She plays her own mother.
That is so fun. That's delightful. Also, fuck Thatcher burning
in the hottest part of hell right now, smile face. Yet,
Thatcher is one of those people that I remember being
talked about when I was little, and without any particular
(47:56):
emotion behind her name. When she came up, and then
as I got older, everything I heard about her grew
more and more angry, not as if she kept doing
wronger and wronger things, but in the way that, like
hindsight has begun to show people, she was much more
(48:20):
awful than they even realized at the time. And it
just seems like there is so she did so much
harm in so many different arenas that there are a
lot of people who have like their particular grievance against
her because of the way she harmed the community that
(48:43):
they are from, and it is remarkable how much harm
one person can do. It's one of those things that, like,
I really do believe that the majority of people on
earth want to do the right thing and be decent people,
the problem being, of course, what decent means to all
of us doesn't mean the same thing. But overall, I
feel like most people want to do the right thing,
(49:06):
but the people who don't are oftentimes able to get
into such positions of power because they don't care about
other people that they can do a disproportionate amount of damage.
And that feels like so unfair to me. You know
that the very thing that causes them to do damage
(49:28):
is what allows them to scale that ladder and get
to places where they have that kind of power. It
just feels like a really unfair setup, but that's how
it works. So, Yeah, bro is possessed with thatcher. He
keeps calling her the lady, which I'm assuming is like
(49:50):
a thing. Maybe it's just his thing, but I don't
think so. And Roscoe is obviously like enjoying the situation.
I don't think he really cares about this man at all,
But there's a feeling of like I'm making the most
of what I have while I can. And eventually there's
(50:15):
a point where there's like this event that's going to
happen and Thatcher is visiting, and he has this tea
tray that he is absolutely panicking about the impression he
is giving in every respect. He wants to switch ties
because he's wearing a school tie for a school that
she doesn't like. He doesn't want the tea to come
(50:38):
out too early because then it will look like it
was stewing, just and considering later on that we like
find out she doesn't even drink tea. Usually she drinks coffee.
I'm just sort of like really, but yeah, he is
just really fidgeting over the impression that he is going
to make. And Rosk says, oh my god, you've got
(51:02):
a boner. And he's like, well, yes, I am standing
at attention. And you know, she can cause a lot
of excitement. And Rosco's like, wait for her, you're hard
for her. And he's like, well yeah. And Rosca's like,
(51:26):
but you're gay, and he says, and I'm gonna paraphrase this,
I'm not gay. Sometimes you've got to put your face
in the shit so that you can better appreciate when
you are able to stand up and smell the flowers.
(51:53):
I mean, wow, how does a person say this to
somebody without realizing the damage they're doing? How is he
surprised at Roscoe's reaction? It is wild that he doesn't
see it coming exactly what the fuck happens? So he
(52:18):
says this to Roscoe like it's the most reasonable thing
in the world, and then he leaves and leaves Roscoe
with the tea trolley, and we see Roscoe looking at everything,
and I was sort of wondering if like it was
going to be something to the Scones or you know,
like I don't know. But later on it is revealed
(52:40):
that Roscoe pissed in the coffee, and he makes sure
to tell this man that as the trolley is rolling
toward her, which I really appreciated that extra touch of
like he has been so worried about the impression of everything,
(53:00):
and there is no way to get the trolley and
take the coffee away and get a new pot without
it being like kind of a whole production, and he
wouldn't be able to explain to anybody exactly what happened
or anything. So it's not like he's done huge damage
in general. But this guy has clearly obsessed over every
(53:22):
detail in such a way that this is a complete
calamity because he has been planning, like down to the
final minutes of meeting her, the timing of how everything
was going to go, And it's just a really petty
but effective wrench to throw in the works. And I
(53:46):
was really proud of Roscoe here as well, because you know,
I said last episode that I don't fault him at
all for just like being in a relationship where he
is getting something forgiving something. But that is a totally
different situation when somebody begins to demean you in the
way that this guy talked about him, Once you begin
(54:08):
to like allow yourself to be treated that way, it's
crossing a boundary that once you begin to accept that treatment,
there really isn't a good way to like bring it
back to a level of respect. You have got to
just walk away, because I just don't feel like you
(54:30):
can come back from that. He revealed what he really
thought of you, and there's no way for him to
say anything that would convince me he didn't mean it
exactly the way it sounded, So anyway, all of this
is happening, and Roscoe had been avoiding coming to this
(54:54):
march in order to be with this man, and I'd
really disappointed Jill, who wanted him with her. We have
then the actual march and the group that is gathering,
and they are disappointed with the turnout. They had hoped
that a lot more people would come, and they have
(55:14):
decided to stage this protest where they are going to
lay down in the street at an intersection and interrupt
traffic in order to draw attention to AIDS and the cause,
because there is apparently a drug that is being gate
kept and they are being charged a ton for which
(55:36):
I was surprised by because I am just so used
to the UK being ahead of the US in terms
of the way that it handles the cost of healthcare.
That hearing that y'all are dealing with this problem, even
though I know that this is like in the eighties,
at this point it's eighty eight, I think I was
genuinely like, wow, really, I thought that was only US
that did this sort of thing, And I had to
(55:59):
remind myself, no, no, no, there's reforms that wound up happening.
But so this protest, because it is so disruptive, which,
for the record, I think protests are supposed to be.
I don't think the way that we have decided protests
should go makes any real sense. I think that we
(56:23):
want protests to be convenient so that it's easier to
ignore them. But I think if you want to accomplish anything,
it needs to be something like this. Unsurprisingly, the people
who are trying to get somewhere and being interrupted are
very very displeased, and the police wind up showing up
(56:46):
and it's there's like this very chilling moment where they
get their gloves out because they don't want to actually
touch any of them, and they begin bodily picking people up. Now,
everybody basically gets picked up without incident other than the
incident of being physically picked up, which is not nothing,
(57:08):
except for Jill, who begins to really wriggle and protests.
She's holding firm and not moving from her place on
the ground, but you can see that she is getting
spooked by the way they are being treated by the police,
and when they go to move her and she is wriggling,
(57:32):
it's being interpreted as like resisting arrest, and this cop
goes to town on her with his baton. It is
a really surprisingly violent moment, and you know, it's the
sort of thing that, like, in the US, this shit
is very commonplace, and I know that it probably is
(57:54):
in the UK as well, but it just has a
whole different flavor when it's in the UK because there's
no uns, so, you know, the like in the US,
cops will certainly use their nightsticks first or the other.
They have these like baton things that without But it
(58:14):
was just I wasn't expecting it, you know. And this
is when Richie leaps into the fray. And earlier Roscoe
had showed up unexpectedly and he's the one that really
gets the party going and has them start their march.
And then Richie shows up here in the midst of
everything as she is getting beaten up, and they are
(58:37):
all corralled and tossed into the back of the same
van and Richie is bleeding and Ash is There had
been a scene earlier in this episode where Ash is
clearly trying to initiate sex with Richie and Ritchie is
pulling away but doesn't tell him what's really going on,
and here just trying to like help him because he's
(59:02):
injured and bleeding. And Richie has to say, hey, I
you can't touch me because I'm bleeding. And he looks
around and all of them have stopped, and Jill is like,
oh my god, do you mean And he says, yeah,
it's funny because I actually was like thinking, I wanted
(59:24):
to tell all of you, but I didn't know how
I was going to get you all in one place.
And then here you are. And the episode ends with
him saying I wanted to tell you all and then
he says I'm going to live, and that's the end
of the episode. And it was actually really beautiful moment
because that despair that he had is so real that
(59:48):
I'm not going to get to be any of the
things I should have been, and I'm going to live.
You could interpret this simply as somebody who is still
in denial way that he has been throughout these past
few episodes, but you could also interpret it as not
(01:00:09):
even him pretending that he isn't going to die from this,
but simply, as long as I get to be alive,
I'm gonna fucking really go for it. You know. Potentially
that's what he means, or it could mean that he's
going to fight and beat this fucking thing, And I
kind of think it's meant to be that second one,
but I could also see it being the first one
(01:00:31):
as well, but you know, considering the way that he
was just immediately it's a death sentence with that nurse
that he got his results from, I think it's meant
to be the second one because it's more like he
is going to acknowledge that there is treatment and that
there are options and he doesn't have to just give
up and doesn't have to see it as an inevitability.
(01:00:56):
And I'm really interested to see how this goes for him,
very very curious, like because I don't know what levels
the treatments were at in eighty eight, so I really
don't know what kind of prognosis there would be for
him when as she says when she gets the testing back,
that it has like advanced the stage. So we'll see,
(01:01:20):
I guess. But yeah, okay, So I have to wrap
this one up. Really really good episode though, very compelling,
and looking forward to the next one is seeing where
we go here. Thank you again Ashley for commissioning this one.
I hope everybody listening is enjoying the coverage. And until
next time to to Loo motherfuckers. That was an unspoiled
(01:02:13):
network podcast.
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