August 4, 2026 • 26 mins
Pre-Order Pete Scazzero's forthcoming book, Emotionally Healthy Success at www.emotionallyhealthy.org/success
For most of my early ministry, I led from my gifts. Teaching, vision-casting, faith, I had those in abundance, and little else. So I built my leadership on them, hid my weaknesses, and made sure no one saw me struggle. Then a painful church split exposed the whole thing. I spiraled into a two-year depression before I hit rock bottom, and found Jesus waiting for me there.
In this episode, I walk through the second of four reversals from my new book: the move from charisma to weakness and limits. Jesus was born to a peasant girl, lived thirty ordinary years, and refused the power offered him in the desert. Paul, facing leaders with every credential he lacked, chose to boast in his weakness instead. "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness."
If you've been measuring your ministry by the world's scorecard- gifts, platform, impact- this episode will show you a better one. Weakness isn't a hindrance to what God wants to do through you. It's the doorway.
Learn more about the 2026 FALL SEMESTER School of Emotionally Healthy Leadership https://www.emotionallyhealthy.org/leadershipschool/
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hi, my name is Pete Scazaro.
Want to welcome you today to theEmotionally Healthy Leader
podcast.
Our topic today is reversalnumber two from charisma to
weakness and limits.
From charisma to weakness andlimits.
Now, what if almost everythingyou and I have been, you and me
have been taught about, youknow, success and ministry is a
(00:24):
bigger ministry, larger impact,getting the respect of people
that we admire.
But imagine if this is exactlywhat Jesus came to overturn.
Because Jesus didn't come tojust tweak the religious systems
of his day.
He actually came to overturnthem.
It's a paradigm shift.
It's a paradigm shift ofcolossal proportions.
(00:45):
It's like you see the earth asflat and you realize, oh my
gosh, paradigm-wise, it is roundand it changes everything.
And the earth is not the centerof the universe.
It's much larger than that.
God is.
And so this is a jolt when wetalk about Jesus' redefinition
of success and moving, forexample, just today in from po
from weak from charisma toweakness and limits.
(01:06):
It's a jolt for those of us whoare measuring life by the old
order and the old way and falsevalues.
And uh that's why Jesus said uhwhat is exalted among humans is
abominable in the sight of God,Luke 16, 15.
It's very challenging for us inthe Western church in the 21st
(01:26):
century to actually absorb this.
It's hard to see it, uh, becausealmost everything we've been
trained to is been the opposite.
And but once you see it,everything in scripture begins
to pop out at you in a freshway, especially in the Gospel of
Luke, which I've been studyingnow for you know a few years.
Um, but it's again, it's hard tosee because almost everything
(01:47):
we've been trained to admire isso different.
And uh, for example, I began tosee that Jesus was born not into
wealth or royalty, but actuallyto a peasant girl in a small
obscure village.
Uh the first to hear the goodnews are peasants, the lower,
the lower class shepherds, uh,and uh they're day laborers.
Uh, they're the bottom of theladder.
(02:07):
And from his first sermon inNazareth, Jesus makes the point
that the good news is for thepoor, the excluded, the
marginalized, the overlooked.
Uh, he talks about Gentiles andthe whole world.
Uh, he blesses the poor.
He pronounces, woe to those whoare comfortable and well-fed and
self-secure apart from God.
He touches lepers and Samaritansand Roman centurions and even a
(02:28):
tax collector and uh dyingcriminals on a cross.
I mean, the people who aregetting Jesus' message are the
ones outside the bounds of thereligious system of his day.
And the ones who understand him,the shock, it's widows, it's
it's children, it's outsiders,it's women weeping at his feet.
But the religious professionals,those who know the Bible really
(02:51):
well, like me, um, uh they havethe resumes, they've got the
Bible training, they'vememorized the first five books
of the Bible, they're prayingthree times a day.
Uh, they just can't see it.
And even the 12 are struggling.
And towards the cross, at theend of three years, they're
still arguing about who's thegreatest, who's going to get the
top positions, uh, rather thanactually seeing and absorbing
(03:12):
the radicalness of thecrucifixion, which is about to
happen to Jesus.
But that's where the wholereversal actually lands, all of
them at the cross.
And Jesus uh ends up in a Romanexecution, uh, not a palace.
So he fulfills his purpose notby climbing upward, but actually
going down or descending, not instrength, but he actually in
weakness, uh, and not by beingexalted, at least initially, but
(03:35):
by being humbled.
And then the resurrection comes.
So uh this isn't a minor themetucked into a little verse or
two of the gospel.
This is actually a core theme ofall of Scripture, uh, and it has
turned my understanding ofsuccess over time truly upside
down.
So I'm doing this actually afour-part series on on these
(03:55):
reversals of Jesus aboutdefining success because they're
they're a uh they're a sectionof the book I've just finished
writing called EmotionallyHealthy Success, which I spent
three and a half years actuallywriting it, but thinking about
it much longer, even beforethat.
And um uh and and and I'm Ithere's so much in these, each
of these four reversals that I Icouldn't put in the book, but
(04:18):
each one is worthy of a bookthat I wanted to take these four
podcasts to really enlarge themand expand on them.
So uh each one, again, is worthyof its own treatment.
So again, it goes so deepbecause it goes against our
family of origin, it goesagainst our culture, it goes
against the religious systemswe're all a part of.
And actually, we're wrestlingagainst demonic powers and
(04:39):
principalities of darkness.
This is Ephesians 6 material.
Um, and so we're wrestling andwe're seeking to take the sword
of the spirit, scripture, andget it into us so deeply that it
actually gets into our bones.
We eat it, we digest it, we'reactually shaped and formed by
it.
So last podcast, we talked aboutreversal number one, which was
moving from prayer as to getresults to prayer for communion
(05:04):
uh with God.
And the last podcast we talkedabout, it's out of that
communion with God, everythingelse flows.
Actually, intercession goes, butit's it's a massive reversal of
praying for results to prayingfor communion.
Today is the second big reversalof Jesus, which is moving from
charisma or gifts to weaknessand limits.
(05:24):
So uh in our culture, of course,we place a lot of premium uh on
power and influence.
And so we, of course, take thatworld understanding of power and
influence.
We just add naturally just bringit to the church.
Bigger the church, the better,uh high impact, impressive
ministries and buildings, and weget seduced by the world's
(05:46):
definition of powers and we getdiscouraged by anything that
smells of weakness because wethink if I could only be
stronger, I could get so muchmore done for God.
I know in my early days, uh Ijust took that from the from the
world.
I mean, I uh I more I wantedmore gifts, I wanted more
anointing, I wanted people withgreater giftings on my
(06:09):
leadership team, uh, morewisdom, better strategies, uh,
better staff.
I wanted to uh get a betterplatform in which to reach
people for for God.
I wanted to hire the right kindof people to minimize my own
weaknesses, uh, bigger, social,bigger followings on social
media.
And I know, as many people sayto me, we're not lead pastors,
so I could only be the leadpastor, the things that I would
(06:32):
do to change things.
And when we planted our church,we didn't have a lot of money or
a lot of people, but we did havesome charisma, some vision, uh,
some faith, and um, we had anabundance of that.
But because I spent so much ofmy early life uh before I even
came to Jesus at the age of 19,getting rid of any appearance of
weakness, uh, I assumedChristian leadership, of course,
(06:54):
was the same.
And uh, I needed to lead from mystrengths, uh, my gifts, not my
weakness and limits.
And I didn't want to let peoplesee me struggle.
So, you know, it was a it took apainful, very painful split uh
in one of the congregations I'dplanted uh in Spanish that
exposed my very fragilefoundation.
(07:14):
Uh, and it's when God really hadmy attention about something was
wrong inside of me.
And I felt humiliated.
Uh, I spiraled downward into adepression.
Uh, and it was a really, it wasa final confirmation.
Yes, Pete, you are an inadequateuh leader.
You're a failure.
Uh, and it was a two-yeardescent, and I finally hit rock
(07:35):
bottom.
Uh, and I found out again, Jesuswas waiting for me there.
It was actually quite wonderful.
And out of that place, God gaveme a fresh revelation of his
love.
Uh, and I began to see things uhnot just in me, but I began to
see scripture differently, Jesusdifferently, read the gospels
differently.
That again, Jesus born topoverty and to a peasant woman,
(07:56):
Mary, uh, under Romanoccupation.
Uh he lived a very ordinary lifeas a carpenter with limits and
weakness.
He died crucified, uh theepitome of weakness.
And he was offered power andglory in the wilderness by the
devil.
Uh, he was offered all thesefalse measurements of what would
be success, even in the firstcentury, just like it is today
(08:17):
in the 21st century.
Uh and he didn't take it.
Uh and he understood and and andhe got it.
And so he was, he allowedhimself to be handed over to the
authorities.
And the end of the gospels is isthings being done to him.
He surrenders.
He could call on 12 legions ofangels, but he doesn't because
he's he's following the Father'swill and it's a downward
(08:37):
descent, um, being strippednaked, robbed of dignity.
I mean, he's misunderstood as acriminal, he's considered a
heretic, and he lays on, he's ona cross, God hanging naked.
It is the ultimate in weakness.
And so, you know, it's funnybecause I worshiped Jesus, but I
I didn't, I ran.
I didn't like the very thingsthat he embraced.
(08:57):
Isn't it interesting?
I worshiped and uh was workingfor Jesus, but I actually ran
away from the very things thathe embraced and chose, which is
weakness and limits andobscurity.
Uh you know, he was crucified inweakness, Paul writes, but he
was, he lived, yet he lives byGod's power.
And uh, so the a great the thethe best uh image of this or the
(09:23):
best kind of illustration that'shas spoken to me now for years
is out of 2 Corinthians chapters10 to 13, where we see the
apostle Paul in a in a battlestruggling with these men and
women who are super apostles,they're super apostles.
And Paul writes about them inthe 2nd Corinthians.
(09:43):
Uh, and they uh they areimpressive, they're they're
they're outwardly so successfulby the world standards, they're
confident, they're they'recharismatic, they have glowing
letters of confirmation fromJerusalem.
Uh they got all these zealousfollowers, and Paul doesn't look
like much.
In fact, I got a little charthere that contrasts them in
front of me here.
(10:04):
And uh so you've got imagineyou've got this group of people,
Paul plants the church inCorinth, church grows and
blossoms, Paul leaves, he'sgoing to plant other churches,
and then what follows is uh isthese these number of super
apostles emerge in the church,whether they come from the
outside or from the inside or acombination of both.
And they basically uh they're sodifferent than Paul.
They are they're they haveletters, official letters of of
(10:27):
recommendation from theJerusalem church led by James.
And so Paul doesn't have anyletters of recommendation.
And so they're basicallyusurping Paul's authority.
They're saying, no, we're we'releading this church.
Paul is Paul is not a goodapostle.
We are the apostles.
And so they've got officialcredentials from the Church of
Jerusalem, Peter, James, andJohn.
Paul does not.
(10:48):
They have great speaking gifts.
It speaks of that in 2Corinthians 10 to 13.
They were eloquent, apparently,and trained speakers.
And Paul writes about the factthat he was not eloquent.
He was not a trained speaker.
Uh, their physical appearancewas impressive.
Uh they that that and that wouldhave been considered among the
Greeks a sign of God's favor.
(11:09):
On the other hand, Paul'sphysical uh appearance is not
impressive.
Uh, we don't know if it was histhorn in the flesh, but
something about Paul's physicalappearance, whether he was
really short, uh, who knows, Idon't know, but whatever it was,
it was a contrast to thesuperapostles, and it was very
unimpressive.
Uh the superapostles talked alot about their supernatural
(11:29):
experiences with God, theirrevelations in the heavenlies,
uh, static visions and dreams.
And Paul, on the other hand,didn't talk about that stuff.
Uh, in fact, uh, Paul only onlyhe only speaks about in 2
Corinthians uh when he'sdefending himself that he was
lifted up into the into thethird heaven 14 years ago.
But he didn't and he startstalking about that, but he never
(11:50):
talked about those visions, butthose other folks are a lot.
And then finally, these othersuperapostles are are boasting
of their impact, of their power,of their credentials.
You know, they're they'reboasting and they're they have
obvious leadership qualities.
They can get it done and movethis up and to the right.
Paul, on the other hand, istalking about boasting, not of
(12:13):
his all these credentials ofpower, impact, et cetera.
He's boasting about hisweaknesses, his limits, his
fears.
Uh, and so these super apostleshave an incredible resume of
honor.
Uh, and they are followingbasically the Roman world of how
you considered a great, whowould you consider a great
leader?
Uh, and just like Romanofficials in that day would
(12:36):
celebrate their achievements.
And when they would retire, uh,Roman soldiers and generals,
they would carve their names instone.
They would actually write downtheir accomplishments and list
of achievements and carve it instone.
In fact, one of the medals theywould get would be considered
almost like the equivalent herein the United States as a medal
of honor.
(12:57):
And that is when they were uhattacking a city and scaling a
wall, the first one to go overthe wall was a superhero.
Uh, and they would get thiscrown, this, this, this, this
crown, this honor.
And uh when Paul is contrastinghimself, uh his credentials, he
says, you guys don't get it.
(13:17):
He says to the Corinthians, whatreal leadership is.
You're confused.
Um, he goes, it's not about yourachievements and credentials and
all this external stuff.
He goes, here's my resume.
And so Paul begins to list hisresume.
And it's not all things heaccomplished, it's his being
shipwrecked, beaten, naked,stripped.
Uh, and then he writes, uh, Iwas lowered in a basket from a
(13:38):
window in the wall and slippedthrough their hands, but I will
not boast about myself, but onlyabout my weaknesses.
And Paul says, unlike the greatRoman soldiers who scale the
wall to attack and winvictories, I actually escaped
through a wall to save myselfand ran from my life.
And uh, because he goes, I boastabout my weakness, not in my
(14:00):
human strength.
And so Paul's point is thatweakness is not a hindrance to
God, but it's actually therequirement to be a servant of
God.
And he says, and Paul's gonnasay, look at Jesus, look at his
sufferings, look at hislimitations, look at his
weakness.
This is the core of the gospel,it's the core of Christianity,
it's the core of Jesus.
The essential qualification forapostleship or Christian
(14:24):
leadership, Paul says, is notcharisma.
It's not gifts, uh, it's noteven experience, it's not
anointing.
It is actually weakness andembracing one's limits.
In fact, Paul would say it thisway: supernatural experiences
that people boast about actuallyhave uh can become the greatest
potential to stop the flow ofthe power of God through a
(14:47):
person.
I want to say that again becauseit's so important.
Boasting about accomplishmentsand supernatural experiences and
all that stuff and how you knowhow great we are, and he goes,
actually has the greatestpotential to actually block the
power of God flowing through us.
And uh because in fact, it maybe that your power of God's
(15:08):
barely perceptible in yourministry.
So that's why Paul says, My theLord said to him, My grace is
sufficient for you, for my poweris made perfect in weakness.
And Paul speaks about his thornin the flesh and that he
couldn't get rid of.
And he goes, This was actuallysomething that enables victory
to happen.
And uh, Paul, like us, we wantto get rid of our weaknesses, we
(15:29):
want to get rid of ourlimitations so that we can carry
on the work of God.
That's what I've wanted.
My goodness, that's been myprayer most of my life.
And Paul's saying, no, no, youdon't get it, that weakness uh
and limits are actually theplatform through which the power
of God is displayed.
Uh it's a gift, and that's whyPaul says, most gladly will I uh
(15:49):
delight in my weaknesses.
We're not merely acceptingweakness, we're actually gladly
embracing them.
And so Paul's moments ofweakness are, he was saying,
these are our moments ofgreatest power.
That's the that that that'sthat's the unbelievable thing
about this redefinition ofsuccess.
(16:10):
Paul gets it by looking at thelife of Jesus, his choices he
made, that no, no, success ismoving from charisma, earthly
charisma, power, influence, toweakness and limits.
So let me summarize it in thesethree statements, because
they're so important.
We get discouraged by ourweaknesses and we wrongly think
(16:31):
if I could only get stronger, Icould accomplish so much more
for God.
No, no, no, no, no.
No.
God's means of working is not bymaking us stronger, but by
making us weaker and weakeruntil his power is clearly
(16:52):
manifested in our lives.
In other words, when we reachthe end of our capabilities, we
actually open the door for Godto begin to move in power.
Even when we're differentiatingand doing the work of clearly
offering leadership to people,but we do it out of weakness,
not arrogance.
And then weakness, limits, andsufferings actually are not a
(17:15):
hindrance, but they're anabsolute requirement for the
power of God to flow through us,to fulfill his plan for your
life.
This is the only path, way togo, uh, because apart from him,
we can do absolutely nothing.
Let me let me let me give you avery simple illustration how
this works out in everyday life.
(17:37):
This happened to me just lastweek.
Uh Jerry and I were with somefamily members, uh, her extended
family, and um, we were having anice conversation.
And at some point I just startedrambling and talking, and Jerry
was trying to make a couple ofpoints, and I just kind of cut
her off and just wasn't reallythinking and didn't really agree
(17:58):
with what she was saying, andjust shut her down.
I wasn't even aware or barelyaware that I shut her down.
Uh of course, I think I'mhelping the conversation, uh,
but it was very hurtful to her.
And I was unconscious, veryunaware, and um wasn't one of my
best moments.
So, of course, she tells meafterwards the next day, she's
(18:21):
hurt.
And of course, I've got toreflect on it.
You know, I reflect on it andwhy and what's that all about,
and it's happened to me before.
And I was just, you know, uhpart of me, once of course, when
Jerry starts sharing how she washurt, I want to defend myself.
I want to say, yeah, but youdon't understand, you were
saying this, and I was notreally correct.
And I really disagreed withthat.
But it was the way I did it.
(18:41):
It was just so inappropriate umand unkind.
And I was at this moment of likeby myself, of, oh, I need to ask
her forgiveness, but I don'twant to ask her forgiveness.
Uh, I don't want to even look atwhat happened uh and what I did
because it's painful and I wantto avoid it.
(19:02):
And so I have to do my owninternal process of my own sin,
the kind of arrogance, thepride, the self-will, the
stubbornness, the reactivity,the, you know, I got out of
abiding.
Uh, I was tired, uh, even goinginto it.
I had overbooked my day.
(19:22):
We had done some other thingsearlier today, Jerry and I.
And uh so I began to look at thewhole larger picture of how I
got into the spot of acting sopoorly.
And so it was painful to unpackit all personally.
And uh and finally, of course,asked her forgiveness.
Um, and we had to talk about it,which was difficult.
(19:46):
It was weak, and exposure againof my limits and journaling
about it.
And uh, and then I actually, youknow, the following day ended
up.
I was reading where Jesus saysto the woman, the sinful woman
at the Pharisees' house in Luke7, uh, your sins are forgiven.
And uh I ended up doing a lectiodivina on your sins are
(20:09):
forgiven.
And just the Lord just came tome and talked about my sins are
forgiven.
And not just that sin, but thatjust took me to my goodness, the
the depth and breadth and heightand width of of of my sins and
the love of Jesus to over overyou know, cleanse them by his
(20:30):
blood.
And uh, oh Lord, I just neededto sit there and receive
forgiveness.
And like that woman in Luke 7,you know, wet his feet with my
tears and wash them with my, youknow, dry them with my hair, uh,
and pour ointment on his feetand love him for his grace and
forgiveness.
And he goes, You know, he goes,your faith has made you well, go
(20:50):
in peace, and I receive peace.
But my point is it would havebeen so easy, just so easy at
that moment, not to bereflective, to it would be so
easy to be defensive, shut herdown again, um, break union and
communion in our marriage, uh,and uh make leave nothing
happened.
(21:11):
So practically, what does itmean?
It means in situations likethat, you actually stop.
Uh, it means I'm honest about myimperfections and struggles, and
I can say I don't know to peoplearound me when I'm not sure what
to do, um, when I'm overwhelmed.
Instead of being guarded andprotective, uh, I can actually
invite critique and input.
(21:32):
You know, Jerry, for example,what could have I done
differently?
But that relates to teams andleadership.
I can ask for input so I cangrow and change.
I can ask others for help.
Uh I can accept that uh God'swill is sometimes hard and
difficult.
And I I gotta in saying my notmy will, but your will be done,
(21:53):
that apart from Jesus, I canactually do nothing.
There is no fruit that's gonnacome out of my life.
Don't try to My opinion all thetime.
I can be really careful aboutthat and listening to God in my
limits, whether it's age,energy, gifts, other factors
around me.
And even prioritizing silenceand solitude is weakness.
(22:15):
Um I recently spent, you know,four days at a monastery just to
be silent and listen.
Uh it's weak.
Uh it's just weak.
And God's kingdom is just socounterintuitive.
And so the second reversal isabout moving from charisma, what
I can, what I can do, uh, toactual weakness, you know, and
(22:39):
limits.
And that's for this reason Pauldid not rely on his mighty
intellect.
And he really did have a mightyintellect.
He didn't, he didn't, hisability to make an argument was
unbelievable.
Uh he doesn't impress peoplewith that stuff, with his
cleverness, with one-liners.
Uh he writes, When I came toyou, I did not come with
(22:59):
eloquence or human wisdom.
He goes, I came in weakness withgreat fear and trembling.
It's amazing.
Uh he would he felt inadequate.
He admitted his helplessness.
He he was honest about thisthorn of the flesh he couldn't
get rid of.
He talks about he was nervousand afraid.
Don't we get nervous and afraidbefore we do things?
(23:20):
Uh you may be someone who speaksor gets in front of people or
leads small groups for years,but to go into it weekly, weak
is just so huge.
And so the invitation is evenwhen you do have, and we all
have power and gifts andresources and positions and
experiences, even a parent hasposition and power.
Uh, maybe in your company, aschool, uh, but we come like
(23:43):
Paul, we come like Jesus, wecome weak, we come knowing our
limits, we come dependent onJesus uh alone.
That's why God's wisdom hasalways been misunderstood by the
human race, as wisdom and power.
Uh, Jesus was crucified inweakness, and it's the supreme
manifestation of the power andwisdom of God.
(24:07):
I like when Paul writes, for thefoolishness of God is wiser than
human wisdom, and the weaknessof God is stronger than human
strength.
It just stands, it stands in insuch a sharp contrast with
everything around us.
And uh what the world considersfoolish, absurd, a waste, um,
weakness, the cross, uh, isactually a revelation of the
(24:30):
wisest counsel and the power ofGod.
So we're talking about Jesus'four great reversals as kind of
a summary of his redefinition ofsuccess.
So uh the last podcast, wetalked about moving from
communion, prayer for prayer forresults to prayer for communion.
Today in this podcast, we'vetalked about moving from um
charisma, anointings, andexperience to uh weakness and
(24:54):
limits.
The next podcast, we're gonnatalk about moving from our best
ideas and strategies todiscerning God's voice.
And then the fourth uh podcastwill be on moving from critical
mass to critical yeast.
And again, they're my effort oruh to distill in simple terms
the four core uh redefinitionsof success that Jesus gives us,
(25:17):
which have massive implicationsfor the way that we lead, the
way that we serve Jesus, the waythat we interact with people,
the values we hold, and thedecisions we make on a daily
basis of what we do.
Thank you so much for being withme.
It's been so good to be withyou.
And I pray you would getcaptured by the radicalness and
(25:39):
the beauty of Jesus and hiskingdom because we were designed
to live within uh the parametersuh of his truth to set us free
uh and enable us to flourish uhfor him.
Blessings to you.
Have a wonderful day.
Look forward to seeing you onthe next podcast as we go into
(26:00):
the radical reversal numberthree.
God bless you.
Have a good day.
Hi, my name is Pete Scazaro.
Want to welcome you today to theEmotionally Healthy Leader
podcast.
Our topic today is reversalnumber two from charisma to
weakness and limits.
From charisma to weakness andlimits.
Now, what if almost everythingyou and I have been, you and me
have been taught about, youknow, success and ministry is a
(00:24):
bigger ministry, larger impact,getting the respect of people
that we admire.
But imagine if this is exactlywhat Jesus came to overturn.
Because Jesus didn't come tojust tweak the religious systems
of his day.
He actually came to overturnthem.
It's a paradigm shift.
It's a paradigm shift ofcolossal proportions.
(00:45):
It's like you see the earth asflat and you realize, oh my
gosh, paradigm-wise, it is roundand it changes everything.
And the earth is not the centerof the universe.
It's much larger than that.
God is.
And so this is a jolt when wetalk about Jesus' redefinition
of success and moving, forexample, just today in from po
from weak from charisma toweakness and limits.
(01:06):
It's a jolt for those of us whoare measuring life by the old
order and the old way and falsevalues.
And uh that's why Jesus said uhwhat is exalted among humans is
abominable in the sight of God,Luke 16, 15.
It's very challenging for us inthe Western church in the 21st
(01:26):
century to actually absorb this.
It's hard to see it, uh, becausealmost everything we've been
trained to is been the opposite.
And but once you see it,everything in scripture begins
to pop out at you in a freshway, especially in the Gospel of
Luke, which I've been studyingnow for you know a few years.
Um, but it's again, it's hard tosee because almost everything
(01:47):
we've been trained to admire isso different.
And uh, for example, I began tosee that Jesus was born not into
wealth or royalty, but actuallyto a peasant girl in a small
obscure village.
Uh the first to hear the goodnews are peasants, the lower,
the lower class shepherds, uh,and uh they're day laborers.
Uh, they're the bottom of theladder.
(02:07):
And from his first sermon inNazareth, Jesus makes the point
that the good news is for thepoor, the excluded, the
marginalized, the overlooked.
Uh, he talks about Gentiles andthe whole world.
Uh, he blesses the poor.
He pronounces, woe to those whoare comfortable and well-fed and
self-secure apart from God.
He touches lepers and Samaritansand Roman centurions and even a
(02:28):
tax collector and uh dyingcriminals on a cross.
I mean, the people who aregetting Jesus' message are the
ones outside the bounds of thereligious system of his day.
And the ones who understand him,the shock, it's widows, it's
it's children, it's outsiders,it's women weeping at his feet.
But the religious professionals,those who know the Bible really
(02:51):
well, like me, um, uh they havethe resumes, they've got the
Bible training, they'vememorized the first five books
of the Bible, they're prayingthree times a day.
Uh, they just can't see it.
And even the 12 are struggling.
And towards the cross, at theend of three years, they're
still arguing about who's thegreatest, who's going to get the
top positions, uh, rather thanactually seeing and absorbing
(03:12):
the radicalness of thecrucifixion, which is about to
happen to Jesus.
But that's where the wholereversal actually lands, all of
them at the cross.
And Jesus uh ends up in a Romanexecution, uh, not a palace.
So he fulfills his purpose notby climbing upward, but actually
going down or descending, not instrength, but he actually in
weakness, uh, and not by beingexalted, at least initially, but
(03:35):
by being humbled.
And then the resurrection comes.
So uh this isn't a minor themetucked into a little verse or
two of the gospel.
This is actually a core theme ofall of Scripture, uh, and it has
turned my understanding ofsuccess over time truly upside
down.
So I'm doing this actually afour-part series on on these
(03:55):
reversals of Jesus aboutdefining success because they're
they're a uh they're a sectionof the book I've just finished
writing called EmotionallyHealthy Success, which I spent
three and a half years actuallywriting it, but thinking about
it much longer, even beforethat.
And um uh and and and I'm Ithere's so much in these, each
of these four reversals that I Icouldn't put in the book, but
(04:18):
each one is worthy of a bookthat I wanted to take these four
podcasts to really enlarge themand expand on them.
So uh each one, again, is worthyof its own treatment.
So again, it goes so deepbecause it goes against our
family of origin, it goesagainst our culture, it goes
against the religious systemswe're all a part of.
And actually, we're wrestlingagainst demonic powers and
(04:39):
principalities of darkness.
This is Ephesians 6 material.
Um, and so we're wrestling andwe're seeking to take the sword
of the spirit, scripture, andget it into us so deeply that it
actually gets into our bones.
We eat it, we digest it, we'reactually shaped and formed by
it.
So last podcast, we talked aboutreversal number one, which was
moving from prayer as to getresults to prayer for communion
(05:04):
uh with God.
And the last podcast we talkedabout, it's out of that
communion with God, everythingelse flows.
Actually, intercession goes, butit's it's a massive reversal of
praying for results to prayingfor communion.
Today is the second big reversalof Jesus, which is moving from
charisma or gifts to weaknessand limits.
(05:24):
So uh in our culture, of course,we place a lot of premium uh on
power and influence.
And so we, of course, take thatworld understanding of power and
influence.
We just add naturally just bringit to the church.
Bigger the church, the better,uh high impact, impressive
ministries and buildings, and weget seduced by the world's
(05:46):
definition of powers and we getdiscouraged by anything that
smells of weakness because wethink if I could only be
stronger, I could get so muchmore done for God.
I know in my early days, uh Ijust took that from the from the
world.
I mean, I uh I more I wantedmore gifts, I wanted more
anointing, I wanted people withgreater giftings on my
(06:09):
leadership team, uh, morewisdom, better strategies, uh,
better staff.
I wanted to uh get a betterplatform in which to reach
people for for God.
I wanted to hire the right kindof people to minimize my own
weaknesses, uh, bigger, social,bigger followings on social
media.
And I know, as many people sayto me, we're not lead pastors,
so I could only be the leadpastor, the things that I would
(06:32):
do to change things.
And when we planted our church,we didn't have a lot of money or
a lot of people, but we did havesome charisma, some vision, uh,
some faith, and um, we had anabundance of that.
But because I spent so much ofmy early life uh before I even
came to Jesus at the age of 19,getting rid of any appearance of
weakness, uh, I assumedChristian leadership, of course,
(06:54):
was the same.
And uh, I needed to lead from mystrengths, uh, my gifts, not my
weakness and limits.
And I didn't want to let peoplesee me struggle.
So, you know, it was a it took apainful, very painful split uh
in one of the congregations I'dplanted uh in Spanish that
exposed my very fragilefoundation.
(07:14):
Uh, and it's when God really hadmy attention about something was
wrong inside of me.
And I felt humiliated.
Uh, I spiraled downward into adepression.
Uh, and it was a really, it wasa final confirmation.
Yes, Pete, you are an inadequateuh leader.
You're a failure.
Uh, and it was a two-yeardescent, and I finally hit rock
(07:35):
bottom.
Uh, and I found out again, Jesuswas waiting for me there.
It was actually quite wonderful.
And out of that place, God gaveme a fresh revelation of his
love.
Uh, and I began to see things uhnot just in me, but I began to
see scripture differently, Jesusdifferently, read the gospels
differently.
That again, Jesus born topoverty and to a peasant woman,
(07:56):
Mary, uh, under Romanoccupation.
Uh he lived a very ordinary lifeas a carpenter with limits and
weakness.
He died crucified, uh theepitome of weakness.
And he was offered power andglory in the wilderness by the
devil.
Uh, he was offered all thesefalse measurements of what would
be success, even in the firstcentury, just like it is today
(08:17):
in the 21st century.
Uh and he didn't take it.
Uh and he understood and and andhe got it.
And so he was, he allowedhimself to be handed over to the
authorities.
And the end of the gospels is isthings being done to him.
He surrenders.
He could call on 12 legions ofangels, but he doesn't because
he's he's following the Father'swill and it's a downward
(08:37):
descent, um, being strippednaked, robbed of dignity.
I mean, he's misunderstood as acriminal, he's considered a
heretic, and he lays on, he's ona cross, God hanging naked.
It is the ultimate in weakness.
And so, you know, it's funnybecause I worshiped Jesus, but I
I didn't, I ran.
I didn't like the very thingsthat he embraced.
(08:57):
Isn't it interesting?
I worshiped and uh was workingfor Jesus, but I actually ran
away from the very things thathe embraced and chose, which is
weakness and limits andobscurity.
Uh you know, he was crucified inweakness, Paul writes, but he
was, he lived, yet he lives byGod's power.
And uh, so the a great the thethe best uh image of this or the
(09:23):
best kind of illustration that'shas spoken to me now for years
is out of 2 Corinthians chapters10 to 13, where we see the
apostle Paul in a in a battlestruggling with these men and
women who are super apostles,they're super apostles.
And Paul writes about them inthe 2nd Corinthians.
(09:43):
Uh, and they uh they areimpressive, they're they're
they're outwardly so successfulby the world standards, they're
confident, they're they'recharismatic, they have glowing
letters of confirmation fromJerusalem.
Uh they got all these zealousfollowers, and Paul doesn't look
like much.
In fact, I got a little charthere that contrasts them in
front of me here.
(10:04):
And uh so you've got imagineyou've got this group of people,
Paul plants the church inCorinth, church grows and
blossoms, Paul leaves, he'sgoing to plant other churches,
and then what follows is uh isthese these number of super
apostles emerge in the church,whether they come from the
outside or from the inside or acombination of both.
And they basically uh they're sodifferent than Paul.
They are they're they haveletters, official letters of of
(10:27):
recommendation from theJerusalem church led by James.
And so Paul doesn't have anyletters of recommendation.
And so they're basicallyusurping Paul's authority.
They're saying, no, we're we'releading this church.
Paul is Paul is not a goodapostle.
We are the apostles.
And so they've got officialcredentials from the Church of
Jerusalem, Peter, James, andJohn.
Paul does not.
(10:48):
They have great speaking gifts.
It speaks of that in 2Corinthians 10 to 13.
They were eloquent, apparently,and trained speakers.
And Paul writes about the factthat he was not eloquent.
He was not a trained speaker.
Uh, their physical appearancewas impressive.
Uh they that that and that wouldhave been considered among the
Greeks a sign of God's favor.
(11:09):
On the other hand, Paul'sphysical uh appearance is not
impressive.
Uh, we don't know if it was histhorn in the flesh, but
something about Paul's physicalappearance, whether he was
really short, uh, who knows, Idon't know, but whatever it was,
it was a contrast to thesuperapostles, and it was very
unimpressive.
Uh the superapostles talked alot about their supernatural
(11:29):
experiences with God, theirrevelations in the heavenlies,
uh, static visions and dreams.
And Paul, on the other hand,didn't talk about that stuff.
Uh, in fact, uh, Paul only onlyhe only speaks about in 2
Corinthians uh when he'sdefending himself that he was
lifted up into the into thethird heaven 14 years ago.
But he didn't and he startstalking about that, but he never
(11:50):
talked about those visions, butthose other folks are a lot.
And then finally, these othersuperapostles are are boasting
of their impact, of their power,of their credentials.
You know, they're they'reboasting and they're they have
obvious leadership qualities.
They can get it done and movethis up and to the right.
Paul, on the other hand, istalking about boasting, not of
(12:13):
his all these credentials ofpower, impact, et cetera.
He's boasting about hisweaknesses, his limits, his
fears.
Uh, and so these super apostleshave an incredible resume of
honor.
Uh, and they are followingbasically the Roman world of how
you considered a great, whowould you consider a great
leader?
Uh, and just like Romanofficials in that day would
(12:36):
celebrate their achievements.
And when they would retire, uh,Roman soldiers and generals,
they would carve their names instone.
They would actually write downtheir accomplishments and list
of achievements and carve it instone.
In fact, one of the medals theywould get would be considered
almost like the equivalent herein the United States as a medal
of honor.
(12:57):
And that is when they were uhattacking a city and scaling a
wall, the first one to go overthe wall was a superhero.
Uh, and they would get thiscrown, this, this, this, this
crown, this honor.
And uh when Paul is contrastinghimself, uh his credentials, he
says, you guys don't get it.
(13:17):
He says to the Corinthians, whatreal leadership is.
You're confused.
Um, he goes, it's not about yourachievements and credentials and
all this external stuff.
He goes, here's my resume.
And so Paul begins to list hisresume.
And it's not all things heaccomplished, it's his being
shipwrecked, beaten, naked,stripped.
Uh, and then he writes, uh, Iwas lowered in a basket from a
(13:38):
window in the wall and slippedthrough their hands, but I will
not boast about myself, but onlyabout my weaknesses.
And Paul says, unlike the greatRoman soldiers who scale the
wall to attack and winvictories, I actually escaped
through a wall to save myselfand ran from my life.
And uh, because he goes, I boastabout my weakness, not in my
(14:00):
human strength.
And so Paul's point is thatweakness is not a hindrance to
God, but it's actually therequirement to be a servant of
God.
And he says, and Paul's gonnasay, look at Jesus, look at his
sufferings, look at hislimitations, look at his
weakness.
This is the core of the gospel,it's the core of Christianity,
it's the core of Jesus.
The essential qualification forapostleship or Christian
(14:24):
leadership, Paul says, is notcharisma.
It's not gifts, uh, it's noteven experience, it's not
anointing.
It is actually weakness andembracing one's limits.
In fact, Paul would say it thisway: supernatural experiences
that people boast about actuallyhave uh can become the greatest
potential to stop the flow ofthe power of God through a
(14:47):
person.
I want to say that again becauseit's so important.
Boasting about accomplishmentsand supernatural experiences and
all that stuff and how you knowhow great we are, and he goes,
actually has the greatestpotential to actually block the
power of God flowing through us.
And uh because in fact, it maybe that your power of God's
(15:08):
barely perceptible in yourministry.
So that's why Paul says, My theLord said to him, My grace is
sufficient for you, for my poweris made perfect in weakness.
And Paul speaks about his thornin the flesh and that he
couldn't get rid of.
And he goes, This was actuallysomething that enables victory
to happen.
And uh, Paul, like us, we wantto get rid of our weaknesses, we
(15:29):
want to get rid of ourlimitations so that we can carry
on the work of God.
That's what I've wanted.
My goodness, that's been myprayer most of my life.
And Paul's saying, no, no, youdon't get it, that weakness uh
and limits are actually theplatform through which the power
of God is displayed.
Uh it's a gift, and that's whyPaul says, most gladly will I uh
(15:49):
delight in my weaknesses.
We're not merely acceptingweakness, we're actually gladly
embracing them.
And so Paul's moments ofweakness are, he was saying,
these are our moments ofgreatest power.
That's the that that that'sthat's the unbelievable thing
about this redefinition ofsuccess.
(16:10):
Paul gets it by looking at thelife of Jesus, his choices he
made, that no, no, success ismoving from charisma, earthly
charisma, power, influence, toweakness and limits.
So let me summarize it in thesethree statements, because
they're so important.
We get discouraged by ourweaknesses and we wrongly think
(16:31):
if I could only get stronger, Icould accomplish so much more
for God.
No, no, no, no, no.
No.
God's means of working is not bymaking us stronger, but by
making us weaker and weakeruntil his power is clearly
(16:52):
manifested in our lives.
In other words, when we reachthe end of our capabilities, we
actually open the door for Godto begin to move in power.
Even when we're differentiatingand doing the work of clearly
offering leadership to people,but we do it out of weakness,
not arrogance.
And then weakness, limits, andsufferings actually are not a
(17:15):
hindrance, but they're anabsolute requirement for the
power of God to flow through us,to fulfill his plan for your
life.
This is the only path, way togo, uh, because apart from him,
we can do absolutely nothing.
Let me let me let me give you avery simple illustration how
this works out in everyday life.
(17:37):
This happened to me just lastweek.
Uh Jerry and I were with somefamily members, uh, her extended
family, and um, we were having anice conversation.
And at some point I just startedrambling and talking, and Jerry
was trying to make a couple ofpoints, and I just kind of cut
her off and just wasn't reallythinking and didn't really agree
(17:58):
with what she was saying, andjust shut her down.
I wasn't even aware or barelyaware that I shut her down.
Uh of course, I think I'mhelping the conversation, uh,
but it was very hurtful to her.
And I was unconscious, veryunaware, and um wasn't one of my
best moments.
So, of course, she tells meafterwards the next day, she's
(18:21):
hurt.
And of course, I've got toreflect on it.
You know, I reflect on it andwhy and what's that all about,
and it's happened to me before.
And I was just, you know, uhpart of me, once of course, when
Jerry starts sharing how she washurt, I want to defend myself.
I want to say, yeah, but youdon't understand, you were
saying this, and I was notreally correct.
And I really disagreed withthat.
But it was the way I did it.
(18:41):
It was just so inappropriate umand unkind.
And I was at this moment of likeby myself, of, oh, I need to ask
her forgiveness, but I don'twant to ask her forgiveness.
Uh, I don't want to even look atwhat happened uh and what I did
because it's painful and I wantto avoid it.
(19:02):
And so I have to do my owninternal process of my own sin,
the kind of arrogance, thepride, the self-will, the
stubbornness, the reactivity,the, you know, I got out of
abiding.
Uh, I was tired, uh, even goinginto it.
I had overbooked my day.
(19:22):
We had done some other thingsearlier today, Jerry and I.
And uh so I began to look at thewhole larger picture of how I
got into the spot of acting sopoorly.
And so it was painful to unpackit all personally.
And uh and finally, of course,asked her forgiveness.
Um, and we had to talk about it,which was difficult.
(19:46):
It was weak, and exposure againof my limits and journaling
about it.
And uh, and then I actually, youknow, the following day ended
up.
I was reading where Jesus saysto the woman, the sinful woman
at the Pharisees' house in Luke7, uh, your sins are forgiven.
And uh I ended up doing a lectiodivina on your sins are
(20:09):
forgiven.
And just the Lord just came tome and talked about my sins are
forgiven.
And not just that sin, but thatjust took me to my goodness, the
the depth and breadth and heightand width of of of my sins and
the love of Jesus to over overyou know, cleanse them by his
(20:30):
blood.
And uh, oh Lord, I just neededto sit there and receive
forgiveness.
And like that woman in Luke 7,you know, wet his feet with my
tears and wash them with my, youknow, dry them with my hair, uh,
and pour ointment on his feetand love him for his grace and
forgiveness.
And he goes, You know, he goes,your faith has made you well, go
(20:50):
in peace, and I receive peace.
But my point is it would havebeen so easy, just so easy at
that moment, not to bereflective, to it would be so
easy to be defensive, shut herdown again, um, break union and
communion in our marriage, uh,and uh make leave nothing
happened.
(21:11):
So practically, what does itmean?
It means in situations likethat, you actually stop.
Uh, it means I'm honest about myimperfections and struggles, and
I can say I don't know to peoplearound me when I'm not sure what
to do, um, when I'm overwhelmed.
Instead of being guarded andprotective, uh, I can actually
invite critique and input.
(21:32):
You know, Jerry, for example,what could have I done
differently?
But that relates to teams andleadership.
I can ask for input so I cangrow and change.
I can ask others for help.
Uh I can accept that uh God'swill is sometimes hard and
difficult.
And I I gotta in saying my notmy will, but your will be done,
(21:53):
that apart from Jesus, I canactually do nothing.
There is no fruit that's gonnacome out of my life.
Don't try to My opinion all thetime.
I can be really careful aboutthat and listening to God in my
limits, whether it's age,energy, gifts, other factors
around me.
And even prioritizing silenceand solitude is weakness.
(22:15):
Um I recently spent, you know,four days at a monastery just to
be silent and listen.
Uh it's weak.
Uh it's just weak.
And God's kingdom is just socounterintuitive.
And so the second reversal isabout moving from charisma, what
I can, what I can do, uh, toactual weakness, you know, and
(22:39):
limits.
And that's for this reason Pauldid not rely on his mighty
intellect.
And he really did have a mightyintellect.
He didn't, he didn't, hisability to make an argument was
unbelievable.
Uh he doesn't impress peoplewith that stuff, with his
cleverness, with one-liners.
Uh he writes, When I came toyou, I did not come with
(22:59):
eloquence or human wisdom.
He goes, I came in weakness withgreat fear and trembling.
It's amazing.
Uh he would he felt inadequate.
He admitted his helplessness.
He he was honest about thisthorn of the flesh he couldn't
get rid of.
He talks about he was nervousand afraid.
Don't we get nervous and afraidbefore we do things?
(23:20):
Uh you may be someone who speaksor gets in front of people or
leads small groups for years,but to go into it weekly, weak
is just so huge.
And so the invitation is evenwhen you do have, and we all
have power and gifts andresources and positions and
experiences, even a parent hasposition and power.
Uh, maybe in your company, aschool, uh, but we come like
(23:43):
Paul, we come like Jesus, wecome weak, we come knowing our
limits, we come dependent onJesus uh alone.
That's why God's wisdom hasalways been misunderstood by the
human race, as wisdom and power.
Uh, Jesus was crucified inweakness, and it's the supreme
manifestation of the power andwisdom of God.
(24:07):
I like when Paul writes, for thefoolishness of God is wiser than
human wisdom, and the weaknessof God is stronger than human
strength.
It just stands, it stands in insuch a sharp contrast with
everything around us.
And uh what the world considersfoolish, absurd, a waste, um,
weakness, the cross, uh, isactually a revelation of the
(24:30):
wisest counsel and the power ofGod.
So we're talking about Jesus'four great reversals as kind of
a summary of his redefinition ofsuccess.
So uh the last podcast, wetalked about moving from
communion, prayer for prayer forresults to prayer for communion.
Today in this podcast, we'vetalked about moving from um
charisma, anointings, andexperience to uh weakness and
(24:54):
limits.
The next podcast, we're gonnatalk about moving from our best
ideas and strategies todiscerning God's voice.
And then the fourth uh podcastwill be on moving from critical
mass to critical yeast.
And again, they're my effort oruh to distill in simple terms
the four core uh redefinitionsof success that Jesus gives us,
(25:17):
which have massive implicationsfor the way that we lead, the
way that we serve Jesus, the waythat we interact with people,
the values we hold, and thedecisions we make on a daily
basis of what we do.
Thank you so much for being withme.
It's been so good to be withyou.
And I pray you would getcaptured by the radicalness and
(25:39):
the beauty of Jesus and hiskingdom because we were designed
to live within uh the parametersuh of his truth to set us free
uh and enable us to flourish uhfor him.
Blessings to you.
Have a wonderful day.
Look forward to seeing you onthe next podcast as we go into
(26:00):
the radical reversal numberthree.
God bless you.
Have a good day.
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