August 18, 2026 • 30 mins
Pre-Order Pete Scazzero's forthcoming book, Emotionally Healthy Success, at www.emotionallyhealthy.org/success and get a free chapter.
For my first seventeen years in ministry, I led for Jesus without listening to him. My prayer life was mostly a list of requests. When a door opened, I walked through it and called it faithfulness, following my best ideas and telling myself it was discernment.
In this episode, I walk through the third of four reversals from my new book: the move from our best ideas to discerning God's voice. Even Peter, James, and John struggled here. Peter watched Jesus transfigured on the mountain and responded with a plan: let's build three shelters. God interrupted him mid-sentence. "Listen to him." Not "help him." Not "build for him." Listen.
If you've ever assumed your best idea for God was from God, this episode will show you a better way. Discernment isn't a bonus skill for the spiritually elite. It's the difference between leading for Jesus and actually listening to him.
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Are You Measuring What Matters Most to Jesus: A New Scorecard for Success in Life and Leadership, Nov. 10th, 2 PM ET. Learn more at emotionallyhealthy.org/webinar.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Hi, my name is Pete Scoaro.
Once again, I want to welcomeyou to the Emotionally Healthy
Leader podcast.
Our topic today is reversalnumber three: moving from our
best ideas to discerning God'svoice, moving from our best
ideas to discerning God's voice.
Now, as I said earlier inprevious podcasts, I've been
(00:25):
working on a book which I'vejust completed, The Emotionally
Healthy Success, for the lastthree and a half years.
And at the core of this book isa biblical theology of success
from the life of Jesus, ofcourse.
And at the core is a portion ofthe book about four great
reversals of how Jesus totallydismantles our earth's
(00:47):
understanding of success andbrings us into a vision and
experience of his kingdom.
It's really difficult for us toreceive it in the 21st century
West.
And I'm doing these four reverradical reversals because they
deserve such a wider treatmentbeyond what I can actually put
in the book.
And they're so important for ustoday.
(01:07):
Because Jesus offers us akingdom radically different from
the world around us in terms ofwhat we consider success.
It's not about making some smalladjustments or adding a few
spiritual disciplines to ourlife or adjusting our leadership
strategies.
It's much deeper.
It's a series of radicalreversals and it's a decisive
(01:28):
shift.
It's a jolt from everythingwe've considered.
Okay, this is the way I shouldbe living my life, but it's a
path to joy.
It is a path to freedom.
It is the path to the light,easy yoke of Jesus.
It's and so I've talked aboutreversal one in previous
podcasts, moving from prayer forresults to prayer for communion.
(01:51):
And then we talked about in thelast podcast, the reversal
number two, which is moving fromcharisma to weakness and limits.
And now today is reversal numberthree, moving from our best
ideas to discerning God's voice.
So the word listen or hearingfrom God is over fifty is found
over 1,500 times in scripture.
(02:13):
But the problem is it's easierto work for God than actually
listen to Him.
And uh that's why this the mostimportant question you could be
asking all the time is what'sGod saying?
How's God coming to me?
How is he leading me right now?
My first 17 years as a as aJesus follower and uh my early
years as a pastor, my firstseven, eight years, six, seven
years as a cur of a as a pastor,uh, I spent my time leading for
(02:37):
Jesus, but I wasn't actuallylistening to him.
I wasn't really trained in that.
Uh my prayer life was mostlyintercession.
The understanding was, ofcourse, we're obeying scripture.
We've got the Great Commission,build God's church, and I want
to steward my gifts was theunderstanding.
I've got gifts, and I want tomaximize the use of these gifts,
multiply five talents to tentalents, etc., uh, and advance
(03:01):
God's kingdom.
And so I would seizeopportunities.
That's what I was taught.
Look for open doors.
Where's, you know, where's aplace I could maximize uh the
use of gifts, talent, resources,people uh to advance God's
kingdom and do it.
Uh and I I got a friend uhrecently said to me as he was
retiring, I want from his formaljob, I want to maximize the use
(03:25):
of my life experience for God.
And uh I said to him, that's notreally the first question, how
to maximize and steward, juststeward your gifts.
The issue is what's God sayingto you.
That's the best use of yourgifts and talent, is how is God
speaking to you in hisdirection?
Because what we think isstrategic may not be at all what
(03:48):
God thinks is strategic.
And uh, in fact, I was I I'mwith pastors often and I I
talked to them about, you know,how talking about your prayer
life and how much of your prayerlife is actually listening.
And for the most part, it it'sspeaking, it's talking, it's
intercession.
And uh one pastor said it to merecently, this this time just
recently said to me, nope, my myprayer time is intercession.
(04:11):
I I people give me prayerrequests, uh I read scripture,
and then I I'm praying for themone by one by one.
I said, What about listening?
What about being still beforethe Lord and listening to what
he's saying to you?
And he said, It's really, I'mnot good at that.
It's not really, uh it's notsomething I I learned.
And so that I it's very hard forme, silence.
(04:32):
My mind gets distracted, I don'tthink it's for me.
And we talked about just theirony that we could be leading
for Jesus, an entire church,hundreds, if not thousands, of
people, and yet I don't actuallylisten to Jesus for direction.
Um I'm I've got too much to dofor him to actually do that.
(04:54):
And it's just so ironic thatit's almost like this isn't the
core of the curriculum.
Because think about what couldbe more important than not just
communing with Jesus, thenlistening to him and following
his voice versus our best ideas.
So this is this is revolutionaryuh to move this reversal from
(05:15):
your best ideas to actuallydiscerning his voice.
Now, think of that.
This would this was such achallenge for the 12 disciples
uh as they followed Jesus andwere intent on listening to his
voice.
And over and over again, we findthem obtuse.
We find them not listening.
They have their own preconceivedmotion, notion of what the
(05:38):
Messiah should be doing.
Over and over again, he'stalking to them about the cross,
the crucifixion, uh, and they'rejust not getting it.
They're they're thinking totallydifferently.
And they actually oppose Jesusin so many moments because
they've got their best ideas.
I mean, just think that one ofthe greatest stories of this is
the Mount of Transfiguration,where Jesus goes up to a
(06:01):
mountain.
We see him constantly going tothe Father to pray.
And Elijah and Moses appear,he's transfigured before them.
And Peter, James, and John, hisleadership team, they're with
him.
And they see all this.
And Peter uh is observing this,especially in the Luke version
of the transfiguration.
He sees that uh Moses and Elijahare leaving, and he he gets
(06:26):
anxious.
And so he makes a plan.
He goes, Lord, uh, it's good forus to be here.
Let's build three booths.
Let he makes a plan.
Let's basically capture thismoment.
We we can build something herethat the that the multitudes can
come to.
We can build your kingdom thisway.
Uh and and his anxiety to makesure the moment's not lost, he
(06:48):
does something.
He makes a plan.
But then a cloud comes fromheaven and says, and the father
speaks, says, listen to him,listen to Jesus.
Uh but it's just so hard becausePeter's got his own plans.
And we see this again again,even in the um in the arrest of
Jesus, where uh Jesus is goingto be telling them he's gonna
(07:10):
get arrested, he's gonna be ontrial, he's gonna be crucified,
then he's gonna rise from thedead.
But they just can't hear it.
And Peter in particular, and sowhen he gets arrested, uh,
everyone flees.
Peter grabs a, before thatfleeing, he grabs a sword and he
cuts off the high priest'sservant's ear.
He gets violent.
(07:31):
And Jesus said, I could havecalled 12 legions of angels to
stop this, but uh, he's he'swrestled in prayer, he's doing
the Father's will.
Peter's got his own best ideas.
And I I relate to Peter, I getit.
I've got so many ideas of my ownof what I think would be best
for God in his kingdom, and Iknow you do as well.
And so this this cuts to thecore of what it means to not
(07:55):
just lead for Jesus, what itmeans to follow Jesus, because
it's so different than our ourown thoughts.
And again, uh, without thinking,we end up in places we don't
want to be.
And so we all want a spirituallife.
Everybody wants a spirituality,but we just want to be in charge
of it.
And we want it to unfoldaccording to a certain way and a
(08:15):
certain timetable.
And uh, but the the Jesus makesit clear that to follow him,
it's not doing what we want, butit's doing what he says.
And uh that's why listening toJesus and discerning what Jesus
is saying and doing is moreimportant than any project, any
cause, any person uh in theworld.
(08:36):
There's nothing more important.
Uh, but this is a deeplistening.
Uh, this is something welearned, we tune in our ears to,
uh, so that his word actuallyexplodes with power inside of
us.
So, and remember, one of the oneof the central parables, uh,
foundational parables of all theparables is the famous parable
(08:57):
of the sower and the seed, whereJesus talks about listening, he
who has ears to hear it, let himhear.
And he describes four types ofsoil.
And remember, the first soil issoil on the path that the devil
just comes and takes away theword.
They hear it, but it never evengets into the soil.
The second soil is a rocky soil,but it says because of thorns,
they receive it with joy, but itdies.
(09:19):
It doesn't, it it it getschoked.
And it says because in times oftesting, and testing is is
refers to uh testing is whenwhen things are going terrible
and we have the world itdifficulties, severe trials, we
wonder where God is.
These are testings, and andwhere where the word is meant to
go deeper into us, not be not bechoked.
(09:40):
And then the third soil is thethorny soil where the word gets
choked, they don't listenbecause it says three things the
uh worry, the worries of theworld, the riches of the world,
and the pleasures of life.
They they actually uh it gets itdoesn't mature, it doesn't grow.
But the good good soil, only oneof the four soils, is a good
soil.
They retain that this personsare persons who retain it and by
(10:02):
persevering produce 30, 60,100fold.
It's so much fruitfulness flows.
So, so, and this is the key,Jesus says, He who has ears to
hear, let him hear.
And so we want to be good soil,we want to be great listeners,
uh, so this so we can be bearingfruit for for decades in our
life.
So we learn this from Jesus,first of all, because Jesus
(10:24):
practiced discernment with theFather.
He said, I only do what I seethe Father doing.
And we see him constantly tuninginto the Father, moving away to
pray, so he could be faithful tothe Father's voice and will in
the face of all these competingpressures.
You and I have so manytemptations, things pulling at
(10:46):
us, many good things.
And thus, like Jesus, we want tolearn to listen.
So we see it really most clearlyin the wilderness, in the
temptations uh of the desertwith the devil when Jesus is
there for 40 days and 40 nights.
And and they just capture sowell our struggle with
listening.
Because you remember that thedevil comes and says to Jesus,
(11:07):
tell these stones to becomebread.
And so it's as a voice coming tohim.
Now, in some cases, it's aninternal voice to us.
We hear these voices, you know,do this.
Uh tell these stones to becomebread and and uh you know, use
your gifts.
You know, you can solve this,you know, take charge, do
something.
Uh, you can't move a parked car.
But Jesus resisted that voice.
And uh he says, you know, humanscannot live by bread alone, but
(11:29):
by every word that proceeds outof the mouth of God.
And uh and he rejects this,this, in a sense, getting
popular with people by turningthese stones to bread, which he
could have done.
Uh and again, that was beingpopular and loved by other
people was so uh so foundationalto the whole first century, not
just in the 21st century, withsocial media and getting likes.
(11:52):
It it was it was the dominantway the world has functioned
since the beginning.
We want to be liked and affirmedby people.
And uh Jesus talked about thePharisees are religious leaders,
everything they do is for peopleto see, and he rejected that.
He in he was able to discern theFather's voice and to say,
humans do not live by breadalone, but by every word that
proceeds out of the mouth ofGod.
(12:13):
What's interesting is that inhis communion with the Father
and His listening, he even knowsthe scripture that applies, it
comes alive to him, you know,from Deuteronomy 8.
We don't live by bread alone,uh, but by every word that
proceeds out of the mouth ofGod.
And the second temptation is insome ways very similar.
You know, throw yourself downfrom the temple and uh so people
(12:35):
will believe in you.
And Jesus, he doesn't, hedoesn't follow that voice uh to
act in that way.
And again, the scripture comesto him from Psalm 91, but he
doesn't do a spectacular miracleon demand.
Uh, he doesn't just do whatpeople are asking him to do.
And uh, you know, he renouncesthe idea of being great in the
(12:56):
world standards.
And then it's, you know, bowdown to me and worship me, and
I'll give you all the kingdomsof the world, the devil says.
And and Jesus quotes again, he'squoting scripture, worship the
Lord your God and him alone.
But he he's hearing the Father'svoice about, no, you you've got
a the path is the crucifixion,the pad, you got a whole path in
front of you, and this is ashortcut.
Don't take it.
And uh, he doesn't take theshortcut.
(13:17):
And discernment, he only acts ashe hears the father's voice.
He refuses to act from the otherfrom voices, other voices.
Now we have a lot of othervoices coming at us all the
time.
And uh, but discernment of theFather's voice was essential,
was for Jesus.
If it was essential and centralto Jesus, how central and
(13:40):
essential is discerning God'svoice to us?
Let me just take a moment andjust how practical this is uh
for our everyday lives.
I'll give you four examples frommy own life that pretty much are
daily.
Um, first of all, even my timewith God.
You know, God, how how I'masking the question, God, uh,
you know, how are you coming tome in scripture and in silence
(14:03):
today?
Um even the ling how what I doin scripture, of lingering over
a passage or a text and what I'mreading in scripture.
So I'm I'm in the book of Lukeagain, and and God just has me,
you know, he has me stop atcertain passages and I'm trying
to listen about in my communiontime with him around scripture,
(14:23):
of even his will for how hewants to meet me in scripture.
And so uh the books I'm readinguh in scripture, uh I'm
listening to God on how to readthem.
But unless I get ask God, howare you coming to me, I'm just
doing a plan.
I've written down, you know,someone suggested to me.
But even that, I'm listening toGod about my time alone with him
(14:43):
and how it's to unfold.
And how, you know, I have ageneral practice of silence, you
know, 20 minutes a day.
Uh, but that extends sometimeslonger, sometimes shorter, but
even during a day, but my prayertime, I'm listening to the
Father's invitation to me withhim.
And then in my meetings, I havewith people.
I mean, Jerry and I had ameeting yesterday, uh, and I
have team meetings occasionally.
(15:05):
And uh what to focus on if I'mgiving direction to that team
meeting or what am I bringing tothat team meeting, I'm listening
to God before I walk in, becauseit could be issues of
development.
Maybe I'm we're supposed to bedoing some development with God,
maybe it's supposed to be moreof a family time or a prayer
time.
Maybe it's a strategicdiscussion around a certain
issue, long-term, short term,midterm, but even listening to
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God about going into a meetingwith a person one-on-one or with
your team.
My to-do list, I have a to-dolist.
Every Sunday night, I or Sundaynight I look at, I make a to-do
list for the week and uh look atmy calendar.
And but every day I'm looking atthat to-do list and I bring it
before the Lord and I say, God,how are you coming to me?
What any any additionaldirection you want to give me as
(15:51):
I move through this day, anyadjustments you want to make.
So I'm listening with my to-dolist every day.
Um, and uh it's that listeningthat informs the day.
And then even Jerry and ourfamily, uh I'm listening.
God, how are you coming throughour marriage and our
relationship?
(16:11):
Obviously, being a oneness andsign and wonder with her is uh
uh a biblical thing.
And it's it's not one afterJesus, my highest priority of my
life.
But how God, how are youinviting me to cultivate a
greater oneness with Jerry?
How are you coming to me throughher right now?
Um, but I don't want to miss hispromptings coming through our
(16:32):
relationship either, in terms ofdirection.
And then finally, what I'mreading, um, I love reading.
I love learning.
Uh, and I believe readingbroadly is very important for
any leader, in fact, anyfollower of Jesus.
Uh, and so I, you know, love toread broadly.
But actually, what am I reading?
And how deeply am I meant toread this?
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Is it meant to be a skim?
Is it God inviting me toactually pause?
Uh, because we read differentarticles and books in different
ways, even a podcast we listento.
Do I listen to a podcast while Iwalk today, or do I just be
silent before the Lord, or do Iactually listen to Scripture?
But I'm always asking God, howare you coming to me uh through
what I'm reading?
What's your invitation to me?
(17:13):
What are you saying to me?
I'm doing discernment even inthat uh because I don't want to
miss his promptings.
My life is listening to Jesus.
So let me just mention threeessential practices or
components of listening uh thatI want to invite you to consider
uh in your own listening andhope that prompts you by the
grace of God to mature into adeeper, better listener of
(17:37):
Jesus.
So the first is to embrace yourlimits, uh and just embracing
your limits as a human being.
Uh we all have limits.
I mean, limits are a gift fromGod.
John the Baptist was very awareof his limited ministry and
calling uh and his purpose,which was to, you know, to
behold the Lamb of God who takesaway the sins of the world.
(17:59):
But he knew his ministry had togo down, had to had to decrease
so Jesus could increase.
And he was able to say in one ofmy favorite verses in John 3,
27, a person can receive onlywhat is given to him or her from
heaven.
A person can receive only what'sgiven to them from heaven.
And so we've been entrusted,each of us, with a life, a
particular life or at a momentin history, in a particular
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place in the world.
And uh, but these all come withlimits, severe limits.
Uh and when we say yes tooquickly without discernment, uh,
when we act without pausing topray and and commune with God
and ask him, we take on morethan we can sustain.
Uh we see an open door, say, oh,let's go for that open door, but
(18:44):
we without, we want to maximizeour, again, our talents, but
without um actually listening,we end up in places that we
realize, oh no, this wasn't thebest thing, use of my time.
Uh so discernment requiresembracing limits, just like
Jesus embraced tremendous limitsin his short three-year
(19:05):
ministry.
So, as a reminder for me of mylimits, I draw on uh astronomy,
the massiveness of the universeand my smallness in it.
And I've mentioned before, Ihave a um a big picture in my
office here of a pale blue dot,uh Voyager 1, which uh in 1960,
(19:27):
1990, as this Voyager traveledfour billion miles from Earth,
uh, it turned the camera backtowards Earth before it left our
solar system.
And you could see Earth on ascattered little sunbeam, a
little blue, a pale blue dot.
It's a whole book called ThePale Blue Dot.
And the astronomer Carl Sagancalled it the pale blue dot.
(19:48):
But it just reminds me of mysmallness in this vast universe.
And you and I are very small inthis vast universe.
What we think is a great idea inthe bigness of God is not
necessarily a great idea.
I love Romans 11, 33.
Oh, the um um uh the depth andthe breadth of the wisdom and
(20:14):
the knowledge of God.
Uh you know, he got so massive.
I mean, and so he sees thingsthat we just could never see.
That's why listening is soimportant.
God wants to direct your steps,he wants to direct my steps.
Uh, but limits offer us a lot ofgifts.
They they protect us, they keepus grounded, they uh break our
(20:37):
self-will that we think we'reactually God.
Uh they're one of the primaryways that we grow in wisdom.
And they actually, limits giveus direction and and and places
to go.
And we encounter God in limitsin other ways, other places, in
other ways we wouldn't ever seehim.
And uh the one thing you can besure about, the spiritual
journey uh is not going to bewhat you think it is.
(20:58):
Uh and uh what you think isgoing to happen will not happen.
I like what Augustine once wrotein the fifth century.
If you think you understand God,you don't.
Uh it's not God.
If you think you understand God,it is not God, you understand.
He's much bigger than even that.
So it so limits is a verycritical component of the
sermon.
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But not only limits, but alsothe issue of spiritual freedom,
which Ignatius of Loyola in the1500s called indifference.
Uh, and um, which is means I'mI'm totally I'm free to I'll do
whatever God wants.
I I'm not holding on toanything.
But I like Meister Eckhart whocalled it detachment.
And I like the word detachmentbecause it's a little more, you
(21:39):
know, indifference ordetachment, not a cold
detachment of a tax collector ora judge, uh, but actually it's a
warm, loving union with God.
It's it's detaching to attach.
It's it's losing your life, asJesus said, in order to find it.
Uh that was, you know, andEckhart in the this is Eckhart
wrote this in the 1100s.
I don't Lot about, you know, tofollow Jesus requires spiritual
(22:03):
freedom.
He called it detachment,Ignatius called it indifference,
which means I don't hold on toanything but Jesus.
And the example that Eckhartloved was Mary, you know, the
mother of Jesus.
And because Mary received Jesusinto herself and she was fully
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surrendered.
I am the Lord's servant.
May it be to me as you have willas you desire.
May it be to me according toyour word, literally, is what
she said.
And so she she was surrendered,and she surrendered all of her
reputation or uh her plans,being married to Joseph at that
time.
He was she was betrothed and shegoes on this journey.
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She has no idea where it'sgoing, but she's receiving the
Lord, and she is totally, she'sa she is the example of God
coming in and through a personwho is detached, who is
spiritually free.
And she's treasuring things inher heart along the way of this
journey of raising Jesus, butshe doesn't fully understand it.
Just like we don't fullyunderstand all that God's doing.
(23:09):
And so practically what thatmeans is, you know, I have goals
and you have goals, but weapproach them in direction, but
we release any attachment to anygoal, uh, any outcome.
Uh we're we are, in a sense, weare uh uh what's the word?
We're detached to activism.
We're active for God, but we'redetached.
We're we're we recognize it's inhis hands.
(23:32):
Uh and we don't, he, God knows.
We can't predict what's going tohappen.
He knows.
But we're open to the unfoldingof events.
We're we're open to theunfolding of circumstances
around us.
We we we we in a sense we uh weaccept it.
Uh we don't we trust God'sorchestrating all things for
good, uh, for our good, hisglory, the world's good.
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And uh so we're prayerful not toget what we want.
Our goal is not what we want,our goal is what God wants.
And we surrender our will.
And the core issue we alwaysknow is the breaking of our will
and surrender to his will.
Just what Jesus consistently didthroughout his ministry.
He surrenders his will to thefathers.
Sometimes it was quitedifficult, like in the Garden of
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Gethsemane.
He is sweating drops of blood.
Uh and uh he's saying, Oh God,not my will, but your will be
done three times.
It says he's praying that, whichmeans he's anguishing on that.
But it's in that place of thatwrestling that it gets clear to
him what his will is and whatthe father's will is, and he he
surrenders.
And that's that's spiritualfreedom.
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And it's a requirement todiscern discernments.
If you've got a plan, and God,God's got to do that plan,
you're really not discerningyour God's kind of your personal
assistant.
He works for you, not the otherway around.
So I want to, I'm seekingspiritual freedom, not simply
so.
I'm I'm I'm I'm embracing mylimits, but I'm also seeking
daily to live in a place offreedom.
(24:57):
That's why, again, silence andstillness is so critical.
Uh that was the turning pointfor me.
So it's emotional health and acontemplative spirituality.
We need both.
I embrace limits.
I'm listening to God, I'll tellyou a second, my third one,
about through my emotions, butI'm surrendering my will to his
will.
And I don't know if there's away to do it without a
(25:18):
contemplative dimension to yourlife.
Silence and stillness andrhythms.
And that's why I talk a lotabout Sabbaths and daily offices
and developing a rule of life.
And uh, that's why we'reconsistently encouraging you and
other pastors and leaders, geton this journey we call
emotionally healthy discipleshipand check out the the day-by-day
(25:38):
daily office books.
Uh, get into the course, theschool of emotionally healthy
leadership.
But uh look to our website forresources.
We want to serve you to listenbetter.
But then there's a third verykey component besides limits and
spiritual freedom, and I call itlistening to the movements uh of
our emotions, the inside of us,consolations and desolations,
(26:00):
what's given me life, what'sgiven me death, because God's
living inside of me.
One of the amazing things of theNew Testament is the God of the
universe lives inside humanbeings like me and you, and he
speaks to us.
Now, I'm not talking aboutissues like, you know, sin, you
know, going against scripture.
No, we, of course, we'recommitted to scripture, but
there's lots of issues that doI, do I take this invitation?
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Do I, do I move to thisneighborhood?
Do I take this job or thisministry?
That's discerning between two,in a sense, good things, but
what's God have for you?
And so I've got to be listeningto the movements of my heart.
That's why feeling and listeningto our emotions is so critical.
And this is a whole largeteaching on uh the examine on
(26:42):
constellations, desolations, andhow do we discern God's will?
But learning to interpret andthese movements inside of us of
God, the Spirit, through ouremotional world, through our
feelings of death and feelingsof life, uh, is critical to
listening to his voice.
And that's something few of ushave learned much about, but
(27:02):
indispensable.
It's been part of the globalchurch for 2,000 years, needs to
become part of our lives aswell.
So we need to slow down.
Just imagine this.
Instead of moving quickly toseize opportunities, imagine
yourself pausing to pray andwait for clarity or
confirmation.
Imagine not being anxious.
(27:23):
Imagine not being scattered,imagine not being overloaded.
And imagine yourself calm andfree and anchored and content.
Imagine yourself not dependenton certain outcomes or certain
data to feel like, okay, I'mdoing good.
But imagine paying attention tothe Holy Spirit's inner peace
(27:46):
and his disturbances inside ofyou and following him.
Imagine not becoming captivatedby what appears to be successful
for other people.
And imagine yourself rooted andanchored in your unique calling
and place in God's world andjust joyful in that.
And imagine assuming, notassuming that your best ideas
(28:08):
are from God, but imaginesurrendering even those best
ideas to God.
And then imagine silence beingyour foundation of how you
operate.
Imagine not feeling like, oh,this is a waste of time or
unproductive.
And imagine valuing silence as ameans to slow you down and do
discernment.
And then finally, imagine notgetting clarity through research
(28:33):
and strategy meetings.
And imagine yourself gettingclarity through scripture,
through the Holy Spirit, andwise counsel.
Listen, God's more important inyou growing in this than you
are.
Yes, that is the good news.
You know, Jesus said, I will,you know, I'm the good shepherd.
My sheep hear my voice, I knowthem and they follow me.
(28:54):
So so God says, as he says inPsalm 32, I will teach you and
guide you in the way that youshould go.
It's a great verse.
But don't be like the horse ormule stubborn.
So God's going to show you.
He's more interested in growingyou into a man or woman of
discernment who can who joyfullyjust do his will than you are.
That's the great news.
(29:14):
So let me invite you as we closehere to relax in Jesus.
To relax in Jesus.
Now let yourself be held byJesus.
That's that's the uh the word uhtext in one of my one of the
great texts in the Gospel ofJohn is uh John 6, 28 and 29,
where they ask Jesus, what mustwe do to do the work that God
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requires?
And Jesus said, the work of Godis this, to be to believe in the
one he has sent.
Literally, it means to betrusting in the one he has sent.
And I love the trans translationof one great scholar who said,
it means to relax.
It's like being held by the onehe has sent, by Jesus.
And the invitation of really adiscernment is relaxing in
(29:56):
Jesus, letting ourselves be heldby him.
Uh could there anything, couldthere be anything else more
important?
So, whatever you're carryingtoday, whatever decision's in
front of you, uh think of it.
Luke, John 6, what is the workof God for you and for me today?
It's to relax in the one he hassent, to trust the one he has
(30:19):
sent.
Let yourself be held by him,listen to his voice, and follow
him.
It is the place of life.
All right, everybody.
God bless you.
It's been great to be with you.
I hope you've enjoyed this asmuch as I've enjoyed giving this
podcast.
Blessings to you.
Have a wonderful, wonderful day.
Hi, my name is Pete Scoaro.
Once again, I want to welcomeyou to the Emotionally Healthy
Leader podcast.
Our topic today is reversalnumber three: moving from our
best ideas to discerning God'svoice, moving from our best
ideas to discerning God's voice.
Now, as I said earlier inprevious podcasts, I've been
(00:25):
working on a book which I'vejust completed, The Emotionally
Healthy Success, for the lastthree and a half years.
And at the core of this book isa biblical theology of success
from the life of Jesus, ofcourse.
And at the core is a portion ofthe book about four great
reversals of how Jesus totallydismantles our earth's
(00:47):
understanding of success andbrings us into a vision and
experience of his kingdom.
It's really difficult for us toreceive it in the 21st century
West.
And I'm doing these four reverradical reversals because they
deserve such a wider treatmentbeyond what I can actually put
in the book.
And they're so important for ustoday.
(01:07):
Because Jesus offers us akingdom radically different from
the world around us in terms ofwhat we consider success.
It's not about making some smalladjustments or adding a few
spiritual disciplines to ourlife or adjusting our leadership
strategies.
It's much deeper.
It's a series of radicalreversals and it's a decisive
(01:28):
shift.
It's a jolt from everythingwe've considered.
Okay, this is the way I shouldbe living my life, but it's a
path to joy.
It is a path to freedom.
It is the path to the light,easy yoke of Jesus.
It's and so I've talked aboutreversal one in previous
podcasts, moving from prayer forresults to prayer for communion.
(01:51):
And then we talked about in thelast podcast, the reversal
number two, which is moving fromcharisma to weakness and limits.
And now today is reversal numberthree, moving from our best
ideas to discerning God's voice.
So the word listen or hearingfrom God is over fifty is found
over 1,500 times in scripture.
(02:13):
But the problem is it's easierto work for God than actually
listen to Him.
And uh that's why this the mostimportant question you could be
asking all the time is what'sGod saying?
How's God coming to me?
How is he leading me right now?
My first 17 years as a as aJesus follower and uh my early
years as a pastor, my firstseven, eight years, six, seven
years as a cur of a as a pastor,uh, I spent my time leading for
(02:37):
Jesus, but I wasn't actuallylistening to him.
I wasn't really trained in that.
Uh my prayer life was mostlyintercession.
The understanding was, ofcourse, we're obeying scripture.
We've got the Great Commission,build God's church, and I want
to steward my gifts was theunderstanding.
I've got gifts, and I want tomaximize the use of these gifts,
multiply five talents to tentalents, etc., uh, and advance
(03:01):
God's kingdom.
And so I would seizeopportunities.
That's what I was taught.
Look for open doors.
Where's, you know, where's aplace I could maximize uh the
use of gifts, talent, resources,people uh to advance God's
kingdom and do it.
Uh and I I got a friend uhrecently said to me as he was
retiring, I want from his formaljob, I want to maximize the use
(03:25):
of my life experience for God.
And uh I said to him, that's notreally the first question, how
to maximize and steward, juststeward your gifts.
The issue is what's God sayingto you.
That's the best use of yourgifts and talent, is how is God
speaking to you in hisdirection?
Because what we think isstrategic may not be at all what
(03:48):
God thinks is strategic.
And uh, in fact, I was I I'mwith pastors often and I I
talked to them about, you know,how talking about your prayer
life and how much of your prayerlife is actually listening.
And for the most part, it it'sspeaking, it's talking, it's
intercession.
And uh one pastor said it to merecently, this this time just
recently said to me, nope, my myprayer time is intercession.
(04:11):
I I people give me prayerrequests, uh I read scripture,
and then I I'm praying for themone by one by one.
I said, What about listening?
What about being still beforethe Lord and listening to what
he's saying to you?
And he said, It's really, I'mnot good at that.
It's not really, uh it's notsomething I I learned.
And so that I it's very hard forme, silence.
(04:32):
My mind gets distracted, I don'tthink it's for me.
And we talked about just theirony that we could be leading
for Jesus, an entire church,hundreds, if not thousands, of
people, and yet I don't actuallylisten to Jesus for direction.
Um I'm I've got too much to dofor him to actually do that.
(04:54):
And it's just so ironic thatit's almost like this isn't the
core of the curriculum.
Because think about what couldbe more important than not just
communing with Jesus, thenlistening to him and following
his voice versus our best ideas.
So this is this is revolutionaryuh to move this reversal from
(05:15):
your best ideas to actuallydiscerning his voice.
Now, think of that.
This would this was such achallenge for the 12 disciples
uh as they followed Jesus andwere intent on listening to his
voice.
And over and over again, we findthem obtuse.
We find them not listening.
They have their own preconceivedmotion, notion of what the
(05:38):
Messiah should be doing.
Over and over again, he'stalking to them about the cross,
the crucifixion, uh, and they'rejust not getting it.
They're they're thinking totallydifferently.
And they actually oppose Jesusin so many moments because
they've got their best ideas.
I mean, just think that one ofthe greatest stories of this is
the Mount of Transfiguration,where Jesus goes up to a
(06:01):
mountain.
We see him constantly going tothe Father to pray.
And Elijah and Moses appear,he's transfigured before them.
And Peter, James, and John, hisleadership team, they're with
him.
And they see all this.
And Peter uh is observing this,especially in the Luke version
of the transfiguration.
He sees that uh Moses and Elijahare leaving, and he he gets
(06:26):
anxious.
And so he makes a plan.
He goes, Lord, uh, it's good forus to be here.
Let's build three booths.
Let he makes a plan.
Let's basically capture thismoment.
We we can build something herethat the that the multitudes can
come to.
We can build your kingdom thisway.
Uh and and his anxiety to makesure the moment's not lost, he
(06:48):
does something.
He makes a plan.
But then a cloud comes fromheaven and says, and the father
speaks, says, listen to him,listen to Jesus.
Uh but it's just so hard becausePeter's got his own plans.
And we see this again again,even in the um in the arrest of
Jesus, where uh Jesus is goingto be telling them he's gonna
(07:10):
get arrested, he's gonna be ontrial, he's gonna be crucified,
then he's gonna rise from thedead.
But they just can't hear it.
And Peter in particular, and sowhen he gets arrested, uh,
everyone flees.
Peter grabs a, before thatfleeing, he grabs a sword and he
cuts off the high priest'sservant's ear.
He gets violent.
(07:31):
And Jesus said, I could havecalled 12 legions of angels to
stop this, but uh, he's he'swrestled in prayer, he's doing
the Father's will.
Peter's got his own best ideas.
And I I relate to Peter, I getit.
I've got so many ideas of my ownof what I think would be best
for God in his kingdom, and Iknow you do as well.
And so this this cuts to thecore of what it means to not
(07:55):
just lead for Jesus, what itmeans to follow Jesus, because
it's so different than our ourown thoughts.
And again, uh, without thinking,we end up in places we don't
want to be.
And so we all want a spirituallife.
Everybody wants a spirituality,but we just want to be in charge
of it.
And we want it to unfoldaccording to a certain way and a
(08:15):
certain timetable.
And uh, but the the Jesus makesit clear that to follow him,
it's not doing what we want, butit's doing what he says.
And uh that's why listening toJesus and discerning what Jesus
is saying and doing is moreimportant than any project, any
cause, any person uh in theworld.
(08:36):
There's nothing more important.
Uh, but this is a deeplistening.
Uh, this is something welearned, we tune in our ears to,
uh, so that his word actuallyexplodes with power inside of
us.
So, and remember, one of the oneof the central parables, uh,
foundational parables of all theparables is the famous parable
(08:57):
of the sower and the seed, whereJesus talks about listening, he
who has ears to hear it, let himhear.
And he describes four types ofsoil.
And remember, the first soil issoil on the path that the devil
just comes and takes away theword.
They hear it, but it never evengets into the soil.
The second soil is a rocky soil,but it says because of thorns,
they receive it with joy, but itdies.
(09:19):
It doesn't, it it it getschoked.
And it says because in times oftesting, and testing is is
refers to uh testing is whenwhen things are going terrible
and we have the world itdifficulties, severe trials, we
wonder where God is.
These are testings, and andwhere where the word is meant to
go deeper into us, not be not bechoked.
(09:40):
And then the third soil is thethorny soil where the word gets
choked, they don't listenbecause it says three things the
uh worry, the worries of theworld, the riches of the world,
and the pleasures of life.
They they actually uh it gets itdoesn't mature, it doesn't grow.
But the good good soil, only oneof the four soils, is a good
soil.
They retain that this personsare persons who retain it and by
(10:02):
persevering produce 30, 60,100fold.
It's so much fruitfulness flows.
So, so, and this is the key,Jesus says, He who has ears to
hear, let him hear.
And so we want to be good soil,we want to be great listeners,
uh, so this so we can be bearingfruit for for decades in our
life.
So we learn this from Jesus,first of all, because Jesus
(10:24):
practiced discernment with theFather.
He said, I only do what I seethe Father doing.
And we see him constantly tuninginto the Father, moving away to
pray, so he could be faithful tothe Father's voice and will in
the face of all these competingpressures.
You and I have so manytemptations, things pulling at
(10:46):
us, many good things.
And thus, like Jesus, we want tolearn to listen.
So we see it really most clearlyin the wilderness, in the
temptations uh of the desertwith the devil when Jesus is
there for 40 days and 40 nights.
And and they just capture sowell our struggle with
listening.
Because you remember that thedevil comes and says to Jesus,
(11:07):
tell these stones to becomebread.
And so it's as a voice coming tohim.
Now, in some cases, it's aninternal voice to us.
We hear these voices, you know,do this.
Uh tell these stones to becomebread and and uh you know, use
your gifts.
You know, you can solve this,you know, take charge, do
something.
Uh, you can't move a parked car.
But Jesus resisted that voice.
And uh he says, you know, humanscannot live by bread alone, but
(11:29):
by every word that proceeds outof the mouth of God.
And uh and he rejects this,this, in a sense, getting
popular with people by turningthese stones to bread, which he
could have done.
Uh and again, that was beingpopular and loved by other
people was so uh so foundationalto the whole first century, not
just in the 21st century, withsocial media and getting likes.
(11:52):
It it was it was the dominantway the world has functioned
since the beginning.
We want to be liked and affirmedby people.
And uh Jesus talked about thePharisees are religious leaders,
everything they do is for peopleto see, and he rejected that.
He in he was able to discern theFather's voice and to say,
humans do not live by breadalone, but by every word that
proceeds out of the mouth ofGod.
(12:13):
What's interesting is that inhis communion with the Father
and His listening, he even knowsthe scripture that applies, it
comes alive to him, you know,from Deuteronomy 8.
We don't live by bread alone,uh, but by every word that
proceeds out of the mouth ofGod.
And the second temptation is insome ways very similar.
You know, throw yourself downfrom the temple and uh so people
(12:35):
will believe in you.
And Jesus, he doesn't, hedoesn't follow that voice uh to
act in that way.
And again, the scripture comesto him from Psalm 91, but he
doesn't do a spectacular miracleon demand.
Uh, he doesn't just do whatpeople are asking him to do.
And uh, you know, he renouncesthe idea of being great in the
(12:56):
world standards.
And then it's, you know, bowdown to me and worship me, and
I'll give you all the kingdomsof the world, the devil says.
And and Jesus quotes again, he'squoting scripture, worship the
Lord your God and him alone.
But he he's hearing the Father'svoice about, no, you you've got
a the path is the crucifixion,the pad, you got a whole path in
front of you, and this is ashortcut.
Don't take it.
And uh, he doesn't take theshortcut.
(13:17):
And discernment, he only acts ashe hears the father's voice.
He refuses to act from the otherfrom voices, other voices.
Now we have a lot of othervoices coming at us all the
time.
And uh, but discernment of theFather's voice was essential,
was for Jesus.
If it was essential and centralto Jesus, how central and
(13:40):
essential is discerning God'svoice to us?
Let me just take a moment andjust how practical this is uh
for our everyday lives.
I'll give you four examples frommy own life that pretty much are
daily.
Um, first of all, even my timewith God.
You know, God, how how I'masking the question, God, uh,
you know, how are you coming tome in scripture and in silence
(14:03):
today?
Um even the ling how what I doin scripture, of lingering over
a passage or a text and what I'mreading in scripture.
So I'm I'm in the book of Lukeagain, and and God just has me,
you know, he has me stop atcertain passages and I'm trying
to listen about in my communiontime with him around scripture,
(14:23):
of even his will for how hewants to meet me in scripture.
And so uh the books I'm readinguh in scripture, uh I'm
listening to God on how to readthem.
But unless I get ask God, howare you coming to me, I'm just
doing a plan.
I've written down, you know,someone suggested to me.
But even that, I'm listening toGod about my time alone with him
(14:43):
and how it's to unfold.
And how, you know, I have ageneral practice of silence, you
know, 20 minutes a day.
Uh, but that extends sometimeslonger, sometimes shorter, but
even during a day, but my prayertime, I'm listening to the
Father's invitation to me withhim.
And then in my meetings, I havewith people.
I mean, Jerry and I had ameeting yesterday, uh, and I
have team meetings occasionally.
(15:05):
And uh what to focus on if I'mgiving direction to that team
meeting or what am I bringing tothat team meeting, I'm listening
to God before I walk in, becauseit could be issues of
development.
Maybe I'm we're supposed to bedoing some development with God,
maybe it's supposed to be moreof a family time or a prayer
time.
Maybe it's a strategicdiscussion around a certain
issue, long-term, short term,midterm, but even listening to
(15:28):
God about going into a meetingwith a person one-on-one or with
your team.
My to-do list, I have a to-dolist.
Every Sunday night, I or Sundaynight I look at, I make a to-do
list for the week and uh look atmy calendar.
And but every day I'm looking atthat to-do list and I bring it
before the Lord and I say, God,how are you coming to me?
What any any additionaldirection you want to give me as
(15:51):
I move through this day, anyadjustments you want to make.
So I'm listening with my to-dolist every day.
Um, and uh it's that listeningthat informs the day.
And then even Jerry and ourfamily, uh I'm listening.
God, how are you coming throughour marriage and our
relationship?
(16:11):
Obviously, being a oneness andsign and wonder with her is uh
uh a biblical thing.
And it's it's not one afterJesus, my highest priority of my
life.
But how God, how are youinviting me to cultivate a
greater oneness with Jerry?
How are you coming to me throughher right now?
Um, but I don't want to miss hispromptings coming through our
(16:32):
relationship either, in terms ofdirection.
And then finally, what I'mreading, um, I love reading.
I love learning.
Uh, and I believe readingbroadly is very important for
any leader, in fact, anyfollower of Jesus.
Uh, and so I, you know, love toread broadly.
But actually, what am I reading?
And how deeply am I meant toread this?
(16:53):
Is it meant to be a skim?
Is it God inviting me toactually pause?
Uh, because we read differentarticles and books in different
ways, even a podcast we listento.
Do I listen to a podcast while Iwalk today, or do I just be
silent before the Lord, or do Iactually listen to Scripture?
But I'm always asking God, howare you coming to me uh through
what I'm reading?
What's your invitation to me?
(17:13):
What are you saying to me?
I'm doing discernment even inthat uh because I don't want to
miss his promptings.
My life is listening to Jesus.
So let me just mention threeessential practices or
components of listening uh thatI want to invite you to consider
uh in your own listening andhope that prompts you by the
grace of God to mature into adeeper, better listener of
(17:37):
Jesus.
So the first is to embrace yourlimits, uh and just embracing
your limits as a human being.
Uh we all have limits.
I mean, limits are a gift fromGod.
John the Baptist was very awareof his limited ministry and
calling uh and his purpose,which was to, you know, to
behold the Lamb of God who takesaway the sins of the world.
(17:59):
But he knew his ministry had togo down, had to had to decrease
so Jesus could increase.
And he was able to say in one ofmy favorite verses in John 3,
27, a person can receive onlywhat is given to him or her from
heaven.
A person can receive only what'sgiven to them from heaven.
And so we've been entrusted,each of us, with a life, a
particular life or at a momentin history, in a particular
(18:22):
place in the world.
And uh, but these all come withlimits, severe limits.
Uh and when we say yes tooquickly without discernment, uh,
when we act without pausing topray and and commune with God
and ask him, we take on morethan we can sustain.
Uh we see an open door, say, oh,let's go for that open door, but
(18:44):
we without, we want to maximizeour, again, our talents, but
without um actually listening,we end up in places that we
realize, oh no, this wasn't thebest thing, use of my time.
Uh so discernment requiresembracing limits, just like
Jesus embraced tremendous limitsin his short three-year
(19:05):
ministry.
So, as a reminder for me of mylimits, I draw on uh astronomy,
the massiveness of the universeand my smallness in it.
And I've mentioned before, Ihave a um a big picture in my
office here of a pale blue dot,uh Voyager 1, which uh in 1960,
(19:27):
1990, as this Voyager traveledfour billion miles from Earth,
uh, it turned the camera backtowards Earth before it left our
solar system.
And you could see Earth on ascattered little sunbeam, a
little blue, a pale blue dot.
It's a whole book called ThePale Blue Dot.
And the astronomer Carl Sagancalled it the pale blue dot.
(19:48):
But it just reminds me of mysmallness in this vast universe.
And you and I are very small inthis vast universe.
What we think is a great idea inthe bigness of God is not
necessarily a great idea.
I love Romans 11, 33.
Oh, the um um uh the depth andthe breadth of the wisdom and
(20:14):
the knowledge of God.
Uh you know, he got so massive.
I mean, and so he sees thingsthat we just could never see.
That's why listening is soimportant.
God wants to direct your steps,he wants to direct my steps.
Uh, but limits offer us a lot ofgifts.
They they protect us, they keepus grounded, they uh break our
(20:37):
self-will that we think we'reactually God.
Uh they're one of the primaryways that we grow in wisdom.
And they actually, limits giveus direction and and and places
to go.
And we encounter God in limitsin other ways, other places, in
other ways we wouldn't ever seehim.
And uh the one thing you can besure about, the spiritual
journey uh is not going to bewhat you think it is.
(20:58):
Uh and uh what you think isgoing to happen will not happen.
I like what Augustine once wrotein the fifth century.
If you think you understand God,you don't.
Uh it's not God.
If you think you understand God,it is not God, you understand.
He's much bigger than even that.
So it so limits is a verycritical component of the
sermon.
(21:18):
But not only limits, but alsothe issue of spiritual freedom,
which Ignatius of Loyola in the1500s called indifference.
Uh, and um, which is means I'mI'm totally I'm free to I'll do
whatever God wants.
I I'm not holding on toanything.
But I like Meister Eckhart whocalled it detachment.
And I like the word detachmentbecause it's a little more, you
(21:39):
know, indifference ordetachment, not a cold
detachment of a tax collector ora judge, uh, but actually it's a
warm, loving union with God.
It's it's detaching to attach.
It's it's losing your life, asJesus said, in order to find it.
Uh that was, you know, andEckhart in the this is Eckhart
wrote this in the 1100s.
I don't Lot about, you know, tofollow Jesus requires spiritual
(22:03):
freedom.
He called it detachment,Ignatius called it indifference,
which means I don't hold on toanything but Jesus.
And the example that Eckhartloved was Mary, you know, the
mother of Jesus.
And because Mary received Jesusinto herself and she was fully
(22:26):
surrendered.
I am the Lord's servant.
May it be to me as you have willas you desire.
May it be to me according toyour word, literally, is what
she said.
And so she she was surrendered,and she surrendered all of her
reputation or uh her plans,being married to Joseph at that
time.
He was she was betrothed and shegoes on this journey.
(22:48):
She has no idea where it'sgoing, but she's receiving the
Lord, and she is totally, she'sa she is the example of God
coming in and through a personwho is detached, who is
spiritually free.
And she's treasuring things inher heart along the way of this
journey of raising Jesus, butshe doesn't fully understand it.
Just like we don't fullyunderstand all that God's doing.
(23:09):
And so practically what thatmeans is, you know, I have goals
and you have goals, but weapproach them in direction, but
we release any attachment to anygoal, uh, any outcome.
Uh we're we are, in a sense, weare uh uh what's the word?
We're detached to activism.
We're active for God, but we'redetached.
We're we're we recognize it's inhis hands.
(23:32):
Uh and we don't, he, God knows.
We can't predict what's going tohappen.
He knows.
But we're open to the unfoldingof events.
We're we're open to theunfolding of circumstances
around us.
We we we we in a sense we uh weaccept it.
Uh we don't we trust God'sorchestrating all things for
good, uh, for our good, hisglory, the world's good.
(23:53):
And uh so we're prayerful not toget what we want.
Our goal is not what we want,our goal is what God wants.
And we surrender our will.
And the core issue we alwaysknow is the breaking of our will
and surrender to his will.
Just what Jesus consistently didthroughout his ministry.
He surrenders his will to thefathers.
Sometimes it was quitedifficult, like in the Garden of
(24:14):
Gethsemane.
He is sweating drops of blood.
Uh and uh he's saying, Oh God,not my will, but your will be
done three times.
It says he's praying that, whichmeans he's anguishing on that.
But it's in that place of thatwrestling that it gets clear to
him what his will is and whatthe father's will is, and he he
surrenders.
And that's that's spiritualfreedom.
(24:36):
And it's a requirement todiscern discernments.
If you've got a plan, and God,God's got to do that plan,
you're really not discerningyour God's kind of your personal
assistant.
He works for you, not the otherway around.
So I want to, I'm seekingspiritual freedom, not simply
so.
I'm I'm I'm I'm embracing mylimits, but I'm also seeking
daily to live in a place offreedom.
(24:57):
That's why, again, silence andstillness is so critical.
Uh that was the turning pointfor me.
So it's emotional health and acontemplative spirituality.
We need both.
I embrace limits.
I'm listening to God, I'll tellyou a second, my third one,
about through my emotions, butI'm surrendering my will to his
will.
And I don't know if there's away to do it without a
(25:18):
contemplative dimension to yourlife.
Silence and stillness andrhythms.
And that's why I talk a lotabout Sabbaths and daily offices
and developing a rule of life.
And uh, that's why we'reconsistently encouraging you and
other pastors and leaders, geton this journey we call
emotionally healthy discipleshipand check out the the day-by-day
(25:38):
daily office books.
Uh, get into the course, theschool of emotionally healthy
leadership.
But uh look to our website forresources.
We want to serve you to listenbetter.
But then there's a third verykey component besides limits and
spiritual freedom, and I call itlistening to the movements uh of
our emotions, the inside of us,consolations and desolations,
(26:00):
what's given me life, what'sgiven me death, because God's
living inside of me.
One of the amazing things of theNew Testament is the God of the
universe lives inside humanbeings like me and you, and he
speaks to us.
Now, I'm not talking aboutissues like, you know, sin, you
know, going against scripture.
No, we, of course, we'recommitted to scripture, but
there's lots of issues that doI, do I take this invitation?
(26:20):
Do I, do I move to thisneighborhood?
Do I take this job or thisministry?
That's discerning between two,in a sense, good things, but
what's God have for you?
And so I've got to be listeningto the movements of my heart.
That's why feeling and listeningto our emotions is so critical.
And this is a whole largeteaching on uh the examine on
(26:42):
constellations, desolations, andhow do we discern God's will?
But learning to interpret andthese movements inside of us of
God, the Spirit, through ouremotional world, through our
feelings of death and feelingsof life, uh, is critical to
listening to his voice.
And that's something few of ushave learned much about, but
(27:02):
indispensable.
It's been part of the globalchurch for 2,000 years, needs to
become part of our lives aswell.
So we need to slow down.
Just imagine this.
Instead of moving quickly toseize opportunities, imagine
yourself pausing to pray andwait for clarity or
confirmation.
Imagine not being anxious.
(27:23):
Imagine not being scattered,imagine not being overloaded.
And imagine yourself calm andfree and anchored and content.
Imagine yourself not dependenton certain outcomes or certain
data to feel like, okay, I'mdoing good.
But imagine paying attention tothe Holy Spirit's inner peace
(27:46):
and his disturbances inside ofyou and following him.
Imagine not becoming captivatedby what appears to be successful
for other people.
And imagine yourself rooted andanchored in your unique calling
and place in God's world andjust joyful in that.
And imagine assuming, notassuming that your best ideas
(28:08):
are from God, but imaginesurrendering even those best
ideas to God.
And then imagine silence beingyour foundation of how you
operate.
Imagine not feeling like, oh,this is a waste of time or
unproductive.
And imagine valuing silence as ameans to slow you down and do
discernment.
And then finally, imagine notgetting clarity through research
(28:33):
and strategy meetings.
And imagine yourself gettingclarity through scripture,
through the Holy Spirit, andwise counsel.
Listen, God's more important inyou growing in this than you
are.
Yes, that is the good news.
You know, Jesus said, I will,you know, I'm the good shepherd.
My sheep hear my voice, I knowthem and they follow me.
(28:54):
So so God says, as he says inPsalm 32, I will teach you and
guide you in the way that youshould go.
It's a great verse.
But don't be like the horse ormule stubborn.
So God's going to show you.
He's more interested in growingyou into a man or woman of
discernment who can who joyfullyjust do his will than you are.
That's the great news.
(29:14):
So let me invite you as we closehere to relax in Jesus.
To relax in Jesus.
Now let yourself be held byJesus.
That's that's the uh the word uhtext in one of my one of the
great texts in the Gospel ofJohn is uh John 6, 28 and 29,
where they ask Jesus, what mustwe do to do the work that God
(29:35):
requires?
And Jesus said, the work of Godis this, to be to believe in the
one he has sent.
Literally, it means to betrusting in the one he has sent.
And I love the trans translationof one great scholar who said,
it means to relax.
It's like being held by the onehe has sent, by Jesus.
And the invitation of really adiscernment is relaxing in
(29:56):
Jesus, letting ourselves be heldby him.
Uh could there anything, couldthere be anything else more
important?
So, whatever you're carryingtoday, whatever decision's in
front of you, uh think of it.
Luke, John 6, what is the workof God for you and for me today?
It's to relax in the one he hassent, to trust the one he has
(30:19):
sent.
Let yourself be held by him,listen to his voice, and follow
him.
It is the place of life.
All right, everybody.
God bless you.
It's been great to be with you.
I hope you've enjoyed this asmuch as I've enjoyed giving this
podcast.
Blessings to you.
Have a wonderful, wonderful day.
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