Minerals Council urges partnerships to grow SA mining & Growthpoint says KZN remains a priority market

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
And now The Money Show with Stephen's credit on seven
oh two, let's walk at all.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you
by ABS of Corporates and investment banking, Balancing economic growth
with ecosystems. That's out. They're invested in your story. Good evening,
Welcome to the program. Eight minutes after six. I'm Stephen
Curtis and plenty to come tonight. I come to you
from Cape Town, the site of the mining in Daba.
I was involved in an event on the side of it,

(00:30):
and so many people coming up to me and saying
this is the busiest mining in data that they can
think of. There have been lots of people around. It's
one of those moments, you know when you arrive in
a place or you're in an area that you know
a little bit and you know roughly how long it
takes to get from one place to another. And one
way of looking at that now, even if you're not
actually going to the place yourself, to start of curiosity

(00:51):
is to jump onto your phone and go and do
a quick sort of navigation how long would it take
to get from here to there or from this place
to that place, and just by doing that, just by
looking basically at an uber app, you can see how
busy Cape Town is and so many people telling me
it's busier than they can remember. And this is Cape Town,
so you know what that can be like that city

(01:11):
bowl area when it really is exceptionally busy, not just
the mining and Darbor this week, but the State of
the Nation address later in the week as well, and
there are lots of conversations to have around that. So
just interesting to see that. I mean, you hope, and
it may well be that there's actually a lot more
interest in mining at the moment than really ever before

(01:32):
or certainly for a long time. And I'll tell you why.
I think that might be in a kind of era
of do I call it resource nationalism, certainly trade nationalism.
In some parts of the world, you're kind of in
a place where actually you do have to find a
space to control your own destiny, and that would be
one of the ways you do it. You need to
sign deals now, you need to get access to things now,

(01:54):
and certainly you think there'll be a little bit more investment.
So that was just an idle thought watching things from
slightly afar. Do you to speak Tom Zilimpton Johnney. He
gave a keynote to dress at the Mining and Darbor.
Today he's the CEO of the Minerals Council, and obviously
their relationship with government always becomes key to things, and
I think both he and government are sick of asking

(02:16):
answering questions about their relationship. On the other hand, when
we're not spending nearly enough money on exploration, it makes
sense to keep going. I've noticed one of the fascinating
problems I think of the moment. If you had to
give yourself this problem, what would you answer be? Here's
the problem. For years and years and years people have
made money by digging diamonds out of the ground. How

(02:37):
those diamonds made. They're made in a pipe. Do you
know what the pipe is called. It's called a kimber
Like pipe because the textbook example is actually in Kimberly
and they're made, as I'm sure you know, by one
hundred percent carbon in years upon years upon years upon
years of pressure. And basically it's a lump of coal

(02:57):
that's had a huge amount of pressure on it for
a very long time and now it's a diamond. The
problem is is that artificial diamonds are becoming stronger and
better and sort of they look exactly the same, and
could you rarely tell the difference?

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Now?

Speaker 2 (03:10):
I don't know if diamonds are still a girl's best friend,
but an artificial diamond might well be a slightly dacard
ly boyfriend's best friend. Either way. The fact that I
talk about that is all the beers marketing from years ago.
So how do you now try and sell real diamonds
in a world in which artificial diamonds are doing so well?

(03:32):
I mean, where do you even start? What do you
kind of cling to? I mean, that would be one
of the questions we'll hear from David fan vecon that
in a few moments. Also a little later, the mining
and Darbor itself will speak to the product director just
about how much interest they've seen and what their kind
of trends are that they're seeing before we move to

(03:54):
something completely different. And I'm sure you've seen this. You
might well have been traveling and seen this, which has
so many times. You'll go into a supermarket and another parts
of the world and you'll notice that there's a smart trolley. Well,
there's smart trolleys at checkers. Some of the branches and checkers,
one or two of them in Cape to other people
have tried them, and just checking in on that technology.
We'll speak to Jonathan Cherry from Cherry Flavor about that

(04:17):
a little later, looking forward to that conversation as well.
In growth Points, saying that they're going to invest more
in property in Qua Zula Natel. And that's another question
I'd like to put to you this evening if you
had to invest in property outside of the Western Cape,
I know now we feel about the Western Cape, but
outside of the Western Cape, where would you put it?

Speaker 4 (04:38):
So?

Speaker 2 (04:38):
I think there's probably some money in hard to be
a sport. I think near Twana, Pretoria, some parts of
joe Burg. Where else would you go? Some parts of them,
Puma Langa perhaps, but Qua Zula Natel. If you look
at where people are living sort of on the if
I can call it on the ridge, you know above
Durban almost more and more developed and there then that's

(05:01):
part of a kind of movement away from old style,
old fashioned CBDs. But certainly people putting money in very
interesting places at the moment. So seven two seven oh
two one seven oh two, where would you invest your
money in South Africa? In property outside of the Western Cape.
Growth point will tell us in an ury they've chosen
case then, but where would you put it? Oh double

(05:23):
one double A three oh seven oh two O two
one four four six oh five six seven and seven
two seven oh two one seven oh two. Also natural
diamonds or artificial diamonds doesn't really matter. Thirteen minutes after
six The Money Show.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
With Stephen krutiz Lion on ninety two point seven and
one O six FM streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

Speaker 5 (05:43):
Seven and DStv Channel eight five six.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, one of the big problems facing the mining industry
actually in Southern Africa at the moment is diamonds are
simply well not what they used to be. Artificial diamonds
are coming in a big way. I can't imagine many
people would be able to tell the difference at a glance.
Last year, the diamond industry signed what's called the Lunda
a Cord. The idea is that all of the companies

(06:08):
involved or give a proportion of their income around one
percent or so to coordinate the response of the diamond
mining industry to artificial diamonds. David from veg is a
mining unless someone who has been involved in the industry
in different ways for a while, David good evening. So
the minds involved are supposed to contribute to this fund,
they'll market real diamonds as opposed to artificial diamonds. It

(06:30):
sounds like a very tough ask to me.

Speaker 4 (06:33):
Well, I think, first and foremost, it's not just the
diamond companies, but also a number of diamond producing countries Angola,
but'swan On and maybe a Sera, Sierra Deon, Democratic Republic
of the Congo, the antab Diamond Center and the Divine
Multi Commodity Center and others. You know, so everyone is
supposed to contribute one percent of annual value of diamond

(06:56):
exports from producing countries, and only Angola and the Beers
have actually contributed, and each of them contributed eight million.
And that's so there's sixteen million dollars, which is peanuts
in this accord, you know, to create a council to
boost you know, natural diamonds as opposed to artificially produced diamonds.

(07:22):
The problem with diamonds is that there is an abundance
of diamonds in the world, and people didn't know that
that abundance was kept from the market by the Beers
until blood diamonds happened, you know, until the council was
set up to eliminate blood diamonds. After that point, the
Beers was able to award diamonds in Switzerland in big

(07:45):
mountains of diamonds. You can keep everybody on the planet.
The passible of diamonds actually, so they're not as rare
as people claim they are. Okay, and they say they're abundant.
As soon something is abundant in the market, it becomes valueless.
The other thing is, of course, that the world has
changed a lot. Women are no longer the objects of

(08:06):
desire that they used to be in the sixties and seventies,
when you could talk about diamonds are a girl's best friend.
Women actually object to that kind of objectification and so
and fewer of them are interested in That was the
market that was being targeted in being adorned with diamonds
by lovers and husbands and so on to indicate the

(08:28):
value of the husband and the property of the husband
being the woman. You know, Feminism and so ona has
changed all of that. It's no longer that world that
we used to live in of James Bond and so on,
where when we were in the nineteen sixties and seventies.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
So then the problem in a way for Southern Africa.
I mean, I'm not that concerned about the profits of
the beers, but I am concerned about the value chain,
the ecosystem that's grown up around it, the mines. I mean,
we have to be concerned about Botswana's economy, which faces
serious headwinds there youth unemployment is actually quite similar to
our own. So then I mean, is all of that

(09:05):
just going to go? And I have a horrible feeling
that if the world feels it was already conned by
the diamond industry, they might just think, well, there's no
real reason to go back to this product.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Well, I don't think it. There is real reason to
go back. And if we look at we did an
extensive study on Botswana and also on the western clines here, Honiclubay,
Alexanda Bay area areas and so on, and if we
look at canes here, it is it is a ruin.
If we look at honiclub Bay after one hundred years
of diamond mining in the area, honiclu Bay when I

(09:37):
was there, didn't even have an ATM or a bakery
or even a shop. You know, Alexander Bay looked in
awful condition. I did studies around to Rappa, Johnny and
let Nakane in Botswana. In those places even five ten
years ago already looked terrible. And the problem for Botswana
is this, Botswana got value from the mine our rough

(10:00):
diamonds and the export of rough diamonds.

Speaker 6 (10:03):
They didn't get any.

Speaker 4 (10:04):
Value from the retail sale of jewelry and things like that.
You know that. So the diamond pipeline made much more
money in Belgium, in Israel, in Dubai, in India, and
in Britain. You know, at one point Britain was the
biggest exporter of rough diamonds in the world. But I
didn't have a single diamond mine, and that that was

(10:24):
where the con actually happened. You know, we in Southern
Africa got very little value for the diamonds that we
are producing. Just recently, a major diamond was discovered in
in in you know, west of Pretoria, and the diamond
mine there. Sorry, my memory just slipped me for a minute.
But even that diamond, the value of that diamond will

(10:47):
not be realized in South Africa. It will be realized overseas.
You know, and so this is the problem with mining.
The value of minerals are not not realized here, they
are realized elsewhere. Our iron goes to China and Japan,
and we get cars back, and we pay much more
for the cars and the value of the iron that
we exported and so on. We don't actually beneficiate our

(11:09):
own cars. But the same thing with diamonds. We have
five thousand diamond cutters in this country, half of them
are unemployed. In Bombay they've got fifty thousand diamond cutters
and they're all they're all less than fifteen years old,
you know. And when I spoke to someone in Belgium
about diamond cutting and polishing and surely in manufacturing in

(11:30):
Southern Africa, he gave me the racist answer of oh,
blacks do not have the mathematical dexterity to cut and
polish diamonds.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
That's insane. I suppose. The other problem is that there's
nothing really that's mined. Along with times often you find,
you know, different sort of types of minerals are are.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
There's no bouquet of minerals with diamonds. Usually with diamonds
you get a vestos. It's not a very nons commodity
to have around even for the diamond to work, as
many people die from as best as the environment mining comes.
The other thing, of course is arsenic. Arsenic is very
common and that you know that impacts on the water

(12:13):
and so on. If you go to the diamond mines
in the Suta at the moment and go look at
the water there, it's just absolutely a probably.

Speaker 7 (12:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
So I mean I can't see anything that people, particularly
in Botswana, or anything that the industry could be repurposed towards,
which means Botswana really needs to think again. And I
mean that will have a big impact on us. It
will have a big impact on the Southern African region.

Speaker 8 (12:38):
Owest Stephen Stephen.

Speaker 4 (12:40):
In twenty fifteen we published a report in which we
showed that the World Band predicted that by twenty twenty
four diamonds will come to an end, especially in Botswana.
And you see the figures and the grass by Watswana
falls a bookust basically and we recommend it in twenty
fifteen already that Botswana needs to rapidly diversify. It's me
and it never did you know. And also it's being

(13:03):
part of the Customs Union in Southern Africa. South Africa
made it impossible for what's one of for example, to
start assembling cars or do other other things with their
diamond money. You know. So Basauana is in a bad
situation because it's very close to a sub imperial nation,
which is South Africa, which dominates all the economies around it,

(13:23):
extracts labor from all of them, but puts very little
back into them. You know, So Yasutu is not developing
because we used their human resources for more than one
hundred years. Southern Rozambique is not developing because we use
their human resources for more than one hundred years. We
used a lot of Batswana's human resources as well through
the migrant labor system. And of course now our minds

(13:45):
going into cursing and we are we are retrenching workers
in their tens of thousands, and they go back to
these labors sending areas where there's absolutely nothing for them
to do, and so they come back into South Africa,
somemaz im as and illegal miners.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
David from Veig thanks very much. Indeed, the mining analysts
really do appreciate the time so much to look at
when you look at the issue of diamond minds how
you actually try and resolve this. But it's also and
there's a much bigger, sort of parable warning lesson in
all of this. That's so much of what we're mining now,
so much of what we're exploring now, what we're exploring

(14:22):
for what we're considering mining in the near future, is
not going to last forever, and so we also need
to consider just what happens afterwards. So it really is,
you know, a very very big problem if you consider it.
I mean, it really is a major issue. How you
sort of work out what it is that you're going
to have to do, how you decide where you're going

(14:44):
to actually try and sort of you know, put different things.
I mean, at the same time, I suppose it really
is all about longer term planning. And this has been
one of the major problems is that you do need,
particularly in mining. It's not just the long term planning
about getting the things out of the ground, but it
is also about planning for afterwards. And when you hear,

(15:06):
as we do so often from the people who are
in the communities, who are in the communities, are that
are sort of in these places, then you know who
are left by the mining in dabor the you know
who are left by mining, then you really do need
to consider actually what it is that you can do

(15:27):
for them afterwards. So lots still consider when we look
at this particular issue. It's twenty three minutes now after
six o'clock the Money Show, the market. Gustav Schullenberg is
the portfolio manager at the old Mutual investment Group. Gustov.
Good evening, Just after trading closed for the day. A
JC update from Pick and Pay. This is for the

(15:49):
fifty two weeks so for the year to the end
of March. They like for like sales only a two
point nine percent. Obviously box are doing a little better
than that, but still not great for Pick and Pay.

Speaker 6 (16:01):
Yeah, good evening, Stephen.

Speaker 7 (16:03):
I suggest, yeah, they can pay brand itself if we
exclude Boxers. Seems to be uh and yeah, be struggling
in certain parts. You know, we see other food retailers
also struggling. But I think that environment is immensely competitive
at the moment, and with inflation coming down that that

(16:23):
often does hurt food retailers.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
It also suggests that the you know, the recovery that
they're supposed to be involved in. I mean, people are
going to ask more questions about that.

Speaker 7 (16:35):
Yeah, and and shelders should Like I said, all this
exclude Boxer, which seems to be doing pretty well. The
Campay is in a tough spot. They you know, they
had to kind of over the last two three years
do a lot of restructuring and capital raising and off
loaded stake in Boxer.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
It seems to.

Speaker 7 (16:56):
Be taking taking longer than the market expected to turn
the business around. And it's obviously a complex, complicated business
given that they've got franchisees and corporate stores and now
kind of this investment in Boxer. It has a lot
of things you have to get right at the same time,
and this consumer is is not as healthy as they

(17:20):
would like.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
It doesn't help obviously that they've got such strong competition
from you know who.

Speaker 7 (17:28):
Yeah, so this is the problem that I kind of
alluded to, and I mentioned the franchise and corporate store mix,
is when you're competing with these you know, under an
hour online deliveries coming from corporate stores, where they could
just roll it out in one fell swoop. A franchisee
who owns a business, it's not as easily convinced that

(17:51):
he needs to buy motorbikes and have the same specials
as a corporate store fifty miles away. So yeah, it is.
It is hard. The business model is changed into very
convenient sitting at home, getting all your stuff on a
Sunday afternoon before lunch and pick. Compass seemed to be
struggling to compete to that in the higher end.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
I mean. Also, price competition in the sector is relentless.
I mean, teckn Page internal setting price inflation was two
point seven percent, and they say, you know, food CPI
was four and a half. That's fine, But if I
remember correctly, I think shop Rights was about one point
two or something like that. I mean, And if it's
one thing to try and recover, to try and sort

(18:34):
of get back your market here, it's another to do
it against someone who can keep their prices so low.

Speaker 7 (18:40):
Yeah, so one hundred percent. That's the scale benefits and
kind of the benefits of the kind of decades of
investing that when times get tough, you know, you could
make it even tougher for your your competitors. So yeah,
like I said, food inflation is good for Inflation is

(19:00):
good for food retailers within reason, obviously, but when they
start having very low price increases or deflation. It becomes
a very very hard game. And obviously the big competitors
have the ability right now to keep prices low and
squeeze them. It's hard to turn around a business in

(19:21):
that environment. You know, It's much easier to turn a
business around when your consumers is doing well.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Bid Best Bank, they were going to sell well but
Best was going to sell Bidvest Bank to Access Bank
from Nigeria. It seems to have fallen through. I mean,
nothing worse than having a bank you don't want.

Speaker 7 (19:40):
Yeah bank, One can question kind of what the bank's
purpose is in the business. But it is unfortunate that
the cell fell through. We think it would have been
very good or the impact of the sale would have
been very good for the balance sheet of Bidvest, not
that they balance heat to stretch, but it would have

(20:00):
provided them with a lot of drought drder. So it's unfortunate.
But yeah, let's hope that they can find another buyer
who is who is keen on the.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Purchase.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
Good stuff, Thanks so much, Chris Stuff, Schoenberg's portfolio manager
at the old mutual investment group. You with the money show.
Bringing the time to six thirty.

Speaker 9 (20:25):
The Money Show, Stephen Cruts is brought to you by
Absolut Corporate and Investment Banking, Balancing economic growth with ecosystems.
That's how they've invested in your story.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Well, confirmation today about and this is bad news. You
might need to be sitting down, but I'm sure you
know this already about electricity prices and just more news
from nurser. You will recall, well, you might have tried
to put it out of your mind, frankly, that power
prices we're going to go up by five point six
three percent. Now they're going to go up by eight

(20:59):
point seven six percent? And why are you grown? Because
of Nursa, because of the mistake that they made. And frankly,
I think the communication around has been utterly terrible. If
I was in charge of a communications strategy, I'd have
done this an entirely different way. And frankly, I would
hold a press conference and apologize and keep apologizing because
people will feel better about you afterwards. The problem is

(21:20):
is that the next question some irritating person like me
would ask is well, what are you going to do
to fix it? And I don't know if NURSA can
really restore our confidence at this point. The bigger problem though,
of course, and you don't need me to tell you this,
because you know the point's being made so many times
when electricity goes up by nearly nine percent. All that

(21:42):
it does is encourage people who can to stop using
Eskom to go off the grid, to use it as
for a small amount of the day as they can
to get sola or whatever, stick it on their roof,
their garage, their car if they can, the dog if
it's had still. I mean, the whole point is that
it is just going to encourage all of us to

(22:03):
get off the grid as fast as we can, businesses, people,
the whole bit, and all of that has got to
be bad news over the longer term for ESKIM. Now
you can't go to Eskim and say, if you want
to survive charge less. But we're now at a point where, frankly,
it just can't go on like this, and everybody knows it.
And I was interested that Grehdham Mantasha, the Minister of

(22:23):
Mineral Resources and Petroleum, he and I agree on some
things but not on others. I think you'll agree that
he was saying today in fact, at the mining in
Darba that smelters need to also take some of the pain.
They can't expect government to basically be subsidizing them or
other electricity users to be subsidizing them. You know, this

(22:45):
whole issue and how difficult it's been. Eight out of
the sixty seven smelters in the country are currently operating.
And despite the fact that we produce what's at eighty
percent of the world's platinum and pretty much all of
it's chrome ferrochrome, you can't you know, it's not produced
here in the end as it goes into a smelter
somewhere else just because their electricity is cheaper. It's a major,

(23:05):
major issue. I thought that Mantasha had a very strong point.
Good to hear from you tonight on No. Seven two
seven two one seven.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Two The Lney Show with Stephen Krudis Live on ninety
two point seven and one six FM.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
NAP and DStv channel eight five.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Six seventeen minutes Now to seventh the time. Well, let's
return to the mining in Daba and of course the
tire the start to damning gold or gold prices at
record highs. Platinum as seems to be bouncing quite nicely.
We still don't have enough exploration here. Illegal mining kind
of still on the march. Bongani Martza is the senior
economist at at the Minerals Council South Africa. Bongani, good evening.

(23:48):
I know it's hugely busy for your organization, so thanks
for the time. I mean, has there been any progress
in miners in South Africa getting what they kind of
need and I mean from government and from society.

Speaker 10 (24:04):
Thank thank you, thank you for having me, and thank
you for the question. I think your questions regarding what
we we we need as minors. I can answer that
question by saying that I think it's a mixed picture.
To some extent we have gotten what we what we
wanted or what we want, but in other aspects not really.

(24:27):
And one such aspect, for example, would have liked competitive
electricity tariffs, but that's not necessarily what to appett in.
Of course, I think the guitarists have gone down from
double digit increases to single digits, but that's still way higher,
higher than inflation. Spire inflation spire inflation of is about

(24:48):
three point two or three point six last year. And
then we know that electricity tarists in this year and
the next year will average an increase of about eight ascent.
So that's that's not helping because it does not really
pushed our our competitive our competitiveness globally.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
M hmm. Yeah, so those I mean, is there anything
that is going right bo Gania over the last year.
I mean sometimes, I mean I realized, for example, the
Mineral Resources Development Bill has changed I think quite significantly.
And I also I mean the thing that has gone
right obviously is prices of some things which might but

(25:27):
not yet stimulate exploration investment.

Speaker 10 (25:31):
Yeah, it is true that there is a very good
positive correlation between higher prices, commodity crisis and exploration expenditure.

Speaker 6 (25:41):
That is that is that that that that is true.

Speaker 10 (25:46):
But let me that's maybe the answer a question as
to what have we really gotten as as as minors.
I must say that the development or introduction of the
new Cadasta, I think there's in some movements there and
that is quite key because it's going to reduce the
cost of exploration. You know, when when potential explorers want

(26:10):
to know the geology or the potential of any any
geological location. Having the cataster I think will will really
will really will really help in terms of the regulatory aspect.
For example, the MRD bill, I can just say that
they are discussions. It's not my my area. My colleague

(26:34):
who can answer that question directly, but my my, my,
My responsibility is really looking at the numbers in terms
of economics and saying it's it's a cetera that's got
a lot of potential. And that's our message really when
we're presenting the first spectation, because this morning, the message
is that it's a steter with so much potential in

(26:56):
terms of its contribution to the discuss in terms of
its contribution to employment creation and also the pairport and
forward linkage is mining can catalyze the local economics.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
So apart from electricity prices uh uh and apart from
sort of higher prices for golden platinum for example, what
else that could change, BUNGANI, could you see that would
really enable or inspire or ignite more investments in our
industry here in South Africa?

Speaker 6 (27:33):
Yeah, of course.

Speaker 10 (27:34):
The I think the issue of regulate policy and regulative
certainty is one key issue that has to be you know,
miners need a stable and predictable policy environment, that's for sure.
It's not just the minor issues that all investors, that's
what they would be crying for, to use the word

(27:55):
so so that's that that is key however for us
as well, just infrastructure infrastructure issues from electricity to rail
and port efficiencies. That that that that that those are
quite key ingredients for the step to realize its potential.
We are happy, of course that there has been improvements

(28:19):
on both both electricity as well as rail and ports,
but we're still we're still really at pre COVID pre
COVID levels, but we are certain that these improvements will
actually really really catalyze mining investments as well as exports.
I must say it is quite a bit disappointing, a

(28:42):
bit disappointing that exports total exports endings in twenty twenty
five we were lower nationalist so compared to twenty twenty four.
But I think the church actual going forward is quite
quite positive. Will look at as well as we look
at our export markets potential for growth this year, and

(29:06):
things are looking things are looking positive. There's one table
that we show in our debts and figures, and we're
also happy that Germany. Germany imports some of our bullions
as well. As the PGMs so so Germany has not
been growing in an encouraging way in the last few years,

(29:28):
but looking at twenty twenty five, I think they're gone
to register one point two percent growth in red TDT.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Bon Gani Motzap Thank you, senior economs at the Minerals
councilor say nine eleven minutes to seven has nfl zay
Ed is the mining in Daba, Director of Government and
Institutional Partnerships Zienup. Good evening. I mean before we get
to your specialty, certainly, just being in Capedon at the moment,
one gets the feeling this is a very big mining
in Darba. More people are are here than we've seen

(29:59):
in a while.

Speaker 11 (30:01):
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 12 (30:02):
I think the demand seems to have exploded this year.

Speaker 8 (30:04):
It's been Yeah, we've seen a.

Speaker 12 (30:06):
Huge rise in numbers. We won't have like official figures
until the end of the event, but definitely many more
than we predicted.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Is it just the price of commodities at the moment
or is there something else about it?

Speaker 12 (30:18):
I think that is definitely a factor. I think that
there's may be something more about it.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (30:23):
I tend to be a bit idealistic.

Speaker 8 (30:24):
About these things.

Speaker 12 (30:24):
But I think there's also a bit.

Speaker 11 (30:26):
Of as a renewed.

Speaker 12 (30:27):
Sense of energy that's really kind of contagious.

Speaker 8 (30:30):
At the moment.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
There will be no mining without idealism, Zeno. But I
think you know that the issue of I mean, you
talk about government and institutional partnerships and so often, and
we've been talking about the Minerals Council, you would have
heard the conversation about how you know people are a
bit weary of discussing the relationship with government. I feel
sympathy with it, but I do wonder, particularly in this

(30:55):
moment of kind of disruptions to global trade, that governments
acrosss the African continent have to really consider how they
can make it easier to mine in their jurisdiction than
anywhere else in South Africause dare I say it shouldn't
be any different.

Speaker 12 (31:11):
I mean, I honestly think that we're seeing a real shift.
I think our opening this morning really, I mean it
marked a really clear turning point I think in the
mining narrative for the continent.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
Specifically, we had a.

Speaker 11 (31:25):
Panel with.

Speaker 12 (31:28):
The CEOs of glen Or DRC, the CEO of Ivanhoe,
alongside the ministers we were talking about kind of government
industry alignment in practice, and I mean a lot of
them just highlighted how important constructive dialogue with government was and.

Speaker 11 (31:42):
How much that had changed, just even over.

Speaker 12 (31:44):
The past couple of years, the way that they resolve disputes,
the way that they look at working together, and I
think even bigger than that, the way that countries are
looking to work together. We're seeing so much more of
a focus.

Speaker 11 (31:55):
On regional frameworks. We're hosting a Sadak Ministerial Forum this
year for the first time, so I.

Speaker 12 (32:02):
Just it really does seem that. I also think that.

Speaker 11 (32:05):
Posts quite a big election year for the continent last year,
we're seeing lots of new ministers, new governments, new parties
who are just thinking about things in a much different way, moving.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Away from mining as the enemy or something to be
text to something else.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
Maybe.

Speaker 11 (32:22):
Yeah, I think so, like really looking at how mining
can underpin the economic development of the continent.

Speaker 12 (32:29):
We actually launched a new report this year alongside the
Africa Finance Corporation that's called the Annual Compendium the Strategic Minerals.
The President and CEO of samail as A Bayou, launched
it in our opening ceremony this morning, and we've basically
worked really closely with them to look at all of
the projects, all of the mining projects across the continent,

(32:50):
and then map them against all of the kind of
structural misalignments and try and look at them as opportunities,
right like where are their linkages between transport opportunities, infrastructur opportunities,
investment opportunities. Like if we can really zoom out and
look at mining holistically, I think there's yeah, it's there's
a real transformation that's happening.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
So there's hopefully the start of a wave that leads
to change not just in Southern Africa but across the continent.
Does require the ball to get rolling and kind of
needs a bit of a sometimes a kick start.

Speaker 11 (33:23):
It does, it does, But like I said, I think
that I mean we had we've had. We hosted the
minister or symposium yesterday as well. We saw the ministers
from Botswana, from DRC, from South Africa.

Speaker 12 (33:34):
Mozambique even kind of sitting alongside each other, really really
talking about these things quite frankly as well, admitting the
challenges and the roadblocks and stuff. It's not I think
we're just seeing the way that governments are addressing these issues.
It's just it's much more frank, it's much more grounded
in sort of like practical steps and things that need
to be done, rather than kind of like a I

(33:56):
guess what was largely a sort of symbolic political approach
that we saw.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Before, Ziona.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
But it's nice to speak to a fellow idealist.

Speaker 12 (34:03):
Thanks very much, indeed, thank you so much for the pleasure.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Zionavil Sayed is the Mining and Darbor's Director of Government
and Institutional Partnership. Six minutes to seven.

Speaker 5 (34:17):
On The Money Show six to eight PM.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
Let's move away from mining, shall we into something much
more important? I am talking, of course about shopping and
a report in twenty four today Checkers reporting back on
that experiment with smart trolley trolley's at one of its
stores in Cape Town. Essentially, you put your goods into
the trolley. It works out that Tullis has even got
a weight in it for you know that big cauliflower
or the apple or whatever it is. It calculates so

(34:41):
much you owe when you get to the checkout, obviously
you move through it a lot more quickly. Jonathan Cherry
is the founder of Strategic Foresight and Innovation consultancy Cherry
Flavor at Jonathan Good Evening. I mean, we see this
thing in many, many other countries. There are a few
people dipping their toes in the water here. Is this
technology really working.

Speaker 6 (35:05):
Often in Stephen? Yeah. Look, I think it works if
the culture allows it to work. So I think in
the first world environments, yes, you know, if you go
to a supermarket in the Netherlands, it's very sophisticated and
this kind of technology is easily adopted within that culture.

(35:26):
In South Africa, I think we've obviously got a different
kind of shopping environment here, and I think that's why
Shop Rights are testing it in a couple of stores
and they're seeing what value it offers. So this is
obviously a company that iterates the innovations. So this is
an iteration. I think they launched the first one in

(35:46):
August last year, and now they've launched a second one
in Cape Town to test the rollout in a new shop.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's I mean even in other markets. I mean the
economists the other day was having pieces about imperfect technologies.
That whole piece about why imperfect technology spread, and the
best example they used was the cashiers check out. I
mean it seems anyway. I mean, they seem to be
major problems in some places. Starbucks in the US had

(36:17):
a supply chain problem because it turns out humans are
better at counting cans of coffee than machines are. It
seems tilibate to do.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 13 (36:26):
Look, if you think about these things as a system,
if you put in that system, there's so many parts
that have to talk to each other in real time,
and you just need one of those parts to not
be working at an optimal level, and you've got problems.

Speaker 6 (36:42):
For many years, I worked with the team at Yappy Chet,
and back in those days, e commerce was incredibly complex.
You know, they tech systems, their logistics systems, their warehouse systems,
and they have to work seamlessly as opposed to someone
walking into a physical shop, take something off the shelf,

(37:03):
buying it from somebody else, putting it in the bag,
and they walk out. So the you know, just the
level of complexity involved with these things is incredible. So
that's why it's expensive, and you really have to justify
that investment over a period of time. But I think
there's value in exploring it. I think it would be

(37:25):
it would be an error to say, well, it's too expensive.
It's always going to be too expensive. We're just not
even going to try. A group like shop right Checkers.
There's always demonstrated that they are very willing to invest
money into these ideas, not necessarily to them at scale now,
but to at least have some skin in the game
when it does become viable.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
I mean it also, from what you suggest, means that
you actually have to be quite a big competitor to
make this work. And it's one of those strange things
when normally it's a small person in any market that
does something new, that might not be the case here.

Speaker 6 (38:00):
Yeah, Look, as you say, Shopwrite Checkers is a massive organization.
They are able to hire the kind of talent in
order to develop these kind of systems. But the big
thing is that you've already got a complex system of
supermarket logistics. Now to transision that to a digital environment

(38:22):
is going to be very expensive and take a long time.
There are lots of teething issues with that. If you
are a disruptor and you built you build your system
from scratch based on this innovative idea, it's much easier
to scale up from a small operator into the technology,
and that's why big companies really struggle to innovate. It's

(38:43):
not that they're under the desire to innovate, it's just
that when you've got that scale, to transition the entire
business to this new idea is incredibly complex. So yeah,
I think that's why the smaller players disrupt, just because
they've got the size at their advantage right on the
get go.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
I mean, the thing is that we are not going
to stay like this forever. At some point, I mean
we want of You know, in many places, people have
been pumping their own petrol for generations, and it's actually
quite rare to have someone do it for you in
most places. And all of that will come here, but

(39:23):
kind of only when the time is right, and it
just sort of feels like the time isn't right. I
think people in South Africa quite enjoy the actual luxury
of having someone do it for you.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (39:34):
Again, we've just got a different culture here. A couple
of years ago, I traveled to Austria and I try
to buy a train ticket in Vienna, and it was
impossible because the whole train station is automated. But for Austrians,
they love it. As a South African traveling there, absolutely
hated it because you're used to personal service in South Africa.
And yeah, again it's very much a culture thing. You know,

(39:55):
culture dictates whether the technology takes off in a region.
And I think in South Africa, you know, the vast
amount of transactions in this region are still then cash,
So it takes a long time for those cultural narratives
to change over time.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
So I agree with you.

Speaker 6 (40:13):
I think, you know, we've just got a different way
of working here. But again, it's not that you don't try.
It's not that you to try and you don't try
and innovate and implement these ideas, but you know, you've
just got to be wary as to whether they're going
to catch on and scale the way you.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
Hope that they do.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Jonathan, thank you so much. That issue about cash very important,
of course. Jonathan Cherry, founder of these strategic Foresight and
innovation consultancy Cherry a flavor. Would you invest in Quasi Luttel?
In a moment, we'll speak to someone who has just
gone seven o'clock.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
And now the Money Show with Stephen Cribs on seven
o two.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Let's walk at all the money. The money show with
Stephen Crutis is brought to you by ABSTE Corporate and
Investment Banking, Balancing economic growth with ecosystems. That's how they're
invested in your story. Good evening, I'm Stephen Crotiz. Eight
minutes now after seven the time we'll talk property in
a moment, and I've been asking you the question tonight

(41:09):
outside of kuaia zulintel, where would outside of the Western Cape?
Listen to me, outside of the Western Cape, where would
you invest in property in South Africa? Right now? In
a seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. Now,
I mean there's certain places. I mean I have no
idea what property is doing in Port nother Port Nolithe
where's port knowth you ask? Right at the top of

(41:32):
the Northern Cape. It's a little colder than you would
expect because of the Atlantic Ocean rather than the Indian Ocean.
But you still kind of wonder if maybe there's an
investment opportunity there or maybe you know you can invest
kind of long term, and that's really what do you
want to do. So we'll have a conversation with Estern Deklak,
the CEO of Growth Point, say about that. In just

(41:53):
a moment, so much to sort of look at when
it comes to property as well. There's a fascinating book
out as Girl on Girl, a bit of a provocative title,
and it's about how the media in particular treat woman.
Bronwin Williams has chosen that is her book in our
book review in a few moments time. And then finally

(42:14):
we'll be talking about supply chains and how I make
my money from seven point thirty. And you may remember
I was asking about supply chains a little while ago.
Someone got in touch and said, actually I know someone
who knows all about supply chains, and you'll hear from
her a little later in the program. So I'm really
looking forward to that conversation. So there's all of that
to come in the next little while as well. Good

(42:34):
to hear from you, of course on a double ONEA
A three two two one four four six oh five
sixty seven and voice notes on seven two seven oh
two one seven oh two.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
The Money Show with Stephen how on seven O two
seven o two.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Well, interesting just to see how things are all panning
out at the moment at the mining and darbor, but
also issues around property. And then you saw pick and
pays updates a little earlier. You heard that now Market
commentary tonight does seem that they are battling just a
little bit, and I kind of look forward. I'm sure
he'll make himself available because he's always been so good
about it. He'll speak to Sean Summers when they're ready

(43:12):
to release their results. I do think, and I just
keep coming back to this to try and recover. When
shopwriters on the march in this way, when it's so relentless,
I think that must be very difficult.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Stephen is on.

Speaker 5 (43:27):
X at at Stephen kruittez If.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
I think, like many people, including myself to an extent,
you believe that our economy is at an inflection point.
And if you're a property company like growth Point, or
you invest in commercial property, you're obviously looking for opportunities.
This is the moment. But even so I was interested
to see today that Growth Point is now looking a
little more involved in Kua Zulu Natel, despite the fact

(43:54):
they got their fingers a little burnt in twenty twenty one.
It does seem that growth Point is really looking at
spending a bit money more money in that particular province.
Est and Declak is the CEO of Growth point essay,
est and good evening. Do appreciate the time on a
Monday night. What kind of opportunities are you looking for
in Kwazulin Etsel at the moment? I mean, where are
you looking.

Speaker 3 (44:15):
Stephen?

Speaker 8 (44:15):
Yes, so clearly the economy has sort of started lifting
a little bit, and as I think I mentioned, we're
starting to see a couple of green shoots in the
Quasilian Toteer area.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
It's one of the few.

Speaker 8 (44:30):
We own quite a bit of office on Mushlanga Ridge
and that of all that office is full at this stage.
Durban is very much anchored by the port, which is
a major logistics hub for South Africa, so there's quite
a bit of opportunity in the logistics space. And we
also own retail shopping centers there as well as a

(44:53):
couple of hospitals. So in all the areas we are
seeing a bit of opportunity. And we also mens the
development of a new student accommodation facility for our student
Accommodation fund.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
I mean there's a lot more investment that's about to
happen around the port. Private operator at per two and
all the rest. I mean that would have a big
knock on effect for you there absolutely.

Speaker 8 (45:16):
So the reality is, as we go where our clients
want to be, if that's the analogy that can be used,
we are service provider and ultimately we invest in that
market to obtain attractive returns. And if you're in a
market where demand is growing, then typically what would happen

(45:36):
is rentals would firm and off the back of that,
we'll get better terms.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
Off the investments we're making.

Speaker 8 (45:43):
So the reality is is that urban has gone through
quite a difficult time, and I think other than the
issues around let's say COVID and riots and all those things,
which are pretty well documented, I think the impact of
high interest rates across economy, you know, probably is one
of the most material things in the real estate space.

(46:04):
And we're hoping to see that those interest rates will start,
you know, venturing down from I think originally they were
put up by four point seventy five percent. Theyre down
about one point two five. We certainly believe their scope
for some more reductions given the print on inflation and
various things, so you know, hopefully that will be the

(46:27):
road ahead and that will reduce our cost of capital,
which means we can provide you know, hopefully the product
a little bit more affordable to our clients.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I'm smiling to myself, Estian, because I think you what
you and the CEO of every single property company would
agree on is we could have interest rates. I don't
mean to.

Speaker 3 (46:46):
Be really absolutely funey.

Speaker 8 (46:47):
I think it's a.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Very key driver.

Speaker 8 (46:50):
Sure, and you know, having gone through the past five
years the real estate industry, you certainly faced every plague
that was possibly possible and managed to survive. So I
think we are feeling a little bit more optimistic. And
you know, some of that.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
Might be a bit misplaced. In that bond you have.

Speaker 8 (47:09):
Firmed quite a bit, and off the back of that,
we've seen our cost of capital come down quite a
bit in our share prices have all re rated somewhat.
And you know, we've got very very good, deep access
to liquidity in the South African market from institutional investors
that would like to buy bonds. You know that we

(47:34):
can issue on the dead side, and then you know,
I think the equity investors at pension funds are all
looking for more exposure to real estate in what will
be a more positive cycle for real estate.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Sure, I don't think anyone said certainly, no one that
I take seriously believes that what happened in Kuas Lunatel
five years ago in terms of the violence, will happen again.
I mean, is such an unlikely thing. I do worry
about flooding because the flooding that happened the here after
was devastating. I don't need to remind you ested and
I do think and certainly if you hear from insurance

(48:09):
companies the way that they are geocoding in that area,
all of those things, how worried are you about that?
I mean, there's some parts of the world, Florida, for example,
which people say might just become uninsurable. That's obviously we're
a long way from that and urban, but it does
worry me that that flooding was so intense, and you know,
if it's happened once.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Absolutely so.

Speaker 8 (48:31):
I think there's a few things that you've raised that
it would be important from a real estate investment perspective.
I think, you know, from a security perspective, we as
a company certainly increasingly thinking about investing in real estate
precincts where we can have influence on the urban environment
that is created in and around our property. So not

(48:53):
just thinking about isolated building in a specific area, but
more grouping your assets and and having influence on, for instance,
how keen the environment is, how secure it is, and
being able to affordably provide those services given that unfortunately

(49:14):
many of our metros are not as functional as we'd
like them to be, and that spiacks then to you know,
what happened with the floods was many of the poets
of the infrastructure had not been maintained, which compounded the issue.
So when we look at where we invest, we quite
careful at ensuring that the infrastructure around us is reasonably

(49:38):
well maintained. Quite often we are actually putting in that
infrastructure ourselves. As the real estate industry, increasingly we're playing
a much bigger role in infrastructure, whether it's power, water,
or road infrastructure. And on the back of that, you know,
we can make sure the job's well done and that
these assets are well maintained. So it has an impact

(50:01):
on our costs because the same metros are very eager
to continually increase the rates and taxes and the service
charges so that they levy against the industry, and we
obviously providing many of these services now ourselves, so it
is something that is a key factor and the certain

(50:24):
things and to tell that Urban Metro is not one
of the cheaper metros to invest in.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
It's also where in the metro you invest right. So
if I understanding correctly, you tend to avoid CBDs, you
deliberately go elsewhere, correct.

Speaker 8 (50:41):
So we our target clients are usually the larger corporates
in South Africa, and if you think about the Durban context,
most of those corporates have moved out towards the Schlunger Ridge,
so that's where we providing them services. And I mean,
as we say speak there's a new demand for offers,

(51:03):
there's more demand for logistics space. So the demand is
definitely there from those clients. And because we have grouped
our assets in that area, we can have a bit
of an impact on, you know, ensuring that the environment
around these assets are well managed.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
I suppose the other thing when you look at it
is what opportunity there might be in what sector And
there is a university there, people haven't really built student
accommodation in that area for a while, and suddenly that
might be a huge opportunity. And the demand for higher
education in South Africa is only going to grow, these

(51:43):
institutions are going to have to expand we'll need more
of them in that market for student accommodation surely should
go up and.

Speaker 8 (51:49):
Up absolutely for the Student Accommodation Fund. We've certainly identified
that opportunity and been able to you know, start develop
in areas where actually there hasn't been developed developments for
students for several years and I'm talking decades. So in
Durban we've commenced literally at the entrance of the Howard

(52:14):
College campus.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
Of Nattel University.

Speaker 8 (52:17):
We're developing a new facility, purpose built student accommodation of
about two and a half thousand beds, which will be
ready in twenty twenty seven. And that would be an
example of that. Not only are we providing or looking
to provide a student accommodation to let's call it government

(52:40):
owned universities, but we also the private sector growth is
actually very impressive. So there are quite a few private
sector players playing in higher education and they are developing
new campuses.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
As we speak, and strategically.

Speaker 8 (52:57):
We're looking to partner with them by providing student accommodation
for students that would like to go to those private
universities as well, so it's pretty much across the board
and the kind of product that we are providing, as
I mentioned earlier, as purpose built. So you know, we
think through things like ensuring power and water and to

(53:20):
these facilities and Wi Fi and security are all very
key to the product that ultimately and the students require.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
This may seem a strange question to ask someone who
runs a property company, but let me put it to you.
St In, we were talking about diamonds earlier on The
Money Show, and someone made the very important point that
a diamonds, which we were told were forever for a
very long time, no longer are and we're looking at
the end of the diamond industry. As a result of that,
the world is changing in unexpected ways, a lot more

(53:52):
kind of virtuality in some ways. Younger generations in some
countries are actually spending less time socializing with each each other.
Is property still the investment it was fifty years ago?
I mean, my God says yes. But I'm looking for
an intellectual argument from you.

Speaker 8 (54:08):
Look, I mean I am clearly biased, right so running
a real estate company, I firmly believe that real estate
is a great investment and will continue to be a
great diversifier of wealth and is arguably one of the
largest industries on the planet. And when thinking about real estate,

(54:28):
very much is about people and connecting people. And if
you think about people going to offices or students going
to a campus, the reason why they want to do
that is because they want to connect. And the magic
happens when people do connect. Now, those environments where they
connect is what we specialize, and I honestly do believe

(54:51):
that that will continue. The way they connect often is changing,
and that means that there are things that we have
to take into account and we have to adapt, and
like any other industry, we have to continue to innovate
to provide the service that the market requires. But there
is no doubt in my mind anybody that's been working

(55:13):
in Sandton over the past five years would have seen
quite an interesting shift initially, and as we sit here today,
I can tell you that it's a significant change from
what it was two years ago. As companies realize that
in order to have a culture, in order to have

(55:35):
loyalty from your employees, they do need to connect otherwise
that they can pretty much work for anybody anywhere on
the planet. And yes, there are certain industries that are
more likely to functionally be able to provide their services
like that, but many organizations pivot on the skills and

(55:55):
the connection between people.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Stnder Clark, thanks so much the point, I say, really
appreciate it. Twenty three after seven.

Speaker 5 (56:03):
My show for Business Books.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Well, the book this week is called Girl on Girl
by Sophie Gilbert. Bronwin Williams is the trend translator and
future finance specialist Flax Trends Bronwin, Good Evening. It's a book.
You've got to be very careful when you google it
for obvious reasons, and that's kind of the point. This
is what this book is about. It's about how the
media treats women, I suppose in a way particularly young women,

(56:28):
and is completely different to the way it treats men.

Speaker 14 (56:32):
Yes, well I picked that because, as your listeners might, no,
I do Carlo reviews. I'm supposed in the future space,
but I'm also a trained economist and one of the
things that I'm really interested in is the effects of that.
I call it the commoditization of care on our economy
and on our society. And that's why this book was
an interesting and challenging read to bring to a business show,

(56:55):
even though it's really more about society. What it's really
speaking about is how feminism as we know it, where
it has collided with capitalism as we know it today,
has put woman into this impossible choice of either being
exploited or exploiting yourself, as though that's somehow more empowering.
Hello OnlyFans, and of course the normalization of porn or

(57:20):
qualification of like normalcy, which is kind of the world
that we have it in today. So what the author
sophy does It takes you through really a whiplash tour
of the history of that increasing sort of commoditization of
the self that has been effectively the sort of current

(57:40):
stage of feminism that we're at, this idea that you
have to sell yourself in order to survive starts of
quite denying. You know, you get to look good for Instagram,
and that course means that you will get more attention.
If you get more money, you can get more like.
But okay, if you take off a few more clothes,
you can do it on OnlyFans and you can make you.

Speaker 10 (57:58):
More money there.

Speaker 14 (57:59):
Expact, if you're a child star, it's now the Disney
Straight Store. Ony fans pipeline. It's become quite normalized. And
it's particularly interesting to dive into this conversation in the
weeks where the world is busy discussing the Epstein files
and what isn't is not inside them because all these
things are so related.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Could they be and I'm going to delve into very
deep waters here that are well below my hair, well
above my head. Could it also lead to woman feeling
they have to make particular choices. It creates a kind
of false binary, even to the point of what do
I wear to the business meeting? How do I deal

(58:40):
with this very difficult conversation? How do I behave in
a tough negotiation when I want this? All of those
things are happening, maybe unconsciously, maybe quite consciously, or because
of this pornographization of media.

Speaker 14 (58:56):
Yes exactly, and the pornomiphization of the self. I mean,
Mary hern is another amazing writer that's right into the
space too. But I think you kind of hits it
on the head. And that's why the tsole is of
course a pun that it's this idea that it becomes
a sort of self reinforcing and self policing system that
under the guise of freedom. Women need to accept being

(59:18):
exploited by themselves or by others in order to maintain
their place in society. And this is it's actually quite
interesting in terms of like a tragedy of the commons,
kind of an economic very game, right, or a zero
sum game, a race to the bottom. So if we know,
and unfortunately it is a truth, but if you look younger,
and you are sinner, and you are taller, you're going

(59:40):
to get paid more in the workplace, right. I mean
they say age discrimination as women in particular, starts taking
place when it comes in terms of mispromotions all the
way from the age of thirty five. You're not even
halfway through your life, but you're already like too old,
which means it's distensible economic fit is to get the botox,
take the odama, and maintain your social value. But by

(01:00:03):
doing that, you're putting more pressure onto the next woman
and the next goal to do the same, because by
not doing that, you're even even more money on the table,
and the difference between those who are playing the game
and those who are not playing the game becomes more stark.
I mean, it's it's not just women, it's also meniful
into this trap's like the leg lengthening surgery, and this

(01:00:24):
idea of having to sort of, you know, remake yourself
to fit in with the norm that nobody really wants,
that everybody is doing because that's what pays. And that's
what's so.

Speaker 3 (01:00:34):
Interesting about this, just to to sort of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
In the media, in my experience of newsrooms, women have
always outnumbered men, and I'm sure that's probably the case
in the entertainment media too, and yet this still happens,
And isn't that interesting, says Stephen bravely.

Speaker 14 (01:01:02):
Yes, exactly. That's the point around the self policing that
in fact women become their own enforces and their own
enflavors in the system, because it's the choices that individual
women make that sort of limited or exchange the choices
that other women, particularly younger women have. It's the law
models that we have, it's the promotions that we get.

(01:01:22):
I think I've surely spoken about it on the show before.
There was that infamous Queen Bee paper that came out
one of the Capsan universities that looked at how in
South Africa a lot of the pay gap in corporate
South Africa actually came from women bosses not hiring younger
women and not from men not hiring women like men
were hiring and promoting almost equitably, but women had the

(01:01:45):
stark gap about these of ordiness because of this idea
of competition and scarcity. Now uncharitably that that's not very
nice of the women in power, But with a little
more pragnatism, you have to understand that she's doing this
because she does know that as a little abused into
her hive puts her roast right. It's the sort of

(01:02:05):
system to be built for ourselves that we become part,
We become actor in perpetuating the same hearts, much like
a sort of reading as a schools universities. It's men,
of course, quite known for, but it is the sort
of self if one woman is exploiting herself. If we
see celebrities showing up at awards shows literally in the nude,
like I'm sure we thought also the Grammys pictures beautiful,

(01:02:27):
but also kind of pushing the boundaries, it means the
next woman has that much more pressure could do the thing,
because that's where the bye is now set in terms
of compliance. So if you don't comply, of course you
being difficult or even regressive, which is where you've got
the sort of really ironic side of feminism that it
doesn't pay to be conservative, and that by being conservative

(01:02:48):
in yourself you are not actually being a feminist. So
we've kind of talked to ourselves into the circle where
feminism equals self exploitation, which is not what anyone intended
to do with the sort of outstates of the sexual revolution,
which is kind of where the book starts and busswards
all the way to the mess we find ourselves in today,
particularly with young girls who are now already unlike skincare

(01:03:10):
regimes from the age of teen or eleven, which is
just incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Yeah, it is Ronin Williams, thank you so much, really
appreciate it. Ronin Williams is a trend translator and future
finance specialist with Flux Trends. The book is called provocatively
Girl on Girl. It's by Sophie Gilbert.

Speaker 5 (01:03:29):
How Money, So How I make my money?

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Twenty one minutes now to eighth the time. So you
may remember a few weeks ago, I told a story.
I told a story. It came from writers about Starbucks
in the US and the supply chain problems that they've had,
and they've been one or two other questions about supply chains,
and I mentioned at the time I was quite keen
to find out a bit more about how they work,
what that business is like, what happens when things go wrong,

(01:03:55):
and I think we kind of know shelves are empty,
et cetera. Well, almost out of noahs, someone who was
listening emailed me and said, well, actually we know someone
who knows all about that, and I'm very pleased to
tell you that that someone has agreed to speak to
you tonight. Lorato Sabata is a procurement and supply chain
expert and CEO of the ROI Group. Loraato are put

(01:04:17):
out to the universe, does anyone know about these things?
And here you are. Thanks so much for agreeing to
speak to us tonight.

Speaker 15 (01:04:25):
Can even Stephen thank you so much for having me
and the listeners?

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Well, what is it about? I mean, I see a
supply chain and I think in my head it's this
thing that moves stuff from one place to another. You've
made a career out of it. What's so interesting about
supply chains that you've been able to work in it
for so long?

Speaker 15 (01:04:46):
Well, thank you for that. So supply chain to be
honest with you, is basically invisible economy if we think
of it like that, when things work, people don't tend
to notice. But if anything actually stars affecting you as
a customer, there is a noticing stuff like changes and
price shortages and stock you know, business being in distress,

(01:05:07):
we have issues around delivery. So that's when as a
customer is not feeling actually the vailuve supply chain. And
for me, that's what made it interesting because I can
feel intangibly delivered this product, you know, to a particular
customer that which is using and most of even being
very visible logistics. We see them on the road every

(01:05:27):
single day and basically that's what moves one idea into
actual product the customer can use. And that's what's so
refreshing for me to be in this career.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
How did you get into it? You know, most many
mining executives started as an engineer. Some of them started underground.
How do you get into supply chains?

Speaker 15 (01:05:49):
You know, a very interesting story. I was sitting on
my line at my aligne with my sister's friend. You know,
during metric you know, you're not sure what you want
to do the next year, and it busy debating. It's
just a really informal conversation and she just said, do
you want to consider logistics? And I didn't even know
what that meant, and I obviously went to just research
and I was I just immediately fell in love with

(01:06:11):
the idea of I could relate with logistics. And that's
just how I ended up being in the supply and field,
where I did a lot of my work in procurement,
you know, and we'rehousing and manufacturing and the lot. So
that's what basically inspired and I landed into the career.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
Is there something satisfying about the physicality of it? By
which I mean and I'm going to use I'm going
to use cans of beans a lot over the next
to the world because I need an example of something
that we all know. But but but is it? Is
it because you could you can tell whether the cans
of beans got to where they were supposed to get

(01:06:48):
to at the right time. Is that maybe quite satisfying
in a way that I don't know? Lecturing history isn't.

Speaker 15 (01:06:56):
You could say that because firstly, it's relatable, you know,
and one can be very inquisitive to understand where are
these kinds of being sourced from, who packages them, who
delivers them? You know what makes up the price of
that kind of you know beans, And if there's any issues,
what does that look like from a this logistics perspective,

(01:07:18):
do you understand so? Yes, in terms of relatability, absolutely so.
I think that's a lot more easier for one to
follow through, you know, versus the invisible world. You know
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
I mean, when you visualize a supply chain, do you
carry a sort of image of something around in your head?
I kind of have. It's a very silly image, but
I have an image of a very old fashioned kind
of car production system, you know, as a production line,
except that the production line starts you know, growing the

(01:07:51):
beans and ends in a whole series of shopping centers
in different places.

Speaker 15 (01:07:58):
Yeah, you could look at it like that, but you see,
for simplicity reason, think of it like playing really, you know,
on a field, one person passes the betton to another
person until the finish line. So when you start sourcing manufacturers,
you get onto that how do those products move from
that place to the next, which is now logistics planning

(01:08:20):
as all supply chain, and in that's where a lot
of issues happen, challenges, miscalculation, late deliveries there storage storage
includes money. If you overstore a product for two lungs,
that losing out in even you you know. And now
there's also delivery to the actual customer itself, you know
that uses the particular product. And now behind all of

(01:08:41):
that whole chain, there's systems, there's it, there's AI. Now
you know, there's a whole lot of outset complexities that
are behind the chain where where you can almost visualize
it like that, and when you start experiencing more relatable
even topics. Now, which is maybe more topical is let's
just say maybe for example, the whole issue with the

(01:09:02):
timber is a hospital. Those are all supplying challenges because
it included the intiquities of how pricumanism was handled, and
that's part of a value chain in the process flow,
you know. So therefore is how then do we ensure
ultimately delivery. It speaks to the sourcing element and the

(01:09:26):
sourcing elements the people behind the decisions of such type
of activity.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
The older I get, the more I realized that experts
and things often have mathematical equations for things. So I mean,
I'm always it took me a while to get my
brain around this. But there are mathematical equations for traffic, right,
are there certain rules even mathematical equations perhaps for supply chains?
If you one to move a whole series of things

(01:09:56):
from places ab, CD and E to you know, X,
y Z and good listeners where else you have to
follow these rules? Are that kind of quite sort of
standardized ways of doing things?

Speaker 16 (01:10:09):
There must be, yeah, absolutely so rules In terms of
how a product is sourced, there is rules and how
you advertise, you know, let's just say, for example, there
is a need to procure new facility in.

Speaker 15 (01:10:31):
Africa somewhere because we want to build maybe a brewery
for example. They the sourcing element you need to participate
in in country requirement that you need to pass through
as its and that those are part of the you know,
the earlier part of sourcing, and that's very intentional and

(01:10:53):
you cannot just go and build it, you know what
I mean, or any facility for that matter. And that's
where the rules come in. And then there's also how
a new source that particular facility then comes into play,
which is now your procurement process which is highly governed
and you are operating within frameworks and the selection process,
and then there's also now the awarded service providers on

(01:11:15):
the ground to implement this. Also the framework that must
work within from a health and safety perspective, quality perspective,
you know, all the standards. So all of these things
operate within frameworks and rules. Yes, until to a particular
customer and I'll end up using the particular product or
service at the end. So in that there's a heavy
compliance and governance duties in that process.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
So what I mean is when you want to build
a supply chailer rato, there must be ways in which
you start, and you know that if you don't do
it like this, it's not going to work. So what
I'm talking about is I'm not worried about compliances. I'm
talking about established procedures for making a supply chain work.

Speaker 15 (01:12:02):
It takes They're all interconnected, right, It's not a singular
it's not singularly managed because remember, if business operates with
other functions that should make it work, So you will
require it. It will require maybe in inventory team, it
will require systems, you know, so all of those things,
when you put them together to establish a supply chain

(01:12:24):
will ultimately become one and how do we see this work.
Let's say for global supply chains, if you're moving any
product from America into South Africa, there are rules of
inter trade you know that you must work within and
how you end up lending into other parts of the countries.
So yes, in terms of answering that question, what.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Are the things that go wrong most often? And I
want to say hey, and I say this based from
headlines and not entirely serious. An upgrade to an sap
it TC system seems to lead to the biggest problems.
I have my tongue in my cheek, but a change
to an IT system seems to lead to so many

(01:13:06):
supply chain problems that we can see as consumers.

Speaker 15 (01:13:10):
M In terms of what what goes wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Yes, what what goes wrong most often with the supply chain?

Speaker 15 (01:13:17):
A lot of it is poor planning and underestimating the
value of the IT system that can manage that type
of plans and planning, I mean from demand for example,
you could under you know, plan from a demand perspective,
or supply chains could be maybe designed to for example,

(01:13:38):
let's say Starbucks, they've designed to in the front end
of a shop to sell beverages, but now over time
because of customers need variety. Then you start introducing other
products and that means you have to start changing how
that was supposed to have flow in the beginning. And
now there's more people that need more food than it
was with beverages. So are you ready now? So therefore

(01:13:58):
that means you mus start adding more suppliers to meet
the quick customer demands. Then let's ask the new age.
You are not order online. Now you're adding another dynamic
and introducing you know, ordering systems and automation and all
of that must move first right and ultimately HASMA being
heavy the promised timeline, and therefore that starts creating a
lot of challenges if it's not well planned.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
So and then so the biggest problem really is that
that people just aren't upgrading when they should. I mean,
it's like everything you have to upgrade at the right time.

Speaker 15 (01:14:29):
Yes, and sometimes then you buy leader sy systems that's
been there for so long that we're not able to
perform for them. Now demand you know if you now
and now maybe air on AI to assist with the planning.
But the current leader systems are they able to upgrade
you to that particular software or the particular system, which
is a challenge, you know, and there's quality failures and

(01:14:49):
real works delays. And the big part also is the
LAD payments. You know, if you're paying your suppliers lad,
they can't get you and order on time. That's another issue,
you know. So it comes and interconnected challenges that over
all create these type of challenges over time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
We're speaking to Lorato Sabata tonight to procurement and supply
chain expert CEO of the ROI Group. We're talking matters
supply chain on The Money Show nine minutes now to eight.

Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
The Money Show.

Speaker 9 (01:15:16):
Step Encuts is brought to you by Absolve Corporate and
Investment Banking Balancing economic growth with ecosystems. That's how they've
invested in your.

Speaker 5 (01:15:25):
Story our Money Show, How I make my money.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Talking matters supply chain tonight, and of course been a
while since so we've been able to speak to someone
about this issue, but just getting a deeper understanding of
how it all works. Lorato Sabata is the procurement and
supply chain expert and CEO of the ROI Group. Lorrato,
I think a lot of us hadn't really thought much
of supply chains until the pandemic came along and suddenly

(01:15:54):
we were thinking about supply chains all the time. I remember,
as the lockdown, we're starting talking about food supply change,
you know, and I was suddenly very interested in food
supply chains have supply change because some of them were disrupted,
not food necessarily, but others were. Have supply change changed
much since the pandemic. There was lots of talk of

(01:16:15):
near shoring and things like that. Have supply change really
changed since then?

Speaker 15 (01:16:20):
Yes, I think a lot of businesses have really treated
supply chain now those type of challenges that we're experienced
in COVID as more of a business continuity, you know.
It's more like the Blacks one that was the first
thing that has happened that cost the disruption that we experienced,
and now risk you know, management and mitigation plans have
put in place have now you know, transformed that part

(01:16:41):
of thinking tomorrow, how do we continue business if such happens?
In that to be more practical, there's more introduction of
supply diversity, you know, and sourcing closer to home, you know,
in we have issues of localization. A lot of the
items are important, you know. There isn't my certain happening locally.

(01:17:02):
The government is trying very hard to to amplify their
bee you know, performance and participation just from that localization.
I think that happened post COVID really was another amplifier
in that which we need to solve for and that
has been you know, starting to come up to place
entightening a lot more contracts and service levels, right, and

(01:17:22):
how then to become more creative bellion panels where some
supporting leaders say, how we now source service providerers through
our process in procurement, we want to look for innovation
in the like of if something like of it could happen,
So innvases starting to become the center part of how
you then award a particular contracts you know, and particular

(01:17:43):
performance structure so that you're not found in a vulnerable position.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
It's difficult for a company, though, isn't it, because you
you would have had let me call it, a pre
pandemic and a post pandemic supply line, and a pre
pandemic supply chain might have cost to one hundred rand,
say for argument's sake, and a post pandemic production line
or supply line a supply chain that you need cost
you twenty percent more than that for something that's only

(01:18:10):
happened once in sort of five generations. I mean to
try and manage the cost of that to do it correctly.
There might be some companies that will say, no, we're
not going to plan for a black Swan event. We're
just going to take the profit while we can.

Speaker 15 (01:18:25):
Yeah, I mean, ultimately we need to move with the
times and move with where the market is going. We
have a high pressure with interest rates, economies are changing,
tobalizations happening is just becoming a big thing. So companies
are really under pressure to start also aligning with those
type of games. And now you cannot go bit pre
covid right. And also your competitors are aligning themselves in

(01:18:47):
that particular way. So therefore you will either be stuck
or move. And those are they come with the challenges
of prices increase and you know these type of dynamics.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
The ways supply chains are going. Now, are they going
to involve fewer humans? I mean, obviously humans will design
them and still do a lot of the work, but
do you get a sense I think people are going
to mechanize more and more, and you know, feel free
to throw the phrase in AI somewhere. Everyone's talking about
robots at the moment.

Speaker 15 (01:19:20):
Yeah, that's a topical thing now, which I also had
a conversation with one of the leaders in the finance
industries recently that you know, a lot there is now
designs regarding the robots of how to respond to what
we don't want to do every day. You know, there's
a repetitive work that you do every day and how
can I do that faster? But now you're probably going

(01:19:40):
to need a human being to to correct that and
maybe insert of input particular probmts that should enable what
you want to get out of that. So it's still
a growing conversation, to be honest, but the future is
going there. But at some point it would have been
fully transformed into AI slash automation. But now humans must
also transform because one of the interest recurement or supplich

(01:20:01):
has is lack of skills. Are we sourcing the right
people for today's world of how we want this to
appli chas to work efficiently? That's another thing. Talent management
another problem, you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Know, I mean, I would imagine you know that you
need people to design these things. It must be a
very interesting career to get into and at times quite
exciting and quite challenging if things go wrong.

Speaker 15 (01:20:26):
Yeah, you need people to design this, but also it's
more also on the new age youth that is designing
this new type of creative innovation and markets also market ready.
If you look at our market, it's so much secondary
to the European market, so we always play catch up.
And at the time we catch up, is it where
supplition is at the global landscape? It's another challenge in

(01:20:49):
a question.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
You know that rate, is that rate of change speeding up?
So it's interrupted? I mean, is it moving more quickly
than it did, say twenty years ago.

Speaker 15 (01:21:00):
I believe it's taking up right now, especially with like
the two thousand sort of generation going forward and how
things are today versus the prior generation. So absolutely the
spirit of it is moved at and before, though it
might not be the skill that it would be with
the Europeans, I would say that or Chinese, you know, in.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
A way, Lorato, thanks so much, really enjoy it. Lorato
Sabat is a procurement and supply chain expert and CEO
of the ROI Group.

Speaker 9 (01:21:31):
The Money Show Still Encruets is brought to you by
Absolve corporate and investment backing balancing economic growth with ecosystems.
That's how they've invested in your story.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
Well, obviously taking a quick look at what's happening with
some of the markets around the world at the moment,
and various things going on in terms of what's happening
with the US market certainly looking relatively positive actually compared
to what we've seen in recent days. Trying to bring
you the actual numbers, but I'm afraid my device has

(01:22:04):
decided that that's enough. It's tired of this Monday, and
therefore it is just going to give in. And you know, frankly,
there are days when I can't really blame it. We'll
be back tomorrow. There'll be a lot more from the
mining in Darbor, but also starting to really look at
what's happening ahead of the state of the nation addressed,
and we'll bring that live to you during the time

(01:22:25):
The Money Show is normally on air on Thursday. See
you tomorrow, good evening.

Speaker 3 (01:22:29):
It's editor

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