The atmosphere was electric in the cathedral in Abuja, Nigeria as the the Word of God from 2 Corinthians rang out with unmistakable clarity: “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers… Come out from them and be separate… Let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates.”
The preacher was the Archbishop of Nigeria, Henry Ndukuba, and his message landed with force. Many of the Primates, Archbishops, Bishops, Clergy and Laity from across the Anglican world would have preached on that passage in the past, but the Holy Spirit pressed it home in a remarkable way.
In this episode of The Pastor’s Heart, Dominic Steele speaks with Glenn Davies — former Archbishop of Sydney and now Bishop of the GAFCON Authorised Diocese of the Southern Cross.
Together they reflect on the emotional and spiritual tone of the conference as it begins, the shift since the sober mood of GAFCON 2023 in Kigali, and the key questions now facing global Anglican leaders — including the future structure of the communion, the role of the Global South, and the difficult realities for churches seeking faithfulness while still legally tied to Canterbury.
Plus
- Bishop of South Sydney Michael Stead outlines the way the conference statement will be formed from the ground up.
- Presiding Bishop of the Anglican Network in Europe Andy Lines speaks on how the Church of England has failed to repent, despite the clarion call of the Gafcon23 conference.
- Mwita Akiri is former Bishop of Tarmi in Tanzania and co-ordinator of Gafcon for Tanzania.
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SPEAKER_00 (01:17):
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
I studied Diploma in Theology atBundar Bible College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit Anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_05 (01:47):
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
Come out of them and beseparate, says the Lord.
Let us purify ourselves fromeverything that contaminates.
I've read that passage, I'vepreached that passage, but
tonight the atmosphere waselectric as the Holy Spirit did
his work here in the cathedralin Abuja, Nigeria, and God's
word was applied to our hearts.
(02:07):
The Archbishop of Nigeria, HenryNdekaba, brought the word of God
and we heard it.
And by we, I mean primates,archbishops, bishops, clergy,
and the people of God,Christians gathered here in
Abuja, Nigeria, from rightacross the world.
It is Dominic Steele, and we'recoming to you from Nigeria
within the Pastor's HeartSpecial on the future of the
(02:28):
Anglican Communion, the bigconference getting underway
here.
Our coverage, a 30-minutespecial every day this week,
brought to you byAnglicanaid.org.
Glenn Davies is with me, formerArchbishop of Sydney, now Bishop
of the GAFCON AuthorizedAustralian Southern Cross
Diocese.
You've got a series of hatshere, uh, Glenn, in Abuja, one
(02:48):
of which is a statement writingcommittee.
But let's start with yourpastor's heart.
And uh, as you sat under theWord of God this evening
listening to the Archbishop ofNigeria, what was going through
your heart?
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Well, as a communion service tonight, and one of the
prayers of the prayerpreparation cleanse cleanse the
thoughts of our hearts andminds, and that sense in which
to realize that God's peopleneed to be pure and holy.
And uh the Archbishop of allNigeria gave a sterling address
with regard to just the verythings you've talked about.
That if we're to be God'speople, we're to move away and
(03:24):
eschew immorality, ungodliness,and pursue righteousness and
holiness, because that's whatGod wants, a holy people.
We are saints of the Most High,and therefore that's our
calling, and that should be putinto action in our lives.
SPEAKER_05 (03:38):
It's it's felt wow, we really are getting down to
business um with with the startof the the service this evening.
I think in uh GAFCON 23 inRwanda, um the mood was well,
really a somberness that wow,it's come to this, the
disobedience of the Church ofEngland.
(03:58):
Um but the the mood here iscompletely different.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Well, the mood is jubilation, I think.
Uh the Apostle Paul writes uhwarn a brother twice once and or
twice, and then have nothing todo with him.
We've been warning therevisionists for decades, a
quarter of a century, and theywill not repent from their
foolish ways.
So the sense in which we'regoing to reorder, reform the
(04:24):
Church of England, just likeCranmer reformed reformed the
Anglican Communion, just likeCranmer reformed the Church of
England.
When he stepped back from Rome,an apostate church which didn't
deserve the name of being holy,apostolic, Catholic, and
unified.
So that sense in which we arejubilant because we are
recognizing that we are theglobal Anglican communion.
(04:47):
Look at this over 300 bishopsfrom around the world, 24
provinces from around the world.
It's just wonderful.
We're united in the gospel andthe Anglican formularies, the
Book of Common Prayer, and the39 articles grounded in the
scriptures.
That's what that's who we are,and that's what we're moving
forward to being.
SPEAKER_05 (05:06):
There's a penny drop moment uh in the service tonight
when he said uh that just as theChurch of Rome has erred, the
Church of England has erred.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
Sadly, that is the case.
A crammer would roll over in hisgrave because when they in 2023,
which was the year of the KigaliGafcon Assembly, in that year
beginning, of course, the Churchof England, through its bishops
and the hopeless leadership thatthey gave the general synod,
they approved by a very narrowmajority in clergy and lay to
(05:37):
bless same-sex unions and tobless that which is sin does not
glorify God.
You cannot sanctify sin.
SPEAKER_05 (05:45):
Now, what about the global south?
The expectation coming out ofKigali was that the uh
leadership of the global southand the uh GAFCON primates would
be working together to establishthis new global communion.
Now, there are some global southprimates here, but quite a lot
have stayed away.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Yes, there are there are three global south primates
here actually.
And I think the wonderfulannouncement they made in Ash
Wednesday 2023, just before theKigali conference, that that was
the strongest statement theyever made about resetting the
communion and working withGAFCON.
So when our we wrote our Kigalicommitment in 2023, we endorsed
(06:24):
that and said, yes, we want towork with the global south.
And we set up uh a task force tomeet with them.
But sadly, I'm sorry to say,they have not responded to the
overtures which we've given.
And more than once over the lastnearly two years, nearly two and
a half years, have we beenaddressing this issue.
And so we came to the point inOctober last year when the
(06:47):
GAFCON Prime had said, enough isenough.
We will go it by ourselves.
By your all means, you'rewelcome to join us, Global South
Fellowship of Confess of Ang ofChurches, but we're gonna we're
gonna reform and reorder theAnglican Communion, and that's
what we've done, and this is acelebration of that very
marvellous statement they madein October.
SPEAKER_05 (07:09):
Now, uh I've been talking to people the last
couple of days and um and justhearing the snippets of uh, if
you like, preparation that'sbeen going into the thinking.
And it feels like, I mean, if wehad made this decision back in
2023 in Rwanda, I'm justcomparing and contrasting it
really.
Um, it's a much more maturedecision now with two years of
(07:31):
reflection and a whole lot ofdetail has been worked out.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Uh, you're quite right.
And there's still more detail tobe done.
Where we're restructuring theGAFCON Primates Council.
It will no longer be the GAFCOPrimates Council, it'll be the
uh uh it'll be the the AnglicanAnglican the Global Anglican
Council.
That's what it's going tobecome.
And that will be announcedthrough this week.
And that new council will notjust be primates, it'll have
(07:58):
some lay and uh other clergythere as well.
So it'll be a representativebody for the global Anglican
Communion.
It won't be Canterbury-centric.
We've moved away fromCanterbury-centric instruments
of communion, and we're doingjust what Cranmer did uh back in
the 16th century.
And so this is true Anglicanismto step away from heresy, to
(08:20):
step away from that which isdispleasing in God's sight, and
to move in a direction which isgoing to glorify the Lord Jesus
and empower mission so that morepeople might hear the gospel of
the Lord Jesus and turn to himto be saved.
That's our passion.
SPEAKER_05 (08:35):
Now, a couple of elephants in the room.
What do you do with um peoplewho are with GAFCON
theologically and yet want tostay aligned with Canterbury?
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Well, I it depends on the leadership of such
provinces.
Uh they if they want to be ininvolved into the GAFCON into
the Global Anglican Council,then they really can't be
involved in the instruments ofcommunion.
So, but the ordinarycongregations who have got
(09:08):
nothing to do with theinstruments of communion.
I mean, I imagine yourcongregation wouldn't even know
anything about the instrumentsof communion, uh, so they
understand what communion means,but that's instruments, you
know, that's you know, that'sfor dinner time.
So that sense in which anycongregation in a mixed diocese,
any diocese in a mixed provinceand any province can affirm the
(09:30):
Jerusalem Declaration, and theleadership could be involved in
that uh global Anglican Council.
But uh if the leadership choosesto be with the instruments, well
they can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, but that won't
actually enable them toparticipate personally.
But the members of the churchesbelow them may well want to, and
that'll be a wonderful thing.
(09:50):
So the Diocese of Sydney, forexample, we've affirmed, adopted
the uh Jerusalem Declaration in2008, half just after it was
done.
And uh we we can fullyparticipate because we have not
supported ACC since 1994, Ibelieve.
We uh we uh we don't have muchwe never we haven't been to a
Lambeth conference since 1998.
(10:12):
So Sydney is very much a partand participant in the global
Anglican Communion, and but itdoesn't override the fact that
constitutionally we're incommunion with the Church of
England, but we're an impairedcommunion with the Church of
England.
We can't and have been for along time, but we're not using
the language of being incommunion, we're using the
language of partnership.
(10:32):
That's true koinonia.
Fellowship is what we have, andthe Diocese of Sydney and also
the diocese of Southern Cross isvery much a partner with the
global Anglican Communion, mostmany of which are represented
here in Abuja.
SPEAKER_05 (10:46):
Glenn, thanks very much for talking to us here on
the Pastor's Heart.
Thank you.
That's Glenn Davies, and uh,this is a special edition of The
Pastor's Heart, live from Abuja,Nigeria, brought to you by
Anglicana.org.
And it is day one of the bigGAFCON conference here today.
Earlier this afternoon, I spokewith Michael Stead, current
bishop of South Sydney, but herein Abuja, Nigeria, Michael is
(11:07):
acting as the chair of thestatement writing committee.
We spoke in the main auditorium,which was being fitted out at
the time for all the plenarysessions, which will start there
tomorrow morning.
Um, Michael, let's just uh lookaround us for a moment, and uh
uh it's all systems go in thisbuilding at the moment.
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Uh absolutely.
As I look around, I can seethey're still putting together
the stage.
Uh, there's a big team of peopletrying to get it all together
ready for tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER_05 (11:35):
Yeah, and I can hear the vacuum matches starting off
downstairs, but we've beenlistening to sound checks.
There's been a lot of peoplerunning around.
The big opening ceremony is justa couple of hours away.
Now, Michael, yourresponsibilities here have
already started to get frantic,and you're chairing the
statement writing committee, butcompared to other previous
(11:57):
conferences, it's quite adifferent approach that you're
taking.
Can you take us through themechanics of the decision-making
process for the next uh 48hours?
SPEAKER_03 (12:07):
Yeah.
Uh we've been given the veryclear instructions that this
needs to be a statement thatarises organically out of the
sessions.
And so there's a a very highdegree of participation of those
who are at the conference to beable to frame the final
statement.
The way that that's going towork is that there are going to
be four plenary sessions over uhtomorrow and the next day.
(12:27):
After each of those sessions, uhthere'll be an opportunity for
feedback for people to say, yes,we really want to affirm uh that
thing that came out of thoseplenary sessions.
And from that, uh the statementitself is going to be built.
SPEAKER_05 (12:39):
Now you were showing me this device on the plane on
the way over, and uh it's voteyes for this paragraph, no for
this paragraph, uh, yes withproviso, or or what were the
categories?
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
So this uh for every part of the statement, people
will be able to say yes, theyapprove of that um without
reservation, or yes, but they'dlike to see some suggested
changes, uh, or no, uh this itthis needs to be changed in a
very specific way before I wouldagree with it, or uh no, not at
all.
This this idea shouldn't be inthe final statement.
And our our little statementgroup has to take that feedback
(13:11):
from 400 delegates and uhcombine it into a uh a final
statement.
SPEAKER_05 (13:16):
Now, what's the logic that we're going to work
through over the next 48 hours?
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
Yeah, so the logic is both following the the broad
thrust of the Martyrs Daystatement as well as
specifically following thethemes of the plenary session.
SPEAKER_05 (13:28):
So just for an insider.
SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
That's right.
So that's the uh um uh 16October statement, 16 October
2025 statement, uh issued by thechairman of the uh GAFCON
primates council, uh Mbund Um uhMumbanda, uh Mbanda.
And uh that that really sketchesout a uh the the direction for
the global Anglican Communion.
It's announced that futurebeginning.
(13:55):
The purpose of this conferenceis really to um give give shape
to that announcement and toprovide um the conference uh as
a whole to be able to affirmthat and and really get behind
it.
SPEAKER_05 (14:05):
Now I'm picking up a lot of discussion about detail
and kind of issues that I mightnot have thought of six months
ago that people are saying, butwhat about this and what about
that?
Um I've raised a couple of themin terms of elephants in the
room.
What are some of the elephantsin the room detail things that
we might get stuck on on theway?
SPEAKER_03 (14:23):
Uh I think there's some real questions about um uh
the relationship of um uh uhassenting to the Jerusalem
Declaration with disconnectingwith the Canterbury instruments
of communion.
So in the Martyrs Day statement,it's very clear that uh it's
calling for people that the thebasis of our uh communion, our
our global Anglican communion,is is on the basis of a sense of
(14:45):
the Jerusalem Declaration.
Uh and it's also calling This isthe communion requires
confession thesis.
That's right.
That that our communion is notbased on an institutional
connection with Canterbury, it'sbased on a uh confessional
connection with each other.
Um and so the how how does thatrelate?
How do those two ideas relate?
The the the connection based onconfession and the disconnection
(15:06):
based on on Canterbury, how dowe how to express that uh as a
way of forming the basis of thatnew communion?
That's probably the biggestthing to sort out.
Are you able to leak some of thedetails of what No, I can't,
because as I said, it really hasto emerge from the uh the
consensus of of the commission.
So we'll we'll put up a thesisstatement about how we think it
could work, and then it's up towhether people vote that up or
(15:27):
vote it down or change thelanguage or nuance it in some
way.
So I I wouldn't want to hazard aguest as as to what the uh the
outcome will be.
That would really be to prejudgethe um the process.
Um what are you excited aboutabout the next 48 hours?
I I am really excited to see howGod leads us collectively.
So I think this is anopportunity where uh God,
through his spirit, can uh givedirection to the shape of the
(15:49):
Anglican Communion and seeingthat emerge uh from from the um
the the will of those who aregathered who who hear God's word
expounded and then respond toit.
Uh just seeing that and and uhI'm I'm really excited for what
God is doing to shape the futureof the of the communion.
SPEAKER_05 (16:05):
Now the thing I'm nervous about is Wi-Fi
connection.
SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
Absolutely.
The uh the technology that we'veput together depends on 400
people being able to get ontotheir smartphones or iPads and
then provide feedback.
If the if that doesn't work,we'll be going back to a
paper-based model and then justthe the sheer logistics of
collecting that information,collating it.
I that's that's I I haven'tworked out a plan for that yet.
SPEAKER_05 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, you'll need trauma counselling.
Um so but I mean, you are, Itake it, I mean, at the moment
that you're thinking hard aboutwords and f finalizing those
various theses that go in thatthat's right, but whereas other
people are running aroundsolving, oh yeah, we need 500
devices to be able to the thedevices is not my problem.
SPEAKER_03 (16:47):
So at the moment, the statement group is already
meeting.
We've had our first meeting uhearlier this morning and we'll
be meeting uh over the course oftoday to finalise some of the
wording that's going to be putup for people to provide their
feedback on.
Um some of it's uh uh if I cansay a a little bit deliberately
provocative because I want toprovoke uh people to think, hmm,
do we really want to phrase itin in that that way?
(17:07):
Um so so that we can I don'twant people just saying, oh,
that's perfect already as it is.
I I do actually want people toengage with the wording and say,
does it really capture what weuh So they might pull you back,
for example, on something.
Yeah, that's right.
I've I've uh at a few pointsI've I've used some um
forthright language is probablythe best way to put it.
And and I suspect that we maywant to dial that back a little
bit.
It's a bit like um the theemails that I draft at 10 p.m.
(17:31):
at night that you don't sendthat I don't send and I check in
the morning.
Oh, I don't want to say that andbackspace it out.
So there's a little bit of thatdeliberate uh um edginess to the
statement in its present form.
And I I I I think I would hopethat uh the final version will
be a little bit more nuanced.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (17:47):
Alrighty.
Well, thank you very much fortalking to us, and we'll look
forward to we'll catch you lateron in the week to see how it's
all going.
That is Michael Stead, Bishop ofSouth Sydney, and the chair of
the Statement Writing Committeehere in Abuja, Nigeria.
Now, one of the issues that isbeing felt here at GAFCON is the
complexity of the relationshipthat bishops and dioceses here
(18:08):
in Africa have with how torelate to the wider fellowship.
I picked up that issue as Ispoke earlier today with Bishop
Mawita Akiri.
Bishop Mawita is the formerBishop of Turemi in Tanzania,
and he is the GAFCON officer forTanzania.
Hey Dominic Steele here, comingto you live from Abuja, Nigeria,
(18:29):
for the pastor's heart, andwe're brought to you by
Anglicanaid.org, my guest MawitaAkiri, and uh former bishop of
Turime in Tanzania, and uhreally the coordinator for uh
GAFCON for Tanzania.
Um, lots of people as we've cometowards this conference, some
and really it's come to crunchtime of am I going to align
myself, continue to align myselfwith uh, if you like, the
(18:52):
apostate structures ofCanterbury or the future, the
global Anglican Futuresmovement.
Um they're making decisions.
How are your conversations withpeers going along those lines?
SPEAKER_06 (19:03):
Well, thank you, Dominic.
Uh to be honest, I think thereare historic connections that
Africa has with the Church ofEngland, with the Sea of
Canterbury.
That's one thing.
But in terms of mission, I thinkmost people would agree with me
that the old Canterburystructures uh are no longer
going to serve mission in theAnken Communion.
(19:26):
And therefore, people arelonging to belong to a movement
like GAFCON, which is positionedto further the mission of
Christ.
The only major obstacle to quitea number of people that I speak
to, or the people that I know,is the issue of funding for
development projects.
This is the only thing that ismaking people uh still cling to
(19:49):
the old Ankhan Communion, whichfor uh uh for bad reasons has uh
decided to kill mission uhacross the world.
And if it wasn't just because ofthose historic uh connections,
you know, diocese to diocesepartnership, diocese in province
partnership, I think most peoplewould be in GAFCO, that is for
(20:10):
sure.
So uh I hope that here in Abuja,those of us who have come will
be able to send a message to therest of our brothers and sisters
in Africa that uh GAFCON uh isnow forming what we call the
global Anglican community, atruly global movement, not just
something that is colonial, olduh structure that people feel
(20:32):
good about it, you know.
But uh for us, I think this isthe moment.
SPEAKER_05 (20:37):
I mean, if we just jump in there, Anglican Aid are
really looking to try and helpsome of those aid structures and
take that place of uh ofsupplying funding for projects
in those kind of places thatyou're talking about.
SPEAKER_06 (20:52):
Sure.
And I think uh uh I applaudAnglican Aid as being the
organization that's now takingover uh within the communion the
support for communitydevelopment projects.
Uh we used to haveorganizations, and there are
still some, for example, in techuh that got lots of money.
But Anglican Aid is unique in asense that it's combining both
(21:13):
theological education andcommunity development projects.
So we pray that uh more peoplein Sydney and other places will
support Anglican Aid so thatAnglican Aid can reach out to um
uh the Global South dioceses andsupport them in their
development work.
SPEAKER_05 (21:30):
So, what does it look like in terms of sustaining
f sustainable funding models umfor a rural diocese where they
don't want to compromise theirtheological convictions?
SPEAKER_06 (21:41):
Well, this is quite a thing, and I think sometimes
uh, you know, there are manytypes of poverty.
Uh in uh on the surface, itlooks like a poor person is a
person without sufficientincome, without uh food, or
without uh uh other necessities.
Uh but those necessities are notnecessarily the ones that are
(22:02):
making people poor in thiscontinent of Africa.
I think mental poverty andspiritual poverty can be a big
problem, which is making peopleuh who are poor feel
intimidated.
And yet, in my view, uh onedoesn't need to compromise their
faith in order to get money fordevelopment work.
(22:22):
Still, there is a lot that wecan do, even in our poor
situations, poor context, to beable to remain faithful to the
gospel of Christ withoutcompromising that faith for the
(23:02):
sake of development projects.
So, my appeal to my brothers andsisters, having been a diaspant
bishop for 15 years until Iretired uh last year, and having
worked in an area where bothresources, financial and uh
human, are very little, butgrowing the church and remaining
faithful to the gospel.
So I think remaining faithful tothe gospel is essential
(23:22):
regardless of all these otherissues of poverty uh that people
face in their uh normalsituations uh in the rural
areas.
SPEAKER_05 (23:30):
I was excited to hear that your successor in
Tarime is here at uh uh atGAFCON uh this conference.
SPEAKER_06 (23:36):
Yes, John Yayataram Suma is the bishop uh of Tarima
now.
Uh luckily he's joined uh GAFCONTanzania and he's at this
conference.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (23:44):
Now um how does girl I mean girls' education has been
something that uh the time I'veknown you has been a big, big
thing for you to champion.
Um uh why is that so significantin your part of I mean, just
near the Serengeti, there arethere are there's female genital
mutil mutilation, that kind ofthing.
Why is what are you doing tocombat all of that?
SPEAKER_06 (24:07):
Yeah, our first goal is to uh stop early marriages,
what we call child marriages,because girls at the age of 15
or 16 get married.
These are children.
And you know the the reason whythey didn't go past seven years
schooling, which is primaryschool level.
So what we've done is to uh seekpartners, uh Anglican aid and
(24:28):
others, to build a school forgirls, a boarding school for
girls, so that they can actuallygo beyond seven years schooling,
do secondary education, andthereafter, God willing, uh they
get uh to high school and thenget to education.
Now, it's not just about atemporary thing of stopping
early marriage, it's also aboutcreating champions of change.
(24:50):
If these people can learn in aChristian environment and then
study, not be uh uh circumcisedor have their genitals
mutilated, then they can comeback and tell the story.
You know, you don't have to beuh enslaved by this uh culture
to be able to be uh a humanbeing.
I mean, you can be fully humanwithin or in Jesus Christ and
(25:12):
still be able to pursueeducation and become uh uh a
normal person in a society likeours where female gender
mutilation is one of the uhelements uh of traditional
legend.
So we are really uh hoping thatin the long run we will create
an army of girls who can say, Ilove Jesus, but I'm also
(25:33):
educated, and I don't have to bemutilated to have uh a place in
society.
So that's what we're trying todo.
SPEAKER_05 (25:39):
I mean, it I'm just so impressed and so thankful.
And uh when we were able tovisit you a year or so ago, and
uh my wife and I were able tovisit you, and um I I do know
that my wife particularly, butalso me, um, just thought this
is a great work, and we're sothankful for the work that
anglicanaid.org are doing infacilitating that.
And thanks so much for talkingto us, Mawita.
SPEAKER_06 (26:02):
Thank you.
Thank you, Dominic.
SPEAKER_05 (26:03):
That is Bishop Mawita Akiri, who is the former
Bishop of Turemi, Tanzania, andthe GAFCON officer for Tanzania.
Now, one of the things that hasbeen astonishing here is that
the Kigali commitment was soclear in 2023.
Really, it was extraordinarilystrong in its criticism of the
Church of England leadership.
(26:24):
And for two years, really,there's been silence from the
Church of England, um, exceptfor kind of platitudes that we
want to walk together even whenwe're in clear disagreement.
I asked Bishop Andy Lyons of theUK and uh about this.
Bishop Lyons is the Bishop ofthe Anglican Church in Europe
network.
Now I'm with Andy Lyons,presiding bishop of the Anglican
(26:46):
Network in Europe.
Andy, I've just been reflectingthat uh whereas the mood in
Kigali was very somber, umcrikey, it's come to this, you
know.
Um I feel like the mood here iswell, it's it's not really
emotional, it's we've got to geton with business.
Is that your read of things?
SPEAKER_04 (27:06):
I think it is, because nothing that was uh
stated at the Martyr's Daystatement in October last year
is actually new.
It is just trying to crystallisesomething that has been going on
for a number of years.
So this is business to getgoing, but we're also conscious.
I I think I was struck in Kigaliby the fact that uh Sudan was
(27:27):
went into meltdown and peoplewere delayed getting there from
from that uh province.
And uh this time it's the theMiddle East situation and
things.
So we've got a context withinwhich we're working, but yes,
business, let's keep going.
SPEAKER_05 (27:40):
And and both you and I know people who've not been
able to come, who were coming upuntil 48 hours ago.
SPEAKER_04 (27:45):
Yes, yeah.
So that that's really sad thatwe've lost some, but uh most
provinces seem to be representedat least.
SPEAKER_05 (27:52):
Now, what's your read on what's been going on in
the United Kingdom um and thereaction to well, I'm I'm
thinking particularly of the thewind back most recently um by
the bishops of the Anglican ofthe Church of England.
Yeah.
Well, um for those what weshould say, wine back on the
(28:12):
sexuality teaching.
SPEAKER_04 (28:13):
Particularly on the programme of Living in Love and
Faith, the LLF programme.
Uh in I was in Uganda at thetime that that no news came out
through the BBC, and uh Iimmediately had to do some
briefing of our Ugandan hostswho were quite encouraged, I
think, by what they were hearingfrom the BBC.
But uh I think mostcommentators, including insiders
(28:35):
within the Church of England,that that is not me, but uh many
of those within the Church ofEngland are cautioning, being
over-optimistic, that theprogramme may have stopped.
That is the kind of headline,but the uh the movement
continues, and that is therewasn't really a sense of
repentance from the Britishbishops.
Not at all.
No.
(28:56):
Uh it is recognizing that theycould not pursue the program as
they had conceived it, but uhthinking of well, how are we
going to do this as we moveforward?
Yeah, and with no repentance,then actually this whole process
needs to keep going.
Yes, very much so.
So we we've got to get going andnot be dependent on waiting on
some decision that may or maynot happen in the Church of
(29:18):
England.
SPEAKER_05 (29:19):
Now, let's assume that the global Anglican
Communion does come into umbeing over the next um 48, 72
hours.
Um how does that impact theministry that you're involved
in?
And uh um well, lots of peoplewill be watching, not exactly
sure what it all means, the theministry that you're in involved
(29:40):
with, the uh the Anglicannetwork in Europe?
SPEAKER_04 (29:43):
Well, the Anglican network in Europe is three
dioceses.
All of them are outside of theexisting structures of um the
Church of Ireland, Church inWales, Scottish Episcopal
Church, and the Church ofEngland.
So those are the four provincesthat cover Europe.
Uh, all the people in ourdioceses are outside of that.
(30:03):
They're not dependent.
We are dependent on GAFCON,actually.
That they were responsible forrecognizing us and founding us
and and getting us going andencouraging us.
So we've got more of the same.
We've got the task of missionfor the whole of Europe, 732
million people, most of whomhave no living faith in Christ.
That is our primary agenda.
(30:24):
We are we have tried uh in thepast to um uh to make offers to
folk to help people who arecontending within the Church of
England, those who areconfessionally the same as us,
um, for different reasons.
Those haven't particularly seenmuch fruition.
Uh, and so we're leaving thedoors open.
SPEAKER_05 (30:42):
But little by little, it I mean, my
observation is little by little,it does seem like you're
growing, and in fact growingquite significantly.
SPEAKER_04 (30:49):
Well, yes, we're we have now more than a hundred
congregations, many of them verysmall, and we're certainly
fragile and weak, uh, and weknow how much there is still to
do.
But yes, we are growing.
Each of the three dioceses uhunder God's grace have grown in
the last year.
SPEAKER_05 (31:04):
And I'm imagining that uh particularly young men
who are thinking, I'll give mylife to serving Christ.
I mean, on the one hand, thereis in a sense uh security in the
Church of England, but actuallysuch a compromised uh
institution.
I'm imagining more young men aresaying, I want to come on the
adventure with you guys.
SPEAKER_04 (31:26):
Well, we're certainly seeing interest, and I
would say that there's somestrong headwinds in England
because of what's been going onin the Church of England, um, in
terms of whether people actuallywant to remain Anglican, whether
they don't want to throw intheir lot with another or the um
Presbyterians or or something,but there are many who are
(31:46):
convinced by Anglican policythat it isn't the policy itself
that was wrong, uh, that it'sjust been badly handled, and uh
they're really encouragedgenerally by what they
experience in the network, Ithink.
And I think over in uh thecontinental Europe, I'm noticing
that there are people who arereally open, they've they've
come from Catholic or Lutheranor Orthodox backgrounds, and
(32:10):
they don't see uh an equivalentreforming movement like GAFCON
there, and uh so they arehunting out.
So I've had connections withpeople in Poland and in France
and elsewhere who have foundtheir way, they've read
themselves in, they've looked atthe Jerusalem Declaration, they
like what they see, and theywant to be part of us.
SPEAKER_05 (32:30):
What are you particularly hoping will come
out of these next 72 hours,particularly as it relates to
your patch?
SPEAKER_04 (32:36):
Well, I think some clarity, it would be wonderful
to have a reaffirmed commitmentum by the GAC movement, if
that's what we're gonna do.
No, no, no, no.
We're an anti-ancronym program.
SPEAKER_05 (32:46):
You can't call it a GAC.
SPEAKER_04 (32:48):
Let's call it global anglicanism.
Yeah.
Global Anglicans, all right.
Um, if that uh gets continued ummomentum from this week, uh then
we would love to see greaterclarity, um, recognition of us
as a legitimate um uh Anglicanexpression of orthodoxy, and uh
the wonderful partnership thatwe've are already beginning to
(33:10):
develop with um provinces aroundthe world.
So clarity would be reallyhelpful for us.
SPEAKER_05 (33:16):
Andy Lyons, thanks very much for talking to us.
Andy Lyons, the presiding bishopof the Anglican Network in
Europe.
Although, about to change yourname too?
Uh the Anglican Church ofEurope.
Uh the network means nothing tomost people.
To Anglican Church of Europe.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We're coming to you live fromAbuja.
We're brought to you by AnglicanAid.
This is the Pastor's Heart, afull special later today.
(33:37):
That is Andy Lyons from theUnited Kingdom, and well, that's
day one of our coverage of theBig GAFCON conference here in
Abuja, Nigeria, for the Pastor'sHeart, brought to you by
AnglicanAid.org.
My name's Dominic Steele, andwe'll look forward to your
company tomorrow when we bringyou all the action from day two.
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
I studied Diploma in Theology atBundar Bible College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02 (01:27):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit Anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_05 (01:47):
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
Come out of them and beseparate, says the Lord.
Let us purify ourselves fromeverything that contaminates.
I've read that passage, I'vepreached that passage, but
tonight the atmosphere waselectric as the Holy Spirit did
his work here in the cathedralin Abuja, Nigeria, and God's
word was applied to our hearts.
(02:07):
The Archbishop of Nigeria, HenryNdekaba, brought the word of God
and we heard it.
And by we, I mean primates,archbishops, bishops, clergy,
and the people of God,Christians gathered here in
Abuja, Nigeria, from rightacross the world.
It is Dominic Steele, and we'recoming to you from Nigeria
within the Pastor's HeartSpecial on the future of the
(02:28):
Anglican Communion, the bigconference getting underway
here.
Our coverage, a 30-minutespecial every day this week,
brought to you byAnglicanaid.org.
Glenn Davies is with me, formerArchbishop of Sydney, now Bishop
of the GAFCON AuthorizedAustralian Southern Cross
Diocese.
You've got a series of hatshere, uh, Glenn, in Abuja, one
(02:48):
of which is a statement writingcommittee.
But let's start with yourpastor's heart.
And uh, as you sat under theWord of God this evening
listening to the Archbishop ofNigeria, what was going through
your heart?
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Well, as a communion service tonight, and one of the
prayers of the prayerpreparation cleanse cleanse the
thoughts of our hearts andminds, and that sense in which
to realize that God's peopleneed to be pure and holy.
And uh the Archbishop of allNigeria gave a sterling address
with regard to just the verythings you've talked about.
That if we're to be God'speople, we're to move away and
(03:24):
eschew immorality, ungodliness,and pursue righteousness and
holiness, because that's whatGod wants, a holy people.
We are saints of the Most High,and therefore that's our
calling, and that should be putinto action in our lives.
SPEAKER_05 (03:38):
It's it's felt wow, we really are getting down to
business um with with the startof the the service this evening.
I think in uh GAFCON 23 inRwanda, um the mood was well,
really a somberness that wow,it's come to this, the
disobedience of the Church ofEngland.
(03:58):
Um but the the mood here iscompletely different.
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Well, the mood is jubilation, I think.
Uh the Apostle Paul writes uhwarn a brother twice once and or
twice, and then have nothing todo with him.
We've been warning therevisionists for decades, a
quarter of a century, and theywill not repent from their
foolish ways.
So the sense in which we'regoing to reorder, reform the
(04:24):
Church of England, just likeCranmer reformed reformed the
Anglican Communion, just likeCranmer reformed the Church of
England.
When he stepped back from Rome,an apostate church which didn't
deserve the name of being holy,apostolic, Catholic, and
unified.
So that sense in which we arejubilant because we are
recognizing that we are theglobal Anglican communion.
(04:47):
Look at this over 300 bishopsfrom around the world, 24
provinces from around the world.
It's just wonderful.
We're united in the gospel andthe Anglican formularies, the
Book of Common Prayer, and the39 articles grounded in the
scriptures.
That's what that's who we are,and that's what we're moving
forward to being.
SPEAKER_05 (05:06):
There's a penny drop moment uh in the service tonight
when he said uh that just as theChurch of Rome has erred, the
Church of England has erred.
SPEAKER_01 (05:15):
Sadly, that is the case.
A crammer would roll over in hisgrave because when they in 2023,
which was the year of the KigaliGafcon Assembly, in that year
beginning, of course, the Churchof England, through its bishops
and the hopeless leadership thatthey gave the general synod,
they approved by a very narrowmajority in clergy and lay to
(05:37):
bless same-sex unions and tobless that which is sin does not
glorify God.
You cannot sanctify sin.
SPEAKER_05 (05:45):
Now, what about the global south?
The expectation coming out ofKigali was that the uh
leadership of the global southand the uh GAFCON primates would
be working together to establishthis new global communion.
Now, there are some global southprimates here, but quite a lot
have stayed away.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Yes, there are there are three global south primates
here actually.
And I think the wonderfulannouncement they made in Ash
Wednesday 2023, just before theKigali conference, that that was
the strongest statement theyever made about resetting the
communion and working withGAFCON.
So when our we wrote our Kigalicommitment in 2023, we endorsed
(06:24):
that and said, yes, we want towork with the global south.
And we set up uh a task force tomeet with them.
But sadly, I'm sorry to say,they have not responded to the
overtures which we've given.
And more than once over the lastnearly two years, nearly two and
a half years, have we beenaddressing this issue.
And so we came to the point inOctober last year when the
(06:47):
GAFCON Prime had said, enough isenough.
We will go it by ourselves.
By your all means, you'rewelcome to join us, Global South
Fellowship of Confess of Ang ofChurches, but we're gonna we're
gonna reform and reorder theAnglican Communion, and that's
what we've done, and this is acelebration of that very
marvellous statement they madein October.
SPEAKER_05 (07:09):
Now, uh I've been talking to people the last
couple of days and um and justhearing the snippets of uh, if
you like, preparation that'sbeen going into the thinking.
And it feels like, I mean, if wehad made this decision back in
2023 in Rwanda, I'm justcomparing and contrasting it
really.
Um, it's a much more maturedecision now with two years of
(07:31):
reflection and a whole lot ofdetail has been worked out.
SPEAKER_01 (07:35):
Uh, you're quite right.
And there's still more detail tobe done.
Where we're restructuring theGAFCON Primates Council.
It will no longer be the GAFCOPrimates Council, it'll be the
uh uh it'll be the the AnglicanAnglican the Global Anglican
Council.
That's what it's going tobecome.
And that will be announcedthrough this week.
And that new council will notjust be primates, it'll have
(07:58):
some lay and uh other clergythere as well.
So it'll be a representativebody for the global Anglican
Communion.
It won't be Canterbury-centric.
We've moved away fromCanterbury-centric instruments
of communion, and we're doingjust what Cranmer did uh back in
the 16th century.
And so this is true Anglicanismto step away from heresy, to
(08:20):
step away from that which isdispleasing in God's sight, and
to move in a direction which isgoing to glorify the Lord Jesus
and empower mission so that morepeople might hear the gospel of
the Lord Jesus and turn to himto be saved.
That's our passion.
SPEAKER_05 (08:35):
Now, a couple of elephants in the room.
What do you do with um peoplewho are with GAFCON
theologically and yet want tostay aligned with Canterbury?
SPEAKER_01 (08:45):
Well, I it depends on the leadership of such
provinces.
Uh they if they want to be ininvolved into the GAFCON into
the Global Anglican Council,then they really can't be
involved in the instruments ofcommunion.
So, but the ordinarycongregations who have got
(09:08):
nothing to do with theinstruments of communion.
I mean, I imagine yourcongregation wouldn't even know
anything about the instrumentsof communion, uh, so they
understand what communion means,but that's instruments, you
know, that's you know, that'sfor dinner time.
So that sense in which anycongregation in a mixed diocese,
any diocese in a mixed provinceand any province can affirm the
(09:30):
Jerusalem Declaration, and theleadership could be involved in
that uh global Anglican Council.
But uh if the leadership choosesto be with the instruments, well
they can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, but that won't
actually enable them toparticipate personally.
But the members of the churchesbelow them may well want to, and
that'll be a wonderful thing.
(09:50):
So the Diocese of Sydney, forexample, we've affirmed, adopted
the uh Jerusalem Declaration in2008, half just after it was
done.
And uh we we can fullyparticipate because we have not
supported ACC since 1994, Ibelieve.
We uh we uh we don't have muchwe never we haven't been to a
Lambeth conference since 1998.
(10:12):
So Sydney is very much a partand participant in the global
Anglican Communion, and but itdoesn't override the fact that
constitutionally we're incommunion with the Church of
England, but we're an impairedcommunion with the Church of
England.
We can't and have been for along time, but we're not using
the language of being incommunion, we're using the
language of partnership.
(10:32):
That's true koinonia.
Fellowship is what we have, andthe Diocese of Sydney and also
the diocese of Southern Cross isvery much a partner with the
global Anglican Communion, mostmany of which are represented
here in Abuja.
SPEAKER_05 (10:46):
Glenn, thanks very much for talking to us here on
the Pastor's Heart.
Thank you.
That's Glenn Davies, and uh,this is a special edition of The
Pastor's Heart, live from Abuja,Nigeria, brought to you by
Anglicana.org.
And it is day one of the bigGAFCON conference here today.
Earlier this afternoon, I spokewith Michael Stead, current
bishop of South Sydney, but herein Abuja, Nigeria, Michael is
(11:07):
acting as the chair of thestatement writing committee.
We spoke in the main auditorium,which was being fitted out at
the time for all the plenarysessions, which will start there
tomorrow morning.
Um, Michael, let's just uh lookaround us for a moment, and uh
uh it's all systems go in thisbuilding at the moment.
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Uh absolutely.
As I look around, I can seethey're still putting together
the stage.
Uh, there's a big team of peopletrying to get it all together
ready for tomorrow morning.
SPEAKER_05 (11:35):
Yeah, and I can hear the vacuum matches starting off
downstairs, but we've beenlistening to sound checks.
There's been a lot of peoplerunning around.
The big opening ceremony is justa couple of hours away.
Now, Michael, yourresponsibilities here have
already started to get frantic,and you're chairing the
statement writing committee, butcompared to other previous
(11:57):
conferences, it's quite adifferent approach that you're
taking.
Can you take us through themechanics of the decision-making
process for the next uh 48hours?
SPEAKER_03 (12:07):
Yeah.
Uh we've been given the veryclear instructions that this
needs to be a statement thatarises organically out of the
sessions.
And so there's a a very highdegree of participation of those
who are at the conference to beable to frame the final
statement.
The way that that's going towork is that there are going to
be four plenary sessions over uhtomorrow and the next day.
(12:27):
After each of those sessions, uhthere'll be an opportunity for
feedback for people to say, yes,we really want to affirm uh that
thing that came out of thoseplenary sessions.
And from that, uh the statementitself is going to be built.
SPEAKER_05 (12:39):
Now you were showing me this device on the plane on
the way over, and uh it's voteyes for this paragraph, no for
this paragraph, uh, yes withproviso, or or what were the
categories?
SPEAKER_03 (12:50):
So this uh for every part of the statement, people
will be able to say yes, theyapprove of that um without
reservation, or yes, but they'dlike to see some suggested
changes, uh, or no, uh this itthis needs to be changed in a
very specific way before I wouldagree with it, or uh no, not at
all.
This this idea shouldn't be inthe final statement.
And our our little statementgroup has to take that feedback
(13:11):
from 400 delegates and uhcombine it into a uh a final
statement.
SPEAKER_05 (13:16):
Now, what's the logic that we're going to work
through over the next 48 hours?
SPEAKER_03 (13:20):
Yeah, so the logic is both following the the broad
thrust of the Martyrs Daystatement as well as
specifically following thethemes of the plenary session.
SPEAKER_05 (13:28):
So just for an insider.
SPEAKER_03 (13:34):
That's right.
So that's the uh um uh 16October statement, 16 October
2025 statement, uh issued by thechairman of the uh GAFCON
primates council, uh Mbund Um uhMumbanda, uh Mbanda.
And uh that that really sketchesout a uh the the direction for
the global Anglican Communion.
It's announced that futurebeginning.
(13:55):
The purpose of this conferenceis really to um give give shape
to that announcement and toprovide um the conference uh as
a whole to be able to affirmthat and and really get behind
it.
SPEAKER_05 (14:05):
Now I'm picking up a lot of discussion about detail
and kind of issues that I mightnot have thought of six months
ago that people are saying, butwhat about this and what about
that?
Um I've raised a couple of themin terms of elephants in the
room.
What are some of the elephantsin the room detail things that
we might get stuck on on theway?
SPEAKER_03 (14:23):
Uh I think there's some real questions about um uh
the relationship of um uh uhassenting to the Jerusalem
Declaration with disconnectingwith the Canterbury instruments
of communion.
So in the Martyrs Day statement,it's very clear that uh it's
calling for people that the thebasis of our uh communion, our
our global Anglican communion,is is on the basis of a sense of
(14:45):
the Jerusalem Declaration.
Uh and it's also calling This isthe communion requires
confession thesis.
That's right.
That that our communion is notbased on an institutional
connection with Canterbury, it'sbased on a uh confessional
connection with each other.
Um and so the how how does thatrelate?
How do those two ideas relate?
The the the connection based onconfession and the disconnection
(15:06):
based on on Canterbury, how dowe how to express that uh as a
way of forming the basis of thatnew communion?
That's probably the biggestthing to sort out.
Are you able to leak some of thedetails of what No, I can't,
because as I said, it really hasto emerge from the uh the
consensus of of the commission.
So we'll we'll put up a thesisstatement about how we think it
could work, and then it's up towhether people vote that up or
(15:27):
vote it down or change thelanguage or nuance it in some
way.
So I I wouldn't want to hazard aguest as as to what the uh the
outcome will be.
That would really be to prejudgethe um the process.
Um what are you excited aboutabout the next 48 hours?
I I am really excited to see howGod leads us collectively.
So I think this is anopportunity where uh God,
through his spirit, can uh givedirection to the shape of the
(15:49):
Anglican Communion and seeingthat emerge uh from from the um
the the will of those who aregathered who who hear God's word
expounded and then respond toit.
Uh just seeing that and and uhI'm I'm really excited for what
God is doing to shape the futureof the of the communion.
SPEAKER_05 (16:05):
Now the thing I'm nervous about is Wi-Fi
connection.
SPEAKER_03 (16:09):
Absolutely.
The uh the technology that we'veput together depends on 400
people being able to get ontotheir smartphones or iPads and
then provide feedback.
If the if that doesn't work,we'll be going back to a
paper-based model and then justthe the sheer logistics of
collecting that information,collating it.
I that's that's I I haven'tworked out a plan for that yet.
SPEAKER_05 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, you'll need trauma counselling.
Um so but I mean, you are, Itake it, I mean, at the moment
that you're thinking hard aboutwords and f finalizing those
various theses that go in thatthat's right, but whereas other
people are running aroundsolving, oh yeah, we need 500
devices to be able to the thedevices is not my problem.
SPEAKER_03 (16:47):
So at the moment, the statement group is already
meeting.
We've had our first meeting uhearlier this morning and we'll
be meeting uh over the course oftoday to finalise some of the
wording that's going to be putup for people to provide their
feedback on.
Um some of it's uh uh if I cansay a a little bit deliberately
provocative because I want toprovoke uh people to think, hmm,
do we really want to phrase itin in that that way?
(17:07):
Um so so that we can I don'twant people just saying, oh,
that's perfect already as it is.
I I do actually want people toengage with the wording and say,
does it really capture what weuh So they might pull you back,
for example, on something.
Yeah, that's right.
I've I've uh at a few pointsI've I've used some um
forthright language is probablythe best way to put it.
And and I suspect that we maywant to dial that back a little
bit.
It's a bit like um the theemails that I draft at 10 p.m.
(17:31):
at night that you don't sendthat I don't send and I check in
the morning.
Oh, I don't want to say that andbackspace it out.
So there's a little bit of thatdeliberate uh um edginess to the
statement in its present form.
And I I I I think I would hopethat uh the final version will
be a little bit more nuanced.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (17:47):
Alrighty.
Well, thank you very much fortalking to us, and we'll look
forward to we'll catch you lateron in the week to see how it's
all going.
That is Michael Stead, Bishop ofSouth Sydney, and the chair of
the Statement Writing Committeehere in Abuja, Nigeria.
Now, one of the issues that isbeing felt here at GAFCON is the
complexity of the relationshipthat bishops and dioceses here
(18:08):
in Africa have with how torelate to the wider fellowship.
I picked up that issue as Ispoke earlier today with Bishop
Mawita Akiri.
Bishop Mawita is the formerBishop of Turemi in Tanzania,
and he is the GAFCON officer forTanzania.
Hey Dominic Steele here, comingto you live from Abuja, Nigeria,
(18:29):
for the pastor's heart, andwe're brought to you by
Anglicanaid.org, my guest MawitaAkiri, and uh former bishop of
Turime in Tanzania, and uhreally the coordinator for uh
GAFCON for Tanzania.
Um, lots of people as we've cometowards this conference, some
and really it's come to crunchtime of am I going to align
myself, continue to align myselfwith uh, if you like, the
(18:52):
apostate structures ofCanterbury or the future, the
global Anglican Futuresmovement.
Um they're making decisions.
How are your conversations withpeers going along those lines?
SPEAKER_06 (19:03):
Well, thank you, Dominic.
Uh to be honest, I think thereare historic connections that
Africa has with the Church ofEngland, with the Sea of
Canterbury.
That's one thing.
But in terms of mission, I thinkmost people would agree with me
that the old Canterburystructures uh are no longer
going to serve mission in theAnken Communion.
(19:26):
And therefore, people arelonging to belong to a movement
like GAFCON, which is positionedto further the mission of
Christ.
The only major obstacle to quitea number of people that I speak
to, or the people that I know,is the issue of funding for
development projects.
This is the only thing that ismaking people uh still cling to
(19:49):
the old Ankhan Communion, whichfor uh uh for bad reasons has uh
decided to kill mission uhacross the world.
And if it wasn't just because ofthose historic uh connections,
you know, diocese to diocesepartnership, diocese in province
partnership, I think most peoplewould be in GAFCO, that is for
(20:10):
sure.
So uh I hope that here in Abuja,those of us who have come will
be able to send a message to therest of our brothers and sisters
in Africa that uh GAFCON uh isnow forming what we call the
global Anglican community, atruly global movement, not just
something that is colonial, olduh structure that people feel
(20:32):
good about it, you know.
But uh for us, I think this isthe moment.
SPEAKER_05 (20:37):
I mean, if we just jump in there, Anglican Aid are
really looking to try and helpsome of those aid structures and
take that place of uh ofsupplying funding for projects
in those kind of places thatyou're talking about.
SPEAKER_06 (20:52):
Sure.
And I think uh uh I applaudAnglican Aid as being the
organization that's now takingover uh within the communion the
support for communitydevelopment projects.
Uh we used to haveorganizations, and there are
still some, for example, in techuh that got lots of money.
But Anglican Aid is unique in asense that it's combining both
(21:13):
theological education andcommunity development projects.
So we pray that uh more peoplein Sydney and other places will
support Anglican Aid so thatAnglican Aid can reach out to um
uh the Global South dioceses andsupport them in their
development work.
SPEAKER_05 (21:30):
So, what does it look like in terms of sustaining
f sustainable funding models umfor a rural diocese where they
don't want to compromise theirtheological convictions?
SPEAKER_06 (21:41):
Well, this is quite a thing, and I think sometimes
uh, you know, there are manytypes of poverty.
Uh in uh on the surface, itlooks like a poor person is a
person without sufficientincome, without uh food, or
without uh uh other necessities.
Uh but those necessities are notnecessarily the ones that are
(22:02):
making people poor in thiscontinent of Africa.
I think mental poverty andspiritual poverty can be a big
problem, which is making peopleuh who are poor feel
intimidated.
And yet, in my view, uh onedoesn't need to compromise their
faith in order to get money fordevelopment work.
(22:22):
Still, there is a lot that wecan do, even in our poor
situations, poor context, to beable to remain faithful to the
gospel of Christ withoutcompromising that faith for the
(23:02):
sake of development projects.
So, my appeal to my brothers andsisters, having been a diaspant
bishop for 15 years until Iretired uh last year, and having
worked in an area where bothresources, financial and uh
human, are very little, butgrowing the church and remaining
faithful to the gospel.
So I think remaining faithful tothe gospel is essential
(23:22):
regardless of all these otherissues of poverty uh that people
face in their uh normalsituations uh in the rural
areas.
SPEAKER_05 (23:30):
I was excited to hear that your successor in
Tarime is here at uh uh atGAFCON uh this conference.
SPEAKER_06 (23:36):
Yes, John Yayataram Suma is the bishop uh of Tarima
now.
Uh luckily he's joined uh GAFCONTanzania and he's at this
conference.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (23:44):
Now um how does girl I mean girls' education has been
something that uh the time I'veknown you has been a big, big
thing for you to champion.
Um uh why is that so significantin your part of I mean, just
near the Serengeti, there arethere are there's female genital
mutil mutilation, that kind ofthing.
Why is what are you doing tocombat all of that?
SPEAKER_06 (24:07):
Yeah, our first goal is to uh stop early marriages,
what we call child marriages,because girls at the age of 15
or 16 get married.
These are children.
And you know the the reason whythey didn't go past seven years
schooling, which is primaryschool level.
So what we've done is to uh seekpartners, uh Anglican aid and
(24:28):
others, to build a school forgirls, a boarding school for
girls, so that they can actuallygo beyond seven years schooling,
do secondary education, andthereafter, God willing, uh they
get uh to high school and thenget to education.
Now, it's not just about atemporary thing of stopping
early marriage, it's also aboutcreating champions of change.
(24:50):
If these people can learn in aChristian environment and then
study, not be uh uh circumcisedor have their genitals
mutilated, then they can comeback and tell the story.
You know, you don't have to beuh enslaved by this uh culture
to be able to be uh a humanbeing.
I mean, you can be fully humanwithin or in Jesus Christ and
(25:12):
still be able to pursueeducation and become uh uh a
normal person in a society likeours where female gender
mutilation is one of the uhelements uh of traditional
legend.
So we are really uh hoping thatin the long run we will create
an army of girls who can say, Ilove Jesus, but I'm also
(25:33):
educated, and I don't have to bemutilated to have uh a place in
society.
So that's what we're trying todo.
SPEAKER_05 (25:39):
I mean, it I'm just so impressed and so thankful.
And uh when we were able tovisit you a year or so ago, and
uh my wife and I were able tovisit you, and um I I do know
that my wife particularly, butalso me, um, just thought this
is a great work, and we're sothankful for the work that
anglicanaid.org are doing infacilitating that.
And thanks so much for talkingto us, Mawita.
SPEAKER_06 (26:02):
Thank you.
Thank you, Dominic.
SPEAKER_05 (26:03):
That is Bishop Mawita Akiri, who is the former
Bishop of Turemi, Tanzania, andthe GAFCON officer for Tanzania.
Now, one of the things that hasbeen astonishing here is that
the Kigali commitment was soclear in 2023.
Really, it was extraordinarilystrong in its criticism of the
Church of England leadership.
(26:24):
And for two years, really,there's been silence from the
Church of England, um, exceptfor kind of platitudes that we
want to walk together even whenwe're in clear disagreement.
I asked Bishop Andy Lyons of theUK and uh about this.
Bishop Lyons is the Bishop ofthe Anglican Church in Europe
network.
Now I'm with Andy Lyons,presiding bishop of the Anglican
(26:46):
Network in Europe.
Andy, I've just been reflectingthat uh whereas the mood in
Kigali was very somber, umcrikey, it's come to this, you
know.
Um I feel like the mood here iswell, it's it's not really
emotional, it's we've got to geton with business.
Is that your read of things?
SPEAKER_04 (27:06):
I think it is, because nothing that was uh
stated at the Martyr's Daystatement in October last year
is actually new.
It is just trying to crystallisesomething that has been going on
for a number of years.
So this is business to getgoing, but we're also conscious.
I I think I was struck in Kigaliby the fact that uh Sudan was
(27:27):
went into meltdown and peoplewere delayed getting there from
from that uh province.
And uh this time it's the theMiddle East situation and
things.
So we've got a context withinwhich we're working, but yes,
business, let's keep going.
SPEAKER_05 (27:40):
And and both you and I know people who've not been
able to come, who were coming upuntil 48 hours ago.
SPEAKER_04 (27:45):
Yes, yeah.
So that that's really sad thatwe've lost some, but uh most
provinces seem to be representedat least.
SPEAKER_05 (27:52):
Now, what's your read on what's been going on in
the United Kingdom um and thereaction to well, I'm I'm
thinking particularly of the thewind back most recently um by
the bishops of the Anglican ofthe Church of England.
Yeah.
Well, um for those what weshould say, wine back on the
(28:12):
sexuality teaching.
SPEAKER_04 (28:13):
Particularly on the programme of Living in Love and
Faith, the LLF programme.
Uh in I was in Uganda at thetime that that no news came out
through the BBC, and uh Iimmediately had to do some
briefing of our Ugandan hostswho were quite encouraged, I
think, by what they were hearingfrom the BBC.
But uh I think mostcommentators, including insiders
(28:35):
within the Church of England,that that is not me, but uh many
of those within the Church ofEngland are cautioning, being
over-optimistic, that theprogramme may have stopped.
That is the kind of headline,but the uh the movement
continues, and that is therewasn't really a sense of
repentance from the Britishbishops.
Not at all.
No.
(28:56):
Uh it is recognizing that theycould not pursue the program as
they had conceived it, but uhthinking of well, how are we
going to do this as we moveforward?
Yeah, and with no repentance,then actually this whole process
needs to keep going.
Yes, very much so.
So we we've got to get going andnot be dependent on waiting on
some decision that may or maynot happen in the Church of
(29:18):
England.
SPEAKER_05 (29:19):
Now, let's assume that the global Anglican
Communion does come into umbeing over the next um 48, 72
hours.
Um how does that impact theministry that you're involved
in?
And uh um well, lots of peoplewill be watching, not exactly
sure what it all means, the theministry that you're in involved
(29:40):
with, the uh the Anglicannetwork in Europe?
SPEAKER_04 (29:43):
Well, the Anglican network in Europe is three
dioceses.
All of them are outside of theexisting structures of um the
Church of Ireland, Church inWales, Scottish Episcopal
Church, and the Church ofEngland.
So those are the four provincesthat cover Europe.
Uh, all the people in ourdioceses are outside of that.
(30:03):
They're not dependent.
We are dependent on GAFCON,actually.
That they were responsible forrecognizing us and founding us
and and getting us going andencouraging us.
So we've got more of the same.
We've got the task of missionfor the whole of Europe, 732
million people, most of whomhave no living faith in Christ.
That is our primary agenda.
(30:24):
We are we have tried uh in thepast to um uh to make offers to
folk to help people who arecontending within the Church of
England, those who areconfessionally the same as us,
um, for different reasons.
Those haven't particularly seenmuch fruition.
Uh, and so we're leaving thedoors open.
SPEAKER_05 (30:42):
But little by little, it I mean, my
observation is little by little,it does seem like you're
growing, and in fact growingquite significantly.
SPEAKER_04 (30:49):
Well, yes, we're we have now more than a hundred
congregations, many of them verysmall, and we're certainly
fragile and weak, uh, and weknow how much there is still to
do.
But yes, we are growing.
Each of the three dioceses uhunder God's grace have grown in
the last year.
SPEAKER_05 (31:04):
And I'm imagining that uh particularly young men
who are thinking, I'll give mylife to serving Christ.
I mean, on the one hand, thereis in a sense uh security in the
Church of England, but actuallysuch a compromised uh
institution.
I'm imagining more young men aresaying, I want to come on the
adventure with you guys.
SPEAKER_04 (31:26):
Well, we're certainly seeing interest, and I
would say that there's somestrong headwinds in England
because of what's been going onin the Church of England, um, in
terms of whether people actuallywant to remain Anglican, whether
they don't want to throw intheir lot with another or the um
Presbyterians or or something,but there are many who are
(31:46):
convinced by Anglican policythat it isn't the policy itself
that was wrong, uh, that it'sjust been badly handled, and uh
they're really encouragedgenerally by what they
experience in the network, Ithink.
And I think over in uh thecontinental Europe, I'm noticing
that there are people who arereally open, they've they've
come from Catholic or Lutheranor Orthodox backgrounds, and
(32:10):
they don't see uh an equivalentreforming movement like GAFCON
there, and uh so they arehunting out.
So I've had connections withpeople in Poland and in France
and elsewhere who have foundtheir way, they've read
themselves in, they've looked atthe Jerusalem Declaration, they
like what they see, and theywant to be part of us.
SPEAKER_05 (32:30):
What are you particularly hoping will come
out of these next 72 hours,particularly as it relates to
your patch?
SPEAKER_04 (32:36):
Well, I think some clarity, it would be wonderful
to have a reaffirmed commitmentum by the GAC movement, if
that's what we're gonna do.
No, no, no, no.
We're an anti-ancronym program.
SPEAKER_05 (32:46):
You can't call it a GAC.
SPEAKER_04 (32:48):
Let's call it global anglicanism.
Yeah.
Global Anglicans, all right.
Um, if that uh gets continued ummomentum from this week, uh then
we would love to see greaterclarity, um, recognition of us
as a legitimate um uh Anglicanexpression of orthodoxy, and uh
the wonderful partnership thatwe've are already beginning to
(33:10):
develop with um provinces aroundthe world.
So clarity would be reallyhelpful for us.
SPEAKER_05 (33:16):
Andy Lyons, thanks very much for talking to us.
Andy Lyons, the presiding bishopof the Anglican Network in
Europe.
Although, about to change yourname too?
Uh the Anglican Church ofEurope.
Uh the network means nothing tomost people.
To Anglican Church of Europe.
My name's Dominic Steele.
We're coming to you live fromAbuja.
We're brought to you by AnglicanAid.
This is the Pastor's Heart, afull special later today.
(33:37):
That is Andy Lyons from theUnited Kingdom, and well, that's
day one of our coverage of theBig GAFCON conference here in
Abuja, Nigeria, for the Pastor'sHeart, brought to you by
AnglicanAid.org.
My name's Dominic Steele, andwe'll look forward to your
company tomorrow when we bringyou all the action from day two.
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