March 5, 2026 • 24 mins
In his first interview after being elected chair of the new Global Anglican Council, Archbishop of Rwanda Laurent Mbanda has outlined how leadership will work in the emerging Global Anglican Communion
The GAFCON Primates have dissolved the GAFCON Primates Council — the body that has guided the movement since 2008 — and in its place established a new Global Anglican Council to help lead what is the emerging Global Anglican Communion.
The Primates have chosen to broaden authority. The new council will include primates alongside bishops, clergy, and lay leaders, all with full voting privileges.
The structure signals a shift toward a more conciliar model of leadership, reflecting the conviction that the existing Instruments of Communion no longer adequately serve the majority of Anglicans worldwide.
Rwandan Primate, Archbishop Laurent Mbunda has been elected to chair the Council, until the Athens Conference in 2028.
In this Pastor’s Heart special from Abuja, Dominic Steele speaks with:
* The newly elected chairman of the Global Anglican Council, Rwanda’s Archbishop Laurent Mbanda,
* Archbishop of Sydney Kanishka Raffel,
* Former Archbishop of North America and Former Chair of Gafcon, Bishop Foley Beach,
* John Dunnett from the Church of England Evangelical Council.
Mbunda, Raffel and Beach discuss the reasoning behind the new structures, what they mean for Anglican leadership globally, and how this moment emerged from nearly two decades of GAFCON’s development.
We expore why the Primates have chosen to share authority more widely, how the new council will function, and what the leaders involved hope it will mean for the future of Anglican mission, doctrine, and fellowship across the world.
Plus The launch of the New Global Anglican Communion Fund with Anglican AID CEO Tim Swan.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
I studied diploma in theology atBundar Bible College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04 (00:20):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit Anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_05 (00:50):
The new Global Anglican Communion is moving
forward.
New leadership has beenannounced.
Archbishop Laurent Umbanda,Primate of Rwanda, will chair
the council of the new AnglicanCommunion.
He's with us now, and what anexciting moment in the main
auditorium just a few minutesago.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
It was and it is indeed.
We have always said the futurehas arrived.
Now the future is behind us.
We are moving forward.
SPEAKER_05 (01:19):
It's very exciting.
When I think back to thatMartyrs Day moment uh late last
year, and you released thatstatement, then we had a
conversation the next day, andyou announced this conference,
and then really we've seen anextraordinary ground-up mood of
ratification of thatannouncement these last 24-48
hours.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Yes.
It has been a wonderful, abeautiful journey from that day
to today.
And here we are celebrating anew council, Anglican, Global
Anglican Council that involvesboth clergy, lay and climate are
(02:00):
together.
There's the new governing body,there's a new board, there's a
new council.
It is also a moment to actuallycelebrate a global Anglican
communion moving forward andstrengthening and deepening the
word of God.
(02:20):
It is an opportunity for us togo to preach the good news of
Jesus Christ.
You see, people tend to thinkmany different things.
Let me say one thing it is allabout scripture, it is all about
the Bible.
Don't look for other questionsor don't look for other issues.
(02:42):
It is about the teaching of thescripture.
You go away from it, you havelost everything.
SPEAKER_05 (02:49):
That was one of the lovely lines from yesterday that
uh the global Anglican Communionis not going to be about
geography but theology.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
It is going to be about biblical theology.
It's going to be about thescripture, it's going to be the
teachings of the scripture,which we won't depart from.
SPEAKER_05 (03:06):
Now let's just think about this uh change in
leadership from a primatescouncil to a global Anglican
Communion Council.
Uh, as Paul Donison said on theplatform a moment ago, it's
actually the primates givingaway or sharing leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Um I I wouldn't even say it's giving away, I would
say it is sharing leadershipwith the lay, with the clergy,
is a conciliar structure.
So while many people like tohoard on power, while many
people want to hoard, we want toshare.
So it's sharing the theleadership with those who are on
(03:44):
the council.
Previously, we had the primates,we had the advisors, we had the
guarantors, that has cometogether and formed this whole
new council.
SPEAKER_05 (03:55):
And um in the past, there was uh there's been this
term primus interparis or firstamong equals of the primates,
whereas now we're really lookingat chair of the council.
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
We are looking forward.
We are leaving the oldstructures that didn't serve us
in the past behind.
And as we leave those oldstructures behind that have not
served, that have not forceddiscipline, that have not in
fact let me say this.
I don't think the instruments ofthe Anglican community fared.
(04:28):
I think what fared is theleadership to bring discipline,
to use those instruments toserve the purpose of for which
they were created.
And so those structures that gowith all that, we leave behind
and we move forward.
And we move forward with aconciliar structure, with a
(04:49):
shared leadership, with acouncil that brings people
together to give ideas, to makedecisions.
They all have voting powers likeanybody else.
So it is not just a one-man showthat is moving forward in a
considerial structure.
SPEAKER_05 (05:11):
That is Archbishop Laurent Umbanda, the Archbishop
and Primate of Rwanda, formerchair of the GAFCON Primates
Council, and now the new chairof the Global Anglican Council
to lead the Global AnglicanCommunion.
Now, to reaction to that, andlet's go first to Kanishka
Rafel, the Archbishop of Sydney.
(05:31):
Kanishka, um, if we've got newleadership for the Global
Anglican Council, then there'sgoing to be a global Anglican
communion.
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
Uh sure, Dominic.
I mean, I think the message thatwe've been uh saying all along
is that uh we are the communion.
Uh that's been the message ofGAFCOM that um GAFCON represents
today.
There are 24 provincesrepresented at this conference,
uh, and the um primates councileffectively dissolved itself uh
to create a broader group ofleadership, which which it will
(06:04):
be called the Global AnglicanCouncil.
Um and uh that represents the uhthe next step, I think.
Um you'll remember from 2023 inKigali uh that uh there was a
repudiation of the authority ofthe Archbishop of Canterbury and
a sense that the instruments ofcommunion, so-called, uh, have
(06:26):
really failed to exercisediscipline in the life of the
global Anglican family, and thatfor that reason there was a need
for the communion to bereordered.
And so this is a way of doingit, and it's the next step.
It represents um uh the majorityworld, Anglicans really, uh
taking responsibility for thisphrase I like, the stewardship
(06:50):
of the communion and the gospelin the communion.
SPEAKER_05 (06:53):
And um, I really did like that idea of primates
sharing the leadership withbishops, clergy, layer
laypeople, yeah, and really anew model of leadership for a
new era.
SPEAKER_03 (07:04):
Yeah, I think so.
I I mean what we've found isthat the older structures uh
have been um ineffective.
And actually the Anglican way ofdoing things is uh uh clergy and
people together with bishops,and so the new council that's
been established reflects thatin a way that's I think very
wonderful.
SPEAKER_05 (07:22):
Uh what happens now?
There's this there's still workon this big statement, because I
mean, I guess you like me were alittle surprised that this
announcement was made todayrather than as part of the big
statement tomorrow.
SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
Sure.
Well, I think um there is a kindof dynamic uh process taking
place, as is characteristic ofthe GAFGON conferences, that
there is uh um feedback comingin and uh drafts being
circulated, and as you'll know,um that process has been
upgraded technologically soliterally everybody who's got
the app on their phone cancomment on every paragraph of a
(07:55):
draft statement.
So something that's right.
So the statement will come outtomorrow.
Um, but the uh Primates Councilhas been meeting through the
week and had taken the decisionum that it would uh in, as I
say, in a sense, dissolve itselfand reconstitute uh as a council
of leadership uh with a broadermembership.
And that reflects um the uh factthat we share this stewardship,
(08:18):
actually, that the stewardshipof the gospel in the life of the
Anglican church across the globeisn't something that somehow
belongs to a single person uh oreven to uh the order of bishops.
But actually the gospel belongsto us all.
And so this leadership councilreflects that commitment uh of
(08:39):
uh every part of the church, asit were, to uh uh under the Lord
to take responsibility for that.
SPEAKER_05 (08:47):
That is Kanishka Raffel, the uh Archbishop of
Sydney, and continuing to getreaction to this announcement of
the Global Anglican Communion.
And uh, we're gonna go to theformer chair of the GAFCO
Movement, the Archbishop of theAnglican Church of North
America, Foley Beach.
I'm with Foley Beach, formerchair of the GAFCO Movement and
(09:08):
uh former Archbishop of theAnglican Church of North
America, and uh but just downlike me as a regular delegate
today.
SPEAKER_02 (09:15):
Well, it's good to see you.
Good to be with you, Dominique.
Uh yes, I'm now back serving asthe Bishop of our diocese, and
that is keeping me very, verybusy and loving it.
Uh ministering to clergy,planting churches, and leading
people to Jesus.
SPEAKER_05 (09:27):
Yes.
Now tell us, um, what's yourreaction to the big
announcements?
Um, because I mean, we werewatching you and Ben Kwashi lead
the GAFCON movement right up to2023, and we were just on the
verge, I thought, of having thiskind of announcement uh three
years ago.
But how exciting to get theretoday.
SPEAKER_02 (09:46):
Well, it's I think it's been a long time coming.
I remember I haven't shared thisactually with, I don't think
publicly at all, but when I wasthe the chairman, I I was in
prayer one day and I had this uhI don't know how to describe it,
just a vision.
And um, it was an old wineskin.
It's this brown, ugly lookingthing, and it all of a sudden
started puffing up and thenstarted cracking.
(10:07):
And next thing you know, allthis beautiful wine is is
pouring through it.
And to me, that was symbolic ofthe colonial structures of the
Anglican communion, that God wasdoing this, has been doing this
incredible thing in the Anglicancommunion, but the structures
are still for a colonial age,and something had to happen.
And so um I think the evolutionof this process is this is where
(10:30):
we are today in the culture.
It needed to change.
Uh we're no longer colonies.
Um, the center of the Anglicancommunion is is no longer in the
UK.
Uh the leadership uh thinks theyare, um, but it's it's the rest
of the world.
SPEAKER_05 (10:44):
I mean, you come here to Nigeria and it is so
blindingly obvious, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (10:48):
Yeah, it's incredible.
Uh not only their hospitality,the the sheer numbers, the
enthusiasm, the love of thegospel, the emphasis.
That's been one of the greatthings about this week is the
emphasis on the Bible andteaching the Bible and focusing
on the Lord and yourrelationship with the Lord.
That's what it's all about,right?
SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
Absolutely.
I walked into the FOIA.
We we're just standing at thevery front entrance of the uh
Church of Nigeria headquarters.
I just walked into the FOIAthere.
There's a sign saying we're achurch that's on about Jesus,
we're on about preaching Christ,we're on about the Holy Spirit's
work, and you think, well,that's a church I want to join.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Exactly.
That's what it's all about.
And and sadly, the theleadership in the Anglican
communion has lost its way, andthat the the instruments are no
longer functioning in a way thatthat serves the gospel and
serves the people of God.
Uh sadly, um, you know, it wasan innovation at the time.
They thought it would work, andmaybe it did for a period of
time, but it no they no longerwork.
SPEAKER_05 (11:41):
And uh, what's been exciting for you about the last
couple of days is you've um metall sorts of people and been in
the different buzz groups andparticipated in the conference?
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
I think for me, first of all, reconnecting with
uh with a lot of folks becauseno longer being the primate or
the archbishop, I'm not in themeeting seeing folks.
Uh, but but also hearing whatGod is doing in their lives and
in their provinces and how umeven in the midst of so much
struggle, uh the gospel is goingforth, people's lives are being
changed.
I've had a couple of people comeup and thank me uh for things I
(12:12):
did that I don't even rememberdoing, and uh how God used it to
change their life.
I mean, that's what it's allabout, being centered in Christ.
SPEAKER_05 (12:20):
And that is Folly Beach, the former Archbishop of
the Anglican Church of NorthAmerica and also former chair of
the CAFCON Primates Council.
Now, to the United Kingdom, anda few hours ago, I spoke with
John Dunnett of the Church ofEngland Evangelical Council here
in Abuja.
John, as you've been processinguh what's been said over the
(12:41):
last 24 hours and what we'rehearing uh in in the discussions
around the place, but also fromthe platform, there's a need for
clarity because there's someconfusion about what's coming
out of here.
SPEAKER_06 (12:53):
That's right, Dominic, there is.
And um, some of the confusion isaround whether what's been
proposed is a breakaway or a newcommunion.
And of course, we've heardseveral times here that this is
not a breakaway, it's not a newcommunion, it is a reordering of
the Anglican communion.
And I think in England, peopleare not all hearing that perhaps
(13:13):
as clearly as they should.
SPEAKER_05 (13:14):
One of the lines that I felt landed quite
strongly with delegatesyesterday is we want a communion
uh ordered around theologyrather than geography.
And uh, I mean, that may be alittle hard for the English to
hear, but or for some of theEnglish to hear, but did you
want to just reflect on that?
SPEAKER_06 (13:31):
Let's put it this way we live in a post-colonial
world, and um what we are asAnglicans really needs to
reflect that reality.
And um, you know, standing herein Abuja and worshiping with
people from every nation, everytongue, um, there is a real
sense of, yeah, this is the theAnglican community is a global
(13:52):
church.
It's not an English export,which of course it was um
originally.
Um the communion is a differentanimal now, and I think um what
we need to reflect that um inthe way that the communion is
led, in the way that weunderstand um relationships
across provinces.
It is a different world now.
SPEAKER_05 (14:12):
I mean, and actually, for you coming from
the UK and me coming fromAustralia, from Australia, it it
it is actually extraordinarilyeye-opening to see what's going
on, particularly here in theChurch of Nigeria.
SPEAKER_06 (14:25):
It's certainly true that with what is it, 20, 25
million Anglicans um in Nigeria,there is um which is more than
there are people in Australia.
Indeed.
And there is an irony that umthe Church of England and in
particular the See of Canterburystill has a role that in a
(14:45):
post-colonial world doesn'trecognise those demographic um
realities.
And again, if you think of whatwe hear about the church in
Nigeria, um uh church plantinguh and growing, and then you
look at the you know, sometimessomewhat depressing figures in
England, that the Church ofEngland, despite the best spin,
is not actually um seeinganything like a parallel.
(15:07):
Um and these guys and the theorganizational structure they're
they're leading, they deserverespect.
I think that's right.
I mean, I I don't know if youyou noticed, but there was a
paper out yesterday, a kind ofan addendum by ISCAFO, um, in
which it was suggested that aprevious idea of um the kind of
(15:29):
the Canterbury role being passedaround primates, it appears that
that's been kind of backpedaleda bit, such that now it's gonna
be, or the or the currentproposal, if I've read
yesterday's paperwork correctly,is that Canterbury might draw
around um uh uh um primates fromelsewhere rather than the baton
(15:52):
be passed around.
Which again it just struck me asprofoundly tone-deaf.
It it it is tone-deaf.
I I think it's also indicativeof what what we you know the the
conversation around um what doesAnglicanism look like in a
post-colonial world.
We we really ought to be uh ummore positively embracing the
(16:14):
leadership of primates ofchurches around the world that
are just growing so rapidly andseeing such you know wonderful
gospel witness and and activity.
SPEAKER_05 (16:24):
And we in the West have to come to terms with the
idea that the future really isin Africa at the moment.
SPEAKER_06 (16:31):
I think it's very difficult for um Western white
people like myself um to um tohave the to have the grace um to
be able to say, yeah, it we nolonger, you know, we we're no
longer the the key players inthis.
We have to have a hu a certainhumility that says what God is
(16:54):
doing in his church in places Imean here we are in Nigeria like
Nigeria um is is profoundlyimpressive.
SPEAKER_05 (17:04):
And one of the things that struck me is how
hurt that the Africans have feltfor so long so deeply by the um
by the patronizing tone they'vegot from um Christian, so-called
Christian brothers and sistersum uh in leadership in the West.
SPEAKER_06 (17:26):
There is there is a I think there is a
patronization.
One of the particular ways thatshows itself is in the comments
that are made about the theologyof the African and other
churches.
And there is sometimes thissubtext which is oh, when when
they grow up a bit, when theybecome a bit more mature,
they'll understand what we, theenlightened West, now
(17:49):
understand.
And um, you know, you you cometo somewhere like Nigeria or I
was in Kigali for for the GAFCONmeeting there, and you you know,
the the confidence that peoplehave in scripture, yeah, the
willingness there is to submitto scripture, uh in costly ways.
In costly ways.
I mean, we know the you know,there are African countries
(18:11):
where um to be a bishop or aChristian leader is a risky
thing, uh, and yet they'rethey're willing to say, well,
this is what the Bible says, sothis is how it is.
So I've spoken to um primatesand bishops um at this and at
previous GAFCON, um, and also atthe Global South Fellowship of
Anglican meetings, where youhear their testimony and you
(18:32):
realize that um it has cost themliterally, in some cases, it's
an issue of life and death.
Um, very humbling to us in theWest who have, you know, to be
honest, a pretty comfortableexistence.
SPEAKER_05 (18:44):
That is the uh Church of England Evangelical
Councils John Dunnett.
And uh now one of the otherannouncements to come out of
here over the last 24 hours hasbeen the announcement of a
global Anglican Communion Fundto assist those dioceses that
are particularly struggling.
And uh that has been organizedby Anglican AIDS CEO Tim Swann,
(19:05):
and he is with us now.
Just before we get into some ofthe great things that are going
on with this global AnglicanCommunion Fund we want to talk
to you about, what's yourpastor's heart on the conference
so far?
SPEAKER_04 (19:16):
Um Dominic, I'm just so encouraged.
I just, I just my my heart isexploding with um with joy,
really, because I was I wasreading about Cranmer before I
came and thinking of thereformers, you know, we had the
the the Martyr's Day statementcame out about from the re
reformers Hugh Latimer and uhand uh and Ridley.
And when Latimer uh was burnt atthe stake for his uh work in
(19:41):
reforming the church in England,he said uh play play play the
man because we shall light sucha flame in England this day as
it will not be put out never beput out.
And I just feel like here inthis room we have more than 300
bishops, I think 475 delegatesfrom around the Anglican
Communion, lighting a flame.
(20:03):
Lighting the flame, the flamekindling the flame, the flame is
burning, and we have all thesepeople working for the
reformation and therestructuring and the uh
renewing of the Anglicancommunion.
So I just think Cranma would bethrilled, Latimer Ridley would
be thrilled about what ishappening here, that now there
is a communion that just isn'tin England, but it's right
(20:25):
across the world.
And so, Dominic, I'm just reallythrilled to be here and see what
God is doing through this groupand for the world.
SPEAKER_05 (20:34):
Now that's what's going on in the main platform
and flow of the conference.
But aside from that, you've gota whole different thing going on
in that you're catching up witha zillion different people that
you're supporting.
I want to come back to some ofthose relationships in a moment.
But yesterday I saw you on themain platform announcing the
Global Anglican Communion Fund.
(20:56):
Can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_04 (20:57):
Yeah.
For many of the bishops thatthat are in the global Anglican
Communion, particularly in thepoorer diocese, and I'm thinking
places like Burundi, Madagascar.
SPEAKER_05 (21:07):
We just spoke to Kampeach from northern Kenya.
And uh and he really is dealingin a in a very um low
socioeconomic uh band.
SPEAKER_04 (21:17):
So these are dioceses where they struggle to
be able to train their clergy inthe Bible, and GAFCON has said
we want to keep the Bible at thecenter.
And GAFCON has said we want toproclaim Christ faithfully to
the nations, but for manydioceses, they are struggling to
be able to train their people toproclaim Christ faithfully.
They need support fromelsewhere, they're looking for
(21:37):
funds to be able to do this, andsadly, many of them need to uh
are looking for funds from whatwe might say compromised
sources, like and those ones,Trinity Wall Street and those
kind of ones, which areproviding lots of money, but
strings attached theologically,and strings attached
theologically, and if if youjoin GAFCON, it will be no more
(21:58):
funding coming your way.
SPEAKER_05 (22:00):
And so those of us from wealthier places have to
help fund some of these poorerareas.
SPEAKER_04 (22:06):
Well that's that's the idea.
We've set up the global ang theGlobal Anglican Communion Fund
to be able to uh have amechanism through which we can
raise funds uh from any countryin the world.
You can make a donation and givea tax, get a tax receipt from
any country, um, put it intothis fund so that we'll be able
to support ministry in thepoorest diocese to go forward,
(22:28):
so those bishops um can havetheir ministry funded and also
feel like they don't have tosell their soul and leave their
theology at the door when theyapply for funds from Trinity
Wall Street and other places.
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (22:40):
And what's the reaction been as that
announcement was made as you'vetalked to people?
I'm imagining people thinkingthis is great.
SPEAKER_04 (22:49):
I've I have spoken to quite a few Americans, for
example, who are really keen onthis idea.
They've been saying, yes, thisis what is needed.
We definitely need to get behindour uh you know brothers and
sisters in in poorer nations.
We need to back them not justwith words, but with the the the
financial ability to be able tosend uh take ministry forward.
(23:12):
Um and so there has been a goodreaction.
I mean, this is going to be uhuh something which we'll have to
build up in time, and it's aboutbuilding relationships and uh
building trust.
SPEAKER_05 (23:20):
But if we're doing this global Anglican communion,
then obviously this is astrategy that we need to take on
course.
SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
It's a strategy, and actually, um some may remember
that Anglican aid was originallyset up by the former Archbishop
of Sydney, uh Peter Jensen, whowas also the former GAFCON uh
general secretary.
And so it's been set up inSydney already.
We're in partnership with 120different uh of the poorest
(23:47):
dioceses around the world.
So we've got runs on the board,so to speak.
And this is to say, okay, we'vebeen doing this already from
Sydney.
We need to do this as a group.
If we're serious about seeingthe gospel proclaimed right
around the world, we need to, asa group, band together, fund the
ministry, uh, and see Christproclaimed faithfully to the
(24:08):
nations.
SPEAKER_05 (24:09):
And that wraps up this edition of the Pastor's
Heart from Abuja, Nigeria.
Uh, this is Dominic Steele.
We're brought to you by AnglicanAid.
We'll be back tomorrow to lookat the final statement coming
out of this conference and allthe reaction to that.
We'll look forward to seeing youthen.
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
I studied diploma in theology atBundar Bible College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_04 (00:20):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit Anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_05 (00:50):
The new Global Anglican Communion is moving
forward.
New leadership has beenannounced.
Archbishop Laurent Umbanda,Primate of Rwanda, will chair
the council of the new AnglicanCommunion.
He's with us now, and what anexciting moment in the main
auditorium just a few minutesago.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
It was and it is indeed.
We have always said the futurehas arrived.
Now the future is behind us.
We are moving forward.
SPEAKER_05 (01:19):
It's very exciting.
When I think back to thatMartyrs Day moment uh late last
year, and you released thatstatement, then we had a
conversation the next day, andyou announced this conference,
and then really we've seen anextraordinary ground-up mood of
ratification of thatannouncement these last 24-48
hours.
SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
Yes.
It has been a wonderful, abeautiful journey from that day
to today.
And here we are celebrating anew council, Anglican, Global
Anglican Council that involvesboth clergy, lay and climate are
(02:00):
together.
There's the new governing body,there's a new board, there's a
new council.
It is also a moment to actuallycelebrate a global Anglican
communion moving forward andstrengthening and deepening the
word of God.
(02:20):
It is an opportunity for us togo to preach the good news of
Jesus Christ.
You see, people tend to thinkmany different things.
Let me say one thing it is allabout scripture, it is all about
the Bible.
Don't look for other questionsor don't look for other issues.
(02:42):
It is about the teaching of thescripture.
You go away from it, you havelost everything.
SPEAKER_05 (02:49):
That was one of the lovely lines from yesterday that
uh the global Anglican Communionis not going to be about
geography but theology.
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
It is going to be about biblical theology.
It's going to be about thescripture, it's going to be the
teachings of the scripture,which we won't depart from.
SPEAKER_05 (03:06):
Now let's just think about this uh change in
leadership from a primatescouncil to a global Anglican
Communion Council.
Uh, as Paul Donison said on theplatform a moment ago, it's
actually the primates givingaway or sharing leadership.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Um I I wouldn't even say it's giving away, I would
say it is sharing leadershipwith the lay, with the clergy,
is a conciliar structure.
So while many people like tohoard on power, while many
people want to hoard, we want toshare.
So it's sharing the theleadership with those who are on
(03:44):
the council.
Previously, we had the primates,we had the advisors, we had the
guarantors, that has cometogether and formed this whole
new council.
SPEAKER_05 (03:55):
And um in the past, there was uh there's been this
term primus interparis or firstamong equals of the primates,
whereas now we're really lookingat chair of the council.
SPEAKER_01 (04:05):
We are looking forward.
We are leaving the oldstructures that didn't serve us
in the past behind.
And as we leave those oldstructures behind that have not
served, that have not forceddiscipline, that have not in
fact let me say this.
I don't think the instruments ofthe Anglican community fared.
(04:28):
I think what fared is theleadership to bring discipline,
to use those instruments toserve the purpose of for which
they were created.
And so those structures that gowith all that, we leave behind
and we move forward.
And we move forward with aconciliar structure, with a
(04:49):
shared leadership, with acouncil that brings people
together to give ideas, to makedecisions.
They all have voting powers likeanybody else.
So it is not just a one-man showthat is moving forward in a
considerial structure.
SPEAKER_05 (05:11):
That is Archbishop Laurent Umbanda, the Archbishop
and Primate of Rwanda, formerchair of the GAFCON Primates
Council, and now the new chairof the Global Anglican Council
to lead the Global AnglicanCommunion.
Now, to reaction to that, andlet's go first to Kanishka
Rafel, the Archbishop of Sydney.
(05:31):
Kanishka, um, if we've got newleadership for the Global
Anglican Council, then there'sgoing to be a global Anglican
communion.
SPEAKER_03 (05:40):
Uh sure, Dominic.
I mean, I think the message thatwe've been uh saying all along
is that uh we are the communion.
Uh that's been the message ofGAFCOM that um GAFCON represents
today.
There are 24 provincesrepresented at this conference,
uh, and the um primates councileffectively dissolved itself uh
to create a broader group ofleadership, which which it will
(06:04):
be called the Global AnglicanCouncil.
Um and uh that represents the uhthe next step, I think.
Um you'll remember from 2023 inKigali uh that uh there was a
repudiation of the authority ofthe Archbishop of Canterbury and
a sense that the instruments ofcommunion, so-called, uh, have
(06:26):
really failed to exercisediscipline in the life of the
global Anglican family, and thatfor that reason there was a need
for the communion to bereordered.
And so this is a way of doingit, and it's the next step.
It represents um uh the majorityworld, Anglicans really, uh
taking responsibility for thisphrase I like, the stewardship
(06:50):
of the communion and the gospelin the communion.
SPEAKER_05 (06:53):
And um, I really did like that idea of primates
sharing the leadership withbishops, clergy, layer
laypeople, yeah, and really anew model of leadership for a
new era.
SPEAKER_03 (07:04):
Yeah, I think so.
I I mean what we've found isthat the older structures uh
have been um ineffective.
And actually the Anglican way ofdoing things is uh uh clergy and
people together with bishops,and so the new council that's
been established reflects thatin a way that's I think very
wonderful.
SPEAKER_05 (07:22):
Uh what happens now?
There's this there's still workon this big statement, because I
mean, I guess you like me were alittle surprised that this
announcement was made todayrather than as part of the big
statement tomorrow.
SPEAKER_03 (07:33):
Sure.
Well, I think um there is a kindof dynamic uh process taking
place, as is characteristic ofthe GAFGON conferences, that
there is uh um feedback comingin and uh drafts being
circulated, and as you'll know,um that process has been
upgraded technologically soliterally everybody who's got
the app on their phone cancomment on every paragraph of a
(07:55):
draft statement.
So something that's right.
So the statement will come outtomorrow.
Um, but the uh Primates Councilhas been meeting through the
week and had taken the decisionum that it would uh in, as I
say, in a sense, dissolve itselfand reconstitute uh as a council
of leadership uh with a broadermembership.
And that reflects um the uh factthat we share this stewardship,
(08:18):
actually, that the stewardshipof the gospel in the life of the
Anglican church across the globeisn't something that somehow
belongs to a single person uh oreven to uh the order of bishops.
But actually the gospel belongsto us all.
And so this leadership councilreflects that commitment uh of
(08:39):
uh every part of the church, asit were, to uh uh under the Lord
to take responsibility for that.
SPEAKER_05 (08:47):
That is Kanishka Raffel, the uh Archbishop of
Sydney, and continuing to getreaction to this announcement of
the Global Anglican Communion.
And uh, we're gonna go to theformer chair of the GAFCO
Movement, the Archbishop of theAnglican Church of North
America, Foley Beach.
I'm with Foley Beach, formerchair of the GAFCO Movement and
(09:08):
uh former Archbishop of theAnglican Church of North
America, and uh but just downlike me as a regular delegate
today.
SPEAKER_02 (09:15):
Well, it's good to see you.
Good to be with you, Dominique.
Uh yes, I'm now back serving asthe Bishop of our diocese, and
that is keeping me very, verybusy and loving it.
Uh ministering to clergy,planting churches, and leading
people to Jesus.
SPEAKER_05 (09:27):
Yes.
Now tell us, um, what's yourreaction to the big
announcements?
Um, because I mean, we werewatching you and Ben Kwashi lead
the GAFCON movement right up to2023, and we were just on the
verge, I thought, of having thiskind of announcement uh three
years ago.
But how exciting to get theretoday.
SPEAKER_02 (09:46):
Well, it's I think it's been a long time coming.
I remember I haven't shared thisactually with, I don't think
publicly at all, but when I wasthe the chairman, I I was in
prayer one day and I had this uhI don't know how to describe it,
just a vision.
And um, it was an old wineskin.
It's this brown, ugly lookingthing, and it all of a sudden
started puffing up and thenstarted cracking.
(10:07):
And next thing you know, allthis beautiful wine is is
pouring through it.
And to me, that was symbolic ofthe colonial structures of the
Anglican communion, that God wasdoing this, has been doing this
incredible thing in the Anglicancommunion, but the structures
are still for a colonial age,and something had to happen.
And so um I think the evolutionof this process is this is where
(10:30):
we are today in the culture.
It needed to change.
Uh we're no longer colonies.
Um, the center of the Anglicancommunion is is no longer in the
UK.
Uh the leadership uh thinks theyare, um, but it's it's the rest
of the world.
SPEAKER_05 (10:44):
I mean, you come here to Nigeria and it is so
blindingly obvious, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (10:48):
Yeah, it's incredible.
Uh not only their hospitality,the the sheer numbers, the
enthusiasm, the love of thegospel, the emphasis.
That's been one of the greatthings about this week is the
emphasis on the Bible andteaching the Bible and focusing
on the Lord and yourrelationship with the Lord.
That's what it's all about,right?
SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
Absolutely.
I walked into the FOIA.
We we're just standing at thevery front entrance of the uh
Church of Nigeria headquarters.
I just walked into the FOIAthere.
There's a sign saying we're achurch that's on about Jesus,
we're on about preaching Christ,we're on about the Holy Spirit's
work, and you think, well,that's a church I want to join.
SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Exactly.
That's what it's all about.
And and sadly, the theleadership in the Anglican
communion has lost its way, andthat the the instruments are no
longer functioning in a way thatthat serves the gospel and
serves the people of God.
Uh sadly, um, you know, it wasan innovation at the time.
They thought it would work, andmaybe it did for a period of
time, but it no they no longerwork.
SPEAKER_05 (11:41):
And uh, what's been exciting for you about the last
couple of days is you've um metall sorts of people and been in
the different buzz groups andparticipated in the conference?
SPEAKER_02 (11:50):
I think for me, first of all, reconnecting with
uh with a lot of folks becauseno longer being the primate or
the archbishop, I'm not in themeeting seeing folks.
Uh, but but also hearing whatGod is doing in their lives and
in their provinces and how umeven in the midst of so much
struggle, uh the gospel is goingforth, people's lives are being
changed.
I've had a couple of people comeup and thank me uh for things I
(12:12):
did that I don't even rememberdoing, and uh how God used it to
change their life.
I mean, that's what it's allabout, being centered in Christ.
SPEAKER_05 (12:20):
And that is Folly Beach, the former Archbishop of
the Anglican Church of NorthAmerica and also former chair of
the CAFCON Primates Council.
Now, to the United Kingdom, anda few hours ago, I spoke with
John Dunnett of the Church ofEngland Evangelical Council here
in Abuja.
John, as you've been processinguh what's been said over the
(12:41):
last 24 hours and what we'rehearing uh in in the discussions
around the place, but also fromthe platform, there's a need for
clarity because there's someconfusion about what's coming
out of here.
SPEAKER_06 (12:53):
That's right, Dominic, there is.
And um, some of the confusion isaround whether what's been
proposed is a breakaway or a newcommunion.
And of course, we've heardseveral times here that this is
not a breakaway, it's not a newcommunion, it is a reordering of
the Anglican communion.
And I think in England, peopleare not all hearing that perhaps
(13:13):
as clearly as they should.
SPEAKER_05 (13:14):
One of the lines that I felt landed quite
strongly with delegatesyesterday is we want a communion
uh ordered around theologyrather than geography.
And uh, I mean, that may be alittle hard for the English to
hear, but or for some of theEnglish to hear, but did you
want to just reflect on that?
SPEAKER_06 (13:31):
Let's put it this way we live in a post-colonial
world, and um what we are asAnglicans really needs to
reflect that reality.
And um, you know, standing herein Abuja and worshiping with
people from every nation, everytongue, um, there is a real
sense of, yeah, this is the theAnglican community is a global
(13:52):
church.
It's not an English export,which of course it was um
originally.
Um the communion is a differentanimal now, and I think um what
we need to reflect that um inthe way that the communion is
led, in the way that weunderstand um relationships
across provinces.
It is a different world now.
SPEAKER_05 (14:12):
I mean, and actually, for you coming from
the UK and me coming fromAustralia, from Australia, it it
it is actually extraordinarilyeye-opening to see what's going
on, particularly here in theChurch of Nigeria.
SPEAKER_06 (14:25):
It's certainly true that with what is it, 20, 25
million Anglicans um in Nigeria,there is um which is more than
there are people in Australia.
Indeed.
And there is an irony that umthe Church of England and in
particular the See of Canterburystill has a role that in a
(14:45):
post-colonial world doesn'trecognise those demographic um
realities.
And again, if you think of whatwe hear about the church in
Nigeria, um uh church plantinguh and growing, and then you
look at the you know, sometimessomewhat depressing figures in
England, that the Church ofEngland, despite the best spin,
is not actually um seeinganything like a parallel.
(15:07):
Um and these guys and the theorganizational structure they're
they're leading, they deserverespect.
I think that's right.
I mean, I I don't know if youyou noticed, but there was a
paper out yesterday, a kind ofan addendum by ISCAFO, um, in
which it was suggested that aprevious idea of um the kind of
(15:29):
the Canterbury role being passedaround primates, it appears that
that's been kind of backpedaleda bit, such that now it's gonna
be, or the or the currentproposal, if I've read
yesterday's paperwork correctly,is that Canterbury might draw
around um uh uh um primates fromelsewhere rather than the baton
(15:52):
be passed around.
Which again it just struck me asprofoundly tone-deaf.
It it it is tone-deaf.
I I think it's also indicativeof what what we you know the the
conversation around um what doesAnglicanism look like in a
post-colonial world.
We we really ought to be uh ummore positively embracing the
(16:14):
leadership of primates ofchurches around the world that
are just growing so rapidly andseeing such you know wonderful
gospel witness and and activity.
SPEAKER_05 (16:24):
And we in the West have to come to terms with the
idea that the future really isin Africa at the moment.
SPEAKER_06 (16:31):
I think it's very difficult for um Western white
people like myself um to um tohave the to have the grace um to
be able to say, yeah, it we nolonger, you know, we we're no
longer the the key players inthis.
We have to have a hu a certainhumility that says what God is
(16:54):
doing in his church in places Imean here we are in Nigeria like
Nigeria um is is profoundlyimpressive.
SPEAKER_05 (17:04):
And one of the things that struck me is how
hurt that the Africans have feltfor so long so deeply by the um
by the patronizing tone they'vegot from um Christian, so-called
Christian brothers and sistersum uh in leadership in the West.
SPEAKER_06 (17:26):
There is there is a I think there is a
patronization.
One of the particular ways thatshows itself is in the comments
that are made about the theologyof the African and other
churches.
And there is sometimes thissubtext which is oh, when when
they grow up a bit, when theybecome a bit more mature,
they'll understand what we, theenlightened West, now
(17:49):
understand.
And um, you know, you you cometo somewhere like Nigeria or I
was in Kigali for for the GAFCONmeeting there, and you you know,
the the confidence that peoplehave in scripture, yeah, the
willingness there is to submitto scripture, uh in costly ways.
In costly ways.
I mean, we know the you know,there are African countries
(18:11):
where um to be a bishop or aChristian leader is a risky
thing, uh, and yet they'rethey're willing to say, well,
this is what the Bible says, sothis is how it is.
So I've spoken to um primatesand bishops um at this and at
previous GAFCON, um, and also atthe Global South Fellowship of
Anglican meetings, where youhear their testimony and you
(18:32):
realize that um it has cost themliterally, in some cases, it's
an issue of life and death.
Um, very humbling to us in theWest who have, you know, to be
honest, a pretty comfortableexistence.
SPEAKER_05 (18:44):
That is the uh Church of England Evangelical
Councils John Dunnett.
And uh now one of the otherannouncements to come out of
here over the last 24 hours hasbeen the announcement of a
global Anglican Communion Fundto assist those dioceses that
are particularly struggling.
And uh that has been organizedby Anglican AIDS CEO Tim Swann,
(19:05):
and he is with us now.
Just before we get into some ofthe great things that are going
on with this global AnglicanCommunion Fund we want to talk
to you about, what's yourpastor's heart on the conference
so far?
SPEAKER_04 (19:16):
Um Dominic, I'm just so encouraged.
I just, I just my my heart isexploding with um with joy,
really, because I was I wasreading about Cranmer before I
came and thinking of thereformers, you know, we had the
the the Martyr's Day statementcame out about from the re
reformers Hugh Latimer and uhand uh and Ridley.
And when Latimer uh was burnt atthe stake for his uh work in
(19:41):
reforming the church in England,he said uh play play play the
man because we shall light sucha flame in England this day as
it will not be put out never beput out.
And I just feel like here inthis room we have more than 300
bishops, I think 475 delegatesfrom around the Anglican
Communion, lighting a flame.
(20:03):
Lighting the flame, the flamekindling the flame, the flame is
burning, and we have all thesepeople working for the
reformation and therestructuring and the uh
renewing of the Anglicancommunion.
So I just think Cranma would bethrilled, Latimer Ridley would
be thrilled about what ishappening here, that now there
is a communion that just isn'tin England, but it's right
(20:25):
across the world.
And so, Dominic, I'm just reallythrilled to be here and see what
God is doing through this groupand for the world.
SPEAKER_05 (20:34):
Now that's what's going on in the main platform
and flow of the conference.
But aside from that, you've gota whole different thing going on
in that you're catching up witha zillion different people that
you're supporting.
I want to come back to some ofthose relationships in a moment.
But yesterday I saw you on themain platform announcing the
Global Anglican Communion Fund.
(20:56):
Can you talk about that?
SPEAKER_04 (20:57):
Yeah.
For many of the bishops thatthat are in the global Anglican
Communion, particularly in thepoorer diocese, and I'm thinking
places like Burundi, Madagascar.
SPEAKER_05 (21:07):
We just spoke to Kampeach from northern Kenya.
And uh and he really is dealingin a in a very um low
socioeconomic uh band.
SPEAKER_04 (21:17):
So these are dioceses where they struggle to
be able to train their clergy inthe Bible, and GAFCON has said
we want to keep the Bible at thecenter.
And GAFCON has said we want toproclaim Christ faithfully to
the nations, but for manydioceses, they are struggling to
be able to train their people toproclaim Christ faithfully.
They need support fromelsewhere, they're looking for
(21:37):
funds to be able to do this, andsadly, many of them need to uh
are looking for funds from whatwe might say compromised
sources, like and those ones,Trinity Wall Street and those
kind of ones, which areproviding lots of money, but
strings attached theologically,and strings attached
theologically, and if if youjoin GAFCON, it will be no more
(21:58):
funding coming your way.
SPEAKER_05 (22:00):
And so those of us from wealthier places have to
help fund some of these poorerareas.
SPEAKER_04 (22:06):
Well that's that's the idea.
We've set up the global ang theGlobal Anglican Communion Fund
to be able to uh have amechanism through which we can
raise funds uh from any countryin the world.
You can make a donation and givea tax, get a tax receipt from
any country, um, put it intothis fund so that we'll be able
to support ministry in thepoorest diocese to go forward,
(22:28):
so those bishops um can havetheir ministry funded and also
feel like they don't have tosell their soul and leave their
theology at the door when theyapply for funds from Trinity
Wall Street and other places.
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (22:40):
And what's the reaction been as that
announcement was made as you'vetalked to people?
I'm imagining people thinkingthis is great.
SPEAKER_04 (22:49):
I've I have spoken to quite a few Americans, for
example, who are really keen onthis idea.
They've been saying, yes, thisis what is needed.
We definitely need to get behindour uh you know brothers and
sisters in in poorer nations.
We need to back them not justwith words, but with the the the
financial ability to be able tosend uh take ministry forward.
(23:12):
Um and so there has been a goodreaction.
I mean, this is going to be uhuh something which we'll have to
build up in time, and it's aboutbuilding relationships and uh
building trust.
SPEAKER_05 (23:20):
But if we're doing this global Anglican communion,
then obviously this is astrategy that we need to take on
course.
SPEAKER_04 (23:26):
It's a strategy, and actually, um some may remember
that Anglican aid was originallyset up by the former Archbishop
of Sydney, uh Peter Jensen, whowas also the former GAFCON uh
general secretary.
And so it's been set up inSydney already.
We're in partnership with 120different uh of the poorest
(23:47):
dioceses around the world.
So we've got runs on the board,so to speak.
And this is to say, okay, we'vebeen doing this already from
Sydney.
We need to do this as a group.
If we're serious about seeingthe gospel proclaimed right
around the world, we need to, asa group, band together, fund the
ministry, uh, and see Christproclaimed faithfully to the
(24:08):
nations.
SPEAKER_05 (24:09):
And that wraps up this edition of the Pastor's
Heart from Abuja, Nigeria.
Uh, this is Dominic Steele.
We're brought to you by AnglicanAid.
We'll be back tomorrow to lookat the final statement coming
out of this conference and allthe reaction to that.
We'll look forward to seeing youthen.
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