February 23, 2026 • 35 mins
For many of us, Easter is the highest attention moment of the year. But how do we turn that attention into genuine Gospel impact? How do we help people attend in the first place, how do we move from visitor to believer, and how do we run follow up that actually happens?
How to engage the neighbourhood, welcome deliberately, lead hearts to love Jesus in the gathering and preaching, and leading well into followup courses.
We cover what to prioritise, what not to do, whether evening events are worth it, how to serve families well, and simple next steps that help guests come back.
Featuring three Sydney mission pastors: Brayden Lucas (Christ Church Gladesville), Peter Blake (St Stephen’s Normanhurst) and Pip Witheridge (St Paul’s Carlingford).
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SPEAKER_01 (00:09):
Easter evangelism that actually works.
How not to waste Easter thisyear.
It is The Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele and BradenLucas, Peter Blake, and Pip
Withridge are our guests.
For many of us, it's a highattention moment in the year.
But the question is, how do weturn that attention into genuine
gospel impact?
(00:29):
How do we make Easter count?
How do we turn crowds intodisciples or people to move from
visitor to believer?
Or how to see people attend anEaster service in the first
place?
How does Easter fit in with youryear-round evangelism pathway?
What should we prioritize andwhat not to do?
Plus, follow-up that happens andworks.
(00:51):
Three Sydney mission pastors arehere to help us.
Braden Lucas from ChristchurchGladeswell, Peter Blake from St.
Stephen's Norman Hurst, and PipWitherge from St.
Paul's Carlingford.
Now we're going to start withthe pastor's heart.
And Braden, you're looking aftermission at your church, but also
magnification.
So what is your pastor's heartfor the Easter weekend this
(01:15):
year?
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to claim too much to
be an expert in magnificationspace because that's about a
two-month-old role for me.
But I think my pastor's heartfor Easter would say, I want to
see people captured orrecaptured by the core truths of
the gospel, the death andresurrection of Jesus.
Captured, maybe being those whoare coming as non-Christians for
(01:37):
the first time.
Recaptured being our people growdeveloping a greater
appreciation for the core gospeltruths.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Your pastor's heart, Peter?
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Yeah, I think it uh since Stephen's Normanhurst,
we've seen over the last coupleof years, I really like the
language you're talking about,recaptured.
We're seeing a lot of people whothe last time they came to
church was before COVID.
And they're starting tore-engage, particularly in in
Normanhurst, we've got a highpercentage of Catholics.
We're seeing a few um lapsedCatholics come to church.
(02:08):
Some of them came to to ourevangelism course last night,
actually.
And so we're looking at reallytrying to engage those people as
well over Easter as well.
And for for Catholics, you know,this is a traditional moment.
This is a great time to sort ofuh be thinking about them as
they come to as they come tochurch over Easter too.
SPEAKER_03 (02:29):
Yeah, I think I I want to see people um who don't
believe in Jesus come to beconvinced that exploring who
Jesus is is worthwhile.
Um so people who are um I thinkdisbelieving to think okay,
there's enough here about theresurrection that I can actually
(02:50):
uh it's worthwhile digging intothis.
And people who are justdisinterested, apathetic, to
think actually this isinteresting, this actually does
change life if it's true.
So let me let me explore.
And I think as well, just to seeour church as a space where
actually that's doable, wherethey can come and explore, and
it's not strange and weird thatpeople they're actually uh
(03:12):
welcoming and understand thatthe claims of Christianity are a
bit strange to the outsider, andtherefore think, hey, they they
get where I'm coming from.
Let me try and get where they'recoming from, let me explore.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
So maybe let me just ask you about the competing
goals, because you were kind oftalking first date, come and
explore, put your foot in thewater, and you were talking
about I've been around for awhile and I'm coming back, and
we're will you marry me?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
I reckon I reckon we're actually on exactly the
same page because my my I wantexactly what Pips just described
there.
I want these people to come tochurch, be convicted of the
gospel, see it as something thatis true.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
That was so could you just say, I think we're on
the same page?
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
I think I think we're actually on exactly the
same page.
Uh, because I want to see thesepeople who are coming back to
church, I want them to take thenext step.
Having come to church, I want tosee them take the next step and
come into a um, you know, anevangelistic course like
Discover or Explore or orwhatever it is that you run.
Um and so my my hope is thatyeah, we will be able to move
(04:20):
them to that next step and we'llbe encouraging them to to either
come back to church again or tosee that Christianity is
actually well worthinvestigating in a bit more
detail at an evangelisticcourse.
SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
So yeah, oh well I I find it interesting, like none
of us have said we our heart isthat people would become
Christians on Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
I think we're all on the same page that it's um So
that's more first date then orearly dating rather than will
you marry me?
SPEAKER_03 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So um I'm not sure if I'mtotally tracked with the whole
marriage and dating analogy, butum yeah, I know I get what you
mean.
I get what you mean.
I think I think like there is, Ifeel like there is this um
movement, this sort ofunderstanding that it actually
does take a long time for peopleto um explore Christianity to
the point where they canactually make an informed
decision about whether they wantto follow Jesus or not.
(05:08):
Um yeah, East Easter Sunday, Ithink it plays it plays a role
for those who have beenexploring and who have been
thinking about it, and it's likea it's like a big moment in
their life, um, in theirjourney, but it's also a big
moment for someone who comes andthey've never really thought
much about it because yeah, itis that first date, it is that
first step, and we want it to beyou want your first date to be
(05:30):
good and compelling and you wantthe person to keep going.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
I think one of the things as well that I would
probably try to add on to whatwe've been saying is I probably
conceive of the for the purposeof Easter, I think more actually
about it for our people and howit actually relates to them
wanting to be able to do that.
Celebrating the death of Christ.
No, no, it in so we're talking,I think at the moment we're
mostly talking about what'swhat's a goal for a
(05:53):
non-Christian who's kind of anon-Christian visitor.
My ultimate goal for Easter,whilst quick caveat is I'm
always thinking about thenon-Christian at a moment like
this, is our people, I wouldsay, are inevitably thinking of
this as an evangelistic moment.
And so for me, I wanted them tosee us as a church put on a
(06:15):
really good moment so that itactually builds confidence in
them for other evangelisticthings we run.
And for us, it's a course thatthat's the moment where we are
really wanting to andprayerfully wanting to see
people converted, and that's ourmain engine for that.
And so if I give them a reallygood moment at Easter, that
builds their confidence for theother evangelistic things that I
really want to see them bring intheir friend to.
unknown (06:37):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:37):
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
Yeah.
So how do you what are you doingnow to win the confidence of
your members and to get peopleto come along?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
Yeah.
Um well, we took a slightlydifferent track to I think a few
churches this year.
Um, instead of uh in January,it's it's usually popular to
have like a five questions forJesus sort of series.
We we didn't do that.
We started in Mark's Gospel umfirst week of January, and we've
been preaching through Mark'sGospel all the way up until um
(07:10):
Easter.
So we're gonna hit you knowchapter chapter 15, chapter 16
on Good Friday and EasterSunday.
And our hope with that is thatit's going to build an
understanding.
We're gonna be journeying sortof with Jesus, taking the
congregation with us as we'reheading towards the cross.
And so hopefully that willactually build a bit of um
(07:31):
energy and understanding aboutthe significance of Easter, and
hopefully that will flow intojust what Braden was talking
about before about encouragingour people to see this as uh as
a bring votation moment tochurch and encouraging them to
get on board with bringingpeople to church and engaging
them with evangelism as well.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Don't you wish that Mark had written the
resurrection just a little bitbetter?
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
I I'm really happy with the way he wrote it,
Dominique.
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
I just got there and uh and I just thought, I just
wish there was a bit moredetail.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Yeah, but it makes you think, doesn't it?
And that's what's really wellthat's what I appreciate about
eight about Mark um 16, thatit's only it's it's eight
verses.
And he sort of goes, why is itonly eight verses?
They went away, they they wereafraid.
I think that's the last verse ofof Mark 8.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
It's like why we've had a more clean cut of it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
But it makes you read it again and also makes you
think, what what really didhappen on on that Easter, that
Easter Sunday?
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
So I distracted you from the main point you were
making, which was um talk to meabout the build-up and what
you're doing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:40):
Well, I think I'd say like if your church is not
already a place where peoplefeel comfortable to bring their
non-Christian friends and on anyrandom Sunday, then your Easter
Sunday is not going to beeffective.
And so you you want to startsome like if Easter Sunday is
where you're starting, sure,start there, but don't end
there.
Like a great Easter Sunday isnot a mission strategy.
(09:01):
Like you need to um create aculture in your church life
where people can bring theirnon-Christian friends, and so
that's where we find a um like awe have a weekly Bible study
that's open for non-Christiansand new Christians.
We've got a course we run everyterm um called Explore
Christianity, where people areinvited to come in.
(09:22):
Um, there's no pressure to umlike make a decision, like we
don't put the pressure on forpeople to make a decision in our
course.
We just invite people to comeand explore and uh make an
informed decision when they'reready about who Jesus is and
following him.
And I think that's what willmake our Easter Sunday effective
is having that culture.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
That the culture overall is for mission and a
mission heart and a high missionheat.
But what are you doing to drawpeople's attention to the fact
that something's on at churchthis year in a few weeks' time?
SPEAKER_03 (09:55):
So I think like I'd summarise it as we want um clear
and compelling communication inthe lead up.
And so advertising it early, um,letting people know exactly what
is on and when.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
You've been talking about it all year that we're
gonna get to Mark 15 and Mark16.
Good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah, it's in the calendar.
But I think I think that'sexactly right.
I think maybe thinking um whenif you're thinking flyers or
postcards, something to handpeople, I think that's really
important.
That comes back to the bringinvitation.
If you give your people so, youknow, five, for example, five
weeks before Easter, startputting on the seats of of you
know, every seat, a postcard forEaster so that people can give
(10:34):
that to someone and bring thatfriend along.
I think that's really helpful.
Can I just can I push back onthat?
SPEAKER_03 (10:41):
So here's here's here's a question I've got
around advertising, right?
Like if you invite your like thelast time you invited your
friend to something, how did youinvite them to the thing?
Text.
Yeah.
Text, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
So postcard.
Not everyone thinks the same waythat we do, though.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so so sometimes it can behelpful to have that postcard
just to put it on the fridge andit gives them something to hand
to, bit of information toconversation starter.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Um, I get what you're saying though.
I do think it maybe it's agenerational thing too, because
I know I have people in mychurch who will give the
postcard, yeah, but it won't bemany.
SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
But you know what, you know what this highlights?
It highlights the need toactually chat with your staff
team about Easter and actuallyuh brainstorm if we're gonna get
the church on board, what are weactually going to do?
What's the best way to do that?
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
So take us into your staff meeting and the
conversations that have happenedfor each of you at how to get
people there.
Yeah.
You've been telling everyone Iwant you to text.
Now, what have you done?
SPEAKER_03 (11:37):
Well, it's it's um we want we want a clear presence
on our website.
So, like often I'll send a linkto something and say, Hey, you
keen for this?
Send a link.
Um we want um we want clarityaround the different days of of
Easter and who they're for.
And so we're doing a MaundyThursday, we're doing Good
(11:58):
Friday, we're doing EasterSunday, and we've got um we've
got um an event for um an eventthat's aimed at outsiders with
that's family friendly withkids, and uh services for
outsiders who are not bringingtheir kids along.
And then we've got um eventsthat are more aimed at the
(12:20):
insider, the the church memberum who have kids, so that's our
Good Friday, and then uh churchmembers who don't want a kids
sort of service, which is ourmorning Thursday, so that's how
we've sort of laid it out.
So clarity around that.
Um and then um just creatingenergy and hype, particularly on
(12:41):
social media.
Um we want we want to lean intosocial media because that's
primarily I think the way thatpeople find out about things.
I don't think it's doorknocking, I don't think it's the
letterbox drop, um I don't Idon't even think it's the people
handing flies to their friendsanymore.
I think it's online.
Agree, disagree?
SPEAKER_02 (13:02):
Uh I would say I mostly agree.
I think what one way we doactually see people at our
church, and it's a little bitbecause of where our church is
geographically.
We're right on Victoria Road inGlades, also heaps of people are
driving past all the time.
So we do get walk-ins because ofsignage.
So we do put a bit of effort andwork into our signage.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
I think we do, I think we do too.
We're not as high traffic asyou, but we're on a prominent
corner.
SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
But that yeah, that could just be quite contextually
based.
But otherwise, we'll do a prettypretty solid um social media
campaign.
Our cons director will managethat.
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
Um we still need to talk about it as a staff team,
which is really good.
Uh we've decided who's gonna bepreaching and what we're gonna
be preaching on, but we need weneed to talk about uh the sort
of strategy that we're gonna bedoing.
Uh but I I w want to be I thinka good place to start a good
place to start is thinkingthrough the people who are gonna
(13:59):
be arriving at church, thenewcomers, the visitors, um,
thinking through where are theyat in life, why are they coming
to church.
Some of them will be there likehostages.
They've been invited along andthey've come along because it's
part of the family tradition todo.
And so I think uh spending a bitof time, an hour or two,
actually thinking through howhow are we gonna prepare for
(14:21):
that person, preacher, how areyou gonna prepare, how are you
gonna preach to that personwho's got their arms folded,
sitting down, doesn't want to bethere.
How are you gonna address thatperson in the room?
What questions are you going toprepare yourself to ask at the
end of the service to thatperson that you've seen crossing
their arms?
I think there's there's lots outof our control when it comes to
(14:42):
saving people.
God will save whoever he wants,whenever he wants.
But there's also there's alsostuff that's within our control,
and we can prepare ourselves byknowing, by thinking through
what's a good question to askthis person.
How do I engage this person ifthey haven't really been engaged
in the service?
And how do I engage the personwho's brought them along?
Um, yeah.
Texting, texting is great.
(15:03):
Um, social media campaigns aregreat.
I I I would still believe in thepostcard.
I think I think that's good.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Long live the postcard looks looks good on the
fridge.
We actually do, we print outlike a small batch of postcards
for people who really want to.
I'm not anti-pagnology.
There's not a big jart off.
Yeah, that's right.
Can I just ask a question aroundlike what are you actually um
putting on your flyer and youradvertising?
Because we've tried like a hook,you know what I mean?
(15:30):
Like not just Easter at aquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
But yeah, like a question to get question or
something like that.
We've had a big discussion aboutthis in our team the last
fortnight.
And uh Damien brought um he hewas going around the team
saying, What are the words thatyou would describe Sydney in a
West people at the moment?
And we we we came up withharried and kind of overwhelmed
and stressed and and andactually the consensus amongst
(15:55):
our team was fairly consistenton those where are we at as a
world today?
Yeah.
And so he he wrote a campaignthat kind of ran with that
theme, and then he wrote analternate campaign just with
Easter is on, and and uh heasked one of the advertising
guys in our church what hethought of the two campaigns,
(16:16):
and he said the guy said, Well,the strength of this one is the
weakness of this one, and thestrength of this one is the
weakness of that.
And and you couldn't have both,you had to pick one.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
So what's what's the strength of either?
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
So you've got one of Anandale.
One is Easter at Anandale, whichis kind of it's on, come, really
clear, you know, and and isgoing to pick up potentially the
person who thinks, Oh, yeah, Iought to go to church, you know.
Whereas the other one raising,if you like, the the kind of
unsettledness of life is uh morepitched at um just raising the
(16:52):
conversation and raising the nowI would have my cake and eat it
too, but I'm not sure I can.
SPEAKER_03 (16:58):
You can be too clever, I think, with the hooks,
and so you lose that clarity.
Like we were thinking about wewere tossing, it's like what
what do people care about now?
Cost of living.
So could you do something aboutyou know, Jesus had to die so
that we could live, that's thecost of living.
And it's like, well, are wegetting too clever?
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Like, are people gonna know Easter is on it?
We did a clever one a few yearsago, which I think was too
clever.
It was about um uh the ultimaterenovation.
And I mean, everyone here isrenovating in a uh terraces, you
know, and the ultimaterenovation is the heart change
you need, you know.
But I think we were just tooclever.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
I think we worry too much about these altogether.
Yeah, yeah.
I think the amount of time toEaster at Glades, but yeah, I
think the amount of time weworry about um putting energy
into the the hook that we'regonna put on a postcard.
We could be using to dosomething better.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
You work, you work your backgrounds in advertising.
You're the youth.
SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
It explains everything.
Yeah, it's been holding out onit.
Personally, I think I I think umlike I am a fan of Easter at
whatever because I think it uhlike it's majors on the clarity
and um in our area, like I'mkeen to help people who are um
maybe recent migrants toAustralia just to be like, oh,
here's here's like an Angloexperience at an Anglican
(18:13):
church, like I want to come andexperience this Easter at St.
Paul's.
However, this year we're notdoing that, we're we're trying
something different, um, just totest, just to see, like, you
know, if it if it moves theneedle at all, if it makes a
difference.
So we're doing the end of Mark'sgospel as well, and it ends on
that note of fear.
And someone um in our staff teamwas like, it's like scary good
(18:33):
news.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Wow.
And so we're running with like,this is this is scary good news.
Yeah.
And so we're running with thatas our kind of too clever.
Uh well, we'll see.
We'll see, I guess.
I'll I like it because it'slike, you know, people say, Oh,
that's scary good.
And um, you know, it's a hookinto Mark's gospel, and it it
maybe, maybe cuts through someof the noise of the someone
(18:55):
who's just disinterested,they're like, Easter's not for
me, but they see this and itdraws them.
We'll see.
SPEAKER_02 (19:00):
My my the reason I I kind of like play down the way
you word whatever you want toword, whether it's Easter ad or
a nice hook, is because actuallysomething Pete alluded to
earlier is who are most oftenthe non-Christians that are
gonna be at an Easter service.
I think this is also true ofChristmas too, and I think it's
(19:22):
basically two categories, butthey're both feeling obliged to
be there.
There's a third category aswell, but the biggest number of
people are from two categories.
One is obliged to be therebecause of some religious ideal
they have, they've got to go tochurch, and the other's the
family.
I'm obliged to be here becausemum wants me to, and it's
special weekend for mum orwhatever.
And so I think for those people,it doesn't matter what's on the
(19:44):
postcard because they're gonnacome out of their own
obligation.
And what then becomes superimportant is well, how do you,
on the day, whether it's Fridayor Sunday, cut through, treat
and meet those people, cutthrough in the sermon, but also
like I want to overstate theimportance of good welcoming and
a good welcoming culture.
SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
So tell me what you're telling your teams at the
moment as you lead up to it.
Uh I mean, um there's there'sreally what happens in the foyer
and what happens on the platformand what happens in the
conversations.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
So a big one is I'll be working with the other staff
member who um oversees all thewelcome teams.
So I don't oversee them, shedoes, and so we'll be in
conversation, making sure A,they're resourced, because
unfortunately Ether is also atime when some often a lot of
our people are away.
So we've got to that's numberone.
Are they resourced well?
And you know, depending on thepeople who are there, are they
(20:37):
resourced with high competency?
I think as well, like your bestwelcomers, uh, and making sure
that's true for all thedifferent like we'll probably
run two on Friday and then threeon the Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Uh, and so making sure all of them are well
resourced.
And and then um we'll do a postkind of gift thing we we've done
in the last couple of yearswhere we'll say from the front,
hey, uh maybe you've been herehearing about Christianity first
time or you're exploring it,something like that.
We've got a little bag, a littlewelcome pack we might call it,
um, that you can take on yourway to it.
(21:09):
Uh last year we put RebeccaMcLaughlin's Easter
Unbelievable, it's a tiny littleblue book.
And it one thing I like aboutRebecca McLaughlin, like it's
more down the apologetics line,which I'm we could talk about
that another time, but I'm not ahuge fan of.
But she often in her books alsoends with an actual kind of
gospel presentation.
So I like that about hers.
(21:30):
And then a gospel itself.
So I think last year we didLuke's gospel.
Um, we put that in there, andthen maybe a I'm sorry, a
postcard about some of ourministries as well.
Settled down.
The thing I like about it too issometimes you get your more
missionly minded, evangelisticminded people to be the hander
outer.
And so if a non Christian doescome, I say to them, Yeah, have
(21:51):
a conversation, see what you cando, see if you can Did people
put their hands up on a book theband?
No, we have a point outside.
Point outside.
We literally have an orangetent, um church color.
Is orange, so it's in your face.
Uh, and so we say, go to theorange tent if you'd like one.
That way it's kind of you know,it's on their own sort of
initiative to have done.
And then I say to the peoplethat yeah, go on, go for it.
(22:12):
Have a conversation if you can.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
What are you doing to particularly look after the
person who's coming?
I think I'm just gonna do it,bro.
In just a second.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Still's really good.
Get an orange tent too.
SPEAKER_03 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah.
We were thinking about resourcesto hand out, and um, yeah, I
think uh Andrew Errington hasone as well.
Um, can we trust what thegospels say about Jesus?
Oh, so there are a few differentresources we're thinking what
what could be helpful to handout to someone or have available
for someone.
Things like we want to um havegood coffee after the service um
(22:45):
for our afternoon and nightservices, we're thinking of a
barbecue, just a space to hangout outside and um have some
food, just a nice warm,welcoming space to um yeah,
spend time together.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
Um what attention do you want to go to in terms of
the construction of the service?
Um I'm thinking um uh what's themood that you're looking for?
And also um what are you doingto achieve what you were asking
for a moment ago, Braden?
Yeah.
Pete, let's start with you.
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
I'm thinking that the the flow of the service, you
don't want it to be sad or orsomber, but you do want it to be
um, I think respectful at thebeginning, but you do want to
end on that note of of joy thatknowing that Christ both um Good
Friday and Easter Sunday?
Oh, okay.
I'm talking about Good Fridayfirst.
Easter Sunday, it's joy, it'scelebration.
(23:40):
Like this is amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
So are you putting balloons in the foyer or no?
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
Um no, but I've empty balloons, yeah.
I've got uh I've I sort of tryto I'd be trying to keep um
Easter Friday, Easter Sunday.
I think particularly EasterFriday, because it's where I
think most of the visitors aregonna be coming because it's the
public holiday.
Easter Friday is bigger for youthan Easter Sunday.
I think so in terms of visitors.
Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
Um but do you agree with that?
Uh well we've our Easter Sundayis gonna be our big invite day
because we think we'll get morevisitors on Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
You're going for Easter Sunday rather than Easter
Friday.
Interesting.
Hey, can I just ask digression?
Night services on Easter Sunday,because for us they've been
consistently low numbers,whereas we've had strong
attendance Friday morning,Sunday morning.
What's your experience?
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Yeah, um I'm struggling to like remember
really the numbers of those.
Right.
But we've always just kept ournight service.
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
In the time I've been there anyway.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:40):
Last year all of our services were up except for our
night service, which was down.
But I think that's because lastyear was right in the middle of
the school holidays, and we hadlots of our young adults away on
um camps, conferences, thingslike that in the school
holidays.
Whereas this year, Easter's atthe start of the school
holidays.
And so, but that doesn't reallylike we just we run with our
(25:03):
night service because it's umyou know, it's our night church
on a on a Sunday night.
We want to keep that um, itreaches the young adults
demographic.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
So that's that mission.
I'm gonna ask you guys to thinkabout that.
I was um uh I was struck a fewyears ago.
I'm pretty sure Hillsong didn'trun Easter Sunday night, do you
know?
And I thought, I'm sure they'rethinking about this, do you
know?
Um, but I'm not sure.
I'm I mean I don't know.
I just it's a I just thought itwas an interesting conversation
(25:35):
worth um asking.
Back to you, Peter.
You were you were runningthrough somber on Good Friday,
celebration Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
Yeah, trying to collect my thoughts again.
No, no, no, definitelycelebration on on Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
And and so what are you are you looking to have a
testimony or what are youlooking to have in the gathering
that's special?
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Um I'd be I'd be trying to yeah, a testimony
could be really good.
Uh I I I I love that ideaactually.
Um, because it celebrates theidea that the risen Lord is
still changing lives and savingpeople.
Um, I think that's fantastic.
Uh, but I'd be looking at tryingto keep the services actually as
(26:14):
as as normal as possible so thatthose people who are coming
along visiting, um, when theycome back again, they're greeted
with something that they're usedto or that they've seen before.
So it's it's not a big surprise.
You're not trying to go, um, ohwell, I'm gonna go back to that
service because it's got um ajumping castle.
A jumping castle.
(26:35):
I'm I'm I'm gonna go back to it.
I know what to expect.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Oh well, I think there's a good there's a good
thing there.
It's like you don't want it tobe too different from your
normal Sunday because what theycome to is what they're going to
expect.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It can be you want it to be abit you want it to be special
and bigger, but not umdramatically.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
What we were saying before, um thoughtful targeting
for um people with kids andthoughtful targeting for people
without kids.
And I mean I found thatinteresting that you were
pitching Thursday night atpeople without kids and Friday
morning at people with kids.
Yeah, that's right.
And um how does it Do you havekids in the service at Easter?
(27:18):
Do you do it or do they um or dothey go out for the sermon?
Do they what what's the planthere?
Are you running a children'sprogramme at Easter or not?
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
Or Um We we have like an all-in service.
Like we'll have an all-inservice for um Easter Sunday
morning.
So ev everyone in and there'sstuff for the kids and there's
babies and there's lots of noiseand it's chaos, and but what it
what it um it shows people whoare coming in with their kids
who are visiting is this is achurch that loves children and
(27:47):
it's a safe space for them andit's a fun space for them.
And so um what are you doingthere, Brayden?
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
We'll still run a kids program.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Now, why?
Let's hear the argument.
I want you two to debate yourtopic, defend your bosses and
your scarf teams.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Yeah, well, if they watch this, they might be like,
that's not what we think,Braden, but we'll see.
SPEAKER_03 (28:09):
Yeah, well, we haven't had all the meetings
with the supercoming thing.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
I think that you can actually achieve the for the
visitor that you love children,you're on about kids um and
loving them and and caring forthem well, even still by having
an awesome program.
Because when they leave thatprogram, if they've had an
awesome time, they've met aleader they really get along
with, they've met um kids theirage that they really get along
with, they come back and go,Mom, dad, that was awesome.
(28:40):
You know, see the thing I made.
Um, and also I I'm big on thefact that we get to do a better
job at teaching our kids if wedo it in a way that's age
appropriate for them.
And that can and and that'sactually the same for our adults
as well.
We do a better job of hittingthe adults aware they're at if
we can do that in an ageappropriate way.
(29:01):
And sometimes when they're allin together, we are giving up
somewhere on one of those.
SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Okay, Carlingford, why is Gladesville wrong?
SPEAKER_03 (29:09):
Uh well, no, Gladesville's not wrong.
And probably we we want ourprograms to be, you know, our
kids' programs um that run uhthroughout the school term to be
excellent and to you know be aconfidence builder for parents.
But um, I think one of thereasons maybe is so if you're
new to church and you bring,say, your two-year-old, your
three-year-old along, um,there's not that trust there
(29:31):
already that you'd hand them offto a kid's program.
And so by bringing them into theservice and actually seeing like
even from up front, the thetalk, the songs, everything, um,
is it's kind of like that um thePixar thing where it's like, you
know, it's for the for the kids,but it's kind of winking at the
parents and saying, you know,you you get this as well.
SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
And do you tell your people, you know, that that's
the like this is going to be thethe vibe of this Sunday morning?
SPEAKER_03 (29:58):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (29:59):
So if you want your say uh non-Christian spouse to
come along, maybe come to adifferent one.
Is that how Um Because my thingthe the thought behind my
question there is well, if I'mbringing a non-Christian spouse
along to church and they seethat there's a lot of
kid-friendly stuff, they'remaybe switching off and already
thinking, well, this isn'treally for me.
Yeah, and that might lower theconfidence in the person who's
(30:21):
brought them along.
SPEAKER_03 (30:22):
Yeah, I mean, um that hasn't really been our
experience.
Like people who come along evenwithout kids, if they're
non-Christians and they'readults, they see that, oh, this
is a church that's about likefamilies, that's great, and they
can appreciate, and I thinkthey're you know often mature
enough to be like, oh yeah, Iget it.
I get that this is they want tobe great for families and kids.
(30:44):
But um, we do make it reallyclear that it will be like a
family-friendly all-in serviceso that if someone is thinking
that way, if someone's like, Oh,I've got someone who I really I
just want them to have like uh asermon that's targeted at
adults, they can bring them tothe night service or the
afternoon service.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
But but something, yeah, so something really
interesting is is that um youknow I was gonna get you to be
the deciding voice.
Also a different opinion.
Um classic, and uh but somethingthat we're we're hitting on um
is that church is very differentto society, and we we we all
(31:21):
come from from large-ish Sydneychurches for for the small
church, there's there's a lot ofencouragement in this as well.
Like you don't need to put on umI I don't think you you need to
put on a lot of fancy programsor change too much over Easter.
Your people will do so much forum for showcasing the um you
(31:45):
know we we you know the gospelis preached during the sermon
and and we encourage each otherwith it, we sing it, but then
after the service, we live itout, we we live out the gospel
to each other.
And when visitors come along andwhen they've you know they've
tasted what secularism bringsand it doesn't taste good, when
they come into our church andthey see a community of people
(32:07):
who love each other with a witha a supernatural kind of love,
despite differences.
At our church, we've got peoplewho who love Trump, who don't
love Trump across all thepolitical spectrum, but united
in their love for Christ andlove for each other.
When they see that, and this isthis is like the testimony of
(32:27):
people who've come, when theysee the church living out the
love of Christ, that is atestimony to itself that there
is something that there issomething out there that has
changed these people.
And so um programs are reallygood because they can actively
target demographics uh a lotmore sharply.
But for a for a small churchthat's thinking through how do I
(32:49):
prepare for Easter, getting yourpeople on board excited about
newcomers coming, um, you know,welcome teams firing and and
that sort of thing, gettingpeople excited about the fact
that there's going to benewcomers and the church
community living out the way itdoes in love is a great
testament and very powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
I I'm very interested in what you said,
Pip, but I'm um I I've beentrying to process my own
feelings as as you two weredebating before.
And I think I'd admit, I'd Ithink I'd need to admit that I
feel inept at speaking at theall-age service.
(33:31):
You know, I'm I think I'm abetter than average communicator
to the adult audience, but Ireally don't feel competent
holding that multi-generationalaudience.
And so and and so I think whydid I like what Braden was
saying?
And I actually thought it'sactually got to do with my own
(33:52):
inabilities.
Anyway, that was that'sinteresting.
I was processing it.
It's it's interesting.
But you may have a really giftedperson who can communicate to
the all-age.
SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
Well, so on on Easter Sunday morning, our
senior minister will be umdressed in a clown suit?
Not quite.
Well, so so he he and our umkids minister, they've got a
very they're they're verydifferent people, but they've
got this great chemistry on onstage because in a way our
senior minister sort of playsplays the the straight man and
(34:24):
is very and you know iscommunicating to adults
primarily.
Yeah.
And our kids minister is justfantastic at like speaking to
kids and even really young kidsand getting them engaged,
getting them involved, and atthe same time the adults in the
room stay engaged.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
And so having two people up the front, so it's two
people up the front, and it'sworking off the particular gifts
of the particular people thatyou've got.
That's right.
And so, I mean, we can argue thein principle, but it's actually
whether or not you've got thegifts to pull it off.
That's a that's part of it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:57):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's even true if youdon't have kids in and thinking
about who the main preacher isfor the different services, or
if you're gonna have the sameperson the whole of Sunday, same
person.
It's probably the way mostpeople would end up going.
SPEAKER_01 (35:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
You you probably want someone on your team who's
a bit more gifted at theevangelistic style as well.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for coming in.
That's been super helpful and uhwill prompt some really good
discussion in our team.
I'm taking lots of churches.
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
Now I know what to tell my team about.
SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
Our guests on The Pastor's Heart, Pete Blake.
He's from St.
Stephen's Normanhurst in Sydney,Pip Witheridge from St.
Paul's, Carlingford, and BradenLucas from Christchurch in
Gladesville.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
Easter evangelism that actually works.
How not to waste Easter thisyear.
It is The Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele and BradenLucas, Peter Blake, and Pip
Withridge are our guests.
For many of us, it's a highattention moment in the year.
But the question is, how do weturn that attention into genuine
gospel impact?
(00:29):
How do we make Easter count?
How do we turn crowds intodisciples or people to move from
visitor to believer?
Or how to see people attend anEaster service in the first
place?
How does Easter fit in with youryear-round evangelism pathway?
What should we prioritize andwhat not to do?
Plus, follow-up that happens andworks.
(00:51):
Three Sydney mission pastors arehere to help us.
Braden Lucas from ChristchurchGladeswell, Peter Blake from St.
Stephen's Norman Hurst, and PipWitherge from St.
Paul's Carlingford.
Now we're going to start withthe pastor's heart.
And Braden, you're looking aftermission at your church, but also
magnification.
So what is your pastor's heartfor the Easter weekend this
(01:15):
year?
SPEAKER_02 (01:16):
Yeah, I mean, I don't want to claim too much to
be an expert in magnificationspace because that's about a
two-month-old role for me.
But I think my pastor's heartfor Easter would say, I want to
see people captured orrecaptured by the core truths of
the gospel, the death andresurrection of Jesus.
Captured, maybe being those whoare coming as non-Christians for
(01:37):
the first time.
Recaptured being our people growdeveloping a greater
appreciation for the core gospeltruths.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Your pastor's heart, Peter?
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Yeah, I think it uh since Stephen's Normanhurst,
we've seen over the last coupleof years, I really like the
language you're talking about,recaptured.
We're seeing a lot of people whothe last time they came to
church was before COVID.
And they're starting tore-engage, particularly in in
Normanhurst, we've got a highpercentage of Catholics.
We're seeing a few um lapsedCatholics come to church.
(02:08):
Some of them came to to ourevangelism course last night,
actually.
And so we're looking at reallytrying to engage those people as
well over Easter as well.
And for for Catholics, you know,this is a traditional moment.
This is a great time to sort ofuh be thinking about them as
they come to as they come tochurch over Easter too.
SPEAKER_03 (02:29):
Yeah, I think I I want to see people um who don't
believe in Jesus come to beconvinced that exploring who
Jesus is is worthwhile.
Um so people who are um I thinkdisbelieving to think okay,
there's enough here about theresurrection that I can actually
(02:50):
uh it's worthwhile digging intothis.
And people who are justdisinterested, apathetic, to
think actually this isinteresting, this actually does
change life if it's true.
So let me let me explore.
And I think as well, just to seeour church as a space where
actually that's doable, wherethey can come and explore, and
it's not strange and weird thatpeople they're actually uh
(03:12):
welcoming and understand thatthe claims of Christianity are a
bit strange to the outsider, andtherefore think, hey, they they
get where I'm coming from.
Let me try and get where they'recoming from, let me explore.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
So maybe let me just ask you about the competing
goals, because you were kind oftalking first date, come and
explore, put your foot in thewater, and you were talking
about I've been around for awhile and I'm coming back, and
we're will you marry me?
SPEAKER_00 (03:37):
I reckon I reckon we're actually on exactly the
same page because my my I wantexactly what Pips just described
there.
I want these people to come tochurch, be convicted of the
gospel, see it as something thatis true.
SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
That was so could you just say, I think we're on
the same page?
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
I think I think we're actually on exactly the
same page.
Uh, because I want to see thesepeople who are coming back to
church, I want them to take thenext step.
Having come to church, I want tosee them take the next step and
come into a um, you know, anevangelistic course like
Discover or Explore or orwhatever it is that you run.
Um and so my my hope is thatyeah, we will be able to move
(04:20):
them to that next step and we'llbe encouraging them to to either
come back to church again or tosee that Christianity is
actually well worthinvestigating in a bit more
detail at an evangelisticcourse.
SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
So yeah, oh well I I find it interesting, like none
of us have said we our heart isthat people would become
Christians on Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
I think we're all on the same page that it's um So
that's more first date then orearly dating rather than will
you marry me?
SPEAKER_03 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So um I'm not sure if I'mtotally tracked with the whole
marriage and dating analogy, butum yeah, I know I get what you
mean.
I get what you mean.
I think I think like there is, Ifeel like there is this um
movement, this sort ofunderstanding that it actually
does take a long time for peopleto um explore Christianity to
the point where they canactually make an informed
decision about whether they wantto follow Jesus or not.
(05:08):
Um yeah, East Easter Sunday, Ithink it plays it plays a role
for those who have beenexploring and who have been
thinking about it, and it's likea it's like a big moment in
their life, um, in theirjourney, but it's also a big
moment for someone who comes andthey've never really thought
much about it because yeah, itis that first date, it is that
first step, and we want it to beyou want your first date to be
(05:30):
good and compelling and you wantthe person to keep going.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
I think one of the things as well that I would
probably try to add on to whatwe've been saying is I probably
conceive of the for the purposeof Easter, I think more actually
about it for our people and howit actually relates to them
wanting to be able to do that.
Celebrating the death of Christ.
No, no, it in so we're talking,I think at the moment we're
mostly talking about what'swhat's a goal for a
(05:53):
non-Christian who's kind of anon-Christian visitor.
My ultimate goal for Easter,whilst quick caveat is I'm
always thinking about thenon-Christian at a moment like
this, is our people, I wouldsay, are inevitably thinking of
this as an evangelistic moment.
And so for me, I wanted them tosee us as a church put on a
(06:15):
really good moment so that itactually builds confidence in
them for other evangelisticthings we run.
And for us, it's a course thatthat's the moment where we are
really wanting to andprayerfully wanting to see
people converted, and that's ourmain engine for that.
And so if I give them a reallygood moment at Easter, that
builds their confidence for theother evangelistic things that I
really want to see them bring intheir friend to.
unknown (06:37):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:37):
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01 (06:38):
Yeah.
So how do you what are you doingnow to win the confidence of
your members and to get peopleto come along?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
Yeah.
Um well, we took a slightlydifferent track to I think a few
churches this year.
Um, instead of uh in January,it's it's usually popular to
have like a five questions forJesus sort of series.
We we didn't do that.
We started in Mark's Gospel umfirst week of January, and we've
been preaching through Mark'sGospel all the way up until um
(07:10):
Easter.
So we're gonna hit you knowchapter chapter 15, chapter 16
on Good Friday and EasterSunday.
And our hope with that is thatit's going to build an
understanding.
We're gonna be journeying sortof with Jesus, taking the
congregation with us as we'reheading towards the cross.
And so hopefully that willactually build a bit of um
(07:31):
energy and understanding aboutthe significance of Easter, and
hopefully that will flow intojust what Braden was talking
about before about encouragingour people to see this as uh as
a bring votation moment tochurch and encouraging them to
get on board with bringingpeople to church and engaging
them with evangelism as well.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Don't you wish that Mark had written the
resurrection just a little bitbetter?
SPEAKER_00 (07:54):
I I'm really happy with the way he wrote it,
Dominique.
SPEAKER_01 (08:02):
I just got there and uh and I just thought, I just
wish there was a bit moredetail.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:08):
Yeah, but it makes you think, doesn't it?
And that's what's really wellthat's what I appreciate about
eight about Mark um 16, thatit's only it's it's eight
verses.
And he sort of goes, why is itonly eight verses?
They went away, they they wereafraid.
I think that's the last verse ofof Mark 8.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
It's like why we've had a more clean cut of it.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
But it makes you read it again and also makes you
think, what what really didhappen on on that Easter, that
Easter Sunday?
SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
So I distracted you from the main point you were
making, which was um talk to meabout the build-up and what
you're doing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (08:40):
Well, I think I'd say like if your church is not
already a place where peoplefeel comfortable to bring their
non-Christian friends and on anyrandom Sunday, then your Easter
Sunday is not going to beeffective.
And so you you want to startsome like if Easter Sunday is
where you're starting, sure,start there, but don't end
there.
Like a great Easter Sunday isnot a mission strategy.
(09:01):
Like you need to um create aculture in your church life
where people can bring theirnon-Christian friends, and so
that's where we find a um like awe have a weekly Bible study
that's open for non-Christiansand new Christians.
We've got a course we run everyterm um called Explore
Christianity, where people areinvited to come in.
(09:22):
Um, there's no pressure to umlike make a decision, like we
don't put the pressure on forpeople to make a decision in our
course.
We just invite people to comeand explore and uh make an
informed decision when they'reready about who Jesus is and
following him.
And I think that's what willmake our Easter Sunday effective
is having that culture.
SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
That the culture overall is for mission and a
mission heart and a high missionheat.
But what are you doing to drawpeople's attention to the fact
that something's on at churchthis year in a few weeks' time?
SPEAKER_03 (09:55):
So I think like I'd summarise it as we want um clear
and compelling communication inthe lead up.
And so advertising it early, um,letting people know exactly what
is on and when.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
You've been talking about it all year that we're
gonna get to Mark 15 and Mark16.
Good for you.
SPEAKER_00 (10:13):
Yeah, it's in the calendar.
But I think I think that'sexactly right.
I think maybe thinking um whenif you're thinking flyers or
postcards, something to handpeople, I think that's really
important.
That comes back to the bringinvitation.
If you give your people so, youknow, five, for example, five
weeks before Easter, startputting on the seats of of you
know, every seat, a postcard forEaster so that people can give
(10:34):
that to someone and bring thatfriend along.
I think that's really helpful.
Can I just can I push back onthat?
SPEAKER_03 (10:41):
So here's here's here's a question I've got
around advertising, right?
Like if you invite your like thelast time you invited your
friend to something, how did youinvite them to the thing?
Text.
Yeah.
Text, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (10:52):
So postcard.
Not everyone thinks the same waythat we do, though.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so so sometimes it can behelpful to have that postcard
just to put it on the fridge andit gives them something to hand
to, bit of information toconversation starter.
SPEAKER_02 (11:05):
Um, I get what you're saying though.
I do think it maybe it's agenerational thing too, because
I know I have people in mychurch who will give the
postcard, yeah, but it won't bemany.
SPEAKER_00 (11:13):
But you know what, you know what this highlights?
It highlights the need toactually chat with your staff
team about Easter and actuallyuh brainstorm if we're gonna get
the church on board, what are weactually going to do?
What's the best way to do that?
SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
So take us into your staff meeting and the
conversations that have happenedfor each of you at how to get
people there.
Yeah.
You've been telling everyone Iwant you to text.
Now, what have you done?
SPEAKER_03 (11:37):
Well, it's it's um we want we want a clear presence
on our website.
So, like often I'll send a linkto something and say, Hey, you
keen for this?
Send a link.
Um we want um we want clarityaround the different days of of
Easter and who they're for.
And so we're doing a MaundyThursday, we're doing Good
(11:58):
Friday, we're doing EasterSunday, and we've got um we've
got um an event for um an eventthat's aimed at outsiders with
that's family friendly withkids, and uh services for
outsiders who are not bringingtheir kids along.
And then we've got um eventsthat are more aimed at the
(12:20):
insider, the the church memberum who have kids, so that's our
Good Friday, and then uh churchmembers who don't want a kids
sort of service, which is ourmorning Thursday, so that's how
we've sort of laid it out.
So clarity around that.
Um and then um just creatingenergy and hype, particularly on
(12:41):
social media.
Um we want we want to lean intosocial media because that's
primarily I think the way thatpeople find out about things.
I don't think it's doorknocking, I don't think it's the
letterbox drop, um I don't Idon't even think it's the people
handing flies to their friendsanymore.
I think it's online.
Agree, disagree?
SPEAKER_02 (13:02):
Uh I would say I mostly agree.
I think what one way we doactually see people at our
church, and it's a little bitbecause of where our church is
geographically.
We're right on Victoria Road inGlades, also heaps of people are
driving past all the time.
So we do get walk-ins because ofsignage.
So we do put a bit of effort andwork into our signage.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
I think we do, I think we do too.
We're not as high traffic asyou, but we're on a prominent
corner.
SPEAKER_02 (13:26):
But that yeah, that could just be quite contextually
based.
But otherwise, we'll do a prettypretty solid um social media
campaign.
Our cons director will managethat.
SPEAKER_00 (13:37):
Um we still need to talk about it as a staff team,
which is really good.
Uh we've decided who's gonna bepreaching and what we're gonna
be preaching on, but we need weneed to talk about uh the sort
of strategy that we're gonna bedoing.
Uh but I I w want to be I thinka good place to start a good
place to start is thinkingthrough the people who are gonna
(13:59):
be arriving at church, thenewcomers, the visitors, um,
thinking through where are theyat in life, why are they coming
to church.
Some of them will be there likehostages.
They've been invited along andthey've come along because it's
part of the family tradition todo.
And so I think uh spending a bitof time, an hour or two,
actually thinking through howhow are we gonna prepare for
(14:21):
that person, preacher, how areyou gonna prepare, how are you
gonna preach to that personwho's got their arms folded,
sitting down, doesn't want to bethere.
How are you gonna address thatperson in the room?
What questions are you going toprepare yourself to ask at the
end of the service to thatperson that you've seen crossing
their arms?
I think there's there's lots outof our control when it comes to
(14:42):
saving people.
God will save whoever he wants,whenever he wants.
But there's also there's alsostuff that's within our control,
and we can prepare ourselves byknowing, by thinking through
what's a good question to askthis person.
How do I engage this person ifthey haven't really been engaged
in the service?
And how do I engage the personwho's brought them along?
Um, yeah.
Texting, texting is great.
(15:03):
Um, social media campaigns aregreat.
I I I would still believe in thepostcard.
I think I think that's good.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Long live the postcard looks looks good on the
fridge.
We actually do, we print outlike a small batch of postcards
for people who really want to.
I'm not anti-pagnology.
There's not a big jart off.
Yeah, that's right.
Can I just ask a question aroundlike what are you actually um
putting on your flyer and youradvertising?
Because we've tried like a hook,you know what I mean?
(15:30):
Like not just Easter at aquestion.
SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
But yeah, like a question to get question or
something like that.
We've had a big discussion aboutthis in our team the last
fortnight.
And uh Damien brought um he hewas going around the team
saying, What are the words thatyou would describe Sydney in a
West people at the moment?
And we we we came up withharried and kind of overwhelmed
and stressed and and andactually the consensus amongst
(15:55):
our team was fairly consistenton those where are we at as a
world today?
Yeah.
And so he he wrote a campaignthat kind of ran with that
theme, and then he wrote analternate campaign just with
Easter is on, and and uh heasked one of the advertising
guys in our church what hethought of the two campaigns,
(16:16):
and he said the guy said, Well,the strength of this one is the
weakness of this one, and thestrength of this one is the
weakness of that.
And and you couldn't have both,you had to pick one.
SPEAKER_03 (16:25):
So what's what's the strength of either?
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
So you've got one of Anandale.
One is Easter at Anandale, whichis kind of it's on, come, really
clear, you know, and and isgoing to pick up potentially the
person who thinks, Oh, yeah, Iought to go to church, you know.
Whereas the other one raising,if you like, the the kind of
unsettledness of life is uh morepitched at um just raising the
(16:52):
conversation and raising the nowI would have my cake and eat it
too, but I'm not sure I can.
SPEAKER_03 (16:58):
You can be too clever, I think, with the hooks,
and so you lose that clarity.
Like we were thinking about wewere tossing, it's like what
what do people care about now?
Cost of living.
So could you do something aboutyou know, Jesus had to die so
that we could live, that's thecost of living.
And it's like, well, are wegetting too clever?
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Like, are people gonna know Easter is on it?
We did a clever one a few yearsago, which I think was too
clever.
It was about um uh the ultimaterenovation.
And I mean, everyone here isrenovating in a uh terraces, you
know, and the ultimaterenovation is the heart change
you need, you know.
But I think we were just tooclever.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
I think we worry too much about these altogether.
Yeah, yeah.
I think the amount of time toEaster at Glades, but yeah, I
think the amount of time weworry about um putting energy
into the the hook that we'regonna put on a postcard.
We could be using to dosomething better.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:47):
You work, you work your backgrounds in advertising.
You're the youth.
SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
It explains everything.
Yeah, it's been holding out onit.
Personally, I think I I think umlike I am a fan of Easter at
whatever because I think it uhlike it's majors on the clarity
and um in our area, like I'mkeen to help people who are um
maybe recent migrants toAustralia just to be like, oh,
here's here's like an Angloexperience at an Anglican
(18:13):
church, like I want to come andexperience this Easter at St.
Paul's.
However, this year we're notdoing that, we're we're trying
something different, um, just totest, just to see, like, you
know, if it if it moves theneedle at all, if it makes a
difference.
So we're doing the end of Mark'sgospel as well, and it ends on
that note of fear.
And someone um in our staff teamwas like, it's like scary good
(18:33):
news.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Wow.
And so we're running with like,this is this is scary good news.
Yeah.
And so we're running with thatas our kind of too clever.
Uh well, we'll see.
We'll see, I guess.
I'll I like it because it'slike, you know, people say, Oh,
that's scary good.
And um, you know, it's a hookinto Mark's gospel, and it it
maybe, maybe cuts through someof the noise of the someone
(18:55):
who's just disinterested,they're like, Easter's not for
me, but they see this and itdraws them.
We'll see.
SPEAKER_02 (19:00):
My my the reason I I kind of like play down the way
you word whatever you want toword, whether it's Easter ad or
a nice hook, is because actuallysomething Pete alluded to
earlier is who are most oftenthe non-Christians that are
gonna be at an Easter service.
I think this is also true ofChristmas too, and I think it's
(19:22):
basically two categories, butthey're both feeling obliged to
be there.
There's a third category aswell, but the biggest number of
people are from two categories.
One is obliged to be therebecause of some religious ideal
they have, they've got to go tochurch, and the other's the
family.
I'm obliged to be here becausemum wants me to, and it's
special weekend for mum orwhatever.
And so I think for those people,it doesn't matter what's on the
(19:44):
postcard because they're gonnacome out of their own
obligation.
And what then becomes superimportant is well, how do you,
on the day, whether it's Fridayor Sunday, cut through, treat
and meet those people, cutthrough in the sermon, but also
like I want to overstate theimportance of good welcoming and
a good welcoming culture.
SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
So tell me what you're telling your teams at the
moment as you lead up to it.
Uh I mean, um there's there'sreally what happens in the foyer
and what happens on the platformand what happens in the
conversations.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:14):
So a big one is I'll be working with the other staff
member who um oversees all thewelcome teams.
So I don't oversee them, shedoes, and so we'll be in
conversation, making sure A,they're resourced, because
unfortunately Ether is also atime when some often a lot of
our people are away.
So we've got to that's numberone.
Are they resourced well?
And you know, depending on thepeople who are there, are they
(20:37):
resourced with high competency?
I think as well, like your bestwelcomers, uh, and making sure
that's true for all thedifferent like we'll probably
run two on Friday and then threeon the Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:47):
Uh, and so making sure all of them are well
resourced.
And and then um we'll do a postkind of gift thing we we've done
in the last couple of yearswhere we'll say from the front,
hey, uh maybe you've been herehearing about Christianity first
time or you're exploring it,something like that.
We've got a little bag, a littlewelcome pack we might call it,
um, that you can take on yourway to it.
(21:09):
Uh last year we put RebeccaMcLaughlin's Easter
Unbelievable, it's a tiny littleblue book.
And it one thing I like aboutRebecca McLaughlin, like it's
more down the apologetics line,which I'm we could talk about
that another time, but I'm not ahuge fan of.
But she often in her books alsoends with an actual kind of
gospel presentation.
So I like that about hers.
(21:30):
And then a gospel itself.
So I think last year we didLuke's gospel.
Um, we put that in there, andthen maybe a I'm sorry, a
postcard about some of ourministries as well.
Settled down.
The thing I like about it too issometimes you get your more
missionly minded, evangelisticminded people to be the hander
outer.
And so if a non Christian doescome, I say to them, Yeah, have
(21:51):
a conversation, see what you cando, see if you can Did people
put their hands up on a book theband?
No, we have a point outside.
Point outside.
We literally have an orangetent, um church color.
Is orange, so it's in your face.
Uh, and so we say, go to theorange tent if you'd like one.
That way it's kind of you know,it's on their own sort of
initiative to have done.
And then I say to the peoplethat yeah, go on, go for it.
(22:12):
Have a conversation if you can.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
What are you doing to particularly look after the
person who's coming?
I think I'm just gonna do it,bro.
In just a second.
SPEAKER_00 (22:21):
Still's really good.
Get an orange tent too.
SPEAKER_03 (22:24):
Yeah, yeah.
We were thinking about resourcesto hand out, and um, yeah, I
think uh Andrew Errington hasone as well.
Um, can we trust what thegospels say about Jesus?
Oh, so there are a few differentresources we're thinking what
what could be helpful to handout to someone or have available
for someone.
Things like we want to um havegood coffee after the service um
(22:45):
for our afternoon and nightservices, we're thinking of a
barbecue, just a space to hangout outside and um have some
food, just a nice warm,welcoming space to um yeah,
spend time together.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
Um what attention do you want to go to in terms of
the construction of the service?
Um I'm thinking um uh what's themood that you're looking for?
And also um what are you doingto achieve what you were asking
for a moment ago, Braden?
Yeah.
Pete, let's start with you.
SPEAKER_00 (23:17):
I'm thinking that the the flow of the service, you
don't want it to be sad or orsomber, but you do want it to be
um, I think respectful at thebeginning, but you do want to
end on that note of of joy thatknowing that Christ both um Good
Friday and Easter Sunday?
Oh, okay.
I'm talking about Good Fridayfirst.
Easter Sunday, it's joy, it'scelebration.
(23:40):
Like this is amazing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:41):
So are you putting balloons in the foyer or no?
SPEAKER_00 (23:45):
Um no, but I've empty balloons, yeah.
I've got uh I've I sort of tryto I'd be trying to keep um
Easter Friday, Easter Sunday.
I think particularly EasterFriday, because it's where I
think most of the visitors aregonna be coming because it's the
public holiday.
Easter Friday is bigger for youthan Easter Sunday.
I think so in terms of visitors.
Right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
Um but do you agree with that?
Uh well we've our Easter Sundayis gonna be our big invite day
because we think we'll get morevisitors on Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
You're going for Easter Sunday rather than Easter
Friday.
Interesting.
Hey, can I just ask digression?
Night services on Easter Sunday,because for us they've been
consistently low numbers,whereas we've had strong
attendance Friday morning,Sunday morning.
What's your experience?
SPEAKER_02 (24:31):
Yeah, um I'm struggling to like remember
really the numbers of those.
Right.
But we've always just kept ournight service.
Yep.
SPEAKER_03 (24:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
In the time I've been there anyway.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:40):
Last year all of our services were up except for our
night service, which was down.
But I think that's because lastyear was right in the middle of
the school holidays, and we hadlots of our young adults away on
um camps, conferences, thingslike that in the school
holidays.
Whereas this year, Easter's atthe start of the school
holidays.
And so, but that doesn't reallylike we just we run with our
(25:03):
night service because it's umyou know, it's our night church
on a on a Sunday night.
We want to keep that um, itreaches the young adults
demographic.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
So that's that mission.
I'm gonna ask you guys to thinkabout that.
I was um uh I was struck a fewyears ago.
I'm pretty sure Hillsong didn'trun Easter Sunday night, do you
know?
And I thought, I'm sure they'rethinking about this, do you
know?
Um, but I'm not sure.
I'm I mean I don't know.
I just it's a I just thought itwas an interesting conversation
(25:35):
worth um asking.
Back to you, Peter.
You were you were runningthrough somber on Good Friday,
celebration Easter Sunday.
SPEAKER_00 (25:41):
Yeah, trying to collect my thoughts again.
No, no, no, definitelycelebration on on Sunday.
SPEAKER_01 (25:46):
And and so what are you are you looking to have a
testimony or what are youlooking to have in the gathering
that's special?
SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
Um I'd be I'd be trying to yeah, a testimony
could be really good.
Uh I I I I love that ideaactually.
Um, because it celebrates theidea that the risen Lord is
still changing lives and savingpeople.
Um, I think that's fantastic.
Uh, but I'd be looking at tryingto keep the services actually as
(26:14):
as as normal as possible so thatthose people who are coming
along visiting, um, when theycome back again, they're greeted
with something that they're usedto or that they've seen before.
So it's it's not a big surprise.
You're not trying to go, um, ohwell, I'm gonna go back to that
service because it's got um ajumping castle.
A jumping castle.
(26:35):
I'm I'm I'm gonna go back to it.
I know what to expect.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:40):
Oh well, I think there's a good there's a good
thing there.
It's like you don't want it tobe too different from your
normal Sunday because what theycome to is what they're going to
expect.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It can be you want it to be abit you want it to be special
and bigger, but not umdramatically.
SPEAKER_01 (26:55):
What we were saying before, um thoughtful targeting
for um people with kids andthoughtful targeting for people
without kids.
And I mean I found thatinteresting that you were
pitching Thursday night atpeople without kids and Friday
morning at people with kids.
Yeah, that's right.
And um how does it Do you havekids in the service at Easter?
(27:18):
Do you do it or do they um or dothey go out for the sermon?
Do they what what's the planthere?
Are you running a children'sprogramme at Easter or not?
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
Or Um We we have like an all-in service.
Like we'll have an all-inservice for um Easter Sunday
morning.
So ev everyone in and there'sstuff for the kids and there's
babies and there's lots of noiseand it's chaos, and but what it
what it um it shows people whoare coming in with their kids
who are visiting is this is achurch that loves children and
(27:47):
it's a safe space for them andit's a fun space for them.
And so um what are you doingthere, Brayden?
SPEAKER_02 (27:54):
We'll still run a kids program.
SPEAKER_01 (27:55):
Now, why?
Let's hear the argument.
I want you two to debate yourtopic, defend your bosses and
your scarf teams.
SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Yeah, well, if they watch this, they might be like,
that's not what we think,Braden, but we'll see.
SPEAKER_03 (28:09):
Yeah, well, we haven't had all the meetings
with the supercoming thing.
SPEAKER_02 (28:19):
I think that you can actually achieve the for the
visitor that you love children,you're on about kids um and
loving them and and caring forthem well, even still by having
an awesome program.
Because when they leave thatprogram, if they've had an
awesome time, they've met aleader they really get along
with, they've met um kids theirage that they really get along
with, they come back and go,Mom, dad, that was awesome.
(28:40):
You know, see the thing I made.
Um, and also I I'm big on thefact that we get to do a better
job at teaching our kids if wedo it in a way that's age
appropriate for them.
And that can and and that'sactually the same for our adults
as well.
We do a better job of hittingthe adults aware they're at if
we can do that in an ageappropriate way.
(29:01):
And sometimes when they're allin together, we are giving up
somewhere on one of those.
SPEAKER_01 (29:06):
Okay, Carlingford, why is Gladesville wrong?
SPEAKER_03 (29:09):
Uh well, no, Gladesville's not wrong.
And probably we we want ourprograms to be, you know, our
kids' programs um that run uhthroughout the school term to be
excellent and to you know be aconfidence builder for parents.
But um, I think one of thereasons maybe is so if you're
new to church and you bring,say, your two-year-old, your
three-year-old along, um,there's not that trust there
(29:31):
already that you'd hand them offto a kid's program.
And so by bringing them into theservice and actually seeing like
even from up front, the thetalk, the songs, everything, um,
is it's kind of like that um thePixar thing where it's like, you
know, it's for the for the kids,but it's kind of winking at the
parents and saying, you know,you you get this as well.
SPEAKER_02 (29:51):
And do you tell your people, you know, that that's
the like this is going to be thethe vibe of this Sunday morning?
SPEAKER_03 (29:58):
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (29:59):
So if you want your say uh non-Christian spouse to
come along, maybe come to adifferent one.
Is that how Um Because my thingthe the thought behind my
question there is well, if I'mbringing a non-Christian spouse
along to church and they seethat there's a lot of
kid-friendly stuff, they'remaybe switching off and already
thinking, well, this isn'treally for me.
Yeah, and that might lower theconfidence in the person who's
(30:21):
brought them along.
SPEAKER_03 (30:22):
Yeah, I mean, um that hasn't really been our
experience.
Like people who come along evenwithout kids, if they're
non-Christians and they'readults, they see that, oh, this
is a church that's about likefamilies, that's great, and they
can appreciate, and I thinkthey're you know often mature
enough to be like, oh yeah, Iget it.
I get that this is they want tobe great for families and kids.
(30:44):
But um, we do make it reallyclear that it will be like a
family-friendly all-in serviceso that if someone is thinking
that way, if someone's like, Oh,I've got someone who I really I
just want them to have like uh asermon that's targeted at
adults, they can bring them tothe night service or the
afternoon service.
SPEAKER_00 (31:00):
But but something, yeah, so something really
interesting is is that um youknow I was gonna get you to be
the deciding voice.
Also a different opinion.
Um classic, and uh but somethingthat we're we're hitting on um
is that church is very differentto society, and we we we all
(31:21):
come from from large-ish Sydneychurches for for the small
church, there's there's a lot ofencouragement in this as well.
Like you don't need to put on umI I don't think you you need to
put on a lot of fancy programsor change too much over Easter.
Your people will do so much forum for showcasing the um you
(31:45):
know we we you know the gospelis preached during the sermon
and and we encourage each otherwith it, we sing it, but then
after the service, we live itout, we we live out the gospel
to each other.
And when visitors come along andwhen they've you know they've
tasted what secularism bringsand it doesn't taste good, when
they come into our church andthey see a community of people
(32:07):
who love each other with a witha a supernatural kind of love,
despite differences.
At our church, we've got peoplewho who love Trump, who don't
love Trump across all thepolitical spectrum, but united
in their love for Christ andlove for each other.
When they see that, and this isthis is like the testimony of
(32:27):
people who've come, when theysee the church living out the
love of Christ, that is atestimony to itself that there
is something that there issomething out there that has
changed these people.
And so um programs are reallygood because they can actively
target demographics uh a lotmore sharply.
But for a for a small churchthat's thinking through how do I
(32:49):
prepare for Easter, getting yourpeople on board excited about
newcomers coming, um, you know,welcome teams firing and and
that sort of thing, gettingpeople excited about the fact
that there's going to benewcomers and the church
community living out the way itdoes in love is a great
testament and very powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
I I'm very interested in what you said,
Pip, but I'm um I I've beentrying to process my own
feelings as as you two weredebating before.
And I think I'd admit, I'd Ithink I'd need to admit that I
feel inept at speaking at theall-age service.
(33:31):
You know, I'm I think I'm abetter than average communicator
to the adult audience, but Ireally don't feel competent
holding that multi-generationalaudience.
And so and and so I think whydid I like what Braden was
saying?
And I actually thought it'sactually got to do with my own
(33:52):
inabilities.
Anyway, that was that'sinteresting.
I was processing it.
It's it's interesting.
But you may have a really giftedperson who can communicate to
the all-age.
SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
Well, so on on Easter Sunday morning, our
senior minister will be umdressed in a clown suit?
Not quite.
Well, so so he he and our umkids minister, they've got a
very they're they're verydifferent people, but they've
got this great chemistry on onstage because in a way our
senior minister sort of playsplays the the straight man and
(34:24):
is very and you know iscommunicating to adults
primarily.
Yeah.
And our kids minister is justfantastic at like speaking to
kids and even really young kidsand getting them engaged,
getting them involved, and atthe same time the adults in the
room stay engaged.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
And so having two people up the front, so it's two
people up the front, and it'sworking off the particular gifts
of the particular people thatyou've got.
That's right.
And so, I mean, we can argue thein principle, but it's actually
whether or not you've got thegifts to pull it off.
That's a that's part of it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:57):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's even true if youdon't have kids in and thinking
about who the main preacher isfor the different services, or
if you're gonna have the sameperson the whole of Sunday, same
person.
It's probably the way mostpeople would end up going.
SPEAKER_01 (35:10):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (35:12):
You you probably want someone on your team who's
a bit more gifted at theevangelistic style as well.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
Yeah.
Thank you so much for coming in.
That's been super helpful and uhwill prompt some really good
discussion in our team.
I'm taking lots of churches.
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
Now I know what to tell my team about.
SPEAKER_01 (35:30):
Our guests on The Pastor's Heart, Pete Blake.
He's from St.
Stephen's Normanhurst in Sydney,Pip Witheridge from St.
Paul's, Carlingford, and BradenLucas from Christchurch in
Gladesville.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we'll look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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