February 9, 2026 • 31 mins
We’re just three weeks away from what may prove to be one of the most significant gatherings of Anglican leaders in a generation — as bishops, clergy and lay representatives from across the world meet in Abuja to chart the future of global Anglicanism.
We preview the conference being led by Global Anglican Futures Conference (GAFCON), and explore how its proposed “reordering” of the Anglican Communion compares with the approach of the Global South Fellowship of Anglicans.
With the centre of Anglican Christianity now firmly in the majority world, the conference in Abjua, Nigeria brings together a broad representative cross-section of the global church.
Our guests are Paul Donison, General Secretary of the GAFCON movement, and Gafcon Operations Manager Jodie McNeill, who is helping coordinate the gathering.
The Pastor’s Heart coverage of the Global Anglians Abuja conference is brought to you by Anglican Aid.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Compelled by Christ's love, Anglican aid is
working to see the grace of Godoverflowing to a world in need.
We enable Christians to lovetheir neighbors with practical
aid while training churchleaders to help keep the Bible
at the heart of our globalAnglican communion.
By addressing both physical andspiritual needs, we bring help
(00:21):
and hope to the world's poorestnations.
Visit anglicanaid.org to helpstrengthen churches and
transform communities.
SPEAKER_07 (01:18):
Pulling together that big conference in three
weeks' time.
Well, the epicenter of AnglicanChristianity has shifted from
Canterbury to Africa.
And Paul Donison, it is on inthree weeks' time.
SPEAKER_04 (01:32):
It is on, and I think you're absolutely right,
Dominic.
This could be one of the mostinfluential moments, you know,
since the Reformation forAnglicans, for English
Christians, uh, within thatProtestant tradition.
Um this is a moment where we'rehaving hundreds of bishops
around the world, uh, somewives, some clergy, some laity
gathering, and we're reallygoing to sit and listen.
(01:54):
It's it's it's kind of an Acts15 moment, at least that's what
we're praying for.
The church coming together incouncil under the governance of
the Holy Spirit to say how arewe supposed to move forward in
mission.
SPEAKER_07 (02:04):
Now you've said two things new in that sentence.
You said not just bishops, butalso clergy and laity.
And and so we're approachingsomething of a synodical moment.
And uh and also just the idea ofdeliberation for in the past,
the GAFCON conferences have beenmore plenary and then a summary
(02:25):
statement from an internalcommittee.
Talk to me about those two newbits of information.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_04 (02:31):
Yeah, it's uh it's a whole new uh not new direction,
I would say, for our Gconferences, our mini
conferences between the bigevery five-year conferences to
include now not just bishops butclergy and laity.
And it creates a lot of extrawork for uh the operations team,
more visas, more uh invitationsto send out, more bursaries to
fundraise.
But it really is meant to be agathering of the whole of the
(02:53):
church.
SPEAKER_07 (02:53):
So I was just saying over at the year off shop where
you guys were grabbing lunch,that uh he has learned more
about the Nigerian visa systemthan he ever wanted to uh it's
it's it's incredible.
SPEAKER_04 (03:03):
And there's it's it's an exercise in in uh in a
lot of prayer.
And uh so so thankful for thefaithful work of the global team
and the Nigerian local teamthat's doing so much work to
host us well.
But this idea that we're gonnahave a real sense that the
church is not just bishops, notjust primates, but clergy and
laity together.
And as we meet together incouncil, then actually having a
(03:26):
consultation, not just listeningto plenary talks and breaking
into provinces like we have inour big conferences and talking
through statements, which havebeen very good and very helpful
and have felt like there's aconsultation piece, but this is
an ongoing consultationthroughout the conference.
So after the plenary talks,there'll be opportunity for
groups to break away, talk,deliberate, pray, send feedback
(03:49):
into a statement committee.
And so by the time we actuallyhave a statement for the
conference, our hope is thewhole of the church together
will have can consulted, uhdeliberated, uh prayerfully
discerned what the Spirit issaying to the church.
SPEAKER_07 (04:03):
And there's not just uh proposed that a statement
would come out of this, but um alead primate.
SPEAKER_04 (04:09):
Well, one of the things we said in the Macquarie
meeting, uh the Martyr's DayStatement.
That's right.
Macquarie meeting uh in OctoberOctober 16th, the Martyr's Day
statement.
One of the things that came outof that, uh a statement that
said a whole bunch of thingsthat we've said for many, many
years in GAFCON.
Um nothing new per se, but maybewith a little more uh of a of a
(04:29):
unity to these statements in onedocument, and with a bit more of
a forward-thinking edge to it,saying it's the time is now, the
future is here.
But one of the statements wasaround ultimate leadership for
the global church, a globalleadership for a global church
instead of a Canterbury colonialleadership for a global church.
The epicenter of Christianityhas moved away from the West
(04:50):
into Africa, Southeast Asia,Latin America.
But this language of Primates inParis, that the chairman of the
Primates Council coming out ofthis conference would be, using
that loaded language, the firstamong equals.
Uh, and we have leaned in thatdirection, but we've never
actually said this is the time.
And so this is the hope and theplan for G26 is that all the
(05:13):
primates of the communion thatgather that can sign the
Jerusalem Declaration that isthat we're with GAFCON, we're
with this global Anglicancommunion moving forward, uh,
that they'll together elect aPrimus in Paris.
And the chairman will then bethat global leader uh to hold
together the gathering of thechurch.
SPEAKER_07 (05:31):
Let's come back to that a moment in a moment.
Uh Jody, take us through theprogram for the week because um
I mean people have heard aboutit, all that kind of thing
that's gonna be on, but it'sjust kind of it's gonna be on.
What's the next line?
SPEAKER_05 (05:44):
Well, we're up to version 17 of the program at the
moment, and uh, and I I'm I'mthinking it's gonna have a two
at the front of it by the timewe've finished it.
It it is a moving target in thatsense.
Uh the main programme begins onthe Tuesday evening with an
opening ceremony uh and anopening service.
The next three days will be inthe um uh at the St.
(06:05):
Matthias House, which is themain church house of the whole
of the Church of Nigeria,Anglican Communion.
They've got a wonderfulauditorium there that we'll be
based at.
And essentially each day we'llstart with morning prayer, the
Bible talk.
Then the teachers for the Bibletalk?
SPEAKER_04 (06:21):
Yeah, we've got Archbishop Eggbunu, Archbishop
Fape, and then we've got RichardCondy.
Richard Condy from Tasmania.
SPEAKER_07 (06:27):
Two Nigerians and an Australian.
SPEAKER_04 (06:28):
Yeah, for the for the morning Bible talks.
SPEAKER_05 (06:30):
Okay, that's right.
And then uh on the on theWednesday, we're going to have
uh the first session will bethree speakers, followed by a
consultation session, thenfollowed by three speakers and a
consultation session.
Then the next day we'll have asimilar kind of structure.
So we'll end up having twelvedifferent speakers.
That's correct.
(06:50):
From all around the world.
SPEAKER_07 (06:51):
That's right.
What kind of topics?
Yeah.
And then I I think you're sayingtwelve presenters that then spur
us on into discussions aboutthat area.
SPEAKER_05 (07:00):
That's right.
I mean, essentially what we'vedone is we've taken the
statement from October 16 andwe've broken it up into the 12
different parts.
So there's the eight points, andthen there's the opening and
closing section.
And essentially what the plan isis that we'll be expounding this
statement and then presenting itto the group.
And then the group has anopportunity to then think about
(07:22):
it and re f and reflect backprayerfully and as a group,
everybody in that room will havea voice to be able to then say
this is how we are reacting to astatement that came out several
months ago and has set thefoundation for the whole of the
event.
SPEAKER_04 (07:36):
Aaron Ross Powell And the idea which is exciting
is at the end of the Marter's Astatement it says basically come
to Abuja, come to G26.
And we will work out all theparticulars, we'll work out the
future, uh, we will discerntogether.
And that was the end of thestatement.
People have sort of misread thestatement, at least initially,
as a sort of a final statement,a definitive statement.
(07:59):
That's it.
This is this is what GAFCON hassaid.
No, what the statement says iscome to Abuja, come talk about
it.
Let's have a consultation.
SPEAKER_07 (08:05):
So what's the, I mean, at least hypothetically,
it could be that somethingcompletely different comes out.
SPEAKER_04 (08:11):
Well, exactly.
The the the hope will be therethere could be things that we
said uh that could be saidbetter.
There's some things we said thatmight be uh pulled out.
There might be, I'm sure, thingswe didn't say that need to be
said.
And so the hope is that by theend of the conference, we'll
have a statement that will havehad, as Jody said, the the
foundation will have been laidby the uh the Macquarie
(08:31):
statement, by the the MartyrsDay statement.
But this will then be a trulyglobal, consulted and
consultative kind of statementthat comes out that says here's
where we're going.
And it can be very excitingbecause it will say that the
global church really is speakingtogether.
SPEAKER_07 (08:48):
Um now uh I want to take you back to Kigali.
And I mean, for me it kind offeels like what we're gonna do
in or what you're gonna do inAbuja is what I wanted to happen
in Kigali.
Um and that I you took me rightto this point of this was about
(09:09):
to happen in Kigali, and then wedidn't quite get there.
Do you agree with that read,Paul?
SPEAKER_04 (09:16):
Absolutely.
I remember being in Kigali andand feeling at the end of the
yeah.
I mean, you were a delegate likeme at that point.
Yeah, and I felt at the end ofthe conference, I mean, always
just the joy of being together,these these large global
conferences.
My first one was in Nairobi in2013, and then Jerusalem in 18.
Kigali 23, I felt like we had somuch momentum.
And then by the time we got tothe end of the conference, there
(09:40):
was a great expectation thatalmost the next day there'd be a
new set of statements from theprimates or or or you know,
there'd be there'd be a majornews release.
And instead, we all sort ofwaited.
And waited.
And waited and waited.
And and I think that's whatGAFCON uh the leadership of
GAFCON.
When I say the leadership ofGAFCON, I mean not just the
(10:01):
primates, our chairmanArchbishop Umbanda, our vice
chairman Miguel Ochoa, and allthe primates, but also then all
of the uh guarantors and thetrustees and the regional
secretaries and the branchchairs.
I mean, we are actually quite alarge council when we meet.
The together since 23, there'sbeen this growing concern that
(10:21):
what was expected and evenpromised in Kigali hasn't really
moved forward yet.
And I think that sense that thethe the resetting the communion
is an urgent task, is what wesaid in the in the statement.
And then it seemed like somesort of put the brakes on
somewhat, or there was not asthe same kind of urgency.
So I think by the time we got toMacquarie in October of last
(10:43):
year, that was the chairman ofGAFCON saying, I need to have a
consultation to know where arewe moving?
Are we moving forward?
Are are we going to take thisreset of the communion with a
sense of urgency?
And and I think Or just kick itdown the road.
Or just keep keep havingmeetings, keep talking, keep
walking together, which ofcourse is the old-fashioned
canterbury tactic.
So that's part of it.
SPEAKER_07 (11:03):
Let me take us back to and what I've got is a couple
of little videos that I justwant to play.
Uh interviews that I did um inthe backstage uh forum that we
were doing at Kigali.
One with James Wong at the endof the conference, uh Archbishop
um from the uh Indian Ocean, anduh one with Justin Badia Rama uh
(11:28):
from Primate of South Sudan andChair of the Global South.
Let's just watch them and thenwe'll talk about going forward.
That's great.
SPEAKER_09 (11:37):
Um, yesterday you may be aware of the primates of
GAFCON and Global South cametogether, and um we agreed now
that we have to be thinkingabout love and unity within the
steering of Global South and thePrimate Council of the Gafkan
(12:00):
movement.
So already we agreed that we areto come together.
And this is why in my sermonthis morning, I also preach
about the need of comingtogether in love, but especially
the need of coming together toconfirm the knowledge of the
Bible.
(12:21):
The place of a Bible in us, itis a Bible which will bind us
together.
So the word of God is soimportant that we have to decide
who we are and to be one in God.
And um, I think later um in thedeclaration of GAFCON, this is
(12:41):
going to be mentioned, and Ithank God for the wisdom he has
bestowed the primates um ofGAFCON and Global South to come
together and to start a journeyof sharing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
You are the chair for Global South, and uh one
would like to ask what has beenthe encouragement from GAFCON?
SPEAKER_03 (13:01):
Encouragement we receive from GAFCOM.
GAFCO is gifted in mission, inenabling people, renew their
faith.
That's something that gives usencouragement and gives us hope
for the whole Americancommunity.
And we thank God for Gafcom.
(13:21):
What are many excitements of theweek here this week for you?
The excitement now comingtogether, meeting friends from
all around the world.
That is a great encouragementand excitement because it
reminds me that I am not alone.
There are still thousands ofbrothers and sisters around the
(13:44):
world who are firm um thegospel.
SPEAKER_06 (13:50):
And he said one of the thrills for him has been the
sense of genuinely walkingtogether with other brothers and
sisters um uh in Christ.
SPEAKER_03 (14:02):
That is uh that is great encouragement as we walk
together, and then you'reencouraged that on this journey
I'm not alone.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
What do you see in the future between the GAFCON
and the Global South?
SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
GAFCOM and Global South two institutions that uh
overlap and what they do, and uhin the future it is my hope and
prayer that the two may becomeone.
SPEAKER_06 (14:37):
There was a a moment in the um, I'm sure I'm sure you
were in the primates meeting orthe bishop's meeting at the
time, but in the um the laityand clergy auditorium where we
were yesterday afternoon, umwhen they were taking input
ideas for the statement, onedelegate from the floor said um
something similar to that, andthere was big applause around
(14:58):
the auditorium.
And uh Richard Condy, who waschairing the meeting, said, uh,
look, I just want you to knowI'm gonna take that feedback
back to the uh to the primatesand to the to the bishop's
group.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
We are planning for that, we are dreaming that, and
we are moving towards that.
And uh it is all our prayer thatwe will see something new within
the Anglican Communion in thenearest future.
SPEAKER_09 (15:29):
The good thing is primates of global south,
primates of GAFCO, we are comingtogether.
Um, and uh the vision um we aregoing to develop it will be
approved by the assembly of uhglobal south and by the primary
council of uh GAFCON movement.
(15:51):
So we are going to meet togetherand we are going to move in a
direction that we will agree.
Perhaps a bit of a timeline.
Um uh definitely we will have toagree before the next uh
assembly of global south, whichwill be in May next year.
SPEAKER_08 (16:14):
I wonder if I can ask.
Um, and and this this idea ofunity between uh GAFCON and the
Global South has been a bigtheme of this conference and
quite clearly a great desire ofthe delegates.
It was almost we're almostwaiting for all the primers to
meet together on Tuesdayafternoon, I think it it was.
Um, and you're obviously in aunique position being in both
(16:35):
those groups.
I'll be allowed to ask what wasthe what was the mood and the
sentiment in that meeting?
SPEAKER_09 (16:42):
Love friendship, focus on the future.
You know, if you look at thedifferent primates, the green
chair of GAFCO is the treasurerof global south.
The president of uh globalsouth, he's also a primate of uh
(17:05):
the Gafkan movement.
So um uh we are alreadytogether, we need to define the
structure for the future.
And the the definition, the newdefinition of the Anglican
Communion, then it's going to beratified by the Assembly of
Global South and by the um uhPrime Minister Committee of uh
(17:28):
Gafcon.
SPEAKER_07 (17:30):
So, Paul Donison, you've just seen those two
interviews, one with James Wongand one with uh uh Archbishop
Badiya Rama.
Uh what's your reaction lookingback in 2026 to that those
comments at the end of theKigali Conference 2023?
SPEAKER_04 (17:47):
Yeah, we're getting closer and closer to the
three-year mark, aren't we?
I mean and I'll just say that II think with great intentions,
and I even with all theengagement I've had on these
issues, working with GSFA and uhyou know really trying to see
this uh union come together.
I was one of the delegates onthe floor that was pooting and
(18:08):
hollering pretty loudly when Iheard that.
I thought, yes, bring thistogether.
Uh because we've always saidthat the the the revisionists
are actually, ironically,unified and the and the
conservatives, the orthodox, areare often divided within within
the church.
You know, the the revisionists,although they they'll divide
over all kinds of things, butthey are sort of unified around
Canterbury and the oldstructures, uh the failed
(18:29):
structures, the the failedinstruments.
Um but the Orthodox aren'talways unified.
And and so that's why I thinkwe're that.
SPEAKER_07 (18:36):
Um the problem's really clear, it's what our
response should be.
Precisely.
And that's where the differentstrategies with each other.
SPEAKER_04 (18:43):
And the strategies emerge differently.
And I would just say I wasencouraged then.
I'm still encouraged now.
Uh I think we've made attempts.
Uh they have not yet come tofruition of really seeing
collaboration, that the overlapof what GSFA and GAFCON are
doing is still there.
Because James Wong gave us areally tight timeline there.
Absolutely, absolutely.
(19:04):
And I was at that uh firstassembly for for GSFA as an
observer uh in Cairo, uh inAlexandria, and and we were
hoping that there would be allthis sort of movement towards
unity, and there justunfortunately wasn't.
I will say at the ground levelof coming out of the floor of
the actual meeting inAlexandria, there was this push
(19:25):
for a motion that was almostforcing the same question back
from Kigali, saying, let'sactually get everyone working
together.
And you can see that there wasdynamics.
SPEAKER_07 (19:34):
People wanted it in the grassroots level south.
SPEAKER_04 (19:37):
And I think that's been that's been key throughout
this whole last almost threeyears has been at the grassroots
level, in the pews, in thechurches, uh, in most of the
dioceses around the world,they've said, this would be
great.
We need to make this happen,come together.
Um, I would say that forGAFCON's part, as we move
forward with this assembly, uh,this gathering, this G26
(19:58):
conference, um, everyone'sinvited.
The Orthodox.
If you can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, you're invited.
If you're a primate, you'reinvited.
Come, be in the room, be be atthe table, be in the room where
it happens, as they say.
Um and and and if we're going inthe wrong direction, to quote
Hamilton, um, you know, and uhthe Canadian who's a newly
minted American can quoteHamilton.
But the but the truth is thatuh, you know, if there's
(20:20):
something that that we're sayingin the in the Macquarie
statement, in the Mardi Saystatement that is unhelpful,
well, be in the room and let'stalk about it.
And if there's things we can saybetter, um, then let's have
those conversations.
So I really think the G26, withthat sense of urgency, is I
think the moment.
Uh I think Archbishop James Wongwas right that there was a sense
(20:42):
of urgency.
It didn't quite lay out on thetimetable we'd expect.
And this is often our case.
You know, the Lord's got adifferent timetable than we do.
Um so he thought it would bewithin a year.
Maybe now it'll be about threeyears in Abuja 2026.
Let's see the real Orthodoxfamily come together.
And and that would be the hope.
SPEAKER_07 (21:01):
Now, um, a few weeks ago, the Global South put out a
statement.
They didn't interact with whatyou're doing, but they did seem
to be laying out a well, theywere laying out a different
trajectory for it.
Yeah.
How have the conversations beengoing about these two different
trajectories between the globalsouth, predominantly based
(21:23):
around Asia, and the um uh theGAFCON where the center of
gravity is not is is Africa?
SPEAKER_04 (21:29):
Aaron Powell Well and I think part of the part of
what's been happening is youtalk to different people and you
hear very different things.
I mean, so there's some whowould would see what the GFCFA
put out as a statement recentlythat sounds like they're plowing
ahead with a bit of a differentdirection.
They're seem to be focused moreon uh resetting the communion
according to Canterbury uhstructures.
(21:52):
For example, the Yaskifo,Nairobi, Cairo uh reports.
Um that these will be themechanisms by which they reset
the community.
Communion.
And I think within GAFCON, theresponse has been, well, no,
we're not going to look toCanterbury Strike.
So I think there's some thatwould say it looks like GSFA and
GAFCON have got very differenttrajectories.
(22:13):
Others, though, because we dohave great overlap, as um
Archbishop Body says in thevideo along with Archbishop
James Wong, the overlap isenormous.
So you talk to differentprimates who go to both sets of
meetings, and some of them areactually quite optimistic,
saying, actually we're we'rewe're much more unified than it
seems.
SPEAKER_07 (22:30):
So let's do this together.
We've got the same theologicalconcerns.
SPEAKER_04 (22:36):
You were you remember it.
I mean, you were you wereheavily involved, Jody, in the
in the leadership behind thescenes there in Kigali.
I mean, you remember thatexcitement.
SPEAKER_05 (22:44):
Absolutely, that's right.
And and I think that theexpectation that James Wong had
for 2024 is what we're thinkingnow for 2026.
Now there's been that two-yeargap.
And it is a little bit differentin that we've come to this
moment where we've said the theprimates have said through the
statement last year, we have gotto be at the point where we are
not engaging with theinstruments of the communion
(23:05):
anymore.
Because the time has come afterall of these moments of
discussions, the call forrepentance, it's vital that an
action actually happens.
And so continuing to engage withthe instruments as we had in the
past is no longer the strategy.
That's right.
And so we there is there is a apoint of difference there in
(23:27):
that GAFCON is not saying we'regoing to be engaging with the
Canterbury statements and theYascafo and and things like
that, the the Nairobi um Cairoum statement and so on.
We're saying when we're notconcerned about who is going to
be the the the moving Archbishopof Canterbury or whoever it is
that's not the president of thecommunion, that kind of stuff.
(23:48):
That's not the that's not theconcern for us.
The time has come, and that isthat is what really in so many
ways led Archbishop Mbanda to tocall together the meeting last
year to say we have got to dosomething.
What are we going to do?
SPEAKER_07 (24:02):
Now I'm imagining there are still some primates
perhaps sitting on the fence uhabout whether or not they'll go
to Abuja, is that right?
SPEAKER_04 (24:14):
Well, we we communicate.
I mean Jody's team is doing anamazing job sending out
invitations, and of course, allof us are making phone calls and
talking with everyone.
It's a global church, and peoplehave crazy schedules, and
they've got conf conflicts, andthey've got um all kinds of
different reasons why they canor can't be there.
But so we're hoping that'simportant.
Well, that's the hope.
So we're continuing to pray thatwe really do get the right
(24:37):
people.
The Lord will decide who needsto be in the room.
We hope that it's uh as broad arepresentation of the Orthodox
Anglican Bible-believingcommunion as we can find.
SPEAKER_07 (24:46):
Aaron Ross Powell And my sense is that even if the
primate's not with you fromquite a number of prov
provinces, um a number of seniorleaders are.
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:54):
That's right.
And that's what's what's what'sencouraging.
I mean, again, you want to talkabout the the number of requests
you're getting on a daily basis?
SPEAKER_05 (25:00):
Absolutely.
And and it may be that the theprimate may not have the
intention at this stage ofattending, not clear yet.
But certainly we are getting onon a daily basis, I'm getting
bishops diocesans emailingsaying, can I get an invitation,
please?
I want to be there.
I think it's really important tobe in the room.
And I think I think related tothis is that there's a I I
(25:21):
suspect some people think thatif I turn up at a bouja, I'm
signing off on everything, thatI'm completely sold on the whole
movement and the wholedirection.
But we are wanting people to bein the room to influence it, to
actually have a voice in it, sothat there can be that sense of
um it's not just a signed-offstatement, it's it's a work in
(25:42):
progress.
And so if you want to be a partof it, you want to be a part of
the global Anglican Communion,show up at G26.
But even if you don't, that'snot the end either.
SPEAKER_04 (25:51):
That's right.
If you can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, which has really
been since 2008, ourcontemporary Anglican confession
that says holding together theBible as the center of what it
means to be Anglican, you know,read within the Anglican
formularies, right?
This understanding that I thinkI think the JD is still
brilliant.
I get my parishioners who wantto become members of the church
to sign the JD.
I mean, I just say this is Whenthis is using acronyms here,
(26:12):
this is.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right, that's right,that's right.
Um, but the for the JerusalemDeclaration being this very
clear confessional statement umthat people can get around.
So we're saying you do need tobe able to sign the Jerusalem
Declaration to come.
In fact, there's a button youhave to press on the
registration page that says doyou affirm yes?
Um, but at the end of the day,though, we want the global
(26:33):
church to gather to pray, tocall upon the Holy Spirit to
guide and lead.
Um, and we can't set atrajectory together if we're not
all together.
Uh and but we will move forward.
Again, the urgency, and this isI think the key, the urgency
drives us forward.
SPEAKER_07 (26:49):
And let's come back to this um uh person who would
end up being the first amongequals primate.
Um uh I and others have been uhscorn scornful of the process in
electing the Archbishop ofCanterbury.
Um but uh how do we make surethis election is a good election
that lots of us are going to beable to say, yeah, that was a
(27:12):
good process?
And will it be contested?
SPEAKER_04 (27:15):
I mean I think the the challenge will be that as
the primates gather, I mean it'sthe whole church gathering, it's
the bishops and it's clergy andlady, but the primates uh will
will be gathering beforehand.
SPEAKER_07 (27:27):
Just the primates who do the electing.
SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Well, that's that's been our way in the past.
I mean, GAFCON has been aprimate-led movement
specifically.
Again, like I said, the primatescouncil, what includes the
advisors, the guarantors, thetrustees, means you've got
clergy, laity, bishops who arenot primates all gathered.
Um and so they're all speakinginto this, they're all part of
the conversation.
But traditionally, we've had theprimates vote.
Um, we're not suggesting yetthat we start using the
(27:52):
synodical language.
And I'm I'm only cautious in thelanguage because when we say
synodical as opposed toconciliar, synodical assumes
usually a constitutionalprocess.
People assume, oh, well, we II'm part of a synod, we have a
I'm part of a diocese, we have asynod, or I'm just by eligible.
You know, and therefore byhouses and people start arguing,
and the canon lawyers are in themix of all that.
(28:14):
Those are helpful conversations.
Um, but I don't think we'rethere yet.
And and many of us would say wedon't really need a global synod
in the sense that we don't needthe global church sending in a
sort of a magisterial kind offormat from on high declarations
down through the ranks of thechurch.
We need a fellowship that is inin council with the church in
(28:35):
sort of the Acts 15 model, whichI said at the beginning, is is
we meet together, we're incouncil, the whole church is
heard, speaks.
How we work out the specifics ofvoting and all the rest will be
determined.
And so on the Prime MinisterParis question, this is
something that's gonna have tobe seen when we arrive.
We're gonna have to talk itthrough.
And yes, there'll always bedetractors that say you didn't
(28:56):
do it right.
I think the Crown nominationcommittee process is so bad that
in so many ways.
I'm not suggesting it's gonna beeasy to do this, but no matter
how we approach this, it's gotto be it's got to be better than
that.
I mean, we're we're actuallyapproaching this with you know
those who are actual globalleaders, uh representing the
(29:17):
whole of the church meetingtogether rather than this
carefully constructednominations committee that's
frankly full of a lot oftokenism of, oh, we'll get some
global leaders, but do theyreally represent the global
church?
They didn't.
They didn't.
And the decision they madeevidences that you know that the
Lambeth structures are stilltone-deaf to where the global
(29:37):
church is really at.
SPEAKER_07 (29:38):
Well, if you've got somebody appointed by the
British Prime Minister and theKing.
SPEAKER_04 (30:04):
His mother seemed to have a real heart for Jesus.
Absolutely.
But no one's assumed this.
And so to hear the the about tobecome Archbishop of Canterbury
suggests that the king is awonderful Christian man, I want
to say, can you recognize asolid Christian from another?
I mean, I hope that would bepart of the job description for
a leader of a global communion.
Amen.
unknown (30:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (30:25):
Uh thank you very much for coming in.
Paul Donison pulling punchesthis afternoon on the Pastors
Heart.
My name's Dominic Steele.
Our guests have been PaulDonison, the General Secretary
of GAFCON, and Jody McNeil, theoperations manager of GAFCON.
We're looking forward to beingwith you every day of the
GAFCONFRS in Nigeria and uhbringing you on the Pastor's
(30:48):
Heart uh the coverage.
You could go tothepastorsheart.net and
subscribe to our coverage, andwe'll send you an email every
day uh letting you know thevarious interviews that we've
done.
And then you can tune in andfollow the progress.
Thanks for joining us today.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Compelled by Christ's love, Anglican aid is
working to see the grace of Godoverflowing to a world in need.
We enable Christians to lovetheir neighbors with practical
aid while training churchleaders to help keep the Bible
at the heart of our globalAnglican communion.
By addressing both physical andspiritual needs, we bring help
(00:21):
and hope to the world's poorestnations.
Visit anglicanaid.org to helpstrengthen churches and
transform communities.
SPEAKER_07 (01:18):
Pulling together that big conference in three
weeks' time.
Well, the epicenter of AnglicanChristianity has shifted from
Canterbury to Africa.
And Paul Donison, it is on inthree weeks' time.
SPEAKER_04 (01:32):
It is on, and I think you're absolutely right,
Dominic.
This could be one of the mostinfluential moments, you know,
since the Reformation forAnglicans, for English
Christians, uh, within thatProtestant tradition.
Um this is a moment where we'rehaving hundreds of bishops
around the world, uh, somewives, some clergy, some laity
gathering, and we're reallygoing to sit and listen.
(01:54):
It's it's it's kind of an Acts15 moment, at least that's what
we're praying for.
The church coming together incouncil under the governance of
the Holy Spirit to say how arewe supposed to move forward in
mission.
SPEAKER_07 (02:04):
Now you've said two things new in that sentence.
You said not just bishops, butalso clergy and laity.
And and so we're approachingsomething of a synodical moment.
And uh and also just the idea ofdeliberation for in the past,
the GAFCON conferences have beenmore plenary and then a summary
(02:25):
statement from an internalcommittee.
Talk to me about those two newbits of information.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_04 (02:31):
Yeah, it's uh it's a whole new uh not new direction,
I would say, for our Gconferences, our mini
conferences between the bigevery five-year conferences to
include now not just bishops butclergy and laity.
And it creates a lot of extrawork for uh the operations team,
more visas, more uh invitationsto send out, more bursaries to
fundraise.
But it really is meant to be agathering of the whole of the
(02:53):
church.
SPEAKER_07 (02:53):
So I was just saying over at the year off shop where
you guys were grabbing lunch,that uh he has learned more
about the Nigerian visa systemthan he ever wanted to uh it's
it's it's incredible.
SPEAKER_04 (03:03):
And there's it's it's an exercise in in uh in a
lot of prayer.
And uh so so thankful for thefaithful work of the global team
and the Nigerian local teamthat's doing so much work to
host us well.
But this idea that we're gonnahave a real sense that the
church is not just bishops, notjust primates, but clergy and
laity together.
And as we meet together incouncil, then actually having a
(03:26):
consultation, not just listeningto plenary talks and breaking
into provinces like we have inour big conferences and talking
through statements, which havebeen very good and very helpful
and have felt like there's aconsultation piece, but this is
an ongoing consultationthroughout the conference.
So after the plenary talks,there'll be opportunity for
groups to break away, talk,deliberate, pray, send feedback
(03:49):
into a statement committee.
And so by the time we actuallyhave a statement for the
conference, our hope is thewhole of the church together
will have can consulted, uhdeliberated, uh prayerfully
discerned what the Spirit issaying to the church.
SPEAKER_07 (04:03):
And there's not just uh proposed that a statement
would come out of this, but um alead primate.
SPEAKER_04 (04:09):
Well, one of the things we said in the Macquarie
meeting, uh the Martyr's DayStatement.
That's right.
Macquarie meeting uh in OctoberOctober 16th, the Martyr's Day
statement.
One of the things that came outof that, uh a statement that
said a whole bunch of thingsthat we've said for many, many
years in GAFCON.
Um nothing new per se, but maybewith a little more uh of a of a
(04:29):
unity to these statements in onedocument, and with a bit more of
a forward-thinking edge to it,saying it's the time is now, the
future is here.
But one of the statements wasaround ultimate leadership for
the global church, a globalleadership for a global church
instead of a Canterbury colonialleadership for a global church.
The epicenter of Christianityhas moved away from the West
(04:50):
into Africa, Southeast Asia,Latin America.
But this language of Primates inParis, that the chairman of the
Primates Council coming out ofthis conference would be, using
that loaded language, the firstamong equals.
Uh, and we have leaned in thatdirection, but we've never
actually said this is the time.
And so this is the hope and theplan for G26 is that all the
(05:13):
primates of the communion thatgather that can sign the
Jerusalem Declaration that isthat we're with GAFCON, we're
with this global Anglicancommunion moving forward, uh,
that they'll together elect aPrimus in Paris.
And the chairman will then bethat global leader uh to hold
together the gathering of thechurch.
SPEAKER_07 (05:31):
Let's come back to that a moment in a moment.
Uh Jody, take us through theprogram for the week because um
I mean people have heard aboutit, all that kind of thing
that's gonna be on, but it'sjust kind of it's gonna be on.
What's the next line?
SPEAKER_05 (05:44):
Well, we're up to version 17 of the program at the
moment, and uh, and I I'm I'mthinking it's gonna have a two
at the front of it by the timewe've finished it.
It it is a moving target in thatsense.
Uh the main programme begins onthe Tuesday evening with an
opening ceremony uh and anopening service.
The next three days will be inthe um uh at the St.
(06:05):
Matthias House, which is themain church house of the whole
of the Church of Nigeria,Anglican Communion.
They've got a wonderfulauditorium there that we'll be
based at.
And essentially each day we'llstart with morning prayer, the
Bible talk.
Then the teachers for the Bibletalk?
SPEAKER_04 (06:21):
Yeah, we've got Archbishop Eggbunu, Archbishop
Fape, and then we've got RichardCondy.
Richard Condy from Tasmania.
SPEAKER_07 (06:27):
Two Nigerians and an Australian.
SPEAKER_04 (06:28):
Yeah, for the for the morning Bible talks.
SPEAKER_05 (06:30):
Okay, that's right.
And then uh on the on theWednesday, we're going to have
uh the first session will bethree speakers, followed by a
consultation session, thenfollowed by three speakers and a
consultation session.
Then the next day we'll have asimilar kind of structure.
So we'll end up having twelvedifferent speakers.
That's correct.
(06:50):
From all around the world.
SPEAKER_07 (06:51):
That's right.
What kind of topics?
Yeah.
And then I I think you're sayingtwelve presenters that then spur
us on into discussions aboutthat area.
SPEAKER_05 (07:00):
That's right.
I mean, essentially what we'vedone is we've taken the
statement from October 16 andwe've broken it up into the 12
different parts.
So there's the eight points, andthen there's the opening and
closing section.
And essentially what the plan isis that we'll be expounding this
statement and then presenting itto the group.
And then the group has anopportunity to then think about
(07:22):
it and re f and reflect backprayerfully and as a group,
everybody in that room will havea voice to be able to then say
this is how we are reacting to astatement that came out several
months ago and has set thefoundation for the whole of the
event.
SPEAKER_04 (07:36):
Aaron Ross Powell And the idea which is exciting
is at the end of the Marter's Astatement it says basically come
to Abuja, come to G26.
And we will work out all theparticulars, we'll work out the
future, uh, we will discerntogether.
And that was the end of thestatement.
People have sort of misread thestatement, at least initially,
as a sort of a final statement,a definitive statement.
(07:59):
That's it.
This is this is what GAFCON hassaid.
No, what the statement says iscome to Abuja, come talk about
it.
Let's have a consultation.
SPEAKER_07 (08:05):
So what's the, I mean, at least hypothetically,
it could be that somethingcompletely different comes out.
SPEAKER_04 (08:11):
Well, exactly.
The the the hope will be therethere could be things that we
said uh that could be saidbetter.
There's some things we said thatmight be uh pulled out.
There might be, I'm sure, thingswe didn't say that need to be
said.
And so the hope is that by theend of the conference, we'll
have a statement that will havehad, as Jody said, the the
foundation will have been laidby the uh the Macquarie
(08:31):
statement, by the the MartyrsDay statement.
But this will then be a trulyglobal, consulted and
consultative kind of statementthat comes out that says here's
where we're going.
And it can be very excitingbecause it will say that the
global church really is speakingtogether.
SPEAKER_07 (08:48):
Um now uh I want to take you back to Kigali.
And I mean, for me it kind offeels like what we're gonna do
in or what you're gonna do inAbuja is what I wanted to happen
in Kigali.
Um and that I you took me rightto this point of this was about
(09:09):
to happen in Kigali, and then wedidn't quite get there.
Do you agree with that read,Paul?
SPEAKER_04 (09:16):
Absolutely.
I remember being in Kigali andand feeling at the end of the
yeah.
I mean, you were a delegate likeme at that point.
Yeah, and I felt at the end ofthe conference, I mean, always
just the joy of being together,these these large global
conferences.
My first one was in Nairobi in2013, and then Jerusalem in 18.
Kigali 23, I felt like we had somuch momentum.
And then by the time we got tothe end of the conference, there
(09:40):
was a great expectation thatalmost the next day there'd be a
new set of statements from theprimates or or or you know,
there'd be there'd be a majornews release.
And instead, we all sort ofwaited.
And waited.
And waited and waited.
And and I think that's whatGAFCON uh the leadership of
GAFCON.
When I say the leadership ofGAFCON, I mean not just the
(10:01):
primates, our chairmanArchbishop Umbanda, our vice
chairman Miguel Ochoa, and allthe primates, but also then all
of the uh guarantors and thetrustees and the regional
secretaries and the branchchairs.
I mean, we are actually quite alarge council when we meet.
The together since 23, there'sbeen this growing concern that
(10:21):
what was expected and evenpromised in Kigali hasn't really
moved forward yet.
And I think that sense that thethe the resetting the communion
is an urgent task, is what wesaid in the in the statement.
And then it seemed like somesort of put the brakes on
somewhat, or there was not asthe same kind of urgency.
So I think by the time we got toMacquarie in October of last
(10:43):
year, that was the chairman ofGAFCON saying, I need to have a
consultation to know where arewe moving?
Are we moving forward?
Are are we going to take thisreset of the communion with a
sense of urgency?
And and I think Or just kick itdown the road.
Or just keep keep havingmeetings, keep talking, keep
walking together, which ofcourse is the old-fashioned
canterbury tactic.
So that's part of it.
SPEAKER_07 (11:03):
Let me take us back to and what I've got is a couple
of little videos that I justwant to play.
Uh interviews that I did um inthe backstage uh forum that we
were doing at Kigali.
One with James Wong at the endof the conference, uh Archbishop
um from the uh Indian Ocean, anduh one with Justin Badia Rama uh
(11:28):
from Primate of South Sudan andChair of the Global South.
Let's just watch them and thenwe'll talk about going forward.
That's great.
SPEAKER_09 (11:37):
Um, yesterday you may be aware of the primates of
GAFCON and Global South cametogether, and um we agreed now
that we have to be thinkingabout love and unity within the
steering of Global South and thePrimate Council of the Gafkan
(12:00):
movement.
So already we agreed that we areto come together.
And this is why in my sermonthis morning, I also preach
about the need of comingtogether in love, but especially
the need of coming together toconfirm the knowledge of the
Bible.
(12:21):
The place of a Bible in us, itis a Bible which will bind us
together.
So the word of God is soimportant that we have to decide
who we are and to be one in God.
And um, I think later um in thedeclaration of GAFCON, this is
(12:41):
going to be mentioned, and Ithank God for the wisdom he has
bestowed the primates um ofGAFCON and Global South to come
together and to start a journeyof sharing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
You are the chair for Global South, and uh one
would like to ask what has beenthe encouragement from GAFCON?
SPEAKER_03 (13:01):
Encouragement we receive from GAFCOM.
GAFCO is gifted in mission, inenabling people, renew their
faith.
That's something that gives usencouragement and gives us hope
for the whole Americancommunity.
And we thank God for Gafcom.
(13:21):
What are many excitements of theweek here this week for you?
The excitement now comingtogether, meeting friends from
all around the world.
That is a great encouragementand excitement because it
reminds me that I am not alone.
There are still thousands ofbrothers and sisters around the
(13:44):
world who are firm um thegospel.
SPEAKER_06 (13:50):
And he said one of the thrills for him has been the
sense of genuinely walkingtogether with other brothers and
sisters um uh in Christ.
SPEAKER_03 (14:02):
That is uh that is great encouragement as we walk
together, and then you'reencouraged that on this journey
I'm not alone.
SPEAKER_00 (14:12):
What do you see in the future between the GAFCON
and the Global South?
SPEAKER_03 (14:18):
GAFCOM and Global South two institutions that uh
overlap and what they do, and uhin the future it is my hope and
prayer that the two may becomeone.
SPEAKER_06 (14:37):
There was a a moment in the um, I'm sure I'm sure you
were in the primates meeting orthe bishop's meeting at the
time, but in the um the laityand clergy auditorium where we
were yesterday afternoon, umwhen they were taking input
ideas for the statement, onedelegate from the floor said um
something similar to that, andthere was big applause around
(14:58):
the auditorium.
And uh Richard Condy, who waschairing the meeting, said, uh,
look, I just want you to knowI'm gonna take that feedback
back to the uh to the primatesand to the to the bishop's
group.
SPEAKER_03 (15:10):
We are planning for that, we are dreaming that, and
we are moving towards that.
And uh it is all our prayer thatwe will see something new within
the Anglican Communion in thenearest future.
SPEAKER_09 (15:29):
The good thing is primates of global south,
primates of GAFCO, we are comingtogether.
Um, and uh the vision um we aregoing to develop it will be
approved by the assembly of uhglobal south and by the primary
council of uh GAFCON movement.
(15:51):
So we are going to meet togetherand we are going to move in a
direction that we will agree.
Perhaps a bit of a timeline.
Um uh definitely we will have toagree before the next uh
assembly of global south, whichwill be in May next year.
SPEAKER_08 (16:14):
I wonder if I can ask.
Um, and and this this idea ofunity between uh GAFCON and the
Global South has been a bigtheme of this conference and
quite clearly a great desire ofthe delegates.
It was almost we're almostwaiting for all the primers to
meet together on Tuesdayafternoon, I think it it was.
Um, and you're obviously in aunique position being in both
(16:35):
those groups.
I'll be allowed to ask what wasthe what was the mood and the
sentiment in that meeting?
SPEAKER_09 (16:42):
Love friendship, focus on the future.
You know, if you look at thedifferent primates, the green
chair of GAFCO is the treasurerof global south.
The president of uh globalsouth, he's also a primate of uh
(17:05):
the Gafkan movement.
So um uh we are alreadytogether, we need to define the
structure for the future.
And the the definition, the newdefinition of the Anglican
Communion, then it's going to beratified by the Assembly of
Global South and by the um uhPrime Minister Committee of uh
(17:28):
Gafcon.
SPEAKER_07 (17:30):
So, Paul Donison, you've just seen those two
interviews, one with James Wongand one with uh uh Archbishop
Badiya Rama.
Uh what's your reaction lookingback in 2026 to that those
comments at the end of theKigali Conference 2023?
SPEAKER_04 (17:47):
Yeah, we're getting closer and closer to the
three-year mark, aren't we?
I mean and I'll just say that II think with great intentions,
and I even with all theengagement I've had on these
issues, working with GSFA and uhyou know really trying to see
this uh union come together.
I was one of the delegates onthe floor that was pooting and
(18:08):
hollering pretty loudly when Iheard that.
I thought, yes, bring thistogether.
Uh because we've always saidthat the the the revisionists
are actually, ironically,unified and the and the
conservatives, the orthodox, areare often divided within within
the church.
You know, the the revisionists,although they they'll divide
over all kinds of things, butthey are sort of unified around
Canterbury and the oldstructures, uh the failed
(18:29):
structures, the the failedinstruments.
Um but the Orthodox aren'talways unified.
And and so that's why I thinkwe're that.
SPEAKER_07 (18:36):
Um the problem's really clear, it's what our
response should be.
Precisely.
And that's where the differentstrategies with each other.
SPEAKER_04 (18:43):
And the strategies emerge differently.
And I would just say I wasencouraged then.
I'm still encouraged now.
Uh I think we've made attempts.
Uh they have not yet come tofruition of really seeing
collaboration, that the overlapof what GSFA and GAFCON are
doing is still there.
Because James Wong gave us areally tight timeline there.
Absolutely, absolutely.
(19:04):
And I was at that uh firstassembly for for GSFA as an
observer uh in Cairo, uh inAlexandria, and and we were
hoping that there would be allthis sort of movement towards
unity, and there justunfortunately wasn't.
I will say at the ground levelof coming out of the floor of
the actual meeting inAlexandria, there was this push
(19:25):
for a motion that was almostforcing the same question back
from Kigali, saying, let'sactually get everyone working
together.
And you can see that there wasdynamics.
SPEAKER_07 (19:34):
People wanted it in the grassroots level south.
SPEAKER_04 (19:37):
And I think that's been that's been key throughout
this whole last almost threeyears has been at the grassroots
level, in the pews, in thechurches, uh, in most of the
dioceses around the world,they've said, this would be
great.
We need to make this happen,come together.
Um, I would say that forGAFCON's part, as we move
forward with this assembly, uh,this gathering, this G26
(19:58):
conference, um, everyone'sinvited.
The Orthodox.
If you can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, you're invited.
If you're a primate, you'reinvited.
Come, be in the room, be be atthe table, be in the room where
it happens, as they say.
Um and and and if we're going inthe wrong direction, to quote
Hamilton, um, you know, and uhthe Canadian who's a newly
minted American can quoteHamilton.
But the but the truth is thatuh, you know, if there's
(20:20):
something that that we're sayingin the in the Macquarie
statement, in the Mardi Saystatement that is unhelpful,
well, be in the room and let'stalk about it.
And if there's things we can saybetter, um, then let's have
those conversations.
So I really think the G26, withthat sense of urgency, is I
think the moment.
Uh I think Archbishop James Wongwas right that there was a sense
(20:42):
of urgency.
It didn't quite lay out on thetimetable we'd expect.
And this is often our case.
You know, the Lord's got adifferent timetable than we do.
Um so he thought it would bewithin a year.
Maybe now it'll be about threeyears in Abuja 2026.
Let's see the real Orthodoxfamily come together.
And and that would be the hope.
SPEAKER_07 (21:01):
Now, um, a few weeks ago, the Global South put out a
statement.
They didn't interact with whatyou're doing, but they did seem
to be laying out a well, theywere laying out a different
trajectory for it.
Yeah.
How have the conversations beengoing about these two different
trajectories between the globalsouth, predominantly based
(21:23):
around Asia, and the um uh theGAFCON where the center of
gravity is not is is Africa?
SPEAKER_04 (21:29):
Aaron Powell Well and I think part of the part of
what's been happening is youtalk to different people and you
hear very different things.
I mean, so there's some whowould would see what the GFCFA
put out as a statement recentlythat sounds like they're plowing
ahead with a bit of a differentdirection.
They're seem to be focused moreon uh resetting the communion
according to Canterbury uhstructures.
(21:52):
For example, the Yaskifo,Nairobi, Cairo uh reports.
Um that these will be themechanisms by which they reset
the community.
Communion.
And I think within GAFCON, theresponse has been, well, no,
we're not going to look toCanterbury Strike.
So I think there's some thatwould say it looks like GSFA and
GAFCON have got very differenttrajectories.
(22:13):
Others, though, because we dohave great overlap, as um
Archbishop Body says in thevideo along with Archbishop
James Wong, the overlap isenormous.
So you talk to differentprimates who go to both sets of
meetings, and some of them areactually quite optimistic,
saying, actually we're we'rewe're much more unified than it
seems.
SPEAKER_07 (22:30):
So let's do this together.
We've got the same theologicalconcerns.
SPEAKER_04 (22:36):
You were you remember it.
I mean, you were you wereheavily involved, Jody, in the
in the leadership behind thescenes there in Kigali.
I mean, you remember thatexcitement.
SPEAKER_05 (22:44):
Absolutely, that's right.
And and I think that theexpectation that James Wong had
for 2024 is what we're thinkingnow for 2026.
Now there's been that two-yeargap.
And it is a little bit differentin that we've come to this
moment where we've said the theprimates have said through the
statement last year, we have gotto be at the point where we are
not engaging with theinstruments of the communion
(23:05):
anymore.
Because the time has come afterall of these moments of
discussions, the call forrepentance, it's vital that an
action actually happens.
And so continuing to engage withthe instruments as we had in the
past is no longer the strategy.
That's right.
And so we there is there is a apoint of difference there in
(23:27):
that GAFCON is not saying we'regoing to be engaging with the
Canterbury statements and theYascafo and and things like
that, the the Nairobi um Cairoum statement and so on.
We're saying when we're notconcerned about who is going to
be the the the moving Archbishopof Canterbury or whoever it is
that's not the president of thecommunion, that kind of stuff.
(23:48):
That's not the that's not theconcern for us.
The time has come, and that isthat is what really in so many
ways led Archbishop Mbanda to tocall together the meeting last
year to say we have got to dosomething.
What are we going to do?
SPEAKER_07 (24:02):
Now I'm imagining there are still some primates
perhaps sitting on the fence uhabout whether or not they'll go
to Abuja, is that right?
SPEAKER_04 (24:14):
Well, we we communicate.
I mean Jody's team is doing anamazing job sending out
invitations, and of course, allof us are making phone calls and
talking with everyone.
It's a global church, and peoplehave crazy schedules, and
they've got conf conflicts, andthey've got um all kinds of
different reasons why they canor can't be there.
But so we're hoping that'simportant.
Well, that's the hope.
So we're continuing to pray thatwe really do get the right
(24:37):
people.
The Lord will decide who needsto be in the room.
We hope that it's uh as broad arepresentation of the Orthodox
Anglican Bible-believingcommunion as we can find.
SPEAKER_07 (24:46):
Aaron Ross Powell And my sense is that even if the
primate's not with you fromquite a number of prov
provinces, um a number of seniorleaders are.
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (24:54):
That's right.
And that's what's what's what'sencouraging.
I mean, again, you want to talkabout the the number of requests
you're getting on a daily basis?
SPEAKER_05 (25:00):
Absolutely.
And and it may be that the theprimate may not have the
intention at this stage ofattending, not clear yet.
But certainly we are getting onon a daily basis, I'm getting
bishops diocesans emailingsaying, can I get an invitation,
please?
I want to be there.
I think it's really important tobe in the room.
And I think I think related tothis is that there's a I I
(25:21):
suspect some people think thatif I turn up at a bouja, I'm
signing off on everything, thatI'm completely sold on the whole
movement and the wholedirection.
But we are wanting people to bein the room to influence it, to
actually have a voice in it, sothat there can be that sense of
um it's not just a signed-offstatement, it's it's a work in
(25:42):
progress.
And so if you want to be a partof it, you want to be a part of
the global Anglican Communion,show up at G26.
But even if you don't, that'snot the end either.
SPEAKER_04 (25:51):
That's right.
If you can sign the JerusalemDeclaration, which has really
been since 2008, ourcontemporary Anglican confession
that says holding together theBible as the center of what it
means to be Anglican, you know,read within the Anglican
formularies, right?
This understanding that I thinkI think the JD is still
brilliant.
I get my parishioners who wantto become members of the church
to sign the JD.
I mean, I just say this is Whenthis is using acronyms here,
(26:12):
this is.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right, that's right,that's right.
Um, but the for the JerusalemDeclaration being this very
clear confessional statement umthat people can get around.
So we're saying you do need tobe able to sign the Jerusalem
Declaration to come.
In fact, there's a button youhave to press on the
registration page that says doyou affirm yes?
Um, but at the end of the day,though, we want the global
(26:33):
church to gather to pray, tocall upon the Holy Spirit to
guide and lead.
Um, and we can't set atrajectory together if we're not
all together.
Uh and but we will move forward.
Again, the urgency, and this isI think the key, the urgency
drives us forward.
SPEAKER_07 (26:49):
And let's come back to this um uh person who would
end up being the first amongequals primate.
Um uh I and others have been uhscorn scornful of the process in
electing the Archbishop ofCanterbury.
Um but uh how do we make surethis election is a good election
that lots of us are going to beable to say, yeah, that was a
(27:12):
good process?
And will it be contested?
SPEAKER_04 (27:15):
I mean I think the the challenge will be that as
the primates gather, I mean it'sthe whole church gathering, it's
the bishops and it's clergy andlady, but the primates uh will
will be gathering beforehand.
SPEAKER_07 (27:27):
Just the primates who do the electing.
SPEAKER_04 (27:28):
Well, that's that's been our way in the past.
I mean, GAFCON has been aprimate-led movement
specifically.
Again, like I said, the primatescouncil, what includes the
advisors, the guarantors, thetrustees, means you've got
clergy, laity, bishops who arenot primates all gathered.
Um and so they're all speakinginto this, they're all part of
the conversation.
But traditionally, we've had theprimates vote.
Um, we're not suggesting yetthat we start using the
(27:52):
synodical language.
And I'm I'm only cautious in thelanguage because when we say
synodical as opposed toconciliar, synodical assumes
usually a constitutionalprocess.
People assume, oh, well, we II'm part of a synod, we have a
I'm part of a diocese, we have asynod, or I'm just by eligible.
You know, and therefore byhouses and people start arguing,
and the canon lawyers are in themix of all that.
(28:14):
Those are helpful conversations.
Um, but I don't think we'rethere yet.
And and many of us would say wedon't really need a global synod
in the sense that we don't needthe global church sending in a
sort of a magisterial kind offormat from on high declarations
down through the ranks of thechurch.
We need a fellowship that is inin council with the church in
(28:35):
sort of the Acts 15 model, whichI said at the beginning, is is
we meet together, we're incouncil, the whole church is
heard, speaks.
How we work out the specifics ofvoting and all the rest will be
determined.
And so on the Prime MinisterParis question, this is
something that's gonna have tobe seen when we arrive.
We're gonna have to talk itthrough.
And yes, there'll always bedetractors that say you didn't
(28:56):
do it right.
I think the Crown nominationcommittee process is so bad that
in so many ways.
I'm not suggesting it's gonna beeasy to do this, but no matter
how we approach this, it's gotto be it's got to be better than
that.
I mean, we're we're actuallyapproaching this with you know
those who are actual globalleaders, uh representing the
(29:17):
whole of the church meetingtogether rather than this
carefully constructednominations committee that's
frankly full of a lot oftokenism of, oh, we'll get some
global leaders, but do theyreally represent the global
church?
They didn't.
They didn't.
And the decision they madeevidences that you know that the
Lambeth structures are stilltone-deaf to where the global
(29:37):
church is really at.
SPEAKER_07 (29:38):
Well, if you've got somebody appointed by the
British Prime Minister and theKing.
SPEAKER_04 (30:04):
His mother seemed to have a real heart for Jesus.
Absolutely.
But no one's assumed this.
And so to hear the the about tobecome Archbishop of Canterbury
suggests that the king is awonderful Christian man, I want
to say, can you recognize asolid Christian from another?
I mean, I hope that would bepart of the job description for
a leader of a global communion.
Amen.
unknown (30:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_07 (30:25):
Uh thank you very much for coming in.
Paul Donison pulling punchesthis afternoon on the Pastors
Heart.
My name's Dominic Steele.
Our guests have been PaulDonison, the General Secretary
of GAFCON, and Jody McNeil, theoperations manager of GAFCON.
We're looking forward to beingwith you every day of the
GAFCONFRS in Nigeria and uhbringing you on the Pastor's
(30:48):
Heart uh the coverage.
You could go tothepastorsheart.net and
subscribe to our coverage, andwe'll send you an email every
day uh letting you know thevarious interviews that we've
done.
And then you can tune in andfollow the progress.
Thanks for joining us today.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com