March 30, 2026 • 33 mins
‘Authority’ and ‘care’- the two big words New Testament lecturer Peter Orr says belong together at the heart of real shepherding.
Lecturer at Sydney’s Moore Theological College, Peter Orr, has told the Nexus Conference, that one of the great confusions of our moment is confusion about the role of the pastor.
He asks whether in circles like ours, with a strong and right emphasis on every-member ministry, we accidentally downplayed the distinctiveness of the pastor?
What does it mean to say that a pastor has real authority, but that it is derived, limited and for care? How to avoid harshness, being too soft and lazy.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
Authority and care.
They're two key words that PeterRohr has used to describe real
shepherding or the pastor'srole, and yet that's not how we
instinctively think.
We tend to suspect authority andsentimentalize care, or we treat
firmness and gentleness asopposites.
But Peter Rohr says they belongtogether.
It is the pastor's heart and thecore issue today, confusion
(01:01):
about the role of the pastor intoday's world.
What is the beating heart of theshepherd's role in a time when
some pastors have exercisedauthority harshly, while others,
perhaps reacting against that,have become so hesitant to lead
that they no longer reallyshepherd at all?
Peter Raw lectures in NewTestament at Sydney's Moore
(01:22):
Theological College.
He's the author of Fight forYour Pastor, and he was the main
presenter at Sydney'ssignificant Nexus Ministry
Conference just a couple ofweeks ago.
Peter Rohr, thanks for comingin.
And let's start with your heart.
I was going to say, let's startwith your pastor's heart, but do
you see yourself as a pastor?
What's the difference betweenyou and a pastor and the
(01:44):
congregation and a pastor?
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Yeah, thanks, Dominic.
Uh, good question.
I work at Moore College.
I train pastors.
So I have a heart for pastors.
I mean, we train lots of otherpeople, um, missionaries, uh,
people who go on to do studentministry, but we also train
people who will become uh seniorministers.
So my heart is for them.
I think the work that I do has apastoral dimension to it.
(02:09):
Uh we uh, you know, all of us asfaculty, we seek to care uh for
the students that the Lord hasbrought to us.
But I wouldn't see myself as apastor.
But I'm very concerned that uhpastors are kind of trained well
and supported uh after theyleave college.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
And there is confusion about the role of the
pastor today, and some of it hascome from the right concern
about every member ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I think we have probably in the
last 50 years rightlyre-emphasized every member
ministry that um, you know,church is not meant to be just
the pastor doing the ministry.
I think we're we're all youknow, we're members of the body,
we all serve together, we allspeak the truth in love to one
another.
But perhaps in rightly kind ofrecapturing the focus on that,
(02:56):
we've inadvertently neglected tothink clearly about the role of
the pastor.
And so um in some circles wecould be a little bit fuzzy,
fuzzy on that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
And perhaps we've reacted against, if you like,
clericalism in Roman Catholicismand stuff like that.
And I've heard evangelicals saythe difference between me the
pastor and you the member isquantitative.
But you're actually sayingsomething different to that.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
No, I think it is quantitative.
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
And you know, there are 60 hours, 50 hours of
ministry a week, and you canonly do 10 because you're um in
the congregation.
You've actually got to go towork.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
I mean that that's that's true, but I think there's
more to it.
I think the New Testament seesuh the role of the pastor, or we
might say the elder or theoverseer, as qualitatively
different as well.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
How I think um the the the kind of words that you
opened with, authority and care.
I think the you know the pastorhas uh a right, and we might
talk about this, a rightauthority with respect to the
congregation that um you know Ias a congregation member don't,
and has a responsibility to carefor the congregation.
(04:09):
No, I want to I want and Ishould care for my brothers and
sisters, but not in the same waythat a pastor did.
SPEAKER_01 (04:15):
Now, you helped me the other week at this Nexus
conference to to think throughauthority and care, not just
from the New Testament epistles,but from a number of passages in
the Old Testament.
Can you just take us on ajourney there?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
Yeah, so if we think of the pastor or the shepherd
metaphor in the Old Testament,um, you know, as we trace it
through the Old Testament, thesetwo dimensions of authority and
care are consistently used whenthe shepherd metaphor of
leadership is employed.
So right at the beginning,Numbers 27, um, with Moses'
(04:48):
death uh or impending death,Joshua is um kind of appointed
to lead the people so that uh,and uh the the text says so that
they might not be a sheepwithout a shepherd.
And what is Joshua to do?
Well, he is to go out beforebefore them to lead the people.
So there's that that sense ofkind of caring for them,
(05:09):
protecting them, but also sothat they uh might obey him.
So there you have kind of careand authority that carries
through.
Perhaps the most famous passageabout shepherding is Psalm 23.
And you know, the psalm, theshepherd in Psalm 23 has a rod
and a staff.
(05:29):
And we maybe think, okay, well,those are just kind of synonyms,
but the rod was uh the theweapon, it was to protect um the
sheep.
So there's that sense ofauthority to protect.
But also the rod was used forcounting the sheep to sort of,
if we like, make sure that theyare all there.
Um so it's it's an expression ofthe the shepherd's leadership
(05:52):
over the sheep.
Um and then the staff was to toguide and to make sure that the
um yeah, the sheep were kind ofwalking in the right paths, that
the the paths of righteousnessis the passage says.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Now, when I say that to an English congregation, um I
think their eyes glaze over, doyou know?
Yeah.
But you're actually confident ofthat in terms of the Hebrew
words or the backstory.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah, and the rod, you know, um Psalm 2, which is
picked up in Revelation 2, isChrist is the shepherd, you
know, the rod is the weapon.
Um, so that you know, thatthat's a kind of quite quite a
graphic and I think helpful wayof of encapsulating those two
ideas.
But but throughout uh the OldTestament, Isaiah 40, God as
(06:38):
shepherd carries those who haveyoung.
So there's a it's a it's a realsense of kind of tenderness.
Um but you know, the shepherd uhin Ezekiel 34, God as shepherd
again will will kind of lead hispeople.
So it's it's a it's it's a kindof picture of authority.
So those two dimensions,authority and care in the Old
(06:59):
Testament, and then they carrythrough into the New Testament.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
I'm gonna push more into authority in a moment, but
um uh one of the lines you usedis pastoral authority is derived
and limited.
Can you just kind of yes?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
So if we think of Ezekiel 34, um that's the kind
of great passage in the prophetswhere the shepherds, the leaders
of Israel, are criticized forthe way that they uh lead uh or
fail to lead God's people.
And one of the things they do isthey they are profiting from the
(07:30):
sheep.
And when you think about it,well, isn't a shepherd, isn't
the whole point of being ashepherd that you have a flock
and you're you're meant toeconomically benefit from it.
But if you are not the owner ofthe sheep, then that that is not
what you should be doing.
And so the behind that critiqueis the fact that um the
(07:50):
shepherds in Ezekiel 34 thinkthat they own the sheep.
And that is the problem.
That's where um pastoralauthority goes wrong, is when
the pastor thinks he owns thesheep.
God owns the sheep, and thepastor in in Peter's language in
1 Peter 5 is an under-shepherd.
Um, it is not that we um, ifwe're a pastor, own the sheep,
(08:11):
God owns the sheep, and sothat's when authority uh yeah
gets distorted.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
I've I've got a line swirling around in my head from
a couple of weeks ago of um thepastors to rebuke not when his
will is crossed, but when God'sword is crossed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
Can you so you know the the the perhaps in in um you
know in pastoral ministry thethe sharpest exercise of
(09:07):
authority is when you have torebuke, and uh Paul and Titus
can can use the language ofrebuke sharply.
But that is uh not when peoplearen't doing what you want them
to do.
It's when people aren't actingin line with God's word.
So again, it's a derivedauthority.
Your authority is to help peoplewalk in paths of righteousness,
Psalm 23, in in in line withwhat God wants them to do, not
(09:29):
in line with what your programis so that you can kind of have
a successful ministry.
unknown (09:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Now you used words of harsh pastor, soft pastor,
and lazy pastor.
Yeah.
Let's kind of push into each ofthose.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
Yeah.
So if you if you think ofauthority and care as the two
dimensions, uh, you know, thatthat can go wrong.
So you can have high authorityand you know, little or no care.
And that's the kind of harshpastor, the domineering pastor.
Uh so Ezekiel 34, you know, youruled with harshness.
And again, I think that is um uhthe the pastor who's forgotten
(10:07):
that he doesn't own uh hedoesn't own the flock.
So again.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
And I mean, just thinking there, I mean, they're
the ones we hear about, youknow, and that there are kind of
complaints and pushbacks about.
And yeah.
Um what do you think is going onthere?
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that language ofdomineering in uh 1 Peter 5 is
the same word that Jesus useswhen he says the Gentile lord it
over uh over them.
So it's in a sense applyingunhelpful kind of secular models
of leadership in a in a pastoralsetting and thinking of pastoral
(10:42):
authority in the way that a CEOmight think of their authority
rather than the shepherd who isunder God seeking to use his
authority to care for the flock.
Um, it's also interesting thatOne Peter is the letter in the
New Testament that perhaps mostmatches our situation in that
(11:04):
the opposition in One Peter isthe opposition of insults and
kind of pushback, if you if Ican use that language, rather
than the really kind of brutalpersecutions that might have
happened at other times.
And so it's it's sort of likeour own society where you you
know you're opposed, you'reinsulted.
And so the temptation for thepastor might be, well, I can't
(11:25):
control uh everything around me,but I can control my
congregation.
So perhaps that's what's goingon uh in one Peter, and that
might be an explanation.
In in a in a world of chaos,what can you control?
Or what can you what do youthink you can control?
You think you can control thecongregation, but that's a that
is a wrong kind of applicationof pastoral.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
To be control the congregation or control the
staff team.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Yeah, exactly.
And that that's not kind ofbiblical authority for the
pastor.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
We'll go to the opposite end and soft pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Yeah, so there would be the opposite, where you've
got kind of low authority or noauthority and high care.
And again, motivated out of uh akind of desire to care for the
flock, but perhaps what it getsdistorted when it's um simply a
desire to meet the perceivedneeds of the flock.
And so you react to what theywant.
(12:17):
And you know, there might belots of motivations for doing
that, but you're not actingagain as the shepherd under God,
seeking to lead the flock inGod's will, in paths of
righteousness.
You're simply um yeah, reactingto what they want.
You you might um, you know,react to the to the wider world
and sort of set the direction ofyour pastoral ministry to not
(12:41):
kind of conflict with kind ofcultural norms.
And so what happens there isthat because in our in our
culture authority is is kind ofum questioned and even opposed,
that that's the thing that thatslips.
And so there's no place forrebuke um or kind of correction.
(13:02):
It's it's a very soft ministry.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
If I go for those two poles, the harsh poll and
the soft poll, I'm kind ofimagining that I mean uh I mean
there's obviously something inthe middle, you know, and
there's something in the middle.
I don't know if I don't evenwant to say the middle, but um,
that's not really the way to sayit.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
No, and and when I was doing the talk, I I I also
looked at um the other problem,which is uh kind of when both
are loath, so low authority, lowcare, and that's uh a what we
might call a a lazy pastor anduh a pastor who might be just
doing it for uh kind offinancial remuneration, you
know, certain contexts in theworld where being a pastor is
(13:44):
still a sort of kind of acareer, and you you might be
able to do it in a way that umyeah, you can you can live a
comfortable life.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
Well, you got to the point in pastoral ministry,
maybe you started out with theright intentions, but now you're
kind of, I don't know what elseI'd do.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And um, or or the otherdimension of that, which I I
thought about is um, you know,if you think of a father who's
uh a workaholic, that father isnot lazy, not at all.
He's not a lazy person, but hemight be a lazy father because
his work, his his workaholismmeans he neglects his family.
(14:20):
And you can maybe see a parallelwhere a pastor might be busy
doing lots of other things, kindof pastoral adjacent things, and
maybe some important things, butbut that leads him to neglect
his flock.
And so he's not a lazy person,but he's a lazy pastor.
And I should say, I mean, thoseare kind of these three ways of
(14:42):
analyzing where you know thepastoral ministry can go wrong.
Um that's I think they'rethey're they're in scripture, um
and there they are kind oftendencies that that pastors
need to watch against.
The ideal pastor, I guess it'sit's not so much high authority,
(15:02):
high care.
It's it's you know, it's Christ.
Christ is the ideal pastor, sohe is the model, and he has got
the kind of the perfect balanceof authority and care, and he he
is the one that we um modelourselves on.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
I was just thinking about um other ways of going
wrong, that it might not be thatI'm, if you like, harsh,
overbearing, and domineering,but I'm getting my way by being
manipulative and Machiavellian.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
That's that's very helpful.
Um and uh again, that is a whatwhat what that is again is the
same misunderstanding that thisis my flock and and my so my
will be done rather than youknow God's will be done.
Um and constantly the you knowthe pastor has to constantly
(15:53):
keep bringing himself and hisministry back to God's word.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Why is softness often misread as love?
Yes, I think or love perceivedas softness, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
I think again, because we we have a we struggle
with authority in our culturefor different reasons.
There have been abuse ofauthority, uh and um we are
speaking in an Australiancontext.
As an outsider, I would say thatum you know Australia has so
many strengths.
And it's just that it'sinteresting for me that it, you
(16:25):
know, authority in Australia isa complex thing, the
relationship of Australians toauthority.
I think it is an egalitarianculture, and so um there is
maybe a um a struggle to kind ofappropriately understand uh
authority.
I'm not saying that, you know,uh, you know, culture I come
from Northern Ireland, we wehave lots of weaknesses I could
(16:46):
talk about, but you know, maybethat's a weakness in Australian
culture, that kind of umunderstanding of authority.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
I mean, I've noticed it in um uh in the GAFCON world
um of wider Anglicanism, that uhuh as an Australian, um I will
think uh very flat as mydefaults.
Yeah.
Um whereas there are muchclearer leadership lines in some
of the other cultures that I'veencountered there.
SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Yeah, and and that can then perhaps start to to
kind of go too far into otherproblems.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah.
What's the difference betweenhealthy pastoral authority and
bullying?
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Healthy pastoral authority is driven by a desire
that the people in yourcongregation, again, walk in
paths of righteousness, thatthey um are obeying God, uh,
that they're cared for, thatthey're growing.
And so there is the place forthe, you know, the
encouragement, the the rebuke.
(17:46):
But even that has to be done ingentleness, Paul says.
You know, those who oppose youhe's to you know to gently
rebuke.
Uh so that's health, healthyauthority.
It's it's for the sake of theother.
It is it is always for the sakeof the other, uh, as opposed to
authority that is used to kindof um you know establish one's
(18:08):
own um place or or or kind of uhbuild one's ministry and one's
kind of sense of self-worththrough the ministry.
I mean, there are lots ofreasons that um that that can be
used in a wrong way.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
I mean, our program is mainly for senior pastors,
but there's assistant ministersand uh church members listening
in.
Yeah.
How can they tell if a seniorpastor's firmness is
Christ-shaped or controlling?
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I mean, that's tricky and and um
uh complex.
And I I don't want to sort ofgive a simplistic answer, but I
think you know there are thereare warning signals, and if it's
something that you know multiplepeople are noticing, um I think
you know that that's when that'swhen you start to sort of think,
(18:53):
okay, there's something there'ssomething problematic here.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah.
Um is pastoral authority uhexercised only in preaching or
also in kind of governancestaffing church direction?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
Yeah.
I I think uh I think it both.
I think it it it is and itshould be in in preaching.
And so preaching should have adimension that can sometimes
feel a little bit uncomfortableas the word of God is, you know,
the the word of God um comes tous with the the authority of
(19:28):
God, and so the preacher needsto kind of communicate that.
Um and so preaching should makeus uncomfortable, like not
necessarily all the time, but itit should occasionally.
But I I think you're right interms of the governance of a
church, and it, you know, we wecould get into questions that
I'm not qualified to answerabout ecclesiology, like
different ecclesiasticalstructures and and what so what
(19:50):
that will look like, whatpastoral authority will look
like will look different inparticular um ecclesiastical
structures.
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
And you've talked about preaching having
authority, yeah.
And um you caused a little bitof um, I don't know, ruckus um
about um what that might looklike in a minister's diary day
to day.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Yeah.
So I think um, you know, I thinkpreaching is is very important.
And so I deliberately kind ofoverstated that a little bit in
a quote from uh a very helpfulbook, uh if kind of listeners
want to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So John Curry, you know, the uhum leading by pastoring.
(20:31):
I sorry, I can't remember theexact uh leading by preaching,
um, but it's by John Curry.
He says that the majority of thepastor's time should be taken up
in um kind of preparing um topreach.
And now that might be a bit ofan overstatement, but I think
it's a good correction in insome contexts where preaching
has sort of just become soperipheral to the to the
(20:55):
pastor's um time.
Uh I think it's a goodcorrection and a good reminder
that uh you know the the thepeople of God assemble to hear
the word, the word of God, it itit is a significant thing.
And so that should be reflectedin in the pastor's preparation.
I I think you know that's that'sthe that's the example in the
(21:18):
history of the church.
Um that's an example in uhmajority of kind of church
contexts around the world, evenif I think probably the the
quote I used was a little bitoverstated.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
So I mean majority is the key, the problem.
I mean that's the debated word.
I mean majority sounds like morethan 50 percent.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I would have thought in the roomthe other week, very few senior
pastors would actually bespending more than 50 percent of
their time in the study.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Yeah, and and this is where, and you know, in a
couple of places I acknowledgeduh, you know, I'm I'm a lecturer
at Moore College, and you know,I wrote I wrote these talks
sitting at my desk in my airconditioned office, and I and I
know that you know the pastoralministry, as I mean, I know
firsthand from friends and uhcolleagues who are in pastoral
ministry is is very demanding.
And um, you know, for all thewill in the world, you know,
(22:11):
it's it is it it can be veryhard to find that time.
Let's play with the idea though.
SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
Um I'm thinking no one in I'm thinking in the
ministry around me is pushing meto spend more time at my desk.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
Um everyone is saying, uh well, maybe somebody
would say the cr the talksaren't good enough, you need to
spend more time.
Do you know?
But um but most people aresaying, can you help me here?
Do you know or here is I mean Ithink people would look at me
and think, oh Dominic's verybusy, but I wish he'd spend more
time on this topic.
Only this topic is different forevery single person.
SPEAKER_00 (22:48):
Yeah.
I I think and I think again, um,yeah, the the the work of
preaching the word is is centralto the work of the pastor.
It's not the only thing, it hasto be the priority.
And I, you know, we at theconference we looked at um 1
Timothy 3 and 4, and you know,Paul's command to Timothy to
(23:09):
preach the word and theimportance that he gave that.
And so that's got to bereflected in in the pastor's
diary, acknowledging that uh itwill look different for
different pastors.
SPEAKER_01 (23:23):
It has got more complex, I think, or more
difficult, I think, in the lastum uh well, I've been doing it
for 25 years now.
Um I I feel like there's beenthere's a much bigger push on
compliance and governance andall those kind of things.
I mean, uh not just from thesecular authorities in terms of
(23:46):
but also from the denomination.
Um and uh all these things aresaying the kingdom will fall if
you don't do this, and thekingdom will fall if you don't
do that.
You know, yeah.
And yet actually the kingdomfalls if I'm not preaching
prayerfully preaching the wordof God.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
I think that's right.
And again, uh, you know, as Isaid here, it's very easy for me
to speak on these things.
I I know the pressure thatpastors feel.
And perhaps this is where as acongregation member, I and other
congregation members need tostep up and say, look, some of
this important, vital compliancestuff.
You know, maybe we we can dothat, or we can help you do that
(24:26):
uh to free up your time to spendin uh prayer and the word.
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
I mean, I wrote back to our denominational office the
other day when they told me Ihad to do this urgent thing.
And I said, if you want thisthing done, you'll need to write
to my administrator.
They wrote back saying, no, youneed to do it.
Yeah.
And I said, I'm not gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it it is it is hard.
It's it's it's complex.
We do live in a complex world,and because of you know, past
failures, we we live downstreamof that, and it's very
important.
I I realize that.
And and maybe this is somethingthat we have to kind of address,
you know, as as congregations,as denominations, so that these
(25:04):
things need to get done.
But perhaps the senior ministerisn't the one who needs to kind
of be taking the each of thosethings.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
We've got to be able to delegate some of those things
because you can't delegate thehow frequently should the senior
minister preach?
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
How long is a piece of string?
Um, yeah.
I again, I I think seniorminister in leading the
congregation, I I presume wantsto be doing the lion's share of
the preaching.
But um, yeah, that what again,what that looks like will be
different depending on how manyservices you have, you know,
your your your model ofcongregational leadership.
(25:42):
Um I spoke at the conferenceabout the what what I've noticed
again, a difference between theUK and Australia is in the UK
you tend to have more churcheswhere you would have um people
going to church twice, morningand evening, hearing two
sermons.
SPEAKER_01 (25:59):
So for Do you is that the case at the moment, or
is that 20 years ago?
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
I think that's still the case at the moment.
Um in in a lot of contexts,yeah.
There's still uh this um there'dbe a lot of places in the UK um
where you would have two uh as Ias I understand it, um, where
you would have uh a differentsermon morning and evening.
Um so two differentopportunities for people to sit
(26:26):
sit under the word of God.
Again, that that kind ofincreases the time that the the
pastor needs to be it'sinteresting to reflect on how
the internet has changed thesethings.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Um I'm I'm just thinking in my own context now.
Um I'm preaching three times aSunday and giving the same talk
three times a Sunday.
And I often think, oh, which onewas the best?
Oh, it's that one.
We'll put that one online.
Yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that is um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Um I thought the rapport was best, I thought the
engagement was whatever it was,do you know?
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
Yeah.
Um uh and I mean there is asense that we're all being I
mean, this might be the wrongway to think, and tell me, but
there's a sense that you putyour talks up online, your
people are listening, assessing,deciding on whether or not they
come to your church based onwhat they most people have
checked things out online firstin some way or another.
SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
Yeah, I mean that is that is the way of the the way
of the world.
But I guess once people are atyour church and and you know
you're responsible for them asyour pastor, you want to be
feeding them.
And you know, Paul talks in uh 1Timothy 4, you know, he says,
preach the word uh correct,rebuke, and encourage.
And there's a sense in whichit's hard to correct people or
(27:44):
rebuke people if you don't knowthem.
And so um, or or maybe, youknow, I'm uh I it it it's easier
to correct people if you know ifyou know them, you know where
they're struggling in theirthinking.
It's easier to rebuke peoplewhen you know where they're
struggling in their um orsinning in their you know in
their lives.
It's easier to encourage peoplewhere you know that you know
(28:05):
they're the particular uh thingsthat they're struggling with.
So knowing your flock helps youto be a better preacher.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
Yeah.
I wasn't expecting to go herethis afternoon, but um uh it's I
mean the model of having peoplecome to church twice, actually
part of that is how many hours aweek do you expect of your
congregation members toparticipate in church things,
you know?
Yeah.
And um I've kind of worked onthe expectation that the the
(28:35):
average engaged person in ourchurch might give me 10, might
give us 10 to 12 hours a week,do you know?
Um I'm thinking three hours onSunday morning, three hours on
Wednesday night, one serviceministry, rostered service
ministry a week, and a lunchtimemeetup with someone to encourage
(28:59):
like a spontaneous them takeinitiative thing.
That kind of adds up to 10, 11hours.
Yep.
And I just don't know how Icould expect more than that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
And and to be clear, I was in a sense throwing out
that idea of of preaching twosermons on a Sunday as at least
something to to think about, asa as a different model.
And um, you know, what whatyou're you're kind of suggesting
there, or you're kind ofexplaining that sounds also like
a good model.
I guess the the I mean I'd likemore time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
I guess um Because people will be more mature the
more the more they're hearingthe word of God.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
I mean, I think that's the thing that in a in a
world where we are drowning ininformation and it's uh
information that's not from theBible to sit together under
God's word together, you know,it it it can't hurt to be doing
that more than more than we are.
Yeah.
But again, to to stress, I Ipart part of these conferences
is to to kind of think and andpush a little bit.
(29:58):
So I'm certainly not saying umthat you know, I'm not I'm not
making a rallying call for kindof two sermons on a Sunday.
Um I threw that out as a well,have a have a think about that.
Is that a is that something thatmight help in your context uh
help you as a pastor actuallyspend more time in the word,
help your congregation?
Is that what they uh what theyneed?
(30:19):
But there are other ways ofdoing it.
Um and um yeah, we we we justwant people sitting under God's
word.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
We get the pushback about the too authoritarian
pastor.
We don't get much of a pushbackover the, if you like, the too
soft pastor.
Um how much of a danger do youthink that is in our current
contemporary context?
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Yeah, again, it's it's it's hard to be too
specific, but I think I meanyou're looking out at churches
around.
SPEAKER_01 (30:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Yeah, I think one sign is um an unwillingness to
be negative in preaching.
So again, taking that model from1 Timothy 4, uh preach the word,
and then Paul says uh correct,rebuke, and encourage.
So those are kind of twonegatives, if you like.
(31:06):
You know, correcting wherepeople have gone wrong in their
thinking, rebuking where peoplehave gone wrong in their living,
and then encourage is the kindof positive keep going.
So that there is a negativedimension, and you you look at
how much of the New Testament isnegative in the sense of it's
calling people back from uh fromsin or from error.
(31:28):
And I wonder in our preaching,if we if we don't do that, um,
so when we look at a passage, wekind of think, okay, the way
that this is misunderstood inour wider world or in our
Christian context is this.
So we need to guard against thiserror.
Uh, you know, this passagehighlights a particular sin.
We need to think about this.
And um yeah, so that lack ofkind of what we might call
(31:53):
negative.
I mean, it's not negative.
Negative makes it sound bad, butit's it's negative in the sense
of it's the correction.
Correction.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, just as you say that,I'm thinking uh uh a few years
ago when we saw um somecongregations had a really bumpy
ride through the uh plebiscite.
Yeah.
And um and I'm I'll just putthis out there.
Um I wondered whether that wasbecause in those particular
congregations there hadn't beenclarity on sexuality in in the
(32:24):
preaching in the lead up to it.
Yeah.
Uh whereas I think the churcheswhere there'd been real clarity
beforehand, um uh they rodethrough that choppy waters much
more smoothly.
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Yeah, that that definitely makes sense.
SPEAKER_01 (32:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
Thanks so much for coming in.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
Peter Orr has been our guest.
He's a lecturer in New Testamentat Sydney's Moore Theological
College and was the mainpresenter at the Nexus
Conference, the Nexus MinistersConference, uh here in Sydney
just a few weeks ago.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
Authority and care.
They're two key words that PeterRohr has used to describe real
shepherding or the pastor'srole, and yet that's not how we
instinctively think.
We tend to suspect authority andsentimentalize care, or we treat
firmness and gentleness asopposites.
But Peter Rohr says they belongtogether.
It is the pastor's heart and thecore issue today, confusion
(01:01):
about the role of the pastor intoday's world.
What is the beating heart of theshepherd's role in a time when
some pastors have exercisedauthority harshly, while others,
perhaps reacting against that,have become so hesitant to lead
that they no longer reallyshepherd at all?
Peter Raw lectures in NewTestament at Sydney's Moore
(01:22):
Theological College.
He's the author of Fight forYour Pastor, and he was the main
presenter at Sydney'ssignificant Nexus Ministry
Conference just a couple ofweeks ago.
Peter Rohr, thanks for comingin.
And let's start with your heart.
I was going to say, let's startwith your pastor's heart, but do
you see yourself as a pastor?
What's the difference betweenyou and a pastor and the
(01:44):
congregation and a pastor?
SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Yeah, thanks, Dominic.
Uh, good question.
I work at Moore College.
I train pastors.
So I have a heart for pastors.
I mean, we train lots of otherpeople, um, missionaries, uh,
people who go on to do studentministry, but we also train
people who will become uh seniorministers.
So my heart is for them.
I think the work that I do has apastoral dimension to it.
(02:09):
Uh we uh, you know, all of us asfaculty, we seek to care uh for
the students that the Lord hasbrought to us.
But I wouldn't see myself as apastor.
But I'm very concerned that uhpastors are kind of trained well
and supported uh after theyleave college.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
And there is confusion about the role of the
pastor today, and some of it hascome from the right concern
about every member ministry.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I think we have probably in the
last 50 years rightlyre-emphasized every member
ministry that um, you know,church is not meant to be just
the pastor doing the ministry.
I think we're we're all youknow, we're members of the body,
we all serve together, we allspeak the truth in love to one
another.
But perhaps in rightly kind ofrecapturing the focus on that,
(02:56):
we've inadvertently neglected tothink clearly about the role of
the pastor.
And so um in some circles wecould be a little bit fuzzy,
fuzzy on that.
SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
And perhaps we've reacted against, if you like,
clericalism in Roman Catholicismand stuff like that.
And I've heard evangelicals saythe difference between me the
pastor and you the member isquantitative.
But you're actually sayingsomething different to that.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
No, I think it is quantitative.
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
And you know, there are 60 hours, 50 hours of
ministry a week, and you canonly do 10 because you're um in
the congregation.
You've actually got to go towork.
SPEAKER_00 (03:35):
I mean that that's that's true, but I think there's
more to it.
I think the New Testament seesuh the role of the pastor, or we
might say the elder or theoverseer, as qualitatively
different as well.
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (03:47):
How I think um the the the kind of words that you
opened with, authority and care.
I think the you know the pastorhas uh a right, and we might
talk about this, a rightauthority with respect to the
congregation that um you know Ias a congregation member don't,
and has a responsibility to carefor the congregation.
(04:09):
No, I want to I want and Ishould care for my brothers and
sisters, but not in the same waythat a pastor did.
SPEAKER_01 (04:15):
Now, you helped me the other week at this Nexus
conference to to think throughauthority and care, not just
from the New Testament epistles,but from a number of passages in
the Old Testament.
Can you just take us on ajourney there?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
Yeah, so if we think of the pastor or the shepherd
metaphor in the Old Testament,um, you know, as we trace it
through the Old Testament, thesetwo dimensions of authority and
care are consistently used whenthe shepherd metaphor of
leadership is employed.
So right at the beginning,Numbers 27, um, with Moses'
(04:48):
death uh or impending death,Joshua is um kind of appointed
to lead the people so that uh,and uh the the text says so that
they might not be a sheepwithout a shepherd.
And what is Joshua to do?
Well, he is to go out beforebefore them to lead the people.
So there's that that sense ofkind of caring for them,
(05:09):
protecting them, but also sothat they uh might obey him.
So there you have kind of careand authority that carries
through.
Perhaps the most famous passageabout shepherding is Psalm 23.
And you know, the psalm, theshepherd in Psalm 23 has a rod
and a staff.
(05:29):
And we maybe think, okay, well,those are just kind of synonyms,
but the rod was uh the theweapon, it was to protect um the
sheep.
So there's that sense ofauthority to protect.
But also the rod was used forcounting the sheep to sort of,
if we like, make sure that theyare all there.
Um so it's it's an expression ofthe the shepherd's leadership
(05:52):
over the sheep.
Um and then the staff was to toguide and to make sure that the
um yeah, the sheep were kind ofwalking in the right paths, that
the the paths of righteousnessis the passage says.
SPEAKER_01 (06:04):
Now, when I say that to an English congregation, um I
think their eyes glaze over, doyou know?
Yeah.
But you're actually confident ofthat in terms of the Hebrew
words or the backstory.
SPEAKER_00 (06:18):
Yeah, and the rod, you know, um Psalm 2, which is
picked up in Revelation 2, isChrist is the shepherd, you
know, the rod is the weapon.
Um, so that you know, thatthat's a kind of quite quite a
graphic and I think helpful wayof of encapsulating those two
ideas.
But but throughout uh the OldTestament, Isaiah 40, God as
(06:38):
shepherd carries those who haveyoung.
So there's a it's a it's a realsense of kind of tenderness.
Um but you know, the shepherd uhin Ezekiel 34, God as shepherd
again will will kind of lead hispeople.
So it's it's a it's it's a kindof picture of authority.
So those two dimensions,authority and care in the Old
(06:59):
Testament, and then they carrythrough into the New Testament.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
I'm gonna push more into authority in a moment, but
um uh one of the lines you usedis pastoral authority is derived
and limited.
Can you just kind of yes?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
So if we think of Ezekiel 34, um that's the kind
of great passage in the prophetswhere the shepherds, the leaders
of Israel, are criticized forthe way that they uh lead uh or
fail to lead God's people.
And one of the things they do isthey they are profiting from the
(07:30):
sheep.
And when you think about it,well, isn't a shepherd, isn't
the whole point of being ashepherd that you have a flock
and you're you're meant toeconomically benefit from it.
But if you are not the owner ofthe sheep, then that that is not
what you should be doing.
And so the behind that critiqueis the fact that um the
(07:50):
shepherds in Ezekiel 34 thinkthat they own the sheep.
And that is the problem.
That's where um pastoralauthority goes wrong, is when
the pastor thinks he owns thesheep.
God owns the sheep, and thepastor in in Peter's language in
1 Peter 5 is an under-shepherd.
Um, it is not that we um, ifwe're a pastor, own the sheep,
(08:11):
God owns the sheep, and sothat's when authority uh yeah
gets distorted.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
I've I've got a line swirling around in my head from
a couple of weeks ago of um thepastors to rebuke not when his
will is crossed, but when God'sword is crossed.
SPEAKER_00 (08:27):
Can you so you know the the the perhaps in in um you
know in pastoral ministry thethe sharpest exercise of
(09:07):
authority is when you have torebuke, and uh Paul and Titus
can can use the language ofrebuke sharply.
But that is uh not when peoplearen't doing what you want them
to do.
It's when people aren't actingin line with God's word.
So again, it's a derivedauthority.
Your authority is to help peoplewalk in paths of righteousness,
Psalm 23, in in in line withwhat God wants them to do, not
(09:29):
in line with what your programis so that you can kind of have
a successful ministry.
unknown (09:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:36):
Now you used words of harsh pastor, soft pastor,
and lazy pastor.
Yeah.
Let's kind of push into each ofthose.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:44):
Yeah.
So if you if you think ofauthority and care as the two
dimensions, uh, you know, thatthat can go wrong.
So you can have high authorityand you know, little or no care.
And that's the kind of harshpastor, the domineering pastor.
Uh so Ezekiel 34, you know, youruled with harshness.
And again, I think that is um uhthe the pastor who's forgotten
(10:07):
that he doesn't own uh hedoesn't own the flock.
So again.
SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
And I mean, just thinking there, I mean, they're
the ones we hear about, youknow, and that there are kind of
complaints and pushbacks about.
And yeah.
Um what do you think is going onthere?
SPEAKER_00 (10:22):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I think that language ofdomineering in uh 1 Peter 5 is
the same word that Jesus useswhen he says the Gentile lord it
over uh over them.
So it's in a sense applyingunhelpful kind of secular models
of leadership in a in a pastoralsetting and thinking of pastoral
(10:42):
authority in the way that a CEOmight think of their authority
rather than the shepherd who isunder God seeking to use his
authority to care for the flock.
Um, it's also interesting thatOne Peter is the letter in the
New Testament that perhaps mostmatches our situation in that
(11:04):
the opposition in One Peter isthe opposition of insults and
kind of pushback, if you if Ican use that language, rather
than the really kind of brutalpersecutions that might have
happened at other times.
And so it's it's sort of likeour own society where you you
know you're opposed, you'reinsulted.
And so the temptation for thepastor might be, well, I can't
(11:25):
control uh everything around me,but I can control my
congregation.
So perhaps that's what's goingon uh in one Peter, and that
might be an explanation.
In in a in a world of chaos,what can you control?
Or what can you what do youthink you can control?
You think you can control thecongregation, but that's a that
is a wrong kind of applicationof pastoral.
SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
To be control the congregation or control the
staff team.
SPEAKER_00 (11:46):
Yeah, exactly.
And that that's not kind ofbiblical authority for the
pastor.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
We'll go to the opposite end and soft pastor.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
Yeah, so there would be the opposite, where you've
got kind of low authority or noauthority and high care.
And again, motivated out of uh akind of desire to care for the
flock, but perhaps what it getsdistorted when it's um simply a
desire to meet the perceivedneeds of the flock.
And so you react to what theywant.
(12:17):
And you know, there might belots of motivations for doing
that, but you're not actingagain as the shepherd under God,
seeking to lead the flock inGod's will, in paths of
righteousness.
You're simply um yeah, reactingto what they want.
You you might um, you know,react to the to the wider world
and sort of set the direction ofyour pastoral ministry to not
(12:41):
kind of conflict with kind ofcultural norms.
And so what happens there isthat because in our in our
culture authority is is kind ofum questioned and even opposed,
that that's the thing that thatslips.
And so there's no place forrebuke um or kind of correction.
(13:02):
It's it's a very soft ministry.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
If I go for those two poles, the harsh poll and
the soft poll, I'm kind ofimagining that I mean uh I mean
there's obviously something inthe middle, you know, and
there's something in the middle.
I don't know if I don't evenwant to say the middle, but um,
that's not really the way to sayit.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
No, and and when I was doing the talk, I I I also
looked at um the other problem,which is uh kind of when both
are loath, so low authority, lowcare, and that's uh a what we
might call a a lazy pastor anduh a pastor who might be just
doing it for uh kind offinancial remuneration, you
know, certain contexts in theworld where being a pastor is
(13:44):
still a sort of kind of acareer, and you you might be
able to do it in a way that umyeah, you can you can live a
comfortable life.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
Well, you got to the point in pastoral ministry,
maybe you started out with theright intentions, but now you're
kind of, I don't know what elseI'd do.
SPEAKER_00 (14:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And um, or or the otherdimension of that, which I I
thought about is um, you know,if you think of a father who's
uh a workaholic, that father isnot lazy, not at all.
He's not a lazy person, but hemight be a lazy father because
his work, his his workaholismmeans he neglects his family.
(14:20):
And you can maybe see a parallelwhere a pastor might be busy
doing lots of other things, kindof pastoral adjacent things, and
maybe some important things, butbut that leads him to neglect
his flock.
And so he's not a lazy person,but he's a lazy pastor.
And I should say, I mean, thoseare kind of these three ways of
(14:42):
analyzing where you know thepastoral ministry can go wrong.
Um that's I think they'rethey're they're in scripture, um
and there they are kind oftendencies that that pastors
need to watch against.
The ideal pastor, I guess it'sit's not so much high authority,
(15:02):
high care.
It's it's you know, it's Christ.
Christ is the ideal pastor, sohe is the model, and he has got
the kind of the perfect balanceof authority and care, and he he
is the one that we um modelourselves on.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
I was just thinking about um other ways of going
wrong, that it might not be thatI'm, if you like, harsh,
overbearing, and domineering,but I'm getting my way by being
manipulative and Machiavellian.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
That's that's very helpful.
Um and uh again, that is a whatwhat what that is again is the
same misunderstanding that thisis my flock and and my so my
will be done rather than youknow God's will be done.
Um and constantly the you knowthe pastor has to constantly
(15:53):
keep bringing himself and hisministry back to God's word.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Why is softness often misread as love?
Yes, I think or love perceivedas softness, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:04):
I think again, because we we have a we struggle
with authority in our culturefor different reasons.
There have been abuse ofauthority, uh and um we are
speaking in an Australiancontext.
As an outsider, I would say thatum you know Australia has so
many strengths.
And it's just that it'sinteresting for me that it, you
(16:25):
know, authority in Australia isa complex thing, the
relationship of Australians toauthority.
I think it is an egalitarianculture, and so um there is
maybe a um a struggle to kind ofappropriately understand uh
authority.
I'm not saying that, you know,uh, you know, culture I come
from Northern Ireland, we wehave lots of weaknesses I could
(16:46):
talk about, but you know, maybethat's a weakness in Australian
culture, that kind of umunderstanding of authority.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
I mean, I've noticed it in um uh in the GAFCON world
um of wider Anglicanism, that uhuh as an Australian, um I will
think uh very flat as mydefaults.
Yeah.
Um whereas there are muchclearer leadership lines in some
of the other cultures that I'veencountered there.
SPEAKER_00 (17:14):
Yeah, and and that can then perhaps start to to
kind of go too far into otherproblems.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah.
What's the difference betweenhealthy pastoral authority and
bullying?
SPEAKER_00 (17:26):
Healthy pastoral authority is driven by a desire
that the people in yourcongregation, again, walk in
paths of righteousness, thatthey um are obeying God, uh,
that they're cared for, thatthey're growing.
And so there is the place forthe, you know, the
encouragement, the the rebuke.
(17:46):
But even that has to be done ingentleness, Paul says.
You know, those who oppose youhe's to you know to gently
rebuke.
Uh so that's health, healthyauthority.
It's it's for the sake of theother.
It is it is always for the sakeof the other, uh, as opposed to
authority that is used to kindof um you know establish one's
(18:08):
own um place or or or kind of uhbuild one's ministry and one's
kind of sense of self-worththrough the ministry.
I mean, there are lots ofreasons that um that that can be
used in a wrong way.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
I mean, our program is mainly for senior pastors,
but there's assistant ministersand uh church members listening
in.
Yeah.
How can they tell if a seniorpastor's firmness is
Christ-shaped or controlling?
SPEAKER_00 (18:32):
Aaron Powell Yeah, I mean, that's tricky and and um
uh complex.
And I I don't want to sort ofgive a simplistic answer, but I
think you know there are thereare warning signals, and if it's
something that you know multiplepeople are noticing, um I think
you know that that's when that'swhen you start to sort of think,
(18:53):
okay, there's something there'ssomething problematic here.
SPEAKER_01 (18:55):
Yeah.
Um is pastoral authority uhexercised only in preaching or
also in kind of governancestaffing church direction?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:06):
Yeah.
I I think uh I think it both.
I think it it it is and itshould be in in preaching.
And so preaching should have adimension that can sometimes
feel a little bit uncomfortableas the word of God is, you know,
the the word of God um comes tous with the the authority of
(19:28):
God, and so the preacher needsto kind of communicate that.
Um and so preaching should makeus uncomfortable, like not
necessarily all the time, but itit should occasionally.
But I I think you're right interms of the governance of a
church, and it, you know, we wecould get into questions that
I'm not qualified to answerabout ecclesiology, like
different ecclesiasticalstructures and and what so what
(19:50):
that will look like, whatpastoral authority will look
like will look different inparticular um ecclesiastical
structures.
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
And you've talked about preaching having
authority, yeah.
And um you caused a little bitof um, I don't know, ruckus um
about um what that might looklike in a minister's diary day
to day.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Yeah.
So I think um, you know, I thinkpreaching is is very important.
And so I deliberately kind ofoverstated that a little bit in
a quote from uh a very helpfulbook, uh if kind of listeners
want to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So John Curry, you know, the uhum leading by pastoring.
(20:31):
I sorry, I can't remember theexact uh leading by preaching,
um, but it's by John Curry.
He says that the majority of thepastor's time should be taken up
in um kind of preparing um topreach.
And now that might be a bit ofan overstatement, but I think
it's a good correction in insome contexts where preaching
has sort of just become soperipheral to the to the
(20:55):
pastor's um time.
Uh I think it's a goodcorrection and a good reminder
that uh you know the the thepeople of God assemble to hear
the word, the word of God, it itit is a significant thing.
And so that should be reflectedin in the pastor's preparation.
I I think you know that's that'sthe that's the example in the
(21:18):
history of the church.
Um that's an example in uhmajority of kind of church
contexts around the world, evenif I think probably the the
quote I used was a little bitoverstated.
SPEAKER_01 (21:29):
So I mean majority is the key, the problem.
I mean that's the debated word.
I mean majority sounds like morethan 50 percent.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I would have thought in the roomthe other week, very few senior
pastors would actually bespending more than 50 percent of
their time in the study.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Yeah, and and this is where, and you know, in a
couple of places I acknowledgeduh, you know, I'm I'm a lecturer
at Moore College, and you know,I wrote I wrote these talks
sitting at my desk in my airconditioned office, and I and I
know that you know the pastoralministry, as I mean, I know
firsthand from friends and uhcolleagues who are in pastoral
ministry is is very demanding.
And um, you know, for all thewill in the world, you know,
(22:11):
it's it is it it can be veryhard to find that time.
Let's play with the idea though.
SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
Um I'm thinking no one in I'm thinking in the
ministry around me is pushing meto spend more time at my desk.
SPEAKER_00 (22:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
Um everyone is saying, uh well, maybe somebody
would say the cr the talksaren't good enough, you need to
spend more time.
Do you know?
But um but most people aresaying, can you help me here?
Do you know or here is I mean Ithink people would look at me
and think, oh Dominic's verybusy, but I wish he'd spend more
time on this topic.
Only this topic is different forevery single person.
SPEAKER_00 (22:48):
Yeah.
I I think and I think again, um,yeah, the the the work of
preaching the word is is centralto the work of the pastor.
It's not the only thing, it hasto be the priority.
And I, you know, we at theconference we looked at um 1
Timothy 3 and 4, and you know,Paul's command to Timothy to
(23:09):
preach the word and theimportance that he gave that.
And so that's got to bereflected in in the pastor's
diary, acknowledging that uh itwill look different for
different pastors.
SPEAKER_01 (23:23):
It has got more complex, I think, or more
difficult, I think, in the lastum uh well, I've been doing it
for 25 years now.
Um I I feel like there's beenthere's a much bigger push on
compliance and governance andall those kind of things.
I mean, uh not just from thesecular authorities in terms of
(23:46):
but also from the denomination.
Um and uh all these things aresaying the kingdom will fall if
you don't do this, and thekingdom will fall if you don't
do that.
You know, yeah.
And yet actually the kingdomfalls if I'm not preaching
prayerfully preaching the wordof God.
SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
I think that's right.
And again, uh, you know, as Isaid here, it's very easy for me
to speak on these things.
I I know the pressure thatpastors feel.
And perhaps this is where as acongregation member, I and other
congregation members need tostep up and say, look, some of
this important, vital compliancestuff.
You know, maybe we we can dothat, or we can help you do that
(24:26):
uh to free up your time to spendin uh prayer and the word.
SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
I mean, I wrote back to our denominational office the
other day when they told me Ihad to do this urgent thing.
And I said, if you want thisthing done, you'll need to write
to my administrator.
They wrote back saying, no, youneed to do it.
Yeah.
And I said, I'm not gonna do it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it it is it is hard.
It's it's it's complex.
We do live in a complex world,and because of you know, past
failures, we we live downstreamof that, and it's very
important.
I I realize that.
And and maybe this is somethingthat we have to kind of address,
you know, as as congregations,as denominations, so that these
(25:04):
things need to get done.
But perhaps the senior ministerisn't the one who needs to kind
of be taking the each of thosethings.
SPEAKER_01 (25:12):
We've got to be able to delegate some of those things
because you can't delegate thehow frequently should the senior
minister preach?
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
How long is a piece of string?
Um, yeah.
I again, I I think seniorminister in leading the
congregation, I I presume wantsto be doing the lion's share of
the preaching.
But um, yeah, that what again,what that looks like will be
different depending on how manyservices you have, you know,
your your your model ofcongregational leadership.
(25:42):
Um I spoke at the conferenceabout the what what I've noticed
again, a difference between theUK and Australia is in the UK
you tend to have more churcheswhere you would have um people
going to church twice, morningand evening, hearing two
sermons.
SPEAKER_01 (25:59):
So for Do you is that the case at the moment, or
is that 20 years ago?
SPEAKER_00 (26:04):
I think that's still the case at the moment.
Um in in a lot of contexts,yeah.
There's still uh this um there'dbe a lot of places in the UK um
where you would have two uh as Ias I understand it, um, where
you would have uh a differentsermon morning and evening.
Um so two differentopportunities for people to sit
(26:26):
sit under the word of God.
Again, that that kind ofincreases the time that the the
pastor needs to be it'sinteresting to reflect on how
the internet has changed thesethings.
SPEAKER_01 (26:37):
Um I'm I'm just thinking in my own context now.
Um I'm preaching three times aSunday and giving the same talk
three times a Sunday.
And I often think, oh, which onewas the best?
Oh, it's that one.
We'll put that one online.
Yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that is um yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Um I thought the rapport was best, I thought the
engagement was whatever it was,do you know?
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
Yeah.
Um uh and I mean there is asense that we're all being I
mean, this might be the wrongway to think, and tell me, but
there's a sense that you putyour talks up online, your
people are listening, assessing,deciding on whether or not they
come to your church based onwhat they most people have
checked things out online firstin some way or another.
SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
Yeah, I mean that is that is the way of the the way
of the world.
But I guess once people are atyour church and and you know
you're responsible for them asyour pastor, you want to be
feeding them.
And you know, Paul talks in uh 1Timothy 4, you know, he says,
preach the word uh correct,rebuke, and encourage.
And there's a sense in whichit's hard to correct people or
(27:44):
rebuke people if you don't knowthem.
And so um, or or maybe, youknow, I'm uh I it it it's easier
to correct people if you know ifyou know them, you know where
they're struggling in theirthinking.
It's easier to rebuke peoplewhen you know where they're
struggling in their um orsinning in their you know in
their lives.
It's easier to encourage peoplewhere you know that you know
(28:05):
they're the particular uh thingsthat they're struggling with.
So knowing your flock helps youto be a better preacher.
SPEAKER_01 (28:12):
Yeah.
I wasn't expecting to go herethis afternoon, but um uh it's I
mean the model of having peoplecome to church twice, actually
part of that is how many hours aweek do you expect of your
congregation members toparticipate in church things,
you know?
Yeah.
And um I've kind of worked onthe expectation that the the
(28:35):
average engaged person in ourchurch might give me 10, might
give us 10 to 12 hours a week,do you know?
Um I'm thinking three hours onSunday morning, three hours on
Wednesday night, one serviceministry, rostered service
ministry a week, and a lunchtimemeetup with someone to encourage
(28:59):
like a spontaneous them takeinitiative thing.
That kind of adds up to 10, 11hours.
Yep.
And I just don't know how Icould expect more than that.
SPEAKER_00 (29:09):
And and to be clear, I was in a sense throwing out
that idea of of preaching twosermons on a Sunday as at least
something to to think about, asa as a different model.
And um, you know, what whatyou're you're kind of suggesting
there, or you're kind ofexplaining that sounds also like
a good model.
I guess the the I mean I'd likemore time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:30):
I guess um Because people will be more mature the
more the more they're hearingthe word of God.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
I mean, I think that's the thing that in a in a
world where we are drowning ininformation and it's uh
information that's not from theBible to sit together under
God's word together, you know,it it it can't hurt to be doing
that more than more than we are.
Yeah.
But again, to to stress, I Ipart part of these conferences
is to to kind of think and andpush a little bit.
(29:58):
So I'm certainly not saying umthat you know, I'm not I'm not
making a rallying call for kindof two sermons on a Sunday.
Um I threw that out as a well,have a have a think about that.
Is that a is that something thatmight help in your context uh
help you as a pastor actuallyspend more time in the word,
help your congregation?
Is that what they uh what theyneed?
(30:19):
But there are other ways ofdoing it.
Um and um yeah, we we we justwant people sitting under God's
word.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
We get the pushback about the too authoritarian
pastor.
We don't get much of a pushbackover the, if you like, the too
soft pastor.
Um how much of a danger do youthink that is in our current
contemporary context?
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
Yeah, again, it's it's it's hard to be too
specific, but I think I meanyou're looking out at churches
around.
SPEAKER_01 (30:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:46):
Yeah, I think one sign is um an unwillingness to
be negative in preaching.
So again, taking that model from1 Timothy 4, uh preach the word,
and then Paul says uh correct,rebuke, and encourage.
So those are kind of twonegatives, if you like.
(31:06):
You know, correcting wherepeople have gone wrong in their
thinking, rebuking where peoplehave gone wrong in their living,
and then encourage is the kindof positive keep going.
So that there is a negativedimension, and you you look at
how much of the New Testament isnegative in the sense of it's
calling people back from uh fromsin or from error.
(31:28):
And I wonder in our preaching,if we if we don't do that, um,
so when we look at a passage, wekind of think, okay, the way
that this is misunderstood inour wider world or in our
Christian context is this.
So we need to guard against thiserror.
Uh, you know, this passagehighlights a particular sin.
We need to think about this.
And um yeah, so that lack ofkind of what we might call
(31:53):
negative.
I mean, it's not negative.
Negative makes it sound bad, butit's it's negative in the sense
of it's the correction.
Correction.
SPEAKER_01 (32:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, just as you say that,I'm thinking uh uh a few years
ago when we saw um somecongregations had a really bumpy
ride through the uh plebiscite.
Yeah.
And um and I'm I'll just putthis out there.
Um I wondered whether that wasbecause in those particular
congregations there hadn't beenclarity on sexuality in in the
(32:24):
preaching in the lead up to it.
Yeah.
Uh whereas I think the churcheswhere there'd been real clarity
beforehand, um uh they rodethrough that choppy waters much
more smoothly.
SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Yeah, that that definitely makes sense.
SPEAKER_01 (32:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:44):
Thanks so much for coming in.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
Peter Orr has been our guest.
He's a lecturer in New Testamentat Sydney's Moore Theological
College and was the mainpresenter at the Nexus
Conference, the Nexus MinistersConference, uh here in Sydney
just a few weeks ago.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on thePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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