December 30, 2025 • 33 mins
Godly Complementarianism - with Paul Grimmond
Living Godly Lives Together - as men and women, young and old, husbands and wives?
All Christians are called to live like Christ. But in Titus 2, the apostle Paul speaks about godliness in strikingly specific ways — addressing older and younger, men and women. Why does he do that? Are age and sex merely cultural categories, or gifts from God that shape the challenges we face in following Jesus?
In this ‘best of episode’ of The Pastor’s Heart, over the Australian Summer break, we are joined by Paul Grimmond, Senior Lecturer at Moore Theological College.
We dig into Titus 2, the most contested passages of the New Testament, and ask how truth and godliness belong together, how Scripture should be read in its own terms, and what this means for discipleship, marriage, ministry and pastoral care today.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and
living godly lives together asmen and women, as young and old,
and as husbands and wives.
All Christians are called tolive like Christ.
But in Titus two, the ApostlePaul speaks about godliness in
strikingly specific ways,addressing older and younger,
(00:22):
men and women.
Why does he do that?
Are age and sex merely culturalcategories, or are they gifts
from God that shape thechallenges and direction we will
take in following Jesus Christ?
In this best of episode of thePastor's Heart over the
Australian summer break, we'rejoined by Paul Grimmman, Senior
Lecturer at Moore TheologicalCollege, and together we're
(00:43):
going to dig into Titus II, oneof the most contested passages
of the New Testament, and askhow do truth and godliness
belong together?
How should Scripture be read onits own terms, and what this
will mean for discipleship, formarriage, for ministry, and for
pastoral care today.
(01:09):
Paul, uh looking at Paul'sletter to Titus and Titus II,
um, it seems to me that some ofthese encouragements to
godliness that are addressed at,if you like, specific
demographics, they're amongstthe most contested verses in the
New Testament.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting, isn'tit?
Um what I find fascinating isthat there's a string of
encouragements to godly living,some of which we just go, of
course that's what you should doas Christians, and then then
read the next one and you go,oh, there's no way.
Like, I'm not sure that that'swhat we should be doing, which I
find really interesting.
So some of them are notcontested at all, some of them
(01:50):
are deeply contested.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Why is that the case?
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
Well, I think it's actually because um anytime
we're reading the Bible, um, Godsays all sorts of things to us,
some of which feel kind of morenormal and natural, and some of
which feel uncomfortable becauseof who I am and the particular
time and moment in history inwhich I live.
So at different points inhistory and at different places,
(02:16):
or even at different points inmy life, something that wasn't
controversial 15 years ago mightfeel controversial to me now
because of the people that Iwork with, or because of my life
experiences, or any one of anumber of different.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Just as you say that I'm remembering that um uh I was
teaching on Titus to a group ofuni students, humanities
students doing the mediaministry.
And uh, by far and away, themost controversial verse was
just that first verse of umPaul, a servant of God, an
apostle of Jesus Christ, for thefaith of God's elect, for their
knowledge of the truth with thedefinite article that leads to
(02:50):
godliness.
That there was a thing calledtruth, and you need to hold on
to that.
And um, it does feel to me likeactually some of the angst over
truth has kind of, I don't know,softened a little over the last
10 years.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's some merit in
that.
I think we isn't it interestinghow as life goes along, what
feels contentious shifts andchanges with kind of what's
going on in our society.
Yeah, and in different culturalgroups, yeah.
In different cultural groups.
So um, a few years ago now I waspreaching on 1 Timothy 2 and the
verse about women uh, you know,not teaching men and being
(03:27):
silent.
And I was talking to a friendabout how I was struggling with
that and trying to work out whatto do within my context and the
kind of difficulty people areexperiencing with that.
And um he said, Oh, he was froma very different ethnic
background for me and aspastoring a church with people
from very different ethnicbackground.
He said, We've done that passagerecently.
Nobody asked a single questionabout that verse.
The teaching part, the teachingpart.
(03:49):
They did ask about um womenshould adorn themselves in
godliness and not with braidedhair or gold or jewels or costly
attire.
He said, that was the verse thatreally created a lot of issue
for us.
And so he said, we had all thesequestions about what does the
word not mean in that verse.
So it's fascinating.
As we read parts of scripturethat feel normal to us, we'll
(04:11):
go, of course that's true.
And at other times, and usuallyit's because of forces from our
culture or our personalexperience push against us, we
start to read much morecautiously and carefully.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
In your talk yesterday, you you spoke about
um uh intrinsic clues in thetext about how we should
approach these verses and thenextrinsic issues.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
Can you just give us that riff?
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think actually,if you think about how
communication occurs in theBible, um, each thing that we
read occurs in the context ofits book.
So in the case of Titus, um, thereason that we actually read
some of these things and go, oh,of course they're just normal
and natural and true can bebecause of our experience.
But if we're Christians, we wantto go, oh, actually, that should
(04:58):
be part of my experience becauseit fits in with the truth that
God's communicating here.
So rather than just feelingcomfortable or uncomfortable
because of my history orcultural moment, I want to be
asking the question, how dothese truths fit in the
unfolding message that God'sspeaking to us at this point in
the scripture?
And so the most important thingas we start reading is what's
internal to the book of Titus?
(05:20):
How does Titus teach me to readthese instructions?
Are they for me, against me?
Are they massageable?
That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
So what are they?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So I would say, well, actually, the very first
verse, um, Paul says that he'san apostle set apart for the
sake of Jesus, but for the forthe sake of God's elect, for
their knowledge of the truth,which accords with godliness.
And that idea of truth andgodliness going hand in hand
occurs right through the letter.
So, chapter one, um, you appointas elders people who are godly
(05:53):
because they have to teach thetruth and teach the life that
goes with it.
And in fact, the false teachersthat they're combating are known
by their lifestyle, who theyare, they deny the truth that
they speak by the way that theylive.
Truth and godliness go hand inhand.
And then for the rest of theletter from chapters two to
four, um, Paul alternatesbetween sets of instructions.
(06:15):
Here are things about how tolive, with declarations of why
we should live that way.
And each time it's about thenature of what God has done for
us in Jesus or the nature ofwhat God is like and his work
through the Spirit in our lives.
Give us an example.
Yeah.
So Titus 2, 1, Paul says, uh,Paul says to Titus, teach what
(06:37):
accords with sound doctrine, buthe doesn't go on to give you
like a lesson on justification.
He says older men are to be liker sober-minded, dignified,
self-controlled, they're to bekind of sound in faith, in love,
and in steadfastness.
But I always expect him to givethe justification lesson.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
You do, you do like because why does he get that
wrong?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Well, we use the word doctrine and we think these
kind of big ideas, but Paul'stalking about what aligns with
doctrine.
I think in scripture, we don'tjust teach truth about who Jesus
is, although that's like that'svitally important, and don't get
me wrong, but Paul thinks thereis a way of life that goes
together with Jesus as Lord, andyou teach the whole package and
(07:17):
they both inform and make senseof each other.
So in chapter two, there's thisset of instructions to older
men, younger men, older women,younger women, to bondservants,
etc.
And then in verses 11 to 14, hecomes back though to the big
principle.
Well, you should do these thingsbecause the grace of God teaches
us to say no to ungodliness andto put on self-controlled and
(07:39):
upright and godly lives.
But what I find really helpfulabout those verses is the way
that they situate where we arein history.
The grace of God has appeared,it's saved you and prepared you
for godliness.
Oh, and by the way, you'rewaiting for the appearing of our
great God and Savior JesusChrist.
You're going to meet him again.
And who is the one you're goingto meet?
(08:01):
The one who died in order toredeem you from lawlessness and
to purify you, to be zealous forgood works.
So God has done this work.
You're going to meet Jesus againin the future.
And now this is the way that youlive as someone who has been
changed by that gospel.
These instructions are thegodliness that goes side by side
(08:22):
with the truth about what Godhas done in Christ.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
What about the extrinsic scriptural cues that
um relate here?
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
As we read a passage, right?
Um, if you if I had read inTitus 2, you know, um, because
Jesus has died for you, andbecause you're going to appear
again before the throne of theone who's died to save you from
lawlessness and save you forgood works, you should brush
your teeth every day, you shouldput away some money into a
retirement savings plan, and youshould do something nice for
(08:53):
yourself once a week.
We would all kind of go, uhBecause it doesn't fit with the
broader term.
It doesn't fit, right?
Now, God can say something once,and we would still need to take
that seriously.
But the reality is that in manyof the instructions in the shape
of the Christian life, it's notjust a one-off drip, but it's a
thing that we see at many otherplaces in scripture.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
I thought that about 1 Timothy 2, that um I I've
wondered if 1 Timothy 2.11 uh or10 11 wasn't in the scriptures,
would actually my pattern ofChristian ministry be different?
And I'm not sure that it would,yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Because it's because there's a framework of teaching.
Absolutely.
I think that's right.
So most of the commandments,even the contested ones, occur
in multiple other places in theNew Testament.
So it's not like this is aone-off, but this seems to be
the pattern of the way that Paultalks about the Christian life.
Um, so I think that thoseextrinsic cues kind of help us
(09:52):
as well to go when Paul talksabout these things.
He's not thinking that he'ssharing something that's like,
this is a cultural thing thatyou just should do for the sake
of evangelism.
He's saying this is the kind oflife that matches with someone
who's trying to follow theLordship of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Well, what's the argument against what you've
just said?
Um, what do the feministtheologians say?
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Yeah, I mean, there's a number of options.
Um some of them will argue aboutthat like evangelistic purpose.
Paul says in this passage, livethis way in order to adorn the
gospel or that would haveadorned the gospel in the first
century, but it doesn't matter.
So if I was to kind ofcharacterize that argument, I'd
say it's something like thethere's these culturally
(10:34):
relative practices that for thesake of the gospel you should
put aside and change becauselife changes, and this is what's
going to honour Jesus now.
That's one kind of framework.
Um, there's another one uh whichI've read where a woman argues
for a particular kind of ethic,a virtue ethic rather than a
kind of ontological,deontological ethic, um, where
she says What's the difference?
(10:55):
Well, so deontology would belike this.
There are these are a set ofcommands, whereas virtue is more
kind of here's a here's ageneral picture of what a person
should be like.
And that picture is a bit kindof rubbery and fluid, but it
describes some kind of goodthings that you should be trying
to do.
And then she argues, well, onthe basis of that, clearly some
of the things here are reallyculturally relative.
And again, it comes back to thecultural relativity piece, I
(11:18):
think.
And some of them actually sayingthis is a harmful teaching.
Absolutely.
So um ElizabethSchussler-Frierenza in the
introduction to the commentaryon the pastoral epistles in her
kind of wisdom commentaryseries, um, says scripture is
this garden full of beauty andreal danger.
(11:38):
And at one point she actuallysays, if you submit yourself to
scripture's worldview, you willbe harmed, basically.
So she sees herself as men andwomen.
Men and women as harmed to beprotected.
It says, if you submit yourselfto the, I think it's the
worldview or to the um picture.
I think you might have the quotethere somewhere, Dominic.
Yeah.
Um she basically says, if yousubmit yourself to this, they'll
(12:02):
be harmed.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
As critical feminist interpretation for well-being,
this wisdom commentary seeks toelaborate the beauty and
fecundity of this scripturegarden and at the same time
point to the harm that it can dowhen one submits to its world of
vision.
SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
Yeah.
So uh they're actually deeplycommitted to the fact that
scripture is it's not it's notGod's book, it's a human book.
Um, they believe that it's uhit's a book that was written by
people trying to do some goodthings and bad things in its
world because it's part of areligious discourse that affects
people, they feel like they needto engage with it.
(12:42):
And even many of them woulddescribe themselves as wanting
to know God or live for God insome way, shape, or form, but
they have a very different viewof scripture.
Uh, and so uh Annette Heisinger,whose commentary's written the
pastoral epistles commentary,she's written a lot in the kind
of pastoral space in the lastkind of 10 to 15 years.
In her commentary, she arguesthat Titus wasn't written by
(13:04):
Paul, it wasn't written toTitus, and it wasn't written
about the church on the islandof Crete.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Okay.
Whereas you're saying, actually,if I know God, then that will
work for my good, for myfamily's good, absolutely, um,
for my husband's good, my wife'sgood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I need to trust him thatthis truth will lead to
forgotliness for all of us.
Yeah, yeah.
Um so what do you want us to do?
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
What do I want us to do?
Well, what does God want us todo?
Yeah, I mean, I mean God wantsus to engage deeply with the
commands that are here in thepassage, right?
Um, and to think about well,what do they mean?
How do we make sense of them inlight of the rest of Scripture?
How do we actually live them outin practice with one another?
Um, and I think that that meanstaking these commandments
(13:58):
seriously and working out how toplace them in their biblical and
and gospel context.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
Okay.
Well, let me bowl them up toyou.
And uh I mean, here's somegodliness commands for young
men, old men, young women, oldwoman, women.
Um You, Titus 2, verse 1, are toproclaim these things consistent
with sound teaching.
Older men are to beself-controlled, worthy of
(14:23):
respect, sensible, sound infaith, love, and in endurance.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
The things that really strike me there, um, the
the idea of being kind ofdignified, sober-minded, etc.
Um, the commentaries talk alittle bit about kind of almost
as an older man wearing ahalter, being restrained.
You know, how we put halters onlittle children to stop them
running away.
Horses.
Yeah, interesting.
And as we get older, um, it'spossible to again enter into
(14:54):
that space where we get a bitcarried away with ourselves,
isn't it?
To be the person who speaks, whosprouts forth their opinion, who
tells others what to do, who'squick to speak.
I've had 20 years of experiencehere and say, or at least 20,
like, you know.
Um, and so uh whereasscripture's giving this picture
of this dignified, sober,restrained man who's sound in
(15:16):
faith and in love.
So a man as he grows older,who's one of their great works
under Christ, and what he'slonging for the spirit to do in
him is to actually grow in lovefor all of these people, for the
young, noisy people who makedecisions too quickly, who don't
respect the years and wisdomthat you have, rather than
feeling the need to assertyourself in that position, what
(15:38):
would it mean to live amongstpeople, to love them well, to
give them an example of whatgodliness likes, and to speak
the truth in love?
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
In the same way, older women are to be reverent
in behavior, not slanderers norslaves to excessive drinking.
Is it only women who havedifficulties, older women with
alcohol?
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't think so.
One of the interesting thingsabout these commands, um, not
some commands in scripture arejust universal, like in
Colossians 3, the Bible justaddresses us as men and women
and says, do these things, don'tdo these things.
In other places, the Biblechooses to direct particular
commands to particular people inparticular stages of life, as
(16:23):
male and female, as older andyounger, just because maybe of
the temptations that occur, orsometimes because there are
specific things about being menand women that affect us in the
way that we do relationship,godliness gets played out in the
shape of life and relationship.
So it's not like you're a manand you're supposed to go, oh,
fantastic, I can get sloshedanytime I like, because that's a
command only for older women.
(16:44):
But he does say for older women,as you're thinking about being
reverent in your behavior, asyou're thinking about having
your outward expression of lifematch your inward commitment to
Jesus.
Here are some things that youmight like to think about.
And so he talks about slanderand the drinking of much wine,
which I wonder if in his contextor he just sees more generally
(17:05):
for older women, maybe these arethings that are temptations.
Now, I was struck by a sisterwho talked to me yesterday about
the fact that that verse hadreally affected her during the
talk yesterday because she says,sometimes when I feel insecure
or difficult, I find myselfgoing to another friend to talk
about that person over there andwhat's going on.
And it's subtle slander, butit's still, I realised it's what
(17:28):
I do and it's something that Ineed to work on.
And I do wonder culturally forus whether particularly life's
stressful, you perhaps get intothat time of life uh when you're
getting a little older andthings are a bit messier.
Sometimes anxiety plays moredeeply.
Have you gotten into the routineof using alcohol at the end of
(17:48):
each day just to manage thatsituation?
Um, is that healthy for you?
Is that going in a good place?
You know, these things they'rejust things that we need to be
thoughtful about as we letgodliness play its way out in
our lives.
SPEAKER_01 (17:59):
Now, the next line is about teaching what is good
to encourage the young women tolove their husbands, and then we
we get into submission.
I'm a little surprised here thatPaul um doesn't have a sentence
about husbands cherishing theirwives.
Yeah.
Because if I was his sub-editor,I would have encouraged him to
deal with that first.
(18:21):
Why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Or did you worry about that too?
Or I mean, I so I chose in mytalk to say something about
husbands yesterday because Ithink in light, and this is one
of those things where you've gotthe extrinsic cues of the rest
of scripture, um, there areother parts of the scripture
where he always talks about thereciprocal relationship he
doesn't choose to do in thisparticular place.
(18:43):
Um, I think that's because hissense of sensitivity around this
particular issue is perhaps alittle different from ours.
But again, it's not and he'sspeaking to his context.
Um, in many places, he talksabout the responsibility of
husbands to love their wives, tolay down their lives, to serve
them with their whole body.
To, you know, that thatEphesians 5 or the picture in
(19:06):
Colossians 3 or whatever else itis, where we are told in
different places how husbandsare to live.
And so it's appropriate for usand not unreasonable to make a
comment about that.
I mean, I found it fascinating.
Um, uh Calvin preaching on thispassage 500 years ago includes
an entire section where headdresses husbands and says, the
(19:28):
fact that your wife's beencalled on to submit to you, do
you think that that gives you aright to be authoritarian or
whatever?
And then he he spends anextended period of time
reminding husbands of the factthat they're called to love
their wives as their own body,to lay down their lives, to
treat her with grace as the coheir in Christ.
Um, because he says this commentis not a claim for men to do
(19:54):
something different or to takerule into their own hands.
As you're hearing commentsdirected to other people.
You could badly misread those ifyou just think, oh, well, this
gives me a right to dot dot dot.
These these instructions occurin the broader shape of
scripture.
And actually, we need to keeptalking about all of the
(20:14):
elements of relationship as wetalk to people about these
things.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Let's um I just want to go into a couple of studies
and we'll link to them in theshow notes.
Um because you quoted them inyour presentation yesterday,
Wilcox, I think.
Um and uh really the womenreporting the highest levels of
satisfaction are in umevangelical church attending
(20:39):
marriages.
That's right.
And yet conversely, on the veryfringe of those congregations,
there's reports of realproblems.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Correct.
Um so one of the things thatWilcox did in his study, which
looks at a broad demographic,not just of evangelicals, but
people who identify as liberalor Catholic and other things and
atheists as well, at massivesample sizes.
And he was looking at differentpopulations and not just what
their beliefs were, but aboutthe regularity of their church
attendance.
(21:08):
And what he found was patternsaround satisfaction in marriage
and also the occurrence ofreported DV incidents or
husbands having issues withanger physically or verbally in
marriage.
Um women who were married to menwho said they were evangelical
but went to church at leastthree times a month reported the
(21:31):
highest levels of satisfactionand the lowest levels of things
like anger and violence.
But the women who are married tomen who identified as
evangelical who rarely or neverwent to church actually reported
as having the highest level ofDV and anger associated with
their marriage and much lowerlevels of satisfaction.
So, I mean, I think that thatstudy is really helpful for us.
(21:55):
You know, I think it reminds usthat as we're teaching the truth
about these things that Godcalls us to in relationship,
like headship and submission,they really need to be situated
in a full-orbed understanding ofwhat God has done for us in
Christ, what men are called toas well as what women are called
to, that relationships areself-sacrificial and they're
(22:18):
about partnering and otherthings as these other
characteristics are played out.
And we need to be very awarethat the people on the edges of
our congregations are likely tobe very vulnerable.
Because if you're a man who hasdecided that you want to live in
an authoritarian way or to be incontrol or whatever else, you
(22:39):
will cherry pick and find thethings in scripture that suit
your position and use thembasically to bolster your
position and relationship withother people.
So we need to teach these thingsin a way that is absolutely
clear that that kind of behavioris abhorrent to God and
abhorrent to us.
And we need to teach women whoare in that context who very
(23:03):
likely don't have very muchother experience to and they
might think that theirexperience is normal, we need to
help them to understand verydeeply that when we're calling
them to submit to their ownhusband, um, we're also calling
them to honor God and servetheir husband.
And if he is acting in ways thatare economically abusive, so
(23:27):
actually, and we need to beconcrete.
If your husband requires you togive an accounting of every cent
that you have spent, or if yourhusband wants to know where you
have been every minute of everyday when he isn't with you, or
if your husband demandssubmission and quotes these
verses at you and tells you thatyou must submit, all of those
(23:50):
things are actually signs thathe is being very unhealthy and
abusive in the relationship.
And if that's happening to you,it would actually honor God for
you to find someone else to talkto about those things and to
seek help.
Because w women who have had menuse scripture and not scripture
(24:11):
actually use a couple ofparticular verses to bolster
their position in theirrelationship will feel like
they're they they are failing ordoing something wrong to speak
out about what's happening tothem.
Um and I think we need to teachvery clearly, not avoid these
passages, but talk concretely.
What does healthy submissionlook like?
(24:31):
What does genuine God-honouringleadership look like?
What are healthy marriages looklike?
And we need to get concrete andspecific in a way that helps
women and to be able to identifywhere they're at and to remind
our whole congregation that somepeople will misuse this stuff.
And as a whole church, we needto be looking out for those who
might be vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
I guess it's not just, if you like, what I'm
broadcasting or what I'mteaching from the front, it's
actually how I'm thinking aboutthe people at the very edge of
the community.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
And I mean I when I think about the people on the
edge of our church, I wish theywere closer.
I mean, I wish they were hearingthe Bible more.
I wish they were coming underthe Lordship of Christ more.
I wish they were more part oflet us not give up meeting
together is some of the habit ofof doing.
Um, but I think you're sayingthe practical application of
(25:23):
this is I ought to be seeing ifI can see what's going on in
their marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
Well, I I think you should be trying to be aware.
Um, looking for those littlesigns of of behavior nervousness
about going out with others.
Um women will express thingslike, Oh, I don't know, I don't
think I can do that.
My husband might not want me todo that.
Or it might not even be thatobvious.
They might just be slightly umnervous or anxious, they might
(25:54):
wear lots of clothing that wouldhide, like long-sleeve clothing
in summer that don't hide abruise.
But it's it isn't just physical,it is spiritual, it's emotional.
Um, so I mean, I'm so thankfulthat our diocese has taken very
seriously safe ministrytraining, and many leaders in
our ministry are trained inthese things.
But I just think as pastors, wewant to keep encouraging our
(26:16):
congregations to be aware thatthese truths can be deeply
misused by people, and we wantto be aware of people who are on
the fringe.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Let's uh keep going on these verses.
Um the uh the older woman is toteach the younger woman they're
to teach what is good so thatthey may encourage the young
women to love their husbands andto love their children.
Um do you need to be taught tolove uh your husband?
(26:48):
You've got a wife, did she needto be taught to love you?
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
Um I think absolutely she needed to be
taught to love me.
I mean you seem like a lovableguy.
Yeah, thanks, Tommy.
I I just think actually we allknow what it's like to be human,
right?
It's one thing I conceptually Ihave an idea of what love is,
and we have lots of lovely songsabout it, and I kind of know it.
(27:12):
But the in the practical ins andouts of doing life, what does it
look like to love my husband andchildren?
It's messy and complex, and somedays it's really hard work.
He's gonna be exasperating.
He's gonna be exasperating.
I mean, I most mothers that I'vespoken to will at some point or
another say to me, I'm not surethat I like my children at the
(27:32):
moment.
There are moments when it'sreally hard work and difficult.
And actually, more broadly, thatwhat does the Bible tell me?
Um actually to love well meansbeing transformed into the
likeness of Christ, which onlyhappens by the work of God's
word and his spirit.
But Titus is telling us it alsohappens through the modeling and
encouragement and engagement ofother brothers and sisters in
(27:54):
our life who are training us todo these kinds of things.
I think it's also helpful and itspeaks to another thing about
our worlds.
You know, um, I think we think,oh, well, being a mother, that's
just about being a woman, andevery woman has maternal
instincts and biological drivesthat help her in this way or
whatever else.
Actually, different women'sexperiences, quite different
from one another.
Some people feel very maternal,some women don't feel very
(28:16):
maternal at all.
Um, whichever one of thoseyou're in, you're gonna need
God's help and the help ofothers to learn how to fulfill
these roles that God's given youin your life if they're the
roles he's given you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:28):
Let me come to verse five.
To be self-controlled, to bepure, to be workers at home,
kind and in submission to theirhusbands.
It's workers at home.
I mean, just imagine and you'reup the road at the theological
college, but just imagine you'rein my job and we're right in the
centre of inner city, Sydney.
Most couples can't afford to owna house here unless they're both
(28:51):
working full-time.
And so is this verse saying,leave this church, go and buy a
cheaper house in the country?
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Yeah.
I mean, I that is such acomplicated question, isn't it?
What would you say if you I Iwould say that is one solution
that may actually be more orless helpful.
So um, you're not just thinkingabout, you know, where could I
afford, but what's going to helpmy godliness?
Where am I going to be involvedin church?
(29:21):
How does life look?
What other responsibilities do Ihave?
I have aging parents in thearea.
I have so just simply packing upand moving somewhere else is a
solution that may work for oneperson that doesn't work for
another.
Deeply what we're trying to dois enact godliness in the
relationships and stuff aroundabout us.
So one of the things that I dofind interesting about thinking
about that workers-at-homephrase, if you go back to kind
(29:44):
of the ancient world and theancient literature.
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
I mean, that that assumption of go live in the
country is really working on theassumption that we should have
one provider income and itshould be.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
But whereas I don't think that's where you're going.
No, it's not where I'm going atall.
I I think in the ancient worlds,and in fact, really up until the
time of the IndustrialRevolution, um, the household
income and functioning andeverything happened because both
both spouses were involved inthe life of the household, if I
can put it like that.
Um, very interestingly, there'sa guy called Xenophon, writing
(30:17):
about 400 years before our NewTestament, um, who writes a
little section about kind ofhousehold management where he
talks about um a wife being uhlearning to run her households.
And the tasks include spendingall of the household finances,
making sure that suppliers areup to date, looking after and
overseeing the slaves and thebondservants, looking after the
(30:38):
welfare of people, basicallyrunning small business from the
front room where she's teachingher servants how to spin and
then making cloth and thenselling that at the markets and
doing the whole Proverbs 31.
The whole Proverbs 31 thing.
Like our picture of kind of, oh,she stays at home and she cooks
and cleans.
That's a Western 1950sanachronism.
Um, the whole economic life ofthe household depended on him
(31:02):
and her working togetherfaithfully in the old in that
age and time.
And so when it talks aboutworking at home, that was an
extremely honored place to be,and particularly in scripture,
but even in the in the broaderscope of things, raising
children, uh teaching them,training them to love the Lord,
(31:22):
um, looking over probably thehow financial management of the
household, a whole bunch ofother things were part of her
scope.
And the scriptures talk aboutnot just within her household,
but a household bringingblessing to the community around
her, washing the feet of thesaints, looking after the needy
in 1 Timothy 5, for example.
Um, our conception of working athome versus biblical conception
(31:42):
is very apart from each other.
So then you got asked, what dowe do with that now?
You have to translate that abit, I think.
Do you want to Okay?
Yeah, translate it.
Yeah, so I'm thinking umpost-industrial revolution, um,
we work much more in a kind ofliquid economy.
So I have to earn money in orderto spend it.
That's the way that lifefunctions.
I need enough money to be ableto function as a household.
(32:05):
That may require both of usworking.
Um, how we manage that aroundour desire to see our households
um grow and our kids love Jesusand other things is a really
important thing to think about.
Um, there is really goodresearch that certainly between
the ages of naught and three,um, primary attention from a
(32:26):
primary caregiver is reallysignificant for human
development and growth.
So for a woman to actually beavailable enough when her
children, particularly areyoung, to be able to attend to
them, to spend time with them,to breastfeed, to be in contact
with them, all of the youngchildcare literature suggests
that those are all reallyexcellent things.
(32:48):
So we want to be careful aboutrushing straight back to work
for the sake of my career.
Um, long term, both men andwomen are going to need to work.
But I think even the conceptthat we have that we cling so
tightly to about careerprogression is probably just
putting the focus in slightlythe wrong place.
I think the Bible tells us thatwe work in order to provide for
(33:11):
our needs, provide for those whoare in need, and to love people
through the work that we do.
But that happens in the contextof many responsibilities.
And clearly, loving and caringfor your household and raising
children, that's a very preciousthing in God's sight.
SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us
today.
Thanks, Tom.
My guest on The Pastor's Heart,Paul Grimond, uh, senior
lecturer at Sydney's MooreTheological College, and uh the
keynote speaker at yesterday'sPriscilla and Aquila conference
there.
This is Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on The Pastor's Heart.
It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and
living godly lives together asmen and women, as young and old,
and as husbands and wives.
All Christians are called tolive like Christ.
But in Titus two, the ApostlePaul speaks about godliness in
strikingly specific ways,addressing older and younger,
(00:22):
men and women.
Why does he do that?
Are age and sex merely culturalcategories, or are they gifts
from God that shape thechallenges and direction we will
take in following Jesus Christ?
In this best of episode of thePastor's Heart over the
Australian summer break, we'rejoined by Paul Grimmman, Senior
Lecturer at Moore TheologicalCollege, and together we're
(00:43):
going to dig into Titus II, oneof the most contested passages
of the New Testament, and askhow do truth and godliness
belong together?
How should Scripture be read onits own terms, and what this
will mean for discipleship, formarriage, for ministry, and for
pastoral care today.
(01:09):
Paul, uh looking at Paul'sletter to Titus and Titus II,
um, it seems to me that some ofthese encouragements to
godliness that are addressed at,if you like, specific
demographics, they're amongstthe most contested verses in the
New Testament.
SPEAKER_00 (01:29):
Yeah.
Well, it's interesting, isn'tit?
Um what I find fascinating isthat there's a string of
encouragements to godly living,some of which we just go, of
course that's what you should doas Christians, and then then
read the next one and you go,oh, there's no way.
Like, I'm not sure that that'swhat we should be doing, which I
find really interesting.
So some of them are notcontested at all, some of them
(01:50):
are deeply contested.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Why is that the case?
SPEAKER_00 (01:55):
Well, I think it's actually because um anytime
we're reading the Bible, um, Godsays all sorts of things to us,
some of which feel kind of morenormal and natural, and some of
which feel uncomfortable becauseof who I am and the particular
time and moment in history inwhich I live.
So at different points inhistory and at different places,
(02:16):
or even at different points inmy life, something that wasn't
controversial 15 years ago mightfeel controversial to me now
because of the people that Iwork with, or because of my life
experiences, or any one of anumber of different.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Just as you say that I'm remembering that um uh I was
teaching on Titus to a group ofuni students, humanities
students doing the mediaministry.
And uh, by far and away, themost controversial verse was
just that first verse of umPaul, a servant of God, an
apostle of Jesus Christ, for thefaith of God's elect, for their
knowledge of the truth with thedefinite article that leads to
(02:50):
godliness.
That there was a thing calledtruth, and you need to hold on
to that.
And um, it does feel to me likeactually some of the angst over
truth has kind of, I don't know,softened a little over the last
10 years.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's some merit in
that.
I think we isn't it interestinghow as life goes along, what
feels contentious shifts andchanges with kind of what's
going on in our society.
Yeah, and in different culturalgroups, yeah.
In different cultural groups.
So um, a few years ago now I waspreaching on 1 Timothy 2 and the
verse about women uh, you know,not teaching men and being
(03:27):
silent.
And I was talking to a friendabout how I was struggling with
that and trying to work out whatto do within my context and the
kind of difficulty people areexperiencing with that.
And um he said, Oh, he was froma very different ethnic
background for me and aspastoring a church with people
from very different ethnicbackground.
He said, We've done that passagerecently.
Nobody asked a single questionabout that verse.
The teaching part, the teachingpart.
(03:49):
They did ask about um womenshould adorn themselves in
godliness and not with braidedhair or gold or jewels or costly
attire.
He said, that was the verse thatreally created a lot of issue
for us.
And so he said, we had all thesequestions about what does the
word not mean in that verse.
So it's fascinating.
As we read parts of scripturethat feel normal to us, we'll
(04:11):
go, of course that's true.
And at other times, and usuallyit's because of forces from our
culture or our personalexperience push against us, we
start to read much morecautiously and carefully.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
In your talk yesterday, you you spoke about
um uh intrinsic clues in thetext about how we should
approach these verses and thenextrinsic issues.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
Can you just give us that riff?
SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I think actually,if you think about how
communication occurs in theBible, um, each thing that we
read occurs in the context ofits book.
So in the case of Titus, um, thereason that we actually read
some of these things and go, oh,of course they're just normal
and natural and true can bebecause of our experience.
But if we're Christians, we wantto go, oh, actually, that should
(04:58):
be part of my experience becauseit fits in with the truth that
God's communicating here.
So rather than just feelingcomfortable or uncomfortable
because of my history orcultural moment, I want to be
asking the question, how dothese truths fit in the
unfolding message that God'sspeaking to us at this point in
the scripture?
And so the most important thingas we start reading is what's
internal to the book of Titus?
(05:20):
How does Titus teach me to readthese instructions?
Are they for me, against me?
Are they massageable?
That kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
So what are they?
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
So I would say, well, actually, the very first
verse, um, Paul says that he'san apostle set apart for the
sake of Jesus, but for the forthe sake of God's elect, for
their knowledge of the truth,which accords with godliness.
And that idea of truth andgodliness going hand in hand
occurs right through the letter.
So, chapter one, um, you appointas elders people who are godly
(05:53):
because they have to teach thetruth and teach the life that
goes with it.
And in fact, the false teachersthat they're combating are known
by their lifestyle, who theyare, they deny the truth that
they speak by the way that theylive.
Truth and godliness go hand inhand.
And then for the rest of theletter from chapters two to
four, um, Paul alternatesbetween sets of instructions.
(06:15):
Here are things about how tolive, with declarations of why
we should live that way.
And each time it's about thenature of what God has done for
us in Jesus or the nature ofwhat God is like and his work
through the Spirit in our lives.
Give us an example.
Yeah.
So Titus 2, 1, Paul says, uh,Paul says to Titus, teach what
(06:37):
accords with sound doctrine, buthe doesn't go on to give you
like a lesson on justification.
He says older men are to be liker sober-minded, dignified,
self-controlled, they're to bekind of sound in faith, in love,
and in steadfastness.
But I always expect him to givethe justification lesson.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
You do, you do like because why does he get that
wrong?
SPEAKER_00 (06:57):
Well, we use the word doctrine and we think these
kind of big ideas, but Paul'stalking about what aligns with
doctrine.
I think in scripture, we don'tjust teach truth about who Jesus
is, although that's like that'svitally important, and don't get
me wrong, but Paul thinks thereis a way of life that goes
together with Jesus as Lord, andyou teach the whole package and
(07:17):
they both inform and make senseof each other.
So in chapter two, there's thisset of instructions to older
men, younger men, older women,younger women, to bondservants,
etc.
And then in verses 11 to 14, hecomes back though to the big
principle.
Well, you should do these thingsbecause the grace of God teaches
us to say no to ungodliness andto put on self-controlled and
(07:39):
upright and godly lives.
But what I find really helpfulabout those verses is the way
that they situate where we arein history.
The grace of God has appeared,it's saved you and prepared you
for godliness.
Oh, and by the way, you'rewaiting for the appearing of our
great God and Savior JesusChrist.
You're going to meet him again.
And who is the one you're goingto meet?
(08:01):
The one who died in order toredeem you from lawlessness and
to purify you, to be zealous forgood works.
So God has done this work.
You're going to meet Jesus againin the future.
And now this is the way that youlive as someone who has been
changed by that gospel.
These instructions are thegodliness that goes side by side
(08:22):
with the truth about what Godhas done in Christ.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
What about the extrinsic scriptural cues that
um relate here?
SPEAKER_00 (08:30):
As we read a passage, right?
Um, if you if I had read inTitus 2, you know, um, because
Jesus has died for you, andbecause you're going to appear
again before the throne of theone who's died to save you from
lawlessness and save you forgood works, you should brush
your teeth every day, you shouldput away some money into a
retirement savings plan, and youshould do something nice for
(08:53):
yourself once a week.
We would all kind of go, uhBecause it doesn't fit with the
broader term.
It doesn't fit, right?
Now, God can say something once,and we would still need to take
that seriously.
But the reality is that in manyof the instructions in the shape
of the Christian life, it's notjust a one-off drip, but it's a
thing that we see at many otherplaces in scripture.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
I thought that about 1 Timothy 2, that um I I've
wondered if 1 Timothy 2.11 uh or10 11 wasn't in the scriptures,
would actually my pattern ofChristian ministry be different?
And I'm not sure that it would,yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
Because it's because there's a framework of teaching.
Absolutely.
I think that's right.
So most of the commandments,even the contested ones, occur
in multiple other places in theNew Testament.
So it's not like this is aone-off, but this seems to be
the pattern of the way that Paultalks about the Christian life.
Um, so I think that thoseextrinsic cues kind of help us
(09:52):
as well to go when Paul talksabout these things.
He's not thinking that he'ssharing something that's like,
this is a cultural thing thatyou just should do for the sake
of evangelism.
He's saying this is the kind oflife that matches with someone
who's trying to follow theLordship of Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (10:08):
Well, what's the argument against what you've
just said?
Um, what do the feministtheologians say?
SPEAKER_00 (10:14):
Yeah, I mean, there's a number of options.
Um some of them will argue aboutthat like evangelistic purpose.
Paul says in this passage, livethis way in order to adorn the
gospel or that would haveadorned the gospel in the first
century, but it doesn't matter.
So if I was to kind ofcharacterize that argument, I'd
say it's something like thethere's these culturally
(10:34):
relative practices that for thesake of the gospel you should
put aside and change becauselife changes, and this is what's
going to honour Jesus now.
That's one kind of framework.
Um, there's another one uh whichI've read where a woman argues
for a particular kind of ethic,a virtue ethic rather than a
kind of ontological,deontological ethic, um, where
she says What's the difference?
(10:55):
Well, so deontology would belike this.
There are these are a set ofcommands, whereas virtue is more
kind of here's a here's ageneral picture of what a person
should be like.
And that picture is a bit kindof rubbery and fluid, but it
describes some kind of goodthings that you should be trying
to do.
And then she argues, well, onthe basis of that, clearly some
of the things here are reallyculturally relative.
And again, it comes back to thecultural relativity piece, I
(11:18):
think.
And some of them actually sayingthis is a harmful teaching.
Absolutely.
So um ElizabethSchussler-Frierenza in the
introduction to the commentaryon the pastoral epistles in her
kind of wisdom commentaryseries, um, says scripture is
this garden full of beauty andreal danger.
(11:38):
And at one point she actuallysays, if you submit yourself to
scripture's worldview, you willbe harmed, basically.
So she sees herself as men andwomen.
Men and women as harmed to beprotected.
It says, if you submit yourselfto the, I think it's the
worldview or to the um picture.
I think you might have the quotethere somewhere, Dominic.
Yeah.
Um she basically says, if yousubmit yourself to this, they'll
(12:02):
be harmed.
SPEAKER_01 (12:02):
As critical feminist interpretation for well-being,
this wisdom commentary seeks toelaborate the beauty and
fecundity of this scripturegarden and at the same time
point to the harm that it can dowhen one submits to its world of
vision.
SPEAKER_00 (12:20):
Yeah.
So uh they're actually deeplycommitted to the fact that
scripture is it's not it's notGod's book, it's a human book.
Um, they believe that it's uhit's a book that was written by
people trying to do some goodthings and bad things in its
world because it's part of areligious discourse that affects
people, they feel like they needto engage with it.
(12:42):
And even many of them woulddescribe themselves as wanting
to know God or live for God insome way, shape, or form, but
they have a very different viewof scripture.
Uh, and so uh Annette Heisinger,whose commentary's written the
pastoral epistles commentary,she's written a lot in the kind
of pastoral space in the lastkind of 10 to 15 years.
In her commentary, she arguesthat Titus wasn't written by
(13:04):
Paul, it wasn't written toTitus, and it wasn't written
about the church on the islandof Crete.
SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Okay.
Whereas you're saying, actually,if I know God, then that will
work for my good, for myfamily's good, absolutely, um,
for my husband's good, my wife'sgood.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I need to trust him thatthis truth will lead to
forgotliness for all of us.
Yeah, yeah.
Um so what do you want us to do?
SPEAKER_00 (13:38):
What do I want us to do?
Well, what does God want us todo?
Yeah, I mean, I mean God wantsus to engage deeply with the
commands that are here in thepassage, right?
Um, and to think about well,what do they mean?
How do we make sense of them inlight of the rest of Scripture?
How do we actually live them outin practice with one another?
Um, and I think that that meanstaking these commandments
(13:58):
seriously and working out how toplace them in their biblical and
and gospel context.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
Okay.
Well, let me bowl them up toyou.
And uh I mean, here's somegodliness commands for young
men, old men, young women, oldwoman, women.
Um You, Titus 2, verse 1, are toproclaim these things consistent
with sound teaching.
Older men are to beself-controlled, worthy of
(14:23):
respect, sensible, sound infaith, love, and in endurance.
SPEAKER_00 (14:30):
The things that really strike me there, um, the
the idea of being kind ofdignified, sober-minded, etc.
Um, the commentaries talk alittle bit about kind of almost
as an older man wearing ahalter, being restrained.
You know, how we put halters onlittle children to stop them
running away.
Horses.
Yeah, interesting.
And as we get older, um, it'spossible to again enter into
(14:54):
that space where we get a bitcarried away with ourselves,
isn't it?
To be the person who speaks, whosprouts forth their opinion, who
tells others what to do, who'squick to speak.
I've had 20 years of experiencehere and say, or at least 20,
like, you know.
Um, and so uh whereasscripture's giving this picture
of this dignified, sober,restrained man who's sound in
(15:16):
faith and in love.
So a man as he grows older,who's one of their great works
under Christ, and what he'slonging for the spirit to do in
him is to actually grow in lovefor all of these people, for the
young, noisy people who makedecisions too quickly, who don't
respect the years and wisdomthat you have, rather than
feeling the need to assertyourself in that position, what
(15:38):
would it mean to live amongstpeople, to love them well, to
give them an example of whatgodliness likes, and to speak
the truth in love?
SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
In the same way, older women are to be reverent
in behavior, not slanderers norslaves to excessive drinking.
Is it only women who havedifficulties, older women with
alcohol?
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
Yeah.
I mean, I don't think so.
One of the interesting thingsabout these commands, um, not
some commands in scripture arejust universal, like in
Colossians 3, the Bible justaddresses us as men and women
and says, do these things, don'tdo these things.
In other places, the Biblechooses to direct particular
commands to particular people inparticular stages of life, as
(16:23):
male and female, as older andyounger, just because maybe of
the temptations that occur, orsometimes because there are
specific things about being menand women that affect us in the
way that we do relationship,godliness gets played out in the
shape of life and relationship.
So it's not like you're a manand you're supposed to go, oh,
fantastic, I can get sloshedanytime I like, because that's a
command only for older women.
(16:44):
But he does say for older women,as you're thinking about being
reverent in your behavior, asyou're thinking about having
your outward expression of lifematch your inward commitment to
Jesus.
Here are some things that youmight like to think about.
And so he talks about slanderand the drinking of much wine,
which I wonder if in his contextor he just sees more generally
(17:05):
for older women, maybe these arethings that are temptations.
Now, I was struck by a sisterwho talked to me yesterday about
the fact that that verse hadreally affected her during the
talk yesterday because she says,sometimes when I feel insecure
or difficult, I find myselfgoing to another friend to talk
about that person over there andwhat's going on.
And it's subtle slander, butit's still, I realised it's what
(17:28):
I do and it's something that Ineed to work on.
And I do wonder culturally forus whether particularly life's
stressful, you perhaps get intothat time of life uh when you're
getting a little older andthings are a bit messier.
Sometimes anxiety plays moredeeply.
Have you gotten into the routineof using alcohol at the end of
(17:48):
each day just to manage thatsituation?
Um, is that healthy for you?
Is that going in a good place?
You know, these things they'rejust things that we need to be
thoughtful about as we letgodliness play its way out in
our lives.
SPEAKER_01 (17:59):
Now, the next line is about teaching what is good
to encourage the young women tolove their husbands, and then we
we get into submission.
I'm a little surprised here thatPaul um doesn't have a sentence
about husbands cherishing theirwives.
Yeah.
Because if I was his sub-editor,I would have encouraged him to
deal with that first.
(18:21):
Why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Or did you worry about that too?
Or I mean, I so I chose in mytalk to say something about
husbands yesterday because Ithink in light, and this is one
of those things where you've gotthe extrinsic cues of the rest
of scripture, um, there areother parts of the scripture
where he always talks about thereciprocal relationship he
doesn't choose to do in thisparticular place.
(18:43):
Um, I think that's because hissense of sensitivity around this
particular issue is perhaps alittle different from ours.
But again, it's not and he'sspeaking to his context.
Um, in many places, he talksabout the responsibility of
husbands to love their wives, tolay down their lives, to serve
them with their whole body.
To, you know, that thatEphesians 5 or the picture in
(19:06):
Colossians 3 or whatever else itis, where we are told in
different places how husbandsare to live.
And so it's appropriate for usand not unreasonable to make a
comment about that.
I mean, I found it fascinating.
Um, uh Calvin preaching on thispassage 500 years ago includes
an entire section where headdresses husbands and says, the
(19:28):
fact that your wife's beencalled on to submit to you, do
you think that that gives you aright to be authoritarian or
whatever?
And then he he spends anextended period of time
reminding husbands of the factthat they're called to love
their wives as their own body,to lay down their lives, to
treat her with grace as the coheir in Christ.
Um, because he says this commentis not a claim for men to do
(19:54):
something different or to takerule into their own hands.
As you're hearing commentsdirected to other people.
You could badly misread those ifyou just think, oh, well, this
gives me a right to dot dot dot.
These these instructions occurin the broader shape of
scripture.
And actually, we need to keeptalking about all of the
(20:14):
elements of relationship as wetalk to people about these
things.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
Let's um I just want to go into a couple of studies
and we'll link to them in theshow notes.
Um because you quoted them inyour presentation yesterday,
Wilcox, I think.
Um and uh really the womenreporting the highest levels of
satisfaction are in umevangelical church attending
(20:39):
marriages.
That's right.
And yet conversely, on the veryfringe of those congregations,
there's reports of realproblems.
SPEAKER_00 (20:47):
Correct.
Um so one of the things thatWilcox did in his study, which
looks at a broad demographic,not just of evangelicals, but
people who identify as liberalor Catholic and other things and
atheists as well, at massivesample sizes.
And he was looking at differentpopulations and not just what
their beliefs were, but aboutthe regularity of their church
attendance.
(21:08):
And what he found was patternsaround satisfaction in marriage
and also the occurrence ofreported DV incidents or
husbands having issues withanger physically or verbally in
marriage.
Um women who were married to menwho said they were evangelical
but went to church at leastthree times a month reported the
(21:31):
highest levels of satisfactionand the lowest levels of things
like anger and violence.
But the women who are married tomen who identified as
evangelical who rarely or neverwent to church actually reported
as having the highest level ofDV and anger associated with
their marriage and much lowerlevels of satisfaction.
So, I mean, I think that thatstudy is really helpful for us.
(21:55):
You know, I think it reminds usthat as we're teaching the truth
about these things that Godcalls us to in relationship,
like headship and submission,they really need to be situated
in a full-orbed understanding ofwhat God has done for us in
Christ, what men are called toas well as what women are called
to, that relationships areself-sacrificial and they're
(22:18):
about partnering and otherthings as these other
characteristics are played out.
And we need to be very awarethat the people on the edges of
our congregations are likely tobe very vulnerable.
Because if you're a man who hasdecided that you want to live in
an authoritarian way or to be incontrol or whatever else, you
(22:39):
will cherry pick and find thethings in scripture that suit
your position and use thembasically to bolster your
position and relationship withother people.
So we need to teach these thingsin a way that is absolutely
clear that that kind of behavioris abhorrent to God and
abhorrent to us.
And we need to teach women whoare in that context who very
(23:03):
likely don't have very muchother experience to and they
might think that theirexperience is normal, we need to
help them to understand verydeeply that when we're calling
them to submit to their ownhusband, um, we're also calling
them to honor God and servetheir husband.
And if he is acting in ways thatare economically abusive, so
(23:27):
actually, and we need to beconcrete.
If your husband requires you togive an accounting of every cent
that you have spent, or if yourhusband wants to know where you
have been every minute of everyday when he isn't with you, or
if your husband demandssubmission and quotes these
verses at you and tells you thatyou must submit, all of those
(23:50):
things are actually signs thathe is being very unhealthy and
abusive in the relationship.
And if that's happening to you,it would actually honor God for
you to find someone else to talkto about those things and to
seek help.
Because w women who have had menuse scripture and not scripture
(24:11):
actually use a couple ofparticular verses to bolster
their position in theirrelationship will feel like
they're they they are failing ordoing something wrong to speak
out about what's happening tothem.
Um and I think we need to teachvery clearly, not avoid these
passages, but talk concretely.
What does healthy submissionlook like?
(24:31):
What does genuine God-honouringleadership look like?
What are healthy marriages looklike?
And we need to get concrete andspecific in a way that helps
women and to be able to identifywhere they're at and to remind
our whole congregation that somepeople will misuse this stuff.
And as a whole church, we needto be looking out for those who
might be vulnerable.
SPEAKER_01 (24:52):
I guess it's not just, if you like, what I'm
broadcasting or what I'mteaching from the front, it's
actually how I'm thinking aboutthe people at the very edge of
the community.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (25:02):
And I mean I when I think about the people on the
edge of our church, I wish theywere closer.
I mean, I wish they were hearingthe Bible more.
I wish they were coming underthe Lordship of Christ more.
I wish they were more part oflet us not give up meeting
together is some of the habit ofof doing.
Um, but I think you're sayingthe practical application of
(25:23):
this is I ought to be seeing ifI can see what's going on in
their marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
Well, I I think you should be trying to be aware.
Um, looking for those littlesigns of of behavior nervousness
about going out with others.
Um women will express thingslike, Oh, I don't know, I don't
think I can do that.
My husband might not want me todo that.
Or it might not even be thatobvious.
They might just be slightly umnervous or anxious, they might
(25:54):
wear lots of clothing that wouldhide, like long-sleeve clothing
in summer that don't hide abruise.
But it's it isn't just physical,it is spiritual, it's emotional.
Um, so I mean, I'm so thankfulthat our diocese has taken very
seriously safe ministrytraining, and many leaders in
our ministry are trained inthese things.
But I just think as pastors, wewant to keep encouraging our
(26:16):
congregations to be aware thatthese truths can be deeply
misused by people, and we wantto be aware of people who are on
the fringe.
SPEAKER_01 (26:24):
Let's uh keep going on these verses.
Um the uh the older woman is toteach the younger woman they're
to teach what is good so thatthey may encourage the young
women to love their husbands andto love their children.
Um do you need to be taught tolove uh your husband?
(26:48):
You've got a wife, did she needto be taught to love you?
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
Um I think absolutely she needed to be
taught to love me.
I mean you seem like a lovableguy.
Yeah, thanks, Tommy.
I I just think actually we allknow what it's like to be human,
right?
It's one thing I conceptually Ihave an idea of what love is,
and we have lots of lovely songsabout it, and I kind of know it.
(27:12):
But the in the practical ins andouts of doing life, what does it
look like to love my husband andchildren?
It's messy and complex, and somedays it's really hard work.
He's gonna be exasperating.
He's gonna be exasperating.
I mean, I most mothers that I'vespoken to will at some point or
another say to me, I'm not surethat I like my children at the
(27:32):
moment.
There are moments when it'sreally hard work and difficult.
And actually, more broadly, thatwhat does the Bible tell me?
Um actually to love well meansbeing transformed into the
likeness of Christ, which onlyhappens by the work of God's
word and his spirit.
But Titus is telling us it alsohappens through the modeling and
encouragement and engagement ofother brothers and sisters in
(27:54):
our life who are training us todo these kinds of things.
I think it's also helpful and itspeaks to another thing about
our worlds.
You know, um, I think we think,oh, well, being a mother, that's
just about being a woman, andevery woman has maternal
instincts and biological drivesthat help her in this way or
whatever else.
Actually, different women'sexperiences, quite different
from one another.
Some people feel very maternal,some women don't feel very
(28:16):
maternal at all.
Um, whichever one of thoseyou're in, you're gonna need
God's help and the help ofothers to learn how to fulfill
these roles that God's given youin your life if they're the
roles he's given you.
SPEAKER_01 (28:28):
Let me come to verse five.
To be self-controlled, to bepure, to be workers at home,
kind and in submission to theirhusbands.
It's workers at home.
I mean, just imagine and you'reup the road at the theological
college, but just imagine you'rein my job and we're right in the
centre of inner city, Sydney.
Most couples can't afford to owna house here unless they're both
(28:51):
working full-time.
And so is this verse saying,leave this church, go and buy a
cheaper house in the country?
SPEAKER_00 (29:00):
Yeah.
I mean, I that is such acomplicated question, isn't it?
What would you say if you I Iwould say that is one solution
that may actually be more orless helpful.
So um, you're not just thinkingabout, you know, where could I
afford, but what's going to helpmy godliness?
Where am I going to be involvedin church?
(29:21):
How does life look?
What other responsibilities do Ihave?
I have aging parents in thearea.
I have so just simply packing upand moving somewhere else is a
solution that may work for oneperson that doesn't work for
another.
Deeply what we're trying to dois enact godliness in the
relationships and stuff aroundabout us.
So one of the things that I dofind interesting about thinking
about that workers-at-homephrase, if you go back to kind
(29:44):
of the ancient world and theancient literature.
SPEAKER_01 (29:46):
I mean, that that assumption of go live in the
country is really working on theassumption that we should have
one provider income and itshould be.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
But whereas I don't think that's where you're going.
No, it's not where I'm going atall.
I I think in the ancient worlds,and in fact, really up until the
time of the IndustrialRevolution, um, the household
income and functioning andeverything happened because both
both spouses were involved inthe life of the household, if I
can put it like that.
Um, very interestingly, there'sa guy called Xenophon, writing
(30:17):
about 400 years before our NewTestament, um, who writes a
little section about kind ofhousehold management where he
talks about um a wife being uhlearning to run her households.
And the tasks include spendingall of the household finances,
making sure that suppliers areup to date, looking after and
overseeing the slaves and thebondservants, looking after the
(30:38):
welfare of people, basicallyrunning small business from the
front room where she's teachingher servants how to spin and
then making cloth and thenselling that at the markets and
doing the whole Proverbs 31.
The whole Proverbs 31 thing.
Like our picture of kind of, oh,she stays at home and she cooks
and cleans.
That's a Western 1950sanachronism.
Um, the whole economic life ofthe household depended on him
(31:02):
and her working togetherfaithfully in the old in that
age and time.
And so when it talks aboutworking at home, that was an
extremely honored place to be,and particularly in scripture,
but even in the in the broaderscope of things, raising
children, uh teaching them,training them to love the Lord,
(31:22):
um, looking over probably thehow financial management of the
household, a whole bunch ofother things were part of her
scope.
And the scriptures talk aboutnot just within her household,
but a household bringingblessing to the community around
her, washing the feet of thesaints, looking after the needy
in 1 Timothy 5, for example.
Um, our conception of working athome versus biblical conception
(31:42):
is very apart from each other.
So then you got asked, what dowe do with that now?
You have to translate that abit, I think.
Do you want to Okay?
Yeah, translate it.
Yeah, so I'm thinking umpost-industrial revolution, um,
we work much more in a kind ofliquid economy.
So I have to earn money in orderto spend it.
That's the way that lifefunctions.
I need enough money to be ableto function as a household.
(32:05):
That may require both of usworking.
Um, how we manage that aroundour desire to see our households
um grow and our kids love Jesusand other things is a really
important thing to think about.
Um, there is really goodresearch that certainly between
the ages of naught and three,um, primary attention from a
(32:26):
primary caregiver is reallysignificant for human
development and growth.
So for a woman to actually beavailable enough when her
children, particularly areyoung, to be able to attend to
them, to spend time with them,to breastfeed, to be in contact
with them, all of the youngchildcare literature suggests
that those are all reallyexcellent things.
(32:48):
So we want to be careful aboutrushing straight back to work
for the sake of my career.
Um, long term, both men andwomen are going to need to work.
But I think even the conceptthat we have that we cling so
tightly to about careerprogression is probably just
putting the focus in slightlythe wrong place.
I think the Bible tells us thatwe work in order to provide for
(33:11):
our needs, provide for those whoare in need, and to love people
through the work that we do.
But that happens in the contextof many responsibilities.
And clearly, loving and caringfor your household and raising
children, that's a very preciousthing in God's sight.
SPEAKER_01 (33:26):
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us
today.
Thanks, Tom.
My guest on The Pastor's Heart,Paul Grimond, uh, senior
lecturer at Sydney's MooreTheological College, and uh the
keynote speaker at yesterday'sPriscilla and Aquila conference
there.
This is Dominic Steele.
We'll look forward to yourcompany next Tuesday afternoon
on The Pastor's Heart.
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