Wisdom for pastors seeking to preach and lead well in a post-Christian age.
So much of our culture judges events in isolation — a single moment, a single failure, a single decision — detached from what led to it and what flows from it. But history doesn’t work like that. Events emerge from long trajectories, and they reshape the future in ways no one fully controls or intends.
We’re joined by Archie Poulos, Head of the Ministry Department at Moore Theological College, to reflect on Remaking the World: How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West by Andrew Wilson.
Wilson’s argument isn’t that everything changed overnight in 1776, but that the events clustered around that year give us a window into the forces that have shaped the WEIRDER world we now inhabit — Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, Democratic, Ex-Christian and Romantic.
We explore why reading history as an ecosystem rather than isolated episodes matters, why Romanticism isn’t just a past movement but our present operating system, and how Christian faith — offers a deeper, more hopeful way to understand our moment.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:08):
How did we get here?
How 1776 created thepost-Christian West.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's Dominic Steele and Wisdomfor Pastors Seeking to Preach
and Lead Win a P-Christian age.
Today we're learning fromhistory and the window given us
by the year 1776.
Andrew Wilson's book, Remakingthe World, How 1776 Created the
(00:32):
Post-Christian West is muchdiscussed at the moment.
Wilson's thesis, not thathistory turned on a single
calendar date, but that theevents clustered around the year
1776 help us understand andexplain our world today.
He has the seven-letter acronym,Weirda.
(00:53):
W.
Western.
James Cook led the way inmapping the world.
E.
Educated.
Immanuel Kant's early criticalproject and Edward Gibbon's
Decline and Fall of the RomanEmpire were released.
I industrialized.
James Watts' improved steamengine became commercially
(01:15):
viable and deployable.
R.
Rich.
Adam Smith in the Wealth ofNations articulates the logic of
markets, productivity andgrowth, and D.
Democratic.
With the War of Independence inAmerica and the Declaration of
Independence, for the firsttime, a modern nation explicitly
(01:36):
grounds political authority inthe people rather than in
monarchy or divine right.
And E ex-Christian,Enlightenment deism and
skepticism crystallize,symbolized by Benjamin
Franklin's edit of theDeclaration's language, the
Declaration of Independencelanguage, from sacred and
(01:59):
undeniable to self-evident.
And finally, R, romantic.
Truth and meaning areincreasingly sought within the
self.
And Russo's Reveries of theSolitary Walker is the example
there.
We are joined by the head of theCenter for Ministry Development
at Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege, Archie Poulos.
(02:20):
Archie told me that I shouldread this book over summer.
Archie, uh let's start with yourpastor's heart.
And uh while I'm imagining thatreading this book for you
intellectually was asstimulating for you as it was
for me, I'm I'm actuallyinterested in what it did for
your pastor's heart.
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Oh, thanks, Dominic.
Yeah, I uh I read books not justto get information or to know
more stuff because that's that'spretty much a waste of time.
Uh the reason for doing it is sothat we can understand what God
might be doing in his world, howhe might help his people to live
in the world, and how he mightsee more people saved.
And so we you know, we're in anage now where so much is viewed
(03:04):
as an episode or as an event.
So something happens in ourworld, and people sit back and
they assess, is this a good or abad thing?
How do I respond to that?
And so everything is based on anevent.
But we're Christian people, andwe know that God started history
in Genesis, He's going to bringit to an end in Revelation, and
He's also told us why things arehappening.
(03:26):
And so things can't be just seenas events, they're part of a
trajectory.
Things start because otherthings have happened before, the
event occurs, and then thatevent has repercussions.
And so I think it's incumbentupon us as God's people to help
people to understand how we fitinto this world that God is
(03:48):
taking from creation torecreation.
And there's lots of goodevidence and lots of good work
that's been done by Christiansand non-Christians.
And so I read books like this sothat I can understand the world
that we are in, helps me tounderstand what God is doing.
And so Andrew Wilson is a uhgreat theologian and a great
historian.
(04:08):
He's brought the two together inthis book.
So in the circles I move in, alot of people have been reading
it and we've been discussing it,and a lot of people haven't even
seen it yet.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
I mean, I'm just thinking, um, that's really
helpful.
I'm I remember sitting down withsomebody, and and I would now
describe them as an archetypalexpressive individualist.
And uh, but I was just trying tounderstand their worldview, and
I mean it it felt like nailingjelly to the wall, you know.
And then as I started to read, Ithought, ah, okay.
(04:41):
I can see looking back how overcenturies we've got from there
to here, and you didn't justthink all this stuff up, you are
a child of your generation.
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
Yeah, I mean, everybody uh thinks that they're
an individual, everybody thinksthat they're the first to have
thought these thoughts, andthey're not.
We're actually, it's part of theair that we breathe.
And so understanding what'sgoing on in the course of
history helps us to understandother people so we can help them
to understand themselves, and sothey might be introduced to
Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
And a book like this is also, I think, a warning
against some kind of naivenostalgia, you know, just kind
of thinking, if only we couldget back to because I'm reading
back there, and I mean there's awhole lot of people who as are
as sexually proliferate as anyof the people on OnlyFans today.
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Yes, I I think that that's absolutely right.
That that's what we've got todo.
We've got to help people tounderstand that it's not going
back to the old days.
I I'm getting older now and Idream of the old days, but God
is in control of every event ofhistory and he's bringing about
his purposes for the gloriousday when Jesus will return.
(05:53):
And so let's let's look forwardas well as let's understand the
past so we can look forward.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
Let's push into this acronym um Weirder.
Um what about we jump toeducated and the enlightenment's
confidence uh in human reason?
The the key 1776 developments,um, Emmanuel Kant, Edward Given,
but a whole lot of other stuffas well.
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Yeah, I mean, educate I think uh the W in
Weirda the Western just explainit just explains all the other
ones.
But educated, I think, uhcreates this world that we are
in now where things becomeinside me.
Uh I have authority, I havepower, I have knowledge, I am
(06:36):
the one who determines thefuture.
And education has certainly donethat, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
The two that uh I mean uh Wilson picked up the
first five letters from others,but the two that he added
particularly were the um uh thepost-Christian one and then the
romantic one, and I think that'sprobably worth spending most of
our time there.
So, how did post-Christianitystart in 1776?
(07:06):
Because that's a bold claim.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Um I I'm more interested in theromantic one, so we'll move on
to that.
Uh, but I think that you've gotDarwin and the origin of the
species, you've got a whole lotof stuff that comes out of the
others.
So the educated, the rich, uhpeople I think felt they didn't
need God, even thoughChristianity was part of the air
(07:32):
that they breathed.
But I'm educated, so I knowthings, I'm rich, so I don't
need to worry about theafterlife.
I I'm in control of thingsbecause money gives you power.
There's all of those sorts ofthings, and so uh you don't need
God as much.
It doesn't mean that God's anyless there, of course, because
he is always there.
But I don't feel the need forGod.
(07:52):
And I think that what we areseeing now a couple of centuries
on is that we they in 1776 uhdidn't need God.
Now we are reaping the dangersof completely having jettisoned
God.
And so we live in a world thatis this sad world that we're in
now, but it's a great day ofopportunity too, which I assume
(08:14):
we'll talk about.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, let's talk romanticbecause you, when you um told me
to read this book, you said thech the chapter on lover was the
one that really had uh sparkedyour interest and lover and
romantic.
Yeah, tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
Yeah, well, the romantic movement, uh my my
little brush with history beforethis was it was around you know
1776 through for the next 30, 40years, those those few decades
around the turn of the century,the whole romantic era of of
people like uh Wordsworth Keats,Coleridge, uh Jane Austen, um
(08:50):
the artists like Turner andConstable, uh people like
Beethoven, all that thatromantic era I thought only
lasted 40 years or so.
But I've been convinced thatromanticism actually comes out
of those other elements ofweirder and it explains the
world that we're in today.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
Go on, tell me more.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Yeah, well, I mean, he uses uh a whole lot of I
words that explain romanticism.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
I'll I'll bowl them up.
Yeah, inwardness, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Yeah, so inwardness, that is that whole thing that
true authenticity comes from me.
I noticed that uh in in yourwork in introducing God, you use
that word autonomy, and you'vebeen doing it for many years.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
But that's the inwardness idea that auto nomos,
self-law, you know, that uh thethe auto, the me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, and so that's what inwardness is.
And um, and if you read a wholelot of people these days, it it
tends to revolve around thissame thing.
And and I think it does comefrom romanticism.
So Carl Truman, for example, youknow, he talks about the uh the
whole triumph of the modernself, the way that it turns in
on itself.
It's inwardness.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
And uh and I think next I word infinity.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
Yes, infinity is search for something bigger than
you.
I actually think here is ourgospel opportunity.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Well, but but you're saying that's a that's an idea
that comes from the romanticpicture.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
Well, that's what that's what he says.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Um so how do you think that where do you think
he's right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Oh, I I think that uh what what happens is the idea
of autonomy, the idea ofinwardness says I look inside
myself, and that was the greatproject of where I meant it as a
lot of people.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
I get that with the auto the autonomy and the
inwardness, but what about theinfinity?
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Yeah, well that's what I want to say.
That um the uh uh you lookinside yourself for true
meaning, but then when you dothat, it's not enough.
It's not enough.
So there's there's that searchfor something that is bigger
than me.
Uh, and it shows up in a few ofthe other I words that come.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Well, one of the lines from the book is art.
This is a quote from List, artfor us, art is for us, none
other than the mystic ladderfrom earth to heaven.
Yeah, um, from the finite to theinfinite, from mankind to God.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
Isn't that interesting that they there's
not enough to just be inward?
And so you've got to find a wayto the infinite.
And of course, that's whereromanticism is.
It comes in the art, it comes inthe poetry, it comes in the
music, of clawing your way intosomething else bigger because
just looking inward might be.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
I'm thinking walking the art gallery and feeling
that, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Yes.
Yes, well, what one of the othereyes that you can talk about
later on is intensity that hespeaks about.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Well, that's interesting, isn't it?
Um tell so intensity,passionately exploring my
feelings, my emotions.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
Yes, it's because again, if it's inward, it's my
emotions, and uh so it's allabout me, and so it's this whole
idea of the need for vividnessand intense feelings.
Whereas if you know something istrue, you can still have
feelings, but there's somethingvaluable in what's true.
If it's just me, then there's noidea of truth out there.
(12:04):
So what do you do?
You exchange truth forintensity.
I was watching a television showthe other day where there is a
man who very sadly is dying.
Do you mind if I talk aboutthis?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
He's dying, and because hedoesn't know the truth of
eternity and of God, all he hasto do is to say, I want to
experience things vividly, so Iwant all these bright colours
(12:25):
around me, I want all of theseintense experiences.
Well, as Christian people, weknow there is something better
in the future.
And uh, and so I think that ifyou lose God, you what are you
left with?
Just you're left with intenseemotions.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Especially that's why people talk about having a
bucket list of things to do.
They want to have thoseexperiences before they die.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Yeah, I mean it's nice to experience.
I've got nothing wrong withpeople enjoying life.
I think it's a great blessingfrom God.
But I'll tell you what, I'mgonna see it all in heaven
anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
But I mean, I'm just I just this is where I I think I
need to kind of correct myself.
I mean, when we read these wordsinwardness, infinity,
imagination, individuality,inspiration, intensity,
innocence, ineffability, I wekind of think, well, that's the
air we breathed.
You know, that's that's that'sour life, you know, that's the
(13:15):
stuff around us, that's the artgalleries, that's the culture.
But his point is that's notalways been the air that has
been breathed.
There was a moment, and you'reand he are saying, I think just
a little bit before 1776, butkind of blossoming at that time
when that became the air that webreathed.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
Yes.
Yes, and uh he he tracks it thatin his chapter, which is very
helpful, he can actually pointto things, but it wasn't always
like that.
So um in some ways, Romanticismwas a push against the aridness
of what some people callPuritanism, sometimes just of
the whole Germanic uh way ofviewing reality.
(13:56):
And so it was just content, justdata and information, and that's
what romanticism pushed against.
Well, I don't think Puritanswere ever like that, but uh you
can see that there was a daybefore the Romantic period where
people trusted truth and youjust lived in the light of that
truth, and romanticism changedthat, and we are still breathing
(14:17):
that air of romanticism.
So, just on that, one of theeyes they speak about is
imagination.
Uh, the Puritans were big onimagination.
Imagine what God is doing,imagine what God can do, but I
think it has devolved a littlebit, and I think we're that's a
corrective for us.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
Um one of the things that I had not reflected on was
the massive change in attitudetowards sexuality and sexual
expression.
Um so in the um well, in 1660kind of time, prostitutes were
regularly flogged.
There was a strong kind of antisexual immorality tone in Great
(14:59):
Britain, but by 1770, that's adistant memory, and um and
there's sexual immoralityeverywhere.
And I hadn't I mean, obviouslyI'd heard of Jeremy Bentham and
London School of Economics andthat kind of thing, but I hadn't
twigged that back in 1770 he wassomebody arguing for the
(15:20):
decriminalisation ofhomosexuality.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Yeah, yeah.
It's uh and in fact, uh I thinkWilson presents a strong
argument that it was romanticismthat actually freed up this
whole sexuality uh sort ofthing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Um let's turn for a moment to what were the gospel
people doing in 1776?
Because one of the things thatjumped out to me that I just I
mean, I I'd obvious I mean, thisis the moment of of Wilberforce,
this is the moment of JohnNewton, of Augustus Top Lady, of
um John Wesley, um, all of thesekind of guys, and uh and the
(15:57):
Clapham sect.
Um and I I I've read Newton'sbiography, Wesley's biography.
Well, I mean, I've read one ofthem, and zillions of them have
been written, but um I hadn'tpicked up the fights between
some of these guys, and um therewas some real messy moments
between I mean, between Top Ladyand Wesley and Yeah, yeah, I
(16:22):
mean there there was uh becausewhat it's the same today, but we
don't realise as much.
We have these guys had feet ofclay as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
But and also we are fighting for the heart and souls
of people.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
So there was a day, you know, if you pick up um so
just for Top Lady was the guywho wrote Rock of Ages.
Yes.
Yes, sorry, yes.
And and we want to say hero,that's brilliant.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
They're all our heroes.
I mean, um you've got uh youknow Wesley fighting with so
many one of my friends has aChristian band called the Top
Lady.
Sorry, keep going, that's that'sI mean, you've uh uh you you've
got fights amongst uhevangelicals just uh over
different ways of doing thingsand all that, that because you
(17:03):
are you are warring for thesouls of people.
So it looks like Top Lady was avery contentious person, not
because he wanted to be as apersonality he may have been,
but because he saw that thefights were really for the
eternal destiny of people, andso wanted to make sure that the
gospel was going forward.
And you're in a world that ifit's true that Weirda is being
(17:24):
created in 1776, these thingsthey they could see that they
were important issues, theycould see that people's uh that
where they're going to end upeternally was up for grabs, and
so it was take no prisoners andeven fight amongst your own.
Now we'd want to say, remember,you're they're your friends, but
there's big issues going onthere, and I think it wouldn't
(17:46):
hurt us to see a little bit ofthat as well, that just going
with the flow is not good enoughbecause the the air that we
breathe.
The cultural flow.
Yeah, I guess going with thecultural flow because the air
that we breathe is taking you toperdition, it's taking you away
from God.
So, you know, uh amazing grace,you know, uh how sweet the
(18:08):
sound, uh uh Rock of Ages, allof those sorts of things are
about our finding our rest inGod, and the world is taking you
away from that.
Uh, these people, even our ourgreat heroes, they were the
people who understood grace.
All of the weirder were takingyou away from grace.
So rich was taking you to myaffluence rather than caring for
(18:34):
other people.
We live in a world where thereis no forgiveness anymore.
Something you publish in socialmedia as a 15-year-old will be
forever remembered and heldagainst you.
We have the gospel of grace thatgoes alongside that.
So you can see why they were socontentious.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Um, I mean, here's a pretty out there quote from John
Wesley.
Um uh uh he launched this uhcollection of hymns for the use
of the people called Methodists,and he wrote in the uh preface
in these hymns, there is nodoggerel, no botchers, nothing
put in to patch up the rhyme, nofeeble expletives.
(19:13):
Here there is nothing turgid orbombastic on the one hand, or
low and creeping on the other.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Well, I guess you've got to stand up for what you've
you're convinced it's true.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
Um I've written this great awesome book.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
There's um, I mean, you've got uh I mean Whitfield
and Wesley, they uh they weregreat evangelical people, but
they they had their contentioustimes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
Um now in terms of learning for I mean learning for
us and takeaways for us forChristian ministry today, what
things have jumped out at you?
I'll I'll take you to hischapter at the end in a moment,
but you go first.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah, thank you.
Uh I think don't fret.
Um Yeah, so we talked about evenGod's got it.
Yeah, God is in control.
I think that as I read the book,while it focuses in on one year
on 1776, that longer-term viewthat God is bringing about his
purposes from creation torecreation, and even the changes
(20:16):
of 1776, God is in control andbringing about his good
purposes.
I think that in that period,along with all of the weirder
things that were occurring, thework of the evangelicals kept
reinforcing the grace of God.
The Clapham sect, the way thatyou cared for other people, the
way that, you know, theMoravians, for example, and the
(20:38):
uh Wilberforce work with theanti-slave trading, that is true
freedom for the people inWeirda.
It's all about me.
I need to have the environmentwhere I am most able to
flourish.
What the Christian gospel showedus was that you could have true
freedom even when you'reenslaved.
And so, you know, it has thestory of those people that sold
(21:00):
themselves into slavery so thatthey could take the gospel.
That is true freedom.
You know, the old me and BobbyMcGee, freedom's just another
word for nothing left to lose.
If you know you've got Jesus,you've got nothing left to lose.
You don't have to create yourbeautiful world.
You can serve the Lord with truefreedom and grace, you know, top
(21:21):
lady, or you know, those hymnsof uh you know Wesley's hymns,
uh just to the grace of God.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
Let me give you a couple of lines from the final
chapter.
The West is not aspost-Christian as it seems.
Um despite it, the world is,despite itself, irreducibly
Christian.
Um many Christians feel likethey're losing.
In some countries, it's aquestion of sheer numbers.
(21:50):
Um but he says in the end, we'renot reading it right if we feel
like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah, like you said, God has got it.
Uh these things come and go.
Uh he doesn't talk about one ofthe things of our 21st century,
but I think there is certainly atribalism that is uh going on
now, and there is a movementwhere people have causes rather
than virtues and values, andthey are still anchored in
(22:27):
something Christian.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
Uh so people all of those um acronyms are rebellions
against the rock of Christianityin one way or another.
SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
Uh and I think that because they still have an
anchor in Christian faith, thechallenge is out there and it's
an opportunity for us today.
That is, that as people want todefend their causes, you want to
be able to say, why this cause?
What is the virtue that standsbehind that?
And the virtues that stillresonate with people still are
(22:56):
grace, still are truth, stillare freedom.
They're they're things, andthey're they're only to be found
in the Lord Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
Thanks so much for coming in, my guest on The
Pastor's Heart, Archie Poulos,the uh head of the Centre for
Ministry Development at Sydney'sMoore Theological College.
And uh we've been talking aboutuh this book, uh Andrew Wilson's
Remaking of the World, how 1776created the post Christian West.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
(23:26):
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
How did we get here?
How 1776 created thepost-Christian West.
It is the pastor's heart.
It's Dominic Steele and Wisdomfor Pastors Seeking to Preach
and Lead Win a P-Christian age.
Today we're learning fromhistory and the window given us
by the year 1776.
Andrew Wilson's book, Remakingthe World, How 1776 Created the
(00:32):
Post-Christian West is muchdiscussed at the moment.
Wilson's thesis, not thathistory turned on a single
calendar date, but that theevents clustered around the year
1776 help us understand andexplain our world today.
He has the seven-letter acronym,Weirda.
(00:53):
W.
Western.
James Cook led the way inmapping the world.
E.
Educated.
Immanuel Kant's early criticalproject and Edward Gibbon's
Decline and Fall of the RomanEmpire were released.
I industrialized.
James Watts' improved steamengine became commercially
(01:15):
viable and deployable.
R.
Rich.
Adam Smith in the Wealth ofNations articulates the logic of
markets, productivity andgrowth, and D.
Democratic.
With the War of Independence inAmerica and the Declaration of
Independence, for the firsttime, a modern nation explicitly
(01:36):
grounds political authority inthe people rather than in
monarchy or divine right.
And E ex-Christian,Enlightenment deism and
skepticism crystallize,symbolized by Benjamin
Franklin's edit of theDeclaration's language, the
Declaration of Independencelanguage, from sacred and
(01:59):
undeniable to self-evident.
And finally, R, romantic.
Truth and meaning areincreasingly sought within the
self.
And Russo's Reveries of theSolitary Walker is the example
there.
We are joined by the head of theCenter for Ministry Development
at Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege, Archie Poulos.
(02:20):
Archie told me that I shouldread this book over summer.
Archie, uh let's start with yourpastor's heart.
And uh while I'm imagining thatreading this book for you
intellectually was asstimulating for you as it was
for me, I'm I'm actuallyinterested in what it did for
your pastor's heart.
SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Oh, thanks, Dominic.
Yeah, I uh I read books not justto get information or to know
more stuff because that's that'spretty much a waste of time.
Uh the reason for doing it is sothat we can understand what God
might be doing in his world, howhe might help his people to live
in the world, and how he mightsee more people saved.
And so we you know, we're in anage now where so much is viewed
(03:04):
as an episode or as an event.
So something happens in ourworld, and people sit back and
they assess, is this a good or abad thing?
How do I respond to that?
And so everything is based on anevent.
But we're Christian people, andwe know that God started history
in Genesis, He's going to bringit to an end in Revelation, and
He's also told us why things arehappening.
(03:26):
And so things can't be just seenas events, they're part of a
trajectory.
Things start because otherthings have happened before, the
event occurs, and then thatevent has repercussions.
And so I think it's incumbentupon us as God's people to help
people to understand how we fitinto this world that God is
(03:48):
taking from creation torecreation.
And there's lots of goodevidence and lots of good work
that's been done by Christiansand non-Christians.
And so I read books like this sothat I can understand the world
that we are in, helps me tounderstand what God is doing.
And so Andrew Wilson is a uhgreat theologian and a great
historian.
(04:08):
He's brought the two together inthis book.
So in the circles I move in, alot of people have been reading
it and we've been discussing it,and a lot of people haven't even
seen it yet.
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
I mean, I'm just thinking, um, that's really
helpful.
I'm I remember sitting down withsomebody, and and I would now
describe them as an archetypalexpressive individualist.
And uh, but I was just trying tounderstand their worldview, and
I mean it it felt like nailingjelly to the wall, you know.
And then as I started to read, Ithought, ah, okay.
(04:41):
I can see looking back how overcenturies we've got from there
to here, and you didn't justthink all this stuff up, you are
a child of your generation.
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
Yeah, I mean, everybody uh thinks that they're
an individual, everybody thinksthat they're the first to have
thought these thoughts, andthey're not.
We're actually, it's part of theair that we breathe.
And so understanding what'sgoing on in the course of
history helps us to understandother people so we can help them
to understand themselves, and sothey might be introduced to
Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
And a book like this is also, I think, a warning
against some kind of naivenostalgia, you know, just kind
of thinking, if only we couldget back to because I'm reading
back there, and I mean there's awhole lot of people who as are
as sexually proliferate as anyof the people on OnlyFans today.
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
Yes, I I think that that's absolutely right.
That that's what we've got todo.
We've got to help people tounderstand that it's not going
back to the old days.
I I'm getting older now and Idream of the old days, but God
is in control of every event ofhistory and he's bringing about
his purposes for the gloriousday when Jesus will return.
(05:53):
And so let's let's look forwardas well as let's understand the
past so we can look forward.
SPEAKER_00 (05:58):
Let's push into this acronym um Weirder.
Um what about we jump toeducated and the enlightenment's
confidence uh in human reason?
The the key 1776 developments,um, Emmanuel Kant, Edward Given,
but a whole lot of other stuffas well.
SPEAKER_01 (06:14):
Yeah, I mean, educate I think uh the W in
Weirda the Western just explainit just explains all the other
ones.
But educated, I think, uhcreates this world that we are
in now where things becomeinside me.
Uh I have authority, I havepower, I have knowledge, I am
(06:36):
the one who determines thefuture.
And education has certainly donethat, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (06:41):
The two that uh I mean uh Wilson picked up the
first five letters from others,but the two that he added
particularly were the um uh thepost-Christian one and then the
romantic one, and I think that'sprobably worth spending most of
our time there.
So, how did post-Christianitystart in 1776?
(07:06):
Because that's a bold claim.
SPEAKER_01 (07:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Um I I'm more interested in theromantic one, so we'll move on
to that.
Uh, but I think that you've gotDarwin and the origin of the
species, you've got a whole lotof stuff that comes out of the
others.
So the educated, the rich, uhpeople I think felt they didn't
need God, even thoughChristianity was part of the air
(07:32):
that they breathed.
But I'm educated, so I knowthings, I'm rich, so I don't
need to worry about theafterlife.
I I'm in control of thingsbecause money gives you power.
There's all of those sorts ofthings, and so uh you don't need
God as much.
It doesn't mean that God's anyless there, of course, because
he is always there.
But I don't feel the need forGod.
(07:52):
And I think that what we areseeing now a couple of centuries
on is that we they in 1776 uhdidn't need God.
Now we are reaping the dangersof completely having jettisoned
God.
And so we live in a world thatis this sad world that we're in
now, but it's a great day ofopportunity too, which I assume
(08:14):
we'll talk about.
SPEAKER_00 (08:15):
Yeah, that's right.
Well, let's talk romanticbecause you, when you um told me
to read this book, you said thech the chapter on lover was the
one that really had uh sparkedyour interest and lover and
romantic.
Yeah, tell me about that.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
Yeah, well, the romantic movement, uh my my
little brush with history beforethis was it was around you know
1776 through for the next 30, 40years, those those few decades
around the turn of the century,the whole romantic era of of
people like uh Wordsworth Keats,Coleridge, uh Jane Austen, um
(08:50):
the artists like Turner andConstable, uh people like
Beethoven, all that thatromantic era I thought only
lasted 40 years or so.
But I've been convinced thatromanticism actually comes out
of those other elements ofweirder and it explains the
world that we're in today.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
Go on, tell me more.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Yeah, well, I mean, he uses uh a whole lot of I
words that explain romanticism.
SPEAKER_00 (09:12):
I'll I'll bowl them up.
Yeah, inwardness, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
Yeah, so inwardness, that is that whole thing that
true authenticity comes from me.
I noticed that uh in in yourwork in introducing God, you use
that word autonomy, and you'vebeen doing it for many years.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
But that's the inwardness idea that auto nomos,
self-law, you know, that uh thethe auto, the me.
SPEAKER_01 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, and so that's what inwardness is.
And um, and if you read a wholelot of people these days, it it
tends to revolve around thissame thing.
And and I think it does comefrom romanticism.
So Carl Truman, for example, youknow, he talks about the uh the
whole triumph of the modernself, the way that it turns in
on itself.
It's inwardness.
SPEAKER_00 (09:54):
And uh and I think next I word infinity.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
Yes, infinity is search for something bigger than
you.
I actually think here is ourgospel opportunity.
SPEAKER_00 (10:05):
Well, but but you're saying that's a that's an idea
that comes from the romanticpicture.
SPEAKER_01 (10:10):
Well, that's what that's what he says.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
Um so how do you think that where do you think
he's right?
SPEAKER_01 (10:14):
Oh, I I think that uh what what happens is the idea
of autonomy, the idea ofinwardness says I look inside
myself, and that was the greatproject of where I meant it as a
lot of people.
SPEAKER_00 (10:26):
I get that with the auto the autonomy and the
inwardness, but what about theinfinity?
SPEAKER_01 (10:29):
Yeah, well that's what I want to say.
That um the uh uh you lookinside yourself for true
meaning, but then when you dothat, it's not enough.
It's not enough.
So there's there's that searchfor something that is bigger
than me.
Uh, and it shows up in a few ofthe other I words that come.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Well, one of the lines from the book is art.
This is a quote from List, artfor us, art is for us, none
other than the mystic ladderfrom earth to heaven.
Yeah, um, from the finite to theinfinite, from mankind to God.
SPEAKER_01 (11:00):
Isn't that interesting that they there's
not enough to just be inward?
And so you've got to find a wayto the infinite.
And of course, that's whereromanticism is.
It comes in the art, it comes inthe poetry, it comes in the
music, of clawing your way intosomething else bigger because
just looking inward might be.
SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
I'm thinking walking the art gallery and feeling
that, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Yes.
Yes, well, what one of the othereyes that you can talk about
later on is intensity that hespeaks about.
SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Well, that's interesting, isn't it?
Um tell so intensity,passionately exploring my
feelings, my emotions.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (11:39):
Yes, it's because again, if it's inward, it's my
emotions, and uh so it's allabout me, and so it's this whole
idea of the need for vividnessand intense feelings.
Whereas if you know something istrue, you can still have
feelings, but there's somethingvaluable in what's true.
If it's just me, then there's noidea of truth out there.
(12:04):
So what do you do?
You exchange truth forintensity.
I was watching a television showthe other day where there is a
man who very sadly is dying.
Do you mind if I talk aboutthis?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead.
He's dying, and because hedoesn't know the truth of
eternity and of God, all he hasto do is to say, I want to
experience things vividly, so Iwant all these bright colours
(12:25):
around me, I want all of theseintense experiences.
Well, as Christian people, weknow there is something better
in the future.
And uh, and so I think that ifyou lose God, you what are you
left with?
Just you're left with intenseemotions.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
Especially that's why people talk about having a
bucket list of things to do.
They want to have thoseexperiences before they die.
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Yeah, I mean it's nice to experience.
I've got nothing wrong withpeople enjoying life.
I think it's a great blessingfrom God.
But I'll tell you what, I'mgonna see it all in heaven
anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (12:53):
But I mean, I'm just I just this is where I I think I
need to kind of correct myself.
I mean, when we read these wordsinwardness, infinity,
imagination, individuality,inspiration, intensity,
innocence, ineffability, I wekind of think, well, that's the
air we breathed.
You know, that's that's that'sour life, you know, that's the
(13:15):
stuff around us, that's the artgalleries, that's the culture.
But his point is that's notalways been the air that has
been breathed.
There was a moment, and you'reand he are saying, I think just
a little bit before 1776, butkind of blossoming at that time
when that became the air that webreathed.
SPEAKER_01 (13:34):
Yes.
Yes, and uh he he tracks it thatin his chapter, which is very
helpful, he can actually pointto things, but it wasn't always
like that.
So um in some ways, Romanticismwas a push against the aridness
of what some people callPuritanism, sometimes just of
the whole Germanic uh way ofviewing reality.
(13:56):
And so it was just content, justdata and information, and that's
what romanticism pushed against.
Well, I don't think Puritanswere ever like that, but uh you
can see that there was a daybefore the Romantic period where
people trusted truth and youjust lived in the light of that
truth, and romanticism changedthat, and we are still breathing
(14:17):
that air of romanticism.
So, just on that, one of theeyes they speak about is
imagination.
Uh, the Puritans were big onimagination.
Imagine what God is doing,imagine what God can do, but I
think it has devolved a littlebit, and I think we're that's a
corrective for us.
SPEAKER_00 (14:35):
Um one of the things that I had not reflected on was
the massive change in attitudetowards sexuality and sexual
expression.
Um so in the um well, in 1660kind of time, prostitutes were
regularly flogged.
There was a strong kind of antisexual immorality tone in Great
(14:59):
Britain, but by 1770, that's adistant memory, and um and
there's sexual immoralityeverywhere.
And I hadn't I mean, obviouslyI'd heard of Jeremy Bentham and
London School of Economics andthat kind of thing, but I hadn't
twigged that back in 1770 he wassomebody arguing for the
(15:20):
decriminalisation ofhomosexuality.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Yeah, yeah.
It's uh and in fact, uh I thinkWilson presents a strong
argument that it was romanticismthat actually freed up this
whole sexuality uh sort ofthing.
SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
Um let's turn for a moment to what were the gospel
people doing in 1776?
Because one of the things thatjumped out to me that I just I
mean, I I'd obvious I mean, thisis the moment of of Wilberforce,
this is the moment of JohnNewton, of Augustus Top Lady, of
um John Wesley, um, all of thesekind of guys, and uh and the
(15:57):
Clapham sect.
Um and I I I've read Newton'sbiography, Wesley's biography.
Well, I mean, I've read one ofthem, and zillions of them have
been written, but um I hadn'tpicked up the fights between
some of these guys, and um therewas some real messy moments
between I mean, between Top Ladyand Wesley and Yeah, yeah, I
(16:22):
mean there there was uh becausewhat it's the same today, but we
don't realise as much.
We have these guys had feet ofclay as well.
SPEAKER_01 (16:29):
But and also we are fighting for the heart and souls
of people.
SPEAKER_00 (16:32):
So there was a day, you know, if you pick up um so
just for Top Lady was the guywho wrote Rock of Ages.
Yes.
Yes, sorry, yes.
And and we want to say hero,that's brilliant.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
They're all our heroes.
I mean, um you've got uh youknow Wesley fighting with so
many one of my friends has aChristian band called the Top
Lady.
Sorry, keep going, that's that'sI mean, you've uh uh you you've
got fights amongst uhevangelicals just uh over
different ways of doing thingsand all that, that because you
(17:03):
are you are warring for thesouls of people.
So it looks like Top Lady was avery contentious person, not
because he wanted to be as apersonality he may have been,
but because he saw that thefights were really for the
eternal destiny of people, andso wanted to make sure that the
gospel was going forward.
And you're in a world that ifit's true that Weirda is being
(17:24):
created in 1776, these thingsthey they could see that they
were important issues, theycould see that people's uh that
where they're going to end upeternally was up for grabs, and
so it was take no prisoners andeven fight amongst your own.
Now we'd want to say, remember,you're they're your friends, but
there's big issues going onthere, and I think it wouldn't
(17:46):
hurt us to see a little bit ofthat as well, that just going
with the flow is not good enoughbecause the the air that we
breathe.
The cultural flow.
Yeah, I guess going with thecultural flow because the air
that we breathe is taking you toperdition, it's taking you away
from God.
So, you know, uh amazing grace,you know, uh how sweet the
(18:08):
sound, uh uh Rock of Ages, allof those sorts of things are
about our finding our rest inGod, and the world is taking you
away from that.
Uh, these people, even our ourgreat heroes, they were the
people who understood grace.
All of the weirder were takingyou away from grace.
So rich was taking you to myaffluence rather than caring for
(18:34):
other people.
We live in a world where thereis no forgiveness anymore.
Something you publish in socialmedia as a 15-year-old will be
forever remembered and heldagainst you.
We have the gospel of grace thatgoes alongside that.
So you can see why they were socontentious.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
Um, I mean, here's a pretty out there quote from John
Wesley.
Um uh uh he launched this uhcollection of hymns for the use
of the people called Methodists,and he wrote in the uh preface
in these hymns, there is nodoggerel, no botchers, nothing
put in to patch up the rhyme, nofeeble expletives.
(19:13):
Here there is nothing turgid orbombastic on the one hand, or
low and creeping on the other.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:20):
Well, I guess you've got to stand up for what you've
you're convinced it's true.
SPEAKER_00 (19:24):
Um I've written this great awesome book.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
There's um, I mean, you've got uh I mean Whitfield
and Wesley, they uh they weregreat evangelical people, but
they they had their contentioustimes.
SPEAKER_00 (19:38):
Um now in terms of learning for I mean learning for
us and takeaways for us forChristian ministry today, what
things have jumped out at you?
I'll I'll take you to hischapter at the end in a moment,
but you go first.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
Yeah, thank you.
Uh I think don't fret.
Um Yeah, so we talked about evenGod's got it.
Yeah, God is in control.
I think that as I read the book,while it focuses in on one year
on 1776, that longer-term viewthat God is bringing about his
purposes from creation torecreation, and even the changes
(20:16):
of 1776, God is in control andbringing about his good
purposes.
I think that in that period,along with all of the weirder
things that were occurring, thework of the evangelicals kept
reinforcing the grace of God.
The Clapham sect, the way thatyou cared for other people, the
way that, you know, theMoravians, for example, and the
(20:38):
uh Wilberforce work with theanti-slave trading, that is true
freedom for the people inWeirda.
It's all about me.
I need to have the environmentwhere I am most able to
flourish.
What the Christian gospel showedus was that you could have true
freedom even when you'reenslaved.
And so, you know, it has thestory of those people that sold
(21:00):
themselves into slavery so thatthey could take the gospel.
That is true freedom.
You know, the old me and BobbyMcGee, freedom's just another
word for nothing left to lose.
If you know you've got Jesus,you've got nothing left to lose.
You don't have to create yourbeautiful world.
You can serve the Lord with truefreedom and grace, you know, top
(21:21):
lady, or you know, those hymnsof uh you know Wesley's hymns,
uh just to the grace of God.
SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
Let me give you a couple of lines from the final
chapter.
The West is not aspost-Christian as it seems.
Um despite it, the world is,despite itself, irreducibly
Christian.
Um many Christians feel likethey're losing.
In some countries, it's aquestion of sheer numbers.
(21:50):
Um but he says in the end, we'renot reading it right if we feel
like that.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:00):
Yeah, like you said, God has got it.
Uh these things come and go.
Uh he doesn't talk about one ofthe things of our 21st century,
but I think there is certainly atribalism that is uh going on
now, and there is a movementwhere people have causes rather
than virtues and values, andthey are still anchored in
(22:27):
something Christian.
SPEAKER_00 (22:29):
Uh so people all of those um acronyms are rebellions
against the rock of Christianityin one way or another.
SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
Uh and I think that because they still have an
anchor in Christian faith, thechallenge is out there and it's
an opportunity for us today.
That is, that as people want todefend their causes, you want to
be able to say, why this cause?
What is the virtue that standsbehind that?
And the virtues that stillresonate with people still are
(22:56):
grace, still are truth, stillare freedom.
They're they're things, andthey're they're only to be found
in the Lord Jesus.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
Thanks so much for coming in, my guest on The
Pastor's Heart, Archie Poulos,the uh head of the Centre for
Ministry Development at Sydney'sMoore Theological College.
And uh we've been talking aboutuh this book, uh Andrew Wilson's
Remaking of the World, how 1776created the post Christian West.
My name is Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
(23:26):
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Betrayal Season 5
Saskia Inwood woke up one morning, knowing her life would never be the same. The night before, she learned the unimaginable – that the husband she knew in the light of day was a different person after dark. This season unpacks Saskia’s discovery of her husband’s secret life and her fight to bring him to justice. Along the way, we expose a crime that is just coming to light. This is also a story about the myth of the “perfect victim:” who gets believed, who gets doubted, and why. We follow Saskia as she works to reclaim her body, her voice, and her life. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. Follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.