How do you work well in a ministry team when you’re not the senior leader?

So much pastoral energy is lost when teams don’t function well. 
Anxiety rises, trust erodes and the mission of the church suffers. But when teams are healthy, aligned and generous with one another, churches flourish.

In this ‘Best of’ episode of The Pastor’s Heart, over the Australian Summer, we’re joined by Peter Blanch (Reach Australia), Michael Davies (Lighthouse Church, Gorokan) and Megan Stevens (Vine Church, Surry Hills) to talk about leading up — how assistant ministers, associates and key volunteers can help teams work better, support senior leaders and care for the whole church ecosystem.

We talk identity in Christ, trust, feedback, confidentiality, handling complaints and the often-unspoken dynamics of second-chair leadership — including the role of spouses.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
It is the Pastor's Heart and Dominic Steele.
And how do you work well in aministry team when you're not
the senior leader?
So much pastoral energy is lostwhen teams don't function well.
Anxiety rises, trust erodes, andthe mission of the church
suffers.
But when teams are healthy,aligned, and generous with one
another, churches flourish.

(00:21):
In this best of episode of thePastor's Heart over the
Australian summer break, we'rejoined by Pete Blanche of Reach
Australia, Michael Davies ofLighthouse Church, Gorikan on
the central coast of New SouthWales, and Megan Stevens from
Vine Church in Surrey Hills inSydney to talk about leading up,
how assistant ministers,associates, and even key
volunteers can help teams workbetter, can support senior

(00:44):
leaders, and care for the wholechurch ecosystem.
We're talking identity inChrist, trust, feedback,
confidentiality, handlingcomplaints, and the often
unspoken dynamics of secondchair leadership, including the
role of spouses.

(01:09):
Pete, let's start with you andyour pastor's heart on this.
For actually, the biggest painin ministry happens really when
teams don't function welltogether.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22):
I think that's right, Dominic.
We only have so much emotionalenergy to go around, and we
really want that energy focusedin on the people we're actively
trying to shepherd, includingthose who are in our ministry
teams, particularly.
But when teams aren'tfunctioning well, it's amazing
how much energy is taken up withworrying, being anxious, trying

(01:43):
to fix or work on adysfunctional or not firing
relationship, leaving actuallythe rest of the flock you're
trying to shepherd with kind ofleftover energy, pastoral
energy, pastoral, emotionalenergy.
And so my heart really doesbleed for churches where there
are teams, and it can be staffteams or it might be high-level

(02:05):
volunteers as well, but justwhere teams really are not
thriving, where there's notwhere sometimes there's a lack
of clarity, where sometimesthere's just a we're not quite
getting on like we ought to, andit just it just affects the
whole church, not just thepeople in the team.

SPEAKER_00 (02:22):
I guess you go to assistant ministers' conferences
and hear from peers, it's notworking.

SPEAKER_04 (02:29):
We can create messes for ourselves, can't we?
Um I think the thing aboutfunctioning well in a team in
churches is that it takes a lotof trust.
And so actually building thattrust becomes a core part of
what we do together.
Um, you think about um, I knowthat lots of people have looked
into Lencioni's fivedysfunctions of a team, and you

(02:52):
start thinking about thosethings that mean that teams
don't work.
Um, they actually can be thingsthat are really easy to see fall
apart in churches.
Um, and so trust becomes a hugefactor that we have to think
about in the way that weinteract with each other.
We have to think about what itis that means that we can work
together well and get past thatnorming, storming, forming into

(03:17):
the performing so that we'reactually flourishing in our
churches.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Michael, they call it leading up.
What is leading up?

SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
Yeah, well, I mean, you have this interesting
dynamic as a second chair leaderwhere what is a second chair
leader?
Second chair leader, yeah, yeah.
So when you're a two-IC, whenyou're not the senior leader, in
and this is, you know, in anyorganization, there's somebody
above you leading you, and thenthere's people beneath you,
you're leading them, and you sitin the middle.

(03:47):
Um some people call it like thesubordinate paradox.
Um and leading up is where youare trying to helpfully
influence your leader.
Um, so if you're a volunteer ina church, you can lead up to
your um pastor, and if you're anassociate pastor or a 2IC of any

(04:08):
kind, you're you're able to leadup in influencing your boss.
Um, and that looks like allkinds of things.
There's healthy ways of doingthat, and there's really
unhealthy ways of doing that aswell.
Yeah.
How do we do it well?

SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
How do we do it badly?

SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
Yeah.
Um, well, I mean, just thinkingabout the heart issues, first
and foremost, in ministry, um,senior leaders have you know
temptations in regards toidentity issues, and two ICs or
second chair leaders have theirown set of heart issues to work
through.
So we need to be uh, and I'm notperfect in this, but we we need

(04:47):
to be um really secure in ourwalk with the Lord, our identity
is in Christ, so so that as Ibring an idea to my boss, as I
try to lead the ministry I'mleading, but you know, with
within the vision that my bosshas set, I I'm okay.
It's all right if my ideasaren't accepted, it's all right

(05:10):
if my input is, you know, heardbut then left aside because my
identity is secure in Christ.
I also need to trust thesovereignty of God that He um
loves his church more than Iever will.
And so um that means sometimesthings are out of my control
because I'm not the seniorleader, I can't make the final
call on everything.

(05:32):
Um but I need to trust God inhis sovereignty that he will
bring about good in whatever waythat looks like.
Um so there's some hard issuesthat we have to work on, I
think, as a as a first step.
And then there's very practical,helpful ways to lead up,
influence, um influence yourboss.
Um part of it is a is around theattitude that you have.

(05:54):
Um one thing that I've foundreally helpful just personally
is is trying to think of thedifference between a critical
spirit or a critical attitudeand being a critical thinker.
So I think I think a good seniorleader will want you as a second
chair leader to be a goodcritical thinker.

(06:15):
That is, you are seeing church,you are seeing what's going on,
and you're thinking you'regenuinely invested in the
outcomes of the ministry, um,and you're thinking critically,
and you're bringing new ideasand you're bringing helpful
feedback in healthy ways, butyou're not doing it with a
critical spirit.
You're not bringing it with ananarchy attitude.

(06:38):
Um you're not uh consistentlynitpicking.
Um, you are trying to be apositive force in a staff team.
Um there's some initial.

SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
That that's a hard that's a hard issue, isn't it?
Because one of the dangers in asecond chair role is competing
with your first chair.
Um what it's a disaster if afirst chair competes with their
second chair or a second chaircompetes with their first chair.
Uh but that they are hardissues, isn't it?
If you haven't got your identityin Christ sorted, you end up
thinking like, if I am competingwith my senior leader, am I the

(07:12):
am I a better preacher thanthem, or does the church family
love them more than they loveme?
Uh is my ministry the bestministry here so that I get all
the credit.
But that's a hard issue, Ithink, going on.
What a what what a second chairleader really needs to bring is
this so such a secure identityin Christ that with their senior
leader that they then pursue thegospel kingdom, the strip pursue

(07:35):
the kingdom of God as of firstimportance and they leave that
competitive spirit behindbecause they actually then go,
Well, how can I how can I reallyas together because we're at one
level they're both second tierleaders because Jesus is always
in the first year, right?
Absolutely uh and so they bothknow what it should be like to
be in in that second tier role,but there's that together we are

(07:58):
not competing with each other,we are genuinely in partnership
seeking and and it always that'sthat's the hard issue, first and
foremost, that a firstcheerleader and a second
cheerleader both need to havewriting place.

SPEAKER_04 (08:09):
The alignment is really important, isn't it?
Making sure that you're both ontrack towards the same thing,
which is the glory of Jesus,making sure that you're both
heading towards actually thegrowth of God's church.
And I I had a really helpfulsaying um in thinking about this
that it's important to make sureyou are being a funnel, not a
filter.

(08:30):
Because when we are competingwith our leaders, it's easy to
be a filter and only pass oncertain bits of information to
sort of seek the outcomes thatwe want for ourselves.
But if you're a funnel, you'reradically honest about the
things that matter.
You can leave out the thingsthat don't.
You can actually help supportyour leader to be doing the best

(08:51):
they can with what God's giventhem in terms of ministry and
seeing great outcomes from that,which means that we can actually
then be working towards thatgoal together and see it's
flourishing.
So I think that's a reallyhelpful thing to think about,
being a being a funnel, not afilter.
Um, and there's lots ofself-management that has to go
on in that, thinking about theheart issue that goes on.

(09:12):
You're you're managing your ownemotions, you're managing in
your mind what's important, um,bringing the important things to
bear to the table.
Um, you're managing uh your owntime and energy, um, you're
managing the relationships thatare going on around you.
But um, yeah, emotionalmanagement, I think, is often a
big one in our churches,thinking about how we're

(09:34):
building relationships.

SPEAKER_00 (09:35):
Well, what kind of helpful things and unhelpful
things can second chair leadersdo in those situations?

SPEAKER_01 (09:42):
One one of the dynamics that exists is if
you're a second chair leader,you are in touch with the
congregation of a church in adifferent way than the senior
pastor is.
So you you might know more ofwhat's going on.
People will come and have moreclear grumbles to you.
Potentially, yeah, potentially.
I think that's part of your roleis to manage those conversations

(10:05):
really well.
How how do we how do we do giveus stories of somebody's done it
well and somebody who's done itbadly or something?
When you've done it well andwhen you're so if I'm doing it
well, I'm trying to hear peoplewell.
So I'm genuinely listening towhatever issue they might have.
And um and I want them to feelheard, but not necessarily feel

(10:30):
like I've agreed with them.
Because if it is about my bossor something that my boss
oversees, um then I I want to bean ally to him, and I want to
show honor and respect to him.
Um and so this is a delicatebalance of of trying to
genuinely listen to people, butnot go away from that

(10:52):
conversation um thinking uh orhaving them think that you agree
with everything they've justsaid.
But also And that you're an allywith them against the bit.
Yeah, yeah.
But you've also got to notnecessarily push back um a whole
heap in that conversationbecause there is a bit of
triangulation going on wherereally it would be better if

(11:14):
they go and talk to you know, myboss.
And that's what I'll try andencourage people to do.
It doesn't always work.
But what about you, Megan?

SPEAKER_00 (11:22):
Have you been in that situation too?

SPEAKER_04 (11:24):
Definitely.
I think as a second chairleader, often people will come
to you with the grumbles andgripes, and it is important,
like Michael said, to directthem to the source, to direct
them to the right person fortheir um complaints or um yeah,
the things that they're unhappyabout.
I think a big thing is umthinking about how we interact

(11:45):
with those people and hear themand hear out their struggles.
Um we also need to make sure weprotect our our lead pastors in
terms of their time because leadpastoring is quite a very
time-consuming role.
And so, in a second chairposition, actually, part of our
role is kind of as their innercircle to um help help them have

(12:07):
their time protected becausewe're kind of like their their
right hand um in that way.
Um, so thinking about how can weactually help in that situation?
What is it that might hinder?
Um, but what is it that we cando to help?
Um, one thing might be directingthem to the right person for
their complaints or theirworries, but actually, is there

(12:27):
anything that we can do to helpthe scenario, say um a
structural issue or anorganizational issue that we
might be able to actually haveinfluence on?
Because influence works in that360-degree way.
We're not only influencing thepeople who are under us, but
we're also influencing up interms of leaders.

SPEAKER_00 (12:48):
What about the spouse of a second chair leader?
What can what can the spouse ofa second chair leader do that's
either helpful or unhelpful?
Because yeah.
Again, start with you, Michael.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, I think it's similar things.
I think um if they uh Well I'venever put that in a job
description when I've appointedsomeone, and yet a spouse can be

(13:10):
super helpful or not helpful.

SPEAKER_01 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I guess it's a bit trickier forthem because they're not in the
team meetings and the teamenvironment um to build that
trust that Meg was talkingabout.
And so there is uh a sense inwhich they sit on the outside,
but they are privy to moreinformation about church and
church people and church thingsthan um than the regular church

(13:33):
member is.
So I think um for a spouse, thatsame work of being able to
listen really well and hear uhabout people's concerns, um and
be be an encouragement and apositive force in some way, but
again, trying to manage it sothat um if it's if it's a

(13:54):
genuine grievance, that it it itgets funneled into the right
place, the right people hearabout it, and the the spouse of
an associate pastor is ispossibly not the best person to
be absorbing all of that and sosort of a bit of deflection um
wisely, you know, with with withum compassion and and genuine

(14:14):
listening.
But yeah, that that is tricky.

SPEAKER_04 (14:16):
It's a tricky one, isn't it?
Because I think um in manystereotypical um evangelical
Anglican churches, I want tosay, but all kinds of churches.
You have the pastor's wife, whois the person who people go to
with all kinds of informationwith a grumble, people or the
assisted pastor's wife, yes.
Yes, even about her own husband,um, which can be quite tricky.

(14:38):
I call my I call my husband umlovingly the pastor's wife.
He's the pastor's wife in ourscenario.
Um, and it's quite tricky.
It is quite tricky.
Um, I grew up in a uh ministryhome and lots of people would
come to my mum with the gripesabout what what they wanted to
see my dad doing, as if theyweren't willing to have that

(14:59):
difficult conversation or aconversation that might actually
involve some um emotional tollin terms of saying a hard thing
in love, hopefully.
Um, so it can be quite difficultwhen people I guess go to the
wrong place with their grumblesand gripes.
Um, and learning how to be theministry spouse in that
situation, direct people to theright places.

(15:22):
Um, I think this might soundgendered, but particularly for
women, very, very easy to fallinto that um gossip train and
making sure we don't um fallinto that trap, um, but instead
go to the right places with thatinformation, help people to see
that actually things functionbetter when we're sharing the

(15:43):
right information.

SPEAKER_02 (15:45):
Motives can be pure and impure at that at all sorts
of points in this moment, butthe pure motive person doing
this is actually it's theirattempt to lead up.
They might be doing it the wrongway and going through
triangulation to pull it off.
But there's probably somethingthat's concerning them in the
ministry that they're doing, andthey're attempting to lead up.
You've obviously got to watchthe inappropriate motive at that
point as well.

SPEAKER_01 (16:06):
What you can do as the second chair leader is take
that and be helpful or unhelpfulin how you tell your senior this
is what's happening.
Because you might choose to go,oh, you know what, I think
that's just a a grumble, they'rehaving a bad day.
I'm not gonna do anything withthat.
I've heard them out.
Or you might go, hmm, thatsounds that sounds fair, and

(16:26):
that sounds like my boss wouldreally want to know that this
person's feeling this or thatthis is happening.
And you can I can think ofreally simple ways that you can
do that badly.
You can go to your boss and youcan say, Hey, I think everyone's
feeling like dot dot the black.
People are saying dot dot umit's much better to go, uh, and

(16:46):
it's a little tricky when youmay not have permission, but
it's much better to go, look,Pete is a bit upset.
Here's what he's told me.
I I wonder if there's somethingto what he's saying.
Maybe others he he's sayingothers are feeling it.
Um even that's a triggeringstatement because because for a
senior, who who are the who arethe others?

(17:07):
Um but you know, you know what Imean?
You can have those helpful um uhconversations where there is a
flow of of helpful informationgoing up.
It's honest, it's helpful, uh,it's healthy, um, and then that
can help senior pastor to lead.
Because they otherwise would nothave heard about what's actually

(17:27):
happening um in a ministry.

SPEAKER_02 (17:29):
There's a critical piece there, which is the senior
pastor or the lead pastoractually will set the tone of to
make it possible to lead up.
If the senior leader is oftendefensive and wanting to not re
and hears everything as ummassive criticism and everyone
doesn't like me, you'll createan environment where actually
it's really difficult to lead upbecause everything will be heard

(17:51):
as criticism.
This is that the pastor's heart,man, is it where the second
chair leaders and the firstchair leaders both have their
identity very clearly in Christ,it then can create an
environment where leading upwill not be received in the
wrong way.
Of course, it can be completelyoverdone and it is always
misread or maybeovercommunicated and done
poorly, and it and maybe it iscriticism, so care needs to be

(18:14):
taken.
But I think a senior leader aswell as a team members both need
to take responsibility to havean environment of
non-defensiveness because we'rein this for the cause of the
gospel, and the best idea in ourit needs to win, and if we need
to hear some critical feedback,that's okay, we can change, but
it it's hard to build that thatenvironment and maintain it.

(18:36):
But it is absolutely key forleading from the second chair
leading up without that context,it's very hard to do it.

SPEAKER_04 (18:43):
And openness to feedback is a critical piece
there, yeah, and openness toreceive feedback and also
learning how to, I think, as asecond chair leader, learning
how to give good feedback.
It's a skill, it's an acquiredskill, it's something we have to
work at, I think.
Um, I have to give a shout outto my boss, Toby, because he is
excellent at asking for feedbackand actually um asking us to

(19:07):
tell him when something didn'tgo great or when um maybe he
could have um entered asituation better.
And so actually, as a leader,whether it's first or second
chair, having an openness toreceive feedback in that you're
inviting people to reflect on uhconversations on um various

(19:27):
areas of ministry, particularlythose relational pieces to help
you figure out what it is thatcould actually be being done
better, what might have moreimpact.
Um, that's a really fundamentalpiece in terms of helping
churches flourish and alsobuilding trust.
It builds lots of trust when youcan open the best time to get
feedback is when you invite it,right?

SPEAKER_02 (19:48):
It's the unsolicitive feedback when
you're not ready for it, whereyou're probably not not it
catches you off guard and youcan respond in all the wrong
way.
Yeah.
I think in an environment wherewhere there is, where there's
regular asking.
Looking for feedback actuallygives permission for people to
lead up.

SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
And that creates further trust because it's a
moment of vulnerability.
Yeah.
If you're saying, guys, tell mehow you would have done that
differently, or how do you thinkthat went?
Because I'm not too sure.
That's a very vulnerable thingfor anyone to ask.
That in turn builds furthertrust.
If you just start doing it offthe cuff and you've never done
it before, I reckon everyonewill just sit in silence.

(20:25):
They probably won't want tostep, step out and act.
But if you do it consistently,you can imagine an environment
where feedback goes both waysfreely, and you have the
foundation of trust.
And when we're talking abouttrust, we're not talking about I
trust that you'll do what yousaid you would do.
We're talking about the kind ofrelational trust where I know

(20:46):
that you are for me and I am foryou as we work together for the
cause of the gospel here.

SPEAKER_04 (20:54):
It's an allegiance, isn't it?
It's actually partneringtogether towards a common goal.
And we keep halfing on abouttrust, but I think it's because
if there is no trust in a team,people are far less willing to
share good ideas, to sharecreative thinking, to share, um,
I guess, ideas when it comes toproblem solving.
And so your ministry team willbe far less effective and

(21:16):
productive in terms of what itis they're working towards.
So the foundation of trust andactually a brotherly love with
each other is a really importantfactor in terms of thinking
about how your team might thriveand get through lots of hard
situations, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 (21:33):
Talk to me about confidentiality because you said
something, Michael, a minute ortwo ago about um the
confidentiality you'd of theconversation you'd had with the
congregation member and whetheror not you felt was it would
have been a breach to share thatwith the senior pastor.
Whereas I've always thought Iwant to say to my team member,

(21:54):
your primary confidentialityrelationship is with me, you
know?
So as your employer, do youknow?
So um, but just let's have alittle play around what you
guys, what do you would or whatdo you advise people to do as a
research consultant?
Tell us people.
Oh, we'll tell you vulnerableabout what they're I was
thinking, uh it's the it's notreducing someone's agency.

SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
So I I think the danger with the someone coming
to a second chair leader as ameans to get to a senior leader,
uh, the danger there is atriangulation where often they
ought to go and approach thesenior leader themselves.
Um I I think seeking people'spermission, if if you think this
is something that's worthy oftalking to your senior leader,

(22:38):
seeking permission for the fromthem to talk to them in advance
is probably the right way to go.
Uh, but I don't want to reducethat person's responsibility or
agency.
If there's an issue that theyhave with a senior leader and
they are triangulating, I I'd Iwant to reduce that triangle and
get and say take you know, youtake responsibility and speak to
them yourself.
They're not that scary, they'rewilling to hear about this,

(23:00):
maybe you could set up themeeting or something like this.
But uh at that level, I'd I'dreally want to increase that
person's agency so that theytake responsibility and which is
really just being mature andtalking to their to a leader in
advance.

SPEAKER_01 (23:14):
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
And sometimes if they don't thenwant to take that responsibility
and move forward with it, Iactually just let it wash over
me and I and I move on.
Um if it's a huge issue, youknow, I might think differently.
But if it's a if it's what Iwould consider a a minor gripe
about something, that's I thinkthat's part of a second share

(23:36):
leader's role is to absorb someof that and hold on not
necessarily hold on to, but Iguess bear the weight of some
some negativity or um even justbear the weight of um pastoral
issues that they can't sharewith anyone um and be okay

(23:56):
sitting in that in that place.
Obviously, you have to have a uma vibrant um uh walk with the
Lord yourself to be able to bearthat burden, but that is, I
think, a helpful part of yourrole.

SPEAKER_04 (24:08):
Um yeah.
I I was gonna add to that.
I think a really important thingis the agency you spoke about,
Pete, involves um uh a leadpastor, the the first chair,
actually giving their staff theagency over the areas they're
responsible for.
It can be very easy forministries to to silo when um to

(24:33):
get stuck behind um obstacleswhen actually that that leader
is not necessarily entrusting anarea to the person who has been
hired to do it.
And so that creates all kinds ofblockages.
It also is when the second chairleader maybe has some anxieties
about what it is they're tryingto execute or lacks that
identity in Christ, doesn't havethat full confidence in what it

(24:55):
is they're trying to achieve.
Um, we have to make sure thatthere is that trust and a
certain level of uh uh giving,handing over responsibility to
leaders for what it is thatthey've been entrusted to do,
trusting the Lord's sovereigntyover it first and foremost, but
making sure that actually in ateam, the people who are

(25:17):
involved are involved becausethey've been placed there for a
reason.
So in our team, it's not a hugestaff team.
Um I'm primarily responsible forchildren's ministry, and
obviously with that, there'sconfidentiality around safe
ministry and those types ofthings.
And making sure only the peoplewho need to be involved in
certain situations are arepulled in is a really important

(25:38):
thing because the whole thewhole team does not need to know
about someone's um familysituation where it is a private
matter, but making sure theright people do know is
important when it comes tosafety.
So things like that can be areally great example, but it may
even just be um pulling theright people in on a care issue.

(25:59):
The whole staff team doesn'tneed to know when someone is
struggling in a particular way.

SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
What do you do when somebody says to you, maybe
another woman says, I'm gonnatell you something, but don't
tell Dominic.
Or don't tell Toby in your case.
What do you do in thatsituation?

SPEAKER_04 (26:12):
I think often it's really important to clarify with
that person that you cannot, youcan't promise that to them.
Um, in some instances, you maybe able to say, um, well, it
depends, it depends what it isthat you're about to tell me.
Um, and sometimes it isimportant to keep that between
you and the person, maybe askingtheir permission to tell someone

(26:33):
else in certain instances if youfeel it's beyond your level of
expertise or what you canactually support them with.
Um yeah, I think being beingclear with the person is very
important.
Um, because often when we getinto sticky situations is when
we're not honest with the personand information is spread where

(26:53):
it shouldn't be or where itwasn't um supposed to be, um,
that's when people can getreally hurt.
So being important about thehonesty piece, um, being being
clear about that honesty pieceand making sure that um if
someone wants you to keep it toyourself, clarifying I'll need
to know what it is before um.

SPEAKER_01 (27:12):
What do you think, Dominic?
I was I know you're about to askme, but if you're the senior
leader and and one of your staffteam has that kind of
conversation, what what do youfeel like you want from your
staff member?

SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
What I want is I wanna I don't want to know every
detail of who is going out withwho and who would like to go out
with who and I I just can'tunless it's your own daughter,
right?
I I cannot cope with that ininformation and and actually
it's none of my business thatinformation.
But I've said to my team, ifyou're not sure whether or not

(27:48):
you should tell me, then tellme.
Do you know because you probablyshould.
You probably should, you know,and so um and uh I don't want to
discover some pastoral thingblows up and you knew about it
four months ago and you haddecided not to tell me because
you've actually made a decisionat that point to prioritize your

(28:09):
confidentiality relationshipwith that person over your
confidentiality relationshipwith me, and actually you're
here to help me.
You know, that's yeah, that'syour job.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (28:20):
It can be quite tricky in a in a um pastoral
role because uh I don't know ifyou guys find maybe this is a
female thing, but uh sometimesyou find out things not
necessarily because you are theone who has told them, uh, but
because people have filteredinformation back to you about
another person.
Um and so that can be quitetricky, particularly because I

(28:44):
think when it comes to um beingemployed in ministry, sometimes
in terms of the hard things thatare going on in their life,
maybe even in particular sin, umpeople are not as forthcoming
with you as a staff member allthe time.
And so working out how to umgently and lovingly approach

(29:06):
those conversations without itbeing that you've just heard
something on the gossip traincan be quite tricky.
Um, but important then to havethose care conversations in
place.
And actually it can be reallyhard to have those conversations
where you are um looking todelve deep into someone's life
and hoping that you've builttrust with them, even if they're

(29:28):
not on a staff team, that you'vebuilt enough trust and
relational rapport uh with themthat when you ask them
questions, they will be honestand forthcoming with you.
Um, so that you are in adiscipleship relationship where
you're hopefully helping themgrow to love Jesus more.

SPEAKER_00 (29:46):
I think perhaps the other thing is um most many of
our my staff over the years havebeen juniors.
And so um I can't train them inhow to handle a complex pastoral
situation if they don't tell mewhat the complex pastoral
situation is.

SPEAKER_04 (30:02):
And maybe they've been friends with the people
they're pastoring before they'veeven been on a staff team.
I know that was my experience.
And so there's a hard dynamicthere where you've um raised up
leaders from within, whereactually there's a pre-existing
relationship before um beforethat person was on uh a pastoral
staff team, where actually umyeah, the dynamic is a tricky

(30:24):
one to play at.

SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
Building a wall and building a bridge as a two I
see.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (30:32):
Um, so it's a it's uh just thinking about it in
terms of relationship.

SPEAKER_00 (30:38):
You and the other team members.

SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um part of that is is justactually being um a loving
Christian brother or sister.
So um I think uh it's possiblemaybe to do ministry together
with your sort of employment haton and then treat everyone in

(30:59):
the staff team, including yourboss, as though this is purely a
working relationship and nothingmore.
Um I guess even as Christians,as Christians, even if that was
the case, we should still beshowing love.
And so there's um there's a waythat you can just build uh it
doesn't need to be a a strongfriendship, although it might
be, um, but just a good, healthyrelationship by actually taking

(31:21):
an interest in your boss.
Um, what are their ministrypriorities right now and how can
you be helpful rather than whatdo I want to get done and how
can they be helpful to me?
Um pulling in the same directiontogether rather than um you
know, Meg mentioned silos,rather than sort of thinking of

(31:44):
your area of church as the mostimportant thing, um thinking
what is my boss concerned aboutright now?
What is our strategic plan forthe next 12 months?
How can I be a good, helpfulcontributor to that?
And some of that is actuallyjust straight up asking about
the priorities that you have atthe moment.
If you're not aware of them, umask.

(32:05):
And then try and be helpful toit's not sitting around going,
hey boss, I've got nothing todo.
How can I be helpful?
How can I help you withsomething?
Um, but it might be actuallyaligning some of your um your
area's priorities with yourboss's overall priorities.

SPEAKER_02 (32:24):
Um and they'll notice that.
Yeah, I reckon it highlights,Michael.
One of the things that a firstchair leader, what a senior
leader needs from a second chairleader is that they the second
chair leader needs to be reallydeep, really engaged in their
own area of responsibility.
And so all over it, all over theinitiatives that are needed, all
over the details, how it'sgoing, what needs to change.

SPEAKER_04 (32:45):
Agitating for it.

SPEAKER_02 (32:46):
Agitating for it, uh championing it, absolutely.
But at the same and so they'vegot this deep care for that work
they're responsible for.
But church is an ecosystem, andso but they so the second year
leader needs to care for thehealth of the whole ecosystem,
yeah, not just their part in it.
In fact, they need to care morefor the ecosystem of church, uh
just slight slightly bit morethan actually their particular

(33:07):
part in it, because that'sactually what will really help
the whole staff team, the wholeleadership team thrive.
Because at some times it thatthat's where it's a hard issue,
isn't it?
Going my area next year in ourstrategic plans, because lots of
churches are thinking throughnext year already right at the
moment, but there might be asecond tier leader who goes, I
really want all these resourcesand all this time and effort put

(33:27):
into my area because I love itso much.
But I can see the whole thing,the whole ecosystem needs more
energy over here.
Because I care more about thewhole, I'll be willing to have
less resources in my area forthis particular issue this next
year.
That is actually what a seniorleader needs from a second year
leader, that care for the whole,yeah, not just their one
particular part in it or two orthree particular parts in it.

(33:50):
But that actually comes aboutbecause in their heart, in their
pastor's heart, whether they'rethe first year or second
cheerleader, they're going, We Iwill just do whatever's best for
the gospel here, whateverwhatever is needed for the
kingdom.
I'll take responsibility for mypart, but I will care for the
whole.
That that's what the first chairand the second cheerleader need.

SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
There's stacks more to talk about, but we are out of
time.
I want to say thank you so muchto uh Pete Blanche from Reach
Australia, to Michael Daviesfrom Lighthouse Church in
Gorikan, and to Megan Stevensfrom Vine Church in Surrey
Hills.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.