March 9, 2026 • 29 mins
A refugee boy who walked barefoot from Rwanda to Burundi now leads the Global Anglican Communion.
In this special episode of The Pastor’s Heart, Dominic Steele speaks with Archbishop Laurent Mbanda of Rwanda, newly appointed chair of the council guiding newly inaugurated the Global Anglican Communion.
Speaking from Abuja, Nigeria, just days after the historic gathering that launched the new communion,
Archbishop Mbanda reflects on the extraordinary journey that brought him from displacement and poverty to global church leadership.
He shares the emotion and conviction behind the moment — why many Anglicans believe a new structure was necessary, why unity must be theological rather than geographical, and why the authority of Scripture remains central.
Archbishop Mbanda also responds to narratives circulating in the media — that the new movement is about women bishops or opposition to LGBT people — arguing instead that the central issue is the authority of Scripture and faithfulness to biblical teaching.
Along the way, Mbanda warmly commends Vaughan Roberts’ Lausanne Conference address and new book Full of Grace and Truth, urging churches to hold together biblical conviction and Christ-like grace in their response to questions of sexuality.
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SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
I studied Diploma in theology atBundle Bible College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit Anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_04 (00:40):
He was barefoot, walking from Rwanda to Burundi,
that little refugee boy, nowgrown up, now chairing the
council, leading the globalAnglican Communion.
Archbishop Laurent Mbunda iswith us on the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele.
We're in Abuja, Nigeria.
We're brought to you byAnglicanAid.
Go to Anglicanaid.org.
(01:01):
It has been a momentous week forthe Anglican Church around the
world with the celebration ofthe coming into being of the
Global Anglican Communion.
An acknowledgement that theCanterbury Instruments have
failed.
New chair have a councilconstituted to lead the Global
Anglicans is Archbishop LaurentMbunder of Rwanda.
(01:22):
Mbunder, thanks for coming totalk to us.
I want to ask you about yourpast as heart and your emotion
as you look back at theachievements of Abuja.
But I wonder, can I just startpersonally?
Because you've spoken to mebefore and you've written about
growing up Fairfoot Refugee Boyto now being chair of this
global Anglican communion.
(01:44):
It all must feel a bit surreal.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
Yeah, it's uh it's by God's grace.
You really feel like I don'tdeserve to be here.
But at the same time, you think,well, God is gracious, has been
gracious, is the only God whocould have done this.
And I can't believe it.
(02:09):
And it is exciting, but it'salso humbling.
It's very humbling to look backand realize where you are, to
look at the journey that youhave traveled with God's
protection, with God's hand,with God's provision, with God
opening doors that you never,never would have thought of.
(02:30):
Where people probably would nothave given you a chance.
And now you find yourself in aplace like this, and you say,
wow, what God has done isamazing.
And so you you you just think,now, how how how can you turn
(02:52):
against him and his teaching?
And I'm not saying people haveturned against him, but how can
you put that scripture that hasgiven you hope, that has brought
you closer to the Lord, and youput it aside.
It is very difficult tounderstand.
So it's exciting to be where weare, it's exciting.
(03:15):
I wish you saw the the joy, thedance, the uh people are saying,
you know, when you talk to them,it's like finally, something is
here.
And they feel they feel likeit's something that they have
labored for.
They feel like we talked, weconferenced if it is if that's
(03:38):
English, we were doing theconferences, we made the
statement, but it's like thereis something in the earth that
people were waiting for, andfinally this moment brings it to
life.
And uh and so when he said thefuture has come, the excitement.
(04:00):
Yeah, we've got a little bit ofvideo, which is everything on
the conflict floor, everythingon the platform, and really it
was um it's a bit even now, youknow, even now you meet the
(04:20):
people and they are raisingtheir hands and saying,
Hallelujah! And and and goinglike, yeah.
Yes, even down as I was waitingdown there going to the
breakfast, and people weresaying, people are still showing
excitement, people are stilldancing, people are still saying
thank you, Lord.
(04:41):
So this is something that peoplehave been waiting for.
And I think what they have beenwaiting for is not just to say
the future is here, it's sayingfinally things are clear.
I know where I'm heading, I knowwhere I'm going.
Finally, there are leaders I cantrust, finally, with the
orthodox belief and the Bibleteaching that people who are
(05:05):
actually holding it seriously,tensioning it, and realizing it
is something that we have tochange.
(05:30):
We have to take nothing.
And uh out of there is gonna be208.
Everybody thought that somethingis going to change.
People are going to return.
People are going to cometogether.
13, nothing happens.
218, nothing happens.
And yet people are reallypushing this message.
(05:52):
People are hoping, people arepraying.
And there are some areas whereyou felt like uh the leadership,
the category leadership was alsokind of somehow said, yeah, we
are in, no, we are out.
I think Welby gave a lot ofhopes to people thinking that
something will happen.
(06:13):
But there are also people whofelt betrayed, who felt uh, you
know, I remember him saying, I'man Evangel Kong, I'm uh uh I can
identify myself with East Africarevival.
And you would think, okay, soapply discipline to this.
Okay, bring people backtogether.
(06:35):
Okay, uh don't let this go anyfarther.
Uh but he did see that coming.
He said you would see changes,changes, changes.
So though we celebrate, but itwas said that people will not
repent, that people will not,it's like almost like hoarding
(06:56):
on institutional pride, if I canuse that term.
And it's hard.
But at the same time, we areexcited, we are ready to move,
people are happy, and uh it's aneye for the gospel and for the
proclamation of the gospel.
SPEAKER_04 (07:14):
Now, as I reflect, the theological emphasis that um
how unity is theological, notgeographical.
That's very important, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03 (07:24):
It is very important because um you can divide the
people any way you want.
But what brings us together isChrist, is our unity in Christ.
What brings us together is ourdoctrine.
What brings us together is ourtradition.
(07:45):
What brings us together is theteaching of the scripture.
When you take that away, itdoesn't matter, even
relationship doesn't workanymore because you cannot say
this is my brother, this is mysister in Christ.
And so the whole geographicalthing or the Sea of Cantony or
(08:06):
here or there, it doesn't come.
What counts is that doctrine, isthat teaching of the scripture
that holds us together.
That's where our unity is.
SPEAKER_04 (08:20):
Now, in Kidal in 23, uh we were expecting the group
of primates from the globalsouth and the group of leaders
from GAFCON to work together tobring this about.
Um I'm just reflecting on howdifferent the our final outcome
that we've got has turned out tobe, given that the global south
(08:42):
primates haven't come on thejourney.
And um how do you think it it'sdifferent?
SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
It is different, and we have to admit to that some of
the global south primates came.
There are people who are in bothcamps.
Yeah.
There are people who are in theglobal south, there are people
who are in in uh in the globalAnglican communion.
And um of course, Kigari gave alot of hope.
We stood together, we we we wereon the same page.
(09:16):
We were ready to move to follow.
SPEAKER_04 (09:18):
Together.
SPEAKER_03 (09:19):
In fact, one would have thought that this is
somewhere going to converge downthe road somewhere.
SPEAKER_04 (09:26):
Well, that's what Justin Bash rather said to me.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:29):
And we hoped it, we wanted it.
And um we even went and tried touh propose ways of
collaboration.
But I think soon we realizethese are two movements, these
are two organizations that haveto move parallel, but somehow
leave enough time for when it isall possible to come together.
(09:54):
Um and I think that the globalsouth has a lot of orthodox
leaders, bishops, and andprovinces.
There are others that do notknow where they are exactly, or
they know where they stand andwhere they are, they may be even
orthodox, but there is a littlehand out there that is wanting
(10:15):
something, and they cannot pullit back because they fear if I
pull it back, this that I wasexpecting, whether it is money,
whether it is what, I'm going tolose it.
So that keeps the tie.
Um but I think here is what Ithink GovCon in 208 had a
(10:39):
message.
The Jerusalem declaration.
We kept that moving thatdirection.
We stayed a course.
13 2013 was the same thing.
I think global south, you hearthem after the wash the and the
Ashwennies.
SPEAKER_04 (10:58):
Started right, the Ashwinis.
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Which was a great statement, which is when you
first hear them come out.
But after that, um, I know theyhave done some conferences.
Anyway, let me put it this way.
We continue to pray that theLord will bring that together.
But uh but something somewherewent wrong, and I don't know
(11:20):
what it is.
SPEAKER_04 (11:22):
And I'm hoping that what will happen is now that we
can see what the global ang theshape of the global Anglican
Communion and what it lookslike, and that it is
Christ-centered andtheologically, that actually
we'll now see invitations outand a number of other provinces
join up.
SPEAKER_03 (11:38):
Well, the Global Anglican Communion, we have our
arms open to embrace whoeverwill come.
And the door is open.
Whoever will come, sign theJerusalem Declaration.
That is the entry, that is theway you come in and be part of
us.
If you want to get, of course,into the leadership of the
(12:01):
Global Anglican Communion, yes,you will send that Jerusalem
Declaration, but you also haveto reject some of the
instruments or the instrumentsthat have not worked for us in
the past.
Now, these instruments have notworked because people in the
leadership didn't apply thediscipline.
(12:23):
The instruments in themselvescould have worked had the
leadership exercised thediscipline that is required to
hold people accountable.
But there was no accountability.
And so my my prayer and my hopeis that whoever orthodoxy
(12:45):
believer wants to come, the dooris open and we will embrace them
whole health country.
SPEAKER_04 (12:53):
Can we just talk about um as I've looked at some
of the reporting on the Bambujaconference that's uh been done
by the secular media, there'stwo narratives that I've seen
floating around.
One is that you've taken thisstep because the new leader of
the well, the new Archbishop ofCanary is a woman.
Do you want to respect to that?
SPEAKER_03 (13:15):
Yes, I think that's a wrong uh assumption.
I think there's a wrongnarrative.
I think what it is all about isabout the Bible.
It's about the teaching of theBible.
If you go against the teachingof the Bible, that's what is
wrong.
It's not about the fact that heis a woman leading the
(13:38):
communion.
Of course, we know that thereare provinces that do not
embrace that, they do not allowwomen in episcopacy, not even in
priesthood, but there are otherprovinces within the global
Anglican communion that allowwomen in priesthood.
(13:58):
And um uh so the rejection ofher leadership is not based on
the fact that she's a woman.
The rejection of leadership isbased on the the first teaching
and and not not putting theBible at the center.
It is about the authority ofscripture.
(14:19):
So when you go wrong on that,how can we walk together?
We are not equally yoked.
And I think that's where theissue is.
So let us not look elsewhere,let us look at what the
scripture teaches.
SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
And in fact, the trajectory was set in Kigali a
long time before.
SPEAKER_03 (14:39):
Yes, before she came.
It's not only in Kigali.
You go back to 2008, go back to13, go back to 2023.
It's really way before she came.
SPEAKER_04 (14:51):
Yeah.
And also, I just want to put toyou um the other narrative I'm
seeing around is that you'vetaken this step as an anti-LGBT
move.
SPEAKER_03 (15:01):
Again, that's wrong.
Again, we need to come back tothe scripture.
We need to come back to theBible.
The LGTP, however you want tocall it, they're welcome.
Let them come to the church.
Let come, let them find Christ.
(15:22):
Let their lives be transformed.
We are not saying no, don't cometo church.
We are not saying no, don't bepart of us.
If you want to come, come.
Let the Holy Spirit touch yourlife, let the teaching of the
scripture touch your life.
Let God Himself speak to youthrough His word.
SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
On uh on the uh Sanchex issue, uh I noticed
Vaughan Roberts, uh one of thedelegates, um, and a friend of
mine giving out uh this bookfrom his address at the Lasan
Conference, um, full of graceand truth, the uh gospel and
sexuality in the global church.
You were at that LasanConference, you've heard that
address, and you've reviewedthis book saying on the back
(16:08):
coverage says must read.
And what he really does is he, Imean, to use Anglican language,
he pushes down both poles ofLambeth 110 by saying we need to
be faithful to the truth, butalso extending grace.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Do you want to speak to that?
Well, it is true.
We need to be favored to thetruth, but we need no hate
people.
We don't want to hate people.
We don't want to say, no, youdon't belong to the church.
No, we want to say, come, comeinto the church.
Come hear the word of God.
So I think I think we need torespect each other and we need
(16:48):
to respect people.
We need to respect people forwho they are.
And instead pray that Christwill find them where they are,
and they will come to him, andthey will come to repentance.
So we are not we are not saying,no, we can't I cannot shake your
hand, but I can if you come tothe church, I will close the
(17:10):
door on you.
No, I will not close the door onyou.
I wish you could come.
I wish you'd you would come andlisten to the word of God.
And I would pray that the HolySpirit will touch your life and
you'll be transformed.
You say, I want to come and bein leadership.
Well come, let the time work foryou.
(17:33):
Come closer to the Lord.
And if you repent, and if you'vetransformed, well, the doors is
open for you to be where youwant to be because of God's plan
for your life, because of God'slove, because of believing and
(17:54):
trusting God for who He is, forthat transformation.
The old has gone, the new hascome if we have taken that step.
So you renounce that belief.
You you I think there are peopleprobably who are in that
category who have who havechanged their mind because of
(18:18):
the scripture.
Now what happens now?
What's the next step?
Well, well, the next it the nextis exciting.
The future is here, and we areglobal Anglican communion, and
now we need to go out and takethat word of God and teach it to
(18:45):
our people, disciple them,proclaim Christ.
I think I think for me it isalmost a renewed Matthew 28,
Matthew 28.
Go and make disciples.
We have to go and care forpeople, we have to go and meet
(19:08):
the needs of people where weare.
We have to go and proclaimChrist and shameful to the
nations.
We are to minister to peopleholistically.
Now we need to focus.
We need to preach the word ofGod.
We need to teach the word ofGod.
We need to reach the youth.
(19:29):
We need to minister to thewomen.
We need to minister to the poor.
We need to we need one of one ofa passion that I have of mind
now is to look at people who aredrifting in the so-called
(19:49):
because they are poor, or arelooking for resources in places
where they shouldn't be looking.
And that is destructive.
We need to think of ways ofsupporting our ministry, of
sustaining our ministry from theresources that come from our own
(20:10):
countries.
I'm not saying we will notpartner with uh Australia or US
in the gospel preaching.
Yes, we will need each other andwe have to collaborate, we have
to work together, we have tocome together.
But at the same time, we cannotcompromise the gospel because of
(20:32):
the little thing that you aredropping into my head.
And if that is going to corruptthe message I'm going to give to
me, if that is what is going todictate, and it's part of the
colonial mentality ofcontrolling, of divide and rule,
then I reject that completely.
(20:53):
I'd rather be poor than bemanipulated.
I'd rather be poor andcompromise what I believe and
all that.
I would rather be poor and seethe money there that you are
dwingling like this and betruthful to the teaching of the
scripture and not touch thatmoney.
SPEAKER_04 (21:15):
Now, you talked about not being manipulated by
money being dangled.
Um I see the Anglican aid areorganizing this global Anglican
Communion Fund.
Um is that help in that area?
SPEAKER_03 (21:29):
I think that's great.
I think that's help in thatarea, and that is very that's
welcomed.
I also think that Anglican Aidhas done quite a number of
things to theological education,to uh some of the economic
empowerment for women.
I think that has been reallygreat and very helpful.
(21:52):
It is something similar to thatglobal fund that they're talking
about that can pull people up.
Where we can have funds, or thatthat will help maybe develop
some income generatingactivities for the churches, for
the dioceses, for the process tobe able to sustain themselves
(22:17):
and sustain the ministry andactually fund the ministry and
programs that they want to do.
I've done that in Rwanda.
I can see that the work.
So I think that's what that'swhat we are looking into.
How we can empower.
(22:39):
And sometimes it's not just themoney that you have to pump in.
Sometimes it's a poverty mindsetsomewhere.
I don't have this, and yet it isin front of you.
What is it that you have in yourhead?
So I think I think rather thanpropagating this poverty
(23:00):
mentality, we need to look backand say, what do we have in our
hands?
A church that is notself-governing, self-propagating
and self-supporting, sweatstruggle.
And I'm not sure if it's achurch.
So uh as we don't want to createa social welfare by just
(23:24):
expecting what comes from there.
One time I was offered money byone of these um uh foundations
and episcopal uh tech.
And I was given ten thousanddollars just written to me.
(23:44):
I still have a picture of it.
But then I asked myself aquestion why are they giving me
this money?
I did ask for it.
Oh, you are a new archbishop,and you know, people will come
to you.
Plus, you can be part of us, youhave lived in the West, you
understand this culture, you canhelp your brother bishops.
(24:09):
That was a dangerous slopebecause I immediately saw that
they want to use me to get to mybrother bishops, and uh so we
give you this gift called thegift, but it was really buying
me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
And so I said, no, I'll take it, God bless you.
I can't take this now.
SPEAKER_04 (24:36):
You took a photograph.
SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
I took a photograph of it, I have it.
If you ever want it, I'll showit to you.
And but it was an entryway totry to manipulate me so that I
can help manipulate my brothers.
So I think what we now we haveto do, we need to move and have
(25:00):
programs for youth, haveprograms for women, have
programs that pull people out ofpoverty, preach the gospel.
Christ came so that they mayhave life, so that we may have
life and have it in abundance.
And this is not about theprosperity gospel, it is about
ministering to the total person.
SPEAKER_04 (25:22):
As I watch what's been going on here this past
week, I've seen uh great groupsrunning around and uh doing an
amazing job of networking toencourage ministry to children
and youth.
Um I've watched Bill Salia andthe theological college
networks.
Um, we've seen great thingshappening with the bishop
training and um talked to onebishop this week who'd been on
(25:44):
the conference, the bishop'straining conference, and spoke
about how hopeful it was.
Um my question is there's wordsabout preaching Christ.
But what are we going to do interms of structurally
encouraging preaching Christwithin the Bible for the
evangelism?
SPEAKER_03 (26:01):
Yes.
First of all, I think we need toequip people.
Equip them, build theircapacity, but also provide them
materials.
I think we need to network anddevelop strategic alliances with
those that are doing great workfor the kingdom, those that have
the skills, that have thecapacity, that have the
(26:24):
developed materials.
You are talking about uhtheological um education.
Let us network our institutionsso that they can complement each
other, so that they can supportone another, so that they can
resource each other.
You are talking about the youth.
Yes, let us expand that.
(26:46):
Expand that.
Let us invite others in.
Let us also equip our pastors,our young pastors, our young
people to be able to deliverthat message, to be able to
teach the youth, to be able torelate to the youth of today's
today, who are facing a lot ofpressures from this influence of
(27:08):
today's culture, if I may saythat word.
Um so uh at BTI, we willcontinue BTI, we will develop it
even more further.
Um, and that has been great.
Bishop's training.
Yes, bishop's training, youknow.
And uh so, yes, so we want towant to continue to develop uh
(27:32):
bishop training even further.
We want to and and not just keepit to the new bishops.
We want almost having what Iwould call almost like a
continuing education for eventhose who are on service.
Maybe even provide opportunitiesfor them to come together in a
non-formal sitting.
(27:52):
Let them be peer conscious ofeach other.
Let them share the success andthe frustration they are facing.
And I think my hope would bethat even pastors will get
opportunities like that to beable to share their
frustrations, to pray for oneanother, to share what works and
what doesn't work, to uh I thinkthat's to support each other in
(28:18):
the advancement of uh of thegospel and the proclamation.
So, yes, youth, uh theologicaleducation, bishop's training,
women's ministry, and of coursechurch market.
So we needed to look into thosenetworks that we have developed.
(28:40):
Some have worked very well,others have not gotten the
energy to move forward andactually pour more energy into
that, bring people that can helpus in that area, prayerfully,
prayerfully seek ways we canexpand um some of the work that
(29:02):
is being done in some countries.
You know, talk about the Gensec,the the the um the Ministry for
Youth here in um in Nigeria orin Brazil.
How can we expand that to us?
SPEAKER_04 (29:17):
Thanks very much for talking to us today.
Thank you.
Archbishop Laurent Mbanda, theuh Prime of Rwanda, and new
chair of the uh Global AnglicanCouncil, which is leading the
Global Anglican Communion.
My name's Dominic Spilly.
Been brought to you byAnglicanAid and
uhanglicanate.org.
And uh thanks for joining us.
(29:37):
We'll see you next Tuesdayafternoon on the Pastor's Heart.
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
I studied Diploma in theology atBundle Bible College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit Anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_04 (00:40):
He was barefoot, walking from Rwanda to Burundi,
that little refugee boy, nowgrown up, now chairing the
council, leading the globalAnglican Communion.
Archbishop Laurent Mbunda iswith us on the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele.
We're in Abuja, Nigeria.
We're brought to you byAnglicanAid.
Go to Anglicanaid.org.
(01:01):
It has been a momentous week forthe Anglican Church around the
world with the celebration ofthe coming into being of the
Global Anglican Communion.
An acknowledgement that theCanterbury Instruments have
failed.
New chair have a councilconstituted to lead the Global
Anglicans is Archbishop LaurentMbunder of Rwanda.
(01:22):
Mbunder, thanks for coming totalk to us.
I want to ask you about yourpast as heart and your emotion
as you look back at theachievements of Abuja.
But I wonder, can I just startpersonally?
Because you've spoken to mebefore and you've written about
growing up Fairfoot Refugee Boyto now being chair of this
global Anglican communion.
(01:44):
It all must feel a bit surreal.
SPEAKER_03 (01:48):
Yeah, it's uh it's by God's grace.
You really feel like I don'tdeserve to be here.
But at the same time, you think,well, God is gracious, has been
gracious, is the only God whocould have done this.
And I can't believe it.
(02:09):
And it is exciting, but it'salso humbling.
It's very humbling to look backand realize where you are, to
look at the journey that youhave traveled with God's
protection, with God's hand,with God's provision, with God
opening doors that you never,never would have thought of.
(02:30):
Where people probably would nothave given you a chance.
And now you find yourself in aplace like this, and you say,
wow, what God has done isamazing.
And so you you you just think,now, how how how can you turn
(02:52):
against him and his teaching?
And I'm not saying people haveturned against him, but how can
you put that scripture that hasgiven you hope, that has brought
you closer to the Lord, and youput it aside.
It is very difficult tounderstand.
So it's exciting to be where weare, it's exciting.
(03:15):
I wish you saw the the joy, thedance, the uh people are saying,
you know, when you talk to them,it's like finally, something is
here.
And they feel they feel likeit's something that they have
labored for.
They feel like we talked, weconferenced if it is if that's
(03:38):
English, we were doing theconferences, we made the
statement, but it's like thereis something in the earth that
people were waiting for, andfinally this moment brings it to
life.
And uh and so when he said thefuture has come, the excitement.
(04:00):
Yeah, we've got a little bit ofvideo, which is everything on
the conflict floor, everythingon the platform, and really it
was um it's a bit even now, youknow, even now you meet the
(04:20):
people and they are raisingtheir hands and saying,
Hallelujah! And and and goinglike, yeah.
Yes, even down as I was waitingdown there going to the
breakfast, and people weresaying, people are still showing
excitement, people are stilldancing, people are still saying
thank you, Lord.
(04:41):
So this is something that peoplehave been waiting for.
And I think what they have beenwaiting for is not just to say
the future is here, it's sayingfinally things are clear.
I know where I'm heading, I knowwhere I'm going.
Finally, there are leaders I cantrust, finally, with the
orthodox belief and the Bibleteaching that people who are
(05:05):
actually holding it seriously,tensioning it, and realizing it
is something that we have tochange.
(05:30):
We have to take nothing.
And uh out of there is gonna be208.
Everybody thought that somethingis going to change.
People are going to return.
People are going to cometogether.
13, nothing happens.
218, nothing happens.
And yet people are reallypushing this message.
(05:52):
People are hoping, people arepraying.
And there are some areas whereyou felt like uh the leadership,
the category leadership was alsokind of somehow said, yeah, we
are in, no, we are out.
I think Welby gave a lot ofhopes to people thinking that
something will happen.
(06:13):
But there are also people whofelt betrayed, who felt uh, you
know, I remember him saying, I'man Evangel Kong, I'm uh uh I can
identify myself with East Africarevival.
And you would think, okay, soapply discipline to this.
Okay, bring people backtogether.
(06:35):
Okay, uh don't let this go anyfarther.
Uh but he did see that coming.
He said you would see changes,changes, changes.
So though we celebrate, but itwas said that people will not
repent, that people will not,it's like almost like hoarding
(06:56):
on institutional pride, if I canuse that term.
And it's hard.
But at the same time, we areexcited, we are ready to move,
people are happy, and uh it's aneye for the gospel and for the
proclamation of the gospel.
SPEAKER_04 (07:14):
Now, as I reflect, the theological emphasis that um
how unity is theological, notgeographical.
That's very important, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03 (07:24):
It is very important because um you can divide the
people any way you want.
But what brings us together isChrist, is our unity in Christ.
What brings us together is ourdoctrine.
What brings us together is ourtradition.
(07:45):
What brings us together is theteaching of the scripture.
When you take that away, itdoesn't matter, even
relationship doesn't workanymore because you cannot say
this is my brother, this is mysister in Christ.
And so the whole geographicalthing or the Sea of Cantony or
(08:06):
here or there, it doesn't come.
What counts is that doctrine, isthat teaching of the scripture
that holds us together.
That's where our unity is.
SPEAKER_04 (08:20):
Now, in Kidal in 23, uh we were expecting the group
of primates from the globalsouth and the group of leaders
from GAFCON to work together tobring this about.
Um I'm just reflecting on howdifferent the our final outcome
that we've got has turned out tobe, given that the global south
(08:42):
primates haven't come on thejourney.
And um how do you think it it'sdifferent?
SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
It is different, and we have to admit to that some of
the global south primates came.
There are people who are in bothcamps.
Yeah.
There are people who are in theglobal south, there are people
who are in in uh in the globalAnglican communion.
And um of course, Kigari gave alot of hope.
We stood together, we we we wereon the same page.
(09:16):
We were ready to move to follow.
SPEAKER_04 (09:18):
Together.
SPEAKER_03 (09:19):
In fact, one would have thought that this is
somewhere going to converge downthe road somewhere.
SPEAKER_04 (09:26):
Well, that's what Justin Bash rather said to me.
Right.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (09:29):
And we hoped it, we wanted it.
And um we even went and tried touh propose ways of
collaboration.
But I think soon we realizethese are two movements, these
are two organizations that haveto move parallel, but somehow
leave enough time for when it isall possible to come together.
(09:54):
Um and I think that the globalsouth has a lot of orthodox
leaders, bishops, and andprovinces.
There are others that do notknow where they are exactly, or
they know where they stand andwhere they are, they may be even
orthodox, but there is a littlehand out there that is wanting
(10:15):
something, and they cannot pullit back because they fear if I
pull it back, this that I wasexpecting, whether it is money,
whether it is what, I'm going tolose it.
So that keeps the tie.
Um but I think here is what Ithink GovCon in 208 had a
(10:39):
message.
The Jerusalem declaration.
We kept that moving thatdirection.
We stayed a course.
13 2013 was the same thing.
I think global south, you hearthem after the wash the and the
Ashwennies.
SPEAKER_04 (10:58):
Started right, the Ashwinis.
SPEAKER_03 (11:00):
Which was a great statement, which is when you
first hear them come out.
But after that, um, I know theyhave done some conferences.
Anyway, let me put it this way.
We continue to pray that theLord will bring that together.
But uh but something somewherewent wrong, and I don't know
(11:20):
what it is.
SPEAKER_04 (11:22):
And I'm hoping that what will happen is now that we
can see what the global ang theshape of the global Anglican
Communion and what it lookslike, and that it is
Christ-centered andtheologically, that actually
we'll now see invitations outand a number of other provinces
join up.
SPEAKER_03 (11:38):
Well, the Global Anglican Communion, we have our
arms open to embrace whoeverwill come.
And the door is open.
Whoever will come, sign theJerusalem Declaration.
That is the entry, that is theway you come in and be part of
us.
If you want to get, of course,into the leadership of the
(12:01):
Global Anglican Communion, yes,you will send that Jerusalem
Declaration, but you also haveto reject some of the
instruments or the instrumentsthat have not worked for us in
the past.
Now, these instruments have notworked because people in the
leadership didn't apply thediscipline.
(12:23):
The instruments in themselvescould have worked had the
leadership exercised thediscipline that is required to
hold people accountable.
But there was no accountability.
And so my my prayer and my hopeis that whoever orthodoxy
(12:45):
believer wants to come, the dooris open and we will embrace them
whole health country.
SPEAKER_04 (12:53):
Can we just talk about um as I've looked at some
of the reporting on the Bambujaconference that's uh been done
by the secular media, there'stwo narratives that I've seen
floating around.
One is that you've taken thisstep because the new leader of
the well, the new Archbishop ofCanary is a woman.
Do you want to respect to that?
SPEAKER_03 (13:15):
Yes, I think that's a wrong uh assumption.
I think there's a wrongnarrative.
I think what it is all about isabout the Bible.
It's about the teaching of theBible.
If you go against the teachingof the Bible, that's what is
wrong.
It's not about the fact that heis a woman leading the
(13:38):
communion.
Of course, we know that thereare provinces that do not
embrace that, they do not allowwomen in episcopacy, not even in
priesthood, but there are otherprovinces within the global
Anglican communion that allowwomen in priesthood.
(13:58):
And um uh so the rejection ofher leadership is not based on
the fact that she's a woman.
The rejection of leadership isbased on the the first teaching
and and not not putting theBible at the center.
It is about the authority ofscripture.
(14:19):
So when you go wrong on that,how can we walk together?
We are not equally yoked.
And I think that's where theissue is.
So let us not look elsewhere,let us look at what the
scripture teaches.
SPEAKER_04 (14:35):
And in fact, the trajectory was set in Kigali a
long time before.
SPEAKER_03 (14:39):
Yes, before she came.
It's not only in Kigali.
You go back to 2008, go back to13, go back to 2023.
It's really way before she came.
SPEAKER_04 (14:51):
Yeah.
And also, I just want to put toyou um the other narrative I'm
seeing around is that you'vetaken this step as an anti-LGBT
move.
SPEAKER_03 (15:01):
Again, that's wrong.
Again, we need to come back tothe scripture.
We need to come back to theBible.
The LGTP, however you want tocall it, they're welcome.
Let them come to the church.
Let come, let them find Christ.
(15:22):
Let their lives be transformed.
We are not saying no, don't cometo church.
We are not saying no, don't bepart of us.
If you want to come, come.
Let the Holy Spirit touch yourlife, let the teaching of the
scripture touch your life.
Let God Himself speak to youthrough His word.
SPEAKER_04 (15:47):
On uh on the uh Sanchex issue, uh I noticed
Vaughan Roberts, uh one of thedelegates, um, and a friend of
mine giving out uh this bookfrom his address at the Lasan
Conference, um, full of graceand truth, the uh gospel and
sexuality in the global church.
You were at that LasanConference, you've heard that
address, and you've reviewedthis book saying on the back
(16:08):
coverage says must read.
And what he really does is he, Imean, to use Anglican language,
he pushes down both poles ofLambeth 110 by saying we need to
be faithful to the truth, butalso extending grace.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Do you want to speak to that?
Well, it is true.
We need to be favored to thetruth, but we need no hate
people.
We don't want to hate people.
We don't want to say, no, youdon't belong to the church.
No, we want to say, come, comeinto the church.
Come hear the word of God.
So I think I think we need torespect each other and we need
(16:48):
to respect people.
We need to respect people forwho they are.
And instead pray that Christwill find them where they are,
and they will come to him, andthey will come to repentance.
So we are not we are not saying,no, we can't I cannot shake your
hand, but I can if you come tothe church, I will close the
(17:10):
door on you.
No, I will not close the door onyou.
I wish you could come.
I wish you'd you would come andlisten to the word of God.
And I would pray that the HolySpirit will touch your life and
you'll be transformed.
You say, I want to come and bein leadership.
Well come, let the time work foryou.
(17:33):
Come closer to the Lord.
And if you repent, and if you'vetransformed, well, the doors is
open for you to be where youwant to be because of God's plan
for your life, because of God'slove, because of believing and
(17:54):
trusting God for who He is, forthat transformation.
The old has gone, the new hascome if we have taken that step.
So you renounce that belief.
You you I think there are peopleprobably who are in that
category who have who havechanged their mind because of
(18:18):
the scripture.
Now what happens now?
What's the next step?
Well, well, the next it the nextis exciting.
The future is here, and we areglobal Anglican communion, and
now we need to go out and takethat word of God and teach it to
(18:45):
our people, disciple them,proclaim Christ.
I think I think for me it isalmost a renewed Matthew 28,
Matthew 28.
Go and make disciples.
We have to go and care forpeople, we have to go and meet
(19:08):
the needs of people where weare.
We have to go and proclaimChrist and shameful to the
nations.
We are to minister to peopleholistically.
Now we need to focus.
We need to preach the word ofGod.
We need to teach the word ofGod.
We need to reach the youth.
(19:29):
We need to minister to thewomen.
We need to minister to the poor.
We need to we need one of one ofa passion that I have of mind
now is to look at people who aredrifting in the so-called
(19:49):
because they are poor, or arelooking for resources in places
where they shouldn't be looking.
And that is destructive.
We need to think of ways ofsupporting our ministry, of
sustaining our ministry from theresources that come from our own
(20:10):
countries.
I'm not saying we will notpartner with uh Australia or US
in the gospel preaching.
Yes, we will need each other andwe have to collaborate, we have
to work together, we have tocome together.
But at the same time, we cannotcompromise the gospel because of
(20:32):
the little thing that you aredropping into my head.
And if that is going to corruptthe message I'm going to give to
me, if that is what is going todictate, and it's part of the
colonial mentality ofcontrolling, of divide and rule,
then I reject that completely.
(20:53):
I'd rather be poor than bemanipulated.
I'd rather be poor andcompromise what I believe and
all that.
I would rather be poor and seethe money there that you are
dwingling like this and betruthful to the teaching of the
scripture and not touch thatmoney.
SPEAKER_04 (21:15):
Now, you talked about not being manipulated by
money being dangled.
Um I see the Anglican aid areorganizing this global Anglican
Communion Fund.
Um is that help in that area?
SPEAKER_03 (21:29):
I think that's great.
I think that's help in thatarea, and that is very that's
welcomed.
I also think that Anglican Aidhas done quite a number of
things to theological education,to uh some of the economic
empowerment for women.
I think that has been reallygreat and very helpful.
(21:52):
It is something similar to thatglobal fund that they're talking
about that can pull people up.
Where we can have funds, or thatthat will help maybe develop
some income generatingactivities for the churches, for
the dioceses, for the process tobe able to sustain themselves
(22:17):
and sustain the ministry andactually fund the ministry and
programs that they want to do.
I've done that in Rwanda.
I can see that the work.
So I think that's what that'swhat we are looking into.
How we can empower.
(22:39):
And sometimes it's not just themoney that you have to pump in.
Sometimes it's a poverty mindsetsomewhere.
I don't have this, and yet it isin front of you.
What is it that you have in yourhead?
So I think I think rather thanpropagating this poverty
(23:00):
mentality, we need to look backand say, what do we have in our
hands?
A church that is notself-governing, self-propagating
and self-supporting, sweatstruggle.
And I'm not sure if it's achurch.
So uh as we don't want to createa social welfare by just
(23:24):
expecting what comes from there.
One time I was offered money byone of these um uh foundations
and episcopal uh tech.
And I was given ten thousanddollars just written to me.
(23:44):
I still have a picture of it.
But then I asked myself aquestion why are they giving me
this money?
I did ask for it.
Oh, you are a new archbishop,and you know, people will come
to you.
Plus, you can be part of us, youhave lived in the West, you
understand this culture, you canhelp your brother bishops.
(24:09):
That was a dangerous slopebecause I immediately saw that
they want to use me to get to mybrother bishops, and uh so we
give you this gift called thegift, but it was really buying
me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:29):
And so I said, no, I'll take it, God bless you.
I can't take this now.
SPEAKER_04 (24:36):
You took a photograph.
SPEAKER_03 (24:38):
I took a photograph of it, I have it.
If you ever want it, I'll showit to you.
And but it was an entryway totry to manipulate me so that I
can help manipulate my brothers.
So I think what we now we haveto do, we need to move and have
(25:00):
programs for youth, haveprograms for women, have
programs that pull people out ofpoverty, preach the gospel.
Christ came so that they mayhave life, so that we may have
life and have it in abundance.
And this is not about theprosperity gospel, it is about
ministering to the total person.
SPEAKER_04 (25:22):
As I watch what's been going on here this past
week, I've seen uh great groupsrunning around and uh doing an
amazing job of networking toencourage ministry to children
and youth.
Um I've watched Bill Salia andthe theological college
networks.
Um, we've seen great thingshappening with the bishop
training and um talked to onebishop this week who'd been on
(25:44):
the conference, the bishop'straining conference, and spoke
about how hopeful it was.
Um my question is there's wordsabout preaching Christ.
But what are we going to do interms of structurally
encouraging preaching Christwithin the Bible for the
evangelism?
SPEAKER_03 (26:01):
Yes.
First of all, I think we need toequip people.
Equip them, build theircapacity, but also provide them
materials.
I think we need to network anddevelop strategic alliances with
those that are doing great workfor the kingdom, those that have
the skills, that have thecapacity, that have the
(26:24):
developed materials.
You are talking about uhtheological um education.
Let us network our institutionsso that they can complement each
other, so that they can supportone another, so that they can
resource each other.
You are talking about the youth.
Yes, let us expand that.
(26:46):
Expand that.
Let us invite others in.
Let us also equip our pastors,our young pastors, our young
people to be able to deliverthat message, to be able to
teach the youth, to be able torelate to the youth of today's
today, who are facing a lot ofpressures from this influence of
(27:08):
today's culture, if I may saythat word.
Um so uh at BTI, we willcontinue BTI, we will develop it
even more further.
Um, and that has been great.
Bishop's training.
Yes, bishop's training, youknow.
And uh so, yes, so we want towant to continue to develop uh
(27:32):
bishop training even further.
We want to and and not just keepit to the new bishops.
We want almost having what Iwould call almost like a
continuing education for eventhose who are on service.
Maybe even provide opportunitiesfor them to come together in a
non-formal sitting.
(27:52):
Let them be peer conscious ofeach other.
Let them share the success andthe frustration they are facing.
And I think my hope would bethat even pastors will get
opportunities like that to beable to share their
frustrations, to pray for oneanother, to share what works and
what doesn't work, to uh I thinkthat's to support each other in
(28:18):
the advancement of uh of thegospel and the proclamation.
So, yes, youth, uh theologicaleducation, bishop's training,
women's ministry, and of coursechurch market.
So we needed to look into thosenetworks that we have developed.
(28:40):
Some have worked very well,others have not gotten the
energy to move forward andactually pour more energy into
that, bring people that can helpus in that area, prayerfully,
prayerfully seek ways we canexpand um some of the work that
(29:02):
is being done in some countries.
You know, talk about the Gensec,the the the um the Ministry for
Youth here in um in Nigeria orin Brazil.
How can we expand that to us?
SPEAKER_04 (29:17):
Thanks very much for talking to us today.
Thank you.
Archbishop Laurent Mbanda, theuh Prime of Rwanda, and new
chair of the uh Global AnglicanCouncil, which is leading the
Global Anglican Communion.
My name's Dominic Spilly.
Been brought to you byAnglicanAid and
uhanglicanate.org.
And uh thanks for joining us.
(29:37):
We'll see you next Tuesdayafternoon on the Pastor's Heart.
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