February 16, 2026 • 30 mins
Well, we give it a serious go in 30 minutes.
What is the “righteousness of God”?
Is it faith in Christ or the faithfulness of Christ?
Who is the “I” in Romans 7?
What exactly is Paul saying about Israel and the Law?
How does Romans use the Old Testament?
And is the gospel mainly about individual salvation or shaping a new community?
Ridley College’s Brian Rosner has just released a major theological overview of Romans ‘Strengthened by the Gospel’ — and along the way he thoughtfully engages nearly every major scholarly controversy.
If you’ve ever taught Romans, struggled with Romans, or simply wanted to understand Romans more deeply you will enjoy this fast moving discussion through the controversies of Romans.
To purchase Strengthened by the gospel: https://reformers.com.au/products/9781433572555-strengthened-by-the-gospel-a-theology-of-romans-brian-rosner
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SPEAKER_01 (00:39):
All the controversies of Romans
resolved.
Well, we will give it a go in 30minutes.
It is The Pastor's Heart, it'sDominic Steele, and the author
of a new theological overview ofthe book of Romans, Brian
Rosner, is with us.
So what is the righteousness ofGod?
Faith of Christ or faith inChrist?
Who is the I of Romans 7?
What exactly is Paul sayingabout Israel?
(01:01):
What's the law in Romans?
Paul's use of the Old Testament.
We sought the new perspective.
And is Romans mainly aboutindividual salvation or a
community-shaping gospel?
It should be easy.
Brian Rosner has this new book,Strengthened by the Gospel, a
theology of Romans, giving asuper helpful theological
(01:21):
overview of the Apostle Paul'sgreat letter.
And on the way through, Briandeftly addresses just about
every major controversy that isswirling in New Testament
scholarly debates.
He's from Ridley College inMelbourne.
He's with us today.
Brian, you said in the prefaceyou've been teaching on Romans
for 35 years.
You've written this theologicaloverview.
(01:43):
I'm to ask you about yourpastor's heart.
But I just thought I'd startwith this little quote that I
found on page 143.
The conclusion to Romans 9 to 11demonstrates that the ultimate
goal of understanding andbelieving the gospel is not to
figure out God, but to arrive atawestruck incredulity and joyful
(02:10):
confidence in God.
It is to be blown away inwide-eyed, transfixed adoration.
The aim is not to achieveaccurate eloquence, but to
become lost for words in thepraise and wonder of God.
Amen.
Yeah.
That's your pastor's heart.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
I think so, yeah.
So it's interesting, isn't it,that that uh uh little
reflection is at the end ofRomans 9 to 11.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Yeah, well, that's because when I preached tonight,
I feel like I'm just so flat outtrying to not get lost in the
weeds, you know.
And you not just didn't get lostin the weeds, but you stood back
and looked at the awe and wonderof God.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Well, that's where Paul ends, isn't it?
So it's probably Paul's mostprofound theological essay, if
you like, Romans 9 to 11,treating those big topics of
Israel and election,reprobation, etc.
Um, but he does end with thisremarkable doxology, the most
beautiful doxology in hisletters.
He quotes Isaiah 40 and says,Who has known the mind of the
Lord?
And I felt like saying, well, Ijust thought we we got the mind
(03:14):
of the Lord.
But in the end, it it's it's notundermining what he said.
He he thinks we have accurateknowledge of God, but clearly we
don't know the the Godcompletely.
And and the goal is to be lostuh in wonder and praise.
I think the gospel takes usthere to the grace and greatness
of God in a in such a helpfulway and helps us to remain
(03:35):
humble, um, which is um anongoing challenge for all of us.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Now we're gonna do the interview equivalent of 2020
cricket, and uh I'm just gonnabowl you up ball after ball and
uh get you to respond.
The purpose of Romans ismultifaceted, you say.
Um, does that mean you can'tdecide?
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Uh, not at all.
So I think the purpose of Romansis best found in what we call
the letter framing.
So the uh the address, theintroductory thanksgiving, and
in the closing uh greetings.
Because Paul says in 111 and115, uh, I want to strengthen
you, hold that word, with uh thespiritual gift of me preaching
(04:13):
the gospel to you.
And then in Romans 16, he says,Um, um, may God strengthen you
with my gospel.
And I'd put in brackets, whichI've just explained to you.
So I think that that sums it upbeautifully.
Paul, when he's um, when when hegoes to a church he hasn't
evangelized, he wants to preachthe gospel to them nonetheless,
(04:34):
because the gospel's not justfor non-Christians, it's for
Christians, and it leads tostrengthening us to face evil,
uh, to remain humble, to loveone another, uh, to follow the
example of Christ and and tohave the hope of glory.
All of those things are rootedin the gospel.
So I think it's a mistake tokind of have a simple formulated
gospel.
(04:55):
There's nothing wrong with that,but we need to get the depth and
breadth of the gospel in orderto be strengthened by it.
Um the same he says the samething in 1 and 2 Thessalonians
with that little word tostrengthen, and then in Acts as
well.
When he goes to churches he'salready been to, he strengthens
them with the gospel.
And strengthen is your big wordin the title.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um and and you land on it in1625.
Yeah, it's just all through.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
Yeah, well, I think uh that that's the clue.
That the the verb to strengthen,horizo, it it it just turned it,
it um it only appears in 115 andthen in 1625.
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
What is the righteousness of God?
SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
So the righteousness of God is that little phrase
that occurs in what many regardas the thesis statement of the
letter in 116-17.
He says, the righteousness ofGod, dicaiosinethau, is um is
revealed in the gospel.
So that could mean a fewdifferent things.
It could mean God's attribute ofrighteousness and justice can be
seen.
It could mean God actingrighteously in condemning and in
(06:00):
saving us, or it could be a giftof righteousness, like imputed
righteousness, a new status.
And in short, I I think uhbasically the answer is yes.
So I think it's quite a pregnantphrase, if you want to put it
that way.
But probably the Old Testamentbackground pushes you in the
direction of the savingrighteousness of God.
(06:22):
Imputed.
Uh no, no, the the action ofsaving us is a righteous action
of God.
So in the Psalms, those two arewords uh uh deliverer, save, and
uh acting righteously are pairedquite often.
You do have imputedrighteousness in Romans 5, so
it's a gift of righteousnessthere.
So I think it's all there, butcertainly understanding the
(06:43):
righteousness of God is the keyto the letter, because you get
in Romans 1 to 4 righteousnessneeded under the wrath of God,
provided through the death ofJesus.
You get the precedent of Abrahamand David in chapter 4, and then
in 5 to 8, you've gotrighteousness, the effects of
righteousness.
9 to 11, you've got the uh uhthe rejection of righteousness,
(07:05):
Israel only partially believingin the Jewish Messiah, and then
righteousness in everyday lifeis 12 to 16.
I'm not the only one who saysthat, but it it structures the
letter quite beautifully.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
And you do say that you should read Romans like um a
snowball where the argumentbuilds as opposed to reading it
in half chapter chunks like wedo.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Yeah, there's a temptation, isn't there, when
reading a book like Romans,which is so dense and rich, you
you just, as the phrase goes,you get you lose the wood for
the trees.
And in the case of Romans, youlose the bark, you lose the
trees for the bark.
I mean, you just get so much ofthe details.
And people tend to think becauseit's got this really helpful
structure, one to four, five toeight, nine to eleven, twelve to
(07:47):
sixteen, all you need to knowWell, I can preach on one to
four this term, uh five toeight, term one next year.
Yeah, but I think it's acumulative thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
So um for example, you're saying don't do that,
you're saying preach it all atonce.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Uh, not necessarily.
I think you can you can chunk itup if you want to, but always
refer back to uh earlierpassages.
So, for example, Romans 12,famous passage where transformed
by the renewing of our minds.
That clearly takes your thinkingback to Romans 1, where the
depraved mind, so it's it's areversal.
Yeah.
So the renewed mind is thesolution to the depraved mind of
(08:25):
Romans 1.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Anthropological terms describing the human
being, uh body, flesh, mind,soul, spirit, conscience.
You see them in pairs.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yes, I see them in pairs, and the first thing to
say is I see them as holisticdescriptions of the human being.
So I don't think we should thinkin terms of a partitive
description of the human.
It's not like we have a body, wehave a soul, we have a spirit.
Uh the Old Testamentanthropology follows this as
well.
It's more holistic, it's kind ofperspectival.
(08:56):
So we have a body is theperspective on our existence,
which is uh the fact we're inrelationships and we're
physical.
Uh we we are we we are flesh,which means that we're weak and
uh we're prone to evil desires,we're frail.
Um, what was the next pair?
So uh soul.
SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
Oh, yeah, sorry.
Body, flesh, mind, heart, soul,spirit.
SPEAKER_00 (09:19):
Yeah, so soul and spirit, just to jump to that
one.
Um, soul just is our life,really.
It means we're living beings,and spirit is the perspective on
us that means we can relatedirectly to God.
It means we're spiritual beings.
So the it's an interesting, Imean, the pairing is something I
got from Jimmy Dunn's theology.
(09:40):
I think it's a helpful way of uhbringing them all together.
The really amazing thing is thatmost of these terms occur in
Romans 1 and 2.
(10:17):
So you read Romans 1 to 4 forthe teaching about judgment and
justification, but there youhave some remarkable teaching
about uh anthropology.
And the heart and the mind arerelated.
I mean, the heart tends to bemore uh the affections, it's
also kind of volitional, and themind is the ref the fact that
we're reflective beings.
(10:38):
So they're different angles onhuman existence.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Still in the first part of the book, you talk of
sin being personified.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Yeah, so um so sin, this is really broad
brushstroke.
Sin in chapters one to four isguilt, from which we need to be
forgiven, and justification isour new status before God as
part of the people of God, thenew people of God.
And then Romans 5 to 8, you doget a sort of personification of
sin.
You could almost put capital S.
(11:08):
And there is some dispute inscholarship.
So there's a school of thoughtwhich talks about the
apocalyptic theology of Paul,which thinks of sin as somehow a
cosmic power.
I think that's probablyunnecessary to go there.
I think Paul's just forcefullycommunicating about the way sin
enslaves us.
(11:29):
And but we we do need to takeseriously that the gospel
message is not just aboutdealing with our guilt, but
dealing with our bondage.
So freedom liberation is part ofthe gospel message.
You see that very clearly inRomans 6.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
Human beings being thought of as individuals or as
in corporate terms.
SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
Okay, this is fast bowling, really.
SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
We are fast bowling here.
Other places they let you soindividual colours to the wall.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Individual or corporate, the answer is yes.
Oh, no, no, no.
No, no, no, and look, I'm a bothend kind of guy.
So look, uh, it clearlyindividual uh is an important
perspective.
Let me back up slightly.
So the new perspective camealong and was really, really
concerned that um what theyperceived to be a reformed
(12:18):
Protestant emphasis was tooindividualistic.
It was Western.
So uh Paul's interested inindividual salvation.
They said, well, actually, he'smore interested in the salvation
of peoples, Jews and Gentiles.
That's the big thrust of Romans.
And the answer is um, sure, hehe is interested in individuals
in community, if you like.
(12:40):
The fact that he's stillinterested in individuals, even
though the Jew-Gentile issue isso prominent in Romans,
especially if in Romans 16.
I mean, he lists uh more than adozen individuals.
And in Romans 14 and 15, wherehe talks about disputable
matters, it's very clear that uhhe wants to uh um he he tells
(13:00):
individuals, the strong and theweak, on the issues of diet and
calendar, the Jewish scruples,that we're all accountable
directly to our Lord.
And again, that's a veryindividualistic approach.
So I think uh it's a mistake tothink just in either category.
Uh we are we're in uh asindividuals, we're we're um uh
(13:23):
our personhood is is inconnection with others.
We don't exist in isolation, sothere's an acknowledgement in
the Bible of that.
But it's also a mistake to thinkthat the the the ancient world
and the Bible only works incommunal categories.
There is still um a very clearindividualistic emphasis.
Each of us are responsible toGod for our sin, for our
(13:44):
response to the gospel, etc.
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
You just mentioned the new perspective.
I'm of the generation that gotthoroughly confused about that.
I was a theological collegechair, in that it had come out,
was raging, and yet hadn'tproperly been refuted.
Do you know?
And uh uh um just help me there.
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yeah.
So the new new perspective inscholarship is to some extent
parse.
So there's been a kind of uhcoming together of the two
views, not completely.
And my perspective on the newperspective in the book and uh
and other public yes, here I am,is that what it denies is not it
shouldn't be denied.
(14:25):
So in its worst form, it's saidthat justification is not about
our vertical relationship withGod, it's about our becoming
part of the new people of God,the church.
And I mean, both both are true.
So my little uh definition ofjustification is it uh gives us
a new status before God,justified, um, instead of being
(14:47):
under his wrath as sinners, aspart of a new people of God.
And you see that in Romans 3.
So, Romans 3, the famous passagewe all love, 3, 21 to 26, is
about our justification, ourdeclaration in the law court of
God, um, our being innocent, ourvindication uh through the death
and resurrection of Christ andascension.
(15:08):
And uh the second half of Romans3 goes on to say, Is God the God
of the Jews only?
No, he's the God of theGentiles.
So you can see there the peopleof God emphasis coming through.
I mean, that's just one aspectof the new perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Now, I'm sure I knew this, but I hadn't put it
together quite as pithily aswell, I hadn't in any way, in
compared to the way you havehere.
But just the number of termsthat you have used in Romans to
be saved is to be justified,forgiven, counted as righteous,
redeemed, set free, adopted intoGod's family, reconciled, united
(15:43):
to Christ, made holy, giveneternal life, granted honor and
glory.
Isn't that beautiful?
It is beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
So that that's what I would say to uh um our the
ministers listening and to theevangelists.
There's nothing wrong withtalking about salvation as
justification, but you can alsotalk about it as redemption,
reconciliation, liberation.
So that the Paul's gospel is umit covers the whole Christian
(16:09):
life as well as the entry intothe Christian life.
And uh hence, uh just harkingback to my title, um, having the
gospel applied to our livesstrengthens us to live um in
lives that please God.
Now you can see that just oneexample.
So um uh Romans 14 and 15,you've got disputable matters,
and Paul's approach to suchthings is is not to despise or
(16:32):
judge other believers.
And how does he get there?
Well, he appeals to the Lordshipof Christ, the kingdom of God,
the ongoing mission of thechurch, all of these, uh the
example of Christ, death on thecross.
So all of those things aregospel truths.
So gospel truths is the way towork out how to live.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
The word faith, used by Paul 140 times, um, but quite
a lot of those times in Romans,and um uh does faith not only
include belief and trust, butdoes it also include some form
of obedience and faithfulness?
SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
I I think um my my thumbnail definition of faith
would be belief plus trust plusaction.
It does issue in action, but itthat in no way undermines the
fact that uh salvation is agift.
So it's a reception, it's atrust, and it does lead to
action.
So so, in a sense, grace too.
(17:31):
Grace is this uh lavish,undeserved kindness and
generosity of God, but it doestransform us.
It doesn't just leave us withthe gift.
Don Carson used to say that inthe gospel, gift and demand go
together.
So I think um whether you attachthat demand to the notion of
faith or to grace or tosomething else, it it doesn't
(17:54):
really matter, but certainlyyou've you've got to make clear
in preaching the gospel thatwe're to count the cost and to
follow Christ.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
Now I want to push into the eye in Romans 7.
Okay.
Um you were you were prettybrief on page 150 on this, um,
but you said you agreed withWill Timmys.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Um tell us about Will Timmys and his article and
Well Will Will's got a wholebook with Cambridge University
Press, his doctorate with myfriend Peter Head.
So so basically, um Romans 7, aslisteners probably know, there's
dispute over who is the I.
So Paul says I put it in thepresent tense.
So it sounds like he's talkingabout his present experience,
(18:36):
but other people have said wellnow we will have some people who
are not ministers listening.
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
So just um give us a couple of lines.
SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
Yeah, so um um I the the thing I want to do, I cannot
do, and I'm sold under sin, thatthat kind of thing.
Really quite negative,disturbing things.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
And I'm looking at my life and feeling unhappy
about my life.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
I I yeah, I think um so the trick with my sin, yeah.
Yes, but it the the way tounderstand the eye there is to
read it in context, whichshouldn't surprise you.
So the context is very helpfulwhen you're reading in the light
of Romans 6 and in the light ofRomans 8.
So you especially you shouldn'tread Romans 7 without Romans 8.
(19:18):
So even if you say this is Paultalking about his pre-Christian
existence, Romans 8, Galatians5, Ephesians 6 has conflict in
the Christian life.
There's still struggle andwarfare.
But I think Romans 7 is talkingin really bleak terms about our
fleshly existence, which isongoing, um, and the fact that
(19:41):
we are tempted to sin, andsometimes we can feel as if
we're in bondage to sin.
But the good news of the gospelin Romans 6 is that we are
released from the mastery ofsin, and we ought not to let sin
reign in our mortal bodies.
And then in Romans 8, you've gotto read that as a complement to
Romans 7, which shows us thatthe Spirit's work, as the
Spirit's not mentioned in Romans7, the Spirit's work in our
(20:03):
lives can give us confidence anduh uh make us more optimistic
about the future.
So it's a lovely balance betweenour status, which gives us the
grounds to combat sin in ourlives, but a realistic appraisal
of just how difficult ourfleshly existence is and how
prone we are to sin.
SPEAKER_01 (20:25):
And Will Timmys persuaded Tom Shriner to change
his mind on who the I was inRomans 7.
Yep.
And Tom Shriner, co-author withyou or of you of this series,
and giant in New Testamentscholarship.
Yeah, I mean, it did feel adecade ago like anyone who said
(20:49):
that the I was me and my currentChristian life was kind of
blinkered, not listening toscholarship, um, just running on
prejudice.
Yep.
But now we have threeheavyweights at least.
We'll just well, I'm not aheavyweight, but you, Tom
Schreiner, Will Timmins, allsaying it's me.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah.
Um, look, it's one of thoseexegetical problems that I
wouldn't go to the stake for.
So if you I I say to this tostudents sometimes, uh, if you
put a gun to my head and said,Brian, what who do you think uh
the I is in Romans 7?
I'd say, what do you think?
So so so basically I don't thinkproperly understood there's an
(21:34):
enormous amount at stake.
Because you both views haveconflict in the Christian life.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
And you do you do expect conflict in the Christian
life, even if you take the otherview of Romans.
Correct.
Yeah.
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So because then it's between theflesh and the spirit, which
which is where we arrive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now Will Timmins, I mean, it'sit's a very technical
discussion, but it's worthreading.
There is, I think, a GospelCoalition article if people
wanted to have a look, where hekind of lays it out in um um
kind of um his CUP monograph fordummies.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
Now, because I'm not paying Which I was happy to
read.
But because I'm not payingattention in detail to this, um
where's the discussion up to inthe wider field of New Testament
scholarship?
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Um it it's still all over the place.
Yeah.
There's there's still discussionof these matters ongoing.
So it's not even amongevangelicals.
So I think this this is thedisputed matter of
interpretation that will will beongoing.
But but my concern is, as I'vealready said several times, that
we maintain the dual emphasis ofour precarious fleshly
(22:43):
existence, prone to evil.
Um, I mean, the Lord JesusHimself said to his disciples,
you being evil.
So we we have that propensity,but also the confidence and uh
outlook which says we have a newstatus, we have new resources,
and by God's grace.
With his help, we can, as Paulsays in Romans 6, um, not allow
(23:04):
sin to reign in our mortalbodies.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Does pistus christou refer to faith in Jesus Christ
or the faithfulness of JesusChrist?
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Okay, so pistus Christu literally is faith of
Christ.
Yep.
And as you know, and in Romansthree, Paul says that we're
justified by pistus Christus, byfaith of Jesus Christ.
Now it could mean faith in JesusChrist, or it could mean we're
justified by the faithfulness ofJesus Christ.
(23:34):
And there's a couple of reasonspeople prefer the latter.
They look in Romans 3 and theysay, well, Paul's already said
several times that we'rejustified by faith.
So he must be saying somethingdifferent here.
And then you get usage isanother big category in
scholarship in interpretation,and you get um a little phrase,
the uh faith of Abraham.
(23:56):
And clearly that's not faith inAbraham, that's Abraham's faith.
So people say, look, uh Paul'ssaying we're justified by
Christ's faithfulness.
Okay, stepping back, um, I Ithink um one way to say it would
be one person's redundancy,which is what people are saying
it would be redundant to repeatfaith in Christ, is another
(24:17):
person's emphasis.
I just think Paul's uh reallyunderscoring that the means of
salvation we're saved by gracethrough faith and trust.
Yep.
But again, it's true to say,theologically, it's true, that
Jesus' faithfulness andobedience is fundamental to our
(24:38):
salvation.
Romans 5 says that.
Talks about the the obedience ofChrist being so important in the
plan of salvation.
Philippians 2 talks about him insimilar terms.
It doesn't use the termfaithfulness, but um um concepts
are bigger than terms.
It it is a synonym for whatwe're talking about here.
So faith in Christ.
(24:59):
I think it's faith in Christ,yeah.
But again, I wouldn't go to thestake.
I know we want you to go to thestake on this one.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
Okay.
What about the law in Romans?
What's going on there?
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Oh, um much in every way.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
So the law condemns Well wisdom and prophecy or I
think we get a bit of each.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
And yeah, you're um alluding to my book on Paul and
the law, and it works forRomans, I think.
So basically, you've got veryclearly that we're not under the
law as a legal code.
Yep.
And that's in Romans 2, and thenwe're not under the law, Romans
6 says that as well.
Uh, does that mean the law is ofno use to us?
Well, clearly not, because Paulsays in Romans 3.21 that the law
(25:44):
and the prophets testify uh tothe righteousness of God in the
gospel.
So the law has a propheticfunction.
Yep.
And you see that, uh, law andthe prophets, for that matter.
You see that in chapter four.
So Paul quotes the law, Abraham,Genesis 15, 6.
Uh Abraham believed God and itwas credited to him as
righteousness.
And he also quotes uh Psalm 32from David and the prophets.
(26:07):
But then I think once you get tothe second half of the letter
and there's more talk aboutconduct, you can also see the
law playing a role as wisdom.
And people get nervous when theyhear that.
They think, oh, I don't have toobey the law.
No, it's not like that at all.
So it let's think of the law notto murder.
That most of us are going to getthrough life without murdering
(26:29):
pretty happily.
Yep.
But the way you're so far sogood.
The way you apply that, and theway Paul applies it, and Jesus
for that matter, is to say,well, actually, the law against
murder, we should uh takeinternalize that and have an
expansive application, meaningthat we shouldn't be um overly
angry with a brother or sister,we shouldn't slander them, and
(26:51):
on the other side, we should actin love.
So I think the law is part ofGod's word, inspired, helpful
for our instruction andtraining, but we're not under,
thankfully, the condemnation ofthe law uh because we don't um
obey it completely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Now, Israel, um Romans 9 to 11.
Uh, I mean Israel very sensitiveat the moment, but um uh we'll
take it.
I'm from a Jewish background, sogood.
Yeah, yep.
Well, what did it do for you asyou were working on these these
chapters?
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Uh yeah, look, it's um there are two crux texts on
uh the relationship of Israel tothe church.
Uh Roman, the end of Romans 11,Paul has that little phrase,
thus the the Redeemer, um, no,the deliverer will come from
Zion, and thus all Israel willbe saved.
And you've got to ask, what'sthe referent of Israel?
(27:46):
Who who is Israel there?
And uh I'm of the view thatIsrael is still ethnic Israel.
So I don't think Paul'sreferences to Israel, the other
one's um Galatians 6, 16, Ithink it is, where he talks
about uh peace be upon uh theIsrael of God.
So I think there's some sense,as Romans 9 to 11 says, the
(28:07):
gifts and calling of God areirrevocable, and the word of God
has not failed.
So the promises to ethnic Israelare such that God will be
faithful to his historic people.
Now, what does that mean?
This is where it gets a bitfuzzy, but clearly at the end of
Romans 11, he seems to thinkthat at the end time, somehow,
(28:29):
all Israel, which I think is atechnical term for a remnant of
Israel, will believe in theJewish Messiah.
Um, how that relates to theMiddle East, um, we're not gonna
go there.
Um, I I think the Middle Eastshould be treated as a separate
topic.
Um, uh as citizens in ourcountries, we should think and
(28:49):
talk about the crises in theMiddle East apart from those um
biblical promises.
Um that's basically where whereI land.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
So, Brian, I just want to say thank you so much
for what you've done here.
Um, I have found it good for me,both in terms of my knowledge,
but also for my pastor's heartreading it.
I'm I'm looking forward to goingover it in more detail in my
personal Bible reading over thenext few weeks, and I'm looking
forward to having it as acompanion when I next come to
(29:20):
teach on Romans.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Thanks, Dominic.
It's actually part of a20-volume series that Tom and I
edit.
So it's kind of we cover thewhole New Testament, just giving
preachers and people in seminaryand college classes a little
overview of a little overviewintroduction.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
And I could see, I mean, I've gone through in the
pulpit Romans twice, and uh Ithought, oh, if I'd had this
before I'd done either of thoseones, it would have been better.
And so I'll definitely have itas a companion for my next
preaching journey.
It's very kind of encouraging.
Thanks, Dominic.
I mean, and uh I mean, must havedone you good doing the work.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Oh, it's a great privilege.
I mean, Romans is is magnificentand it's it's very humbling, and
as we started out by saying, itdoes lead you to sit back and uh
be awestruck uh in the uh uhpresence of our gracious and
great God.
unknown (30:12):
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
Brian Rosn has been my guest.
He's from Ridley College inMelbourne.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and the book is
Strengthened by the Gospel, atheology of Romans.
All the controversies of Romans
resolved.
Well, we will give it a go in 30minutes.
It is The Pastor's Heart, it'sDominic Steele, and the author
of a new theological overview ofthe book of Romans, Brian
Rosner, is with us.
So what is the righteousness ofGod?
Faith of Christ or faith inChrist?
Who is the I of Romans 7?
What exactly is Paul sayingabout Israel?
(01:01):
What's the law in Romans?
Paul's use of the Old Testament.
We sought the new perspective.
And is Romans mainly aboutindividual salvation or a
community-shaping gospel?
It should be easy.
Brian Rosner has this new book,Strengthened by the Gospel, a
theology of Romans, giving asuper helpful theological
(01:21):
overview of the Apostle Paul'sgreat letter.
And on the way through, Briandeftly addresses just about
every major controversy that isswirling in New Testament
scholarly debates.
He's from Ridley College inMelbourne.
He's with us today.
Brian, you said in the prefaceyou've been teaching on Romans
for 35 years.
You've written this theologicaloverview.
(01:43):
I'm to ask you about yourpastor's heart.
But I just thought I'd startwith this little quote that I
found on page 143.
The conclusion to Romans 9 to 11demonstrates that the ultimate
goal of understanding andbelieving the gospel is not to
figure out God, but to arrive atawestruck incredulity and joyful
(02:10):
confidence in God.
It is to be blown away inwide-eyed, transfixed adoration.
The aim is not to achieveaccurate eloquence, but to
become lost for words in thepraise and wonder of God.
Amen.
Yeah.
That's your pastor's heart.
SPEAKER_00 (02:31):
I think so, yeah.
So it's interesting, isn't it,that that uh uh little
reflection is at the end ofRomans 9 to 11.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Yeah, well, that's because when I preached tonight,
I feel like I'm just so flat outtrying to not get lost in the
weeds, you know.
And you not just didn't get lostin the weeds, but you stood back
and looked at the awe and wonderof God.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
Well, that's where Paul ends, isn't it?
So it's probably Paul's mostprofound theological essay, if
you like, Romans 9 to 11,treating those big topics of
Israel and election,reprobation, etc.
Um, but he does end with thisremarkable doxology, the most
beautiful doxology in hisletters.
He quotes Isaiah 40 and says,Who has known the mind of the
Lord?
And I felt like saying, well, Ijust thought we we got the mind
(03:14):
of the Lord.
But in the end, it it's it's notundermining what he said.
He he thinks we have accurateknowledge of God, but clearly we
don't know the the Godcompletely.
And and the goal is to be lostuh in wonder and praise.
I think the gospel takes usthere to the grace and greatness
of God in a in such a helpfulway and helps us to remain
(03:35):
humble, um, which is um anongoing challenge for all of us.
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Now we're gonna do the interview equivalent of 2020
cricket, and uh I'm just gonnabowl you up ball after ball and
uh get you to respond.
The purpose of Romans ismultifaceted, you say.
Um, does that mean you can'tdecide?
SPEAKER_00 (03:53):
Uh, not at all.
So I think the purpose of Romansis best found in what we call
the letter framing.
So the uh the address, theintroductory thanksgiving, and
in the closing uh greetings.
Because Paul says in 111 and115, uh, I want to strengthen
you, hold that word, with uh thespiritual gift of me preaching
(04:13):
the gospel to you.
And then in Romans 16, he says,Um, um, may God strengthen you
with my gospel.
And I'd put in brackets, whichI've just explained to you.
So I think that that sums it upbeautifully.
Paul, when he's um, when when hegoes to a church he hasn't
evangelized, he wants to preachthe gospel to them nonetheless,
(04:34):
because the gospel's not justfor non-Christians, it's for
Christians, and it leads tostrengthening us to face evil,
uh, to remain humble, to loveone another, uh, to follow the
example of Christ and and tohave the hope of glory.
All of those things are rootedin the gospel.
So I think it's a mistake tokind of have a simple formulated
gospel.
(04:55):
There's nothing wrong with that,but we need to get the depth and
breadth of the gospel in orderto be strengthened by it.
Um the same he says the samething in 1 and 2 Thessalonians
with that little word tostrengthen, and then in Acts as
well.
When he goes to churches he'salready been to, he strengthens
them with the gospel.
And strengthen is your big wordin the title.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um and and you land on it in1625.
Yeah, it's just all through.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
Yeah, well, I think uh that that's the clue.
That the the verb to strengthen,horizo, it it it just turned it,
it um it only appears in 115 andthen in 1625.
Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (05:34):
What is the righteousness of God?
SPEAKER_00 (05:36):
So the righteousness of God is that little phrase
that occurs in what many regardas the thesis statement of the
letter in 116-17.
He says, the righteousness ofGod, dicaiosinethau, is um is
revealed in the gospel.
So that could mean a fewdifferent things.
It could mean God's attribute ofrighteousness and justice can be
seen.
It could mean God actingrighteously in condemning and in
(06:00):
saving us, or it could be a giftof righteousness, like imputed
righteousness, a new status.
And in short, I I think uhbasically the answer is yes.
So I think it's quite a pregnantphrase, if you want to put it
that way.
But probably the Old Testamentbackground pushes you in the
direction of the savingrighteousness of God.
(06:22):
Imputed.
Uh no, no, the the action ofsaving us is a righteous action
of God.
So in the Psalms, those two arewords uh uh deliverer, save, and
uh acting righteously are pairedquite often.
You do have imputedrighteousness in Romans 5, so
it's a gift of righteousnessthere.
So I think it's all there, butcertainly understanding the
(06:43):
righteousness of God is the keyto the letter, because you get
in Romans 1 to 4 righteousnessneeded under the wrath of God,
provided through the death ofJesus.
You get the precedent of Abrahamand David in chapter 4, and then
in 5 to 8, you've gotrighteousness, the effects of
righteousness.
9 to 11, you've got the uh uhthe rejection of righteousness,
(07:05):
Israel only partially believingin the Jewish Messiah, and then
righteousness in everyday lifeis 12 to 16.
I'm not the only one who saysthat, but it it structures the
letter quite beautifully.
SPEAKER_01 (07:15):
And you do say that you should read Romans like um a
snowball where the argumentbuilds as opposed to reading it
in half chapter chunks like wedo.
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Yeah, there's a temptation, isn't there, when
reading a book like Romans,which is so dense and rich, you
you just, as the phrase goes,you get you lose the wood for
the trees.
And in the case of Romans, youlose the bark, you lose the
trees for the bark.
I mean, you just get so much ofthe details.
And people tend to think becauseit's got this really helpful
structure, one to four, five toeight, nine to eleven, twelve to
(07:47):
sixteen, all you need to knowWell, I can preach on one to
four this term, uh five toeight, term one next year.
Yeah, but I think it's acumulative thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:58):
So um for example, you're saying don't do that,
you're saying preach it all atonce.
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
Uh, not necessarily.
I think you can you can chunk itup if you want to, but always
refer back to uh earlierpassages.
So, for example, Romans 12,famous passage where transformed
by the renewing of our minds.
That clearly takes your thinkingback to Romans 1, where the
depraved mind, so it's it's areversal.
Yeah.
So the renewed mind is thesolution to the depraved mind of
(08:25):
Romans 1.
SPEAKER_01 (08:26):
Anthropological terms describing the human
being, uh body, flesh, mind,soul, spirit, conscience.
You see them in pairs.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Yes, I see them in pairs, and the first thing to
say is I see them as holisticdescriptions of the human being.
So I don't think we should thinkin terms of a partitive
description of the human.
It's not like we have a body, wehave a soul, we have a spirit.
Uh the Old Testamentanthropology follows this as
well.
It's more holistic, it's kind ofperspectival.
(08:56):
So we have a body is theperspective on our existence,
which is uh the fact we're inrelationships and we're
physical.
Uh we we are we we are flesh,which means that we're weak and
uh we're prone to evil desires,we're frail.
Um, what was the next pair?
So uh soul.
SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
Oh, yeah, sorry.
Body, flesh, mind, heart, soul,spirit.
SPEAKER_00 (09:19):
Yeah, so soul and spirit, just to jump to that
one.
Um, soul just is our life,really.
It means we're living beings,and spirit is the perspective on
us that means we can relatedirectly to God.
It means we're spiritual beings.
So the it's an interesting, Imean, the pairing is something I
got from Jimmy Dunn's theology.
(09:40):
I think it's a helpful way of uhbringing them all together.
The really amazing thing is thatmost of these terms occur in
Romans 1 and 2.
(10:17):
So you read Romans 1 to 4 forthe teaching about judgment and
justification, but there youhave some remarkable teaching
about uh anthropology.
And the heart and the mind arerelated.
I mean, the heart tends to bemore uh the affections, it's
also kind of volitional, and themind is the ref the fact that
we're reflective beings.
(10:38):
So they're different angles onhuman existence.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
Still in the first part of the book, you talk of
sin being personified.
SPEAKER_00 (10:47):
Yeah, so um so sin, this is really broad
brushstroke.
Sin in chapters one to four isguilt, from which we need to be
forgiven, and justification isour new status before God as
part of the people of God, thenew people of God.
And then Romans 5 to 8, you doget a sort of personification of
sin.
You could almost put capital S.
(11:08):
And there is some dispute inscholarship.
So there's a school of thoughtwhich talks about the
apocalyptic theology of Paul,which thinks of sin as somehow a
cosmic power.
I think that's probablyunnecessary to go there.
I think Paul's just forcefullycommunicating about the way sin
enslaves us.
(11:29):
And but we we do need to takeseriously that the gospel
message is not just aboutdealing with our guilt, but
dealing with our bondage.
So freedom liberation is part ofthe gospel message.
You see that very clearly inRomans 6.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
Human beings being thought of as individuals or as
in corporate terms.
SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
Okay, this is fast bowling, really.
SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
We are fast bowling here.
Other places they let you soindividual colours to the wall.
SPEAKER_00 (11:58):
Individual or corporate, the answer is yes.
Oh, no, no, no.
No, no, no, and look, I'm a bothend kind of guy.
So look, uh, it clearlyindividual uh is an important
perspective.
Let me back up slightly.
So the new perspective camealong and was really, really
concerned that um what theyperceived to be a reformed
(12:18):
Protestant emphasis was tooindividualistic.
It was Western.
So uh Paul's interested inindividual salvation.
They said, well, actually, he'smore interested in the salvation
of peoples, Jews and Gentiles.
That's the big thrust of Romans.
And the answer is um, sure, hehe is interested in individuals
in community, if you like.
(12:40):
The fact that he's stillinterested in individuals, even
though the Jew-Gentile issue isso prominent in Romans,
especially if in Romans 16.
I mean, he lists uh more than adozen individuals.
And in Romans 14 and 15, wherehe talks about disputable
matters, it's very clear that uhhe wants to uh um he he tells
(13:00):
individuals, the strong and theweak, on the issues of diet and
calendar, the Jewish scruples,that we're all accountable
directly to our Lord.
And again, that's a veryindividualistic approach.
So I think uh it's a mistake tothink just in either category.
Uh we are we're in uh asindividuals, we're we're um uh
(13:23):
our personhood is is inconnection with others.
We don't exist in isolation, sothere's an acknowledgement in
the Bible of that.
But it's also a mistake to thinkthat the the the ancient world
and the Bible only works incommunal categories.
There is still um a very clearindividualistic emphasis.
Each of us are responsible toGod for our sin, for our
(13:44):
response to the gospel, etc.
SPEAKER_01 (13:46):
You just mentioned the new perspective.
I'm of the generation that gotthoroughly confused about that.
I was a theological collegechair, in that it had come out,
was raging, and yet hadn'tproperly been refuted.
Do you know?
And uh uh um just help me there.
SPEAKER_00 (14:04):
Yeah.
So the new new perspective inscholarship is to some extent
parse.
So there's been a kind of uhcoming together of the two
views, not completely.
And my perspective on the newperspective in the book and uh
and other public yes, here I am,is that what it denies is not it
shouldn't be denied.
(14:25):
So in its worst form, it's saidthat justification is not about
our vertical relationship withGod, it's about our becoming
part of the new people of God,the church.
And I mean, both both are true.
So my little uh definition ofjustification is it uh gives us
a new status before God,justified, um, instead of being
(14:47):
under his wrath as sinners, aspart of a new people of God.
And you see that in Romans 3.
So, Romans 3, the famous passagewe all love, 3, 21 to 26, is
about our justification, ourdeclaration in the law court of
God, um, our being innocent, ourvindication uh through the death
and resurrection of Christ andascension.
(15:08):
And uh the second half of Romans3 goes on to say, Is God the God
of the Jews only?
No, he's the God of theGentiles.
So you can see there the peopleof God emphasis coming through.
I mean, that's just one aspectof the new perspective.
SPEAKER_01 (15:22):
Now, I'm sure I knew this, but I hadn't put it
together quite as pithily aswell, I hadn't in any way, in
compared to the way you havehere.
But just the number of termsthat you have used in Romans to
be saved is to be justified,forgiven, counted as righteous,
redeemed, set free, adopted intoGod's family, reconciled, united
(15:43):
to Christ, made holy, giveneternal life, granted honor and
glory.
Isn't that beautiful?
It is beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
So that that's what I would say to uh um our the
ministers listening and to theevangelists.
There's nothing wrong withtalking about salvation as
justification, but you can alsotalk about it as redemption,
reconciliation, liberation.
So that the Paul's gospel is umit covers the whole Christian
(16:09):
life as well as the entry intothe Christian life.
And uh hence, uh just harkingback to my title, um, having the
gospel applied to our livesstrengthens us to live um in
lives that please God.
Now you can see that just oneexample.
So um uh Romans 14 and 15,you've got disputable matters,
and Paul's approach to suchthings is is not to despise or
(16:32):
judge other believers.
And how does he get there?
Well, he appeals to the Lordshipof Christ, the kingdom of God,
the ongoing mission of thechurch, all of these, uh the
example of Christ, death on thecross.
So all of those things aregospel truths.
So gospel truths is the way towork out how to live.
SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
The word faith, used by Paul 140 times, um, but quite
a lot of those times in Romans,and um uh does faith not only
include belief and trust, butdoes it also include some form
of obedience and faithfulness?
SPEAKER_00 (17:09):
I I think um my my thumbnail definition of faith
would be belief plus trust plusaction.
It does issue in action, but itthat in no way undermines the
fact that uh salvation is agift.
So it's a reception, it's atrust, and it does lead to
action.
So so, in a sense, grace too.
(17:31):
Grace is this uh lavish,undeserved kindness and
generosity of God, but it doestransform us.
It doesn't just leave us withthe gift.
Don Carson used to say that inthe gospel, gift and demand go
together.
So I think um whether you attachthat demand to the notion of
faith or to grace or tosomething else, it it doesn't
(17:54):
really matter, but certainlyyou've you've got to make clear
in preaching the gospel thatwe're to count the cost and to
follow Christ.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
Now I want to push into the eye in Romans 7.
Okay.
Um you were you were prettybrief on page 150 on this, um,
but you said you agreed withWill Timmys.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
Um tell us about Will Timmys and his article and
Well Will Will's got a wholebook with Cambridge University
Press, his doctorate with myfriend Peter Head.
So so basically, um Romans 7, aslisteners probably know, there's
dispute over who is the I.
So Paul says I put it in thepresent tense.
So it sounds like he's talkingabout his present experience,
(18:36):
but other people have said wellnow we will have some people who
are not ministers listening.
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
So just um give us a couple of lines.
SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
Yeah, so um um I the the thing I want to do, I cannot
do, and I'm sold under sin, thatthat kind of thing.
Really quite negative,disturbing things.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
And I'm looking at my life and feeling unhappy
about my life.
SPEAKER_00 (18:56):
I I yeah, I think um so the trick with my sin, yeah.
Yes, but it the the way tounderstand the eye there is to
read it in context, whichshouldn't surprise you.
So the context is very helpfulwhen you're reading in the light
of Romans 6 and in the light ofRomans 8.
So you especially you shouldn'tread Romans 7 without Romans 8.
(19:18):
So even if you say this is Paultalking about his pre-Christian
existence, Romans 8, Galatians5, Ephesians 6 has conflict in
the Christian life.
There's still struggle andwarfare.
But I think Romans 7 is talkingin really bleak terms about our
fleshly existence, which isongoing, um, and the fact that
(19:41):
we are tempted to sin, andsometimes we can feel as if
we're in bondage to sin.
But the good news of the gospelin Romans 6 is that we are
released from the mastery ofsin, and we ought not to let sin
reign in our mortal bodies.
And then in Romans 8, you've gotto read that as a complement to
Romans 7, which shows us thatthe Spirit's work, as the
Spirit's not mentioned in Romans7, the Spirit's work in our
(20:03):
lives can give us confidence anduh uh make us more optimistic
about the future.
So it's a lovely balance betweenour status, which gives us the
grounds to combat sin in ourlives, but a realistic appraisal
of just how difficult ourfleshly existence is and how
prone we are to sin.
SPEAKER_01 (20:25):
And Will Timmys persuaded Tom Shriner to change
his mind on who the I was inRomans 7.
Yep.
And Tom Shriner, co-author withyou or of you of this series,
and giant in New Testamentscholarship.
Yeah, I mean, it did feel adecade ago like anyone who said
(20:49):
that the I was me and my currentChristian life was kind of
blinkered, not listening toscholarship, um, just running on
prejudice.
Yep.
But now we have threeheavyweights at least.
We'll just well, I'm not aheavyweight, but you, Tom
Schreiner, Will Timmins, allsaying it's me.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
Yeah.
Um, look, it's one of thoseexegetical problems that I
wouldn't go to the stake for.
So if you I I say to this tostudents sometimes, uh, if you
put a gun to my head and said,Brian, what who do you think uh
the I is in Romans 7?
I'd say, what do you think?
So so so basically I don't thinkproperly understood there's an
(21:34):
enormous amount at stake.
Because you both views haveconflict in the Christian life.
SPEAKER_01 (21:39):
And you do you do expect conflict in the Christian
life, even if you take the otherview of Romans.
Correct.
Yeah.
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So because then it's between theflesh and the spirit, which
which is where we arrive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now Will Timmins, I mean, it'sit's a very technical
discussion, but it's worthreading.
There is, I think, a GospelCoalition article if people
wanted to have a look, where hekind of lays it out in um um
kind of um his CUP monograph fordummies.
SPEAKER_01 (22:07):
Now, because I'm not paying Which I was happy to
read.
But because I'm not payingattention in detail to this, um
where's the discussion up to inthe wider field of New Testament
scholarship?
SPEAKER_00 (22:18):
Um it it's still all over the place.
Yeah.
There's there's still discussionof these matters ongoing.
So it's not even amongevangelicals.
So I think this this is thedisputed matter of
interpretation that will will beongoing.
But but my concern is, as I'vealready said several times, that
we maintain the dual emphasis ofour precarious fleshly
(22:43):
existence, prone to evil.
Um, I mean, the Lord JesusHimself said to his disciples,
you being evil.
So we we have that propensity,but also the confidence and uh
outlook which says we have a newstatus, we have new resources,
and by God's grace.
With his help, we can, as Paulsays in Romans 6, um, not allow
(23:04):
sin to reign in our mortalbodies.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Does pistus christou refer to faith in Jesus Christ
or the faithfulness of JesusChrist?
SPEAKER_00 (23:13):
Okay, so pistus Christu literally is faith of
Christ.
Yep.
And as you know, and in Romansthree, Paul says that we're
justified by pistus Christus, byfaith of Jesus Christ.
Now it could mean faith in JesusChrist, or it could mean we're
justified by the faithfulness ofJesus Christ.
(23:34):
And there's a couple of reasonspeople prefer the latter.
They look in Romans 3 and theysay, well, Paul's already said
several times that we'rejustified by faith.
So he must be saying somethingdifferent here.
And then you get usage isanother big category in
scholarship in interpretation,and you get um a little phrase,
the uh faith of Abraham.
(23:56):
And clearly that's not faith inAbraham, that's Abraham's faith.
So people say, look, uh Paul'ssaying we're justified by
Christ's faithfulness.
Okay, stepping back, um, I Ithink um one way to say it would
be one person's redundancy,which is what people are saying
it would be redundant to repeatfaith in Christ, is another
(24:17):
person's emphasis.
I just think Paul's uh reallyunderscoring that the means of
salvation we're saved by gracethrough faith and trust.
Yep.
But again, it's true to say,theologically, it's true, that
Jesus' faithfulness andobedience is fundamental to our
(24:38):
salvation.
Romans 5 says that.
Talks about the the obedience ofChrist being so important in the
plan of salvation.
Philippians 2 talks about him insimilar terms.
It doesn't use the termfaithfulness, but um um concepts
are bigger than terms.
It it is a synonym for whatwe're talking about here.
So faith in Christ.
(24:59):
I think it's faith in Christ,yeah.
But again, I wouldn't go to thestake.
I know we want you to go to thestake on this one.
SPEAKER_01 (25:05):
Okay.
What about the law in Romans?
What's going on there?
SPEAKER_00 (25:10):
Oh, um much in every way.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
So the law condemns Well wisdom and prophecy or I
think we get a bit of each.
SPEAKER_00 (25:19):
And yeah, you're um alluding to my book on Paul and
the law, and it works forRomans, I think.
So basically, you've got veryclearly that we're not under the
law as a legal code.
Yep.
And that's in Romans 2, and thenwe're not under the law, Romans
6 says that as well.
Uh, does that mean the law is ofno use to us?
Well, clearly not, because Paulsays in Romans 3.21 that the law
(25:44):
and the prophets testify uh tothe righteousness of God in the
gospel.
So the law has a propheticfunction.
Yep.
And you see that, uh, law andthe prophets, for that matter.
You see that in chapter four.
So Paul quotes the law, Abraham,Genesis 15, 6.
Uh Abraham believed God and itwas credited to him as
righteousness.
And he also quotes uh Psalm 32from David and the prophets.
(26:07):
But then I think once you get tothe second half of the letter
and there's more talk aboutconduct, you can also see the
law playing a role as wisdom.
And people get nervous when theyhear that.
They think, oh, I don't have toobey the law.
No, it's not like that at all.
So it let's think of the law notto murder.
That most of us are going to getthrough life without murdering
(26:29):
pretty happily.
Yep.
But the way you're so far sogood.
The way you apply that, and theway Paul applies it, and Jesus
for that matter, is to say,well, actually, the law against
murder, we should uh takeinternalize that and have an
expansive application, meaningthat we shouldn't be um overly
angry with a brother or sister,we shouldn't slander them, and
(26:51):
on the other side, we should actin love.
So I think the law is part ofGod's word, inspired, helpful
for our instruction andtraining, but we're not under,
thankfully, the condemnation ofthe law uh because we don't um
obey it completely.
SPEAKER_01 (27:08):
Now, Israel, um Romans 9 to 11.
Uh, I mean Israel very sensitiveat the moment, but um uh we'll
take it.
I'm from a Jewish background, sogood.
Yeah, yep.
Well, what did it do for you asyou were working on these these
chapters?
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Uh yeah, look, it's um there are two crux texts on
uh the relationship of Israel tothe church.
Uh Roman, the end of Romans 11,Paul has that little phrase,
thus the the Redeemer, um, no,the deliverer will come from
Zion, and thus all Israel willbe saved.
And you've got to ask, what'sthe referent of Israel?
(27:46):
Who who is Israel there?
And uh I'm of the view thatIsrael is still ethnic Israel.
So I don't think Paul'sreferences to Israel, the other
one's um Galatians 6, 16, Ithink it is, where he talks
about uh peace be upon uh theIsrael of God.
So I think there's some sense,as Romans 9 to 11 says, the
(28:07):
gifts and calling of God areirrevocable, and the word of God
has not failed.
So the promises to ethnic Israelare such that God will be
faithful to his historic people.
Now, what does that mean?
This is where it gets a bitfuzzy, but clearly at the end of
Romans 11, he seems to thinkthat at the end time, somehow,
(28:29):
all Israel, which I think is atechnical term for a remnant of
Israel, will believe in theJewish Messiah.
Um, how that relates to theMiddle East, um, we're not gonna
go there.
Um, I I think the Middle Eastshould be treated as a separate
topic.
Um, uh as citizens in ourcountries, we should think and
(28:49):
talk about the crises in theMiddle East apart from those um
biblical promises.
Um that's basically where whereI land.
SPEAKER_01 (29:00):
So, Brian, I just want to say thank you so much
for what you've done here.
Um, I have found it good for me,both in terms of my knowledge,
but also for my pastor's heartreading it.
I'm I'm looking forward to goingover it in more detail in my
personal Bible reading over thenext few weeks, and I'm looking
forward to having it as acompanion when I next come to
(29:20):
teach on Romans.
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
Thanks, Dominic.
It's actually part of a20-volume series that Tom and I
edit.
So it's kind of we cover thewhole New Testament, just giving
preachers and people in seminaryand college classes a little
overview of a little overviewintroduction.
SPEAKER_01 (29:34):
And I could see, I mean, I've gone through in the
pulpit Romans twice, and uh Ithought, oh, if I'd had this
before I'd done either of thoseones, it would have been better.
And so I'll definitely have itas a companion for my next
preaching journey.
It's very kind of encouraging.
Thanks, Dominic.
I mean, and uh I mean, must havedone you good doing the work.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Oh, it's a great privilege.
I mean, Romans is is magnificentand it's it's very humbling, and
as we started out by saying, itdoes lead you to sit back and uh
be awestruck uh in the uh uhpresence of our gracious and
great God.
unknown (30:12):
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
Brian Rosn has been my guest.
He's from Ridley College inMelbourne.
My name's Dominic Steele.
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and the book is
Strengthened by the Gospel, atheology of Romans.
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