What does the reordering of the Anglican Communion actually mean for Christians in the Australian Church?
Archbishop of Sydney Kanishka Raffel on what it means for Anglican churches, clergy and church members in Australia.
We explore what ‘principled disengagement’ from the Canterbury Instruments will mean for Australian leaders and other Global Anglican Communion leaders.
Plus an update on implementing the Sydney Diocean goal of seeing five percent saved through conversion growth each year.
And Archbishop Raffel responds to criticism over his comments on Pauline Hanson, ‘We must reject hateful words and threats of violence.’
Gafcon Communique:
https://gafcon.org/communique-updates/the-abuja-affirmation/
A short clip to show in church where Archbishop Raffel outlines the significance of the reordering for members of Australian Anglican Churches:
https://vimeo.com/1174575894?share=copy&fl=sv&fe=ci
Archbishop Raffel news release on Pauline Hanson: ‘We must reject hateful words and threats of violence’:
https://sydneyanglicans.net/mediareleases/we-must-reject-hateful-words-and-threats-of-violence
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SPEAKER_00 (00:30):
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SPEAKER_03 (00:34):
I studied the diploma in theology at Window
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Thank you so much.
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Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
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you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
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SPEAKER_03 (01:08):
What does the Global Anglican Communion mean for
Australia?
Our guest, the Archbishop ofSydney, Kanishka Rafel.
It is the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele, and it's 10days now since the big statement
was released in Abuja, Nigeria,that has outlined the resetting
of the Anglican Communion.
The Abuja Affirmation Communiquesays a communion founded on the
(01:32):
person and work of Jesus Christ,the authority of his word, and
his commission to make disciplesof all nations.
Kanishka Rafel, thanks forcoming in.
I'll ask your pastor's heart ina moment on all of this.
But uh a pastor messaged me andsaid, could we create a short
primer that he could have forhis congregation to explain
(01:55):
what's happened in Abuja and thesignificance for them?
Now he's asking me, not you, butum, but I thought, well, what
would you say to the averageChristian, average Anglican in a
Bible church in Australia aboutthe significance for them of
what's happened these last 10days?
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Sure.
Yeah, thanks, Dominic.
It's good to be here.
Um, I think what I'd want theaverage Sydney Anglican to uh um
uh draw from this is really agreat encouragement.
I'd like them to be encouragedthat across the globe uh the
Anglican church is standing onthe gospel, on the Bible, and
pursuing the mission that Jesusleft us.
(02:35):
And that might uh uh I I I don'tconsider that a small thing.
Um I think uh often the sort ofmedia portrayal, uh especially
perhaps of the Anglican Church,both here in Australia and
across the globe, is one ofconfusion, uh, of uh uh
diversion into um uh activitiesand uh ways of thinking and
(02:56):
being, which seem to have verylittle connection with our life
here in Sydney as Anglicans.
But in actual fact, theleadership of the global
Anglican Church and theexperience and commitments of
most Anglicans around the worlduh are exactly the things that
we hold to be precious.
Uh our Reformation heritage uhof uh um uh the Bible alone, uh
(03:21):
faith in Christ alone, um uh thecommitment to the Great
Commission and making disciples,uh, and the trustworthiness, the
primacy and the sufficiency ofGod's word.
So we are part of a globalfellowship committed to serving
Jesus, proclaiming his word, anduh calling on those around us to
(03:41):
put their faith in him.
And I think that's anencouraging thing.
SPEAKER_03 (03:44):
And I suppose there's a formalization now that
the leadership is actuallysaying that true too.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
Yes, I think uh the statement makes the point that
for um perhaps nearly thirtyyears at least, uh the global
Anglican Church has beenconfronting issues of doctrinal
um uh deviation uh and confusionover uh ethics, especially
sexual ethics, and there's beena kind of uh a kind of lostness
(04:16):
about that, where God speaksclearly and entrusts to his
people um his word of truth.
And so there's really areorganization uh where very
impressive, courageous, joyfulleaders around the world are
saying, we're not gonna umparticipate in these structures
(04:37):
which have done so poorly atdefending and promoting the
gospel.
We've got work to do left to usfrom the Lord, um and we need to
get on with doing it.
SPEAKER_03 (04:49):
So let's just talk past his heart for a moment.
Sure.
Um if I was to go back to theKigali conference three years
ago, it felt like the whole moodwas I've had to nerve myself up
to have a very difficultconversation with my parents.
Do you know about rebuking themfor I mean rebuking the Church
(05:10):
of England for um itsleadership's journey into
apostasy, the bishops of theChurch of England.
SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (05:18):
Um, and yet the mood in Abuja last fortnight was
totally different.
It was let's get on with ourjoyful proclamation of Christ.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
Uh I think um my pastor's heartuh is one of deep, uh, deep
encouragement, really of a greatsense of humility.
I think when you meet uhAnglican leaders um from around
the world in a context likethat, uh you find people who are
(05:48):
impressively faithful andcourageous in serving Jesus.
Uh 24 provinces of the AnglicanCommunion were represented, uh,
or maybe 27, um, uh more thanhalf.
And uh in many of those places,uh there is tremendous
opposition to the gospel in thewider culture.
(06:11):
Less so we're more used to itinside the church.
Uh, but they're proclaiming thegospel in contexts of poverty,
of being in many cases aminority religion, in many cases
where government is corrupt, inmany cases where there is
violent religious extremismopposing them.
And uh you see people who are uhfaithful, joyful, courageous in
(06:36):
trusting God and pursuing hismission.
And really, um I I find that souh uh heart-strengthening, um,
so uh deeply encouraging.
Uh and actually it makes me feelproud to be an Anglican.
SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
Um I noticed some reporting in the British media,
particularly, that said you'vetaken this statement, this Abuja
declarate affirmation statement,because the new Archbishop of
Canterbury, Sarah Maleli, is awoman.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Yeah, thanks, Dominique.
I mean, it would be true to saythat in many provinces of the
Anglican communion, uh, and herein our own diocese, we're
persuaded that the teaching ofthe Bible is that the roles of
overseer and presbyter arereserved for them, and that we
would expect a male episcopacy.
Um however, I I think it's alsofair to say that that just
(07:31):
didn't feature in ourdiscussions at in Abuja.
I certainly don't rememberanyone from the platform making
mention of that, or even in theprivate conversation, certainly,
that I had.
Uh, the issues that we had withthe Archbishop of Canterbury um
extend far beyond the newincumbent.
Um all of these problems existedat least 25 years ago and have
(07:55):
been being addressed by OrthodoxAnglican leaders with the
incumbent of the office ofArchbishop of Canterbury.
Um so uh although I think thereis an issue there, uh that that
was not the issue thatprecipitated the meeting or its
outcome.
SPEAKER_03 (08:12):
The uh online critiques have said that the
language of resetting thecommunion or resetting
Anglicanism overstates whatAbuja can actually do.
Um what do you think the Abujamovement has the authority to
do?
And yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Uh well, I think you've got to see Abuja on a um
timeline.
Uh so uh the first meeting ofGAFCON in 2008, uh, which
coincided with the Lambethconference that was called at
the same time, was a verydefinite and courageous break uh
saying we we we don't feel thatwe are bound to accept um this
(08:56):
way of being Anglican.
Uh and um uh you know we're now20, well no, no, not 20, not
quite 20 years later, the thethe GAFCON conference in 2028
will be.
I mean you were there at thismeeting in 2018.
I wasn't I was I was serving inPerth at the time.
Um but I was there in 2008.
And uh the the real um one ofthe tremendous outcomes of that
(09:18):
meeting, apart from theJerusalem Declaration, which has
really become uh thecontemporary expression of uh
Anglican commitment to ourbiblical and historical
heritage, uh the Reformationheritage, uh the Jerusalem
Declaration, a contemporaryexpression of that commitment.
Um uh one of the main things tocome out, apart from the
(09:40):
Jerusalem Declaration, was theformation of the Anglican Church
of North America, which wascalled for by the primates.
And at the time, there were over750 clergy who had been deposed,
defrocked uh by the EpiscopalChurch uh in the United States
for holding to um orthodoxbiblical doctrine and faith.
And so uh um the uh GAFCOMprimates who called for the
(10:06):
creation of this OrthodoxAnglican uh church in America.
Um and it's true to say that uhCanterbury has continued not to
recognize those people.
It's it's it's it'sbreathtaking.
It is breathtaking.
It's breathtakingly arrogant.
Uh and so, you know, um uh but Ithink what the Abuja says is
(10:30):
legitimacy proceeds fromconformity to biblical doctrine.
The basis of our fellowship isunion with Christ as we know
him, through the scriptures,through his own word, and in the
Anglican context, as we'veexpressed in our Reformation
formularies.
And so what Abuja is saying isthat legitimacy as an Anglican
(10:54):
doesn't depend primarily on ahistorical or institutional
structure, but on theologicaland biblical commitments, which
we share um with uh uh withAnglicans around the world.
SPEAKER_03 (11:36):
Which actually makes relational sense that as I get
to know you and get to umexperience your commitment to
Christ, I find myself trustingyou and um wanting to stand and
fight alongside you more.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
Yeah our fellowship is in Christ.
Uh we we meet from across theglobe, and as we speak about the
Lord together, we discover it'sthe same one.
SPEAKER_03 (12:03):
What does it mean to say there are two incompatible
definitions of communion?
SPEAKER_02 (12:09):
Uh so the um uh the communion structures that are
oriented around Canterbury uhhave um developed uh over uh not
a very long time, um uh thesefour instruments of communion.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Uh quite recent we were discovering.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yeah, well, the uh some of them are basically came
into existence in the 70s.
Uh the the the uh I think it'sthe Primates Meeting and uh the
Anglican Consultative Council.
Uh not 100% sure of that.
The Lambeth Conference is uhmid-1800s, um the Archbishop of
Canterbury, those are the four.
And uh so even the LambethConference itself is only about
(12:48):
150, 170 years old.
SPEAKER_03 (12:51):
So it's not as though these things are these
things are not this way.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Exactly, indeed.
Precisely.
They're they're not uhparticularly um longstanding in
terms of the history of theAnglican Church.
Uh and uh they have all beenoriented around the person of
the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Now, what uh what the Bible andour own formularies tell us is
that the bishop, above all, mustbe a guardian of the faith.
(13:19):
And so what we've seen is thefailure of successive
archbishops of Canterbury to dothat.
And the authority of a bishop,of any bishop, is entirely
derivative uh of his consistencywith the scriptures.
Um so that having beendemonstrated now through
successive archbishops ofCanterbury, it is entirely
(13:42):
Anglican to say um thatsituation, that that position
has no uh it does not haveauthority.
SPEAKER_03 (13:49):
I mean, you're saying this to me now.
You've actually said it to hisface, to Justin Welby's face.
Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
SPEAKER_02 (13:54):
I I I certainly did speak to uh Justin Welby on a
number of occasions and madevery clear um the concerns that
Sydney Anglicans have about thedirection in which the Church of
England was going, uh uh underhis leadership and with his with
his support.
I have to talk to him aboutthat, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (14:12):
The statement says sexuality is only symptomatic of
this deeper crisis.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Yes.
The deeper crisis is what is theplace of the Bible, and the
articles of religion, thethirty-night articles, uh give a
very clear picture of theauthority of Scripture in uh
matters of doctrine and faith.
And uh what we've seen is thatum in relation to uh the uh the
(14:42):
tenets of the faith, uh theatonement of the cross, the
resurrection of the body, um thereturn and judgment of Jesus, as
well as these ethical matters uhto do with sexuality and
marriage and so on, um, that uhincreasingly there are uh whole
provinces of the AnglicanChurch.
Uh I mean, uh God preserves hisremnant in every place, but uh
(15:04):
there are uh whole provincesthat actually have abandoned
these kinds of principles.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Now, um I mean at one level it's reasonably easy
to speak of whole provinces overthere or Archbishop of
Canterbury over there, but we'veactually got problems in the
Australian churches.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Yes, absolutely we do.
We're very deeply divided aboutvery important things.
Uh so um fellowship in theAustralian Anglican Church has
been very strained for sometime.
SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
Now, it's the Australian Bishops meeting this
week.
You're not able to be there, butwere you there, what would you
be?
I mean, we asked you what you'dsay to the average Sydney
Anglican Pew member, what wouldyou be saying to the bishops of
the Australian Church?
Um I guess some of them are withyou, some of them are completely
opposite end of the spectrum,and some of them are in the
(15:50):
middle.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Yes.
Well, I I'd be saying to themthe same things that I had been
saying for the last uh as longas I've been archbishop.
Um, and uh they they may thinkof it as rather tedious and
repetitive, but uh I feel likeum the real reason for going.
Given the um very broken stateof our fellowship, I think it's
important at those kinds ofbishops' meetings to say, um,
(16:11):
look, uh we're not here talkingabout matters upon which
Christians in good consciencecan agree to differ.
And I think that was one of thereal failings of the last
Lambeth conference, uh, whenArchbishop Welby affirmed two
different views of the Bible'steaching on sexuality and
marriage, and said that theycould both, they could coexist
(16:33):
in some way.
Uh and uh um the scripturesdon't lead us to believe that
that is true.
There are things about whichChristians can, in good
conscience, agree to differ.
Uh, but there are other thingsuh which we might say are issues
of first importance, upon which,if you have a different view,
then you've walked away from thegospel.
(16:54):
And the scriptures don't tell usthat we should walk together
with error.
Um, we should be united in thetruth of God's word.
That's the point of Jesus'prayer in John 17, the prayer
for unity, unity in the word oftruth that comes from God.
The scriptures don't tell us towalk together with sin, but to
(17:15):
keep in step with the spirit andput to death death the works of
the flesh.
Um uh the uh the the scripturesuh encourage us to separate from
those uh from darkness, fromthose who teach falsehood uh and
not to walk together with them.
And I should say, yeah and tocall on people to repent.
(17:38):
And so um that certainly hasbeen the kind of conversation
that we've been having in thebishops' uh meetings over
several years is that these areAnd they get tense?
They get very tense, yes.
Right.
Cordial.
I think they always remaincordial.
But of course, these are noteasy things to discuss.
SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
Um Principal disengagement is one of the
words that's come out of theAbuja affirmation.
Um and what does it mean toprincipally disengage for you as
Archbishop of Sydney, for theDiocese of Sydney in the
Australian church context?
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
Aaron Powell So the Abuja statement, uh the Abuja
affirmation, uh talking aboutthe leadership of the Global
Anglican Council, this newstructure that has replaced the
GAFCON Primates Council, a widerstructure, one that includes uh
and which you sit on.
And which I sit on, yes, that'strue.
Uh um it says that in order tobe part of that leadership,
(18:35):
there has to be a repudiation uhof the um so-called instruments
of communion.
Uh now, for Sydney Anglicans,um, this is really uh an
unremarkable thing because theDiocese of Sydney made the
decision in the 1990s uh becausethese issues have been very
long-standing.
(18:55):
Um in the 1990s, uh we withdrew,for example, from financial
support for the AnglicanCommunion Office in in
Canterbury.
Uh Harry Goodhue chaired theworking group on human sexuality
at the 1998 Lambeth Conference,the working group that produced
Resolution 110.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
I mean, I only I can't remember when I learnt
that, but what I thought, ohwow, what a hero.
Yeah, indeed.
Harry Goodhue, former Archbishopof Sydney.
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
Indeed, indeed.
And I should say that the theGlobal South had published a
statement, uh the Kuala Lumpusstatement in 1997.
So they had already done quite alot of thinking about this and
brought that to the LambethConference, but Harry was the
chair at that time.
Since then, uh Sydney has notattended a Lambeth conference.
SPEAKER_03 (19:41):
So that's the that's they've already principally
disengaged.
SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
Yes, and Sydney has not held the primacy.
Um we uh the Archbishop ofSydney has not been elected to
the position of primate uh sincethe uh uh uh retirement of Sir
Marcus Lone.
SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
Um do you think it would mean we that the
Archbishop of Sydney couldn't bethe primate if they were to
principally if if they were toin principle principle
disengage?
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
Not now.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
Not now.
Um that is to say, of coursethey could be the primate.
Of course they could be theprimate.
Uh but if as primate they wouldhave to um not go to the
primates meeting, for example.
SPEAKER_03 (20:17):
Right.
Okay, yeah.
Um and uh Which I guess thePrimate would be able to do to
not go to the Primates.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yes, of course.
And in fact, that's exactly whatthe GAFCON primates have done in
recent years.
They've not gone not attended,they've principally disengaged.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So from our point of view, itdoesn't make a lot of difference
because we've already made thosedistinctions.
Uh in the 30s, our forebearsmade those decisions on
principle to express brokenfellowship in these kinds of
(20:42):
ways.
But uh there was an openness andin fact a decision to um embrace
a conciliar structure ratherthan simply mimic the very
structures that uh have beenrepudiated.
SPEAKER_03 (20:56):
I thought it sounded kind of grown up and modern and
the right thing for this age,all those kind of things.
Yeah.
But um, I've noticed some of theAnglo-Catholics in America are
pushing back on it.
Yeah.
And um, and one of the lines Ipicked up from the commentator
George Conger was that um theecclesiology adopted by the
Global Global Anglican Communionuh and the Global Anglican
(21:18):
Council is the ecclesiology ofSydney, Australia, Low Church.
So he described it as a win forSydney.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Is that uh well, I don't think I'd put it that way
myself.
Um I I think it's thoroughlyAnglican.
So um if you look at the uh uhordinal, for example, the
consecration vows and promisesthat are made by a bishop, um,
they are in many cases they arealmost exactly the same as those
made by the presbyter or thepriest uh at um his ordination,
(21:48):
uh, in relation especially tothe sufficiency of scripture, uh
studying scripture, teachingscripture, and banishing error.
Uh those promises are made bythe presbyter as well as by the
bishop or the overseer.
And so Cranmer is verydeliberately and carefully
reflecting that the NewTestament pattern regards the
(22:09):
overseer or the bishop and thepresbyter or the elder as
virtually identical roles.
And uh the biblical um basisfrom 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 uh
reflects exactly that uhcloseness between these two
roles.
So I think in Cranmer's mind,the bishop was a presbyter who
(22:32):
had been set aside for aministry of oversight.
But in the consecration service,um, you know, which is so
moving, the bishop is presentedwith what?
A Bible, uh not a crown, a mitreon his head, not a seal, not a
ring on his finger, not ascepter, uh a staff in his hand,
(22:54):
because he's not a monarch, he'snot a prince, um an Anglican
bishop.
uh is a pastor and a teacher, uha shepherd who is given a Bible
uh so that he can exerciseoversight.
And uh and um one of thedistinctives in the uh
consecration service is and carefor the for the presbyters uh
(23:15):
along with um ordaining, uhcorrecting and mercy.
Those are the distinctives inthe ordinal.
But the heart of the promisesthat the bishop makes are the
same as that of the presbyter.
So the idea that the bishop is amonarch who exercises a
magisterium to me is foreignboth to scripture and to the
(23:38):
ordinal.
SPEAKER_03 (23:40):
I want to ask you on a different topic about this
plan to grow congregations byfive percent through conversion
growth.
And um this was the centralpoint of your presidential
address last synod and thecentral discussion of the first
two days of the synod and umpassed in the end without
dissent, but I haven't heardanything for five months about
(24:02):
it.
There's been crickets sincethen.
SPEAKER_02 (24:05):
Okay, sure.
Uh well um uh I can tell you oneof the things that I've been
very encouraged about is uh as Ipray for the rectors uh and they
share with me prayer points anumber of rectors have told me
uh that their uh leadershipteams are working through what
the five percent is going tomean um in their context so uh
for those who aren't aware uhthe synod invited all the
(24:25):
churches to prayerfully uh seekGod's work to bring um five
percent growth by conversion ineach year of the next five years
this is a response to thegrowing unbelief in Australia
the last census more than halfof Australians said they had no
religion uh and uh even thoughjust under half say they
(24:48):
identify as Christians we knowthat nothing like that are
engaged in regular worship orservice of the Lord Jesus um and
so there's a tremendous urgencyfor this mission and so I'm
delighted actually to see thatat the local level uh churches
parish councils ministry teamsare engaging and congregations
(25:09):
are engaging with this questionwhat does it mean in our context
to prayerfully seek this kind ofgoal and it's interesting how
that number just produces alittle mini crisis right what
are we going to do what wouldhave to change um are we being
prayerful for our unsavedfriends and neighbors are we
making connections with peoplewho don't know Jesus uh have we
(25:30):
got a um uh uh a way of sharingwhat it means to be a follower
of Jesus uh that people canunderstand and that is
attractive and that they want toengage with do we have a sense
of the peril in which peoplewithout Christ are currently
living um uh have we gotsomething to say to a community
(25:51):
that in many ways is anxious andlost and um uh lonely uh how can
we see the gospel make progressand so at local churches at the
area of mission areas uh localAnglican churches thinking and
praying um and being accountableto one another uh last year's
synod also passed a resolutionasking the rectors at mission
(26:15):
areas to share their evangelismplan um so that there can be
mutual encouragement mutuallearning uh and collaboration in
this work and the standingcommittee and the kind of uh
oversight uh organizations arealso engaged with this uh and uh
as as you know um we'll we'll bediscussing it later this month
(26:36):
so something is happening yesyes there are I think there are
many things happening yes rightokay um now what about
suggesting other Anglican I meanother Anglican dioceses have you
had conversations with them umother GAFCON provinces about
adopting the same kind of minicrisis discussion I I have not
perhaps I should I'll note thesuggestion one of the things
(27:00):
next topic one of the thingsyou've stepped into by the way
when it comes to the provincesum uh a a meeting like the one
we just had in Abuja just showsyou uh what courageous believing
prayerful evangelism looks likeyeah I mean because in a place
like Nigeria where uh you knowduring the week uh well in in in
(27:21):
2025 I think over 3,000 peoplewere murdered in Nigeria uh um
for their faith uh and yet theChurch of Nigeria who was such
marvelous hosts to us areabsolutely committed to the
multiplication not just ofchurches uh and believers but of
dioceses yes I I was reflectingon it it felt like the Church of
(27:43):
Nigeria doesn't need a fivepercent growth target they've
got a five percent diocesenumber of increases yes yes
indeed yeah it was um it wasreally quite extraordinary
inspiring yeah um one of thethings you've stepped into
recently is the debate aboutPauline Hansen and Islam and
free speech and uh you issued astatement saying we must reject
(28:03):
hateful words and threats ofviolence.
SPEAKER_03 (28:06):
There's been varied reactions some have thanked you
for speaking clearly others haveargued that you overstated
Hanson's remarks.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
Yeah thanks Dominic I'm aware that there's
discussion about this and uh youknow not just in in our context
I don't think I overstatedSenator Hanson's words.
I think uh she's a prominentpolitical figure and leader.
She has been for many years.
I think uh she was given theopportunity many times after the
initial remarks um simply to saythere are good Muslims and she
(28:37):
declined to do so on a on anumber of uh media occasions so
um I don't want to overstate herremarks but I think uh I I think
I had quite a reasonableunderstanding of what she said
that but I think more broadly uhI have made since um October 7th
2023 when uh that terrible umattack took place uh terrorist
(28:58):
attack by Hamas uh in Israelsince that time um those events
have undoubtedly impacted lifein Australia we understand this
and we're very familiar with theway in which that has unfolded
climaxing most tragically uh inthe terrorist attack on the
Jewish community in particularat Bondi uh in December last
(29:21):
year and over all of that time Ihave made I think uh uh uh I
think nine or ten publicstatements most of them opposing
uh anti-Semitism almost all ofthem opposing anti-Semitism over
that period there was there wereum threats made against a mosque
(29:42):
so I made a statement about thatand uh the most recent statement
that I've made um there were twothings happening there were the
statements made by SenatorHanson and at the same time
there was reporting that threeseparate um threatening letters
had been sent to a mosque inSydney.
And so I continued to make apublic statement opposing uh um
(30:09):
this kind of uh these threats ofviolence uh and um against
communities based on theirreligion and culture.
So that so that statement wasone of, as I say, uh nine or ten
statements that I've made overthat period of time, although
most of those statements were umopposing anti-Semitism.
(30:30):
Now I think Australia has been acountry in which people from
many cultures have been able tocome, who have made significant
contributions, who havepersonally, as indeed is the
case for my own family, who havebenefited from the freedom, the
safety, the stability, the peaceand the opportunity that
(30:51):
Australia provides.
I think that's something veryprecious and something that as
our national anthem says forthose who come across the seas
there's boundless planes toshare with heart and hand let's
all combine.
And that is the story of theEuropean settlement of
Australia.
(31:11):
It's a great story thegovernment is responsible for
managing immigration.
It's a very significantresponsibility it's a difficult
one.
There are lots of differentkinds of immigrants skilled
laborers, students, holidayworkers, refugees and asylum
seekers um it's a big job forthe government to handle uh and
(31:31):
um people are entitled toexpress their views about the
shape that that should take andthat's a proper discussion and
Senator Hanson is thoroughly umuh entitled to participate in
that discussion as well but butso are we and uh um uh from my
point of view as I said in thatstatement people come here from
(31:54):
all over the world with allkinds of cultures I said in my
statement Christians Jews andMuslims have serious differences
about the nature of God theperson of Jesus the way of
salvation and as Christians webelieve that Jesus is the only
and unique savior of the worldwe want to be able to share that
(32:14):
gospel with people of otherfaiths and no faiths and we'll
do it the way the scripture saysto do it with respect and
gentleness and with joy becausewe think it's such good news.
So um uh you know I I'm uh uhyeah well that's what I want to
(32:34):
say thanks very much for comingin my guest on The Pastor's
Heart Kanishka Raffle theArchbishop of Sydney next week
on the pastor's heart VaughnRoberts is going to be with us
uh actually I should just askyou about this Kanishka um he um
he's gonna be talking to usabout uh the book full of grace
and truth that um that he gaveout at the Abuja conference and
(32:56):
you've read it um uh anycomments on that um I think
Vaughan has uh served us sogenerously uh and so well in
expounding a biblical doctrineof marriage and human sexuality
uh and uh in this little uh umbooklet that he's produced which
(33:18):
I believe was based on theaddress he gave to the Lausanne
conference last year um hespells out in a way which is
very memorable uh very freshvery pastoral um the truth of
God's word about marriage andhuman sexuality uh in a way
which celebrates those thingswhich appreciates the good that
God has created in these giftsuh and the um imperative upon us
(33:43):
to receive them with gladnessand to uh pursue um our own uh
experience of humanity andsexuality in ways that honor and
please God.
SPEAKER_03 (33:52):
Thanks for coming in Kanishka Raffle the Archbishop
of Sydney my name's DominicSteele we'll catch you next
Tuesday afternoon with VaughanRoberts on the Pastor's Heart
I thank Anglican Aid for the sponsorship that you
gave me.
SPEAKER_03 (00:34):
I studied the diploma in theology at Window
Babel College.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
Reverend David is one of 2,000 pastors trained
with support from Anglican Aidin the last five years.
When you give to Anglican Aid'sGlobal Anglican Communion Fund,
you'll help resource the world'spoorest diocese to preach Christ
faithfully and care for peoplein need.
Visit anglicanaid.org.
SPEAKER_03 (01:08):
What does the Global Anglican Communion mean for
Australia?
Our guest, the Archbishop ofSydney, Kanishka Rafel.
It is the Pastor's Heart.
It's Dominic Steele, and it's 10days now since the big statement
was released in Abuja, Nigeria,that has outlined the resetting
of the Anglican Communion.
The Abuja Affirmation Communiquesays a communion founded on the
(01:32):
person and work of Jesus Christ,the authority of his word, and
his commission to make disciplesof all nations.
Kanishka Rafel, thanks forcoming in.
I'll ask your pastor's heart ina moment on all of this.
But uh a pastor messaged me andsaid, could we create a short
primer that he could have forhis congregation to explain
(01:55):
what's happened in Abuja and thesignificance for them?
Now he's asking me, not you, butum, but I thought, well, what
would you say to the averageChristian, average Anglican in a
Bible church in Australia aboutthe significance for them of
what's happened these last 10days?
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
Sure.
Yeah, thanks, Dominic.
It's good to be here.
Um, I think what I'd want theaverage Sydney Anglican to uh um
uh draw from this is really agreat encouragement.
I'd like them to be encouragedthat across the globe uh the
Anglican church is standing onthe gospel, on the Bible, and
pursuing the mission that Jesusleft us.
(02:35):
And that might uh uh I I I don'tconsider that a small thing.
Um I think uh often the sort ofmedia portrayal, uh especially
perhaps of the Anglican Church,both here in Australia and
across the globe, is one ofconfusion, uh, of uh uh
diversion into um uh activitiesand uh ways of thinking and
(02:56):
being, which seem to have verylittle connection with our life
here in Sydney as Anglicans.
But in actual fact, theleadership of the global
Anglican Church and theexperience and commitments of
most Anglicans around the worlduh are exactly the things that
we hold to be precious.
Uh our Reformation heritage uhof uh um uh the Bible alone, uh
(03:21):
faith in Christ alone, um uh thecommitment to the Great
Commission and making disciples,uh, and the trustworthiness, the
primacy and the sufficiency ofGod's word.
So we are part of a globalfellowship committed to serving
Jesus, proclaiming his word, anduh calling on those around us to
(03:41):
put their faith in him.
And I think that's anencouraging thing.
SPEAKER_03 (03:44):
And I suppose there's a formalization now that
the leadership is actuallysaying that true too.
SPEAKER_02 (03:51):
Yes, I think uh the statement makes the point that
for um perhaps nearly thirtyyears at least, uh the global
Anglican Church has beenconfronting issues of doctrinal
um uh deviation uh and confusionover uh ethics, especially
sexual ethics, and there's beena kind of uh a kind of lostness
(04:16):
about that, where God speaksclearly and entrusts to his
people um his word of truth.
And so there's really areorganization uh where very
impressive, courageous, joyfulleaders around the world are
saying, we're not gonna umparticipate in these structures
(04:37):
which have done so poorly atdefending and promoting the
gospel.
We've got work to do left to usfrom the Lord, um and we need to
get on with doing it.
SPEAKER_03 (04:49):
So let's just talk past his heart for a moment.
Sure.
Um if I was to go back to theKigali conference three years
ago, it felt like the whole moodwas I've had to nerve myself up
to have a very difficultconversation with my parents.
Do you know about rebuking themfor I mean rebuking the Church
(05:10):
of England for um itsleadership's journey into
apostasy, the bishops of theChurch of England.
SPEAKER_01 (05:17):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (05:18):
Um, and yet the mood in Abuja last fortnight was
totally different.
It was let's get on with ourjoyful proclamation of Christ.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
Uh I think um my pastor's heartuh is one of deep, uh, deep
encouragement, really of a greatsense of humility.
I think when you meet uhAnglican leaders um from around
the world in a context likethat, uh you find people who are
(05:48):
impressively faithful andcourageous in serving Jesus.
Uh 24 provinces of the AnglicanCommunion were represented, uh,
or maybe 27, um, uh more thanhalf.
And uh in many of those places,uh there is tremendous
opposition to the gospel in thewider culture.
(06:11):
Less so we're more used to itinside the church.
Uh, but they're proclaiming thegospel in contexts of poverty,
of being in many cases aminority religion, in many cases
where government is corrupt, inmany cases where there is
violent religious extremismopposing them.
And uh you see people who are uhfaithful, joyful, courageous in
(06:36):
trusting God and pursuing hismission.
And really, um I I find that souh uh heart-strengthening, um,
so uh deeply encouraging.
Uh and actually it makes me feelproud to be an Anglican.
SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
Um I noticed some reporting in the British media,
particularly, that said you'vetaken this statement, this Abuja
declarate affirmation statement,because the new Archbishop of
Canterbury, Sarah Maleli, is awoman.
SPEAKER_01 (07:09):
Yeah, thanks, Dominique.
I mean, it would be true to saythat in many provinces of the
Anglican communion, uh, and herein our own diocese, we're
persuaded that the teaching ofthe Bible is that the roles of
overseer and presbyter arereserved for them, and that we
would expect a male episcopacy.
Um however, I I think it's alsofair to say that that just
(07:31):
didn't feature in ourdiscussions at in Abuja.
I certainly don't rememberanyone from the platform making
mention of that, or even in theprivate conversation, certainly,
that I had.
Uh, the issues that we had withthe Archbishop of Canterbury um
extend far beyond the newincumbent.
Um all of these problems existedat least 25 years ago and have
(07:55):
been being addressed by OrthodoxAnglican leaders with the
incumbent of the office ofArchbishop of Canterbury.
Um so uh although I think thereis an issue there, uh that that
was not the issue thatprecipitated the meeting or its
outcome.
SPEAKER_03 (08:12):
The uh online critiques have said that the
language of resetting thecommunion or resetting
Anglicanism overstates whatAbuja can actually do.
Um what do you think the Abujamovement has the authority to
do?
And yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (08:32):
Uh well, I think you've got to see Abuja on a um
timeline.
Uh so uh the first meeting ofGAFCON in 2008, uh, which
coincided with the Lambethconference that was called at
the same time, was a verydefinite and courageous break uh
saying we we we don't feel thatwe are bound to accept um this
(08:56):
way of being Anglican.
Uh and um uh you know we're now20, well no, no, not 20, not
quite 20 years later, the thethe GAFCON conference in 2028
will be.
I mean you were there at thismeeting in 2018.
I wasn't I was I was serving inPerth at the time.
Um but I was there in 2008.
And uh the the real um one ofthe tremendous outcomes of that
(09:18):
meeting, apart from theJerusalem Declaration, which has
really become uh thecontemporary expression of uh
Anglican commitment to ourbiblical and historical
heritage, uh the Reformationheritage, uh the Jerusalem
Declaration, a contemporaryexpression of that commitment.
Um uh one of the main things tocome out, apart from the
(09:40):
Jerusalem Declaration, was theformation of the Anglican Church
of North America, which wascalled for by the primates.
And at the time, there were over750 clergy who had been deposed,
defrocked uh by the EpiscopalChurch uh in the United States
for holding to um orthodoxbiblical doctrine and faith.
And so uh um the uh GAFCOMprimates who called for the
(10:06):
creation of this OrthodoxAnglican uh church in America.
Um and it's true to say that uhCanterbury has continued not to
recognize those people.
It's it's it's it'sbreathtaking.
It is breathtaking.
It's breathtakingly arrogant.
Uh and so, you know, um uh but Ithink what the Abuja says is
(10:30):
legitimacy proceeds fromconformity to biblical doctrine.
The basis of our fellowship isunion with Christ as we know
him, through the scriptures,through his own word, and in the
Anglican context, as we'veexpressed in our Reformation
formularies.
And so what Abuja is saying isthat legitimacy as an Anglican
(10:54):
doesn't depend primarily on ahistorical or institutional
structure, but on theologicaland biblical commitments, which
we share um with uh uh withAnglicans around the world.
SPEAKER_03 (11:36):
Which actually makes relational sense that as I get
to know you and get to umexperience your commitment to
Christ, I find myself trustingyou and um wanting to stand and
fight alongside you more.
SPEAKER_02 (11:52):
Yeah our fellowship is in Christ.
Uh we we meet from across theglobe, and as we speak about the
Lord together, we discover it'sthe same one.
SPEAKER_03 (12:03):
What does it mean to say there are two incompatible
definitions of communion?
SPEAKER_02 (12:09):
Uh so the um uh the communion structures that are
oriented around Canterbury uhhave um developed uh over uh not
a very long time, um uh thesefour instruments of communion.
SPEAKER_03 (12:24):
Uh quite recent we were discovering.
SPEAKER_02 (12:26):
Yeah, well, the uh some of them are basically came
into existence in the 70s.
Uh the the the uh I think it'sthe Primates Meeting and uh the
Anglican Consultative Council.
Uh not 100% sure of that.
The Lambeth Conference is uhmid-1800s, um the Archbishop of
Canterbury, those are the four.
And uh so even the LambethConference itself is only about
(12:48):
150, 170 years old.
SPEAKER_03 (12:51):
So it's not as though these things are these
things are not this way.
SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Exactly, indeed.
Precisely.
They're they're not uhparticularly um longstanding in
terms of the history of theAnglican Church.
Uh and uh they have all beenoriented around the person of
the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Now, what uh what the Bible andour own formularies tell us is
that the bishop, above all, mustbe a guardian of the faith.
(13:19):
And so what we've seen is thefailure of successive
archbishops of Canterbury to dothat.
And the authority of a bishop,of any bishop, is entirely
derivative uh of his consistencywith the scriptures.
Um so that having beendemonstrated now through
successive archbishops ofCanterbury, it is entirely
(13:42):
Anglican to say um thatsituation, that that position
has no uh it does not haveauthority.
SPEAKER_03 (13:49):
I mean, you're saying this to me now.
You've actually said it to hisface, to Justin Welby's face.
Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.
SPEAKER_02 (13:54):
I I I certainly did speak to uh Justin Welby on a
number of occasions and madevery clear um the concerns that
Sydney Anglicans have about thedirection in which the Church of
England was going, uh uh underhis leadership and with his with
his support.
I have to talk to him aboutthat, yes.
SPEAKER_03 (14:12):
The statement says sexuality is only symptomatic of
this deeper crisis.
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Yes.
The deeper crisis is what is theplace of the Bible, and the
articles of religion, thethirty-night articles, uh give a
very clear picture of theauthority of Scripture in uh
matters of doctrine and faith.
And uh what we've seen is thatum in relation to uh the uh the
(14:42):
tenets of the faith, uh theatonement of the cross, the
resurrection of the body, um thereturn and judgment of Jesus, as
well as these ethical matters uhto do with sexuality and
marriage and so on, um, that uhincreasingly there are uh whole
provinces of the AnglicanChurch.
Uh I mean, uh God preserves hisremnant in every place, but uh
(15:04):
there are uh whole provincesthat actually have abandoned
these kinds of principles.
SPEAKER_03 (15:09):
Now, um I mean at one level it's reasonably easy
to speak of whole provinces overthere or Archbishop of
Canterbury over there, but we'veactually got problems in the
Australian churches.
SPEAKER_02 (15:19):
Yes, absolutely we do.
We're very deeply divided aboutvery important things.
Uh so um fellowship in theAustralian Anglican Church has
been very strained for sometime.
SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
Now, it's the Australian Bishops meeting this
week.
You're not able to be there, butwere you there, what would you
be?
I mean, we asked you what you'dsay to the average Sydney
Anglican Pew member, what wouldyou be saying to the bishops of
the Australian Church?
Um I guess some of them are withyou, some of them are completely
opposite end of the spectrum,and some of them are in the
(15:50):
middle.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Yes.
Well, I I'd be saying to themthe same things that I had been
saying for the last uh as longas I've been archbishop.
Um, and uh they they may thinkof it as rather tedious and
repetitive, but uh I feel likeum the real reason for going.
Given the um very broken stateof our fellowship, I think it's
important at those kinds ofbishops' meetings to say, um,
(16:11):
look, uh we're not here talkingabout matters upon which
Christians in good consciencecan agree to differ.
And I think that was one of thereal failings of the last
Lambeth conference, uh, whenArchbishop Welby affirmed two
different views of the Bible'steaching on sexuality and
marriage, and said that theycould both, they could coexist
(16:33):
in some way.
Uh and uh um the scripturesdon't lead us to believe that
that is true.
There are things about whichChristians can, in good
conscience, agree to differ.
Uh, but there are other thingsuh which we might say are issues
of first importance, upon which,if you have a different view,
then you've walked away from thegospel.
(16:54):
And the scriptures don't tell usthat we should walk together
with error.
Um, we should be united in thetruth of God's word.
That's the point of Jesus'prayer in John 17, the prayer
for unity, unity in the word oftruth that comes from God.
The scriptures don't tell us towalk together with sin, but to
(17:15):
keep in step with the spirit andput to death death the works of
the flesh.
Um uh the uh the the scripturesuh encourage us to separate from
those uh from darkness, fromthose who teach falsehood uh and
not to walk together with them.
And I should say, yeah and tocall on people to repent.
(17:38):
And so um that certainly hasbeen the kind of conversation
that we've been having in thebishops' uh meetings over
several years is that these areAnd they get tense?
They get very tense, yes.
Right.
Cordial.
I think they always remaincordial.
But of course, these are noteasy things to discuss.
SPEAKER_03 (17:56):
Um Principal disengagement is one of the
words that's come out of theAbuja affirmation.
Um and what does it mean toprincipally disengage for you as
Archbishop of Sydney, for theDiocese of Sydney in the
Australian church context?
SPEAKER_02 (18:13):
Aaron Powell So the Abuja statement, uh the Abuja
affirmation, uh talking aboutthe leadership of the Global
Anglican Council, this newstructure that has replaced the
GAFCON Primates Council, a widerstructure, one that includes uh
and which you sit on.
And which I sit on, yes, that'strue.
Uh um it says that in order tobe part of that leadership,
(18:35):
there has to be a repudiation uhof the um so-called instruments
of communion.
Uh now, for Sydney Anglicans,um, this is really uh an
unremarkable thing because theDiocese of Sydney made the
decision in the 1990s uh becausethese issues have been very
long-standing.
(18:55):
Um in the 1990s, uh we withdrew,for example, from financial
support for the AnglicanCommunion Office in in
Canterbury.
Uh Harry Goodhue chaired theworking group on human sexuality
at the 1998 Lambeth Conference,the working group that produced
Resolution 110.
SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
I mean, I only I can't remember when I learnt
that, but what I thought, ohwow, what a hero.
Yeah, indeed.
Harry Goodhue, former Archbishopof Sydney.
SPEAKER_02 (19:24):
Indeed, indeed.
And I should say that the theGlobal South had published a
statement, uh the Kuala Lumpusstatement in 1997.
So they had already done quite alot of thinking about this and
brought that to the LambethConference, but Harry was the
chair at that time.
Since then, uh Sydney has notattended a Lambeth conference.
SPEAKER_03 (19:41):
So that's the that's they've already principally
disengaged.
SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
Yes, and Sydney has not held the primacy.
Um we uh the Archbishop ofSydney has not been elected to
the position of primate uh sincethe uh uh uh retirement of Sir
Marcus Lone.
SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
Um do you think it would mean we that the
Archbishop of Sydney couldn't bethe primate if they were to
principally if if they were toin principle principle
disengage?
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
Not now.
SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
Not now.
Um that is to say, of coursethey could be the primate.
Of course they could be theprimate.
Uh but if as primate they wouldhave to um not go to the
primates meeting, for example.
SPEAKER_03 (20:17):
Right.
Okay, yeah.
Um and uh Which I guess thePrimate would be able to do to
not go to the Primates.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
Yes, of course.
And in fact, that's exactly whatthe GAFCON primates have done in
recent years.
They've not gone not attended,they've principally disengaged.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So from our point of view, itdoesn't make a lot of difference
because we've already made thosedistinctions.
Uh in the 30s, our forebearsmade those decisions on
principle to express brokenfellowship in these kinds of
(20:42):
ways.
But uh there was an openness andin fact a decision to um embrace
a conciliar structure ratherthan simply mimic the very
structures that uh have beenrepudiated.
SPEAKER_03 (20:56):
I thought it sounded kind of grown up and modern and
the right thing for this age,all those kind of things.
Yeah.
But um, I've noticed some of theAnglo-Catholics in America are
pushing back on it.
Yeah.
And um, and one of the lines Ipicked up from the commentator
George Conger was that um theecclesiology adopted by the
Global Global Anglican Communionuh and the Global Anglican
(21:18):
Council is the ecclesiology ofSydney, Australia, Low Church.
So he described it as a win forSydney.
SPEAKER_02 (21:24):
Is that uh well, I don't think I'd put it that way
myself.
Um I I think it's thoroughlyAnglican.
So um if you look at the uh uhordinal, for example, the
consecration vows and promisesthat are made by a bishop, um,
they are in many cases they arealmost exactly the same as those
made by the presbyter or thepriest uh at um his ordination,
(21:48):
uh, in relation especially tothe sufficiency of scripture, uh
studying scripture, teachingscripture, and banishing error.
Uh those promises are made bythe presbyter as well as by the
bishop or the overseer.
And so Cranmer is verydeliberately and carefully
reflecting that the NewTestament pattern regards the
(22:09):
overseer or the bishop and thepresbyter or the elder as
virtually identical roles.
And uh the biblical um basisfrom 1 Timothy 3 or Titus 1 uh
reflects exactly that uhcloseness between these two
roles.
So I think in Cranmer's mind,the bishop was a presbyter who
(22:32):
had been set aside for aministry of oversight.
But in the consecration service,um, you know, which is so
moving, the bishop is presentedwith what?
A Bible, uh not a crown, a mitreon his head, not a seal, not a
ring on his finger, not ascepter, uh a staff in his hand,
(22:54):
because he's not a monarch, he'snot a prince, um an Anglican
bishop.
uh is a pastor and a teacher, uha shepherd who is given a Bible
uh so that he can exerciseoversight.
And uh and um one of thedistinctives in the uh
consecration service is and carefor the for the presbyters uh
(23:15):
along with um ordaining, uhcorrecting and mercy.
Those are the distinctives inthe ordinal.
But the heart of the promisesthat the bishop makes are the
same as that of the presbyter.
So the idea that the bishop is amonarch who exercises a
magisterium to me is foreignboth to scripture and to the
(23:38):
ordinal.
SPEAKER_03 (23:40):
I want to ask you on a different topic about this
plan to grow congregations byfive percent through conversion
growth.
And um this was the centralpoint of your presidential
address last synod and thecentral discussion of the first
two days of the synod and umpassed in the end without
dissent, but I haven't heardanything for five months about
(24:02):
it.
There's been crickets sincethen.
SPEAKER_02 (24:05):
Okay, sure.
Uh well um uh I can tell you oneof the things that I've been
very encouraged about is uh as Ipray for the rectors uh and they
share with me prayer points anumber of rectors have told me
uh that their uh leadershipteams are working through what
the five percent is going tomean um in their context so uh
for those who aren't aware uhthe synod invited all the
(24:25):
churches to prayerfully uh seekGod's work to bring um five
percent growth by conversion ineach year of the next five years
this is a response to thegrowing unbelief in Australia
the last census more than halfof Australians said they had no
religion uh and uh even thoughjust under half say they
(24:48):
identify as Christians we knowthat nothing like that are
engaged in regular worship orservice of the Lord Jesus um and
so there's a tremendous urgencyfor this mission and so I'm
delighted actually to see thatat the local level uh churches
parish councils ministry teamsare engaging and congregations
(25:09):
are engaging with this questionwhat does it mean in our context
to prayerfully seek this kind ofgoal and it's interesting how
that number just produces alittle mini crisis right what
are we going to do what wouldhave to change um are we being
prayerful for our unsavedfriends and neighbors are we
making connections with peoplewho don't know Jesus uh have we
(25:30):
got a um uh uh a way of sharingwhat it means to be a follower
of Jesus uh that people canunderstand and that is
attractive and that they want toengage with do we have a sense
of the peril in which peoplewithout Christ are currently
living um uh have we gotsomething to say to a community
(25:51):
that in many ways is anxious andlost and um uh lonely uh how can
we see the gospel make progressand so at local churches at the
area of mission areas uh localAnglican churches thinking and
praying um and being accountableto one another uh last year's
synod also passed a resolutionasking the rectors at mission
(26:15):
areas to share their evangelismplan um so that there can be
mutual encouragement mutuallearning uh and collaboration in
this work and the standingcommittee and the kind of uh
oversight uh organizations arealso engaged with this uh and uh
as as you know um we'll we'll bediscussing it later this month
(26:36):
so something is happening yesyes there are I think there are
many things happening yes rightokay um now what about
suggesting other Anglican I meanother Anglican dioceses have you
had conversations with them umother GAFCON provinces about
adopting the same kind of minicrisis discussion I I have not
perhaps I should I'll note thesuggestion one of the things
(27:00):
next topic one of the thingsyou've stepped into by the way
when it comes to the provincesum uh a a meeting like the one
we just had in Abuja just showsyou uh what courageous believing
prayerful evangelism looks likeyeah I mean because in a place
like Nigeria where uh you knowduring the week uh well in in in
(27:21):
2025 I think over 3,000 peoplewere murdered in Nigeria uh um
for their faith uh and yet theChurch of Nigeria who was such
marvelous hosts to us areabsolutely committed to the
multiplication not just ofchurches uh and believers but of
dioceses yes I I was reflectingon it it felt like the Church of
(27:43):
Nigeria doesn't need a fivepercent growth target they've
got a five percent diocesenumber of increases yes yes
indeed yeah it was um it wasreally quite extraordinary
inspiring yeah um one of thethings you've stepped into
recently is the debate aboutPauline Hansen and Islam and
free speech and uh you issued astatement saying we must reject
(28:03):
hateful words and threats ofviolence.
SPEAKER_03 (28:06):
There's been varied reactions some have thanked you
for speaking clearly others haveargued that you overstated
Hanson's remarks.
SPEAKER_02 (28:13):
Yeah thanks Dominic I'm aware that there's
discussion about this and uh youknow not just in in our context
I don't think I overstatedSenator Hanson's words.
I think uh she's a prominentpolitical figure and leader.
She has been for many years.
I think uh she was given theopportunity many times after the
initial remarks um simply to saythere are good Muslims and she
(28:37):
declined to do so on a on anumber of uh media occasions so
um I don't want to overstate herremarks but I think uh I I think
I had quite a reasonableunderstanding of what she said
that but I think more broadly uhI have made since um October 7th
2023 when uh that terrible umattack took place uh terrorist
(28:58):
attack by Hamas uh in Israelsince that time um those events
have undoubtedly impacted lifein Australia we understand this
and we're very familiar with theway in which that has unfolded
climaxing most tragically uh inthe terrorist attack on the
Jewish community in particularat Bondi uh in December last
(29:21):
year and over all of that time Ihave made I think uh uh uh I
think nine or ten publicstatements most of them opposing
uh anti-Semitism almost all ofthem opposing anti-Semitism over
that period there was there wereum threats made against a mosque
(29:42):
so I made a statement about thatand uh the most recent statement
that I've made um there were twothings happening there were the
statements made by SenatorHanson and at the same time
there was reporting that threeseparate um threatening letters
had been sent to a mosque inSydney.
And so I continued to make apublic statement opposing uh um
(30:09):
this kind of uh these threats ofviolence uh and um against
communities based on theirreligion and culture.
So that so that statement wasone of, as I say, uh nine or ten
statements that I've made overthat period of time, although
most of those statements were umopposing anti-Semitism.
(30:30):
Now I think Australia has been acountry in which people from
many cultures have been able tocome, who have made significant
contributions, who havepersonally, as indeed is the
case for my own family, who havebenefited from the freedom, the
safety, the stability, the peaceand the opportunity that
(30:51):
Australia provides.
I think that's something veryprecious and something that as
our national anthem says forthose who come across the seas
there's boundless planes toshare with heart and hand let's
all combine.
And that is the story of theEuropean settlement of
Australia.
(31:11):
It's a great story thegovernment is responsible for
managing immigration.
It's a very significantresponsibility it's a difficult
one.
There are lots of differentkinds of immigrants skilled
laborers, students, holidayworkers, refugees and asylum
seekers um it's a big job forthe government to handle uh and
(31:31):
um people are entitled toexpress their views about the
shape that that should take andthat's a proper discussion and
Senator Hanson is thoroughly umuh entitled to participate in
that discussion as well but butso are we and uh um uh from my
point of view as I said in thatstatement people come here from
(31:54):
all over the world with allkinds of cultures I said in my
statement Christians Jews andMuslims have serious differences
about the nature of God theperson of Jesus the way of
salvation and as Christians webelieve that Jesus is the only
and unique savior of the worldwe want to be able to share that
(32:14):
gospel with people of otherfaiths and no faiths and we'll
do it the way the scripture saysto do it with respect and
gentleness and with joy becausewe think it's such good news.
So um uh you know I I'm uh uhyeah well that's what I want to
(32:34):
say thanks very much for comingin my guest on The Pastor's
Heart Kanishka Raffle theArchbishop of Sydney next week
on the pastor's heart VaughnRoberts is going to be with us
uh actually I should just askyou about this Kanishka um he um
he's gonna be talking to usabout uh the book full of grace
and truth that um that he gaveout at the Abuja conference and
(32:56):
you've read it um uh anycomments on that um I think
Vaughan has uh served us sogenerously uh and so well in
expounding a biblical doctrineof marriage and human sexuality
uh and uh in this little uh umbooklet that he's produced which
(33:18):
I believe was based on theaddress he gave to the Lausanne
conference last year um hespells out in a way which is
very memorable uh very freshvery pastoral um the truth of
God's word about marriage andhuman sexuality uh in a way
which celebrates those thingswhich appreciates the good that
God has created in these giftsuh and the um imperative upon us
(33:43):
to receive them with gladnessand to uh pursue um our own uh
experience of humanity andsexuality in ways that honor and
please God.
SPEAKER_03 (33:52):
Thanks for coming in Kanishka Raffle the Archbishop
of Sydney my name's DominicSteele we'll catch you next
Tuesday afternoon with VaughanRoberts on the Pastor's Heart
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