January 13, 2026 • 41 mins
How should Christians react to news one of our heroes has engaged in an eight year sinful affair with a married woman?
- How should churches respond when leaders fall?
- Why do accountability structures fail?
- How do we speak of grace without minimising harm?
- What does faithfulness look like for pastors, churches and ordinary believers in moments like this?
Philip Yancey’s confession of an eight-year adulterous affair has shocked the evangelical world. His writing shaped a generation. His failure has caused deep harm.
We begin by hearing from a woman (name withheld) who has walked a similar path — the former wife of a senior ministry leader — as she reflects on betrayal, theology under trauma and the long fallout for families.
Keith Condie, is from Anglican Deaconess Ministries’ Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute. Veronica Hoyt is Director of the Priscilla and Aquila Centre at Sydney’s Moore Theological College. Chris Edwards is the Anglican, Bishop of North Sydney.
Link: Keith and Sarah Condie's marriage course.
Correction: It was mistakenly said in this episode that Yancey has Alzheimers. This was a mistake and should have been Parkinsons. Apologies.
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SPEAKER_04 (00:30):
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(00:52):
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(01:22):
My conduct defied everythingthat I believe about marriage.
It was also totally inconsistentwith my faith and my writings
and caused deep pain for herhusband and both of our
families.
They are the first words of theconfession of Philip Yancey
(01:43):
about an eight-year adultero,news of which has rocked the
evangelical Christian world inthe last few days.
You look at this photo of himwith the Christian books that he
has written, and I think he wasin, well, the top ten of
influential evangelical leadersin the last, well, the previous
(02:06):
decade, if not the last one.
It is our first Pastor's Heartepisode for 2026 and not the
episode that we had planned.
It's Dominic Steele here.
And today we will hear firstfrom the ex-wife of a ministry
leader who has lived throughwhat Philip Yancey's wife Janet
calls this place of trauma anddevastation of being betrayed.
(02:29):
She has walked that path ofbeing a senior evangelical
minister's wife and then had tograpple with discovering a
pattern of adultery and at thesame time being a public figure
in the church as her world wasimploding.
We're also joined today by KeithCondy from Anglican Deaconess
Ministries, Mental Health andPastoral Care Institute.
(02:50):
Veronica Hoyt is with us.
She's the director of thePriscilla and Aquila Center at
Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege and Bishop Chris
Edwards, the Bishop of NorthSydney in the Anglican Church.
Now, first we're going to get areaction to the Philip Yancey
disclosure from an old friendfrom 35 years ago.
She served 20 plus years inChristian ministry alongside her
(03:13):
husband, him in significantpastoral leadership roles,
especially to young adults.
We're blurring her face on thisvideo for confidentiality.
She reached out to me a longtime ago to ask about the
divorce care course that ourchurch was running and uh told
me about this sustained periodof extramarital sexual activity
(03:37):
that her husband had beenengaged in.
And uh look, I know that thePhilip Yancey thing has brought
it all up for you again, butlet's start with just your story
and how did you discover thatyour ministry leader husband was
engaged in a double life?
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Um when I discovered information that revealed the
truth, um he admitted to it.
Uh he did think that he waskeeping it all together and that
we could go on like that.
Um, but I didn't think that thatwas um being truthful to the
ministry organization.
(04:16):
So I I um had to tell peoplewhat was going on rather than
keep the secret and um keep thegame going until he wanted he
wanted to retire quietly uh fivein five years in the future.
Um yeah, there's there's nointegrity in that situation, so
for me, even though he thoughtthere was.
(04:39):
Uh yeah, so then because it's aministry role, um it's it goes
out of the personal realmimmediately.
Uh it has to be dealt with inthe ministry organization, in
the church that you go to, andmeanwhile the family is just
crushed, and um it's you know,when you're in shock, emotional
(04:59):
or physical shock, you justcan't process things um quickly.
Uh and so it takes a lot oftime, that whole grief process,
um, with all those added layersof um marital betrayal.
Uh so you're just in a state ofshock and um just trying to
(05:23):
function, get logistics done.
Uh, and we moved on fairlyquickly within a matter of a
couple of weeks.
He did agree to resign from hisrole.
Um, and uh we had to move onthen with the separation and the
divorce.
SPEAKER_04 (05:42):
How did God speak with you to you through all of
this?
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
I I mean there's a whole lot of um theology that I
think is very helpful.
Like it was helpful for me toremember that God um does oppose
the proud and that he has verysevere um consequences for
leaders who um betray theirtheir position.
(06:12):
Um and I mean you know, God hasstill got my husband alive, but
there are plenty of other goodpeople who have died.
So God is obviously giving my myex a chance to repent.
Um and I have to be open tothat.
Um but if but it's still truethat um people some people go to
(06:36):
hell because that's theirchoice, that's they've chosen to
reject uh the you know, the oneoffer of salvation that they
know.
Um once you've rejected that,then uh and also taken led
little ones astray, you know,the leaders are held to higher
account.
So um that's should be a awarning to anyone in leadership,
(07:05):
um, not to be not to just takepeople at their word and to be
circumspect.
I don't know how you guys do it,how you keep each other
accountable and how how you whenyou have a hunch or a feeling
like something's not right, howdo you pursue that?
But um when when when highprofile people are surrounded by
(07:26):
people who don't question at allor don't even ever think that
that could be a possibility,then that just uh creates an
atmosphere of um that enablesthat sort of getting off
scot-free, you know, that theycan do anything and and be
(07:46):
excused.
And unfortunately that's alittle bit of the rhetoric I
feel with this quick forgivenessand um and even in the media at
least when they're talking aboutuh Janet agreeing to caretake
her husband because that's hervows.
SPEAKER_04 (08:34):
You just mentioned uh Philip's wife Janet.
In her statement, she talks oftrauma and uh devastation that
only people like you who'velived through this are able to
understand.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yeah, I'm um my heart goes out to her.
Uh her words were devastated andtraumatized, and um we can all
probably feel what that's liketo have the bottom fall out of
your world.
Um you know, it's like a suddendeath, but it's worse because
the person standing in front ofyou is not the person you
(09:08):
thought they were.
They're a a different person.
They're they're um, you know,someone who can lie to your
face, who can sleep with youwhile sleeping with another
person, just all that crazydissonance that you can't
reconcile in your heart or yourhead uh at the time.
And it doesn't just uh disappearwhen someone says, please
(09:31):
forgive me or I'm sorry.
Your history's changed umpermanently.
And um I has spent it's stillongoing, even though it's been
10 years for me, that you whenyou think, when you have
memories, you now have toreinterpret those memories and
you're re-constantly rewritingyour history.
(09:53):
Uh, and you can't even trust umwhat they're telling you because
they're so good at lying thatthey could have been lying about
many other things at many othertimes.
So there's absolutely no trustum when someone is so skilled at
manipulating and umcompartmentalizing like that.
SPEAKER_04 (10:15):
We're thinking about uh Philip and Janet Yancey.
We're thinking about them aspeople who've read their books
as consumers, but uh the impactis much more for those who are
close.
Talk to me about the uh theimpact of all of this on your
family, particularly your kids.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Oh, unfortunately, my kids have um uh decided that
the church did not help in theirsituation at all.
Um, and so they've given uptheir their childhood faith.
I mean, they were um 2018 and 13at the time, so um the older one
(10:54):
had already um decided that hedidn't believe in his parents'
faith.
Um but they're very they'restill very angry at the church
for not um keeping him moreaccountable or doing more um
yeah, more accountability withhim.
In a way, you know, you forgiveand you show grace and you show
(11:18):
um patient, long-sufferingendurance in a marriage that's
not perfect, because no marriageis perfect.
Um and yeah, I thought that thestress of ministry life and
family life as um we went on inlife would alleviate the issue,
but because there was a abackground story that nobody
(11:39):
else was a party to that was umfueling his um demeanor, uh then
there's nothing we can do aboutthat.
That was going to beirredeemable unless he saw the
error of his way.
SPEAKER_04 (11:57):
The thing I can't get my head around, um, I mean,
I can think of the sin in amoment, but what I don't get is
of years of leading two lives,of sitting 10 plus hours a week
in the study, you, the Bible,the commentaries, preparing to
teach God's word, conductingmarriages, giving advice to new
(12:17):
husbands and wives, doingmarriage counseling, and
standing up publicly, privatelyand saying, I believe these
things in all sorts ofsituations, and yet in the end,
leading a double life andcondemning yourself with your
own words.
And I've thought that aboutYancy and the eight years, but
also about your husband.
(12:38):
But I mean Yancy has repented,but that's not been the story in
your marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (12:43):
He developed a new theology because he's so smart,
theologically smart, he hadjustified in his mind what he
was doing as being acceptable toGod.
Um and he did keep going tochurch and was counseled by um
at a different church, counseledby um the pastor there, the
minister there, for about ayear, and then um apparently
(13:06):
stopped going to church anddidn't change his views.
So um uh and didn't come back tome for um forgiveness or uh
offer any uh repentance.
SPEAKER_04 (13:22):
There's a lot of senior pastors and other
ministry leaders listening,watching us right now around the
world.
What is the word, the messagethat you want to say to them
today?
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Yeah, I want to say look after the vulnerable
people, the um women andchildren, or the the people who
are in a position of less power.
Um, because men can be abused inmarriages as well.
Um and unfortunately, um justsomeone saying they're sorry or
asking for forgiveness isthey're just words.
(13:56):
You need to see behavior, youneed to see consistent um
behavioral change to um to knowthat the heart has changed.
Um and so I think pastors haveto be very circumspect and um it
you've got to keep the weakerpeople safe.
Um, so you know, keeping puttingdifferent partners or
(14:21):
ex-partners in differentchurches um under different
leadership uh is one strategy.
There are examples where peopletry to keep their partners in
the same church or just indifferent congregations and in
the same circles, and I don'tthink that's safe for most
situations.
SPEAKER_04 (14:40):
Thank you for that.
Well, we have just heard thelived experience of what uh
Janet Yancey calls trauma anddevastation.
Um, Keith Condie, AnglicanDeaconess Ministries.
Let's just start with yourpastor's heart and reaction
there.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
Uh, that is just awful.
It's so awful.
The depth of deception, um, theimpact, the consequences, a
wife, children, the widerChristian community, I mean even
the self-deception involved inthat.
Yeah.
Just awful.
SPEAKER_04 (15:14):
Gives you a a picture of what might be going
on in the Yankee household atthe moment, Veronica.
unknown (15:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
Yeah, just the um the depth of deception, as as
you just said, Keith, uh, is isjust so awful.
Um, and uh the devastation uhjust has so many different
levels and layers.
And um they're all needing to benavigated by uh by Janet, by the
(15:41):
family, uh, by people who knewthem, uh by people who were
impacted by Yancey's ministries.
There are just so many layers ofdevastation here.
SPEAKER_04 (15:51):
And and Chris Edwards, no doubt, is I mean,
you've reflected on the Yanceything the last few days, and
also um listening to that.
I mean, you're a bishop, you'reinvolved in these messy
situations.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
Yeah, sadly I am from time to time.
And uh I think what we justheard uh might help some people
to understand, these neverhappen uh to only a couple of
people.
Uh the ripples will always goout and always wider than you
can imagine.
And the impact is never shortterm.
(16:25):
Uh it's always uh a painfullylong process.
And certainly whenever I've beeninvolved in uh these sorts of um
sad occasions, uh it's it'salways a slow uh and uh painful
process.
SPEAKER_04 (16:42):
Now, I mean, uh you've been involved in these
situations.
Um what happens when you getthat phone call?
SPEAKER_03 (16:50):
Well, um the first thing I do is uh I try to work
out um where everyone is interms of their emotional and
spiritual um uh the theresources that they've got.
Um, because uh for some peopleit comes as a complete surprise,
a completely out of the blue.
(17:11):
Others, it's a growing suspicionthat they finally twig to and
they get a confession from theperson who's been unfaithful.
Um and so uh it's just alwayshelpful to work out where they
are so you can put supportaround them that's appropriate
and helpful.
Um it's I guess a little bitlike uh you're doing uh a triage
(17:33):
to work out what's the mostimportant and urgent thing to
address.
Um and then uh I I always seekto um to pray with the people um
because one of the things weneed to remember is um um our
faith needs to be in JesusChrist.
And and when faithfulness inanother person has been broken
(17:56):
in a relationship like amarriage, you actually need to
remember that Christ is alwaysfaithful and that uh he never
changes.
And so going to him in prayer uhwill it it's essential.
It's absolutely essential.
But I also think it will helppeople to see that they have
access to God in this and thatthe resources that they have
(18:17):
available to them are infinite.
Um, and that the counseling andthe uh advice of others around
them, as helpful as it might be,uh you must always maintain uh
as a priority your communicationwith God, the Father who loves
us.
SPEAKER_04 (18:34):
I mean, it's thinking the cases I'm imagining
the cases that you've beeninvolved in where it's a
Christian leader who's sinnedhave been mostly people who've
actually had a formal officialrole in the church.
Whereas in the Yancey case, he'shad a long role of being
critical of the church.
And in fact, seasons of notgoing to church.
I understand he's now going tochurch, but a small little
(18:56):
independent church.
And I'm just thinking that guytrying to pastor him in this
situation, incredibly complex.
Um, Keith Condy, what are youthinking about all of this?
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Um you just think, how does this happen?
And then you think, well, youknow, the heart is deceitful
above all things.
But what's gotta happen tosomeone's conscience that for
eight years you can continue inthis situation, say all these
(19:28):
things to other people, writethis stuff in books.
SPEAKER_04 (19:32):
Um yeah, I just think Yeah, I mean, I I looked
back at his blogs month bymonth, there's been a blog, you
know, and they're pretty goodblogs.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Yes, and you know, at one level I think, oh, okay,
I know my own heart, and I knowI know my temptations, and I
know um how easy it is for yourconscience to become hardened to
to things that you know theyought not to be hardened to.
But um, but you know, this thisreally it it's it it is it's as
(20:04):
I said, the consequences are soawful, the sense of betrayal.
And you know, Chris, you talkedabout faithfulness, the
faithfulness of God.
Um you know, this is a breach ofeverything that we're called to
as God's people.
You know, we're called to befaithful as He is faithful, and
um and you know, when when weare faithful in our marriages,
(20:27):
we're being like God, and thisis so contrary to that.
SPEAKER_04 (20:31):
I feel like it's even worse, and I'll ask you
about this, Veronica, becausehe's kind of made authenticity
the hallmark of his writing.
Is that is it does you do youfeel like that?
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Yeah, I um I read his autobiography when it came
out uh four or five years ago,and I reread his conclusion just
over the last weekend.
SPEAKER_04 (20:54):
And it's this is in the period that he would have
been committing an offer.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
It would have been four years into this is my
calculation.
So, you know, right within thatperiod.
And his conclusion, in hisconclusion, it seemed like he
had wrestled with a lot ofthings in his past.
And it felt like he had come tosome sense of conclusion about
that.
And it rang really well.
(21:17):
It was authentic in hisacknowledgments.
He uh thanked his wife for 50years.
He said, you know, this is thisbook is coming out in the 50th
year of our wedding, of ourmarriage.
And so all of that was there.
And yet at the same time, I'mreading this and I'm thinking,
but you're also in an affair.
How can you write this?
(21:38):
It doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_04 (21:39):
I can't get my head around that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (21:42):
Chris?
Well, I think that it it speaksinto the fact that when you keep
secrets, uh, you see your heartuh and you then create
compartments.
And I think um that is what whatwhether it's Philip Yancy, other
other authors um and churchleaders and Christian
(22:05):
celebrities who've fallen inthis same direction have gone.
They've had uh secret lives.
Uh that's no different,actually, to local church
leaders who've failed in this,or husbands and wives who've
failed in this area.
They create a secret life, theyuh they compartmentalize their
heart and they sear it so thatthey can have, they kid
(22:29):
themselves, they can have twoexistences.
Um and I think that it's reallyimportant for people to maintain
a transparency and uh uh anaccountability.
Um there are some practicalthings you can do there to guard
against it.
SPEAKER_04 (22:44):
Um yet somebody said to me the other day, you're only
as accountable as you allowyourself to be.
This is a matter of the heart.
SPEAKER_03 (22:53):
This is a matter of the will.
SPEAKER_04 (22:54):
So we can put up the denomination or whatever, can
put up all the systems you like.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Well, yeah, people can have their professional
supervisors, they can have theirclose friends, but if you don't
open your mouth and say what'sgoing on, and that's why I say
you've you've hardened that partof your heart.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (23:10):
You you've deliberately constructed that,
and you're you you've got to beprepared and willing to um to
break that down yourself.
And that's why I say prayer isso important, because coming
before God in open and honestprayer is the first step to um
breaking down those barriers inyour heart.
(23:32):
If you're not prepared to dothat, then you you will just
keep hardening your heart.
SPEAKER_04 (23:37):
But I mean, Veronica, I haven't gone and
opened, I mean, I've got my copyof The Jesus I Never Knew on the
table here, but um, I haven'tbeen able to bring myself to
read it like you have the lastday or two.
Um I'm just thinking, I don'tknow how he could have written
what he wrote that so persuadedyou four years ago that it was
(23:59):
that felt so authentic to youfour years.
I just don't know how you coulddo it, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to what Chris has just
said.
It's a master life.
That's right, exactly right.
That somehow, um, I mean, we'rejust assuming here, uh, but at
the same time, it seems like umthere were just different parts
to his life.
And so you've you've got yourbook writing life, and this is
what you write when you writeyour books.
(24:25):
It might have been his speakinglife, which you know would have
been had its own umcharacteristics.
And then you have your private,your marriage, your
relationships with friends.
Um, but as Chris is saying, ifwe are not willing to allow
God's word to be across all ofthose things and not allowing
(24:46):
God's word to actually lodgedeeply within our hearts, then I
think it's really easy for us tojust have this little section of
our lives that is separate fromeverything else.
And I think that's what's beengoing on.
SPEAKER_04 (25:00):
Um Keith, uh, I mean, Yancey's the author of
What's So Amazing About Grace.
I mean, his name is synonymouswith grace.
Yes.
And when I think Grace, anamazing grace, I I think of him.
And and so I do want to, as Ibegin this conversation, say,
oh, grace needs to apply to him,and yet there is a complexity
(25:25):
here, and particularly for theleader.
SPEAKER_02 (25:27):
Yeah, there is.
Um Grace is wonderful, andwithout grace, um, we're all in
trouble.
We're all in deep trouble.
And without grace, PhilipYancey's in deep trouble.
And um, you mentioned you thinkthere's been genuine repentance,
uh, which is very different tothe story we heard earlier.
SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Well, he says there's been genuine repentance
in his statement.
Um I I'm not sure what I think,do you know?
Um but uh but he says it, and itis quite different to the story.
You're quite right, it's quitedifferent to the story of that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Very different.
And if there is, of course, ifthere's genuine repentance, we
should take it on face value.
SPEAKER_04 (26:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
Um, God's forgiveness knows no bounds, and
that's a wonderful, beautifulthing.
Um, of course, there's stillother consequences.
And, you know, is is this manlike he stepped down from his um
writing and whatever whateverother roles are.
SPEAKER_04 (26:21):
He's immediately declared that as a consequence,
yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
Um which is fitting consequence?
SPEAKER_04 (26:26):
Well, fitting consequence, but he has got
Alzheimer's and he is 74, so hewas going to step down pretty
soon anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
Okay.
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (26:34):
Um uh we have the issue though, in other pastoral
cases, of grace being extendedand yet no trust now extended.
Can you talk to us?
Because that's part of theyou're one of the rule setters
in this area.
You're of wanting to say grace,but also I can't trust that.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
I'll be a rule setter, uh, Dominic, but I I do
see that uh there's an issue ofum repentance, uh, an issue of
grace, and then trust is thisother thing.
Um and uh grace is somethingthat God lavishes on us.
Repentance is our response umwhen we've uh uh convicted of
(27:18):
sin.
And it's not simply aconfession, repentance uh is
always a changed behavior, it'sit's it's a complete change of
direction.
Um, so all those things need toline up.
When you see the fruit ofrepentance, you can start to
rebuild trust.
But that's in human terms.
(27:39):
Um it's only as we seerepentance lived out and
somebody said to me thatrebuilding of trust is like
moving Bondi Beach with a fork.
Yeah, it is.
That's why I say it's it takesyears.
It is a very, very slow process.
You shouldn't expect this to bequick.
The the issue of rebuildingtrust is why it's necessary, I
(27:59):
think, for leaders who fail likethis to step out of their
ministry.
It's it's why uh that the theloss of trust is um where
families need to work togetherto see how repentance is being
uh um fleshed out.
Because that's where when yousee that repentance at work,
(28:19):
you'll you'll be able to rebuildtrust without repentance,
without change in behavior,without that change of direction
entirely, then trust will neverbe rebuilt.
And simply saying the words isnot repentance, that's
confession.
SPEAKER_04 (28:32):
Take us to the scriptures and just help help me
understand some of these ideasof teachers will be judged more
strictly, the teachers worthy ofdouble honour, uh, and yet those
who sin will be rebukedpublicly.
Um discuss.
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
This is it, isn't it?
Um this is a shepherd of God'sflock.
Um those in that shepherdingrole have a particular
responsibility.
It's an it's a it's an awesomeresponsibility, and that's a
wonderful privilege.
Okay, so a noble task.
But at the same time, uh, youget this wrong.
(29:09):
The consequences are so severefor so many people.
SPEAKER_04 (29:13):
And um And the bigger the platform, the bigger
the consequences.
SPEAKER_02 (29:16):
Absolutely, you know, the harder the fall for
us.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Yeah, um speaking as uh a sheep within you know God's
family, I think it's importantfor um anyone who is in
ministry, um, particularly thosewho are preaching God's word, to
keep remembering that they arealso sheep before they are a
shepherd.
Uh and that as you are that andthat they are and that they need
(29:43):
to sit under God's word uh asmuch as they preach God's word.
And if that is happening, then Ithink there is less possibility
of that um spiritual drift.
And so again, I think just keepremembering we are sheep, we're
all sheep.
We all need you know God's word,whether we the whether we are
the senior preacher, whether wehave a large platform, um, we
(30:07):
all need God's word.
SPEAKER_04 (30:09):
I mean, just as you say that, I was just thinking of
um uh it's only happened to meonce, but um somebody rang me up
at seven o'clock in the morningand said, Dominic, I'm not fit
to preach this morning.
Um uh I had enormous row with mywife last night.
Um I shouldn't be in the pulpitum today.
(30:33):
Uh can you handle it?
Um and I actually have thoughtthat was a good moment of
integrity, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (30:43):
Yeah, Chris.
That's accountability, it is.
Um going back to the earlierquestion, I in in our
denomination, when you um areput into a position of
leadership ordained as a uh aleader in the church, um, there
are some fairly sobering wordsread from the various parts of
the scriptures to charge youwhen you read them.
SPEAKER_05 (31:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:05):
And uh a habit that we've got into here in Sydney is
when a minister commences uh anew uh in a new parish, then we
remind them of those promisesand we go over those, well,
they're vows that are made.
And every time we do, uh I'mstunned at the silence in the
(31:25):
room because of the weight ofthe commitment that a leader is
taking on.
And and I think it's a greathabit to be reminded of the
significance of leadership.
And whether whether it's uh anunfaithfulness in a marriage or
a failure in behavior, you youneed to be very, very careful.
(31:45):
I think the the the preacherthat rang you and said, I can't
get into the pulpit, is showingan integrity that that's really
important.
You probably went immediately tohow do I cover this.
But you've you've you've got tothen work out how do we actually
help this person uh to deal withwhatever that problem, that
issue is.
Uh, now that it's been shared,it can't be left.
(32:08):
It you you need to keep movingand working with it together.
And um, that's where I thinkthat accountability,
transparency, uh having an opencalendar, an open diary, uh, and
a shared life is it's soimportant, it's vital.
SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
What should our response now be to his books?
To I mean, I'm thinking RaviZacharias's books, Roy Clemens'
books, um Philip Yancey's book.
You I mean, you've read it thisweekend, but but then I didn't
feel like reading it.
Yeah.
What do you think in terms ofwhat's your ongoing response
going to be towards his books?
SPEAKER_01 (32:45):
Well, I think trust has been broken.
And so I think it's reallydifficult uh to read those books
now uh and be able to trust uhthe person who wrote them.
Uh now the words that he wroteuh are still true, uh, and yet I
think personally I don't think Icould read them again.
SPEAKER_04 (33:05):
Yeah, not sitting, I mean you were reading them as a
critic the other day.
That's right.
But but not to sit under them asa student, which is the way I've
read them in the past.
That's right.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Yeah, you know, they're still some great
illustrations.
I just think back how I usedsome of those books and found
them very helpful.
Yeah.
And um, and you know, perhaps atthat point in his life there was
an integrity to his character,and he's fallen from that.
So, yeah, so I don't know.
That's it's a good question,Dominic.
(33:37):
I don't think I can think I needto reflect on.
SPEAKER_03 (33:39):
Chris, well, I think um all every author I've read is
uh apart from the Lord Jesus, uhand every preacher you've heard
is flawed.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And so I think that uh uh it'sit's really what they've written
uh is is helpful and useful, andyou probably should, but as
(34:00):
Veronica said, it's a questionof trust.
And uh you can only rebuild thattrust when you see the fruit of
repentance.
Um and unfortunately with thesefamous authors, uh well, Ravi
Zacharias is no longer alive, soit's impossible to see how he
may have changed.
It's with Philip Yancey, I Idoubt we'll ever hear from him
(34:22):
again publicly.
So it's hard to know how thatwill have an embassy.
SPEAKER_04 (34:26):
And if you did, and if you did, it would be a
carefully media managed moment.
SPEAKER_03 (34:29):
Yeah, so it's very it's very difficult to rebuild
that trust in in them.
Um I do remember when RoyClements' um books went on sale
at a very low price after uh itwas made public about$25 a
commentary to$2 a commentary.
That's right, that's right.
Um and so uh I I think I pickedup a few at that low price and
(34:52):
found a lot of what he wasexplaining from the scriptures
was very helpful, but I don'thave the opportunity to rebuild
trust because I I I don't know,I just don't know the man.
SPEAKER_04 (35:04):
I only know him as an author.
Well, I mean, what you readnowadays is that his trajectory
has continued.
SPEAKER_05 (35:10):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04 (35:11):
Um what about care?
I mean, the woman we spoke tomade the point about the
church's temptation is to, ifyou like, care for the
organization rather than carefor the vulnerable and care for
the weak one in that situation.
Um you're not in keeping.
SPEAKER_02 (35:30):
Right, we've just got to get alongside these
people and offer them whateversupport.
Just not abandon people intheir, you know, hour of real
need.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
I think it's important as well that we're not
just there in the short term,but that we see this as being
long-term support.
Uh, there's a lot of things thatyou need to do in the short
term.
As Chris mentioned, there's theall the uh triaging that we need
to do, and you know, what dothey need in that immediate
moment?
But this is a long-term umstruggle, and there's going to
(36:01):
be long-term repercussions, andthey need us uh to be there for
the long term uh in thosevarious stages of dealing with
it.
SPEAKER_04 (36:12):
Positive story on this.
Um, I remember going toWashington and Mark Deva was
showing me around, and we werestanding on the roof of Capitol
Baptist Church, and he said, Oh,we own those, I don't know, five
houses there.
And I said, Oh, who's in them?
And um, I was expecting him totell me about and he and he
said, actually, um, Roy Clemens'ex-wife is staying there at the
(36:34):
moment and um in one of them.
And uh I just said, Oh, that'slovely that um there's this
evangelical leader in the UKwho's fallen, and and yet the
wider Christian community hasgot behind and cared for and
loved um uh his wife in thatsituation.
I mean, there's a there's apositive story to balance that
(36:54):
negative one that we heardearlier.
Yeah.
So um, in terms of prevention,um, I mean, w you talked about
accountability, but I I I don'tthink accountability on its own
is the answer at all.
What what do we do?
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
Have you heard of that 12 steps to an affair?
Have you heard of it?
SPEAKER_04 (37:15):
I have, but it's a long time ago.
So remind me.
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
Okay, step one is the only one we need to be
really concerned about.
Readiness.
unknown (37:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Okay.
So there's something going on,an emotional readiness, uh, that
someone's sort of leaning out ofthe marriage and is looking for
something else.
And that readiness, we just gotto be alert to that.
And and I think you know howProverbs five to seven
particularly talks a lot aboutadultery and its danger.
(37:45):
And I think I think there's twothings that really come through
from that from that passage.
Um one is the the protection ofour heart.
You spoke about the heart,Chris, guarding the heart above
all else.
Um treasuring God's commands inyour heart.
Uh just just not allowing thatconscience to be seared, the
heart to be seared.
(38:06):
Um, but just that constant, theteacher constantly saying, you
know, keep my commands.
Um we've just got to have thatthat willingness to engage with
the word of God in a way that ittouches our heart deeply.
And then I think the other thingit talks about, it talks about
being uh speaking to the man, beintoxicated by your wife.
(38:28):
You know, it talks about themarriage and treasuring your
marriage and investing in yourmarriage and protecting and
guarding your marriage.
And I think that wordintoxicated, if the um my
Hebrew's gone, but but if the uhESV footnote is correct, it says
be led astray, let her lead youastray, or you know, uh
overwhelm you with um keep yourkeep your desire for her.
(38:54):
And I just I think anything wecan do to protect and work on
our marriages and and theimportance of emotional
connection, that sense ofsafety, that sense of deep um
this is the person who feeds,you know, feeds me.
The Lord feeds my soul, and thisperson feeds me emotionally um
(39:16):
as well.
Um so a blatant plug, we've gota marriage course.
Many people have found it veryhelpful.
And and I just think you willlink to it in the show notes
here.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah, I just think somethinglike these, these are the things
we need.
We need that, and we just needthat spiritual investment, you
(39:37):
know, just keep working on ourrelationship with the Lord.
SPEAKER_04 (39:41):
Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
Our guests on the Pastor'sHeart, Chris Edwards, the Bishop
of North Sydney.
Veronica Hoyt, she's with thePriscilla and Aquila Centre at
Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege, and Keith Condy, who
leads the mental health andpastoral care initiative of
Anglican Deaconess Ministries.
My name's Dominic Steele.
(40:02):
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
Hey, we're taking the pastor's heart on the road,
and can you please help fund ourcoverage of the reordering of
the Anglican Communion?
We're planning a series of dailybroadcasts from Abuja, Nigeria,
for the first week in March asthe faithful bishops of the
Anglican Communion gather tomove away from apostasy,
colonialism, and Canterbury to afaithfulness to Jesus Christ.
(00:52):
We'll be there with a fullcoverage, and to do that, we
need your financial support.
Go to thepastorsheart.net andclick on the link at the top of
the page.
(01:22):
My conduct defied everythingthat I believe about marriage.
It was also totally inconsistentwith my faith and my writings
and caused deep pain for herhusband and both of our
families.
They are the first words of theconfession of Philip Yancey
(01:43):
about an eight-year adultero,news of which has rocked the
evangelical Christian world inthe last few days.
You look at this photo of himwith the Christian books that he
has written, and I think he wasin, well, the top ten of
influential evangelical leadersin the last, well, the previous
(02:06):
decade, if not the last one.
It is our first Pastor's Heartepisode for 2026 and not the
episode that we had planned.
It's Dominic Steele here.
And today we will hear firstfrom the ex-wife of a ministry
leader who has lived throughwhat Philip Yancey's wife Janet
calls this place of trauma anddevastation of being betrayed.
(02:29):
She has walked that path ofbeing a senior evangelical
minister's wife and then had tograpple with discovering a
pattern of adultery and at thesame time being a public figure
in the church as her world wasimploding.
We're also joined today by KeithCondy from Anglican Deaconess
Ministries, Mental Health andPastoral Care Institute.
(02:50):
Veronica Hoyt is with us.
She's the director of thePriscilla and Aquila Center at
Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege and Bishop Chris
Edwards, the Bishop of NorthSydney in the Anglican Church.
Now, first we're going to get areaction to the Philip Yancey
disclosure from an old friendfrom 35 years ago.
She served 20 plus years inChristian ministry alongside her
(03:13):
husband, him in significantpastoral leadership roles,
especially to young adults.
We're blurring her face on thisvideo for confidentiality.
She reached out to me a longtime ago to ask about the
divorce care course that ourchurch was running and uh told
me about this sustained periodof extramarital sexual activity
(03:37):
that her husband had beenengaged in.
And uh look, I know that thePhilip Yancey thing has brought
it all up for you again, butlet's start with just your story
and how did you discover thatyour ministry leader husband was
engaged in a double life?
SPEAKER_00 (03:56):
Um when I discovered information that revealed the
truth, um he admitted to it.
Uh he did think that he waskeeping it all together and that
we could go on like that.
Um, but I didn't think that thatwas um being truthful to the
ministry organization.
(04:16):
So I I um had to tell peoplewhat was going on rather than
keep the secret and um keep thegame going until he wanted he
wanted to retire quietly uh fivein five years in the future.
Um yeah, there's there's nointegrity in that situation, so
for me, even though he thoughtthere was.
(04:39):
Uh yeah, so then because it's aministry role, um it's it goes
out of the personal realmimmediately.
Uh it has to be dealt with inthe ministry organization, in
the church that you go to, andmeanwhile the family is just
crushed, and um it's you know,when you're in shock, emotional
(04:59):
or physical shock, you justcan't process things um quickly.
Uh and so it takes a lot oftime, that whole grief process,
um, with all those added layersof um marital betrayal.
Uh so you're just in a state ofshock and um just trying to
(05:23):
function, get logistics done.
Uh, and we moved on fairlyquickly within a matter of a
couple of weeks.
He did agree to resign from hisrole.
Um, and uh we had to move onthen with the separation and the
divorce.
SPEAKER_04 (05:42):
How did God speak with you to you through all of
this?
SPEAKER_00 (05:49):
I I mean there's a whole lot of um theology that I
think is very helpful.
Like it was helpful for me toremember that God um does oppose
the proud and that he has verysevere um consequences for
leaders who um betray theirtheir position.
(06:12):
Um and I mean you know, God hasstill got my husband alive, but
there are plenty of other goodpeople who have died.
So God is obviously giving my myex a chance to repent.
Um and I have to be open tothat.
Um but if but it's still truethat um people some people go to
(06:36):
hell because that's theirchoice, that's they've chosen to
reject uh the you know, the oneoffer of salvation that they
know.
Um once you've rejected that,then uh and also taken led
little ones astray, you know,the leaders are held to higher
account.
So um that's should be a awarning to anyone in leadership,
(07:05):
um, not to be not to just takepeople at their word and to be
circumspect.
I don't know how you guys do it,how you keep each other
accountable and how how you whenyou have a hunch or a feeling
like something's not right, howdo you pursue that?
But um when when when highprofile people are surrounded by
(07:26):
people who don't question at allor don't even ever think that
that could be a possibility,then that just uh creates an
atmosphere of um that enablesthat sort of getting off
scot-free, you know, that theycan do anything and and be
(07:46):
excused.
And unfortunately that's alittle bit of the rhetoric I
feel with this quick forgivenessand um and even in the media at
least when they're talking aboutuh Janet agreeing to caretake
her husband because that's hervows.
SPEAKER_04 (08:34):
You just mentioned uh Philip's wife Janet.
In her statement, she talks oftrauma and uh devastation that
only people like you who'velived through this are able to
understand.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
Yeah, I'm um my heart goes out to her.
Uh her words were devastated andtraumatized, and um we can all
probably feel what that's liketo have the bottom fall out of
your world.
Um you know, it's like a suddendeath, but it's worse because
the person standing in front ofyou is not the person you
(09:08):
thought they were.
They're a a different person.
They're they're um, you know,someone who can lie to your
face, who can sleep with youwhile sleeping with another
person, just all that crazydissonance that you can't
reconcile in your heart or yourhead uh at the time.
And it doesn't just uh disappearwhen someone says, please
(09:31):
forgive me or I'm sorry.
Your history's changed umpermanently.
And um I has spent it's stillongoing, even though it's been
10 years for me, that you whenyou think, when you have
memories, you now have toreinterpret those memories and
you're re-constantly rewritingyour history.
(09:53):
Uh, and you can't even trust umwhat they're telling you because
they're so good at lying thatthey could have been lying about
many other things at many othertimes.
So there's absolutely no trustum when someone is so skilled at
manipulating and umcompartmentalizing like that.
SPEAKER_04 (10:15):
We're thinking about uh Philip and Janet Yancey.
We're thinking about them aspeople who've read their books
as consumers, but uh the impactis much more for those who are
close.
Talk to me about the uh theimpact of all of this on your
family, particularly your kids.
SPEAKER_00 (10:30):
Oh, unfortunately, my kids have um uh decided that
the church did not help in theirsituation at all.
Um, and so they've given uptheir their childhood faith.
I mean, they were um 2018 and 13at the time, so um the older one
(10:54):
had already um decided that hedidn't believe in his parents'
faith.
Um but they're very they'restill very angry at the church
for not um keeping him moreaccountable or doing more um
yeah, more accountability withhim.
In a way, you know, you forgiveand you show grace and you show
(11:18):
um patient, long-sufferingendurance in a marriage that's
not perfect, because no marriageis perfect.
Um and yeah, I thought that thestress of ministry life and
family life as um we went on inlife would alleviate the issue,
but because there was a abackground story that nobody
(11:39):
else was a party to that was umfueling his um demeanor, uh then
there's nothing we can do aboutthat.
That was going to beirredeemable unless he saw the
error of his way.
SPEAKER_04 (11:57):
The thing I can't get my head around, um, I mean,
I can think of the sin in amoment, but what I don't get is
of years of leading two lives,of sitting 10 plus hours a week
in the study, you, the Bible,the commentaries, preparing to
teach God's word, conductingmarriages, giving advice to new
(12:17):
husbands and wives, doingmarriage counseling, and
standing up publicly, privatelyand saying, I believe these
things in all sorts ofsituations, and yet in the end,
leading a double life andcondemning yourself with your
own words.
And I've thought that aboutYancy and the eight years, but
also about your husband.
(12:38):
But I mean Yancy has repented,but that's not been the story in
your marriage.
SPEAKER_00 (12:43):
He developed a new theology because he's so smart,
theologically smart, he hadjustified in his mind what he
was doing as being acceptable toGod.
Um and he did keep going tochurch and was counseled by um
at a different church, counseledby um the pastor there, the
minister there, for about ayear, and then um apparently
(13:06):
stopped going to church anddidn't change his views.
So um uh and didn't come back tome for um forgiveness or uh
offer any uh repentance.
SPEAKER_04 (13:22):
There's a lot of senior pastors and other
ministry leaders listening,watching us right now around the
world.
What is the word, the messagethat you want to say to them
today?
SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Yeah, I want to say look after the vulnerable
people, the um women andchildren, or the the people who
are in a position of less power.
Um, because men can be abused inmarriages as well.
Um and unfortunately, um justsomeone saying they're sorry or
asking for forgiveness isthey're just words.
(13:56):
You need to see behavior, youneed to see consistent um
behavioral change to um to knowthat the heart has changed.
Um and so I think pastors haveto be very circumspect and um it
you've got to keep the weakerpeople safe.
Um, so you know, keeping puttingdifferent partners or
(14:21):
ex-partners in differentchurches um under different
leadership uh is one strategy.
There are examples where peopletry to keep their partners in
the same church or just indifferent congregations and in
the same circles, and I don'tthink that's safe for most
situations.
SPEAKER_04 (14:40):
Thank you for that.
Well, we have just heard thelived experience of what uh
Janet Yancey calls trauma anddevastation.
Um, Keith Condie, AnglicanDeaconess Ministries.
Let's just start with yourpastor's heart and reaction
there.
SPEAKER_02 (14:56):
Uh, that is just awful.
It's so awful.
The depth of deception, um, theimpact, the consequences, a
wife, children, the widerChristian community, I mean even
the self-deception involved inthat.
Yeah.
Just awful.
SPEAKER_04 (15:14):
Gives you a a picture of what might be going
on in the Yankee household atthe moment, Veronica.
unknown (15:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (15:20):
Yeah, just the um the depth of deception, as as
you just said, Keith, uh, is isjust so awful.
Um, and uh the devastation uhjust has so many different
levels and layers.
And um they're all needing to benavigated by uh by Janet, by the
(15:41):
family, uh, by people who knewthem, uh by people who were
impacted by Yancey's ministries.
There are just so many layers ofdevastation here.
SPEAKER_04 (15:51):
And and Chris Edwards, no doubt, is I mean,
you've reflected on the Yanceything the last few days, and
also um listening to that.
I mean, you're a bishop, you'reinvolved in these messy
situations.
SPEAKER_03 (16:02):
Yeah, sadly I am from time to time.
And uh I think what we justheard uh might help some people
to understand, these neverhappen uh to only a couple of
people.
Uh the ripples will always goout and always wider than you
can imagine.
And the impact is never shortterm.
(16:25):
Uh it's always uh a painfullylong process.
And certainly whenever I've beeninvolved in uh these sorts of um
sad occasions, uh it's it'salways a slow uh and uh painful
process.
SPEAKER_04 (16:42):
Now, I mean, uh you've been involved in these
situations.
Um what happens when you getthat phone call?
SPEAKER_03 (16:50):
Well, um the first thing I do is uh I try to work
out um where everyone is interms of their emotional and
spiritual um uh the theresources that they've got.
Um, because uh for some peopleit comes as a complete surprise,
a completely out of the blue.
(17:11):
Others, it's a growing suspicionthat they finally twig to and
they get a confession from theperson who's been unfaithful.
Um and so uh it's just alwayshelpful to work out where they
are so you can put supportaround them that's appropriate
and helpful.
Um it's I guess a little bitlike uh you're doing uh a triage
(17:33):
to work out what's the mostimportant and urgent thing to
address.
Um and then uh I I always seekto um to pray with the people um
because one of the things weneed to remember is um um our
faith needs to be in JesusChrist.
And and when faithfulness inanother person has been broken
(17:56):
in a relationship like amarriage, you actually need to
remember that Christ is alwaysfaithful and that uh he never
changes.
And so going to him in prayer uhwill it it's essential.
It's absolutely essential.
But I also think it will helppeople to see that they have
access to God in this and thatthe resources that they have
(18:17):
available to them are infinite.
Um, and that the counseling andthe uh advice of others around
them, as helpful as it might be,uh you must always maintain uh
as a priority your communicationwith God, the Father who loves
us.
SPEAKER_04 (18:34):
I mean, it's thinking the cases I'm imagining
the cases that you've beeninvolved in where it's a
Christian leader who's sinnedhave been mostly people who've
actually had a formal officialrole in the church.
Whereas in the Yancey case, he'shad a long role of being
critical of the church.
And in fact, seasons of notgoing to church.
I understand he's now going tochurch, but a small little
(18:56):
independent church.
And I'm just thinking that guytrying to pastor him in this
situation, incredibly complex.
Um, Keith Condy, what are youthinking about all of this?
SPEAKER_02 (19:08):
Um you just think, how does this happen?
And then you think, well, youknow, the heart is deceitful
above all things.
But what's gotta happen tosomeone's conscience that for
eight years you can continue inthis situation, say all these
(19:28):
things to other people, writethis stuff in books.
SPEAKER_04 (19:32):
Um yeah, I just think Yeah, I mean, I I looked
back at his blogs month bymonth, there's been a blog, you
know, and they're pretty goodblogs.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Yes, and you know, at one level I think, oh, okay,
I know my own heart, and I knowI know my temptations, and I
know um how easy it is for yourconscience to become hardened to
to things that you know theyought not to be hardened to.
But um, but you know, this thisreally it it's it it is it's as
(20:04):
I said, the consequences are soawful, the sense of betrayal.
And you know, Chris, you talkedabout faithfulness, the
faithfulness of God.
Um you know, this is a breach ofeverything that we're called to
as God's people.
You know, we're called to befaithful as He is faithful, and
um and you know, when when weare faithful in our marriages,
(20:27):
we're being like God, and thisis so contrary to that.
SPEAKER_04 (20:31):
I feel like it's even worse, and I'll ask you
about this, Veronica, becausehe's kind of made authenticity
the hallmark of his writing.
Is that is it does you do youfeel like that?
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Yeah, I um I read his autobiography when it came
out uh four or five years ago,and I reread his conclusion just
over the last weekend.
SPEAKER_04 (20:54):
And it's this is in the period that he would have
been committing an offer.
SPEAKER_01 (20:56):
It would have been four years into this is my
calculation.
So, you know, right within thatperiod.
And his conclusion, in hisconclusion, it seemed like he
had wrestled with a lot ofthings in his past.
And it felt like he had come tosome sense of conclusion about
that.
And it rang really well.
(21:17):
It was authentic in hisacknowledgments.
He uh thanked his wife for 50years.
He said, you know, this is thisbook is coming out in the 50th
year of our wedding, of ourmarriage.
And so all of that was there.
And yet at the same time, I'mreading this and I'm thinking,
but you're also in an affair.
How can you write this?
(21:38):
It doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_04 (21:39):
I can't get my head around that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:40):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (21:42):
Chris?
Well, I think that it it speaksinto the fact that when you keep
secrets, uh, you see your heartuh and you then create
compartments.
And I think um that is what whatwhether it's Philip Yancy, other
other authors um and churchleaders and Christian
(22:05):
celebrities who've fallen inthis same direction have gone.
They've had uh secret lives.
Uh that's no different,actually, to local church
leaders who've failed in this,or husbands and wives who've
failed in this area.
They create a secret life, theyuh they compartmentalize their
heart and they sear it so thatthey can have, they kid
(22:29):
themselves, they can have twoexistences.
Um and I think that it's reallyimportant for people to maintain
a transparency and uh uh anaccountability.
Um there are some practicalthings you can do there to guard
against it.
SPEAKER_04 (22:44):
Um yet somebody said to me the other day, you're only
as accountable as you allowyourself to be.
This is a matter of the heart.
SPEAKER_03 (22:53):
This is a matter of the will.
SPEAKER_04 (22:54):
So we can put up the denomination or whatever, can
put up all the systems you like.
SPEAKER_02 (23:00):
Well, yeah, people can have their professional
supervisors, they can have theirclose friends, but if you don't
open your mouth and say what'sgoing on, and that's why I say
you've you've hardened that partof your heart.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (23:10):
You you've deliberately constructed that,
and you're you you've got to beprepared and willing to um to
break that down yourself.
And that's why I say prayer isso important, because coming
before God in open and honestprayer is the first step to um
breaking down those barriers inyour heart.
(23:32):
If you're not prepared to dothat, then you you will just
keep hardening your heart.
SPEAKER_04 (23:37):
But I mean, Veronica, I haven't gone and
opened, I mean, I've got my copyof The Jesus I Never Knew on the
table here, but um, I haven'tbeen able to bring myself to
read it like you have the lastday or two.
Um I'm just thinking, I don'tknow how he could have written
what he wrote that so persuadedyou four years ago that it was
(23:59):
that felt so authentic to youfour years.
I just don't know how you coulddo it, do you know?
SPEAKER_01 (24:05):
Yeah, and I think it goes back to what Chris has just
said.
It's a master life.
That's right, exactly right.
That somehow, um, I mean, we'rejust assuming here, uh, but at
the same time, it seems like umthere were just different parts
to his life.
And so you've you've got yourbook writing life, and this is
what you write when you writeyour books.
(24:25):
It might have been his speakinglife, which you know would have
been had its own umcharacteristics.
And then you have your private,your marriage, your
relationships with friends.
Um, but as Chris is saying, ifwe are not willing to allow
God's word to be across all ofthose things and not allowing
(24:46):
God's word to actually lodgedeeply within our hearts, then I
think it's really easy for us tojust have this little section of
our lives that is separate fromeverything else.
And I think that's what's beengoing on.
SPEAKER_04 (25:00):
Um Keith, uh, I mean, Yancey's the author of
What's So Amazing About Grace.
I mean, his name is synonymouswith grace.
Yes.
And when I think Grace, anamazing grace, I I think of him.
And and so I do want to, as Ibegin this conversation, say,
oh, grace needs to apply to him,and yet there is a complexity
(25:25):
here, and particularly for theleader.
SPEAKER_02 (25:27):
Yeah, there is.
Um Grace is wonderful, andwithout grace, um, we're all in
trouble.
We're all in deep trouble.
And without grace, PhilipYancey's in deep trouble.
And um, you mentioned you thinkthere's been genuine repentance,
uh, which is very different tothe story we heard earlier.
SPEAKER_04 (25:47):
Well, he says there's been genuine repentance
in his statement.
Um I I'm not sure what I think,do you know?
Um but uh but he says it, and itis quite different to the story.
You're quite right, it's quitedifferent to the story of that.
SPEAKER_02 (26:00):
Very different.
And if there is, of course, ifthere's genuine repentance, we
should take it on face value.
SPEAKER_04 (26:05):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:06):
Um, God's forgiveness knows no bounds, and
that's a wonderful, beautifulthing.
Um, of course, there's stillother consequences.
And, you know, is is this manlike he stepped down from his um
writing and whatever whateverother roles are.
SPEAKER_04 (26:21):
He's immediately declared that as a consequence,
yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
Um which is fitting consequence?
SPEAKER_04 (26:26):
Well, fitting consequence, but he has got
Alzheimer's and he is 74, so hewas going to step down pretty
soon anyway.
SPEAKER_02 (26:32):
Okay.
Sure.
SPEAKER_04 (26:34):
Um uh we have the issue though, in other pastoral
cases, of grace being extendedand yet no trust now extended.
Can you talk to us?
Because that's part of theyou're one of the rule setters
in this area.
You're of wanting to say grace,but also I can't trust that.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
I'll be a rule setter, uh, Dominic, but I I do
see that uh there's an issue ofum repentance, uh, an issue of
grace, and then trust is thisother thing.
Um and uh grace is somethingthat God lavishes on us.
Repentance is our response umwhen we've uh uh convicted of
(27:18):
sin.
And it's not simply aconfession, repentance uh is
always a changed behavior, it'sit's it's a complete change of
direction.
Um, so all those things need toline up.
When you see the fruit ofrepentance, you can start to
rebuild trust.
But that's in human terms.
(27:39):
Um it's only as we seerepentance lived out and
somebody said to me thatrebuilding of trust is like
moving Bondi Beach with a fork.
Yeah, it is.
That's why I say it's it takesyears.
It is a very, very slow process.
You shouldn't expect this to bequick.
The the issue of rebuildingtrust is why it's necessary, I
(27:59):
think, for leaders who fail likethis to step out of their
ministry.
It's it's why uh that the theloss of trust is um where
families need to work togetherto see how repentance is being
uh um fleshed out.
Because that's where when yousee that repentance at work,
(28:19):
you'll you'll be able to rebuildtrust without repentance,
without change in behavior,without that change of direction
entirely, then trust will neverbe rebuilt.
And simply saying the words isnot repentance, that's
confession.
SPEAKER_04 (28:32):
Take us to the scriptures and just help help me
understand some of these ideasof teachers will be judged more
strictly, the teachers worthy ofdouble honour, uh, and yet those
who sin will be rebukedpublicly.
Um discuss.
SPEAKER_02 (28:49):
This is it, isn't it?
Um this is a shepherd of God'sflock.
Um those in that shepherdingrole have a particular
responsibility.
It's an it's a it's an awesomeresponsibility, and that's a
wonderful privilege.
Okay, so a noble task.
But at the same time, uh, youget this wrong.
(29:09):
The consequences are so severefor so many people.
SPEAKER_04 (29:13):
And um And the bigger the platform, the bigger
the consequences.
SPEAKER_02 (29:16):
Absolutely, you know, the harder the fall for
us.
SPEAKER_01 (29:22):
Yeah, um speaking as uh a sheep within you know God's
family, I think it's importantfor um anyone who is in
ministry, um, particularly thosewho are preaching God's word, to
keep remembering that they arealso sheep before they are a
shepherd.
Uh and that as you are that andthat they are and that they need
(29:43):
to sit under God's word uh asmuch as they preach God's word.
And if that is happening, then Ithink there is less possibility
of that um spiritual drift.
And so again, I think just keepremembering we are sheep, we're
all sheep.
We all need you know God's word,whether we the whether we are
the senior preacher, whether wehave a large platform, um, we
(30:07):
all need God's word.
SPEAKER_04 (30:09):
I mean, just as you say that, I was just thinking of
um uh it's only happened to meonce, but um somebody rang me up
at seven o'clock in the morningand said, Dominic, I'm not fit
to preach this morning.
Um uh I had enormous row with mywife last night.
Um I shouldn't be in the pulpitum today.
(30:33):
Uh can you handle it?
Um and I actually have thoughtthat was a good moment of
integrity, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (30:43):
Yeah, Chris.
That's accountability, it is.
Um going back to the earlierquestion, I in in our
denomination, when you um areput into a position of
leadership ordained as a uh aleader in the church, um, there
are some fairly sobering wordsread from the various parts of
the scriptures to charge youwhen you read them.
SPEAKER_05 (31:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:05):
And uh a habit that we've got into here in Sydney is
when a minister commences uh anew uh in a new parish, then we
remind them of those promisesand we go over those, well,
they're vows that are made.
And every time we do, uh I'mstunned at the silence in the
(31:25):
room because of the weight ofthe commitment that a leader is
taking on.
And and I think it's a greathabit to be reminded of the
significance of leadership.
And whether whether it's uh anunfaithfulness in a marriage or
a failure in behavior, you youneed to be very, very careful.
(31:45):
I think the the the preacherthat rang you and said, I can't
get into the pulpit, is showingan integrity that that's really
important.
You probably went immediately tohow do I cover this.
But you've you've you've got tothen work out how do we actually
help this person uh to deal withwhatever that problem, that
issue is.
Uh, now that it's been shared,it can't be left.
(32:08):
It you you need to keep movingand working with it together.
And um, that's where I thinkthat accountability,
transparency, uh having an opencalendar, an open diary, uh, and
a shared life is it's soimportant, it's vital.
SPEAKER_04 (32:24):
What should our response now be to his books?
To I mean, I'm thinking RaviZacharias's books, Roy Clemens'
books, um Philip Yancey's book.
You I mean, you've read it thisweekend, but but then I didn't
feel like reading it.
Yeah.
What do you think in terms ofwhat's your ongoing response
going to be towards his books?
SPEAKER_01 (32:45):
Well, I think trust has been broken.
And so I think it's reallydifficult uh to read those books
now uh and be able to trust uhthe person who wrote them.
Uh now the words that he wroteuh are still true, uh, and yet I
think personally I don't think Icould read them again.
SPEAKER_04 (33:05):
Yeah, not sitting, I mean you were reading them as a
critic the other day.
That's right.
But but not to sit under them asa student, which is the way I've
read them in the past.
That's right.
Yep.
SPEAKER_02 (33:17):
Yeah, you know, they're still some great
illustrations.
I just think back how I usedsome of those books and found
them very helpful.
Yeah.
And um, and you know, perhaps atthat point in his life there was
an integrity to his character,and he's fallen from that.
So, yeah, so I don't know.
That's it's a good question,Dominic.
(33:37):
I don't think I can think I needto reflect on.
SPEAKER_03 (33:39):
Chris, well, I think um all every author I've read is
uh apart from the Lord Jesus, uhand every preacher you've heard
is flawed.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And so I think that uh uh it'sit's really what they've written
uh is is helpful and useful, andyou probably should, but as
(34:00):
Veronica said, it's a questionof trust.
And uh you can only rebuild thattrust when you see the fruit of
repentance.
Um and unfortunately with thesefamous authors, uh well, Ravi
Zacharias is no longer alive, soit's impossible to see how he
may have changed.
It's with Philip Yancey, I Idoubt we'll ever hear from him
(34:22):
again publicly.
So it's hard to know how thatwill have an embassy.
SPEAKER_04 (34:26):
And if you did, and if you did, it would be a
carefully media managed moment.
SPEAKER_03 (34:29):
Yeah, so it's very it's very difficult to rebuild
that trust in in them.
Um I do remember when RoyClements' um books went on sale
at a very low price after uh itwas made public about$25 a
commentary to$2 a commentary.
That's right, that's right.
Um and so uh I I think I pickedup a few at that low price and
(34:52):
found a lot of what he wasexplaining from the scriptures
was very helpful, but I don'thave the opportunity to rebuild
trust because I I I don't know,I just don't know the man.
SPEAKER_04 (35:04):
I only know him as an author.
Well, I mean, what you readnowadays is that his trajectory
has continued.
SPEAKER_05 (35:10):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04 (35:11):
Um what about care?
I mean, the woman we spoke tomade the point about the
church's temptation is to, ifyou like, care for the
organization rather than carefor the vulnerable and care for
the weak one in that situation.
Um you're not in keeping.
SPEAKER_02 (35:30):
Right, we've just got to get alongside these
people and offer them whateversupport.
Just not abandon people intheir, you know, hour of real
need.
SPEAKER_01 (35:40):
I think it's important as well that we're not
just there in the short term,but that we see this as being
long-term support.
Uh, there's a lot of things thatyou need to do in the short
term.
As Chris mentioned, there's theall the uh triaging that we need
to do, and you know, what dothey need in that immediate
moment?
But this is a long-term umstruggle, and there's going to
(36:01):
be long-term repercussions, andthey need us uh to be there for
the long term uh in thosevarious stages of dealing with
it.
SPEAKER_04 (36:12):
Positive story on this.
Um, I remember going toWashington and Mark Deva was
showing me around, and we werestanding on the roof of Capitol
Baptist Church, and he said, Oh,we own those, I don't know, five
houses there.
And I said, Oh, who's in them?
And um, I was expecting him totell me about and he and he
said, actually, um, Roy Clemens'ex-wife is staying there at the
(36:34):
moment and um in one of them.
And uh I just said, Oh, that'slovely that um there's this
evangelical leader in the UKwho's fallen, and and yet the
wider Christian community hasgot behind and cared for and
loved um uh his wife in thatsituation.
I mean, there's a there's apositive story to balance that
(36:54):
negative one that we heardearlier.
Yeah.
So um, in terms of prevention,um, I mean, w you talked about
accountability, but I I I don'tthink accountability on its own
is the answer at all.
What what do we do?
SPEAKER_02 (37:11):
Have you heard of that 12 steps to an affair?
Have you heard of it?
SPEAKER_04 (37:15):
I have, but it's a long time ago.
So remind me.
SPEAKER_02 (37:17):
Okay, step one is the only one we need to be
really concerned about.
Readiness.
unknown (37:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Okay.
So there's something going on,an emotional readiness, uh, that
someone's sort of leaning out ofthe marriage and is looking for
something else.
And that readiness, we just gotto be alert to that.
And and I think you know howProverbs five to seven
particularly talks a lot aboutadultery and its danger.
(37:45):
And I think I think there's twothings that really come through
from that from that passage.
Um one is the the protection ofour heart.
You spoke about the heart,Chris, guarding the heart above
all else.
Um treasuring God's commands inyour heart.
Uh just just not allowing thatconscience to be seared, the
heart to be seared.
(38:06):
Um, but just that constant, theteacher constantly saying, you
know, keep my commands.
Um we've just got to have thatthat willingness to engage with
the word of God in a way that ittouches our heart deeply.
And then I think the other thingit talks about, it talks about
being uh speaking to the man, beintoxicated by your wife.
(38:28):
You know, it talks about themarriage and treasuring your
marriage and investing in yourmarriage and protecting and
guarding your marriage.
And I think that wordintoxicated, if the um my
Hebrew's gone, but but if the uhESV footnote is correct, it says
be led astray, let her lead youastray, or you know, uh
overwhelm you with um keep yourkeep your desire for her.
(38:54):
And I just I think anything wecan do to protect and work on
our marriages and and theimportance of emotional
connection, that sense ofsafety, that sense of deep um
this is the person who feeds,you know, feeds me.
The Lord feeds my soul, and thisperson feeds me emotionally um
(39:16):
as well.
Um so a blatant plug, we've gota marriage course.
Many people have found it veryhelpful.
And and I just think you willlink to it in the show notes
here.
Thank you, thank you.
Yeah, I just think somethinglike these, these are the things
we need.
We need that, and we just needthat spiritual investment, you
(39:37):
know, just keep working on ourrelationship with the Lord.
SPEAKER_04 (39:41):
Thanks so much for coming in and talking to us.
Our guests on the Pastor'sHeart, Chris Edwards, the Bishop
of North Sydney.
Veronica Hoyt, she's with thePriscilla and Aquila Centre at
Sydney's Moore TheologicalCollege, and Keith Condy, who
leads the mental health andpastoral care initiative of
Anglican Deaconess Ministries.
My name's Dominic Steele.
(40:02):
You've been with us on ThePastor's Heart, and we will look
forward to your company nextTuesday afternoon.
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