Mark Malkoff on Johnny Carson, & the Future of Late Night TV

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Welcome back time again for word Balloon, the
comic book conversation show John Centris Here. Mark Malkoff joins
me today on word Balloon. Now, Who's Mark Malcoff? You
might ask, I'm glad you did. For eight years, Mark
hosted the Carson Podcast, all about the legendary talk show
host Johnny Carson. He became fascinated by him as a
kid and did his best to chronicle the life and

(00:24):
times of this incredible broadcast host for NBC for twenty
nine years from nineteen sixty two to nineteen ninety three.
In addition to doing the Carson Podcast, Mark has currently
out on the road promoting his brand new book, Love
Johnny Carson, which features four hundred interviews chronicling the life
and times of the talk show host. You hear all

(00:46):
about his formative years in Nebraska, his years in New
York hosting The Tonight Show there, then moving the show
to Burbank, California for its remaining years, and also the
subsequent years after retirement.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
What did Johnny?

Speaker 1 (01:00):
He was not a recluse, says You'll hear Mark explain
lots of great stories, rally lots of interesting insight as
well and couldn't help it. But you know, Mark is
also doing a great show called Inside Late Night Now
where he continues to do interviews with people involved with
late night television, so I had to ask him about
the current environment of late night television and its possible future.

(01:22):
We know Colbert's days are numbered. Kimmel did re up
for another year, but only a year, which I think
is suspect. We'll see what CBS does to replace Colbert.
Fallon continues, but we'll see. I really think we're on
the last legs of weeknight late night television. We also
talked a little bit about SNL as well, but it

(01:43):
was great to get Mark's perspective and I really enjoyed
this conversation Mark Malkoff talking about the life and times
of Johnny Carson and the history and future of late
night TV on today's word Balloon. Word Balloon is brought
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Speaker 2 (03:15):
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Speaker 1 (03:40):
Mark Malcoff, Welcome to word Balloon again. It's great to
you coming back, man, and congratulations. I mean, I respected
everything you did with the Carson Podcast, but now you've
got this fabulous book.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Love Johnny Carson, thank you so much for having me Backy,
It's good to see you.

Speaker 4 (03:56):
It is one of those things.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
When I started the Carson Podcast talkingpo about Johnny Carson,
I thought maybe if I get ten episodes, that might be.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
The top number.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
But it didn't foresee it going eight years and talking
it for the podcast and the book over four hundred people.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
It never occurred to me.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
And really, the level and depth of your research and
knowledge of Johnny beyond the show is amazing, and my
favorite parts are obviously the parts I didn't know about it.
I mean, I told you man, I started watching in
the early seventies. I have vague memories of it still
being in New York and when they made it, well

(04:36):
I'm old, Well I'm home. But truly, everything you know,
from his birth to everything he did in media before
the Tonight Show is fascinating to me, you know, and
I mean, you know, starting in radio and also those
weird like he had his independent show Forgive Me because
you know, I got to show that. You know, you
and I could talk about he of the local shows

(04:59):
and everything, but then all those game shows, and it's
been fun watching Buzzer and seeing pre Tonight Show Johnny
Carson on to Tell the Truth and stuff like that.
Talk about that pre Tonight show years for.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Yeah, he was doing a game show called Earn Your Vacation.
He did Carson Seller. He had a five minute show
in the morning called Carson's Coffee Break, and He's like,
next year, they might give me six minutes. So yeah,
he started local in Los Angeles, and before that, for
a couple of years he was at WOW in Omaha, Nebraska,

(05:30):
and yeah.

Speaker 4 (05:31):
He got out of that, went to college.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Yeah, got out of the Navy, went to college, and
then went right into radio and very ambitious for him
to move his his family to Los Angeles. His goal
was within one year to get his own show similar
to what he had at Wow. He had The Squirrel's Nest,
which was a TV show kind of like The Tonight Show.
And his goal was within one year and he was
able to achieve that locally.

Speaker 4 (05:54):
And you know, even though he was.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Local, he still had huge fans like Red Skelton and
Jack Betty and all these people watching him. So it
was the perfect place for him to be in develop
when he got his big, big break when he substituted
for Red Skelton when Skelton injured and got a concussion,
and Skelton is he's being carried off in the ambulance
that there's only one man who can take my place.
And they had like two hours and it was Johnny,

(06:17):
and Johnny was he was ready. I mean, he had
been performing since he was fourteen, and he did it
effortlessly and that was his big break.

Speaker 2 (06:24):
You know, I love the fact too that.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, even before he became a broadcaster, he was an
amateur musician and not a professional musician or magician at
a young age. He's also a great musician, but brilliant
all the slight of hand stuff, the great CARSONI that's
really cool.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Yeah, he loved the magic.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
When he turns seventeen, he graduated high school and he
hitchhiked to Los Angeles and the Yeah, he would go
and watch He watched orson Wells do magic tricks, and yeah,
he snuck into the USO shows he did. He listed
in the Navy but wasn't fully in the Navy, so yeah,
he snuck in. He got a uniform a fit that
wasn't supposed to do that, and he got in trouble

(07:01):
and got arrested. But it was definitely very impactful to
go at to Los Angeles. He went to Jack Benny's home.
He got like a star map and waited for Benny
to come out, who didn't. But yeah, the magic was definitely.
I think the catalyst started when he was like thirteen
or fourteen.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
I was watching last night a couple of clips and
I caught him doing the card tricks with Angie Dickinson
that one episode and doing the fan and the big
wave you know kind of shuffle and everything. It's uh yeah,
he and also it was very adorable when he had
the little kid, the Spelling Beat kid, and he popped
the quarter out of the kids.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Here the kid was freaking out.

Speaker 4 (07:34):
Which is that really was?

Speaker 3 (07:35):
That's one of my favorite clips, I think because I
really shows Carson's talent in terms of how quick he
was and how good he was. That there's certain hosts
that are okay talking to actors, there's certain hosts that
are better talking to regular people. He could talk to
anybody and make them feel comfortable, make them look good,
and bring the best out of people. But that clip
that you're mentioning is one of my favorites, the Spelling

(07:58):
Beat Trip Champion.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Later, I want to talk about where late night is,
and of course your podcast, your current podcast late Night.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yeah sure, yeah, it's inside late Night on Late Night
or we talked to people from all over the different
late night shows past and present.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
You're doing a hell of a job, man, and you're
a really a great interviewer. Now you know what you're doing, man,
and you make it very conversational. Clearly, the people relax
when they talk to you, and you get great.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Stuff back to Carson.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, I love the New York stuff because again, I
have very vague memories of like maybe the final year
early early seventies and you know, before he made the
jump permanently to LA But I am fascinated by that
period because it was a different vibe of guests.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
When you say it really wise, I mean you had
Broadway because it's New York and they can't really do
that in LA as much. And they had intellectuals like
Jimmy Breslin and definitely a lot more authors. And it
was at this small studios, like maybe two hundred and
forty people something like that versus four hundred and sixty.
So it was just a more intimate, i'd say, more

(09:03):
relaxed show. But when they would a couple times a
year go to Los Angeles during trips, the shows would
go off the rails, Like the first time they went
out to LA in sixty nineteen sixty four, Johnny had
this idea. He said, we're gonna have champagne for all
the guests. This is gonna be great. We're gonna treat
them really well. And Marlon Brando was on. It was
a huge coup for some a Brando to be doing
the Tonight Show and he back then now they put

(09:26):
the most famous guest on first, but back then they
would put them on last to make sure the viewers
would tune in. So Brando comes on last and he's
been drinking champagne for ninety minutes and it doesn't go
well and he has wasted out.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
Of his mind. And back in a couple.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Of years later in nineteen sixty eight, Brando and Johnny
were reminiscing and Brando's like, yeah, it was completely gone.
But when they did go out to La it did
seem like things like that would happen, that be more drinking,
more relaxed, and just complete anarchy. But the first ten years,
as you know, most of that was a race by NBC.
So I really did make it my mission with the

(10:01):
book and the podcast to try to come up with
as much information as I could and fill in the blanks,
talking to somebody like mel Brooks, who was on Johnny's
first show October first, nineteen sixty two, what's going on
backstage before the show, what's going on during the show,
and try to fill those things. And we did that
in the book, So I'm very happy about that.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Again, incredibly extensive, and I love that you're going chronologically
and pull from these various anecdotes everybody from the top
echelon of entertainment to one of our favorites, the guy
who pulled the curtain for Johnny every night.

Speaker 4 (10:33):
That's right, Irving Davis. Yeah, I always wondered.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
I remember as a little kid asking my dad who
helped the kurtain open for Johnny? And I just wanted
to know what was going on because now I know
that they're certain late night hosts like Letterman. You know,
he wouldn't want anyone to talk to him. He needs silence,
and everybody has their different process. But Johnny would be
back there telling jokes, smoking, just hanging out casually before

(10:56):
the show. And then he would just go out in
front of you know, millions of people watching him at
night and just be so relaxed in control.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
And yeah, he was such a master.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Again, You've got so many great, extensive stories about every
era of Carson. Have you really looked at like an athlete?
Would you can you quantify what Carson's prime was? Would
you say his prime years would be.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
I'd probably say late sixties through the seventies. I think,
look when the show is ninety minutes and he had
the energy to sustain it, I think and hour forty
five they started, and that was rough for him, five
days a week and he had to fight to get
more vacation. But I think the probably the sevenies hold up,
I would say the best. But he would pace himself

(11:44):
like an athlete every show day, Like he wouldn't have
lunch with people during a show that he'd be working.
The moment he got up, he'd be focused on the show,
but he wouldn't be at the office all day like
Jay Leno or Letterman, because he thought that would take up,
really use up a lot of his energy. And he
it so fiercely that that's one of the reasons he
didn't want to see the guest normally before the show

(12:05):
and keep it fresh and during the commercials why he
didn't normally talk to the guest. He was saving his energy.
Some people might look at that as being cold in
a loop, but he knew how much energy that that
took to do that show. And I think Gary Shanlin
was the one that was saying, nobody knows how exhausting
doing that show is it, And I mean it was people.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
That have tried that. We'll call it murder.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
I mean it's it's relentless and that's why a lot
of famous people that have been offered those shows will
not take them.

Speaker 4 (12:32):
I mean, it just takes over your life.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, Neil Patrick Harris, Everyone's like, oh, d you'd be amazing,
and he's like, no, thank you, no way. Yeah, I
mean no, it sucks your energy. You have to be
you have to be built for it.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Mark.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I mean, honestly, I had thirty years in broadcasting and
just radio, but even just doing a four hour a
day show, whether I was playing music or zero straight
sports talk, it's a grind.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
And somebody like Joan Rivers was great every five weeks.
But you know, famously she went competed against Johnny opposite
him on Fox. And if miss Rivers would have gone
to him and said I have this opportunity, Johnny would
have blessed and said you have my blessing. But he
would have warned her that he believed her style would
not work every single night and the guest would not

(13:20):
be showing up every She was making all these Elizabeth
Taylor fat jokes and would make fun of the celebs,
and it's like that style just at least back then,
he did not think you could do that every night,
and he was right. The ratings just they started out
really high and they sunk. And after ten months, Barry
Diller went to her husband, who was the producer, and said,

(13:41):
you're fired. And Joan said, if you fire him, I'm leaving.
And Barry Diller said you're fired. Joan thought he was bluffing,
and then that was it for Joan. Unfortunately, it's really sad,
but I think she was great every five weeks. But
to do what night after night after night is not
everyone can do.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
That, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
You know, I'm fascinated by the late night format. And again,
growing up when I did, I saw these successes in
failures Thick.

Speaker 2 (14:10):
Of the Night, Joan.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
I had forgotten until your book about David Brenner briefly
having a late night show. Of course, it in famously
Chevy Chase and again we're, oh, yeah, it'll be great.
Oh oh, you're just talking to people. How does that really?

Speaker 2 (14:24):
God? Damn.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
Yeah. Brenner went back on with Carson very shortly after
a show was canceled and said, nobody should ever try
to host a late night show. He's like, it's the
hardest thing I've ever done, And Johnny said, it's murder
and then Chevy guest hosted once for Johnny Carson in
nineteen eighty six and had a really tough time. A
month later, goes on with Johnny Carson and said, I
didn't know how hard this was. It was one of

(14:45):
the hardest things I ever had to do. No one
will ever be the next Johnny Carson. And I guess
mister Chase forgot how hard it was because a few
years later, in nineteen ninety three, he takes the gig
and I know that they gave him a lot of money,
but I mean, oh gosh, they famously only gave him
like twenty six episodes or something like that.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Well, and also that first impression matters back to Carson
in sixty two, it took a while for Johnny to
catch on having to follow Jack Parr and am I
right that of all people? And again, this may be
a name that younger people might know, but they're like,
you know, maybe we should go with Merv Griffin instead.
And yeah, Murv was kind of a rival back in
the early sixties.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
He was here's a bigger name.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
It's really tough I think for the public to see
that the perception of Johnny Carson was a game show host,
and once the public sees you with something, it's tough.
There's a lot of times it's an adjustment that has
to take place.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
And people were used.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
To Jock Part eleven thirty being very eleven fifteen being
very controversial, wee be and emotional, and Johnny Carson thought
the show should just be an entertainment show and no
manufacturer controversy of it organically happens, that's fine, and he
got criticized for being bland and dull early on, and
it just took Carson, I think, a while for the

(16:03):
public to realize and it didn't take that long, but
there was definitely an adjustment that took place for the
people to accept him. The same thing happened to Conan O'Brien,
but that was like almost two years of him really
figured in out the show.

Speaker 4 (16:16):
But anybody that's new, it's that.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
It's really it's it's going to take at least a
little bit of time.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Conan and I have the same agent.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Those first couple of years, I didn't like it, and
he really had grown, but his his integrity and his
sincerity and just and I had the opportunity to meet
him when I was covering boxing at Madison Square Garden
one night, had a nice conversation with him. No, he's
great and truly the way he handled the whole Leno
Tonight's show things documented in Bill Carter's excellent book. I mean, class, guy, man,

(16:48):
just class.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
It was so great. You got to Kennedy hon her
before our currency.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
It's unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, I was going to the show early on when
they couldn't fill this studio. It was only one hundred
and ninety some seeds and they couldn't even fill it.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
They tried.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
The NBC pages would be out on the street begging
people to come to the show, and it was getting
I think renewed every thirteen weeks or twelve weeks, and
Gary Shanling said no, Dana Carvey Rosie O'donnald, Greg Kennear.
They're trying to give it to anybody, and no one
wanted it. I mean, it was kind of like the
same thing, like who's going to replace David Letterman. This
is like nobody can fill these shoes. And Conan persevered

(17:22):
and it was really exciting to see him. You know,
Johnny gave him the best advice, which was like you
have to leading up to that.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Johnny was honored at the Plaza Hotel.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
They had a luncheon for I think was the communication
dinner and luncheon rather, And he told Conan, he said,
the only way it's gonna work is if you're yourself
and you tell the truth. And you know, the media
made Carson out to be this guy that they say
cold and a lou of no friends. But everybody that
I consistently talked to him, I've said this in some interviews.

(17:51):
The people that knew him the best told me that
he was almost the same person on and off camera.
The people but these are the people that knew him
very well for years, and he felt comfort.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
It was a small circle of people.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
But I don't think you can go out there and
not be yourself and fold the American public for thirty
years like that. I mean, definitely, Carson had was a
shy person, so when he's not doing the show, and
just for self preservation, he couldn't have that energy all
the time, just go to waste. And you know, people
were trying to get to him. You had threats in
his life, so he had to be careful with that

(18:22):
and stuff. But I really do believe that he was
that was him out there. I mean one of his
wives said that a bunch of people that were friends
with him maybe a little less gregarious, but he was
himself and there's no other way that would have worked
without it.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Well, and also there's that.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Expectation from the audience that, well, he's in my bedroom
or living room every night. So if there's almost a
subconscious like, well, Johnny knows me. I see him every
night and he knew him. And again, to have that
kind of pressure as the entertainer I and especially doing
it in New York those first ten years when, as
you know, everybody's on top of each other in Manhattan.

Speaker 4 (18:59):
Yeah, yea. New York was tricky.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Like it got a little bit better in Los Angeles.
But when he would go out to a restaurant in
New York, people would sit down at this table like
they uninvited. People were constantly sending drinks over to him,
and he felt like he had to take a sip
and say thank you for that. But people would grab
him by the arm and you know they felt like, oh,
come here, meet my husband, meet my wife, and yeah,
you're right, they're going to bed with this guy. They

(19:22):
feel like, this is our friend, we know him, and
Johnny just couldn't get any peace. So when he's in
Los Angeles, he's it's a lot easier. He's driving around.
It's a little bit they I think famous people maybe
are left alone a little bit more out there possibly,
but yeah, it was definitely. The security thing was tough
even at NBC people back then, the security. It's amazing

(19:44):
to hear the stories back in the sixties and early seventies,
like people would just get by like they it seems
like they would let anybody buy and people would just
be Carson would just be up on in the studio
floor outside the studio when Dick Cavitt remembers having to
like shoe people away, tourists that just got past security
that were just hanging out. So Johnny, it was hard
for Carson to get any piece.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
You know, Cavot is such an interesting guy that you've
had a pleasure of interviewing, and he's in the book,
he's in your podcast interviews, and really had a perception.
It's funny you say that because Caviot, of course, getting
his big break was him walking into NBC unannounced.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
That that's right.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
I've got something for Jack Parr and then he became
a Jack bar writer because he wrote up good jokes.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Yeah, it's unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (20:23):
And then nineteen sixty four he wrote for Carson for
about two years and yeah, I'm really glad. I was
like Dick Cavot, I heard from his wife Martha really
like the book, and I was, that's great, just to
kind of show there's a really touching thing when stan
Laurel passed away the day that stan Laurel and Cavot
had not known Laurel and Johnny had been on the
phone with stan Laurel a couple of times in the

(20:44):
hospital and a Cavot remembers just going into Johnny's office
to drop off jokes and Johnny had tears in his
eyes and he's like, you've heard and they kind of
bonded over that. But Cavot was just really super just
to hear that story. I mean, Cavit's told it before.
But when Kaviak was like twelve years old being in
Nebraska going to the Magic show and it's the local

(21:05):
Johnny Carson, this is the guy that's on the radio
and getting to meet Carson from that young age and
Carson then during the show introducing the twelve year old
Cavet and his two magician friends in the audience, and
Cavotte and his diary writing, this was the greatest day
of my life.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
I met Johnny Carson.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
And I love when Cabot or when Carson would tease
Cavot because he had his start and stops over his
great talk show career himself. Yeah, and that great line
of well I got I guess it's Armed Forces radio
for you, now, Richard, Isn't that right?

Speaker 2 (21:35):
You know that look?

Speaker 4 (21:37):
You know, yeah, he did know.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
There's definitely something paternal, something of uncular about it. And yeah,
Cavot was just a really good recall and was always
wonderful on the show. One of the big traits that
I had I got to do and I know you're
going to be talking with him sometime soon, is Dan Pasternak.
And for my one hundredth episode, I think it was
the one hundredth episode of the Carson podcast, we had

(22:01):
Dick havevit back, and after we were taping, we were
showing him kenniscopes of when he was on with Carson
in like nineteen sixty five, sixty six, and Kavit just
was like, couldn't believe it.

Speaker 4 (22:11):
I showed him guest hosting for Johnny and Cavot.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
I think he called his assistant it's like, cancel everything
for the rest of the night and just stayed with
us for hours. But it was just to watch his
face watching these old clips that we were able to
find was unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
You know, the archive is really interesting, and JEFF'SASIG is
I know, the head of if it's so called Carson
Productions and stuff, and I know too from a broadcast standpoint,
you can get access, but it is and it's a
shame that whatever does survive, is it more available to
the public.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Have you talked to Jeff about that at all?

Speaker 3 (22:47):
I love Jeff has been really nice to me and
he's helped me. The thing with Carson Entertainment Group, it's
really really hard to license to do all the clearance
is necessary to broadcast some of the clips. The first
thing that you'll notice on Antenna TV or some of
the others when they do the episodes is the first
thing they go over the musical guest. You're not going
to see that. It's the most expensive residuals. And unfortunately

(23:10):
they have decided that they can't do that. So I
know that in the last like six months or seven months,
I believe that they cleared one hundred more shows to show,
so I I mean, I've asked Jeff why they can't
do anything with the guest host collection, because, like, to me,
that's one of the most fascinating things because you have

(23:30):
everyone from Kirk Douglas to Orson Wells, to Arnold Palmer
to Joe Namath guest host in the show.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah for christ Yeah Live Man or you know, at Home.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
But that was where Peter less Sally's idea.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Peter les Sally said, I want Kermit, and NBC thought
it would be too complicated, and Peter really championed it.
And yeah, it was one of those things when people
tuned in, it could be Diana Ross guest hosting The
Tonight Show or Roy Clark. But it was really fun
for I think America just to tune in and see
who that would be. I mean, they always wanted Johnny,
but it was definitely interesting the number of people that

(24:06):
you would not be expecting. You wouldn't expect like a
Lord and Green from Bonanza to host the Tonight Show.

Speaker 1 (24:12):
So I don't remember that I do remember a couple
of good Steve Martin hosting moments, which was really cool
to see. Yes again, maybe not five days a week forever,
but you know, to pop in and actually be as
effective as he was.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
I was pretty impressed.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, I know, he was phenomenal. Some people really could
do it.

Speaker 3 (24:27):
There were other comedians like Charles Nelson Riley that had
a really tough time with it.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
But then there were people like the best.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
I think the probably some of the best, but like McLean, Stevenson,
Richard Dawson was really good at it. Yeah, it was
definitely a skill set that not everyone could do.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Cosby was hit and miss, and I remember a couple
of bomb nuts. I remember one night and Mark again,
I'm so glad that you're, you know, researching the guests
because it is interesting in contrast, and we get a
sense of it in the book as well. I remember
one night where Cosby's monologue really bombed and he said, no,
they're gonna flash the employe, and I don't want you
to applaud. Let's go right to a commercial. And literally

(25:03):
his last words were, let's show that something wrong happened,
and they faded out and went into the commercial, and
I have that kind.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
Of Cosby was really tough because Peter less Atte told
me that you never knew with Cosby because he didn't
put do any preparation or very little. He was either
brilliant or he bombed, and you never know what it
was gonna be. So I mean, if he was doing
that when he was guest hosting, if he didn't do well,

(25:32):
maybe sometimes it only made Johnny look good. But there
were like six or seven years where Johnny didn't put
Cosby on just because he wouldn't prepare, and you never
knew what you were gonna get. But what's Cosby kind
of like became the face of the network. They started
putting him on. But even Cosby's final appearance on Carson,
I think that was like, yeah, it was the last one.

(25:53):
That would have been probably May or April of ninety two.
Johnny had asked Bill Cosby to do his Noah routine
stand up and Cosby does maybe ten or fifteen seconds
of it something like that, and it's like I forget
the rest, and Johnny's like, you could have prepared and again, wow,
does not prepare so very little prep So yeah, you
could tell Carson wasn't happy about that, but it's you

(26:15):
know at that point, I mean Cosby was h yeah,
the face of the network and was kind of royal
TV royalty.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
So one of the tragedies of that you cover in
your book is Freddy Prince, Freddy Prince Senior, who was
a great comic. I had the album and everything, and
you'll forgive me, but Tony Orlando came to our sports
station and we had we had the album of Looking
Good his stand Ubu because it was recorded in Chicago.

(26:43):
Actually it was got in Columbia and he's like, can
I have this? And we gave it to him and
he was so filled and he told us about that
night that he hosted the Tonight Show and you know
he and he's like, you know, he was like ten
years old. He was like an older brother to Prince,
the way Carson was the cabinet. And he's like, hey man,
you know you're twenty or whatever, nineteen and he's like

(27:03):
can you handle He's like, I got this, don't worry
about it, and I you know, to as a safety.
Bob Hope was one of the guests along with Tony,
and I guess at one point this is Tony's.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Story, but he's like, how old is this kid? And
he's like nineteen. He's like, god, damn, this is a
talented kid. So you get did you ever talk to
Tony about it?

Speaker 4 (27:20):
I met him once, but I never got to talk
to him about it. I would have loved it. Yeah,
the whole Freddy Prince thing.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
I thought it was important in the book to kind
of put things that people believe that we're just not true.
Like Freddy Prince's rise was unbelievable, but he did not
get a sitcom overnight and NBC did not even want him.
So he goes on. He went on the Jack Pars
Sunday Show, did very well. Yet he sent that tape
into Carson's talent coordinator and then a few months later,

(27:49):
Freddy Prince made his debut on Carson and it was
like a week or two later. It was the producer
of Chico and the man had heard of Freddy Prince. Yeah,
I saw the video tapings, like, oh my goodness, this
guy is amazing. Let's audition him. And then NBC didn't
want him. I mean he was completely untested, he was new,
and he really thought for him, and everything did happen quickly,

(28:12):
within six months, Chico and the Man premieres and it's
the number one show or like in the top three,
So it happened very quickly. But the whole thing where
people are like overnight, it just it's simply it's a
good story for.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
People to think that and to say it.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
But I want to kind of debunk that type of
thing because it really that did not happen.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
True.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
But as far as comedians going on the Tonight's show,
as you well document from dozens, if not hundreds, that
it really was life changing. And again we got to
remember it was three channel or five channel world that
even you and I grew up in, you know, it.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Was there were only fifteen people to my knowledge that
were called over in thirty years to the Couch. So yeah,
I mean there were definitely people that were not called over,
like Roseanne that got it comes. I mean, I look
at nineteen ninety one, it was Carson's last year and
it was within like three weeks it was an unknown Drew, Carrie,
Ray Romano, and George Lopez, and they all wound up

(29:10):
with their own sitcoms. So it was one of those
things you never knew. I mean, Seinfeld I don't think
it was called over for five four or five times.
It took him a while to get called over. I
just would keep doing stand ups, so you just never knew.
I mean, there are people that I talked with the
Tonight Show to this day that still believed the only
reason Freddy Prince was called over is because Sammy Davis

(29:30):
was laughing so loud and the audience saw Sammy laughing
and they ended up kind of like infectious laughter. But
I thought Freddy Prince was great, and I mean his
debut was as strong as his anybody's.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think, well, again, your extensive research for not having
been able to because you were too young to go
see Carson Burbank, dude, and I'm forty three years ago.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
How you doing? Everybody?

Speaker 1 (29:56):
You know, I was seventeen times older eighteen, and I
saw the show. I told you, and uh and and
and you mentioned Sipho. That's the reason why I bring
it up. I kind of think his segment might have
been taped and he wasn't actually physically there because it
was Victoria Principal and Charles Groden, and I think Roden,
in his usual fantastic way on the couch, would just

(30:17):
improve that wonderful animosity towards Carson, which was and he
carried on to with Letterman and others and stuff. But yeah,
but you know again, but it was great to watch
everything that happened, and like you said, the fact that no,
if anything, Johnny was smoking between the second and stuff
and not talking to the the other people and stuff
and that and that canned open that McMahon would perform.

(30:41):
And again I saw live ball was new to me,
you know whatever, But just every and then Doc would
do a cool the band would do this great jazz
piece and stuff.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
It was. It was so great. I'm really better that
I got to experience.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Oh, it's unbelievable now, the power of that show and
just to be there alive and McMahon. Ed. McMahon basically
did the same type of warm up for thirty years
and it worked. Jeff Sutteg said it was so bad,
it was good, and yeah, people were really excited for
d to be there, and Ed at least like the
last bunches of years, would always say in the warm
up when Johnny was going to be there that night,

(31:13):
and he's like, and I.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
Have good news for you.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
The person whose name appears that appears in the title
of the show, is actually going to host his own show.
Johnny would kind of roll his eyes back, but he
knew that you know that he was.

Speaker 4 (31:26):
It was kind of true at that point three days
a week.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well, also that relationship is fascinating and how I think
it was closer in New York than it was in
LA And I mean, and of course your your book
is great because there really is warts and all. I mean,
you really do talk about Johnny's demons. He had a
drinking issue. He's smoking. Obviously in a fasima cost him

(31:50):
his life. But that guy ed was around a lot
of times in New York when it was one drink
too many and did save.

Speaker 4 (31:57):
The thing that I did feel good about.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
With a lot of the things that I did bring
up that maybe are not pleasant with Carson is he
would talk about this on the Tonight Show as his struggles.
So it wasn't a secret like he would talk about
that he was not a good drinker, that he would
instead of being like some people when they drink at
very loving he would Carson said he would want to
fight everybody. He said it was just one more to drink,

(32:19):
one more drink than I should have had, and he
said he turned him into Attila the haun. He talked
about his problems with being overly competitive, and he would
talk about about Ed, you know, like saving him a
couple of times back in New York just to make
sure that he would get home. But yeah, McMahon was
they needed each other. They were so good together in

(32:40):
their chemistry. I mean, there were a couple of times
McMahon overstepped his bounds and got reprimanded, but for the
most part, if they started out as as really close friends,
I know that like Johnny took the train from New
York down to Pennsylvania with Ed a couple times when
he was have a marital problems, but by the time
they got to New York, I think that the relationship
would run its course. So they'd get together for anniversaries,

(33:03):
usually the anniversary.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
Of who Do You Trust?

Speaker 3 (33:04):
And maybe birthday, so they get together a couple of
times a year, but they had different social surtfis. I
think like Ed would have really liked to have been
closer to Johnny, but you know, it's what it is.
And Ed before every episode would go into Johnny's dressing
in for a minute or two and they would chat.
So they had a relationship. It just it kind of
became something a little bit different over.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, a little more distant or whatever is as year's
went well, and you know, Johnny, because of his wives,
apparently found himself in a strata of celebrity that he
kind of leapt. And I mean the wives are fascinating,
all of them. Yeah, I want to ask about Jody,
the first wife. I did you ever have an opportunity

(33:46):
or had she passed before you started doing your stuff?

Speaker 3 (33:48):
To my knowledge, she's still alive. I've never seen it
a bit. I was doing research online and to my knowledge,
he's still around. You'd be ninety nine or one hundred.
I never talked to her. I talked to wife number
two briefly on the phone, talked to WAFE three and
we emailed back and forth.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
But yeah, the wives were very interesting.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
I mean wife number two, especially Joanne, was the architect
of the tonight show.

Speaker 4 (34:11):
I mean Johnny turned it down.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
She's the one that told him you were going to
do this, that gave him the confidence to do it.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
She's the one that.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
Brought in Fred de Cordova. I mean she was firing
and hiring people. Peterle Sally told me nobody knew how
powerful Joanne was behind the scenes.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
Johnny had no idea.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
I mean, Joanne's the one that contacted NBC without Johnny's
knowledge and said, come to the Friars Roast of Gary
mar Moore, my husband Johnny is going to be performing,
and set the whole thing in motion. I mean she
was really dynamic. I mean she was a cheerleader. She
was in the front row for months when Johnny was
started at the Tonight Show. She was the one also

(34:48):
that said when he was getting all this big money
offers to play Vegas, he was too nervous to do
it and he didn't have an act, and She's like,
we're going to do this together. In nineteen sixty four,
they worked on the act together and it broke Judy
Garland's attendance record.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
I mean it was like it was unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (35:04):
But I don't think Joanne personally gets enough credit for
the Tonight Show.

Speaker 4 (35:09):
I don't think. I don't think there's any way it
would have happened without her.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
And Joanna wife three well, first of all, and I'm
so glad you cover this because I had heard about infidelity.
Joanne was was with another guy and Johnny bust In
and and and I mean this crazy story. Read the book.
You will be amazed at this story. It's one of
the one of the great stories. But then so just
as Joanne was so important at getting him the Tonight Show,

(35:35):
it seemed like Joanna was the connection to the Gregory
Pecks and and the the Hollywood world of celebrity.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
It was definitely more social like Carson. I can't imagine
him ever going to you know, really go into as
many parties. I mean, he was just kind of retreat
in the corner and do magic tricks and just it
was really tough. But she was she loved being social.
He was an introvert. She was more of an extrovert.
She would do a lot of charity work and Carson

(36:03):
would have to entertain and do things. And I think
there were good things about that. Like the one thing
that he did love, and it took a little bit
of convincing was going over to Europe, and Johnny fell
in love with it. I mean it was he liked
it to an extent. You know, he could walk around anonymous.
People weren't watching the show. Once he started hosting the

(36:23):
Oscars and it went global. It was a little different,
but he loved being able to walk around unbothered and
he would be hanging out in France with Roger Moore,
He'd be going to parties with Michael Caine in England.
He loved Wimbledon, so he was up and about and
he really that became an annual thing, almost annual, and
he just loved his tennis. He left going to the

(36:44):
Jazz festival Buddy Rich and niece, so that was definitely
Joanna's influence.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
And again but I'm.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Glad you mentioned jazz because you know, amateur drummer. I
don't know if you ever drummed professionally, but certainly was incredible.
I remember that sixty Minutes episode we see him, that's right.
I remember seeing him and Buddy Rich screwing around on
the Tonight showIn clips and ed O'Shaughnessy is on Tonight
Show drummer and everything. But yeah, and I you know,
again we're rocking roll kids, but it was. You know,

(37:12):
it's interesting, I'd forgotten and you document. I have to
say I always was under the assumption that there weren't
a lot of top forty performers on The Tonight Show,
and there were for a time. Maybe as I got older,
it was less and less describe that for me.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
A lot of it was it depended like they were
like the Beach Boys, there were top forty people. A
lot of the more hard rock would have been with
guest hosts, like a Jimmy Hendrix would have been with
a guest host I think Flip Wilson. It really dependent,
Like Johnny really loved the big band stuff, but would
he would occasionally he would put just as like a

(37:48):
one off, like someone like an Alice Cooper or Zzy
Top made their network television debut and.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
That was like a big thing for Zzy Top.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
It sold like thirty million records.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Johnny hosted that though, when You're saying yes.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
And he did it on purpose just for the visual
so he could go he could have the beard, the
z Eazy Top beer.

Speaker 4 (38:06):
So once once in a while they would go that route.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
But yeah, for the most part, it was Tony Bennett,
Joe Williams.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
That was his extent.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
I mean, he really did like put in occasionally like
somebody like a James Brown or Tina Turner and Ike Turner.
But he definitely believed people are going to bed at
eleven thirty. They don't want really exciting music. So that's
why I talk about it in the book. Billy Preston
gets the standing ovation and people are on their feet
for him as he's playing his two songs and anywhere

(38:36):
else that would be a coup in there, like we
want him back next week. But Johnny was upset because
he's like, the people at home that are trying to
go to sleep are now not going to be able
to go to sleep. And Preston was never allowed back
on with Johnny. He was allowed to do with guest hosts,
but Johnny firmly believed that you just can't do that.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
It is interesting the various celebrities that for whatever reason,
I mean, he had his feuds and and some self
imposed like the Wayne Newton thing, and again g.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Yeah, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
And it's fascinating the Joan Rivers thing. My god, you
do such a great job. And I'm fascinated by her trajectory.
And I mean she did rightfully say at least that
she did all it all. The Carson Carson's the one
that really pulled her out of obscurity, and just that
turn from the Fox years till the end.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
And yea, because she had she never let go.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
It's tough.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
I mean, she would definitely compliment Carson and being the
greatest straight man ever in her career. And I mean
she had gone on Jack part and did nothing for
her career. She goes on and I think it was
sixty five with Carson, and you know, very quickly, the
newspaper column is Walter Winshell. They're all like the new
Carol Brunette, and she's heralded it and was back with
Carson within like a week or two, and her life changed,

(39:50):
and it was unbelievable. And Johnny made her the permanent
guest host, the first person ever to be the permanent
guest host, and she had within a year, she broke
broke Frank Sinatra's record with getting paid in Vegas. Atlantic
City was like residency. She's set a record. And that's
only because she was permanent guest host. I mean that
that visibility, the same thing happened when Leno took over

(40:12):
per Minute. Your money goes up skyrockets with that visibility.
And famously she she got her own show on Fox
and didn't tell Johnny Barry Diller told me to my
face in New York. He said, I told Joan, you
owe it to Johnny to tell him you were gonna
go opposite. You know, Barry Diller was in a poker
game with Johnny and they were friends, and Miss Rivers

(40:33):
told Barry Diller and other people, I can't tell Johnny.
They're going to be unforeseen circumstances and her River's own
friends that Johnny's gonna be furious with you.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
You need to tell him. And obviously she didn't.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
Johnny found out from NBC President Brandon Tartakoff, and that
was just devastating.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
Carson couldn't even believe that.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
But then when Joan tried to take his Johnny's producer
Peter le Sally, every talent coordinator, all five were offered
double their salary.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Trying to poach the staff.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Johnny just thought that that was just terrible and just
never really got over it.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
And yeah, what a coup you had.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
And the few that have talked to Peter le Sally
at length, because that guy even before, as you know,
even before Carson Walking Broadcast History with Arthur Godfrey, the
same with the coort of a Walking Broadcast History with
Burns and Allen and Jack Benny.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Yeah, it's really true.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
And it's like tough with Peter because him and Joan Rivers,
like their families would go on vacation together, and it
was just I don't know what miss Rivers was thinking, Like, well,
I do know. What I think she was thinking was
that she was trying to be subservient to her husband,
Edgar Rosenberg, who wanted to be a big time producer,
and I think he was that he was just not
good for her for many reasons that the friends have

(41:46):
said professionally, and I think.

Speaker 4 (41:48):
That was a big reason. Yeah, r And I think
that's a big reason.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
And what a pall over, not only obviously Joan, to
poor Melissa as well.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
It's unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
And then Miss Rivers found out she was in millions
in debt, and just the fact that she was able
to reinvent herself and be that resilient, unbelievable comedy icon
for sure, But the way that she would tell the
story about Johnny is just ridiculous. Though in my opinion,
she would just say, you know, I didn't do it.
I couldn't tell Johnny. You could have told Johnny, And

(42:16):
then she said like the first call I made was
to Johnny, but yet after he found out, you knew
we found out. So yeah, there was a lot more
to it, and she doesn't like to talk about the fact.
She did admit that she did try to take Peter
less aally, but she didn't like to to kind of
talk about that part. She left that part out that
she tried to take the staff out with with her.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
It's been interesting hearing people talk to Leno as well.
And I loved Leno's strategy. I guess when you know
there were other candidates potentially to be the permanent guest
host and Brillstein tell the story about how Brilstein's clients
and the economics.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
Jay talked to me for fifteen minutes. I don't think
he wanted to. He said he was going to talk
to me for the podcast. He ghosted me. We talked
on the phone. He's like, tell me about this, and
he's like, when are you gonna be in Los Angeles?

Speaker 4 (43:03):
And then he ghosted me.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Rick Ludwin, vice president of NBC, said, Jay probably knows
that you know too much and does not want your questions.
So I sent him an email when I did this book,
and I said listen. Jim McCaulay, tailand booker for The
Tonight Show for the comedians, he wrote this story that
you yelled at him. If you want to give me
your version, here's my phone number. Within an hour, Jay
Leno was on the phone with Mark Malca. He calls

(43:25):
me and he gave me fifteen minutes.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
And I really really do appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (43:29):
But yeah, I mean I asked him a lot some
tough questions. I thought he was fair, and when he wasn't,
I kind of like gently kind of put what I
thought was the truth. But yeah, he was telling me,
and it makes sense. Johnny had ownership of The Tonight
Show from nineteen eighty I think nineteen eighty on was
coming out of his paycheck and you know the brillstink

(43:49):
big clients you had people, Yeah, like Gary Shanling was
one of them, and he did a bunch and Bernie
told Jay, I can get you whatever, twenty thousand a
week or something like that, and Jay was, do you
do it for scale? I think he did it for
five hundred and twelve dollars per show, because if you
do that for Scale number one, you're gonna get the
gig number two your money in Vegas and all around

(44:11):
the country is going to skyrocket. And Jay just played
the long term game. I mean, Helen Kushnik's manager. They
were just really smart. And not only did they do
that in terms of laying the foundation for them for
Jay to get the Tonight show, but she was having
to go to all the NBC affiliates and be politicking
around where Dave Letterman thought, you know, if you do

(44:31):
a good job, they're gonna get just give me the show.
It's okay that I make fun of the NBC execs
and call them pinheads.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
I can make fun of Ge And he.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
Really thought that they were going to still give them
the show just out of merit, and that was not
the case at all, unfortunately. I mean, Johnny would have
preferred Dave but had zero say, and it wouldn't make
sense that NBC would want somebody a lot easier to
deal with, and that's what happened.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Well, and again, just like people should I love Johnny
Carson and get the Carson story right next to it
on their bookshelf, should be the Lake Shift that Bill
Carter wrote, Oh really documenting all that, and man, I
want to talk to you about that great panel that
you did with Bill and John from the Late Night
Channel about the future of snreay night before before we
wrap up, But you know, mentioning Letterman, I'm fascinated that.

(45:21):
And again we don't know because we don't get to
see the kinescopes. But back in the sixties, Johnny was
running around doing out of studio sketches at the same
level that Dave was, wouldn't you say he.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
Was like on the Friday before he took over on
October first, nineteen sixty two, that Monday, he was at
the yank Yankee Stadium throwing pitches to Mickey Mantle and
Roger Morris. And then a couple of years later he's
with the New York Jets and he's playing at the
Polo Grounds. He was skydiving, he was hot air balloon

(45:54):
and he was all over the place. He was at
Indianapolis Motor Speedway with Mario Andretti and Parnelli Joe go
in hundreds of my I don't know how like over
one hundred miles an hour. So yeah, Johnny was. It
was definitely a different type of show. And then Craig Tennis,
who was one of the talent cornators would get Johnny
to do all these stunts that no other host would do.

(46:16):
You would see it in Burbank some of the tape
near the early of Burbank where he would Johnny would
fall like twenty or thirty feet onto a mat or
something like oh thing like yeah, yeah, So it was
definitely one of those things where Johnny back in the day, Yeah,
was active like that.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
And like Johnny was.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
Like the first one when he confronted Don Rickles about
the broken cigarette box for him to interrupt a live broadcast.
To my knowledge, I don't think that had ever been
done it late night, and Dave Letterman took that Rickles
thing and made it a staple. He would interrupt the
news and other things, yeah, which was great fun TV.
But yeah, there were a bunch of things that Dave

(46:56):
that Johnny did first, like new products and he did
a version john did a version of Jay walk In
that Jay ended up doing.

Speaker 4 (47:03):
And Johnny was such a polite guy.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
He's like, now we're not making fun of these people,
you know, just whereas Jay the whole thing, his whole
humor was like these people are stupid punchline that. But
Johnny was very over explained, like, we're not making fun
of them, but yeah, they He.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Was diplomatic with the common man and really made you
feel whether you were sitting on the couch or in
stump the band or whatever that you he really gave
it dan for those you know people.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
He respected his audience so much that he would not
do something to make somebody look back, Like whenever he
had the quote civilians on the people that weren't famous,
that had weird hobby hobbies or.

Speaker 4 (47:40):
Things that he never made fun of them. Exactly, he
never made fun of them.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
When merv Griffin made fun of tiny Tim, the audience
turned on him, like you can't Johnny wouldn't make wouldn't
make fun of them.

Speaker 4 (47:51):
He respected the audience who respected his guests.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
He wouldn't even have like somebody like like Paul Rubens,
Pee Wee Herman or Gilbert Godfrey. He wouldn't have on
somebody that was in character if the audience couldn't tell
if they were in character or not, Like it's somebody
like super Dave Osborne, Bob Einstein was so obvious.

Speaker 4 (48:09):
That was fine.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
For Carson, someone like Father Guido's Ardugi Donavello, that was okay.
It was so obvious that this is a bit. But
if it was, the lines were kind of blurred. Carson
just was like, I can't. I don't want to do
that to my audience. Like Andy Kaufman, he did put
on three times, but it was it was after the
audience is kind of knew that this was a guy
that was doing a bit. So but if there was
any any question about it, he Carson, I was like,

(48:33):
I respect my audience.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
I'm not going to do that to them, all right.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
I gotta take a quick tangent in modern days.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Yeah, because this is what drives me nuts about Larry
the cable guy. And again, everyone has their fans, that's fine,
but the guy that drives me nuts as a late
night host that I don't know if you're aware of
that wrestling turn k fabe.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
Oh, I know very well. Yeah, for the audience, and.

Speaker 1 (48:57):
I'm assuming most of my audiences. But in case you don't,
that's when the wrestlers in the camera, I'm gonna.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Get you Saturday, I'm gonna rip you a partner.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Of course, it's full theatrics. Fine, we get that, that's
wrestling with RIGI nuts about Greg Gttfeld is he did
a New York Times podcast interview recently half k Fabe
half regular, and.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
It's like, dude, oh wow, can we it'd be.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Nice to just see you normal and not just being
a little too.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
I mean, he was just swiping at all.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
That's interesting political left talk hosts and stuff, and it
bummed me out. And and also it is interesting from
a societal standpoint that Gottfeld is having the success he
has because truly, you know, you had I guess Less
Crane maybe in the in the sixties. I'm trying to
think of and more like Downy Junior other people like that,

(49:46):
but they weren't really George Pye shows.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Joe Pine had a boy that.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
Yes, yes, yes, you know Gutfeld does better in the numbers,
but in terms of profitability, in terms of making money
at the metrics, it that's how it works anymore, in
terms of his audience is much older and just the
money is not coming in to think, so yeah, I

(50:10):
think like I think the other shows are probably making
even though Colbert's show is going away. I believe that
the Nielsen's definitely they placed some into it and stuff.
But Gottfeld has been very successful with his audience. I
truly just have been busy for four years and haven't
watched much of anything.

Speaker 4 (50:31):
That's that's really interesting.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
That he is like the k fa thing, because I
I used to go when I was a kid to wrestling,
and this k Fabe was still very very much there,
and I love that whole theatric stuff, and that doesn't
really exist anywhere anymore. I mean, but that was the
ultimate theater was And I couldn't tell if someone like

(50:53):
Jack Parr, if that was k Fabe, if he that
was a character with the whole weeping in controversy. But
people that I talked to that knew him, that he
was exactly like that, and that was one of the
reasons that he had to quit his He just for
his health. He couldn't take putting himself through that much pressure,
and that he would manufacture controversy a little bit like
professional wrestling here and there. But that person was Jack,

(51:16):
and I just wasn't really sure completely if that was
him or not. I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Did you do you think his like feud, his real
famous feud was him in Sullivan and they really went
back and forth, and I wonder, I mean, cause it's
it did seem genuine.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
I don't know, man, I think that.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
There was a little bit, but I think Parr was
a master at ratings and manipulating that stuff.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
Like I I mean.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
I think the highest rated shows I could be off
or maybe when after the water closet joke I think.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
And referred to it as a water closet the second wit, well,
the sensor is like, no, we can't allow that, and
he's like, if I can't say something is innocent as that?

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Goodbye? And he was gone for like a month or
whatever was.

Speaker 4 (51:57):
And then he returns and he says as I was saying.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
And that episode I think maybe when he went to
cubea with with with Fantrastro and yeah, and they were
and he was supposed to be doing a live debate
with Ed Sullivan that Knight who did not show up
because they couldn't agree on the debate rules. But that
those were I think the three highest rated pars. But
that whole, like the whole feuds and stuff, to me,

(52:21):
it really does seem like Parr was just a master manipulator.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
With with with with that, with some of some of that, I.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
Mean, he had everyone from like like like Jimmy hoffa
suit part at one point, I I think, I don't
think par probably mind it very much. And just like
Johnny and his last year when mister Blackwell sued him,
because Johnny did some joke with that about about mister
Blackwell calling mother Teresa like her fashion, like a nun,
no no or something, and Johnny was delighted. And obviously

(52:50):
this that suit was thrown out, but Johnny delighted and
talking about it, and that Blackwell would even think that
he could do litigation and win.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
So you document his final days so well, not only
final days on the air, but all the years afterwards.
I mean he lived another over ten years, was like thirteen.

Speaker 4 (53:10):
Fifteen years, It was like thirteen years something like that.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
Yeah, yeah, I thought so.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
I mean again, I was a sporting news radio when
we got the word that he had passed, and we
were all upset. Again he was one of our idols, absolutely,
but I love I didn't know. We didn't mention Alex
his fourth wife. And granted, like you said, I guess
the European trips or world trips started earlier than that.
But my god, him going to Russia and him going

(53:35):
to him going to Africa with Jim Fowler, the Wildlife Guy,
which that was so cool to hear that, like beyond
the show where they clearly had chemistry, that they were
friends that way.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
And it wasn't enough for Johnny to go to Russia.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
He has to have somebody come to his home for
four months and teach him Russian. And so he has
somebody from Brext, this guy who was probably like, I
can't believe I'm going to Johnny's Carson's home in Malibu
and teaching him Russian. So Johnny could go and he
learned Swahili where he could communicate with the Africans and
they couldn't believed that an American really took the time
and they respected it. Johnny was just super curious like that,

(54:10):
Like he was taking Spanish lessons in Vegas in between shows.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
And just really really curious.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
But yeah, Jim Faller told me that the Africa changed Johnny.
He just fell in love with that place. And I,
you know, I really kind of thought, until I started
doing the podcast and doing more research, that the media
kind of made Johnny out to be a recluse in
retirement and it wasn't true. He was out with his
writers having lunches, he was at the office with friends.
He definitely liked his alone time. He was an introvert.

(54:39):
I'm an introvert. I like my alone time, but I
still around people all the time, and Johnny was so
I think that the whole battle recluse, like he didn't
need the spotlight.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
In terms of.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
Him going back to television, I think he definitely missed
the monologue. But he retires from the Tonight Show at
May twenty second, ninety two, and for two solid years
he's on The Simpsons. The American Teacher Awards, Bob Hope's
ninetieth birthday Kennedy Center Honors, he gets the Presidential Medal
of Honor from George Herbert Walker Bush and then goes
on stage in May of ninety four his last appearance,

(55:09):
which was Dave Letterman at Television City, and he makes
that cameo the Top ten List. Yeah, and then Johnny's done.
And it was one of those things always waiting for
him to come back and do something, but he he
just did not want to be Bob Hope or somebody
that he thought stuck around too long. Johnny at this
point had quit smoking and he had gained a little weight,
and I think he just his appearance. There were a

(55:31):
bunch of factors, but he's he would take the pitches
and consider coming back, but he's like, you know what
I've done.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
I did it. Let the work speak for itself.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
It's interesting.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
And also I had no idea how many different shows
that he executive produced beyond you know, Letterman the World,
the NBC Days, Carson on The Letterman Show as well.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
But I mean that Lonnie Anderson was Lonnie.

Speaker 4 (55:55):
And Linda Cartner.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Yeah, yeah, partner, that's right.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
And he was great personal story that when poor Anderson
and everything faced some personal tragedy that Johnny stepped in.

Speaker 3 (56:06):
It was like that with so many people I talk
to Lannie Anderson, Yeah, told me not only like when
she found out that her mom was dying, that Johnny
is like, here's my plane and was flying her to
San Francisco to La on the weekends. It was when
Burt Reynolds, when so many of his friends abandoned him
when there were rumors that he had aids in the
late eighties, and Lana Anderson said Johnny was always there

(56:27):
for him during in that time when a lot of
people weren't and when they adopted their son, Quintin some
quentin that Johnny was there, and the people that I
talked to that knew Johnny the most told me the
most important quality that Johnny demanded.

Speaker 4 (56:43):
But he would give his loyalty.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
And if he was loyal to you, people would say
that he would do anything for you.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Well.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
And also again, he really couldn't have a normal non
TV life because he was so in audience's minds. So
that's why I absolutely respected the fact that he would
just be very selective. And it's good to hear that
he was going out and wasn't you know Jadie Salinger
on the on the House on the Hill and everything,

(57:11):
and just you know where Charles Foster came at the end.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Yeah, No, he kept in touch with people from Nebraska.
He kept in touch with his old radio and TV friends,
and yeah, it was just out and about. He still
was playing in his poker games up until I think
like the last year of his life, writing jokes for
Dave Letterman the last like eight months or so of
his life, and yeah, being delighted when Dave would do
his jokes, and Dave sometimes would do like the golf

(57:35):
swing and inside joke. Everybody at home would have no
idea what's going on?

Speaker 4 (57:39):
But uh, yeah, it was really I thought.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
I felt I really did want to chronicle Johnny's retirement
in the last days because there was just a really
lot of questions on like on what exactly happened, and
I pieced that together the best I could.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Alex wouldn't talk to you.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
We we went back and forth a little bit on
an email. She was very very cordial and very nice,
but no, that wasn't gonna happen, and I figured it
wouldn't happen. But yeah, she was helpful, like in certain things,
Like I think the biggest thing that she was helpful
is I think I'm the first person ever in the
history of the media to spell her name last name right.
It's mss Mass. It's not m Aas that everybody in

(58:20):
the media calls. I emailed Alex, and I'm like, my
publisher's giving me a hard time because they're saying everyone
else from like all the newspapers spell your spelled the
name m a as And I'm like, Alex, I did
so much research and I'm aulmost positive that it's mass
Mass And she's like, laugh out loud, you're right, I
guess her And Johnny thought it was hilarious that for

(58:42):
thirty or forty years that the media just would get
that thing wrong. But I was happy that I was
at least able to get that clarification. But I hope
she's happy. I've never met her in person, but yeah,
I was. It was nice just to be cordial with
her on some email exchanges.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
I mean again, I really I don't know if she'll
ever reveal. I have a feeling she won't. I think
she really.

Speaker 4 (59:03):
Probably not privacy and therefore I think it I think.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
It was probably it was tough initially when she found
out that they were going to do the PBS American Masters. Uh,
and then she saw it and loved it, and I
think she changed her mind. I had heard Peter Jones
did such an amazing job with that. But yeah, definitely
the privacy gene, I mean, just the fact Johnny always
didn't want a funerally he I mean, it was in

(59:29):
his will. I think up until from like the sixties
or seventies, he was.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
Going to be cremated.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
They had they had a memorial for the close family
on a boat spreading the ashes. That was after he died,
but nothing in public. But that was very much like
Johnny and want to go out very quiet.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Did you ever encounter the other biographers from Lemur to
Yeah Bushkin and the Bill Zemi went in Chicago's very
own Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Well, I did definitely talk to Bill Zema on the
phone and we emailed, and he told me his book
would never come out. His friends told me it would
never come out. And then Bill passed away. And I
get that Simon and Schuster wanted a return on their
investment because they did pay him.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
I'm asking that's what it was.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
And they had a gentleman I've never met, who I
hear is very nice name.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Mike Thomas.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Finished the book and it got published, but Bill told
me it was never going to And I don't know
if you would have liked it to be published or not,
but I do get that the that Simon and Schuster, yeah,
that they wanted to put it out and I did
it did very well. So I talked to him and
Bill was great. Yeah, he was just so many health problems.

(01:00:36):
And then Lawrence Lamer and I did some phone calls
and she was.

Speaker 4 (01:00:39):
Very helpful with the book.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
I really do think in terms of Johnny's life in
Nebraska especially, I feel like Liembert probably did the best
research I've ever seen in terms of that part of
Johnny's life. I think that he did really well on
that and some of New York. I mean, so Lamur
was very helpful. I just you know, from get The
one thing I do can think that I think is

(01:01:02):
in my book that he didn't really get is because
Johnny was still alive and his friends were too loyal
to talk. So it was hard to get any sense
with the Lemur book, even though I'm not going to
argue that it wasn't factual about the Johnny that people
loved him and he had friends and this warm, generous
side of him, like Lima wrote that a little bit
with one of his friends from Nebraska. But overall, when

(01:01:24):
you don't have the people participating given those stories, it's
just I feel like there was something that Johnny's true personality,
at least from the warm side, the gracious side, just
was not represented in that book.

Speaker 4 (01:01:39):
That's just what I've noticed I understand.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
I read Leemer's book, I read Bushkin's book.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Zimmy's is on my reading list, and I didn't realize
all the controversy of releasing it that you've explained, Man,
I'm gonna tell you go ahead if you have a
comment on that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
Oh no, I just I have no idea. Bill was
right here. I try to get him on the Carson podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
He was telling people months before he even passed away
that he was going to go. I was the first
podcast he was going to do, and then Gilbert Godfrez
was the second. And I had such an awe of
Bill and he was wonderful to me.

Speaker 4 (01:02:10):
And I did read. Somebody gave me Henry Bushkin's book,
and I did. I read it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
There are some things there that factually is just not true.

Speaker 4 (01:02:19):
Yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (01:02:20):
There's a lot of stuff that is, uh, but I did.

Speaker 4 (01:02:23):
Stuff that there are certain things that just bothered me, Like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
Sure because for example, like Johnny and Bushkin were not
had no relationship that I'm aware of. After nineteen eighty
seven or eighty eight, whenever it was, it was pretty
much over. And then Bushkin put makes the claim that
Johnny died all alone and it's like, no, his family
was present.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
I feel like he tried to make Johnny out to
be like he was all alone and no friends. I'm like,
he died with this his wife was there, his k
two kids surviving kids were there and other people he
was with family, and he was very much just it
seemed to me tried to make it out to be
like I was never Johnny's friend, and it's like his
wife who passed away said they were absolutely friends, or

(01:03:09):
like at least as close as you could be with friends.
And then Bushkin went on some podcasts and said, you know,
Johnny and I were friends, and so I just I
just feel like with that book, he was trying to
make it out to be like that Johnny didn't have
died alone and didn't have friends, and that wasn't the case.

Speaker 4 (01:03:23):
I always his friends.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
I mean, it's it's got facts in it, but it
is definitely more tabloidy than other biographies of other people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
But yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
I'm glad I read it. It is interesting to get
you again because you've got the perspective.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Dude, you did so much great reason tried well. But
beyond beyond.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
The interviews, I mean, it seems like you know, the
library was your best friend, and you really researched all
the tried.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
To do as much as I tried it as much
as possible and put what to my knowledge would actually happened.
The whole Frank Gifford thing is laughable at exactly everybody that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
We can actually supposedly when they busted it like that,
maybe Joanne was having the affair with Giffrid, was.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
You know, it was Peter Revsen Joanne. Johnny had suspicion
because Joanne had walked in on him on close to
New Year's Eve. Johnny was with somebody from the Tonight
Show in a compromising position. Uh and yeah, so Johnny
was worried Joanne. Joanne had been going on the weekends
to get out of New York. She was feeling sick,
and she would go to a race. She was obsessed

(01:04:25):
with race car driving, so she was going to the
race car drives and and Johnny had a suspicion that
Joanne was having an affair, and they hired somebody and
they they tipped off her, paid off a build a
manager and he had a private detective track down this
place where they thought this might be where she was
hold held up, and they were able to get a
key and there was no break in.

Speaker 4 (01:04:45):
They they were able to get the key, they.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
Opened it up and it was clear from the people
that were there that it was absolutely Peter Revsen, the
race car driver that she was having, oh fro having
in a relationship with, and she it's very it's very
possible that there was a photo of her and Gifford
because she did apparently have a relationship with Gifford pre

(01:05:08):
Carson before she met Carson. She did bake Gifford, so
that could have been there, But at that point she
was she was it was a serious relationship with Revsen.
The Gifford thinked to me, I'm not even gonna say
anything else but that, other than I do not believe
that that was a thing, but it definitely got with
get more attention, saying Frank Gifford than Peter Revson the

(01:05:28):
airedor Revlon playboy, but apparent heir.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
So I don't know, do you mind if we keep
going We're almost We're in an hour now?

Speaker 4 (01:05:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Sure a kind Mark, thank you, I have brilliant questions.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
Sure, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
Also, the Summi Werblin relationship, by the way, basket bombastic Bushkin,
as Carson would refer to him, was Johnny's lawyer and
they did palel around. So I'm sure there is like
fun stories, but like Mark just said, there's stories that
you can't know are true. But Sonny Werblin really opened
the door in terms of endorsements. And again as a
little kid, we used to get the series catalog. We

(01:06:04):
saw the Johnny person soup line and everything, and that
was a big deal.

Speaker 4 (01:06:09):
Yeah. Werblin was another Joanne Higher.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
They were lived on the same floor at the un
Plaza building and Johnny loved going to the Jets games
with Joanne and she remembers when the Jets won one
of their championships, being in the locker room and name
it pouring champagne over Johnny and Johnny being like, that's
the first time I've ever seen you waist booze and
they they piled around a lot, and yeah, Yeah, Werblin

(01:06:35):
was really good with getting Johnny Moore control of the
Tonight Show and was very good with the clothing line
was the thing that really did well. There were a
lot of other things that they tried that did not
go well, with restaurant franchising and things that just didn't
go well, and they at one point, we're gonna be
thinking about doing producing movies and just doing some stage

(01:06:56):
and TV. Johnny was not great at that's you didn't
have a lot of interest in it, like Carson Productions
was kind of hands off on it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:05):
So but definitely Warblin was was big because at this
point the.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Tax Johnny was paying in like for the tax was
like ninety being taxed like ninety percent or something ridiculous.
I don't know what it was back then, but because
Johnny was like I really was like, I'm gonna be
as honest as I can, whereas like some other people
would get to somebody an accountant to kind of yeah
yeah product war Blin saved Johnny a lot of money

(01:07:30):
and turned him into a corporation where Johnny was paying
so much in taxes. So that did change him a lot.
Warbline and got him into horses for a while. He
was into horse racing for a while and they'd go
to the races.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
So I didn't know until your book that Carson Productions
was behind the big chill they were.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
That was the big success. That and Amen were the
two big successes.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
The TV show shermany after the Jeffersons.

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
Sure, I do want to point out there is this
I leave a myth that is not true that Johnny
didn't put or like to put female comedian stand ups
on the show. The only female comedian, the only comedian
that got a development deal with Carson Productions was Maureen Murphy,
who was an Australian comedian who went on the show

(01:08:16):
something like twelve times. She was based in Los Angeles.
But I mean, I talked to so many people women
that did stand up on the show. As Ellen DeGeneres said,
back then, there just weren't many women's stand ups period.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
Yeah, but yeah there were.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
To me, it's hard to name that many names that
didn't get to do Carson Show, and I talked to
so many of them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
Was there an yeah with him in Elaine Boosler or did.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
She Elaine would?

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
Elaine did not want to talk to me. She said,
you do not want to know what I have to say.
But Helen ready put Elaine Boosler on the Tonight Show's
guest host and she did well, and then Johnny put
her on, And I'm not going I don't want to
get into any specifics other than somebody that knows Elaine
very well told me that Elaine was told not to
do a joke and she did.

Speaker 4 (01:09:00):
And I watched the videotape and I.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
Think I know what the joke was and was told
not to do it, and she did and Johnny was
furious and never had her on again. That is according
to somebody that knows her that told me, and I
did watch, and I'm like, I don't think she would
be allowed to do that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
So if somebody did.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
That, like Brad Garrett did a joke that Carson thought
was inappropriate, you were not gonna do the show anymore
with Johnny And uh yeah, miss miss Boosler very talented.
I think she just fit very much with David Letterman
and they She did have a great ride over there.
It would have been great if she got more Carson bookings.
But I definitely think doing a joke, if that is true,

(01:09:36):
that she was not supposed to do that. It was
just she never recovered, I guess from that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:43):
But like you know, we.

Speaker 1 (01:09:44):
Already mentioned Roseanne of course, and Degenerous and Reader Rudner.
I remember being on and I thought she was on.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
With Carol Leefer, Kathy Ladman, Jan Carrum, Carol Siskin. Yeah,
there are a bunch of of wonderful stand up that
were on. Victoria Jackson said that Saturday Night Live she
got SNL through Carson they looked at one of her
tapes and that really helped.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
So of course we started with for sure, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Sure, I mean if somebody was funny, that was the prerecorlisit.
I mean, the first woman that they called over was
Liz Torres in New York.

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
Was the first female comic called over to the couch.

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
And if somebody was funny, he was going to put
them on, and that that's what it seemed like at
least well, and Liz.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Had transitioned by the time I was aware of her
in the seventies as a full on actress and I
had no idea that she was a stand up. But again,
that was a great revelation from your book.

Speaker 4 (01:10:38):
Yeah, she was at the improvo. She was great.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
I mean, Johnny would have had Bette Midler on all
the time. And she did a lot of.

Speaker 4 (01:10:44):
Appearances the first few years, and then it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
Became hard to get her, and even they tried to
get her. They eventually got her to be the final guest,
but even like leading up, they couldn't secure her. She
basically her friends say that she says no to everything,
or it's just you have to keep asking and asking
and maybe eventually she'll relent, but she didn't even want
to sing one for My Baby. According to Mark Shayman,

(01:11:07):
he had to really talk her into it. She's like,
I can't hit those high notes, and he had to
talk her into it, and obviously it was TV history
and she won an Emmy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
So you know, you document that those last two shows,
the last show with guests like Robin Williams and Ben Midler,
the final show where it's just Johnny and clips and
ed doc and again, man, the world really did stop
for those two shows.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
It was really hard.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
I remember watching both of those shows knowing that this
guy was going to go away. I remember as a
teenager just recognizing the significance of just watching that show
from even when I was younger, that this thing was
going away, and it was monumentous. It was really, really
tough when Johnny said goodbye and faded to the credits

(01:11:53):
and were like, this is it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:56):
I didn't think.

Speaker 3 (01:11:56):
I ever see that guy, and it was nice. He
made some cameos and we did that Letterman thing two
years later. It was great, and held off that maybe
this guy was gonna come back to us, maybe one
more time, and it wasn't.

Speaker 4 (01:12:08):
Meant to be.

Speaker 3 (01:12:08):
But yeah, to turn into in terms of TV history,
that pull the penultimate show with Bette Midler and Robin Williams.
It was the hardest thing for Carson to to be like,
I have to follow this, Like Peter lis Ali and
Johnny were like, this should have been the flash show.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
We have to do another show.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
And a lot of people in the public still believed
that was the last show, the one with Bett and Robin.
And the next morning, Johnny had been up since three
point thirty am. He couldn't sleep, he was so wound
up from the night before because it said nothing ever
that magical and had ever happened to TV. He's never
had anything like that happen the bet moment, and Robin

(01:12:43):
Williams called him that morning in tears, was crying so emotional.

Speaker 4 (01:12:47):
It meant so much to him that he could be
on that show.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
And then Johnny, you know, just went over to NBC
Burbank for that final tape in and with illegal pad
and was writing out what he was going to say
and wrote he wrote like ninety percent of his opening remarks.
He sat down on a It wasn't a traditional monologue.
There were still jokes, but most of that was him,
and yeah it was.

Speaker 4 (01:13:06):
I think the way that he went out was so class.

Speaker 3 (01:13:08):
And then he takes the helicopter for the first time
back to Malibu to make sure that he's there to
create his staff that are all going to be going
to his home for the for the final after party.

Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
But yeah, that's staff.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
I mean, oh my goodness, here and there stories and
how much Carson meant to them in that show. That
was probably some of my favorite episodes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Again, these incredible stories, and people don't realize the value
of what they call in the Hollywood movie thing, the
below the line credits, and they're the ones that really
have the amazing stories and again so well documented on
both your podcast and Love Johnny Carson your book. It's excellent.
I appreciate that absolutely. And shame on me, man, because

(01:13:48):
I should have brought this up earlier. Your own involvement
in Late Night. You were a writer for Colbert.

Speaker 4 (01:13:54):
I was not. That's so nice that you say that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:57):
I forgive me. Correct, correct the record.

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
The audience coordinator, I was in charge of one hundred
and seven people that came to this show. I had
to make sure that they had pulses that they could laugh,
and I would talk to.

Speaker 4 (01:14:10):
Them before the show.

Speaker 3 (01:14:12):
I would be the pre warm up to the warm up,
and I had no creativity involvement whatsoever. I've been in
TV interviews where people have have credited me as the
as a Colbert Red I never wrote for the show.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
I was there.

Speaker 3 (01:14:27):
I had a day job at the Dave Letterman's CBS
show for eleven months and fifteen days as well. I
was not a writer, but it was great just to
be in those spaces and to witness that and to
have someone like, you know, Mike Wallace come over to
Colbert and I could talk to him about interviewing Johnny
Carson with him. So like somebody like Ted Copple would
come over, we could talk about Carson or Dave Letterman,

(01:14:48):
and people were always very very kind with their time
to open up and to have those conversations.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Well, you have been creative beyond the Carson podcast and
the late night Er channel stuff you do forgive me
your specific show is Inside Late Night?

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Is that what it is? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
Inside Late Night? It's been fun.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
We've talked to a lot of people from Saturday Night Live, Letterman, Conan,
just hearing the stories about working behind the scenes, try
to get as many kind of like surreal Larry Sanders
story type moments that that are kind of unbelievable but
true things about Late Night. So but yeah, it's definitely
been fun to get those stories. And Late Nighter has

(01:15:26):
just done such a good job with Late Night Night
current and past, and yeah, it's an honor to be
working with them.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
Yeah, forgive me John's last name, Canadian guy. What's what's
his last name? The guy, the main guy. Do you
remember his name? It's okay if you don't.

Speaker 4 (01:15:40):
Oh starts with us.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
Oh, John Schneider, John Schneider, Yes, yes, John Schneider. And
then you have Dan Pasterneck and Jed Rosen's wag. We
did the Carson one hundred that there were the hundred
I think we said greatest moments or moments that we.

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
Thought stuck out. So that was really fun that we
put to the blog.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
Yeah, the blog.

Speaker 4 (01:16:02):
Yeah, John's great too.

Speaker 3 (01:16:04):
We're gonna, I think Bill Carter, John Schneider and I
are going to be doing another one of those around
tables and just kind of like talking about the state
of Late night and what's gonna happen and what we foresee.

Speaker 4 (01:16:16):
So we'll say, well, give.

Speaker 2 (01:16:17):
Me your thoughts, man, because again.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Okay, you know, I'm a I'm thirty years in Chicago broadcasting,
another five in small markets and stuff. I'm I'm a
broadcast nerd. And I really am like, what is going
to happen now? Because things have I mean, obviously Colbert
is counting down the days and we'll see. You know,
it's great that Fallon re upped, but the fact that

(01:16:40):
it's only a year says a lot to me that
I almost wonder if it's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:44):
A let's give him a graceful exit kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
If you've noticed, Jimmy Fallon and Kimmel both are shows.
I met Kimmel, but okay, yeah, Kimmel and and and
Fallon are both hosting other shows in the net or can.
I don't know if that's part of their deal to
keep doing their show or what. But it does seem
like the current model is just not It's just doesn't

(01:17:09):
work anymore in terms of every year late that the
viewership goes down for network television, the money is just
not there. It seems that for that it's gonna be
more like what Byron Allen is doing, which is, you know,
he's taping five shows in a day.

Speaker 4 (01:17:27):
He he is, you know a lot of a lot
of those shows.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
Yeah, a lot of those shows have most I think
every one of those shows, maybe not Seth Myers, but
most of them have twenty plus writers. And I think like,
if they do those again, you might Carson only had
like six or seven at the most. I think the
the number of writers are gonna be scaled down. I
think it's just gonna be more scaled down. I don't
think anything like Letterman or Carson what they were doing

(01:17:54):
is gonna be It's gonna be hard to do something
like that long term occasionally, like Netflix did something with
John Mulaney where it was once in a while something
like that. But just to sustain something to do one
hundred and eighty episodes a year, I think is gonna
be that would be tricky economically to figure out how

(01:18:15):
to make that work.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
Couldn't agree more man, And honestly, listen, I love Colbert
and I and.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
I always have it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
I think he's a nice man.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
Oh that's great to hear and it seems like that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
And I even used to see him when he was
at Second City here, yeah, ago and stuff. So yeah,
I've been a longtime fan that said that Ed Sullivan
Theater has got to be ridiculously expensive to maintain.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
Yeah, CBS, Yeah, CBS got it for five million, but
it was in shambles and they had put so much
money to refurbish. And then when he got it to
Steven's credit, and this was something I was very worried about,
is that there were a lot of obscured seats for
Dave Letterman where the audience they couldn't see, and it
definitely affected the audience and their laughter and lack of laughter.

(01:18:57):
And Colbert was very much like, I want every seat
to be uh, you can see, you can see what's
going on. And I think that that was a really
smart thing. So they redid all those seats. Wow for that,
but no, it is I'm sure it's so much to
to all everything just to maintain.

Speaker 4 (01:19:14):
And I'm really glad that they did get him.

Speaker 3 (01:19:17):
Yeah, you know, I'm glad that they gave him a
bunch of more months and I forget how many months,
six seven months left, but it's it never occurred to
me that you could be number one and have and
get your show taken away. But like, I just don't
really get because some of the other shows, you have
to start scaling you back, like we're gonna cut this,

(01:19:40):
like Seth Myers they.

Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
Cut the band. You think that they would would.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Have done those things with Colbert Show, And to my knowledge,
none of that stuff was ever done to like anything sizable.
So well, and I think there's any foreshadow in Like
I mean, if you if they take away your band,
that's a big signal that you might not be safe.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
But well, if you want to come on on this sets.
But I've been saying to friends the suggestion, you know,
again in that panel thing you did with John and
Bill Carter and when Bill brought up the fact that
you know he's gunning for the Cobert job Byron Allen,
and it's like what, And it's like, and that's why
I'm saying he's safe. He's got the A list comedians
they make, they do that comics unleached or whatever, that

(01:20:18):
which is such an oxy worn of what we actually get.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
It's ridiculous. He's safe.

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
But that's why, like on the surface, it looks like
I mean, really I hate to compare it because I
felt bad for him back in the day. It's like
when Pat Sajak was hoping hosting in CBS. It's like, oh,
there's a familiar face and oh he's got guessed, but
he doesn't have the magic. And I think it's death
by a thousand cuts that And again you'll forgive my
tin hat theory on this, but I almost wonder if

(01:20:43):
CBS would put somebody like that in to drive down
the wad etings and be like and and make some
financial deal that makes sense. You go, well, gee, the
audience isn't there anymore, so we're not going to do
this anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:20:53):
It doesn't now ieah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:20:56):
Byron Elan is such a brilliant business man, and see him.

Speaker 4 (01:21:00):
Figuring out a way to make it work.

Speaker 3 (01:21:02):
And then he does these mix every all these programs
ever green, no politics, so you could run these things
for years, yeah, in years, and apparently everyone that's that
does the show signs something where you get X amount
of money and there's no residuals.

Speaker 4 (01:21:19):
So okay, I it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:22):
Seems like he figured out the model. If you're going
to do a scaled back version of it these things, I.

Speaker 2 (01:21:26):
Think he can do it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
I'm even just more saying from the tinat standpoint that
I'm yeah, from the network standpoint of because I don't
know the value is again in that pre even in
the pre cable world, you watch the late night Show
and they wanted you to, and then when you turned
out your TV when you're having breakfast, it's still the
same channel that doesn't exist anymore.

Speaker 4 (01:21:46):
No, everything's changed.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
It's what it is, and hopefully some sort of late
night show will always exist, made probably on YouTube or something.
But it's just, it's really, it's just it's a shame
that these things, the of like the bigger type shows which.

Speaker 4 (01:22:01):
I always thought would be around, might not.

Speaker 3 (01:22:04):
Like I think, if Jimmy Kimmel chooses not to re up,
I can't imagine ABC replacing him with the late night Show.

Speaker 4 (01:22:10):
I could be off on that. So I think him
was gonna probably reup just for that fact. But I
could be off.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
Well, and I know too, And I don't mean this
in any disparaging way, but he really is employing so
many of literally his family and friends and they because
of his show. That's great. I mean, I give him
a lot of credit.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):
It's a it's a really good group of people.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
When I've gone over to visit, when I've been in
Los Angeles, everyone it's a nice environment and I do
like people over there, so I hope that they keep going.

Speaker 1 (01:22:41):
And I think Carter really did a good job of
explaining Fallon, because I liked him on SNL just fine.
But I had to admit, as the monologues of the
other show's got more and more political, Fallon wasn't doing it.
And Bill, I think rightfully pointed out Fallon's the party show,
and Fallon is the safe show where the A listeners
that don't want to lose half their audience and step

(01:23:03):
out politically like a Taylor Swift, although she has had
her political brief moments, but that they know they're not
going to have to go on and say the current
administration is X whether they like it or not, and
not worry about Stallone and the Kimmel kerfuffle that happened
last year, you know. And and we got back to
him and Stone's like, I'm not gonna do Kimmel. He doesn't,
he doesn't respect me now with him, and you know

(01:23:25):
that it's not gonna happen Fallon. Fallon toustled Trump's hair,
for example, and.

Speaker 4 (01:23:30):
Yeah, it's but you know it's fallin.

Speaker 3 (01:23:33):
Yeah, I mean, it's just it's it's a safe show.
I think he, like Johnny, does not do humor at
people's expenses normally, not that the other people don't, but yeah,
I think he does very safe and people seem safe
with him.

Speaker 1 (01:23:46):
So yeah, again tastes for other people, I guess. But no,
you know, honestly, we are self evident of this, both
of us doing the podcast we do with interviews.

Speaker 2 (01:23:56):
I can't deny. It's so funny. I think.

Speaker 1 (01:23:59):
Didn't cars In himself saying someday everybody's gonna have their
own talk show or something.

Speaker 2 (01:24:03):
Wasn't there some quote?

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
Yeah, there was something like at the end he was
talking about the facts, like the figures.

Speaker 4 (01:24:08):
The population when we started.

Speaker 3 (01:24:10):
In nineteen sixty two is like this many people, and
then all these different and then statistics and by this year,
every half the population will have their own late night
talk show.

Speaker 4 (01:24:20):
Something like that. He would he would have He'd be.

Speaker 3 (01:24:22):
In the poker game with Chevy Chase and be like, Chevy,
you really want to do this five nights a week,
and very.

Speaker 4 (01:24:28):
Politely warned him how hard it was going to be.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
He did the same thing with Roseanne and he's like
tried to talk her out of singing the Star Spangled
Banner when she was gonna sing it at the Padres game,
and he's like, it's the hardest song to sing. You
sure you want to do this? And she famously did not. Well,
it's not famous because people don't remember the Carson Warner.
She went ahead and did it, and it was like
outrage and maybe it was good publicity overall. But if

(01:24:52):
the President of the United States, George Herbert Walker Bush calling,
I believe, call her disgraceful.

Speaker 4 (01:24:58):
But yeah, Johnny tried to warn her.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
Crazy, that's the kind of story you'll find everybody and
love Johnny Carson. I can't urge you enough to buy
this book. It's excellent.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
Thank you, And yeah, well you did the work so good.

Speaker 4 (01:25:11):
I tried.

Speaker 3 (01:25:11):
I felt like ot this weight of responsibility to try
to get the thing right.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
So and also David Ritz, who's your record.

Speaker 4 (01:25:18):
David Ritz is unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
I was so overwhelmed to write a book that I
had all these interviews and I reached out to six authors,
four that I did not know and that were very successful,
and David was very intrigued. We didn't know each other,
and we just got on the phone. We had a
lot of talks and he's like, let's try this, and
we got a book deal. And David has done books
one on one with me, but Don Rickles, Ray, Charles,

(01:25:43):
Willie and Nelson, so he knew all the Wreath of Reckless,
so he knew all these people.

Speaker 4 (01:25:48):
So just the fact that I was able.

Speaker 3 (01:25:49):
To work with somebody that's accomplished as a David Ritz
was unbelievable.

Speaker 4 (01:25:53):
Did Paul Shaffer's book. It was one of those things.

Speaker 3 (01:25:56):
I just cold emailed him and I was like six people,
and I'm like, this is my last hurrah. Like if
this works, this works. If it doesn't, there's no book.
And it just happened that David and I headed off.

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
So well, I hope you're chronicling your late night or
interviews that you're doing, because again, like Carter has been
able to do through his job, we get a great
picture and this whole phenomenon of late night talk, I think,
and just late night programming in general. What do you
think of the Brits and the Lord Michael's doing a

(01:26:28):
Saturay night live in England.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
I've heard that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:29):
I don't think it's interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:26:31):
Yeah, I know that they have, don't they have an
SML version in Korea. I think maybe I don't know,
but I think the thing that I'm most interested in
is two things. If they're gonna make everyone stay up
Tuesday night in the middle of the night to write
for no reason, they could just write during the day.
If they're going to keep that the crazy production schedule

(01:26:52):
for no reason. And if it's the if the environment
is going to be as high pressure, which I don't
know if it has has to be, but it's just
the way it is.

Speaker 4 (01:27:01):
It's like, this is how it was in seventy five.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
We're just gonna keep it that the people were gonna
be nocturnal and stay up all night to write. So
I don't know. I hope it succeeds and be interesting well.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
And also they've had a much longer success sticking with
sketch comedy in a way that American television didn't with
the exception of Sarah Night Live.

Speaker 4 (01:27:22):
Now that's sketches more over there for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:27:25):
You know. Yeah, And I and that's why part of
me is like, because it's weird. I've been listening to
a lot of the pop culture pundits and I don't
think it's gonna work out with you, and I'm like, really,
you guys are not necessarily the news. You guys are
all these other great show you know, a Humori and
the Stephen Fry and all these great sketch shows over
the decades.

Speaker 3 (01:27:42):
The thing, the thing that I feel like they're paying
money for is the format. Lauren Michaels, and I give
him so much credit, did not invent invent sketch comedy
by any means. He was responsible for this a brilliant blueprint,
which is that you get a rote, you have a
group of sketch performers that are unknown for the most
part when they start, You have a host and a

(01:28:04):
music guest, and you do update and that's your model.
And that framework has lasted fifty years. And Lauren is
brilliant because he can deal with both the network and
the creative. Most people cannot do both and he just
is was born to do this. So it'll be interesting
to see what can happen over there. But that I

(01:28:25):
think that framework is just like it's it's sustained for decades,
and I think if they wanted to keep going, it'll
keep I mean, it's constant. I mean, you just get
the new host, new music, stay relevant. They probably maybe
do rely a little bit too much, maybe on like
the Surprise walk Ons, but I guess now there's just
so much competition and noise and attention that they feel

(01:28:48):
maybe they have to rely on that, maybe a little
bit too much here and there.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
But I still think that they do a phenomenal job.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):
They do a great job.

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
My concern is having eighteen cast members and it's like, man, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
To me what it seems like that what they do
with a lot of that is almost like that they're
in Vegas and they want to play as many hands
as possible to see what hits, like which new cast
member is going to hit with the public, and they
aren't really sure And it seems like that that's why
the cast is so big with the new bees, that
they'll like, let's see who hits with the public. And

(01:29:23):
it's tough, Like I mean, I don't understand.

Speaker 4 (01:29:26):
I mean I can understand both.

Speaker 3 (01:29:27):
Like when the original show with seven people, then when
Lauren came back in eighty five, it was a small
cast at eighty six was I think seven people plus
featured player with Kevin Neil and and maybe maybe Spence
still was there for just a little bit then he left.
But it's really really is hard to develop as a
new person when you have that many people. But it

(01:29:49):
doesn't it seems like the strategy, and if I had
to guess, was weirdre going to put as many new
people as possible and see who gets over with the public.
And this is one, Ashley Padilla. I think that's how
you say her name. Ye, she's the one right now
with that question clearly is the I think she's in
her second year. I think it's her second year and
she's I'm in breakout star for sure, and I think

(01:30:10):
that that's what they're looking for with going with that
many new people. It seems that way. That's my guess.

Speaker 1 (01:30:17):
It's very Darwinian though it really is survival of the fittest.
And I feel for the various featured players from the
last couple of years, like Punky Johnson and some of
the others.

Speaker 4 (01:30:26):
Or they're all really good and nice and they.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
Didn't make it. Did to make the cut, but it's tough.

Speaker 3 (01:30:32):
I was surprised with some of them, you know, I
was surprised Hidie Gardner. You never know with budget reasons
are what is going on, But I was very surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:30:40):
It was weird that it was their decision, but at
least she got she got any years.

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):
I mean, she she did it, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:30:46):
I just like normally when somebody stays there that long
Lord wants them to stay.

Speaker 2 (01:30:50):
And death and Hit was surprised.

Speaker 4 (01:30:51):
So I was surprised about that. But they're doing a
great job.

Speaker 3 (01:30:56):
And the fact that that man's been able to maintain
the show for this many years is unbelievable. And the
testament to his eye is on people that he's been
able to discover both writers and performers and to be
able to handle the network as unbelievable skill set.

Speaker 4 (01:31:14):
I mean, I don't know a lot of people that
could do that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:16):
I definitely think if somebody's going to be the success or,
Tina Fey does know how to deal with the network
from working on on shows, and I think she'd probably
be the most logical choice.

Speaker 4 (01:31:25):
She lives in New York.

Speaker 3 (01:31:26):
I think her kids by the time she would take
the gig might be out of the house. Maybe they'll
be older, certainly, but I think she probably could do this,
that probably could do it. But I agree, definitely dealing
with the network. Lorne Michaels. I don't think anybody is better.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
Well, he's got decades on them. So when a junior
vice president is going to try and tell him what
to do, it's like, yeah, how you doing.

Speaker 2 (01:31:48):
I'm Laura Michaels.

Speaker 3 (01:31:49):
Like just his like the notes in between, like during
the dress rehearsal. I've talked to the writers and it'll
be like her a lot of times will not be.

Speaker 4 (01:31:57):
Giving notes about the comedy.

Speaker 3 (01:31:58):
He'll be like, Okay, change the light lighting here, change
this costume, like stuff that.

Speaker 4 (01:32:03):
Like nobody else would really notice or think about.

Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
But so the notes a lot of times aren't even
with cutting this joke or things like that.

Speaker 4 (01:32:11):
But he his eye.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
He is a training and that I think a skill
set that I don't think anyone else has.

Speaker 1 (01:32:18):
Are you gonna like try to get Heidi Gardner and
some of the other ex cast members that have recently
left after they maybe have some time?

Speaker 2 (01:32:24):
Are you thinking on along? Though I'd love to.

Speaker 4 (01:32:26):
I've tried it, It's just so hard.

Speaker 3 (01:32:28):
As I've told some of my friends recently, it does
seem like public figures being asked to do podcasts. It
seems like the new Jury duty a little bit that
They're constantly being asked to do podcast and they do
the podcasts that are necessary, like they're good friends are
the ones that are like the big ones.

Speaker 4 (01:32:46):
But anybody else like me, it's like, for the most.

Speaker 3 (01:32:50):
Part, it's just hurd or it seems like they're just
at least from the publicist, like I don't even think
they ask them half the time that when they're when
they're very big, it just seems like they just turn
it down. But I would love to talk to a
Heidi Gardener or anybody. I've tried to reach out to some.

Speaker 4 (01:33:05):
Of the other people.

Speaker 3 (01:33:06):
But the amount of podcasts they are asked to do, oh,
I'm sure I know, is just astronomical. So when I
was doing my podcast, when I started, I didn't explain
to people what a podcast was, yes, and it was
just it was one of those things you couldn't even
record like this.

Speaker 4 (01:33:21):
That's why I was Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:33:22):
At the time, was in people's living rooms and then
offices all around Los Angeles and New York.

Speaker 4 (01:33:27):
So the times have changed.

Speaker 3 (01:33:28):
Back then, a famous person having a podcast did not
really exist. I mean it was unheard of. And now
it's like presidents have podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
Well, that's why man, I feel comfortable having done this
for twenty years, but every now and then I do
get that momentary cringe of man, especially when they make
fun in movies and I forget or a television show
and it was like a ten year old kid yelling
at his grandmother.

Speaker 2 (01:33:53):
Grandma, you probably be on my podcast. I'm like that,
please don't do that. No, you know, I.

Speaker 4 (01:33:58):
Think people still do a great job.

Speaker 3 (01:34:00):
It's just like there's a lot more noise, and I
think that there's probably some people that have podcasts.

Speaker 4 (01:34:04):
Just for the sake of doing it. But if people do.

Speaker 3 (01:34:06):
A good job, such as yourself, I'm always happy to
do it. I don't put myself in that their shoes
at all. I'm it's always an honored to talk to
somebody that's especially a broadcaster. That's somebody that's that that
has that experience and that knows what they're talking about.
So it's always an honor to do something like this
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
Well, that's very kind, man, And honestly, you're selling yourself
short because those eight years for doing.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
The Carson packcast we did eight years.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
Yeah, that's a lot, man, And truly, and also again
before everybody else jumped in, the pool, and I mean
we out think about it, Mark, we outlive Skype, for
God's sake.

Speaker 4 (01:34:39):
I just didn't believe that. Yeah, it was. It was
definitely one of those things that time in was good.

Speaker 3 (01:34:44):
Everybody wanted to talk about Johnny Carson, which I didn't
realize was gonna happen. And unfortunately, those four hundred plus people,
it seems like forty or fifty of them have left
this earth. So I mean, I feel very fortunate to
get the stories from so many of them before they
they left us.

Speaker 1 (01:35:01):
Well, these are the reasons why people really need to
read Love Johnny Carson. And also, thank god the archive
is still there of the Park Carson podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:35:09):
Oh yeah, it's still there.

Speaker 2 (01:35:10):
Yes, good good man, hey man.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
Seriously, we are literally even me and my little nerd
heard them. Of comic books and the stuff I cover.
We are covering twentieth century pop culture, which fantastic, vital
and interesting. And also, Mark, you're on the younger end
of it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:27):
I got a couple decades on you.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
But that said, I really believe that people from forty
to whatever age you're still Internet savvy.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
They want this kind of content. They want to hear
their stories. They want that they love.

Speaker 3 (01:35:41):
I think it's great you're doing this, and I applaud you,
and yeah, it's an honor to be back on your show,
and I'd love to come back again.

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):
That would be my pleasure, man. And truly, I'm thrilled
that you and John and Bill are gonna have more
conversations because I think the evolution of Late night will continue,
and as an observer, I would really love your point
of view. So you've been really kind of your time.

Speaker 2 (01:35:58):
Mark. Thanks so nice.

Speaker 4 (01:36:00):
Into you again. Take care, We'll talk soon.

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