October 31, 2024 • 53 mins
In this conversation, Jody and Zach Wyatt discuss the issue of loneliness in youth ministry and the importance of building community. They highlight the challenges faced by youth pastors and the need for support and connection. They provide practical steps for combating loneliness, such as networking with other youth pastors and finding local associations or denominations. They emphasize the importance of humility, intentionality, and protecting time for meaningful conversations. They also address the issue of sharing in a network and offer guidance on what to share and what to keep confidential. Finally, they discuss the unique challenges of finding community in rural areas. This conversation explores the challenges of loneliness in ministry and offers insights on finding community and support. The chapters cover topics such as finding community outside of the church, the role of online communities, supporting spouses in ministry, the dangers of isolation and loneliness, the importance of being known, and the need for authenticity and support.
LINKS MENTIONED:
Pray for Me Campaign
Youth Leader Conference
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Youth Leader Collective
National Network of Youth Ministries
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Takeaways
Loneliness is a common issue in youth ministry and can lead to burnout and attrition.
Building a network of supportive relationships is crucial for combating loneliness.
Youth pastors should be intentional about reaching out to other youth pastors in their area and joining local associations or denominations.
Humility and a willingness to learn from others are key in building meaningful connections.
It is important to protect time for networking and to create a safe space for sharing and encouragement.
In rural areas, youth pastors may need to look outside the church for community and support. Youth pastors and their spouses can find community outside of the church by joining Bible studies or groups in other churches.
Online communities, such as Facebook groups, can provide support and resources for youth pastors, but it's important to be discerning and cautious about the advice given in these groups.
Spouses of youth pastors often experience loneliness and should be intentionally included in community-building efforts.
Isolation and loneliness can be detrimental to ministry, and it's important for youth pastors to prioritize their own community and support networks.
Being known and fostering authentic relationships is crucial for combating loneliness and maintaining emotional and spiritual health in ministry.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:16 The Importance of Community
03:25 Loneliness in Youth Ministry
06:02 The Need to Thrive in Youth Ministry
08:58 Practical Steps to Combat Loneliness
13:06 Networking and Building Relationships
20:06 Guidelines for Sharing in a Network
24:32 Finding Community in Rural Areas
25:23 Finding Community Outside of the Church
28:37 The Role of Online Communities
34:19 Supporting Spouses in Ministry
39:11 The Dangers of Isolation and Loneliness
41:25 The Importance of Being Known
45:08 The Need for Authenticity and Support
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Well hey Zach, welcome to the show.
I'm excited to have you on for a lot of reasons.
One, because you're a Tennessee fan.
And I just think there should be more of those in the world.
And so anytime I can get a Tennessee fan on the show, I'll take it.
But we've kind of crossed paths over the years in a bunch of different ways.
(00:22):
And so I'm really excited for you to come on.
We've kind of been talking for, man, probably a couple months about.
about this and so to kind of finally nail that down I'm excited about.
For folks who are going to be listening who have never met you, don't know you, maybe takea minute just to introduce yourself, talk a little bit about your journey in youth
ministry, how you got to where you are, what you're doing, or right now.
(00:44):
Well, yeah, first off, Go Vols.
And that's enough reason to be here in and of itself.
But no, love that kindred piece right there.
But yeah, so I serve in the ministry called Youth Leader Collective.
We're based out of Chattanooga, Tennessee.
And my primary, I've been doing this for eight years.
My primary role is to serve youth pastors, connect, coach, and care for them in theChattanooga and North Georgia area primarily.
(01:09):
I served as, before that, I served as a youth pastor.
in the Chattanooga area for 16 years, some of that bivocational part -time and full -time.
And so I've lived in Chattanooga my whole life.
I'm married.
My wife, April, we've been married for 21 years and we have two boys.
We have an 18 year old who's a freshman at UT Chattanooga and I have a 13 year old who's aseventh grader.
(01:33):
And so yeah, that's our life in a nutshell.
It is a busy life, but it's a good life.
We're grateful for it.
And we have a shared friend in Tony Sauter.
He's been on the show quite some time ago, talking a little bit then about the Pray For Mecampaign and those things.
And so that's actually kind of how we connected initially was through Tony.
Yeah, Tony's the executive director of our ministry.
(01:55):
He was doing what I did before me.
He's actually celebrating, we're actually celebrating our ministry celebrating 30 yearsthis year.
And so for those 16 years, I was a youth pastor.
He was my mentor.
He was who I called.
He was the one setting up the networks and just connecting me with other youth pastors.
And when I needed wisdom, he was who I called.
(02:16):
And then he established the Pray For Me campaign, which connects intergenerationalrelationships and churches.
And that's a nationwide ministry now.
So he spends most of his time moving that forward and was what brought me on to carry thisarm of the ministry forward.
Wow, that's cool.
It's been a while since he's been on to talk about that, but I'll make sure to link tothat episode in the show notes as well as link to the Pray For Me campaign.
(02:37):
Just such a cool ministry and opportunity for so many churches.
I love that.
I love that.
What...let me ask you this.
I mean, we're going to talk about loneliness today in youth ministry.
That's kind of the thrust of this.
What was it that drew you to the role that you're in?
I mean, was it kind of a, oh man, I'm sitting here realizing I need people around me or...
(02:59):
Yeah, well, I mean, I just remember for myself, even when I was a youth pastor, I wasdrawn to that piece.
I mean, I just, I realized I couldn't do ministry alone, whether it was in my own settingas a youth pastor, meeting volunteers around me, or just as a youth pastor realizing that
(03:23):
there were things that I couldn't talk about.
in my own church setting.
I couldn't talk about even with the staff, even though I had a great staff around me and Iloved my staff at times, but I couldn't even, there were other people that I just, the old
C .S.
Lewis quote about friendship, you too, he said, that was friendship, when you could sitacross the table and say, oh, you too.
(03:46):
And I needed that around me even when I was a youth pastor and Tony would,
facilitate these networks and just sitting down at a Mexican restaurant across fromsomebody and talking about the joy and the pain of lock -ins or the challenges of parents.
Yeah.
(04:09):
I know.
I know.
Both of us have the bald head and the gray beard.
We both know at this point in stage, there's no joy with any lock -ins anymore.
Yes.
I'm sorry.
no, you're exactly right.
But for that random person out there who still finds joy.
(04:29):
But yes, it is a just to be able to sit and talk about, you know, the challenging parentsand just all those things that other people that that don't walk through that, that that
resonated with me.
And so when I came on to when I came into this role with our ministry, Youth LeaderCollective,
I thought that what I would be doing is setting up networks and maybe setting up events,setting up lunch and learns and helping people think through strategies to find volunteers
(04:59):
and thinking through that.
I remember my very first time I sat across the table from the youth pastor.
He lamented to me about loneliness.
He lamented to me about, he said, Zach, we just had Pastor Appreciation Month and they didsomething for everyone in the church.
They did something even for the.
it.
even for the pianist, but they didn't do anything for me.
(05:22):
And I was like, man, this is, and I realized how widespread and really an epidemic it is.
And that's the conversation I hear over and over and over.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, this podcast exists because we're trying to keep youth pastors inthe game, right?
We want to see them survive youth ministry.
(05:44):
But not, I mean, and for something like those days where that's all we're doing issurviving.
But really, what does it look like to thrive in your role, to thrive in your calling?
And I, you know, 20, may will be 25 years that I've been a youth pastor, which feels crazyto say.
And when I look back over those 25 years, I could think of a lot of challenges, big -timechallenges that I would by no means minimize, but man, loneliness just creeps up over and
(06:15):
over and over, particularly the longer I'm in ministry, right?
And COVID hasn't helped this.
I look around, the people that I knew in ministry, there's fewer and fewer of them inministry.
Hmm.
And so now all of a sudden, even the people that I did have that were like, hey, I couldcall and I could talk to, it's not that I still can't, it's just not the same anymore
(06:42):
because they're not necessarily walking through some of those same challenges to the levelthat I am.
And so I just think my conversations are similar to yours.
Every time I talk to a youth pastor, it feels like at some point when they get honest,loneliness comes to the surface.
And I just think it's a reason that so many are walking away.
(07:04):
Absolutely, I mean you think about all of the expectations that are on anyone in ministry,but I think youth ministry has its own set of unique challenges.
You know, we live in an expert culture.
You know, I hire my kids batting lessons.
(07:26):
My dad, he would take me to the park when I was a kid to teach me batting lessons.
And not that there's anything wrong with taking our kids to an expert to get battinglessons or softball hitting lessons or whatever it is, but we live in expert culture.
Teach our kid how to play violin.
We take them to learn how to play the violin.
Whatever it is, and then it transfers even in the church.
(07:47):
And the parent doesn't know what to do, how to disciple their kid.
And so you're it.
You're the discipleship expert.
And so we have that pressure of...
of that and then everyone has a different level of expectation on us.
And oftentimes, youth pastors are hired in churches to say, hey, look, we don't have anyyoung families, make it, fix it.
(08:10):
And so there's that expectation as well.
And then they don't have any community around them in their church.
So there's just lots of layers of things that add up to why there's no community.
for the youth pastor.
Yeah, and so what I'd love to do today in our time together is just kind of talk throughsome ways to combat that.
(08:35):
Like, what are some real practical action steps for the youth pastor, youth ministerlistening who's sitting here going, man, I downloaded this episode today because I am
desperately lonely and I don't know where to start.
What are some things that I can practically do so that I don't...
(08:58):
just walk away.
Because it's hard.
I wasn't as lonely when I was bivocational.
It wasn't everything that I felt.
But when I became a full -time youth pastor, it was almost immediate.
There were seasons.
(09:18):
And I remember it catching me by surprise.
And like I said, it hasn't gotten easier necessarily.
I've gotten older now.
I have...
There's more people I know, but in terms of being able to sit down, like you're saying,cross the table and, hey, here's what's going on in my life.
It's something I have to be really intentional for to combat.
And so what would you say, like if you were sitting across from a youth pastor who'slistening, or, you know, and they said, man, Zach, I'm just dying.
(09:46):
I'm just so lonely.
And, you know, I'm not necessarily in the Chattanooga area.
Yeah.
like to come join you for one of your groups, but I just don't even know where to start.
Well, you know, if you're in an area, I would find out if you could, is there somethingalready going on?
(10:08):
How do you find that out?
Well, do you have a local denomination or association of some sort that you can reach outto?
There's certain questions, you know, I've heard someone use the phrase gatekeepers.
Who are the gatekeepers in your town?
Is it a...
If you're in the baddest world, who's the director of missions to say, Hey, is there, isthere already a group of youth pastors that get together weekly for breakfast or monthly
(10:35):
for lunch?
Um, you know, just to find out what's going to, what's, is there something already takingplace?
Um, you know, don't be afraid to reach out to another, um, youth pastor in town to ask ifsomething else is going on.
Um, if you're new in town, um, start slow.
(10:56):
Don't, I was working with a youth pastor who was in our area.
He moved to another area of town and he was very much gung ho about getting a networkgoing.
Well, he's the young guy in town.
He's 24 and he's calling all these 40 and 45 year olds going, I'm starting a network.
(11:16):
You know, well, they're going to be very much, they're going to hold him at arm's length.
Like, hey, young buck, hey, we're excited, but you know, there's,
People, Tony has this saying, people do things with people they know and trust.
And so you gotta take things slow.
And so my encouragement to anyone, if you're new in an area or if you just don't haverelationships with someone is start slow and ask one guy out for coffee.
(11:46):
Ask one guy out for lunch or breakfast and say, hey, I just wanna get to know you.
And then ask, what can I do for you?
Mm -hmm.
also, I'm sure we've never heard that this is about this ever happening, butterritorialism happens in ministry.
And so sometimes people have this fear of one ministry wanting to get to know another,like what is it they want from me?
(12:13):
And in certain areas, it's gonna be harder than others.
And so is this person trying to do something with my students?
What are they trying to do?
Letting someone know I want something for you, not from you.
And so just slowly building a relationship.
So I would say, you know, starting slow, just to take someone out for coffee.
And then, and then from that too, even reaching out further.
(12:37):
Yeah, I love that.
One of the questions that I have learned to ask over the years when I'm meeting someonenew, so if I'm having that coffee or that lunch, I always say, hey, who's someone you know
that I should know?
Because I find that people know people, right?
And if I'm new, especially, I don't know people.
(12:59):
And so, you know, having that coffee or that lunch, I say, hey, man, who do you know thatI need to know?
Mm.
and could you connect me with them?
I'd love to have a similar lunch with them or similar coffee with them has been reallyhelpful for me because then there's some overlap.
I'm not just calling random churches.
(13:19):
I'm kind of very informally building some community among people who already know eachother.
Then it becomes a little easier for me to say, hey, what if we all went or what if we allcame?
Mm -hmm.
And so I love to, I mean, you bring up new.
I'm sure we both know Matt Lawson.
(13:41):
He's a long time friend of mine, love that guy.
And one of the things, Matt was church planting here in Burbank, which is not easy, but hewas crushing it.
And I remember talking to Matt and he said, you only get one shot to be the new guy.
And so he would say, leverage that.
(14:04):
And not in the sense of like aggressively, but you only get one chance to call and say,hey, I'm the new youth pastor at Blank Church.
I'd love to grab coffee.
It's a little harder to do when you've been there for eight years and you've never reachedout.
It doesn't mean you can't or you shouldn't, but when you are new, even if you're new to arole, it's easy to use that as an excuse, right?
(14:27):
So especially if you're listening and you're new to your role or new to your area,
use that new piece as a reason to call.
But if you're not new, that doesn't mean you shouldn't.
You should still call, for sure.
that's good.
And you said something there and you didn't use this word, but it, it, it, it, it, itoozes this and it's humility.
It's like, it's like how do whatever approach you take, whether you're new or you're, oryou're, you've been there eight years is I've taken that approach of humility of, okay, so
(14:57):
I'm, I'm, I'm here to learn.
I'm here to, um, uh, learn from, gain wisdom from you.
And it made me think even about the guy who,
I think about your setting, Jody, and I so appreciate your approach to this.
You're gonna be at a larger church.
You're gonna be at a...
A lot of times, guys at the larger churches will think, well, networking is for the guydown the street.
(15:24):
And they'll think this is for them.
And Tony, he always said another saying, he's like, networking is, nobody is a part of anetwork until they, nobody wants to be a part of a network until they think they need one.
And a lot of times guys at larger churches, they think, well, I don't need that, I've gota team.
And so what I encourage the guys at some of our larger churches is like, okay, so youmight have a great team or whatever, but the rest of the people in our network, they look
(15:55):
to you and they say, hey man, you guys are the big church in town.
You could really benefit these guys.
So I encourage them, hey, don't.
Hesitate to reach out like you initiate you be intentional you humble yourself and kind ofInitiate those things as well, which I know you do so well already
Yeah, I think we, I tell our team all the time, like we exist obviously to reach studentshere and we want to minister to those that God brings to us and in the desert here, we're
(16:25):
trying to reach teens across the desert.
We're not the only ones.
Our church in general takes a really posture, the posture of we want to be a blessing tomany in other churches as well and try to help and resource where we can so it's a little
easier.
I don't serve on a staff that's very territorial.
Now what's interesting is,
(16:45):
almost everyone that I meet, every other youth pastor I meet with and our team meets with,all say the same thing.
They all say, hmm, you're not what I thought you'd be.
Right?
And so we're always fighting this perception that we're like this, you know, kind ofclosed off, even though we, I don't know, there's not many more things I think we could do
(17:09):
to like try to help and support others.
But it does take intentionality on our part as a larger church to do that.
To be fair, when I was in a much smaller context, it was the same.
I mean, I was the small guy.
I felt like I didn't have anything to offer to a network.
Now I got 10 kids in my youth group.
I'm going to go over here and network with guys that are, you know, they've got 30, 40kids.
(17:33):
Like, what am I bringing to that conversation?
And so, regardless of where you are on that end,
It's not the size of your ministry that dictates your need for a network.
It's the role that you're in and your need for community and encouragement around you.
And I think sometimes we forget that.
(17:54):
Sometimes we forget that, you know?
It's like, oh, we measure everything by the size and scale of our ministry.
The size and scale of your ministry isn't going to matter if you leave.
If you burn out, if you walk away, it will all be for nothing.
Yep.
Now that's good.
Now that's good.
One thing I've appreciated about what you've done at Longer Hall, and I know somethingChris has always done, you guys have always really helped guys think through when they're
(18:22):
going through an interview process.
And this is one of the questions I talk about when I'm talking to guys that are walkingthrough the process is make this a question you ask the team.
Obviously you're not just being interviewed, you're interviewing a church.
Ask them, is networking something your church is a part of?
(18:43):
Is this encouraged that this is part of the culture here?
Because I've seen guys go into churches where there's such a, that territorialism mindset,that the pastor or the other leadership are not part of that culture and it ends up
hindering them as they try to reach out and network with others.
Yeah, I would say as a word of warning, and you kind of alluded to this earlier, don'tnetwork so that you can do events together.
(19:11):
You might do events together.
Maybe that happens, but that is not the purpose for that.
And I can't tell you the number of times I've been invited to join a network because theywanted to do a Disciple Now weekend together or because they wanted to do camp together.
And it's like, man,
(19:32):
I just need somebody to talk to.
I just want to be, I just want to encourage other people.
I want to be encouraged when we need it.
Any, what about this?
As I'm thinking about that, you know, you talk about, you mentioned sometimes you can'tshare everything with your staff, your fellow staff, and you need some folks.
What about some wisdom in terms of what you do share, don't share with a network,especially if it's local to you?
(19:57):
Are there, are there guidelines that you'd give?
Like, is there,
Should we be reserved about some things?
Where does that fall?
Yeah, so obviously, I mean, you're getting into a really great part there.
I mean, even like what you said about the event thing, like I tell our, when I'm paintinga picture with a new person in town, hey, really love you come to one of our networks.
(20:21):
I tell them that, you know, we don't, this isn't about coming together and planning anevent or anything like that.
I tell that it's very much about us sharing life and sharing about what's going on inministry.
I tell them that what I usually do is I might send out an article or some questions tocreate some conversation around ministry or leadership, but it's very much just an organic
(20:44):
type thing.
And then we pray together and encourage one another.
I really try to, and I learned this from Tony, try to protect our time.
I remember one of the first things that someone asked me to do, and they were very well-meaning, is they worked for a ministry and they said, hey, I'd love to buy lunch and I'd
love to sell some
I mean, I'd love to basically make a pitch and we don't allow anything like that at ournetworks because I want the youth pastors to feel like, hey, this is a safe place for us
(21:17):
to be able to just come and be ourselves.
And then back to your question, I don't allow the networks to get to a place where it'skind of like dump on the pastor or dump on certain things.
And our cultures have come to the place where they realize it's not that.
(21:38):
Yes, people can share.
It's a safe place, but it's not dump on time.
And if we need to have a one -on -one conversation where someone's having a hard time,then we can do that.
But it's not, let's just come and dump.
And so I think trying to guide the conversation where it's not that.
And that's part of why I'll send out an article to kind of direct the conversation or sendout questions.
(22:03):
And I think it helps guide that as well.
I'm the kind of person, and some people are just natural leaders and facilitators.
I have to plan things out.
That's just me.
And I think you have to have a facilitator.
This is just, I think you have to have someone, some people are just gonna be able to cometogether and that's great.
(22:24):
I have to facilitate, I have to plan out, okay, some conversation.
with its questions or an article.
And even if it's an article, I have to plant some questions around it.
And then God may take it in a totally different direction, which is great, but that's justhow I do it.
Yeah, that's good.
I've heard stories...
The reason I asked that is I've heard stories, right, of something was shared at anetwork.
(22:54):
That person went back and said, man, you'll never guess what they said about the pastorover there.
Well, that pastor knows their pastor.
And all of a sudden now, you're in the office like, what are you...
What's going on?
You know, like, this isn't a...
So I just think being wise is what I'll say.
(23:16):
Wise about what you're saying because you need to be able to have people to share with,but you also need to be mindful that not everything should be shared with everybody
either.
And I think you find some of those people that you can really share with over time.
But again, that takes some time.
(23:40):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's in a sense, it's like how we define our certain communitysettings at church.
I mean, is this a closed group?
Is this an open group?
Well, our networks are open groups.
And so we have some people that they come once every few months, and then we have somepeople that are faithful every month.
And so it's going to create a different dynamic.
(24:02):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Okay, so we've talked a little bit about networks, and I love that.
I think that's super helpful if you're not in an area that has one.
You know, I think we've talked a little bit of maybe what that looks like to begin when...
What if you're in an area where you might...
you're in a pretty rural area, you look around, you can man the nearest youth pastors 45minutes away.
(24:29):
Where do you...
I mean, what would you say to them?
Yeah.
Sometimes we have to look outside the church.
I mean, I know a friend who's moved outside of Chattanooga and tried to start a networkand he just realized, I'm the only full -time guy in the association.
(24:52):
He's an SBC guy.
And he said that, and of course our ministry works across nominations.
And so, but he said even
in his entire county, he's the only, and he said, you know, I'd have to travel an hour orso to get to the next full time.
What does that look like?
And so I said, you know, what does it look like to find community?
(25:15):
And we haven't even gotten into the conversation of, and this is, I'm going to thisbecause this is where I got talking to him.
We haven't even gotten into spouses yet.
I mean, there's just, there's a community issue for loneliness, not just impacts youthpastors, impacts is.
if the youth pastor's lonely, their spouse is too, typically.
(25:35):
And so what I encouraged was for him and his spouse, what does it look like for them tolook outside of the church?
Whether it was finding community in another, finding another Bible study in another churcheven.
Now that doesn't mean that they're not seeking out, I mean, being members of their church.
(25:59):
but even finding another Bible study in another church or starting something.
And that was my wisdom to him.
That was unique to him.
Yeah.
No, I love that.
I think back, you know, there was a season where I was in a context where we had Sundaymorning, Sunday school, 11 a .m.
(26:20):
worship, Sunday night youth, Wednesday night youth, and every time there was somethinghappening that I could have benefited from as just a believer, I was leading.
I wasn't able to be a part of a small group or a...
you know, anything like that because I was always in charge at that time.
And so, we had to find ways to surround ourselves with people that meant we weren't goingto be in that, right?
(26:47):
And honestly, for me, when I look back and think about that, a lot of those relationshipscame from our volunteers, you know, and it wasn't to the same level, right?
Like there's things as a youth pastor I'm not sharing with my volunteers for sure.
But,
That's who we did life with three, four days a week, you know?
(27:10):
And so, that was kind of the easiest place for us to start.
I also think I made the mistake early on, and it's probably because I was given reallycrappy advice, that I couldn't have friends in the church.
And so, I was always really hesitant to make friends in the church as I was on staff atthe church.
(27:33):
And I can understand to a degree...
why people feel that way and think that way.
But if I have a regret 25 years in, it's that I didn't, there were people that I wouldhave been able to forge closer and deeper friendships with that I just didn't allow myself
to because I was afraid of whatever might come or hurt or distrust or betrayal.
(27:55):
And that, I think that comes with any friendship, but stakes are a little higher for sure.
You think you have to be mindful, you know, why are this, why is this person wanting to bemy friend?
But.
I just wish I had been more intentional there over the years to lean into some of thoserelationships.
That's good, that's good.
I mean, think even on a personal level, my last church, I served there for 10 years.
(28:17):
Some of my closest relationships were with volunteers.
I have relationships outside the church, but my closest relationships, my closest friendswere people who became volunteers, I mean, who started out as volunteers there.
Those were my, that was my community within the church.
And so, yeah, that's a great, that's a great point.
Absolutely.
(28:37):
Okay, what about, gosh, I hesitate to even ask and bring this up.
What about online communities?
Like Facebook groups or things like that.
Those Facebook groups, not all are created equal.
I will say, I work really hard to guard and protect the longer haul Facebook group.
(29:01):
It doesn't go quite as crazy as others do.
Mmm.
But what are your thoughts there in terms of community and...
Yeah, I think for a lot of, I mean, we obviously know what they can tell them, you know,devolve into.
But I think that they have been very helpful for some people.
(29:25):
Obviously, they're not achieve.
I mean, they're not perfect.
I mean, they're not going to they're not perfect community.
But I think for a lot of leaders out there, a lot of volunteer part time and bivocationalleaders, especially.
who don't have access to a lot of resources or just even to just people to reach out to,it's probably been very helpful.
(29:56):
And I'm grateful for that technology to be able to have that.
And just to be able to, I mean, it's constantly up in my feed and just seeing people and,you know, I mean, the algorithms are gonna...
shoot the most polarizing stuff up to the top, but there's a lot of people that areengaging very positively with it.
(30:21):
So I'm grateful for that.
that's a good reminder.
I will say I've seen some of the worst advice I've ever given in a youth ministry Facebookgroup, more than one.
There's so many times I'm like, oh gosh, like, and I don't, you know, do you comment?
Do you just, I think I'll just leave that one be, because everybody seems to be running inthe same direction over the cliff.
(30:45):
But I do think too, and I think of, you know, I even think of the longer haul group.
I think that it's been,
helpful and encouraging.
I think there's value to your point.
And so I think there's a place to start.
I think one of the things, I'll play my cards a little bit here.
One of the things that I've really been thinking through this last year is how do Iprovide and continue to create a space of genuine community for longer haul folks.
(31:14):
A Facebook group's great, but it's still there.
What is, I don't, you know.
You're limited on even what kind of you're able to do or what that looks like.
And so, just things I'm thinking through.
Because of the conversation we're having today, I just keep finding you pastors that arejust incredibly lonely.
And, you know, it doesn't have to be that way.
(31:35):
It doesn't have to be that way.
So...
does not.
You know, I'm so glad we're talking about this, Jody.
Like this is, this whole issue is what drives what I do.
I mean, I love doing events.
I love doing things, but like, so like, you know, a few years ago, I started realizinglike even networks while they are good, they are not like,
(32:04):
the be all end all to fix loneliness.
And so like my kind of my the word I use now is even when I'm in a network with guys orwhatever is how important it is that they're known.
I just use that word being known like who knows you and who do you know?
And so that's the thing that I'm pushing together.
(32:24):
I'm like even if you don't come to a network, even if you don't come to my thing, it'slike when you're a youth pastor, you're constantly getting trying to get students or
parents to come to your thing.
I feel like as a
My role now, constantly trying to get people to come to my thing.
I don't care if you come to my thing, but are you known?
And then I realized, am I known?
Like, am I that guy who in ministry, I'm constantly preaching community and I'm not incommunity.
(32:48):
And so a few years ago, I was really convicted of that.
And so, even this morning, met with one of my guys, I mean, with Weekly.
And I mean, we know each other very,
on a deep level.
I mean, and it's not, it's more than accountability.
It's, I mean, we know our marriages, our kids, our inner lives.
(33:11):
And that's what I really, I feel like there's a temptation in ministry to hold people atarm's length because we're so worried if we don't, we're going to lose our job.
We're going to, I can't truly be known.
And that is the thing that,
(33:34):
I've learned to be more vulnerable with guys.
I've learned to be more real with guys because I don't think, I think we've created allthese other spaces outside of our church, outside of churches, whether it be places like
Celebrate Recovery or places like, I don't know, just places outside of our church wherepeople are being real and people are being honest.
(33:59):
But guys inside our churches don't feel like they can be honest and real.
And so,
That's just been the heartbeat of our ministry.
Anyways, I just wanted to share that.
And I really want youth pastors to feel like they can be known.
And that's just, that's the heartbeat of our ministry.
You mentioned a minute ago, which I'd love to dive in a little bit here, spouses, youmentioned wives.
(34:24):
I think I know how much my wife has struggled with loneliness over time, but I also knowthat there are women in ministry who have husbands who...
I can't imagine how lonely that would be in the sense of trying...
(34:44):
you know, like our church has been great here for my wife.
The staff wives kind of do things together at times.
However, like we've got a couple ladies on staff, but their husbands aren't coming tothat.
You know what I mean?
So I would say maybe in a broader sense in terms of spouses, what are some things thatcome to mind in terms of helping and guarding the heart of the spouse in terms of
(35:10):
loneliness?
Um, I think it's kind of like, it's kind of twofold.
And in one sense, I mean, you got the fact that, um, so you got like, just a lack ofcommunity for the same reasons that the youth pastor struggling with lack of community.
(35:31):
But then you could also have a lack of community because the youth pastor may be like notprioritizing their time.
Like, you know, it's, it's, it's like, uh,
I mean, I only say that because I've been there.
Yeah, just speaking from a personal mat, you know, I've had those hard conversations withmy wife and it's just, so then loneliness on top of isolation and loneliness even more.
(36:05):
And so it's really hard.
And so, you know,
the youth pastor has to be very intentional of not only seeking out community forthemselves, but seeking them out for their spouse as well.
Of what does that look like?
(36:27):
And I know within our network, there's a group of guys who they, again, we don't, theystart to come around and do events, but there's a group of about four guys, they do
demails together, they do summer stuff together.
Well, now their spouses are starting to get together and do stuff.
And it's been so encouraging, I mean, going over for dinner and doing things and going outand going to the park with their kids.
(36:53):
I mean, things like that and all organic.
I I didn't, I haven't, I played no part in any of it.
It's just, they've, but they've seen the need.
And so I think it's just a matter of the youth pastor being intentional to say, okay, I'vegot to, I've got to.
to help foster this.
Yeah, and I think for me, I've had to kind of encourage my wife to seek out some of that.
(37:20):
And sometimes I kind of facilitate that, right?
If I'm, instead of meeting for coffee, I'm inviting them over and then we're kind ofhanging out.
Or we're going to go to dinner instead of coffee and we're going to, my wife's going tocome with me.
You know, we're going to figure it out.
Childcare, when our kids were young, I usually had a student watching, you know,babysitting or something.
(37:41):
And then we would...
we would go out and grab dinner together with another couple in ministry or volunteercouple that we're, you know, kind of leaning into and wanting to get to know better.
I think when I've, in the seasons that we've done ministry together well, we've probablyhad an easier time dealing with loneliness than when I'm kind of running towards ministry
(38:06):
and she's not as much.
And I know that's a whole nother conversation in terms of what level
your spouse is involved in your ministry and different churches have differentexpectations.
I can just say that for us, and we were dating when I was a youth pastor, got marriedafter.
So our entire ministry, we've been doing it together.
(38:30):
And it's looked different in different places, in different stops, in different seasons.
Like, when our kids were small, she was not as involved and engaged, you know.
As our kids got older, she was a little more...
When we didn't have kids, she was all in, best volunteer, right?
But I think in those seasons where we've done it well together, it's been easier to fightagainst some of that loneliness.
(38:53):
Because then all of a sudden, when we're not, it's not even that we're lonely because wedon't necessarily have friends around us.
We also feel very isolated in our ministry context.
And man, I just think isolation and loneliness is a disaster for somebody in ministry.
What an opportunity for Sen to creep in and you just to destroy it all because again, youjust didn't build a good community around you.
(39:20):
You've worked so hard to create community for the students you serve.
You've probably worked really hard to create community for the volunteers that you lead.
And in the midst of that, you neglected your own community and all of it will be fornothing if you're not careful.
absolutely.
And that's why I use this idea of being known because you know this, whether we're talkingabout you or the youth pastor or our spouse, we can be around people all the time.
(39:48):
But if we're not, I mean, whether we use the word community or we use the word beingknown, unless we have that, I mean, like, I mean, I've experienced it where I'm around
people all the time, but I'm not known, I'm not.
And I'm hidden.
I mean, my heart is hidden and I'm isolating.
(40:09):
And, you know, it's like, I remember I'm going to go on a soapbox here because it livesjust at the surface for me.
Like Tim Keller preached this message one time called three dangers for anyone inministry.
And I don't remember the second and third one, but I remember the first one.
I listened to like six, seven years ago, but the first one he said,
(40:30):
you can be operating in your gifts, whatever your gifts are.
Let's say you're in a gifted evangelist and people are coming to know Christ.
Let's say you're a gifted teacher and people are growing in their word, but whatever yourgift is, but you could have hidden sin and people don't know what it is and you're not
dealing with it, but because you're operating your gifts, things are still happening andgood things are happening and because of that, you're numb.
(40:58):
you become numb to what's happening inside of you, whether it's greed or lust or whatever,pride.
But these good things are happening in the ministry.
And he called it a danger for anyone in ministry.
And that's why it's so important for us in ministry to be numb.
But we can be around people and think things are okay.
(41:20):
And if we're not known, man, it's such a danger.
And the same thing goes for our spouse.
100%.
When was the last time, and maybe it's different in your context, but think back, maybethink back to when you were a youth pastor.
When was the last time you could remember serving on staff and someone asking you directlyhow your walk with the Lord was?
(41:44):
Yeah.
Only because of mentors in my life.
Matt Brinkley and Tony Souter both.
That was a regular part of them.
Matt Brinkley leads a ministry and he called pact and that's, that's part of what he woulddo in my life.
And he, every time I was with him, which would be once a quarter or so, he would ask metwo questions that no one else on my staff, no one ever asked me these questions.
(42:10):
How's your walk with Jesus?
And how's your time with your family?
And those two things have stuck with me so much because usually when people ask me how I'mdoing, they mean how many kids did you have at youth group?
How many kids are going to camp?
Did you clean the van?
Those things.
(42:32):
And they're not really asking about your heart.
So I really love that question.
Yeah, no.
And I can't think back to anyone like in my church context prior to here.
I will say that has not been the case here.
Where someone on staff, particularly maybe a supervisor or somebody, you know, pastors,asked me directly how my walk was and how my family was doing other than just a casual,
(43:03):
hey, how are your kids, you know, kind of thing.
yeah, yeah.
And that's kind of crazy, right?
Like, it, um, and I, and part of me wonders if we don't ask because we're afraid of theanswer.
Because what, what if you said, man, I'm, I'm not good, you know, like I'm not good.
(43:26):
What do you, what do they do?
And I will say this for all of that.
Let me say this.
There was a time not where I am, not where I am.
at a previous church where I went to my senior pastor in a church leadership and said, I'mstruggling.
I am burned out right now and I'm not sure what to do.
(43:49):
And the response was, well, if you're burned out, maybe you need a change of scenery.
Now, that's not the response I needed in that moment, right?
Like, and...
And I didn't leave.
I didn't go somewhere else because of that.
(44:11):
But I was like, man, I'm crying out for some help from the only person who can actuallyhelp me in terms of my job here.
And you just want me to keep going.
Like, OK.
And so I made the decision, well, I'm going to go find a counselor.
(44:35):
Yeah, wow, yeah.
through and best decision of my life.
Man, like, you know, so months of that, just super helpful, super helpful.
But I think we're afraid to ask because we're afraid of the answer sometimes.
And I, man, that's scary.
That's scary.
(44:55):
It is, it is.
But like you, I can't think of anyone in a church staff setting.
Those were people, mentors outside of the church.
And yeah, we need to normalize that though.
totally.
I mean, totally.
And again, I think that's the value of the network is over time, those networkrelationships become friendships and those friendships become spaces for people to ask and
(45:20):
lean in and kind of fight against the loneliness, fight against the temptations thatyou're facing and fighting and the discouragement, all those things.
They're life -giving, but it does take time.
network that happens just north of Chattanooga, it's in Cleveland, Tennessee.
And there's a guy who leads it.
(45:40):
I just go and hang out when I can.
It's not our network.
And he actually just took a pastorate, but the guy who leads it, which I hate,bittersweet, but he really pastors the people, the youth pastors really well.
But every month that they meet, he asks them a question about their hearts.
(46:01):
And...
I've just loved watching him.
He's a full -time youth pastor at his church and just watching him care for their hearts.
He would ask them every month something about their time with Jesus or what God was doingin their hearts.
I loved how that was a normal part of what they expected every month.
(46:25):
cool.
Well listen I want to be mindful of your time.
I'm super thankful for you being here.
Is there anything that comes to mind resource wise as we're talking through this?
Obviously your network if folks are in the area, they're in the Chattanooga, North Georgiaarea, easy place to plug in.
Anything else that comes to mind?
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
(46:46):
If I can be a resource in any way, I mean, you can link to my email and I would, I lovetalking to youth pastors all across the country if I can be a resource in any way.
Just two quick things, youthworkers .net is the national network of youth missionaries.
If you're looking for a network, they have links to networks all across the country ifyou're looking for a network.
And the other one is we do host a conference in August.
(47:10):
We do it at the beginning of the school year.
It's for volunteers, part -time, bi -vocational, full -time.
We'll have Shane Pruitt with us, Ben Trueblood with LifeWay, and we'll have 20 plusbreakout sessions all in one day.
We'll keep it low cost and we'll try to do a high quality conference for leaders.
And as you're going into the school year, it's in Chattanooga, Tennessee, the best city inAmerica, in my opinion.
(47:37):
Fastest internet.
Oh man, you can, we are called Gig City.
And so it's a great town.
So you can go to youthleaderconference .com, youthleaderconference .com, and to see moreabout that.
So, yeah.
link to that as well in the show notes and then make sure if you, again, even if you'renot in the Chattanooga area, I'm sure Zach's totally down to help and direct you and
(48:06):
answer any questions you have.
So Zach, thanks so much, man.
I appreciate it.
I feel like it's been helpful.
I've enjoyed it.
Hopefully those listening have.
I think we would both just say to you, if you're listening and you're struggling withloneliness, like you're not alone in that loneliness.
for sure.
There's hope there.
You know, just start with a coffee or lunch with another youth worker or volunteer orsomebody.
(48:32):
I have found that community doesn't often find me.
I have to go find it.
And so you can do it.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right, man.
Well, thank you so much.
And I'm sure we'll connect beyond this real soon.
Cool.
Yeah, thanks, bud.
Thank you.
Well hey Zach, welcome to the show.
I'm excited to have you on for a lot of reasons.
One, because you're a Tennessee fan.
And I just think there should be more of those in the world.
And so anytime I can get a Tennessee fan on the show, I'll take it.
But we've kind of crossed paths over the years in a bunch of different ways.
(00:22):
And so I'm really excited for you to come on.
We've kind of been talking for, man, probably a couple months about.
about this and so to kind of finally nail that down I'm excited about.
For folks who are going to be listening who have never met you, don't know you, maybe takea minute just to introduce yourself, talk a little bit about your journey in youth
ministry, how you got to where you are, what you're doing, or right now.
(00:44):
Well, yeah, first off, Go Vols.
And that's enough reason to be here in and of itself.
But no, love that kindred piece right there.
But yeah, so I serve in the ministry called Youth Leader Collective.
We're based out of Chattanooga, Tennessee.
And my primary, I've been doing this for eight years.
My primary role is to serve youth pastors, connect, coach, and care for them in theChattanooga and North Georgia area primarily.
(01:09):
I served as, before that, I served as a youth pastor.
in the Chattanooga area for 16 years, some of that bivocational part -time and full -time.
And so I've lived in Chattanooga my whole life.
I'm married.
My wife, April, we've been married for 21 years and we have two boys.
We have an 18 year old who's a freshman at UT Chattanooga and I have a 13 year old who's aseventh grader.
(01:33):
And so yeah, that's our life in a nutshell.
It is a busy life, but it's a good life.
We're grateful for it.
And we have a shared friend in Tony Sauter.
He's been on the show quite some time ago, talking a little bit then about the Pray For Mecampaign and those things.
And so that's actually kind of how we connected initially was through Tony.
Yeah, Tony's the executive director of our ministry.
(01:55):
He was doing what I did before me.
He's actually celebrating, we're actually celebrating our ministry celebrating 30 yearsthis year.
And so for those 16 years, I was a youth pastor.
He was my mentor.
He was who I called.
He was the one setting up the networks and just connecting me with other youth pastors.
And when I needed wisdom, he was who I called.
(02:16):
And then he established the Pray For Me campaign, which connects intergenerationalrelationships and churches.
And that's a nationwide ministry now.
So he spends most of his time moving that forward and was what brought me on to carry thisarm of the ministry forward.
Wow, that's cool.
It's been a while since he's been on to talk about that, but I'll make sure to link tothat episode in the show notes as well as link to the Pray For Me campaign.
(02:37):
Just such a cool ministry and opportunity for so many churches.
I love that.
I love that.
What...let me ask you this.
I mean, we're going to talk about loneliness today in youth ministry.
That's kind of the thrust of this.
What was it that drew you to the role that you're in?
I mean, was it kind of a, oh man, I'm sitting here realizing I need people around me or...
(02:59):
Yeah, well, I mean, I just remember for myself, even when I was a youth pastor, I wasdrawn to that piece.
I mean, I just, I realized I couldn't do ministry alone, whether it was in my own settingas a youth pastor, meeting volunteers around me, or just as a youth pastor realizing that
(03:23):
there were things that I couldn't talk about.
in my own church setting.
I couldn't talk about even with the staff, even though I had a great staff around me and Iloved my staff at times, but I couldn't even, there were other people that I just, the old
C .S.
Lewis quote about friendship, you too, he said, that was friendship, when you could sitacross the table and say, oh, you too.
(03:46):
And I needed that around me even when I was a youth pastor and Tony would,
facilitate these networks and just sitting down at a Mexican restaurant across fromsomebody and talking about the joy and the pain of lock -ins or the challenges of parents.
Yeah.
(04:09):
I know.
I know.
Both of us have the bald head and the gray beard.
We both know at this point in stage, there's no joy with any lock -ins anymore.
Yes.
I'm sorry.
no, you're exactly right.
But for that random person out there who still finds joy.
(04:29):
But yes, it is a just to be able to sit and talk about, you know, the challenging parentsand just all those things that other people that that don't walk through that, that that
resonated with me.
And so when I came on to when I came into this role with our ministry, Youth LeaderCollective,
I thought that what I would be doing is setting up networks and maybe setting up events,setting up lunch and learns and helping people think through strategies to find volunteers
(04:59):
and thinking through that.
I remember my very first time I sat across the table from the youth pastor.
He lamented to me about loneliness.
He lamented to me about, he said, Zach, we just had Pastor Appreciation Month and they didsomething for everyone in the church.
They did something even for the.
it.
even for the pianist, but they didn't do anything for me.
(05:22):
And I was like, man, this is, and I realized how widespread and really an epidemic it is.
And that's the conversation I hear over and over and over.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, this podcast exists because we're trying to keep youth pastors inthe game, right?
We want to see them survive youth ministry.
(05:44):
But not, I mean, and for something like those days where that's all we're doing issurviving.
But really, what does it look like to thrive in your role, to thrive in your calling?
And I, you know, 20, may will be 25 years that I've been a youth pastor, which feels crazyto say.
And when I look back over those 25 years, I could think of a lot of challenges, big -timechallenges that I would by no means minimize, but man, loneliness just creeps up over and
(06:15):
over and over, particularly the longer I'm in ministry, right?
And COVID hasn't helped this.
I look around, the people that I knew in ministry, there's fewer and fewer of them inministry.
Hmm.
And so now all of a sudden, even the people that I did have that were like, hey, I couldcall and I could talk to, it's not that I still can't, it's just not the same anymore
(06:42):
because they're not necessarily walking through some of those same challenges to the levelthat I am.
And so I just think my conversations are similar to yours.
Every time I talk to a youth pastor, it feels like at some point when they get honest,loneliness comes to the surface.
And I just think it's a reason that so many are walking away.
(07:04):
Absolutely, I mean you think about all of the expectations that are on anyone in ministry,but I think youth ministry has its own set of unique challenges.
You know, we live in an expert culture.
You know, I hire my kids batting lessons.
(07:26):
My dad, he would take me to the park when I was a kid to teach me batting lessons.
And not that there's anything wrong with taking our kids to an expert to get battinglessons or softball hitting lessons or whatever it is, but we live in expert culture.
Teach our kid how to play violin.
We take them to learn how to play the violin.
Whatever it is, and then it transfers even in the church.
(07:47):
And the parent doesn't know what to do, how to disciple their kid.
And so you're it.
You're the discipleship expert.
And so we have that pressure of...
of that and then everyone has a different level of expectation on us.
And oftentimes, youth pastors are hired in churches to say, hey, look, we don't have anyyoung families, make it, fix it.
(08:10):
And so there's that expectation as well.
And then they don't have any community around them in their church.
So there's just lots of layers of things that add up to why there's no community.
for the youth pastor.
Yeah, and so what I'd love to do today in our time together is just kind of talk throughsome ways to combat that.
(08:35):
Like, what are some real practical action steps for the youth pastor, youth ministerlistening who's sitting here going, man, I downloaded this episode today because I am
desperately lonely and I don't know where to start.
What are some things that I can practically do so that I don't...
(08:58):
just walk away.
Because it's hard.
I wasn't as lonely when I was bivocational.
It wasn't everything that I felt.
But when I became a full -time youth pastor, it was almost immediate.
There were seasons.
(09:18):
And I remember it catching me by surprise.
And like I said, it hasn't gotten easier necessarily.
I've gotten older now.
I have...
There's more people I know, but in terms of being able to sit down, like you're saying,cross the table and, hey, here's what's going on in my life.
It's something I have to be really intentional for to combat.
And so what would you say, like if you were sitting across from a youth pastor who'slistening, or, you know, and they said, man, Zach, I'm just dying.
(09:46):
I'm just so lonely.
And, you know, I'm not necessarily in the Chattanooga area.
Yeah.
like to come join you for one of your groups, but I just don't even know where to start.
Well, you know, if you're in an area, I would find out if you could, is there somethingalready going on?
(10:08):
How do you find that out?
Well, do you have a local denomination or association of some sort that you can reach outto?
There's certain questions, you know, I've heard someone use the phrase gatekeepers.
Who are the gatekeepers in your town?
Is it a...
If you're in the baddest world, who's the director of missions to say, Hey, is there, isthere already a group of youth pastors that get together weekly for breakfast or monthly
(10:35):
for lunch?
Um, you know, just to find out what's going to, what's, is there something already takingplace?
Um, you know, don't be afraid to reach out to another, um, youth pastor in town to ask ifsomething else is going on.
Um, if you're new in town, um, start slow.
(10:56):
Don't, I was working with a youth pastor who was in our area.
He moved to another area of town and he was very much gung ho about getting a networkgoing.
Well, he's the young guy in town.
He's 24 and he's calling all these 40 and 45 year olds going, I'm starting a network.
(11:16):
You know, well, they're going to be very much, they're going to hold him at arm's length.
Like, hey, young buck, hey, we're excited, but you know, there's,
People, Tony has this saying, people do things with people they know and trust.
And so you gotta take things slow.
And so my encouragement to anyone, if you're new in an area or if you just don't haverelationships with someone is start slow and ask one guy out for coffee.
(11:46):
Ask one guy out for lunch or breakfast and say, hey, I just wanna get to know you.
And then ask, what can I do for you?
Mm -hmm.
also, I'm sure we've never heard that this is about this ever happening, butterritorialism happens in ministry.
And so sometimes people have this fear of one ministry wanting to get to know another,like what is it they want from me?
(12:13):
And in certain areas, it's gonna be harder than others.
And so is this person trying to do something with my students?
What are they trying to do?
Letting someone know I want something for you, not from you.
And so just slowly building a relationship.
So I would say, you know, starting slow, just to take someone out for coffee.
And then, and then from that too, even reaching out further.
(12:37):
Yeah, I love that.
One of the questions that I have learned to ask over the years when I'm meeting someonenew, so if I'm having that coffee or that lunch, I always say, hey, who's someone you know
that I should know?
Because I find that people know people, right?
And if I'm new, especially, I don't know people.
(12:59):
And so, you know, having that coffee or that lunch, I say, hey, man, who do you know thatI need to know?
Mm.
and could you connect me with them?
I'd love to have a similar lunch with them or similar coffee with them has been reallyhelpful for me because then there's some overlap.
I'm not just calling random churches.
(13:19):
I'm kind of very informally building some community among people who already know eachother.
Then it becomes a little easier for me to say, hey, what if we all went or what if we allcame?
Mm -hmm.
And so I love to, I mean, you bring up new.
I'm sure we both know Matt Lawson.
(13:41):
He's a long time friend of mine, love that guy.
And one of the things, Matt was church planting here in Burbank, which is not easy, but hewas crushing it.
And I remember talking to Matt and he said, you only get one shot to be the new guy.
And so he would say, leverage that.
(14:04):
And not in the sense of like aggressively, but you only get one chance to call and say,hey, I'm the new youth pastor at Blank Church.
I'd love to grab coffee.
It's a little harder to do when you've been there for eight years and you've never reachedout.
It doesn't mean you can't or you shouldn't, but when you are new, even if you're new to arole, it's easy to use that as an excuse, right?
(14:27):
So especially if you're listening and you're new to your role or new to your area,
use that new piece as a reason to call.
But if you're not new, that doesn't mean you shouldn't.
You should still call, for sure.
that's good.
And you said something there and you didn't use this word, but it, it, it, it, it, itoozes this and it's humility.
It's like, it's like how do whatever approach you take, whether you're new or you're, oryou're, you've been there eight years is I've taken that approach of humility of, okay, so
(14:57):
I'm, I'm, I'm here to learn.
I'm here to, um, uh, learn from, gain wisdom from you.
And it made me think even about the guy who,
I think about your setting, Jody, and I so appreciate your approach to this.
You're gonna be at a larger church.
You're gonna be at a...
A lot of times, guys at the larger churches will think, well, networking is for the guydown the street.
(15:24):
And they'll think this is for them.
And Tony, he always said another saying, he's like, networking is, nobody is a part of anetwork until they, nobody wants to be a part of a network until they think they need one.
And a lot of times guys at larger churches, they think, well, I don't need that, I've gota team.
And so what I encourage the guys at some of our larger churches is like, okay, so youmight have a great team or whatever, but the rest of the people in our network, they look
(15:55):
to you and they say, hey man, you guys are the big church in town.
You could really benefit these guys.
So I encourage them, hey, don't.
Hesitate to reach out like you initiate you be intentional you humble yourself and kind ofInitiate those things as well, which I know you do so well already
Yeah, I think we, I tell our team all the time, like we exist obviously to reach studentshere and we want to minister to those that God brings to us and in the desert here, we're
(16:25):
trying to reach teens across the desert.
We're not the only ones.
Our church in general takes a really posture, the posture of we want to be a blessing tomany in other churches as well and try to help and resource where we can so it's a little
easier.
I don't serve on a staff that's very territorial.
Now what's interesting is,
(16:45):
almost everyone that I meet, every other youth pastor I meet with and our team meets with,all say the same thing.
They all say, hmm, you're not what I thought you'd be.
Right?
And so we're always fighting this perception that we're like this, you know, kind ofclosed off, even though we, I don't know, there's not many more things I think we could do
(17:09):
to like try to help and support others.
But it does take intentionality on our part as a larger church to do that.
To be fair, when I was in a much smaller context, it was the same.
I mean, I was the small guy.
I felt like I didn't have anything to offer to a network.
Now I got 10 kids in my youth group.
I'm going to go over here and network with guys that are, you know, they've got 30, 40kids.
(17:33):
Like, what am I bringing to that conversation?
And so, regardless of where you are on that end,
It's not the size of your ministry that dictates your need for a network.
It's the role that you're in and your need for community and encouragement around you.
And I think sometimes we forget that.
(17:54):
Sometimes we forget that, you know?
It's like, oh, we measure everything by the size and scale of our ministry.
The size and scale of your ministry isn't going to matter if you leave.
If you burn out, if you walk away, it will all be for nothing.
Yep.
Now that's good.
Now that's good.
One thing I've appreciated about what you've done at Longer Hall, and I know somethingChris has always done, you guys have always really helped guys think through when they're
(18:22):
going through an interview process.
And this is one of the questions I talk about when I'm talking to guys that are walkingthrough the process is make this a question you ask the team.
Obviously you're not just being interviewed, you're interviewing a church.
Ask them, is networking something your church is a part of?
(18:43):
Is this encouraged that this is part of the culture here?
Because I've seen guys go into churches where there's such a, that territorialism mindset,that the pastor or the other leadership are not part of that culture and it ends up
hindering them as they try to reach out and network with others.
Yeah, I would say as a word of warning, and you kind of alluded to this earlier, don'tnetwork so that you can do events together.
(19:11):
You might do events together.
Maybe that happens, but that is not the purpose for that.
And I can't tell you the number of times I've been invited to join a network because theywanted to do a Disciple Now weekend together or because they wanted to do camp together.
And it's like, man,
(19:32):
I just need somebody to talk to.
I just want to be, I just want to encourage other people.
I want to be encouraged when we need it.
Any, what about this?
As I'm thinking about that, you know, you talk about, you mentioned sometimes you can'tshare everything with your staff, your fellow staff, and you need some folks.
What about some wisdom in terms of what you do share, don't share with a network,especially if it's local to you?
(19:57):
Are there, are there guidelines that you'd give?
Like, is there,
Should we be reserved about some things?
Where does that fall?
Yeah, so obviously, I mean, you're getting into a really great part there.
I mean, even like what you said about the event thing, like I tell our, when I'm paintinga picture with a new person in town, hey, really love you come to one of our networks.
(20:21):
I tell them that, you know, we don't, this isn't about coming together and planning anevent or anything like that.
I tell that it's very much about us sharing life and sharing about what's going on inministry.
I tell them that what I usually do is I might send out an article or some questions tocreate some conversation around ministry or leadership, but it's very much just an organic
(20:44):
type thing.
And then we pray together and encourage one another.
I really try to, and I learned this from Tony, try to protect our time.
I remember one of the first things that someone asked me to do, and they were very well-meaning, is they worked for a ministry and they said, hey, I'd love to buy lunch and I'd
love to sell some
I mean, I'd love to basically make a pitch and we don't allow anything like that at ournetworks because I want the youth pastors to feel like, hey, this is a safe place for us
(21:17):
to be able to just come and be ourselves.
And then back to your question, I don't allow the networks to get to a place where it'skind of like dump on the pastor or dump on certain things.
And our cultures have come to the place where they realize it's not that.
(21:38):
Yes, people can share.
It's a safe place, but it's not dump on time.
And if we need to have a one -on -one conversation where someone's having a hard time,then we can do that.
But it's not, let's just come and dump.
And so I think trying to guide the conversation where it's not that.
And that's part of why I'll send out an article to kind of direct the conversation or sendout questions.
(22:03):
And I think it helps guide that as well.
I'm the kind of person, and some people are just natural leaders and facilitators.
I have to plan things out.
That's just me.
And I think you have to have a facilitator.
This is just, I think you have to have someone, some people are just gonna be able to cometogether and that's great.
(22:24):
I have to facilitate, I have to plan out, okay, some conversation.
with its questions or an article.
And even if it's an article, I have to plant some questions around it.
And then God may take it in a totally different direction, which is great, but that's justhow I do it.
Yeah, that's good.
I've heard stories...
The reason I asked that is I've heard stories, right, of something was shared at anetwork.
(22:54):
That person went back and said, man, you'll never guess what they said about the pastorover there.
Well, that pastor knows their pastor.
And all of a sudden now, you're in the office like, what are you...
What's going on?
You know, like, this isn't a...
So I just think being wise is what I'll say.
(23:16):
Wise about what you're saying because you need to be able to have people to share with,but you also need to be mindful that not everything should be shared with everybody
either.
And I think you find some of those people that you can really share with over time.
But again, that takes some time.
(23:40):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's in a sense, it's like how we define our certain communitysettings at church.
I mean, is this a closed group?
Is this an open group?
Well, our networks are open groups.
And so we have some people that they come once every few months, and then we have somepeople that are faithful every month.
And so it's going to create a different dynamic.
(24:02):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Okay, so we've talked a little bit about networks, and I love that.
I think that's super helpful if you're not in an area that has one.
You know, I think we've talked a little bit of maybe what that looks like to begin when...
What if you're in an area where you might...
you're in a pretty rural area, you look around, you can man the nearest youth pastors 45minutes away.
(24:29):
Where do you...
I mean, what would you say to them?
Yeah.
Sometimes we have to look outside the church.
I mean, I know a friend who's moved outside of Chattanooga and tried to start a networkand he just realized, I'm the only full -time guy in the association.
(24:52):
He's an SBC guy.
And he said that, and of course our ministry works across nominations.
And so, but he said even
in his entire county, he's the only, and he said, you know, I'd have to travel an hour orso to get to the next full time.
What does that look like?
And so I said, you know, what does it look like to find community?
(25:15):
And we haven't even gotten into the conversation of, and this is, I'm going to thisbecause this is where I got talking to him.
We haven't even gotten into spouses yet.
I mean, there's just, there's a community issue for loneliness, not just impacts youthpastors, impacts is.
if the youth pastor's lonely, their spouse is too, typically.
(25:35):
And so what I encouraged was for him and his spouse, what does it look like for them tolook outside of the church?
Whether it was finding community in another, finding another Bible study in another churcheven.
Now that doesn't mean that they're not seeking out, I mean, being members of their church.
(25:59):
but even finding another Bible study in another church or starting something.
And that was my wisdom to him.
That was unique to him.
Yeah.
No, I love that.
I think back, you know, there was a season where I was in a context where we had Sundaymorning, Sunday school, 11 a .m.
(26:20):
worship, Sunday night youth, Wednesday night youth, and every time there was somethinghappening that I could have benefited from as just a believer, I was leading.
I wasn't able to be a part of a small group or a...
you know, anything like that because I was always in charge at that time.
And so, we had to find ways to surround ourselves with people that meant we weren't goingto be in that, right?
(26:47):
And honestly, for me, when I look back and think about that, a lot of those relationshipscame from our volunteers, you know, and it wasn't to the same level, right?
Like there's things as a youth pastor I'm not sharing with my volunteers for sure.
But,
That's who we did life with three, four days a week, you know?
(27:10):
And so, that was kind of the easiest place for us to start.
I also think I made the mistake early on, and it's probably because I was given reallycrappy advice, that I couldn't have friends in the church.
And so, I was always really hesitant to make friends in the church as I was on staff atthe church.
(27:33):
And I can understand to a degree...
why people feel that way and think that way.
But if I have a regret 25 years in, it's that I didn't, there were people that I wouldhave been able to forge closer and deeper friendships with that I just didn't allow myself
to because I was afraid of whatever might come or hurt or distrust or betrayal.
(27:55):
And that, I think that comes with any friendship, but stakes are a little higher for sure.
You think you have to be mindful, you know, why are this, why is this person wanting to bemy friend?
But.
I just wish I had been more intentional there over the years to lean into some of thoserelationships.
That's good, that's good.
I mean, think even on a personal level, my last church, I served there for 10 years.
(28:17):
Some of my closest relationships were with volunteers.
I have relationships outside the church, but my closest relationships, my closest friendswere people who became volunteers, I mean, who started out as volunteers there.
Those were my, that was my community within the church.
And so, yeah, that's a great, that's a great point.
Absolutely.
(28:37):
Okay, what about, gosh, I hesitate to even ask and bring this up.
What about online communities?
Like Facebook groups or things like that.
Those Facebook groups, not all are created equal.
I will say, I work really hard to guard and protect the longer haul Facebook group.
(29:01):
It doesn't go quite as crazy as others do.
Mmm.
But what are your thoughts there in terms of community and...
Yeah, I think for a lot of, I mean, we obviously know what they can tell them, you know,devolve into.
But I think that they have been very helpful for some people.
(29:25):
Obviously, they're not achieve.
I mean, they're not perfect.
I mean, they're not going to they're not perfect community.
But I think for a lot of leaders out there, a lot of volunteer part time and bivocationalleaders, especially.
who don't have access to a lot of resources or just even to just people to reach out to,it's probably been very helpful.
(29:56):
And I'm grateful for that technology to be able to have that.
And just to be able to, I mean, it's constantly up in my feed and just seeing people and,you know, I mean, the algorithms are gonna...
shoot the most polarizing stuff up to the top, but there's a lot of people that areengaging very positively with it.
(30:21):
So I'm grateful for that.
that's a good reminder.
I will say I've seen some of the worst advice I've ever given in a youth ministry Facebookgroup, more than one.
There's so many times I'm like, oh gosh, like, and I don't, you know, do you comment?
Do you just, I think I'll just leave that one be, because everybody seems to be running inthe same direction over the cliff.
(30:45):
But I do think too, and I think of, you know, I even think of the longer haul group.
I think that it's been,
helpful and encouraging.
I think there's value to your point.
And so I think there's a place to start.
I think one of the things, I'll play my cards a little bit here.
One of the things that I've really been thinking through this last year is how do Iprovide and continue to create a space of genuine community for longer haul folks.
(31:14):
A Facebook group's great, but it's still there.
What is, I don't, you know.
You're limited on even what kind of you're able to do or what that looks like.
And so, just things I'm thinking through.
Because of the conversation we're having today, I just keep finding you pastors that arejust incredibly lonely.
And, you know, it doesn't have to be that way.
(31:35):
It doesn't have to be that way.
So...
does not.
You know, I'm so glad we're talking about this, Jody.
Like this is, this whole issue is what drives what I do.
I mean, I love doing events.
I love doing things, but like, so like, you know, a few years ago, I started realizinglike even networks while they are good, they are not like,
(32:04):
the be all end all to fix loneliness.
And so like my kind of my the word I use now is even when I'm in a network with guys orwhatever is how important it is that they're known.
I just use that word being known like who knows you and who do you know?
And so that's the thing that I'm pushing together.
(32:24):
I'm like even if you don't come to a network, even if you don't come to my thing, it'slike when you're a youth pastor, you're constantly getting trying to get students or
parents to come to your thing.
I feel like as a
My role now, constantly trying to get people to come to my thing.
I don't care if you come to my thing, but are you known?
And then I realized, am I known?
Like, am I that guy who in ministry, I'm constantly preaching community and I'm not incommunity.
(32:48):
And so a few years ago, I was really convicted of that.
And so, even this morning, met with one of my guys, I mean, with Weekly.
And I mean, we know each other very,
on a deep level.
I mean, and it's not, it's more than accountability.
It's, I mean, we know our marriages, our kids, our inner lives.
(33:11):
And that's what I really, I feel like there's a temptation in ministry to hold people atarm's length because we're so worried if we don't, we're going to lose our job.
We're going to, I can't truly be known.
And that is the thing that,
(33:34):
I've learned to be more vulnerable with guys.
I've learned to be more real with guys because I don't think, I think we've created allthese other spaces outside of our church, outside of churches, whether it be places like
Celebrate Recovery or places like, I don't know, just places outside of our church wherepeople are being real and people are being honest.
(33:59):
But guys inside our churches don't feel like they can be honest and real.
And so,
That's just been the heartbeat of our ministry.
Anyways, I just wanted to share that.
And I really want youth pastors to feel like they can be known.
And that's just, that's the heartbeat of our ministry.
You mentioned a minute ago, which I'd love to dive in a little bit here, spouses, youmentioned wives.
(34:24):
I think I know how much my wife has struggled with loneliness over time, but I also knowthat there are women in ministry who have husbands who...
I can't imagine how lonely that would be in the sense of trying...
(34:44):
you know, like our church has been great here for my wife.
The staff wives kind of do things together at times.
However, like we've got a couple ladies on staff, but their husbands aren't coming tothat.
You know what I mean?
So I would say maybe in a broader sense in terms of spouses, what are some things thatcome to mind in terms of helping and guarding the heart of the spouse in terms of
(35:10):
loneliness?
Um, I think it's kind of like, it's kind of twofold.
And in one sense, I mean, you got the fact that, um, so you got like, just a lack ofcommunity for the same reasons that the youth pastor struggling with lack of community.
(35:31):
But then you could also have a lack of community because the youth pastor may be like notprioritizing their time.
Like, you know, it's, it's, it's like, uh,
I mean, I only say that because I've been there.
Yeah, just speaking from a personal mat, you know, I've had those hard conversations withmy wife and it's just, so then loneliness on top of isolation and loneliness even more.
(36:05):
And so it's really hard.
And so, you know,
the youth pastor has to be very intentional of not only seeking out community forthemselves, but seeking them out for their spouse as well.
Of what does that look like?
(36:27):
And I know within our network, there's a group of guys who they, again, we don't, theystart to come around and do events, but there's a group of about four guys, they do
demails together, they do summer stuff together.
Well, now their spouses are starting to get together and do stuff.
And it's been so encouraging, I mean, going over for dinner and doing things and going outand going to the park with their kids.
(36:53):
I mean, things like that and all organic.
I I didn't, I haven't, I played no part in any of it.
It's just, they've, but they've seen the need.
And so I think it's just a matter of the youth pastor being intentional to say, okay, I'vegot to, I've got to.
to help foster this.
Yeah, and I think for me, I've had to kind of encourage my wife to seek out some of that.
(37:20):
And sometimes I kind of facilitate that, right?
If I'm, instead of meeting for coffee, I'm inviting them over and then we're kind ofhanging out.
Or we're going to go to dinner instead of coffee and we're going to, my wife's going tocome with me.
You know, we're going to figure it out.
Childcare, when our kids were young, I usually had a student watching, you know,babysitting or something.
(37:41):
And then we would...
we would go out and grab dinner together with another couple in ministry or volunteercouple that we're, you know, kind of leaning into and wanting to get to know better.
I think when I've, in the seasons that we've done ministry together well, we've probablyhad an easier time dealing with loneliness than when I'm kind of running towards ministry
(38:06):
and she's not as much.
And I know that's a whole nother conversation in terms of what level
your spouse is involved in your ministry and different churches have differentexpectations.
I can just say that for us, and we were dating when I was a youth pastor, got marriedafter.
So our entire ministry, we've been doing it together.
(38:30):
And it's looked different in different places, in different stops, in different seasons.
Like, when our kids were small, she was not as involved and engaged, you know.
As our kids got older, she was a little more...
When we didn't have kids, she was all in, best volunteer, right?
But I think in those seasons where we've done it well together, it's been easier to fightagainst some of that loneliness.
(38:53):
Because then all of a sudden, when we're not, it's not even that we're lonely because wedon't necessarily have friends around us.
We also feel very isolated in our ministry context.
And man, I just think isolation and loneliness is a disaster for somebody in ministry.
What an opportunity for Sen to creep in and you just to destroy it all because again, youjust didn't build a good community around you.
(39:20):
You've worked so hard to create community for the students you serve.
You've probably worked really hard to create community for the volunteers that you lead.
And in the midst of that, you neglected your own community and all of it will be fornothing if you're not careful.
absolutely.
And that's why I use this idea of being known because you know this, whether we're talkingabout you or the youth pastor or our spouse, we can be around people all the time.
(39:48):
But if we're not, I mean, whether we use the word community or we use the word beingknown, unless we have that, I mean, like, I mean, I've experienced it where I'm around
people all the time, but I'm not known, I'm not.
And I'm hidden.
I mean, my heart is hidden and I'm isolating.
(40:09):
And, you know, it's like, I remember I'm going to go on a soapbox here because it livesjust at the surface for me.
Like Tim Keller preached this message one time called three dangers for anyone inministry.
And I don't remember the second and third one, but I remember the first one.
I listened to like six, seven years ago, but the first one he said,
(40:30):
you can be operating in your gifts, whatever your gifts are.
Let's say you're in a gifted evangelist and people are coming to know Christ.
Let's say you're a gifted teacher and people are growing in their word, but whatever yourgift is, but you could have hidden sin and people don't know what it is and you're not
dealing with it, but because you're operating your gifts, things are still happening andgood things are happening and because of that, you're numb.
(40:58):
you become numb to what's happening inside of you, whether it's greed or lust or whatever,pride.
But these good things are happening in the ministry.
And he called it a danger for anyone in ministry.
And that's why it's so important for us in ministry to be numb.
But we can be around people and think things are okay.
(41:20):
And if we're not known, man, it's such a danger.
And the same thing goes for our spouse.
100%.
When was the last time, and maybe it's different in your context, but think back, maybethink back to when you were a youth pastor.
When was the last time you could remember serving on staff and someone asking you directlyhow your walk with the Lord was?
(41:44):
Yeah.
Only because of mentors in my life.
Matt Brinkley and Tony Souter both.
That was a regular part of them.
Matt Brinkley leads a ministry and he called pact and that's, that's part of what he woulddo in my life.
And he, every time I was with him, which would be once a quarter or so, he would ask metwo questions that no one else on my staff, no one ever asked me these questions.
(42:10):
How's your walk with Jesus?
And how's your time with your family?
And those two things have stuck with me so much because usually when people ask me how I'mdoing, they mean how many kids did you have at youth group?
How many kids are going to camp?
Did you clean the van?
Those things.
(42:32):
And they're not really asking about your heart.
So I really love that question.
Yeah, no.
And I can't think back to anyone like in my church context prior to here.
I will say that has not been the case here.
Where someone on staff, particularly maybe a supervisor or somebody, you know, pastors,asked me directly how my walk was and how my family was doing other than just a casual,
(43:03):
hey, how are your kids, you know, kind of thing.
yeah, yeah.
And that's kind of crazy, right?
Like, it, um, and I, and part of me wonders if we don't ask because we're afraid of theanswer.
Because what, what if you said, man, I'm, I'm not good, you know, like I'm not good.
(43:26):
What do you, what do they do?
And I will say this for all of that.
Let me say this.
There was a time not where I am, not where I am.
at a previous church where I went to my senior pastor in a church leadership and said, I'mstruggling.
I am burned out right now and I'm not sure what to do.
(43:49):
And the response was, well, if you're burned out, maybe you need a change of scenery.
Now, that's not the response I needed in that moment, right?
Like, and...
And I didn't leave.
I didn't go somewhere else because of that.
(44:11):
But I was like, man, I'm crying out for some help from the only person who can actuallyhelp me in terms of my job here.
And you just want me to keep going.
Like, OK.
And so I made the decision, well, I'm going to go find a counselor.
(44:35):
Yeah, wow, yeah.
through and best decision of my life.
Man, like, you know, so months of that, just super helpful, super helpful.
But I think we're afraid to ask because we're afraid of the answer sometimes.
And I, man, that's scary.
That's scary.
(44:55):
It is, it is.
But like you, I can't think of anyone in a church staff setting.
Those were people, mentors outside of the church.
And yeah, we need to normalize that though.
totally.
I mean, totally.
And again, I think that's the value of the network is over time, those networkrelationships become friendships and those friendships become spaces for people to ask and
(45:20):
lean in and kind of fight against the loneliness, fight against the temptations thatyou're facing and fighting and the discouragement, all those things.
They're life -giving, but it does take time.
network that happens just north of Chattanooga, it's in Cleveland, Tennessee.
And there's a guy who leads it.
(45:40):
I just go and hang out when I can.
It's not our network.
And he actually just took a pastorate, but the guy who leads it, which I hate,bittersweet, but he really pastors the people, the youth pastors really well.
But every month that they meet, he asks them a question about their hearts.
(46:01):
And...
I've just loved watching him.
He's a full -time youth pastor at his church and just watching him care for their hearts.
He would ask them every month something about their time with Jesus or what God was doingin their hearts.
I loved how that was a normal part of what they expected every month.
(46:25):
cool.
Well listen I want to be mindful of your time.
I'm super thankful for you being here.
Is there anything that comes to mind resource wise as we're talking through this?
Obviously your network if folks are in the area, they're in the Chattanooga, North Georgiaarea, easy place to plug in.
Anything else that comes to mind?
Yeah, no, I appreciate that.
(46:46):
If I can be a resource in any way, I mean, you can link to my email and I would, I lovetalking to youth pastors all across the country if I can be a resource in any way.
Just two quick things, youthworkers .net is the national network of youth missionaries.
If you're looking for a network, they have links to networks all across the country ifyou're looking for a network.
And the other one is we do host a conference in August.
(47:10):
We do it at the beginning of the school year.
It's for volunteers, part -time, bi -vocational, full -time.
We'll have Shane Pruitt with us, Ben Trueblood with LifeWay, and we'll have 20 plusbreakout sessions all in one day.
We'll keep it low cost and we'll try to do a high quality conference for leaders.
And as you're going into the school year, it's in Chattanooga, Tennessee, the best city inAmerica, in my opinion.
(47:37):
Fastest internet.
Oh man, you can, we are called Gig City.
And so it's a great town.
So you can go to youthleaderconference .com, youthleaderconference .com, and to see moreabout that.
So, yeah.
link to that as well in the show notes and then make sure if you, again, even if you'renot in the Chattanooga area, I'm sure Zach's totally down to help and direct you and
(48:06):
answer any questions you have.
So Zach, thanks so much, man.
I appreciate it.
I feel like it's been helpful.
I've enjoyed it.
Hopefully those listening have.
I think we would both just say to you, if you're listening and you're struggling withloneliness, like you're not alone in that loneliness.
for sure.
There's hope there.
You know, just start with a coffee or lunch with another youth worker or volunteer orsomebody.
(48:32):
I have found that community doesn't often find me.
I have to go find it.
And so you can do it.
Yeah.
Cool.
All right, man.
Well, thank you so much.
And I'm sure we'll connect beyond this real soon.
Cool.
Yeah, thanks, bud.
Thank you.
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