November 21, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode, Jody and Doug Franklin explore the intricacies of student leadership and the importance of developing leadership skills among youth. Doug shares his journey in youth ministry, emphasizing the need for leadership development resources and the significance of understanding each student's unique gifts and wiring.
They discuss the process of leadership development, the role of empathy, and the common mistakes youth workers make in fostering leadership in their ministries. Doug advocates for a holistic approach to leadership that includes understanding one's mission and the importance of serving others.
Doug shares insights on developing student leaders in youth ministry. He emphasizes the importance of creating effective training plans, understanding the different zones of experience (comfort, growth, panic), and the need for clear expectations. Doug advocates for a model of leadership labs over traditional leadership teams, highlighting the benefits of personalized mentorship and addressing favoritism in leadership development. He also discusses the significance of long-term investment in students and recognizing potential in those who may not fit the typical mold of a leader.
LINKS MENTIONED:
LeaderTreks.org
DeepDiscipleship.com
Re-imagine Student Leadership eBook
RESOURCES MENTIONED:
Doug Franklin's Contact Information:
Email: Doug@LeaderTreks.com
Facebook Messenger: Available for direct contact
LeaderTreks Refuel Retreats: Three-day intensive retreats on discipleship and leadership development, held across the country.
JOIN THE PODCAST GROUP!
Click here to join our Longer Haul Youth Ministry Podcast Facebook Group
GET COACHING:
The Longer Haul Youth Ministry Coaching
TAKEAWAYS:
Leadership development is a process, not a one-time event.
Every student has the potential to be a leader.
Understanding one's unique gifts is crucial for leadership.
Empathy is essential for effective leadership.
Leadership principles can be learned and applied by all students.
Students value service and impact over traditional leadership roles.
Burden, passion, and vision are key to discovering one's mission.
Building relationships is foundational in leadership development.
Natural leaders often exhibit disruptive behavior that can be redirected positively.
Common mistakes include failing to provide actionable steps after assessments.
Youth workers often neglect the training component for student leaders.
There are three zones of experience: comfort, growth, and panic.
The growth zone is where students rely on God and their team.
Clear expectations are crucial for student leadership roles.
Transformational leadership development requires principles, experiences, and debriefing.
Leadership labs are more effective than traditional leadership teams.
Favoritism can be mitigated by combining students who don't know each other.
Identifying leadership potential in troubled students is essential.
Long-term investment in students can yield unexpected results.
Investing in students who are often overlooked can lead to significant growth.
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Introduction to Student Leadership
02:57 Doug Franklin's Journey in Youth Ministry
06:02 The Importance of Leadership Development
09:00 Starting Leadership Development with Students
12:13 Understanding Unique Gifts and Mission
15:02 Natural Leadership vs. Learned Leadership
17:55 Empathy in Leadership
20:49 Common Mistakes in Youth Leadership Development
22:39 Creating Effective Training Plans for Student Leaders
24:07 Understanding Comfort, Growth, and Panic Zones
27:27 The Importance of Clear Expectations in Leadership
28:41 Principles, Experiences, and Debriefing in Leadership Development
29:52 The Concept of Leadership Labs vs. Leadership Teams
33:39 Addressing Favoritism in Leadership Development
36:23 Identifying Leadership Potential in Troubled S...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I don't, I don't like student leadership teams.
I don't like this fill out an application and somebody's in and somebody's out and thenmom and dad are angry.
I don't like, 12 kids on a team.
And it's kind of like the last supper.
We all sit around together and, know, and, you know, I don't, I, cause what ends uphappening to be totally honest with you is.
(00:22):
We usually put juniors and seniors who are really busy and already overwhelmed, right?
And they start the fall strong on the student leadership team, but by Christmas we can'tfind them.
They're applying to colleges, they're doing college visits, and it's a disaster.
And typically on those teams, and I've observed a lot of teams, there's three studentsthat do everything and the other nine hide.
(00:46):
And it's a horrible.
And it's usually just project based.
Again, the doing side of leadership.
So
Well, hey, hey, everybody.
Welcome to the show today.
Thanks for tuning in and listening wherever you are and wherever this finds you.
Thanks for making this podcast today a part of your day.
(01:09):
Make sure you're subscribed and following where you listen.
If you've not left a rating or review recently or ever, I'd love for you to do that.
It helps others find the show.
Make sure that the show continues to reach and encourage youth pastors.
Hopefully you're on the mailing list over at the longer hall comm and in the Facebookgroup, but if not, make sure you jump into those as well Listen, we we're gonna we've got
(01:32):
a great episode today and I've told a couple folks since recording the interview aboutthis conversation today every now and then you record an episode or an interview with
somebody and You just walk away feeling like man.
I could have talked to them all day long and that's true today
We're jumping into the topic of student leadership, which is a really important topic instudent ministry.
(01:57):
I think most youth pastors know that we want to have student leaders in studentleadership, but we're not quite sure what to do with it or we haven't really found a way
that we love to do.
so Doug Franklin jumps on today from Leader Treks.
And if you've not met Doug or been around Doug, just an amazing guy, has done youthministry forever and loves
(02:20):
student pastors, youth ministers, youth leaders, loves student leadership, and has a lotto share and say about that topic.
You're going to hear his heart for sure come out as he talks about this, but just somereally, really practical helps and takeaways as well as some great resources for you
(02:40):
today.
So I know you're going to enjoy the conversation.
I know you're going to love Doug.
Just an amazing guy and just so thankful for him.
to give some time to jump on to the show today.
All the links, resources that we mentioned, and there are quite a few, you can find on theshow notes page over at thelongerhaul.com slash episode 140.
So longerhaul.com slash episode 140.
(03:03):
So make sure you head over there and check out all of those things.
anyway, hopefully we got a pen and paper ready.
There's gonna be a lot of things I think that you're gonna wanna make note of if you'redriving.
Don't do that while you're driving.
But hopefully.
Either way, you'll come away some really strong takeaways.
And I think this is really going to help you strengthen your students and your studentleadership in your context there.
(03:25):
enjoy the interview today.
We'll jump in here today with Doug Franklin from Leader Tricks.
(03:48):
Well, hey, Doug, thanks.
Thanks for giving some time and jumping on today.
I know we've we've tried to do this a few times and just my schedule, my health stuff kindof maybe derailed that.
I appreciate you hanging in and jumping in.
I'm I'm really excited to jump in and talk about our topic, particularly when it comes tojust student leadership.
(04:09):
In fact, I just mentioned right before we jumped on, I think everybody realized it'simportant, but nobody's really sure how to do it.
So.
I'm excited to have you come in and teach us.
I'm excited to learn today.
I know I'll be taking a ton of notes on my side.
Before we get to that, maybe just take a second for folks who may not be familiar withyou, introduce yourself, your journey a little bit, what you do, and why you would even be
(04:35):
the one to talk on this.
I started at Leader Treks in 1994.
And, so I started as a youth worker in 87 as a long time ago, man, long time ago.
And, talk about the long haul.
but, I, I, I came out of college, I studied youth ministry, but I didn't really want to bea youth worker, youth pastor.
(04:58):
Let me say it that way.
So I got a job and my church invited me to come and volunteer and I gave all the excuses.
And then they had this one argument that I couldn't fort, which was you owe us.
And I did.
I grown up in a great church, great youth workers, great volunteers, great small groups.
I did, I owed them.
So I said, how much do I owe you?
(05:20):
was how arrogant I was as a 22 year old.
And they're like one year.
And so I was like, I could do one year.
So I did one year.
I played WrestleMania with my junior high boys.
put a square down in masking tape on the floor.
And I said, every week, I said, get me out of this square and you win.
And it was WrestleMania.
(05:41):
And then I did five minutes of Jesus at the end.
It was terrible.
It was the worst youth ministry in the world.
And I remember near the end of the year, one of the other volunteers, Chuck, said to me,Doug, are you gonna come back next year?
And I said, no, Chuck, I just had to do one year.
I got my one year done.
Chuck said this to me.
He's like, why don't you start asking the boys in your group if they know Jesus?
(06:03):
as their Lord and Savior.
And I'm like, Chuck, I grew up in Wheaton, Illinois.
I'm like, every kid in my group's dad was a professor at Wheaton College, you and I waslike, Christian school.
And I was like, okay, Chuck, make you happy, I'll do it, you know.
So at the end, was like, boys, anybody wanna know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
Two boys raised their hands, and I literally said this, you gotta be kidding me.
(06:26):
You gotta be kidding me.
I was a great evangelist.
Greg Steer could learn so much from me.
But I was hooked then.
That hooked me.
And it wasn't long before I got rid of the square and got the Bible in there.
And we started going to town.
so that's what really captured my heart.
(06:48):
And six years later, I left the secular world and became a full-time youth worker.
But one of the things that I noticed in youth ministry is every time I set the bar, mystudents would jump over it.
So I started playing with it and I started requiring more and offering more and asking formore.
And they just kept jumping over and over and over.
And I was like, how high can I get this thing?
(07:09):
And then I realized there was, my students loved owning it.
They loved being in charge.
They loved making decisions.
loved, so I started looking for leadership development resources.
I, know,
There's only one at the time, you specialty.
So I called them, they were super nice.
They were like, that's interesting.
I'm not really sure that's part of the youth ministry.
(07:31):
And that was a fair answer.
I'm not blaming you.
That's a fair answer, right?
And God began to lay on my heart like, hey, Doug, why don't you start making resources foryouth workers?
So I did, I started making resources.
And it wasn't long before I started asking myself the question.
How would I teach leadership development if I wanted to teach it to somebody else?
(07:52):
Would I stand in front of a whiteboard?
And the answer was no for me.
The answer was I'd teach it through a vehicle that youth workers were already using.
So I started offering these leadership development mission trips where I took a missionstrip and I took every aspect of the trip and I turned it into a leadership laboratory.
And from there I really began to learn a lot about leadership and then I quickly learnedthat
(08:16):
If you're gonna do leadership development, you need this element of discovery, discoveringhow you're wired, how you're shaped, how you're gifted.
And so I partnered with a guy named Dr.
Jim Galvin, who at the time was the leading expert on leadership development assessments.
And he and I wrote seven together in students language, biblically based, really great.
(08:40):
And then from there, I started putting them into curriculum.
And then in the early 2000s,
came along, Campus Crusade came along and asked me to start training their staff in LatinAmerica.
And I was like, dude, I'm a kid guy.
don't go to Latin America, first of all.
So they just begged me to come to Bolivia and do some training for them.
(09:01):
And so I did.
And I didn't really have my material in training form.
it was a challenge for me.
made a lot of mistakes.
But they were so impressed with what they saw.
They signed a 10-year contract with us to
licensed the name and for me to travel to Bolivia twice a year to train their top endstaff.
(09:21):
This wasn't just college kids because they wanted to get into private universities andthey couldn't with the name Campus Crusade, but they could with the name Leader Trucks and
offering leadership development.
they saw a lot of university students come to know the Lord.
And so even today,
They still do training every week in Cuba, leader tracks training.
(09:41):
That's still all over Latin America.
They even signed a contract with the Ecuadorian Navy to do leadership development withleader tracks.
Now, the first thing I said is Ecuador has a Navy.
That was the first thing I said.
But it spread that way.
And that helped me because I went from thinking about how do I do leadership developmentwith the student in front of me to how do I
(10:07):
how do I train somebody else to do leadership development?
And that was transformational for me.
And as one of those things that I think I brought into my life to help me grow.
So today, Leader Treks does trips, training, and curriculum.
We still offer mission trips.
We still do about a hundred and little over a hundred mission trips a year.
We do training all over the country.
(10:29):
I was just in Colorado Springs last week training youth workers through our refuel events.
And then of course curriculum, which
Thousands of churches across the US use us for curriculum.
So for both discipleship and leadership.
So that's my journey kind of in a nutshell.
I love that and I love that it's not like when I hear you, what I hear you saying is thatthis thing you do is really born out of a passion in your life that God has stirred
(10:58):
through your own working with students.
And I think in a world and today where it's so easy just to create content and curriculumjust to have and sell, I think the fact that it's born out of a conviction that was
kind of stirred in your own heart as a youth worker early on, man, that's impactful.
(11:19):
That's impactful.
And so I appreciate that.
kind of dislike it when somebody just buys a piece of curriculum from us because I, behonest with you, I feel like it's very transactional and I feel like leadership
development is not a one.
You can't buy our big book, Student Leaders Start Here.
You can't buy that book and instantly make leaders.
(11:40):
It's a process.
It involves principles, leadership principles that come from
the world and from scripture and it requires experiences.
They got to play the role of a leader.
So it's a process and that's I think that's a little bit of what's hard about it.
There's no silver bullet in leadership development and it's messy and you can't become aleader by just studying it.
(12:06):
You actually have to do it and it's kind of like being a driver's ed teacher.
You got to have to get behind the wheel with some students that don't know what they'redoing.
And so I think that's why it's costly, you know, but anyhow, it's fun, but it is aprocess.
(12:27):
So if, let's say there's a youth pastor, a youth minister listening and they're in church,they've got 15, 20 kids maybe, and they're looking at the room and going, gosh, I need to
figure out how to start developing these leaders.
Where would you recommend they start?
(12:48):
Where does that look like to start from nothing?
That's great because I think that's, that's, can I get on my soapbox for a minute maybe?
And, I think most youth workers, I think most youth workers look at their group and theysay, who are my responsible kids?
And I'll make them leaders.
(13:08):
Who are my juniors and seniors?
And I'll make them leaders.
I don't think our job is to make responsible kids leaders.
I think they pretty much are.
I think our job is to take non-leaders and make them leaders.
And so, you know, where I would start with that is I would start with students' favoritesubject, which is themselves.
(13:28):
And I think that we value leadership in a lot of ways.
The students that I still interact with don't value leadership as much as we do.
They value service in a lot of ways, or impact or influence, you could say it lot ofdifferent ways.
But I think I would start with their favorite subject because God has made them unique.
(13:49):
And I think most students have a sneaky suspicion they're unique, but they can't prove it.
Like, because they all dress alike, they talk alike, they go to the same school, right?
But they do have a sneaky suspicion that they're unique.
And so one of the places I like to start with any student is helping them understand howGod has wired them, how God has gifted them.
(14:09):
And I tend to find that if I start by talking about leadership, they're really not asinterested.
But if I start talking about them, and they can discover if they're a doer, thinker,mover, or a relator, they can discover if they're relationally based or if they're task
oriented.
They can discover how they interact in large groups and small groups and how they caninteract when they're bored.
(14:32):
When they start to learn about that, then...
They start to, I see the light bulb go on and a lot of them are like, Doug, tell me more.
This is a fascinating topic you've got me on here.
It's myself, right?
And as I begin to help them understand themselves, I can then introduce this concept,which I really love, which is burden plus passion plus vision equals mission.
(14:56):
I don't want to just tell students these are the giftings and these are the wirings youhave.
I want to tell them that they're made for something, that God has made them
can you, will you say that one more time?
Yeah, I wanna help them understand this idea that burden, what breaks your heart, passion,what you love to do, and vision, what comes from God, these are the breadcrumbs that equal
(15:20):
your mission in life.
And I think that, you know, that you've been a youth worker forever, you know, thestudents come up to you usually in their junior and senior year and they say to you,
Where do you think I should go to college?
Or what do you think I should do with my life?
Or should I get into military?
They ask us these questions, right?
And I'm always dumbfounded by that until I started really thinking about what are thebreadcrumbs?
(15:45):
What are the clues?
What are some things that really help students understand what they're made for?
And I really came down to its burden, things that really break your heart, things you wantto fix in this world, passion, things you want to love to do, and then vision.
And vision really comes, Jody, from looking at how God answers your prayers.
(16:05):
That's really, think, God is opening and closing doors and windows and whatever you got.
And He's directing us.
And if we look at what we're praying for and how He answers our prayer, I put those threethings together and I find mission.
what I want students to really know is that that mission will be the most fun, satisfying,joyful experience of their life.
(16:30):
And I know most students tend to think that life is valuable when you get the biggest car,the biggest house, the biggest bank account, right?
But you and I both know that that's not true, right?
And they're going to come to understand that.
But I want them to come to understand it before 40.
I want them to understand it when they can still make choices with their life.
(16:50):
Like they can still change the trajectory of their life and not be influenced by what theworld says, but maybe the way God has created and made them.
Because I got to tell you, I think maybe one of the most disappointing things is that whenI talk about this and an adult will come up to me and say, Doug, life has just
overburdened me.
(17:11):
I can't actually change what I'm doing now, even though I know I'm made for somethingelse.
I can't change because I got a mortgage.
I got all these things going on.
I got this job, this career, and I can't do anything, right?
So that's what breaks my heart a little bit is seeing people that are in the wrong spotand they're frustrated by it.
(17:32):
They feel like they're not really doing all that they can do and be all that they can beif you want to use an old marine commercial.
you know what I mean?
But that's what I want.
I want our students to know very early on that they're unique.
God has made them really special.
He loves them.
And if I can use an old, old term.
(17:55):
he has a wonderful plan for their life.
and, I don't, I don't like evangelical isms that much, but, but, but you know what I mean,right?
I mean, they, he's got a plan to use them.
And I think this, and when you have this perspective, then you don't want to just say onlycertain kids can be leaders.
Now you want to say every kid can be a leader, right?
(18:17):
Now we, we want this experience for every kid.
And I think that's why God, God didn't make some of our students and say,
There's no mission for them.
didn't say that, right?
He's like, he's got something for everyone.
And I want them, I want them to understand how he's prepared them.
Do you think that, would you say that some kids are born with more of a tendency towardsleadership?
(18:50):
Like more of a natural born leader?
This is a question.
I think leadership can be learned, but I do think some people are born with the naturalspiritual gift of leadership.
I call it the King David gift, right?
And there are students that are born with it because we see it listed in the New Testamentunder gifts that the Holy Spirit gives.
(19:10):
So I do believe that, but I also think that leadership
is a set, what leadership actually is, it's applying a set of principles like focusprecedes success, like communication that counts, like problem solving, conflict
resolution, navigating obstacles, communicating clearly, compassionately, consistently.
(19:34):
I think there are principles that we can apply that will allow us to be good leaders.
And I think every student can learn those principles and can apply them depending on thesituation.
But I do believe that there are some people that are really just gifted by the Holy Spiritto lead.
Here's the other thing I believe, if you'll give me a second.
(19:57):
I believe that being a leadership mimic will never work for anybody.
I don't think I can be John Maxwell.
I don't think I could be Andy Stanley or pick any other big name leader.
And I think that sometimes when we read their books, we think to ourselves, I can, I'mgoing to try to do that.
And it becomes frustrating for us.
It won't work to be a leadership mimic, a leader mimic.
(20:20):
You really need to discover who you are.
You really need to discover how you're wired, how you're really gifted for ministry.
And then here's my line.
You got to be okay with it.
I meet a lot of leaders aren't okay with their gifting and their wiring and
And they try to do, they try to be and do something different because they like the waythat their hero does it.
(20:46):
Right.
And, and that becomes a frustration for them.
And I think this is where we get into a lot of, we have a lot of frustrated Christianleaders because they haven't been okay with how they're gifted and how they're wired.
Yeah, that's good.
You know what I found?
I don't know if you would agree with this, so you're welcome to tell me I'm wrong.
(21:09):
But it feels like when I look at the kids who've come through our student ministries overthe years, the kids that those naturally gifted leaders, man, they are the troublemakers.
Like they are the punks.
They just have this way of pulling and gravitating.
(21:31):
everybody to them and I think at some point, you know, I learned to look and go, man, if Ican just get that kid running at the right thing, they're going to change the world.
But I don't know if that's true for everybody.
no, I think that's totally true.
And so let me kind of just, I'm totally with you on this.
(21:53):
So I think the first step in leadership development is building a deep relationship with astudent and helping them understand how God is using them already.
Second thing is doing assessments with them to find out how they're wired, how they'regifted.
The third step I see in leadership development
is this doing and being side of leadership.
(22:15):
Students love the doing side of leadership.
They love to do a project.
They love to lead the games.
They love to do something, right?
But it's the being side and the being side is what you're talking about.
So I like to teach empathy.
And what I mean by empathy is I, I, I, I describe empathy as, remaining others focused,caring about what others think and remaining others focused, which I think
(22:40):
is the new leadership fad in Christianity today.
We went through this timeframe where we love the entrepreneurial leader and take themountain leader and then all these pastors started having moral failures.
I live in the Chicagoland area, so I got a couple of big ones right around me here.
And now I see pastors being fired for just being mean, just being mean.
(23:06):
Now, Bill Hybels was mean every day and he...
and he was rewarded for it, right?
Now you be mean and you're, right?
So I think empathy is something that we need to teach our students and to help them, youknow, don't hold grudges.
Don't dominate the conversation.
Questions of other people.
(23:28):
And when I actually sit down with students, I have this chart that I use on empathy, whatempathy is and what it isn't.
When I sit down and talk to students about this,
This is usually their response, which is surprising to me.
It's not, Doug, that's not me.
It's usually, Doug, I've never seen this before.
What are you talking about?
(23:49):
I don't think our students are really taught much about empathy and about being othersfocused and staying focused on what others need.
But it's really interesting.
When I say to students, hey, what do you think about this type of leadership?
And I draw a diamond.
and I put the leader at the top and they tell everybody what to do.
(24:11):
Students go, I hate that kind of leadership.
And I would agree, it's command and control, right?
I flip it upside down.
I put the triangle upside down and I say, what about the leader being down here andserving up to people?
Students will say to me in a second, I love that kind of leadership.
And I'm like, great, because that's kind of Jesus's style and that's gonna be what we'refocus on, right?
(24:34):
But when I talk about empathy,
In relationships, most students go, I don't know, I'm struggling because think about astudent's life.
It's half online and it's half in reality and in the reality part is trying to besomething you're not just as much as you are online.
It's a little easier online.
(24:55):
And I think that they become so self-absorbed that they can't think of other people.
So I think one of the best things that we can do with those naturally born leaders
is really help them understand the empathy side of being a leader, the being side of beinga leader.
And I think that's the hardest side to learn.
It's been the hardest side for me to learn.
(25:17):
I really like the command and control when I'm in command and control.
Don't we all?
But I think that I think the most powerful leadership I see today and I think the futureof leadership is really empathy.
I think leaders who are empathetic towards others and keep others their focus, I thinkthey'll have huge impact.
(25:46):
What are some consistent mistakes that you see youth workers making when they're trying todo and kind of introduce leadership in their student ministries?
yeah, that's a great question.
I think some of the things, and I'll just mention a few quickly, but then I'll focus in onone.
I think they know that they've got to help students understand what leadership is, andthen I think they understand that they need to have students discover how they're wired
(26:15):
and how they're gifted.
So what they typically do is they define leadership, and then they do some assessments,and then after that, they don't know what to do to move forward.
read a book by CS Lewis, do John Maxwell's 21st Influential Laws.
They tend to stop right there, the development.
And I think what most youth workers don't know how to do is they don't know how to set upa experience for students to really get the most out of it.
(26:46):
what I, I'll just explain it a little bit here.
What I like to do is I like to think of a training plan once I put a student in a role.
So let's say I put a student in the role of
They're going to run all the games at the fall retreat, right?
And I've given them that role.
Well, then I'm going to put together a training plan.
Like what do they need to know to be able to do that?
They need to know how to be able to calculate the people and the resources.
(27:09):
They need to be able to know how to engage those students that never want to play a game.
They need to know how to sell the game.
We as youth workers, that's our greatest strength, selling games, right?
We make it like this lava that you're about to cross is the hottest lava.
ever seen.
You know what I mean?
They need to learn how to do that.
They need to learn how to evaluate the performance.
(27:30):
So I create a training plan and then I walk through on how to do that.
Maybe for casting the vision, I have them stand on stage when no students are around inpractice.
Or maybe I take them to Target and we walk the toy aisle and we talk about resources andpeople that we need.
Or I'm going to put together some sort of training plan.
(27:50):
Maybe I have them write out all of the rules, whatever it is.
But I think that's where youth workers make a lot of mistakes is they put students inroles and they go best of luck.
And they forget about the training component to this.
And then the second part of this, the second thing I see is that they don't get theexperience right.
(28:11):
And let me tell you what I mean by that.
I think there's three kinds of experiences for student leaders.
One is comfort zone.
They end up in a comfort zone where they're able to do whatever it is.
whatever role they're able to do it easily in their own strength and ability.
I think then there's the growth zone.
I think the growth zone is 10 % outside of the comfort zone.
(28:32):
What exactly does that mean?
I have no idea, but that sounded good, didn't it, when I said it, like just 10 % outsideof It means it's outside of their comfort zone somewhat, right?
And then there's the panic zone.
There's the panic zone where they feel overwhelmed and they say these words that they havememorized, I quit.
Right?
They quit very quickly, right?
(28:54):
So what a youth worker needs to be able to do with a good leadership experience for astudent is he or she needs to be able to move them out of the comfort zone, but keep them
only in the growth zone and not make it so challenging that it takes them to the paniczone.
And this is a mastery.
This is this I've made so many mistakes here, Jody.
(29:14):
I can just begin to tell you how many mistakes I've made.
But.
But this is the way I define it.
Comfort zone, the student has no issue.
Failure is not an option.
They're going to do it, no problem, right?
Growth zone is where they're a little nervous and option is possible.
Failure is possible, right?
And then panic zone is failure for sure.
(29:35):
And so when a student is in the growth zone, I noticed two things.
They have a dependency on God and a reliance on team.
They've prayed about it.
They know God's with them.
They're also relying on some other team members to help them.
When they're usually in the panic zone, they're usually all alone thinking they could doit, but they really can't do it.
(29:58):
Right.
And so the growth zone is the place where you really want to keep them.
I traditionally, when I'm working with students, I ask myself every day, are we in thecomfort zone?
Are we in the growth zone or have we reached the panic zone?
Like, you know, I do mission, we do mission trips all the time here, and this is a goodquestion to ask on every.
every day on a missions trip, right?
(30:19):
And the answer is oftentimes panic zone.
But you know what I mean?
so I really want, like when a student leader runs up to me and is like, Doug, we don'thave what we need.
And I'm like, okay, have we prayed about it?
And two, who can help you?
That's always my response because that's where I want them to be.
And I want them not to have a false sense of, I want them to have confidence, but I wantthem to have a false sense of confidence.
(30:45):
So I do want them to be able to humble themselves to say, I need other people and I needGod.
And I feel like that's a really good place.
And so if you ask me what it is that I see youth workers missing as I think they'remissing this idea of creating a training and developing the leader before they just give
them the role.
(31:07):
And I also noticed that they don't think through comfort zone, growth zone, panic zone.
Yeah, think when I think back to things that I've done wrong, I think one of the thingsthat I've often failed to do, and it's because I didn't think through it on my end first,
I think I wasn't clear on the expectations.
(31:28):
Like I might say, I want you to lead a game and we'll talk through how to lead the gamemaybe.
But I'm not clear of like, no, I want you to pick out the game.
I want you to give me a list of what you need for the game.
want you to, you know, and so I...
I love what you're there because I think it's easy to overlook those.
(31:49):
You just get them in there and you're like, they've got it.
They're our leader.
They're in charge of it.
And then we just leave them to fail.
And it almost has the opposite effect at that point because we've crushed their confidenceand embarrassed them in front of everybody.
terribly.
You know, I can't tell you how many times youth workers have walked up to me at aconference and said, Doug, I've listened to you talk.
(32:09):
you know, I went back, I went back to the youth group and I put everybody in charge ofsomething.
We had 35 different roles.
put everybody in charge and I said, go.
And it didn't work.
It didn't work.
And I always say, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not what I said.
But believe you me, I get this a lot.
What I said was principles plus experiences.
plus debriefing equals transformational leadership development.
(32:32):
And you can't have one without the other, right?
You can't have the experience and no principles and you can't have principles and noexperience otherwise you'll never learn anything.
So it's the combination of these things that make for a leadership development experience.
Yeah.
Would you recommend, like, if you're doing a more formal student leadership program, is ita, and are you inviting everybody to be a part of that or are you kind of limiting that,
(33:04):
capping that?
Like, I guess that may depend on context.
What is your thoughts on that?
I'm going to kind of blow up your question here is I just don't like leadership.
I don't, I don't like student leadership teams.
I don't like this fill out an application and somebody's in and somebody's out and thenmom and dad are angry.
(33:26):
I don't like, 12 kids on a team.
And it's kind of like the last supper.
We all sit around together and, know, and, you know, I don't, I, cause what ends uphappening to be totally honest with you is.
We usually put juniors and seniors who are really busy and already overwhelmed, right?
And they start the fall strong on the student leadership team, but by Christmas we can'tfind them.
(33:50):
They're applying to colleges, they're doing college visits, and it's a disaster.
And typically on those teams, and I've observed a lot of teams, there's three studentsthat do everything and the other nine hide.
And it's a horrible.
And it's usually just project based.
(34:12):
Again, the doing side of leadership.
So I don't like it.
So what I like is leadership labs.
And this is what I mean by that.
I mean that I'm going to pick, I'm just going to go and invite one to three students andsay, hey, Tommy, I notice that God's at work in you and you're, you're, you're a great
communicator and you've got some real compassion for your friends.
(34:34):
And I'd love to invite you to work with me for two months.
And then lead a part of our fall retreat this year.
And it's, it's a big commitment.
It's, I'm going to need you to come to church a couple of times a week.
I know you're a football player and I know in the spring, you don't have the same level ofcommitment that you do in the fall.
So I think you might have the time for this, but I'd love for you to come join me.
(34:57):
I'm going to be doing a bunch of discipleship with you.
I'm going to do a bunch of training.
And, and as soon as you lead this event, then what I'm going to do is I'm going to, we'regoing to meet one more time to brief and then we're done.
Would you ever be interested in that?
Tommy says, yeah, I'd be interested in that.
I'm like, OK, let me talk to your parents.
Let me make sure everybody's on the same page.
We get on the same page with the parents.
(35:18):
And then I'm going to run a leadership lab with Tommy.
And I might grab Susie, too.
And Tommy and Susie don't know each other real well.
But I'm going to grab Susie.
I'm going to ask her to do that.
And I'm going to bring them in.
Because when I bring two students in, this is where it gets fun in leadership development.
Because they're going to approach everything differently.
And now they're going to have to.
(35:38):
be compassionate towards each other and learn how to interact with each other.
So I was like, I'll do a lot of ones, but I like twos and threes too, because then I canpick them and all that.
So then I bring them in, I do my try, we pick a role for them after we do some, you know,some assessing, we pick a role for them and then I create my training and I get them
(35:59):
ready.
And I'm discipling as well too.
I'm talking through what's going on in their lives and.
And we get ready and then they run the event.
We do a big debrief.
know, what are some things we did well?
What are some things we would do differently?
And what are some things that we learned that we want to say we learned these things asleaders?
And then I'm going to bless them and send them on their way.
(36:21):
And I might ask them to be in a leadership lab two years later or I don't know what, butwhat I like about leadership labs is I can run a couple of them at a time.
I can kind of pick and choose the students that I want to go after.
And I can adjust the length of it based on their busy schedules, right?
I can make it fit for them.
(36:42):
And if I get a few other adults doing this at the same time, we could be running aleadership lab out of our worship team.
We could be running a leadership lab out of the Snapshack.
We could be running a leadership lab in small groups and maybe getting some of our...
our students that are thinking about a calling in ministry working with some of our juniorhires, we could be doing a lot of things with leadership labs and it's built more for the
(37:10):
busy student.
It's built around what adult volunteer feels like they're competent in that area and it'sshort term and it's focused.
And I really like for leadership development, leadership labs versus leadership teams.
That's where I'm at.
Yeah.
I have never, and I'm listening to you talk and I'm like, okay, I'm not feeling so badnow.
(37:35):
I feel like there's a lot of things I've done wrong over 25 years of this thing.
I have never, ever been able to successfully put together to any degree of success on mypart, a formalized leadership, student leadership team that accomplished much.
And I'm looking around and I'm seeing everybody else and I'm like, am I just not, maybe Ijust don't know how to do this.
(38:02):
But so we tend to, what we've always kind of defaulted back to is, yeah, that's right, I'mjust talking about it.
We end up, I usually end up finding some really key volunteers who are solid in theirfaith, high capacity folks, and then myself, and it almost becomes a little more of
(38:22):
mentoring for us.
where we're kind of pouring in, investing into some students, walking alongside them,trying to partner with parents and that.
That feels to me, it's a little more organic at times and a little messy to your pointeven earlier, but it has felt more successful in accomplishing something meaningful.
(38:43):
But yeah, just, for years I keep looking around going, what the heck is wrong with me?
Like, why can't I now figure this out?
It's not working.
How do you, Doug, how do you, like, I was just gonna ask, how do you, yeah, absolutely,please.
So a few years ago, I wrote a free ebook on the Leader Trek's website.
Just go to the search bar at the top right hand corner and search re-imagine studentleadership.
(39:08):
And you can get a free copy of the ebook where I wrote out how to do these leadership labsand how they work in comparison to student leadership teams.
I'm not against student leadership teams.
Boy, I think they would tar and feather me in some places if I said I was.
I'm not.
I just think if you want to do more leadership development,
(39:29):
then I think leadership labs are a little more effective.
Sorry, I just wanted to get that resource out there.
No, you're good.
I love that, for sure.
And I will link to that.
I'll try to find that and link to that in the show notes as well so folks can grab it.
How do you do the leadership lab thing where you're approaching students and not beaccused or kind of take on this, Doug's playing favorites again because he's only pulling
(39:57):
his one or two kids?
Like how would you, how do you, because I know that's a thing.
Every, I mean everybody in youth ministry, you've been a youth pastor for two months,you've been accused of favoritism.
Sermon on Sunday at church was on a James 2 on favoritism.
I think that that's the thing about leadership labs is that you can easily pick thestudents that you would normally not pick.
(40:23):
And I think that's a challenge for us because it's easy to pick that kid who always showsup, who always wants to get a coffee with you and would hang out with you and you really
enjoy them.
So that's what I love about leadership labs.
This is the way I think about them.
And this is not the right way or wrong way.
I like to combine students that don't know each other, which usually solves my problemhere, right?
(40:44):
Because favoritism is something that I do out of convenience, not something that Ioftentimes do for any other reason.
It's just easier, right?
So I gotta break that.
So what I usually try to do with a leadership lab is grab one student I know well and onestudent I don't know, or students that don't know each other.
(41:06):
And I also ask,
my adult volunteers, who do you think in your group, your small group, has got leadershippotential, even if they're misbehaving, even if that behavior is negative behavior?
I want to know their name.
Because I like the negative behavior kid as a leader.
You mentioned this earlier, right?
Like a lot of them are leading, but they're leading in a negative way, right?
(41:28):
I love to sit down with that student and say, hey, I see God at work in you, maybe in away that you don't see.
Like I see people following you.
They're following you to the pit of hell, but they're still following you.
So let me, let me actually, let me actually spend some time with you, maybe influencingthem in a positive way.
(41:49):
Would you ever be interested in that?
Or I see God at work in you.
You're an amazing communicator.
Or you actually solve problems for people.
Now you're, you're, you're using this creativity in a pretty negative way, but I still seeGod at work in you for this.
Would you ever be interested in?
And what I have found is that when I use that line, I see God at work in you.
(42:11):
Would you ever be interested in getting into a deeper relationship with me for leadershipdevelopment?
I find that I've never had a student say to me, no, thank you.
I've had a student every now and then say, timing wise, it might not work.
But I find that students don't have enough people in their life telling them what they'regreat at.
(42:33):
So one of the things that I've always loved
do I have this tool called the leadership pathway and it's how you develop a student intoa leader and what I love to do with that tool is start with by telling students what I see
their potential is in 10 years.
Hey I just want to tell you I don't know if anybody's ever told you this but if you wereto get into a mentoring relationship with me on leadership development I believe your
(42:55):
potential in 10 years is this and I find that students are like wait a minute what how doyou how do you figure that?
And then I began to tell them what I see God doing in their life.
And I, that's my favorite part of leadership development, by the way, if you can't tell bythe excitement in my voice, but that part is where I get to really share with a student.
(43:16):
I think you're awesome.
I think you're super unique.
I think you're super special.
And the problem is, is that we tend to reserve that for the responsible kid.
And if you can tell from my thinking, I'm not always in love with the responsible kid.
The responsible kid is great.
But the responsible kid usually already has five extracurricular activities.
(43:37):
They already have six adults pouring into them.
They got all these things.
What about that student that doesn't have all that?
Maybe they've got an addiction problem.
Maybe they've got a behavioral issue.
Maybe things at home are terrible.
But I think that we have said to that student, leadership is not for you.
And I think that's a huge mistake.
(43:59):
You know, as you're saying that, and we've mentioned this a bunch about the responsiblekid, I'm trying to think through scripture of someone that God used in a pretty major way
that would have been the responsible kid.
And everyone I'm thinking of was a mess.
(44:19):
Like, they were the troublemaker or unqualified or invisible.
Right?
And so...
one that was a decent, responsible kid, because he was responsible for the sheep.
the one.
he was like, his dad didn't even care enough to invite him to the party when they werepicking the king, right?
So it's just, it's just interesting.
(44:41):
think, I think too, Doug, as I'm just thinking, I'm processing out loud here as we'retalking, like, I love taking the troubled kid because I've watched God do so many things
in those kids over the years.
And I do think,
that very few people speak into them.
So when you're saying, hey, here's where I see you in 10 years, man, you're casting visionin that student's life that they are not yet able to see.
(45:11):
But because you're further down the road in life and you've seen what God does instudents, you're able to say that to them.
It's the same thing I do with a volunteer.
Like when I'm training folks on how to recruit volunteers, I never say,
Like I would never say, hey Doug, listen, we've got this seventh grade group of boys andman, I just don't know what we're gonna do.
(45:36):
We can't really find anybody.
I mean, they're a good group.
They smell a little funny.
But man, I just wonder if you'd be willing to come and just serve as their small groupleader.
Because if not, I don't know if we're even gonna be able to have a group for these.
Like that's a terrible pitch, you know?
But what I am gonna say to you is,
(45:56):
I mean, I'd love to find a time to talk to you about our seventh grade boys because, I seesuch potential in these guys.
I can see God already stirring in their heart and their life something special.
And then what I really think is that God might be calling you to come alongside them andbe a part of what he's going to do in their life.
That's a very different pitch.
(46:19):
And yet I think it's more helpful for the leader and for the student because I'm able topaint.
picture of what the future looks like for them and they're gonna be way more excited.
If anybody agrees to that first pitch, they're gonna volunteer maybe a year if they makeit the year and they're out because they're just plugging a hole.
That second pitch, man, they're in it.
(46:40):
We've raised the sales, right?
We've pointed to the horizon.
They're in it to the end and they're gonna be aware of how God is working because I've putthat on their radar.
And I think what you're saying is similar for the students.
Love that, love that.
Yeah.
Sunday morning, I came out of church into the lobby and I saw Sean across the way was inmy first small group.
(47:03):
He's 47 years old.
I went over, I put my arm around him and he's like, doogie, how's it going today?
And it was like, were, it was like we were back in the, and it's, that's the kind ofrelationship you have, you know, 38 years later.
And, you know, it's, that's worth it.
(47:24):
I mean, that's worth it, right?
The long horizon, I like that.
I like that a lot.
Yeah, it's funny.
mean, you've done this way longer than me.
But I'm 25 years in.
It's pretty rare.
Like every now and then, every few weeks, I get a message from a student that you don'texpect.
(47:48):
Usually comes at a real good time when you're just kind of really frustrated or bummed.
And it's almost always the kid you don't expect.
I for sure you'd be in jail by now.
Like, is this a thing?
And it's the kid that you didn't think was paying attention or it was, you know, I thinkit's the beauty of longevity and investing and being present and showing up and so much of
(48:12):
student ministry is just showing up, right?
Just keep showing up.
So I love that.
Well.
time.
I like it when they screw up in their 20s and 30s, but then late 30s they call you andsay, hey, can I talk to you?
I love it when they come around the second time.
you're actually smarter than I gave you credit for, you know, that's kind of what they'rethinking.
(48:37):
Like all those times I wasn't sure you knew.
You knew.
Well, Doug, if folks wanted to connect with you more and find out more about what you do,what's the best way for them to do that?
We have two main websites, Leadertreks.org and DeepDiscipleship.com.
(48:58):
But if you just, I'm a youth guy.
I'd love to talk youth ministry.
And so one is if you call our main 1-800 number, what I don't know, I don't even know whatit is to be totally honest with you.
You're gonna talk to David or TJ, two youth workers.
They're both 15 plus year youth guys who are now on our team and they'll do anything tohelp you.
(49:19):
They're not gonna try to sell you anything.
They'll do anything to help you.
But you can also,
You can also reach out to me.
I'm Doug at LeaderTrek.com, pretty easy to know.
And you can reach out to me and I'd love to schedule a Zoom with you or talk or anything.
I do these Refuel Retreats around the country, kind of three-day intensives ondiscipleship and leadership development.
(49:44):
If you ever want to go deeper into these topics, that would be another great way, but justreach out to me or...
I'm on Messenger a lot, Facebook Messenger.
I don't, what's the one on Instagram?
I don't really ever look at direct messages on Instagram.
I'm old.
But, yeah.
(50:05):
But I'd love to be able to talk with you and I'd love to do it.
And honestly, we're a nonprofit.
We don't exist to sell you stuff.
We're really trying to help youth workers make disciples and develop leaders, period.
Well Doug, I've really enjoyed our time.
I can't thank you enough for coming on and I thank everyone listening.
(50:28):
It's evident in your heart for students, student ministry, youth pastors, youth ministers,not just leadership, but obviously it's a huge component of it.
so, man, I just want to say thank you for all you're doing and all you've done.
I mentioned to you before we jumped on to record how much I've personally benefited fromwhat you've done and shared over the years from a distance.
(50:50):
And so,
I'm just super thankful and grateful to have guys like you in the trenches there kind ofresourcing and equipping, encouraging churches and youth pastors.
So man, thanks.
Thanks a bunch.
Thanks for jumping on today.
I appreciate it.
I know folks will follow up and connect.
There's no doubt.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Love talking.
Love talking youth ministry and leadership development.
(51:15):
All right, Doug, we'll catch you later.
So how great is Doug, right?
I mean, you just, you hear him, you hear his heart for youth ministers, youth pastors,youth ministry, student leadership, just a wealth of knowledge in that guy.
Appreciate again him and his time to come on the show.
(51:37):
Make sure you head over to Leader Treks and check out all of the things that they havethere, all the helps, their desire and heart, which I think you hear as he's talking, is
really to come alongside you and help you in whatever way he can and encourage.
And so they get lots of things there to help.
to help you, whether it's student leadership or otherwise.
So make sure you head over there.
Again, show notes today, thelongerhall.com slash episode 140.
(52:01):
You'll find all the links and things there that you need.
Make sure you are on the mailing list, the Facebook group, all the things that you say.
Right, subscribe and follow, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, great episode today.
I'm excited for the ones coming down the pipe.
So make sure you are.
looking for those as they come your way because we have some great things coming.
(52:23):
Hey, thanks for all you do.
Thanks for being part of the longer haul.
Stay at it.
You're making a difference in the lives of your students.
I know you are.
And so be encouraged.
Thrive where you are for sure.
And we will catch you later.
I don't, I don't like student leadership teams.
I don't like this fill out an application and somebody's in and somebody's out and thenmom and dad are angry.
I don't like, 12 kids on a team.
And it's kind of like the last supper.
We all sit around together and, know, and, you know, I don't, I, cause what ends uphappening to be totally honest with you is.
(00:22):
We usually put juniors and seniors who are really busy and already overwhelmed, right?
And they start the fall strong on the student leadership team, but by Christmas we can'tfind them.
They're applying to colleges, they're doing college visits, and it's a disaster.
And typically on those teams, and I've observed a lot of teams, there's three studentsthat do everything and the other nine hide.
(00:46):
And it's a horrible.
And it's usually just project based.
Again, the doing side of leadership.
So
Well, hey, hey, everybody.
Welcome to the show today.
Thanks for tuning in and listening wherever you are and wherever this finds you.
Thanks for making this podcast today a part of your day.
(01:09):
Make sure you're subscribed and following where you listen.
If you've not left a rating or review recently or ever, I'd love for you to do that.
It helps others find the show.
Make sure that the show continues to reach and encourage youth pastors.
Hopefully you're on the mailing list over at the longer hall comm and in the Facebookgroup, but if not, make sure you jump into those as well Listen, we we're gonna we've got
(01:32):
a great episode today and I've told a couple folks since recording the interview aboutthis conversation today every now and then you record an episode or an interview with
somebody and You just walk away feeling like man.
I could have talked to them all day long and that's true today
We're jumping into the topic of student leadership, which is a really important topic instudent ministry.
(01:57):
I think most youth pastors know that we want to have student leaders in studentleadership, but we're not quite sure what to do with it or we haven't really found a way
that we love to do.
so Doug Franklin jumps on today from Leader Treks.
And if you've not met Doug or been around Doug, just an amazing guy, has done youthministry forever and loves
(02:20):
student pastors, youth ministers, youth leaders, loves student leadership, and has a lotto share and say about that topic.
You're going to hear his heart for sure come out as he talks about this, but just somereally, really practical helps and takeaways as well as some great resources for you
(02:40):
today.
So I know you're going to enjoy the conversation.
I know you're going to love Doug.
Just an amazing guy and just so thankful for him.
to give some time to jump on to the show today.
All the links, resources that we mentioned, and there are quite a few, you can find on theshow notes page over at thelongerhaul.com slash episode 140.
So longerhaul.com slash episode 140.
(03:03):
So make sure you head over there and check out all of those things.
anyway, hopefully we got a pen and paper ready.
There's gonna be a lot of things I think that you're gonna wanna make note of if you'redriving.
Don't do that while you're driving.
But hopefully.
Either way, you'll come away some really strong takeaways.
And I think this is really going to help you strengthen your students and your studentleadership in your context there.
(03:25):
enjoy the interview today.
We'll jump in here today with Doug Franklin from Leader Tricks.
(03:48):
Well, hey, Doug, thanks.
Thanks for giving some time and jumping on today.
I know we've we've tried to do this a few times and just my schedule, my health stuff kindof maybe derailed that.
I appreciate you hanging in and jumping in.
I'm I'm really excited to jump in and talk about our topic, particularly when it comes tojust student leadership.
(04:09):
In fact, I just mentioned right before we jumped on, I think everybody realized it'simportant, but nobody's really sure how to do it.
So.
I'm excited to have you come in and teach us.
I'm excited to learn today.
I know I'll be taking a ton of notes on my side.
Before we get to that, maybe just take a second for folks who may not be familiar withyou, introduce yourself, your journey a little bit, what you do, and why you would even be
(04:35):
the one to talk on this.
I started at Leader Treks in 1994.
And, so I started as a youth worker in 87 as a long time ago, man, long time ago.
And, talk about the long haul.
but, I, I, I came out of college, I studied youth ministry, but I didn't really want to bea youth worker, youth pastor.
(04:58):
Let me say it that way.
So I got a job and my church invited me to come and volunteer and I gave all the excuses.
And then they had this one argument that I couldn't fort, which was you owe us.
And I did.
I grown up in a great church, great youth workers, great volunteers, great small groups.
I did, I owed them.
So I said, how much do I owe you?
(05:20):
was how arrogant I was as a 22 year old.
And they're like one year.
And so I was like, I could do one year.
So I did one year.
I played WrestleMania with my junior high boys.
put a square down in masking tape on the floor.
And I said, every week, I said, get me out of this square and you win.
And it was WrestleMania.
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And then I did five minutes of Jesus at the end.
It was terrible.
It was the worst youth ministry in the world.
And I remember near the end of the year, one of the other volunteers, Chuck, said to me,Doug, are you gonna come back next year?
And I said, no, Chuck, I just had to do one year.
I got my one year done.
Chuck said this to me.
He's like, why don't you start asking the boys in your group if they know Jesus?
(06:03):
as their Lord and Savior.
And I'm like, Chuck, I grew up in Wheaton, Illinois.
I'm like, every kid in my group's dad was a professor at Wheaton College, you and I waslike, Christian school.
And I was like, okay, Chuck, make you happy, I'll do it, you know.
So at the end, was like, boys, anybody wanna know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
Two boys raised their hands, and I literally said this, you gotta be kidding me.
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You gotta be kidding me.
I was a great evangelist.
Greg Steer could learn so much from me.
But I was hooked then.
That hooked me.
And it wasn't long before I got rid of the square and got the Bible in there.
And we started going to town.
so that's what really captured my heart.
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And six years later, I left the secular world and became a full-time youth worker.
But one of the things that I noticed in youth ministry is every time I set the bar, mystudents would jump over it.
So I started playing with it and I started requiring more and offering more and asking formore.
And they just kept jumping over and over and over.
And I was like, how high can I get this thing?
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And then I realized there was, my students loved owning it.
They loved being in charge.
They loved making decisions.
loved, so I started looking for leadership development resources.
I, know,
There's only one at the time, you specialty.
So I called them, they were super nice.
They were like, that's interesting.
I'm not really sure that's part of the youth ministry.
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And that was a fair answer.
I'm not blaming you.
That's a fair answer, right?
And God began to lay on my heart like, hey, Doug, why don't you start making resources foryouth workers?
So I did, I started making resources.
And it wasn't long before I started asking myself the question.
How would I teach leadership development if I wanted to teach it to somebody else?
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Would I stand in front of a whiteboard?
And the answer was no for me.
The answer was I'd teach it through a vehicle that youth workers were already using.
So I started offering these leadership development mission trips where I took a missionstrip and I took every aspect of the trip and I turned it into a leadership laboratory.
And from there I really began to learn a lot about leadership and then I quickly learnedthat
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If you're gonna do leadership development, you need this element of discovery, discoveringhow you're wired, how you're shaped, how you're gifted.
And so I partnered with a guy named Dr.
Jim Galvin, who at the time was the leading expert on leadership development assessments.
And he and I wrote seven together in students language, biblically based, really great.
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And then from there, I started putting them into curriculum.
And then in the early 2000s,
came along, Campus Crusade came along and asked me to start training their staff in LatinAmerica.
And I was like, dude, I'm a kid guy.
don't go to Latin America, first of all.
So they just begged me to come to Bolivia and do some training for them.
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And so I did.
And I didn't really have my material in training form.
it was a challenge for me.
made a lot of mistakes.
But they were so impressed with what they saw.
They signed a 10-year contract with us to
licensed the name and for me to travel to Bolivia twice a year to train their top endstaff.
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This wasn't just college kids because they wanted to get into private universities andthey couldn't with the name Campus Crusade, but they could with the name Leader Trucks and
offering leadership development.
they saw a lot of university students come to know the Lord.
And so even today,
They still do training every week in Cuba, leader tracks training.
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That's still all over Latin America.
They even signed a contract with the Ecuadorian Navy to do leadership development withleader tracks.
Now, the first thing I said is Ecuador has a Navy.
That was the first thing I said.
But it spread that way.
And that helped me because I went from thinking about how do I do leadership developmentwith the student in front of me to how do I
(10:07):
how do I train somebody else to do leadership development?
And that was transformational for me.
And as one of those things that I think I brought into my life to help me grow.
So today, Leader Treks does trips, training, and curriculum.
We still offer mission trips.
We still do about a hundred and little over a hundred mission trips a year.
We do training all over the country.
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I was just in Colorado Springs last week training youth workers through our refuel events.
And then of course curriculum, which
Thousands of churches across the US use us for curriculum.
So for both discipleship and leadership.
So that's my journey kind of in a nutshell.
I love that and I love that it's not like when I hear you, what I hear you saying is thatthis thing you do is really born out of a passion in your life that God has stirred
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through your own working with students.
And I think in a world and today where it's so easy just to create content and curriculumjust to have and sell, I think the fact that it's born out of a conviction that was
kind of stirred in your own heart as a youth worker early on, man, that's impactful.
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That's impactful.
And so I appreciate that.
kind of dislike it when somebody just buys a piece of curriculum from us because I, behonest with you, I feel like it's very transactional and I feel like leadership
development is not a one.
You can't buy our big book, Student Leaders Start Here.
You can't buy that book and instantly make leaders.
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It's a process.
It involves principles, leadership principles that come from
the world and from scripture and it requires experiences.
They got to play the role of a leader.
So it's a process and that's I think that's a little bit of what's hard about it.
There's no silver bullet in leadership development and it's messy and you can't become aleader by just studying it.
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You actually have to do it and it's kind of like being a driver's ed teacher.
You got to have to get behind the wheel with some students that don't know what they'redoing.
And so I think that's why it's costly, you know, but anyhow, it's fun, but it is aprocess.
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So if, let's say there's a youth pastor, a youth minister listening and they're in church,they've got 15, 20 kids maybe, and they're looking at the room and going, gosh, I need to
figure out how to start developing these leaders.
Where would you recommend they start?
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Where does that look like to start from nothing?
That's great because I think that's, that's, can I get on my soapbox for a minute maybe?
And, I think most youth workers, I think most youth workers look at their group and theysay, who are my responsible kids?
And I'll make them leaders.
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Who are my juniors and seniors?
And I'll make them leaders.
I don't think our job is to make responsible kids leaders.
I think they pretty much are.
I think our job is to take non-leaders and make them leaders.
And so, you know, where I would start with that is I would start with students' favoritesubject, which is themselves.
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And I think that we value leadership in a lot of ways.
The students that I still interact with don't value leadership as much as we do.
They value service in a lot of ways, or impact or influence, you could say it lot ofdifferent ways.
But I think I would start with their favorite subject because God has made them unique.
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And I think most students have a sneaky suspicion they're unique, but they can't prove it.
Like, because they all dress alike, they talk alike, they go to the same school, right?
But they do have a sneaky suspicion that they're unique.
And so one of the places I like to start with any student is helping them understand howGod has wired them, how God has gifted them.
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And I tend to find that if I start by talking about leadership, they're really not asinterested.
But if I start talking about them, and they can discover if they're a doer, thinker,mover, or a relator, they can discover if they're relationally based or if they're task
oriented.
They can discover how they interact in large groups and small groups and how they caninteract when they're bored.
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When they start to learn about that, then...
They start to, I see the light bulb go on and a lot of them are like, Doug, tell me more.
This is a fascinating topic you've got me on here.
It's myself, right?
And as I begin to help them understand themselves, I can then introduce this concept,which I really love, which is burden plus passion plus vision equals mission.
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I don't want to just tell students these are the giftings and these are the wirings youhave.
I want to tell them that they're made for something, that God has made them
can you, will you say that one more time?
Yeah, I wanna help them understand this idea that burden, what breaks your heart, passion,what you love to do, and vision, what comes from God, these are the breadcrumbs that equal
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your mission in life.
And I think that, you know, that you've been a youth worker forever, you know, thestudents come up to you usually in their junior and senior year and they say to you,
Where do you think I should go to college?
Or what do you think I should do with my life?
Or should I get into military?
They ask us these questions, right?
And I'm always dumbfounded by that until I started really thinking about what are thebreadcrumbs?
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What are the clues?
What are some things that really help students understand what they're made for?
And I really came down to its burden, things that really break your heart, things you wantto fix in this world, passion, things you want to love to do, and then vision.
And vision really comes, Jody, from looking at how God answers your prayers.
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That's really, think, God is opening and closing doors and windows and whatever you got.
And He's directing us.
And if we look at what we're praying for and how He answers our prayer, I put those threethings together and I find mission.
what I want students to really know is that that mission will be the most fun, satisfying,joyful experience of their life.
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And I know most students tend to think that life is valuable when you get the biggest car,the biggest house, the biggest bank account, right?
But you and I both know that that's not true, right?
And they're going to come to understand that.
But I want them to come to understand it before 40.
I want them to understand it when they can still make choices with their life.
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Like they can still change the trajectory of their life and not be influenced by what theworld says, but maybe the way God has created and made them.
Because I got to tell you, I think maybe one of the most disappointing things is that whenI talk about this and an adult will come up to me and say, Doug, life has just
overburdened me.
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I can't actually change what I'm doing now, even though I know I'm made for somethingelse.
I can't change because I got a mortgage.
I got all these things going on.
I got this job, this career, and I can't do anything, right?
So that's what breaks my heart a little bit is seeing people that are in the wrong spotand they're frustrated by it.
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They feel like they're not really doing all that they can do and be all that they can beif you want to use an old marine commercial.
you know what I mean?
But that's what I want.
I want our students to know very early on that they're unique.
God has made them really special.
He loves them.
And if I can use an old, old term.
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he has a wonderful plan for their life.
and, I don't, I don't like evangelical isms that much, but, but, but you know what I mean,right?
I mean, they, he's got a plan to use them.
And I think this, and when you have this perspective, then you don't want to just say onlycertain kids can be leaders.
Now you want to say every kid can be a leader, right?
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Now we, we want this experience for every kid.
And I think that's why God, God didn't make some of our students and say,
There's no mission for them.
didn't say that, right?
He's like, he's got something for everyone.
And I want them, I want them to understand how he's prepared them.
Do you think that, would you say that some kids are born with more of a tendency towardsleadership?
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Like more of a natural born leader?
This is a question.
I think leadership can be learned, but I do think some people are born with the naturalspiritual gift of leadership.
I call it the King David gift, right?
And there are students that are born with it because we see it listed in the New Testamentunder gifts that the Holy Spirit gives.
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So I do believe that, but I also think that leadership
is a set, what leadership actually is, it's applying a set of principles like focusprecedes success, like communication that counts, like problem solving, conflict
resolution, navigating obstacles, communicating clearly, compassionately, consistently.
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I think there are principles that we can apply that will allow us to be good leaders.
And I think every student can learn those principles and can apply them depending on thesituation.
But I do believe that there are some people that are really just gifted by the Holy Spiritto lead.
Here's the other thing I believe, if you'll give me a second.
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I believe that being a leadership mimic will never work for anybody.
I don't think I can be John Maxwell.
I don't think I could be Andy Stanley or pick any other big name leader.
And I think that sometimes when we read their books, we think to ourselves, I can, I'mgoing to try to do that.
And it becomes frustrating for us.
It won't work to be a leadership mimic, a leader mimic.
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You really need to discover who you are.
You really need to discover how you're wired, how you're really gifted for ministry.
And then here's my line.
You got to be okay with it.
I meet a lot of leaders aren't okay with their gifting and their wiring and
And they try to do, they try to be and do something different because they like the waythat their hero does it.
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Right.
And, and that becomes a frustration for them.
And I think this is where we get into a lot of, we have a lot of frustrated Christianleaders because they haven't been okay with how they're gifted and how they're wired.
Yeah, that's good.
You know what I found?
I don't know if you would agree with this, so you're welcome to tell me I'm wrong.
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But it feels like when I look at the kids who've come through our student ministries overthe years, the kids that those naturally gifted leaders, man, they are the troublemakers.
Like they are the punks.
They just have this way of pulling and gravitating.
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everybody to them and I think at some point, you know, I learned to look and go, man, if Ican just get that kid running at the right thing, they're going to change the world.
But I don't know if that's true for everybody.
no, I think that's totally true.
And so let me kind of just, I'm totally with you on this.
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So I think the first step in leadership development is building a deep relationship with astudent and helping them understand how God is using them already.
Second thing is doing assessments with them to find out how they're wired, how they'regifted.
The third step I see in leadership development
is this doing and being side of leadership.
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Students love the doing side of leadership.
They love to do a project.
They love to lead the games.
They love to do something, right?
But it's the being side and the being side is what you're talking about.
So I like to teach empathy.
And what I mean by empathy is I, I, I, I describe empathy as, remaining others focused,caring about what others think and remaining others focused, which I think
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is the new leadership fad in Christianity today.
We went through this timeframe where we love the entrepreneurial leader and take themountain leader and then all these pastors started having moral failures.
I live in the Chicagoland area, so I got a couple of big ones right around me here.
And now I see pastors being fired for just being mean, just being mean.
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Now, Bill Hybels was mean every day and he...
and he was rewarded for it, right?
Now you be mean and you're, right?
So I think empathy is something that we need to teach our students and to help them, youknow, don't hold grudges.
Don't dominate the conversation.
Questions of other people.
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And when I actually sit down with students, I have this chart that I use on empathy, whatempathy is and what it isn't.
When I sit down and talk to students about this,
This is usually their response, which is surprising to me.
It's not, Doug, that's not me.
It's usually, Doug, I've never seen this before.
What are you talking about?
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I don't think our students are really taught much about empathy and about being othersfocused and staying focused on what others need.
But it's really interesting.
When I say to students, hey, what do you think about this type of leadership?
And I draw a diamond.
and I put the leader at the top and they tell everybody what to do.
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Students go, I hate that kind of leadership.
And I would agree, it's command and control, right?
I flip it upside down.
I put the triangle upside down and I say, what about the leader being down here andserving up to people?
Students will say to me in a second, I love that kind of leadership.
And I'm like, great, because that's kind of Jesus's style and that's gonna be what we'refocus on, right?
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But when I talk about empathy,
In relationships, most students go, I don't know, I'm struggling because think about astudent's life.
It's half online and it's half in reality and in the reality part is trying to besomething you're not just as much as you are online.
It's a little easier online.
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And I think that they become so self-absorbed that they can't think of other people.
So I think one of the best things that we can do with those naturally born leaders
is really help them understand the empathy side of being a leader, the being side of beinga leader.
And I think that's the hardest side to learn.
It's been the hardest side for me to learn.
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I really like the command and control when I'm in command and control.
Don't we all?
But I think that I think the most powerful leadership I see today and I think the futureof leadership is really empathy.
I think leaders who are empathetic towards others and keep others their focus, I thinkthey'll have huge impact.
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What are some consistent mistakes that you see youth workers making when they're trying todo and kind of introduce leadership in their student ministries?
yeah, that's a great question.
I think some of the things, and I'll just mention a few quickly, but then I'll focus in onone.
I think they know that they've got to help students understand what leadership is, andthen I think they understand that they need to have students discover how they're wired
(26:15):
and how they're gifted.
So what they typically do is they define leadership, and then they do some assessments,and then after that, they don't know what to do to move forward.
read a book by CS Lewis, do John Maxwell's 21st Influential Laws.
They tend to stop right there, the development.
And I think what most youth workers don't know how to do is they don't know how to set upa experience for students to really get the most out of it.
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what I, I'll just explain it a little bit here.
What I like to do is I like to think of a training plan once I put a student in a role.
So let's say I put a student in the role of
They're going to run all the games at the fall retreat, right?
And I've given them that role.
Well, then I'm going to put together a training plan.
Like what do they need to know to be able to do that?
They need to know how to be able to calculate the people and the resources.
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They need to be able to know how to engage those students that never want to play a game.
They need to know how to sell the game.
We as youth workers, that's our greatest strength, selling games, right?
We make it like this lava that you're about to cross is the hottest lava.
ever seen.
You know what I mean?
They need to learn how to do that.
They need to learn how to evaluate the performance.
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So I create a training plan and then I walk through on how to do that.
Maybe for casting the vision, I have them stand on stage when no students are around inpractice.
Or maybe I take them to Target and we walk the toy aisle and we talk about resources andpeople that we need.
Or I'm going to put together some sort of training plan.
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Maybe I have them write out all of the rules, whatever it is.
But I think that's where youth workers make a lot of mistakes is they put students inroles and they go best of luck.
And they forget about the training component to this.
And then the second part of this, the second thing I see is that they don't get theexperience right.
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And let me tell you what I mean by that.
I think there's three kinds of experiences for student leaders.
One is comfort zone.
They end up in a comfort zone where they're able to do whatever it is.
whatever role they're able to do it easily in their own strength and ability.
I think then there's the growth zone.
I think the growth zone is 10 % outside of the comfort zone.
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What exactly does that mean?
I have no idea, but that sounded good, didn't it, when I said it, like just 10 % outsideof It means it's outside of their comfort zone somewhat, right?
And then there's the panic zone.
There's the panic zone where they feel overwhelmed and they say these words that they havememorized, I quit.
Right?
They quit very quickly, right?
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So what a youth worker needs to be able to do with a good leadership experience for astudent is he or she needs to be able to move them out of the comfort zone, but keep them
only in the growth zone and not make it so challenging that it takes them to the paniczone.
And this is a mastery.
This is this I've made so many mistakes here, Jody.
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I can just begin to tell you how many mistakes I've made.
But.
But this is the way I define it.
Comfort zone, the student has no issue.
Failure is not an option.
They're going to do it, no problem, right?
Growth zone is where they're a little nervous and option is possible.
Failure is possible, right?
And then panic zone is failure for sure.
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And so when a student is in the growth zone, I noticed two things.
They have a dependency on God and a reliance on team.
They've prayed about it.
They know God's with them.
They're also relying on some other team members to help them.
When they're usually in the panic zone, they're usually all alone thinking they could doit, but they really can't do it.
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Right.
And so the growth zone is the place where you really want to keep them.
I traditionally, when I'm working with students, I ask myself every day, are we in thecomfort zone?
Are we in the growth zone or have we reached the panic zone?
Like, you know, I do mission, we do mission trips all the time here, and this is a goodquestion to ask on every.
every day on a missions trip, right?
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And the answer is oftentimes panic zone.
But you know what I mean?
so I really want, like when a student leader runs up to me and is like, Doug, we don'thave what we need.
And I'm like, okay, have we prayed about it?
And two, who can help you?
That's always my response because that's where I want them to be.
And I want them not to have a false sense of, I want them to have confidence, but I wantthem to have a false sense of confidence.
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So I do want them to be able to humble themselves to say, I need other people and I needGod.
And I feel like that's a really good place.
And so if you ask me what it is that I see youth workers missing as I think they'remissing this idea of creating a training and developing the leader before they just give
them the role.
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And I also noticed that they don't think through comfort zone, growth zone, panic zone.
Yeah, think when I think back to things that I've done wrong, I think one of the thingsthat I've often failed to do, and it's because I didn't think through it on my end first,
I think I wasn't clear on the expectations.
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Like I might say, I want you to lead a game and we'll talk through how to lead the gamemaybe.
But I'm not clear of like, no, I want you to pick out the game.
I want you to give me a list of what you need for the game.
want you to, you know, and so I...
I love what you're there because I think it's easy to overlook those.
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You just get them in there and you're like, they've got it.
They're our leader.
They're in charge of it.
And then we just leave them to fail.
And it almost has the opposite effect at that point because we've crushed their confidenceand embarrassed them in front of everybody.
terribly.
You know, I can't tell you how many times youth workers have walked up to me at aconference and said, Doug, I've listened to you talk.
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you know, I went back, I went back to the youth group and I put everybody in charge ofsomething.
We had 35 different roles.
put everybody in charge and I said, go.
And it didn't work.
It didn't work.
And I always say, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not what I said.
But believe you me, I get this a lot.
What I said was principles plus experiences.
plus debriefing equals transformational leadership development.
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And you can't have one without the other, right?
You can't have the experience and no principles and you can't have principles and noexperience otherwise you'll never learn anything.
So it's the combination of these things that make for a leadership development experience.
Yeah.
Would you recommend, like, if you're doing a more formal student leadership program, is ita, and are you inviting everybody to be a part of that or are you kind of limiting that,
(33:04):
capping that?
Like, I guess that may depend on context.
What is your thoughts on that?
I'm going to kind of blow up your question here is I just don't like leadership.
I don't, I don't like student leadership teams.
I don't like this fill out an application and somebody's in and somebody's out and thenmom and dad are angry.
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I don't like, 12 kids on a team.
And it's kind of like the last supper.
We all sit around together and, know, and, you know, I don't, I, cause what ends uphappening to be totally honest with you is.
We usually put juniors and seniors who are really busy and already overwhelmed, right?
And they start the fall strong on the student leadership team, but by Christmas we can'tfind them.
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They're applying to colleges, they're doing college visits, and it's a disaster.
And typically on those teams, and I've observed a lot of teams, there's three studentsthat do everything and the other nine hide.
And it's a horrible.
And it's usually just project based.
(34:12):
Again, the doing side of leadership.
So I don't like it.
So what I like is leadership labs.
And this is what I mean by that.
I mean that I'm going to pick, I'm just going to go and invite one to three students andsay, hey, Tommy, I notice that God's at work in you and you're, you're, you're a great
communicator and you've got some real compassion for your friends.
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And I'd love to invite you to work with me for two months.
And then lead a part of our fall retreat this year.
And it's, it's a big commitment.
It's, I'm going to need you to come to church a couple of times a week.
I know you're a football player and I know in the spring, you don't have the same level ofcommitment that you do in the fall.
So I think you might have the time for this, but I'd love for you to come join me.
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I'm going to be doing a bunch of discipleship with you.
I'm going to do a bunch of training.
And, and as soon as you lead this event, then what I'm going to do is I'm going to, we'regoing to meet one more time to brief and then we're done.
Would you ever be interested in that?
Tommy says, yeah, I'd be interested in that.
I'm like, OK, let me talk to your parents.
Let me make sure everybody's on the same page.
We get on the same page with the parents.
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And then I'm going to run a leadership lab with Tommy.
And I might grab Susie, too.
And Tommy and Susie don't know each other real well.
But I'm going to grab Susie.
I'm going to ask her to do that.
And I'm going to bring them in.
Because when I bring two students in, this is where it gets fun in leadership development.
Because they're going to approach everything differently.
And now they're going to have to.
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be compassionate towards each other and learn how to interact with each other.
So I was like, I'll do a lot of ones, but I like twos and threes too, because then I canpick them and all that.
So then I bring them in, I do my try, we pick a role for them after we do some, you know,some assessing, we pick a role for them and then I create my training and I get them
(35:59):
ready.
And I'm discipling as well too.
I'm talking through what's going on in their lives and.
And we get ready and then they run the event.
We do a big debrief.
know, what are some things we did well?
What are some things we would do differently?
And what are some things that we learned that we want to say we learned these things asleaders?
And then I'm going to bless them and send them on their way.
(36:21):
And I might ask them to be in a leadership lab two years later or I don't know what, butwhat I like about leadership labs is I can run a couple of them at a time.
I can kind of pick and choose the students that I want to go after.
And I can adjust the length of it based on their busy schedules, right?
I can make it fit for them.
(36:42):
And if I get a few other adults doing this at the same time, we could be running aleadership lab out of our worship team.
We could be running a leadership lab out of the Snapshack.
We could be running a leadership lab in small groups and maybe getting some of our...
our students that are thinking about a calling in ministry working with some of our juniorhires, we could be doing a lot of things with leadership labs and it's built more for the
(37:10):
busy student.
It's built around what adult volunteer feels like they're competent in that area and it'sshort term and it's focused.
And I really like for leadership development, leadership labs versus leadership teams.
That's where I'm at.
Yeah.
I have never, and I'm listening to you talk and I'm like, okay, I'm not feeling so badnow.
(37:35):
I feel like there's a lot of things I've done wrong over 25 years of this thing.
I have never, ever been able to successfully put together to any degree of success on mypart, a formalized leadership, student leadership team that accomplished much.
And I'm looking around and I'm seeing everybody else and I'm like, am I just not, maybe Ijust don't know how to do this.
(38:02):
But so we tend to, what we've always kind of defaulted back to is, yeah, that's right, I'mjust talking about it.
We end up, I usually end up finding some really key volunteers who are solid in theirfaith, high capacity folks, and then myself, and it almost becomes a little more of
(38:22):
mentoring for us.
where we're kind of pouring in, investing into some students, walking alongside them,trying to partner with parents and that.
That feels to me, it's a little more organic at times and a little messy to your pointeven earlier, but it has felt more successful in accomplishing something meaningful.
(38:43):
But yeah, just, for years I keep looking around going, what the heck is wrong with me?
Like, why can't I now figure this out?
It's not working.
How do you, Doug, how do you, like, I was just gonna ask, how do you, yeah, absolutely,please.
So a few years ago, I wrote a free ebook on the Leader Trek's website.
Just go to the search bar at the top right hand corner and search re-imagine studentleadership.
(39:08):
And you can get a free copy of the ebook where I wrote out how to do these leadership labsand how they work in comparison to student leadership teams.
I'm not against student leadership teams.
Boy, I think they would tar and feather me in some places if I said I was.
I'm not.
I just think if you want to do more leadership development,
(39:29):
then I think leadership labs are a little more effective.
Sorry, I just wanted to get that resource out there.
No, you're good.
I love that, for sure.
And I will link to that.
I'll try to find that and link to that in the show notes as well so folks can grab it.
How do you do the leadership lab thing where you're approaching students and not beaccused or kind of take on this, Doug's playing favorites again because he's only pulling
(39:57):
his one or two kids?
Like how would you, how do you, because I know that's a thing.
Every, I mean everybody in youth ministry, you've been a youth pastor for two months,you've been accused of favoritism.
Sermon on Sunday at church was on a James 2 on favoritism.
I think that that's the thing about leadership labs is that you can easily pick thestudents that you would normally not pick.
(40:23):
And I think that's a challenge for us because it's easy to pick that kid who always showsup, who always wants to get a coffee with you and would hang out with you and you really
enjoy them.
So that's what I love about leadership labs.
This is the way I think about them.
And this is not the right way or wrong way.
I like to combine students that don't know each other, which usually solves my problemhere, right?
(40:44):
Because favoritism is something that I do out of convenience, not something that Ioftentimes do for any other reason.
It's just easier, right?
So I gotta break that.
So what I usually try to do with a leadership lab is grab one student I know well and onestudent I don't know, or students that don't know each other.
(41:06):
And I also ask,
my adult volunteers, who do you think in your group, your small group, has got leadershippotential, even if they're misbehaving, even if that behavior is negative behavior?
I want to know their name.
Because I like the negative behavior kid as a leader.
You mentioned this earlier, right?
Like a lot of them are leading, but they're leading in a negative way, right?
(41:28):
I love to sit down with that student and say, hey, I see God at work in you, maybe in away that you don't see.
Like I see people following you.
They're following you to the pit of hell, but they're still following you.
So let me, let me actually, let me actually spend some time with you, maybe influencingthem in a positive way.
(41:49):
Would you ever be interested in that?
Or I see God at work in you.
You're an amazing communicator.
Or you actually solve problems for people.
Now you're, you're, you're using this creativity in a pretty negative way, but I still seeGod at work in you for this.
Would you ever be interested in?
And what I have found is that when I use that line, I see God at work in you.
(42:11):
Would you ever be interested in getting into a deeper relationship with me for leadershipdevelopment?
I find that I've never had a student say to me, no, thank you.
I've had a student every now and then say, timing wise, it might not work.
But I find that students don't have enough people in their life telling them what they'regreat at.
(42:33):
So one of the things that I've always loved
do I have this tool called the leadership pathway and it's how you develop a student intoa leader and what I love to do with that tool is start with by telling students what I see
their potential is in 10 years.
Hey I just want to tell you I don't know if anybody's ever told you this but if you wereto get into a mentoring relationship with me on leadership development I believe your
(42:55):
potential in 10 years is this and I find that students are like wait a minute what how doyou how do you figure that?
And then I began to tell them what I see God doing in their life.
And I, that's my favorite part of leadership development, by the way, if you can't tell bythe excitement in my voice, but that part is where I get to really share with a student.
(43:16):
I think you're awesome.
I think you're super unique.
I think you're super special.
And the problem is, is that we tend to reserve that for the responsible kid.
And if you can tell from my thinking, I'm not always in love with the responsible kid.
The responsible kid is great.
But the responsible kid usually already has five extracurricular activities.
(43:37):
They already have six adults pouring into them.
They got all these things.
What about that student that doesn't have all that?
Maybe they've got an addiction problem.
Maybe they've got a behavioral issue.
Maybe things at home are terrible.
But I think that we have said to that student, leadership is not for you.
And I think that's a huge mistake.
(43:59):
You know, as you're saying that, and we've mentioned this a bunch about the responsiblekid, I'm trying to think through scripture of someone that God used in a pretty major way
that would have been the responsible kid.
And everyone I'm thinking of was a mess.
(44:19):
Like, they were the troublemaker or unqualified or invisible.
Right?
And so...
one that was a decent, responsible kid, because he was responsible for the sheep.
the one.
he was like, his dad didn't even care enough to invite him to the party when they werepicking the king, right?
So it's just, it's just interesting.
(44:41):
think, I think too, Doug, as I'm just thinking, I'm processing out loud here as we'retalking, like, I love taking the troubled kid because I've watched God do so many things
in those kids over the years.
And I do think,
that very few people speak into them.
So when you're saying, hey, here's where I see you in 10 years, man, you're casting visionin that student's life that they are not yet able to see.
(45:11):
But because you're further down the road in life and you've seen what God does instudents, you're able to say that to them.
It's the same thing I do with a volunteer.
Like when I'm training folks on how to recruit volunteers, I never say,
Like I would never say, hey Doug, listen, we've got this seventh grade group of boys andman, I just don't know what we're gonna do.
(45:36):
We can't really find anybody.
I mean, they're a good group.
They smell a little funny.
But man, I just wonder if you'd be willing to come and just serve as their small groupleader.
Because if not, I don't know if we're even gonna be able to have a group for these.
Like that's a terrible pitch, you know?
But what I am gonna say to you is,
(45:56):
I mean, I'd love to find a time to talk to you about our seventh grade boys because, I seesuch potential in these guys.
I can see God already stirring in their heart and their life something special.
And then what I really think is that God might be calling you to come alongside them andbe a part of what he's going to do in their life.
That's a very different pitch.
(46:19):
And yet I think it's more helpful for the leader and for the student because I'm able topaint.
picture of what the future looks like for them and they're gonna be way more excited.
If anybody agrees to that first pitch, they're gonna volunteer maybe a year if they makeit the year and they're out because they're just plugging a hole.
That second pitch, man, they're in it.
(46:40):
We've raised the sales, right?
We've pointed to the horizon.
They're in it to the end and they're gonna be aware of how God is working because I've putthat on their radar.
And I think what you're saying is similar for the students.
Love that, love that.
Yeah.
Sunday morning, I came out of church into the lobby and I saw Sean across the way was inmy first small group.
(47:03):
He's 47 years old.
I went over, I put my arm around him and he's like, doogie, how's it going today?
And it was like, were, it was like we were back in the, and it's, that's the kind ofrelationship you have, you know, 38 years later.
And, you know, it's, that's worth it.
(47:24):
I mean, that's worth it, right?
The long horizon, I like that.
I like that a lot.
Yeah, it's funny.
mean, you've done this way longer than me.
But I'm 25 years in.
It's pretty rare.
Like every now and then, every few weeks, I get a message from a student that you don'texpect.
(47:48):
Usually comes at a real good time when you're just kind of really frustrated or bummed.
And it's almost always the kid you don't expect.
I for sure you'd be in jail by now.
Like, is this a thing?
And it's the kid that you didn't think was paying attention or it was, you know, I thinkit's the beauty of longevity and investing and being present and showing up and so much of
(48:12):
student ministry is just showing up, right?
Just keep showing up.
So I love that.
Well.
time.
I like it when they screw up in their 20s and 30s, but then late 30s they call you andsay, hey, can I talk to you?
I love it when they come around the second time.
you're actually smarter than I gave you credit for, you know, that's kind of what they'rethinking.
(48:37):
Like all those times I wasn't sure you knew.
You knew.
Well, Doug, if folks wanted to connect with you more and find out more about what you do,what's the best way for them to do that?
We have two main websites, Leadertreks.org and DeepDiscipleship.com.
(48:58):
But if you just, I'm a youth guy.
I'd love to talk youth ministry.
And so one is if you call our main 1-800 number, what I don't know, I don't even know whatit is to be totally honest with you.
You're gonna talk to David or TJ, two youth workers.
They're both 15 plus year youth guys who are now on our team and they'll do anything tohelp you.
(49:19):
They're not gonna try to sell you anything.
They'll do anything to help you.
But you can also,
You can also reach out to me.
I'm Doug at LeaderTrek.com, pretty easy to know.
And you can reach out to me and I'd love to schedule a Zoom with you or talk or anything.
I do these Refuel Retreats around the country, kind of three-day intensives ondiscipleship and leadership development.
(49:44):
If you ever want to go deeper into these topics, that would be another great way, but justreach out to me or...
I'm on Messenger a lot, Facebook Messenger.
I don't, what's the one on Instagram?
I don't really ever look at direct messages on Instagram.
I'm old.
But, yeah.
(50:05):
But I'd love to be able to talk with you and I'd love to do it.
And honestly, we're a nonprofit.
We don't exist to sell you stuff.
We're really trying to help youth workers make disciples and develop leaders, period.
Well Doug, I've really enjoyed our time.
I can't thank you enough for coming on and I thank everyone listening.
(50:28):
It's evident in your heart for students, student ministry, youth pastors, youth ministers,not just leadership, but obviously it's a huge component of it.
so, man, I just want to say thank you for all you're doing and all you've done.
I mentioned to you before we jumped on to record how much I've personally benefited fromwhat you've done and shared over the years from a distance.
(50:50):
And so,
I'm just super thankful and grateful to have guys like you in the trenches there kind ofresourcing and equipping, encouraging churches and youth pastors.
So man, thanks.
Thanks a bunch.
Thanks for jumping on today.
I appreciate it.
I know folks will follow up and connect.
There's no doubt.
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Love talking.
Love talking youth ministry and leadership development.
(51:15):
All right, Doug, we'll catch you later.
So how great is Doug, right?
I mean, you just, you hear him, you hear his heart for youth ministers, youth pastors,youth ministry, student leadership, just a wealth of knowledge in that guy.
Appreciate again him and his time to come on the show.
(51:37):
Make sure you head over to Leader Treks and check out all of the things that they havethere, all the helps, their desire and heart, which I think you hear as he's talking, is
really to come alongside you and help you in whatever way he can and encourage.
And so they get lots of things there to help.
to help you, whether it's student leadership or otherwise.
So make sure you head over there.
Again, show notes today, thelongerhall.com slash episode 140.
(52:01):
You'll find all the links and things there that you need.
Make sure you are on the mailing list, the Facebook group, all the things that you say.
Right, subscribe and follow, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, great episode today.
I'm excited for the ones coming down the pipe.
So make sure you are.
looking for those as they come your way because we have some great things coming.
(52:23):
Hey, thanks for all you do.
Thanks for being part of the longer haul.
Stay at it.
You're making a difference in the lives of your students.
I know you are.
And so be encouraged.
Thrive where you are for sure.
And we will catch you later.
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