November 15, 2025 • 29 mins
NewsNation star Leland Vittert joins me to discuss doing TV for all Americans, having productive debates in an insanely divided country, the rise of the toxic "independent" media, and more, in this episode of the Brad vs Everyone podcast.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know. Now, if you believe that pink unicorns are
going to stampede up Pennsylvania Avenue and take over the
White House, there is a YouTube channel for you.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, guys, welcome back to the Bread Versus Everyone podcast
and for our interview this week, we are joined by
a NewsNation TV host Leland Vitter for a fascinating conversation
on media bias, independent media, but the persistent persistent importance
of mainstream media as well and interestingly enough, autism and
(00:39):
his new book Born Lucky. Make sure you subscribe like
all that, and now let's get into it. Leland, thanks
so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So I wanted to chat with you in part because
I just appreciate the entire News Nation project. I mean,
you guys are very much on the rise in the
world of cable news and very much geared towards news
for all Americans, not just pandering to Democrats or pandering
to Republicans, but trying to create a news product even
in this divided time that a wide array of Americans
(01:13):
can tune into. So what does that mean to you
and what's your kind of guiding ethos on how you
go about that.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
You know, Brad, appreciate you noticing, thank you. And for me,
it is about having guests and opinions and ideas that
people inherently disagree with and what do I mean by that?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
That?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And I only speak for my show because it's the
one with my name on it, but I do it
every night, and you know, at nine pm every night,
I know what my competitors are going to do, right,
I know that Sean Hannity is going to have a
monologue in which he is going to say that, you know,
Donald Trump is doing forty underwater chess, and then somebody's
(01:59):
going to come to go, no, no, Sean, you don't
understand it is five.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
D underwater Jess.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So Kaylen Collins is going to come on at nine
pm and raise an eyebrow and ask some kind of
snarky fact check question, and either Sake or Mattaw is
going to come on and do a monologue about how
fascism is upon us, the republic is near its end,
and tomorrow at noon maybe the last day we have
a democracy. And then a guest is going to come
(02:26):
on and go, oh no, no, no, no, you don't
understand the democracy may already be over at this out. Okay,
so that and you laugh, but it's true, right, Yeah,
So what we try to do is be different, and
I think what we're finding is is that there is
a market for people who don't want to just be
(02:47):
told what they already believe and have that reinforced. Right.
And that's why we've sort of gotten so extreme in
America is because now in our silos, we can just
listen to this drivel and it then it's entertaining drivel,
but it's kind of like, you know, it's drug, it's sugar,
it's fentanol, it's whatever you want to compare it to
(03:08):
that you're never you need more and more of it,
you need more and more outraging, you need be more
and more angry in order to get that high that
that people get from watching Fox or MSNBC all day.
And I get it because when I worked at Fox News,
people used to say, I watch Fox News all day
and I'm thinking to myself, oh, boy, like that is
really not good for you. Well, and it's not good
(03:31):
to watch AMSNBC all day. What's different about News Nation
and why we've had success is because yes, I will
do a monologue, I will be completely transparent about how
I feel about an issue, and then I will have
somebody on who disagrees with me, and therefore our viewers
by definition, are going to have to have their own
views challenged. And what's different for us is is that
(03:53):
it's always an adversarial interview. I mean, you know, it's
very rare that somebody comes on and goes, oh, boy Leland,
you are so smart. That's just great. Let me tell
you why you're right. And that's intentional. I mean, it's
not the I'm the only person who sort of has
one side or another to an issue. But it's because
our viewers demand every side be questioned aggressively. And I
(04:15):
think that is what has made News Nation different. It's
why we're successful.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, and it's it makes for more interesting TV. I've
criticized a lot the yes and style of cable news,
so back and more in the Biden administration. I used
to do a lot of a Fox and that is
the style. But it's absolutely the style on on many
networks where the host says something and then the guest
comes on to say, you're so right about that and
(04:41):
this other point that you also agree with. At some point,
I just find that boring. I find that dual as
a news consumer myself, and I also think it's how
you end up making mistakes or getting trapped into an
echo chamber, because it's like you're almost unaware. This is
a little unrelated, but I was covering something on one
of my YouTube channels where a woman went and was
(05:03):
speaking to a California state lawmaker and challenging him on
some of the self id policies they have when it
comes to bathrooms and so anybody can go in a
women's bathroom, and she made the statement trans women are men,
and the whole room gasped. Now, whether you agree with
that statement or not, the idea that that is like
(05:24):
a wild thing to say in public and not something
at least half the country agrees with was just so
indicative to me of what an echo chamber those folks
must be in. Right, progressive, well.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think, yeah, yeah, no. And what I find interesting
in the conversation often is that the left, typically if
you disagree, wants to label you as something and then
demonize you, and the right by and large, and this
(05:58):
is changing, I don't think for the better, but the right,
by and large, for a long time was willing to
have a good faith argument and a good faith conversation
in a way that I don't see un left to
your point. If you know, if you say, you know,
boys shouldn't be in girls' bathroom, there's part of the
population that just kind of can't deal with that reality.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, and it represents an opting out of the actual
democratic process, right, because these issues don't go away from
you buring your head in this hand and saying. There
was a clip I think it was CNN or something,
but some left wing professor, maybe it was Scott Jennings
or someone else, made a statement to the effect of
what you just said or what I said, and he
was like, I will not hear transphobia in my presence,
(06:40):
and he just made He didn't literally plug his ears
and start screaming, but he essentially did the default of that.
And I just find that laughable for people who go
into our business, because I think you're supposed to welcome
the debate and welcome the disagreement, and I think it
keeps you sharp. But then the question is also how
do you handle that? Because I've seen you have guests
(07:00):
from all across the spectrum, right far left. You've got
your Meddi Hassans, You've got right wing people from the
online world, from the media world. But how do you
keep a debate on topic without people hijacking your show
to bring up their pet issue or just changing the
subject or not addressing the actual story. That's one thing
people do that's maddening. And then how do you keep
(07:22):
it from descending into like political Jerry Springer the way
you see on some debate shows, Well.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
A lot of hard work every day, good bookings, understanding
the content really well, anticipating where the where the off
ramps to Jerry Springer are trying to preempt the hijack.
And I think, you know, our viewers, Our viewers want
(07:52):
smart conversation, they want to feel smarter watching. And I
think what's interesting heard me about what's happened with News
Nation is that when I left Fox and I was
starting News Nation and I was trying to book people
for my show, there were a number of people I'd say, oh,
you know, it was I think I had a seven
pm or APM time slot I can't remember. And there
(08:14):
are people who'd be like, oh wow, like I didn't
realize Tucker's off tonight, And I would once they had
been agreed to come on, and then I was like, oh, no, no, no,
I'm not with Fox anymore. On with News Nation, they're like,
what's news Nation? And these are people who are like
members of Congress and to know the media landscape. But
that's how new we were, and you meet people or
(08:37):
people would recognize me and go, are you still with Fox?
Faven seeing you for a while? Why'd you leave? On
and on and on, where are you now? News Nation?
What's that? And now four years later, I've got people
pretty routinely, and especially you know when I'm back home
in Michigan or Missouri, when I'm out visiting my wife's
family in Idaho, down in Florida, through the Midwest, a
(08:59):
lot I have people coming up to me and go like,
I recognize you from News Nation, and I love what
you're doing. I love that you guys are in the
middle and giving back to me what we think we're doing.
And that, to me is the real mark of success,
that what we're doing people are understanding.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, and I
think there's a lot of demand for something different. But
then the risk is that people will tune out or
that they will tune into and I'm more in this
category like independent online media, but I have a more
fact based, a more somewhat centrist approach than a lot
(09:37):
of the people. What do you make of the exodus?
And it's not obviously mainstream media plays an important role
still and television news newspapers still a big role, but
a lot of people have switched to getting their news
exclusively from YouTubers or podcasters, which I would not recommend
even as one of those people. Why do you think
(10:00):
think that happened? How did the news business lose the
trust to everyday people so they even made that switch?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, losing trust is very easy, right, and it happened slowly,
which it did, and then very quickly, mostly through COVID
because people I think the first Trump administration had something
to do with it. And then I think it got
really exacerbated with COVID because people sort of instinctively understood
that they were being played and taken for fools and
(10:28):
gaslet that sort of obvious things that we all knew
we were being told weren't true, and not only if
not only are they not true, but you can't say
them that said, you know, just follow the money Right
in the very beginning of media, you had one broadsheet
(10:50):
newspaper note the word broad and three broadcast television networks
in each town note the word broad. In order to
make money, they had to appeal to the broadest possible audience.
That meant effectively being in the middle of the bell
shaped curve of American politics. Now, as there was more
money in American media, and as American media sort of
(11:14):
centralized in New York and DC, the Acela Corridor, whatever
you want to call it, it became more and more
liberal and left the Midwest sensibilities behind. Through the eighties
through the nineties, Fox comes along, CNN is there, MSNBC's there.
But still you you've got very relatively speaking, broad swaths
(11:35):
of the population you have to appeal to. You know, now,
if you believe that pink unicorns are going to stampede
up Pennsylvania Avenue and take over the White House, there
is a YouTube channel for you, and that you that
YouTube YouTube producer does it no longer needs multi million
(11:56):
dollar studios and uplinks and a team of porters around
the country or around the world, and tens of millions
of dollars of equipment and hundreds of millions of dollars
or one hundred million dollars worth of salaries every year
to put on their YouTube show. It's a guy in
a basement with a couple of a camera, a couple
of lights, and a picture of a pink unicorn behind him,
(12:18):
and now suddenly he can monetize that. So therefore the
market has driven this. And I think, you know it's
you want to know, You want to know why something's
happening in politics, follow the money, and to a certain extent,
that's true in media as well.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I guess. So my perspective coming out at this is
I graduated college in twenty nineteen and went to work
in conservative media. So I worked at the Washington Examiner,
and at that time, I remember I had a memorable
moment with my boss because I'm somebody who's very online,
very plugged into gen z. I cover internet trends and controversies,
and I said, he told me, well, we should be
(12:55):
writing about what's on cable news. And I said, okay,
of course, but what about what on Reddit? Right? And
he said, looked at me and he said, I'll never
get this. What's Reddit? And of course, in my generation,
it's the homepage of the Internet. Right, it tells you
the number one thing everybody's talking about online. And so
there was a time where I saw the rise of
online independent media and I was extremely bullish on it, right,
(13:19):
I thought it was going to be great, fierce truth
tellers with no partisan loyalty, would would grow and build
an audience and do their own thing. And now, I
mean from the rise of the evil the Nick Fuentes
Is to the to the crazy, to the like un
American left wing Hassan Piker types, the single loudest and
(13:44):
biggest voices are none of those things, right. They're they're conspiratorial,
they're not based in fact, they're hyper tribalist.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Why is a why?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Why is that what we got from this independent meet?
Not to say there's not good stuff, of course there
is as well, but the at least the biggest voices
seemed to be fulfilling the opposite of the promise of
independent media. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Well, I will say, journalists make lousy media critics, and
so I try not to sort of go go into that.
I think the issue you identify with the sort of
the extremes of both worlds. There, you know, with the broadcasters,
(14:34):
there was an overton window, right, an acceptable area in
order to appeal to a broad part of the population
you had to live in And because the people who
ran these networks cared about what people thought of them,
and on and on and on. You know, there were
there were certain there were certain viewpoints that were that
(14:57):
were brought in. I think when it comes to Nick
Fluentes in the far left folks as well, who are
equally hateful and awful, that they are now appealing to
sort of the worst proclivities of an American populace. That
(15:19):
is agreed, right, And you take Fluentes and we're doing
a segment on him tonight. This is somebody who is
now telling young men, in order to fulfill your manhood,
you have to be a racist, misogynist who hates Taylor.
That is the fulfillment of being a man who loves Hitler, right,
(15:43):
which is bewildering to sort of the normal thought process.
You know, I'm older than you, I'm forty three. I
didn't really understand it. I still don't feel I fully
understand it. But I think what comes from is men
for so long, growing up over the past ten years
(16:04):
especially and very much during COVID were told they were
the problem, and any kind of masculinity was beat out
of them, and they were called toxic, and they were
sort of pushed to be very feminine in their behaviors.
And as best I can tell, along comes somebody and says, no,
(16:25):
you're a man, and guys go, you're right, I am
a man. But it's it is a reflection, and the
pendulum keeps being pushed harder and harder each way in
all of these situations. So why is foente popular. It's
because what started as twenty guys on Reddit with tiki
(16:46):
torches in Charlottesville now has a place to grow, and
it's a place that can be monetized. You know, before,
if you thought this kind of stuff, you had to
you know, send nine to ninety nine away plus shipping
and handling for some kind of you know, newsletter that
came out once every six weeks from a po box
in Wilsford, Ohio. H No offense if there's actually a Wilford, Ohio.
(17:10):
But now I can just click on YouTube. And also
if I click on it once, I am going to
be fed and increasing stream of it. Right, yeah, you will.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And it's interesting because I think what you just identified
is true. And this is a similar phenomenon we saw
with Andrew Tait a year or two ago. Why is
this rass, obnoxious dude on the rise. I think it's
because you told men being men as bad, and at
some point they were like, well, all right, if we're
bad regardless, let's actually be bad.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
The you're gonna tell me I'm bad. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
The other thing is is I think we're and I
weren't about this for years. Honestly, we are living with
the results of a boy who cried wolf media and
culture where so many things were called racist or sexist
or homophobic or hateful that were actually just totally innocuous
rest in peace on Jemima right, or they were totally
(18:07):
legitimate opinions and perspectives. And so I think the power
of those words because actual racism is evil, right, Actual
sexism or hatred of women is evil, but the power
of those words was really watered down. And I think
what we're living through with some young people is kind
of an edge lordism where they were so sick of
everything being called racist, they're just not phased by this
(18:28):
guy who's just joking.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, I don't think nick for what this is just joking.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
No, I did that in sc scare quotes. Ill rationalize
it that way.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, I think the other part of this and we
can't underestimate this, and this is something I've done a
lot of reporting on, so I feel relatively on firm
round talking about it is. Donald Trump won by taking
those people in twenty sixteen who had been called racist, bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic,
(19:01):
who also wore a hard hat and went down into
a coal mine every day. He looked at all of
them and said, it's your fault, right, And Donald Trump
got up and said, it's not your fault. You're not racist,
you're not misogynistic, you're not focus. I'm gonna fight for you,
you deplorables. I'm fighting for you, right, I'm you you trash.
(19:21):
I'm gonna wear an orange trash vest and go to McDonald's.
He was that, he captured that grievance, and America has
never really been a grievance culture. We are we are
quickly becoming one on the left and right. Same thing,
you know, Fuentes is basically saying to young men, you
know you want to google hot girls, that's what a
(19:43):
man should do right. Men should stand up for their women.
Men should tell you and it and by the way,
any you know, and by the way, I'm standing up
for you right you're you were you young men are aggrieved.
It's not your fault, and I'm here to fight for you.
And that's a very powerful message to people who feel
a grief. It's no different than Zorhan Mandami who looked
(20:05):
at a bunch of you know, twenty three year olds
who have a comparative literature degree and think they should
be able to afford rent in Manhattan and says, you
know what, it's not your fault. You can't afford rent.
It's the landlord's fault. I'm gonna fight for you. And
by the way, it's kind of the Jew's fault too, which,
by the way, tale as old as time. Now, the
(20:26):
left and the right same thing, you know. I mean,
someone outright say it, others will kind of say it,
but you know, it's really the Jew's fault. And that
is the grievance culture we live in.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I think it certainly is. But the question is
how do you Because it's easy when you're telling people
it's not your fault, and the solution is just destroy
the billionaires, or destroy the landlords, or you know, ban
women from voting or whatever. The opposite extreme of that is,
these are the things that are rising to the top,
(20:58):
including the viri le and antisemit, which I am seeing
and is really horrifying. But the question is, how does
the person who says actually who doesn't have the easy scapegoat,
how does that message get out there and compete with
that or how does the truth?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I believe, Yeah, I still believe in America. I still
believe America is the greatest force for good in the world.
I think most Americans are good people. I think the
best the best disinfectant is sunlight, both on the left
end on the right. That these people need to be
(21:35):
exposed and focused on and face the harsh light and
not be allowed to sort of exist on the fringes
of the world. And I think, you know, in the
same way I really tried to after October seventh that I,
lord knows, got extraordinarily criticized and worse for it. I
(21:56):
took a very strong stand when you're chanting from the
river to the sea your chance about killing Jews, And
I said that over and over and over again, and
everybody says, no, no, these are just college kids who care
about you know, starving Palestinians. And I said, I've been there.
That's not what the situation is. When you're chanting the
same slogans as Hamas, you're pro Hamas, it's very simple.
(22:18):
I think it's incumbent on the right, and thankfully you're
starting to see this, but incumbent to also say the
very same thing about what's happening on the right. If
you were sitting there playing QTS with somebody who says
HiT's great, that's a problem. Now. The flip side of this,
right is the reason Tucker Carlson is saying all these things,
(22:39):
and the reason he went to Russia, and the reason
he's now talking about Kem trails and everything else is
because he wants everybody to focus on him. Tucker hasn't
you know, first it was an insatiable need for money.
He talked about that at one point. Now it's an
insatiable ego, and therefore every three months he says something
that's super outrageous or does something super outrageous, not stupid.
He knew that by playing qut with Nick foyant as
the world would talk about him suddenly, and he needs that,
(23:02):
he needs that attention. I would contend the best thing
that ever happened for truth and the worst thing it
will ever have had have happened to Nick Fluentes is
that he got exposed for who he is. Because now
there's a bunch of moms asking their young sons, what
do you know about Nick Flente's. Jimmy, do you listen
to jim who's Nick Fluente's And Jimmy starts talking about it,
and mom says, well, Jimmy, we're gonna have a little
(23:23):
conversation about what we're watching and why it's important everything else,
which never would have happened unless Jimmy's mom sort of
saw what was happening.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, I mean, I do think that's kind of what
we saw with the Andrew Tate phenomenon. He had a
surgeon popularity, most the rest of America woke up to
what was happening with him, the dark truths about him
came out, and then he fell off into oblivion. I
certainly hope something happens like that to Nick Fuentez. I
do want to I do definitely want to talk about
Born Lucky as well. So thank you congratulations on the
(23:58):
New York Times Best I'm making the last your new book.
I will link for anyone who is interested and correct
me if this is.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I just happened. I just happened to have a copy
right here.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Crazy how that works right now? So I do wonder
and correct myth is wrong. But I believe you're the
only major news anchor who is open about the fact
that they are autistic. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I guess now. It's not something I ever kept track of.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
The Born Lucky story is my dad adapting me to
the world rather than the world to me when I
was diagnosed with autism, and you know, until I was
twenty five, he didn't tell me. He didn't tell his
friend's family, therapist, anybody. It was always just you are
who you are, and you have to take responsibility for
(24:44):
who you are. And this is how life works. And
my dad, you know, held my hand through the adversity
rather than trying to take the adversity away. And I
you know, I appreciate you noting the New York Times
bestseller list. What I I think it shows is how
many families feel so alone now and I'll say it
(25:08):
now now with Born Lucky, they feel like they're not alone, right,
and they feel like this is proof. Born Lucky is
proof of the hope that every parent should have of
a kid who's having a hard time, because there is hope,
and there is so much power in great parenting, and
parents have so much agency and nobody tells them that.
(25:30):
And the thing I've been most taken by Brad since
the book came out is not the sales numbers, but
I have gotten hundreds of emails. And I don't mean like, hey,
love your book. I mean pages of people of parents,
grandparents pouring their hearts out about how this is now
(25:53):
hope for them and what this means for them and
what this means for their kid. And that is you know,
if going to therapy at forty three years old on
TV is about as fun as sitting in a box
full of scissors, ah, let me tell you it is
more lucky some of the worst parts of my life.
But if by talking about it and having honest conversations
(26:14):
about it it helps help kids like me not have
to have as hard of a time as I did,
it's worth it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Well, and I've watched you talk about it a lot
on News Nation, and what sticks out to me, is
this idea of you have a challenge, you have a
unique circumstance that you will overcome and you will adapt
to rather and in our I'm a victim, the world
must conform to me in every possible way. Culture, especially
with young people today, my generation, it's like, there's this
(26:45):
thing on TikTok, a viral thing, the bean soup theory.
A TikToker posted a video sharing her favorite recipe to
bean soup, and the top comment on it ended up being, well,
is there a version for me? I don't like beans?
And it's like, well, then it's it's not for you
because it's been in soup. So sorry, that's a little
(27:09):
bit of a tangent, but I think you get what
I'm saying is like that is just so important in
the context of a world where or a generation where
it's like the world needs to conform to me and
I'm a victim.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah right, Well, let's let's put it this way. In
my house growing up, the world did not conform to me,
and there was a there was a lot of conformity
I needed, and it all came from me conforming because
my dad, I think made the point and this is
what gen Z's learning, right, is that the world doesn't
(27:42):
conform you. I'm sorry, we tried that for a couple
of years, twenty twenty to twenty twenty two or whatever
it was. It didn't work. The world. The world will
now pass you by. And you know, I think it's
why you have all these young people in New York
who were so angry, right because they grew up in
this area, you know, this time when the world conformed
(28:03):
to them. And I don't want to be pejorative about it,
but it was like you knew you. You know, if
you don't want bean soup, we'll find another soup. And
by the way, it's you know, it's your mister, company
or school or whatever's responsibility to make bean soup without beans,
(28:24):
because that's what that's what Johnny requires. And the real
world just ain't that way. And I think we're seeing
that the flip side, and I think this is our
you know, I don't know, I want to say a
cool part of it, but it's really fun, especially some
of the kids on my staff who are exactly the opposite.
I mean, they are just hungry, they want to work,
(28:44):
they want to learn, they don't demand and it's just
so refreshing. And the other thing is, my god, are
they successful? Like I can't hang on to them, like
just promote, promote. Oh sorry that because they are so
successful because the rest of the competition now is so
so much less. It's just there's relatively speaking, if you want,
(29:08):
if you show up on time, you leave on time,
and you don't ask for anything special, you are now
like ninety percent of the way there.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean that's a little bleak, but I do
definitely hear what you're saying. It's uh, there's a portion
of the generation that's not going along with it and
is doing the opposite. But anyway, guys, check out the book.
I will link to it in the description and the
show notes. And Leland, it's been a great having you
on the podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Thanks brag appreciate you.
You know. Now, if you believe that pink unicorns are
going to stampede up Pennsylvania Avenue and take over the
White House, there is a YouTube channel for you.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hey, guys, welcome back to the Bread Versus Everyone podcast
and for our interview this week, we are joined by
a NewsNation TV host Leland Vitter for a fascinating conversation
on media bias, independent media, but the persistent persistent importance
of mainstream media as well and interestingly enough, autism and
(00:39):
his new book Born Lucky. Make sure you subscribe like
all that, and now let's get into it. Leland, thanks
so much for coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So I wanted to chat with you in part because
I just appreciate the entire News Nation project. I mean,
you guys are very much on the rise in the
world of cable news and very much geared towards news
for all Americans, not just pandering to Democrats or pandering
to Republicans, but trying to create a news product even
in this divided time that a wide array of Americans
(01:13):
can tune into. So what does that mean to you
and what's your kind of guiding ethos on how you
go about that.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
You know, Brad, appreciate you noticing, thank you. And for me,
it is about having guests and opinions and ideas that
people inherently disagree with and what do I mean by that?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
That?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And I only speak for my show because it's the
one with my name on it, but I do it
every night, and you know, at nine pm every night,
I know what my competitors are going to do, right,
I know that Sean Hannity is going to have a
monologue in which he is going to say that, you know,
Donald Trump is doing forty underwater chess, and then somebody's
(01:59):
going to come to go, no, no, Sean, you don't
understand it is five.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
D underwater Jess.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
So Kaylen Collins is going to come on at nine
pm and raise an eyebrow and ask some kind of
snarky fact check question, and either Sake or Mattaw is
going to come on and do a monologue about how
fascism is upon us, the republic is near its end,
and tomorrow at noon maybe the last day we have
a democracy. And then a guest is going to come
(02:26):
on and go, oh no, no, no, no, you don't
understand the democracy may already be over at this out. Okay,
so that and you laugh, but it's true, right, Yeah,
So what we try to do is be different, and
I think what we're finding is is that there is
a market for people who don't want to just be
(02:47):
told what they already believe and have that reinforced. Right.
And that's why we've sort of gotten so extreme in
America is because now in our silos, we can just
listen to this drivel and it then it's entertaining drivel,
but it's kind of like, you know, it's drug, it's sugar,
it's fentanol, it's whatever you want to compare it to
(03:08):
that you're never you need more and more of it,
you need more and more outraging, you need be more
and more angry in order to get that high that
that people get from watching Fox or MSNBC all day.
And I get it because when I worked at Fox News,
people used to say, I watch Fox News all day
and I'm thinking to myself, oh, boy, like that is
really not good for you. Well, and it's not good
(03:31):
to watch AMSNBC all day. What's different about News Nation
and why we've had success is because yes, I will
do a monologue, I will be completely transparent about how
I feel about an issue, and then I will have
somebody on who disagrees with me, and therefore our viewers
by definition, are going to have to have their own
views challenged. And what's different for us is is that
(03:53):
it's always an adversarial interview. I mean, you know, it's
very rare that somebody comes on and goes, oh, boy Leland,
you are so smart. That's just great. Let me tell
you why you're right. And that's intentional. I mean, it's
not the I'm the only person who sort of has
one side or another to an issue. But it's because
our viewers demand every side be questioned aggressively. And I
(04:15):
think that is what has made News Nation different. It's
why we're successful.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, and it's it makes for more interesting TV. I've
criticized a lot the yes and style of cable news,
so back and more in the Biden administration. I used
to do a lot of a Fox and that is
the style. But it's absolutely the style on on many
networks where the host says something and then the guest
comes on to say, you're so right about that and
(04:41):
this other point that you also agree with. At some point,
I just find that boring. I find that dual as
a news consumer myself, and I also think it's how
you end up making mistakes or getting trapped into an
echo chamber, because it's like you're almost unaware. This is
a little unrelated, but I was covering something on one
of my YouTube channels where a woman went and was
(05:03):
speaking to a California state lawmaker and challenging him on
some of the self id policies they have when it
comes to bathrooms and so anybody can go in a
women's bathroom, and she made the statement trans women are men,
and the whole room gasped. Now, whether you agree with
that statement or not, the idea that that is like
(05:24):
a wild thing to say in public and not something
at least half the country agrees with was just so
indicative to me of what an echo chamber those folks
must be in. Right, progressive, well.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think, yeah, yeah, no. And what I find interesting
in the conversation often is that the left, typically if
you disagree, wants to label you as something and then
demonize you, and the right by and large, and this
(05:58):
is changing, I don't think for the better, but the right,
by and large, for a long time was willing to
have a good faith argument and a good faith conversation
in a way that I don't see un left to
your point. If you know, if you say, you know,
boys shouldn't be in girls' bathroom, there's part of the
population that just kind of can't deal with that reality.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, and it represents an opting out of the actual
democratic process, right, because these issues don't go away from
you buring your head in this hand and saying. There
was a clip I think it was CNN or something,
but some left wing professor, maybe it was Scott Jennings
or someone else, made a statement to the effect of
what you just said or what I said, and he
was like, I will not hear transphobia in my presence,
(06:40):
and he just made He didn't literally plug his ears
and start screaming, but he essentially did the default of that.
And I just find that laughable for people who go
into our business, because I think you're supposed to welcome
the debate and welcome the disagreement, and I think it
keeps you sharp. But then the question is also how
do you handle that? Because I've seen you have guests
(07:00):
from all across the spectrum, right far left. You've got
your Meddi Hassans, You've got right wing people from the
online world, from the media world. But how do you
keep a debate on topic without people hijacking your show
to bring up their pet issue or just changing the
subject or not addressing the actual story. That's one thing
people do that's maddening. And then how do you keep
(07:22):
it from descending into like political Jerry Springer the way
you see on some debate shows, Well.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
A lot of hard work every day, good bookings, understanding
the content really well, anticipating where the where the off
ramps to Jerry Springer are trying to preempt the hijack.
And I think, you know, our viewers, Our viewers want
(07:52):
smart conversation, they want to feel smarter watching. And I
think what's interesting heard me about what's happened with News
Nation is that when I left Fox and I was
starting News Nation and I was trying to book people
for my show, there were a number of people I'd say, oh,
you know, it was I think I had a seven
pm or APM time slot I can't remember. And there
(08:14):
are people who'd be like, oh wow, like I didn't
realize Tucker's off tonight, And I would once they had
been agreed to come on, and then I was like, oh, no, no, no,
I'm not with Fox anymore. On with News Nation, they're like,
what's news Nation? And these are people who are like
members of Congress and to know the media landscape. But
that's how new we were, and you meet people or
(08:37):
people would recognize me and go, are you still with Fox?
Faven seeing you for a while? Why'd you leave? On
and on and on, where are you now? News Nation?
What's that? And now four years later, I've got people
pretty routinely, and especially you know when I'm back home
in Michigan or Missouri, when I'm out visiting my wife's
family in Idaho, down in Florida, through the Midwest, a
(08:59):
lot I have people coming up to me and go like,
I recognize you from News Nation, and I love what
you're doing. I love that you guys are in the
middle and giving back to me what we think we're doing.
And that, to me is the real mark of success,
that what we're doing people are understanding.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, and I
think there's a lot of demand for something different. But
then the risk is that people will tune out or
that they will tune into and I'm more in this
category like independent online media, but I have a more
fact based, a more somewhat centrist approach than a lot
(09:37):
of the people. What do you make of the exodus?
And it's not obviously mainstream media plays an important role
still and television news newspapers still a big role, but
a lot of people have switched to getting their news
exclusively from YouTubers or podcasters, which I would not recommend
even as one of those people. Why do you think
(10:00):
think that happened? How did the news business lose the
trust to everyday people so they even made that switch?
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, losing trust is very easy, right, and it happened slowly,
which it did, and then very quickly, mostly through COVID
because people I think the first Trump administration had something
to do with it. And then I think it got
really exacerbated with COVID because people sort of instinctively understood
that they were being played and taken for fools and
(10:28):
gaslet that sort of obvious things that we all knew
we were being told weren't true, and not only if
not only are they not true, but you can't say
them that said, you know, just follow the money Right
in the very beginning of media, you had one broadsheet
(10:50):
newspaper note the word broad and three broadcast television networks
in each town note the word broad. In order to
make money, they had to appeal to the broadest possible audience.
That meant effectively being in the middle of the bell
shaped curve of American politics. Now, as there was more
money in American media, and as American media sort of
(11:14):
centralized in New York and DC, the Acela Corridor, whatever
you want to call it, it became more and more
liberal and left the Midwest sensibilities behind. Through the eighties
through the nineties, Fox comes along, CNN is there, MSNBC's there.
But still you you've got very relatively speaking, broad swaths
(11:35):
of the population you have to appeal to. You know, now,
if you believe that pink unicorns are going to stampede
up Pennsylvania Avenue and take over the White House, there
is a YouTube channel for you, and that you that
YouTube YouTube producer does it no longer needs multi million
(11:56):
dollar studios and uplinks and a team of porters around
the country or around the world, and tens of millions
of dollars of equipment and hundreds of millions of dollars
or one hundred million dollars worth of salaries every year
to put on their YouTube show. It's a guy in
a basement with a couple of a camera, a couple
of lights, and a picture of a pink unicorn behind him,
(12:18):
and now suddenly he can monetize that. So therefore the
market has driven this. And I think, you know it's
you want to know, You want to know why something's
happening in politics, follow the money, and to a certain extent,
that's true in media as well.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I guess. So my perspective coming out at this is
I graduated college in twenty nineteen and went to work
in conservative media. So I worked at the Washington Examiner,
and at that time, I remember I had a memorable
moment with my boss because I'm somebody who's very online,
very plugged into gen z. I cover internet trends and controversies,
and I said, he told me, well, we should be
(12:55):
writing about what's on cable news. And I said, okay,
of course, but what about what on Reddit? Right? And
he said, looked at me and he said, I'll never
get this. What's Reddit? And of course, in my generation,
it's the homepage of the Internet. Right, it tells you
the number one thing everybody's talking about online. And so
there was a time where I saw the rise of
online independent media and I was extremely bullish on it, right,
(13:19):
I thought it was going to be great, fierce truth
tellers with no partisan loyalty, would would grow and build
an audience and do their own thing. And now, I
mean from the rise of the evil the Nick Fuentes
Is to the to the crazy, to the like un
American left wing Hassan Piker types, the single loudest and
(13:44):
biggest voices are none of those things, right. They're they're conspiratorial,
they're not based in fact, they're hyper tribalist.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Why is a why?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Why is that what we got from this independent meet?
Not to say there's not good stuff, of course there
is as well, but the at least the biggest voices
seemed to be fulfilling the opposite of the promise of
independent media. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Well, I will say, journalists make lousy media critics, and
so I try not to sort of go go into that.
I think the issue you identify with the sort of
the extremes of both worlds. There, you know, with the broadcasters,
(14:34):
there was an overton window, right, an acceptable area in
order to appeal to a broad part of the population
you had to live in And because the people who
ran these networks cared about what people thought of them,
and on and on and on. You know, there were
there were certain there were certain viewpoints that were that
(14:57):
were brought in. I think when it comes to Nick
Fluentes in the far left folks as well, who are
equally hateful and awful, that they are now appealing to
sort of the worst proclivities of an American populace. That
(15:19):
is agreed, right, And you take Fluentes and we're doing
a segment on him tonight. This is somebody who is
now telling young men, in order to fulfill your manhood,
you have to be a racist, misogynist who hates Taylor.
That is the fulfillment of being a man who loves Hitler, right,
(15:43):
which is bewildering to sort of the normal thought process.
You know, I'm older than you, I'm forty three. I
didn't really understand it. I still don't feel I fully
understand it. But I think what comes from is men
for so long, growing up over the past ten years
(16:04):
especially and very much during COVID were told they were
the problem, and any kind of masculinity was beat out
of them, and they were called toxic, and they were
sort of pushed to be very feminine in their behaviors.
And as best I can tell, along comes somebody and says, no,
(16:25):
you're a man, and guys go, you're right, I am
a man. But it's it is a reflection, and the
pendulum keeps being pushed harder and harder each way in
all of these situations. So why is foente popular. It's
because what started as twenty guys on Reddit with tiki
(16:46):
torches in Charlottesville now has a place to grow, and
it's a place that can be monetized. You know, before,
if you thought this kind of stuff, you had to
you know, send nine to ninety nine away plus shipping
and handling for some kind of you know, newsletter that
came out once every six weeks from a po box
in Wilsford, Ohio. H No offense if there's actually a Wilford, Ohio.
(17:10):
But now I can just click on YouTube. And also
if I click on it once, I am going to
be fed and increasing stream of it. Right, yeah, you will.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And it's interesting because I think what you just identified
is true. And this is a similar phenomenon we saw
with Andrew Tait a year or two ago. Why is
this rass, obnoxious dude on the rise. I think it's
because you told men being men as bad, and at
some point they were like, well, all right, if we're
bad regardless, let's actually be bad.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
The you're gonna tell me I'm bad. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
The other thing is is I think we're and I
weren't about this for years. Honestly, we are living with
the results of a boy who cried wolf media and
culture where so many things were called racist or sexist
or homophobic or hateful that were actually just totally innocuous
rest in peace on Jemima right, or they were totally
(18:07):
legitimate opinions and perspectives. And so I think the power
of those words because actual racism is evil, right, Actual
sexism or hatred of women is evil, but the power
of those words was really watered down. And I think
what we're living through with some young people is kind
of an edge lordism where they were so sick of
everything being called racist, they're just not phased by this
(18:28):
guy who's just joking.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Well, I don't think nick for what this is just joking.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
No, I did that in sc scare quotes. Ill rationalize
it that way.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, I think the other part of this and we
can't underestimate this, and this is something I've done a
lot of reporting on, so I feel relatively on firm
round talking about it is. Donald Trump won by taking
those people in twenty sixteen who had been called racist, bigoted, misogynistic, homophobic,
(19:01):
who also wore a hard hat and went down into
a coal mine every day. He looked at all of
them and said, it's your fault, right, And Donald Trump
got up and said, it's not your fault. You're not racist,
you're not misogynistic, you're not focus. I'm gonna fight for you,
you deplorables. I'm fighting for you, right, I'm you you trash.
(19:21):
I'm gonna wear an orange trash vest and go to McDonald's.
He was that, he captured that grievance, and America has
never really been a grievance culture. We are we are
quickly becoming one on the left and right. Same thing,
you know, Fuentes is basically saying to young men, you
know you want to google hot girls, that's what a
(19:43):
man should do right. Men should stand up for their women.
Men should tell you and it and by the way,
any you know, and by the way, I'm standing up
for you right you're you were you young men are aggrieved.
It's not your fault, and I'm here to fight for you.
And that's a very powerful message to people who feel
a grief. It's no different than Zorhan Mandami who looked
(20:05):
at a bunch of you know, twenty three year olds
who have a comparative literature degree and think they should
be able to afford rent in Manhattan and says, you
know what, it's not your fault. You can't afford rent.
It's the landlord's fault. I'm gonna fight for you. And
by the way, it's kind of the Jew's fault too, which,
by the way, tale as old as time. Now, the
(20:26):
left and the right same thing, you know. I mean,
someone outright say it, others will kind of say it,
but you know, it's really the Jew's fault. And that
is the grievance culture we live in.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I think it certainly is. But the question is
how do you Because it's easy when you're telling people
it's not your fault, and the solution is just destroy
the billionaires, or destroy the landlords, or you know, ban
women from voting or whatever. The opposite extreme of that is,
these are the things that are rising to the top,
(20:58):
including the viri le and antisemit, which I am seeing
and is really horrifying. But the question is, how does
the person who says actually who doesn't have the easy scapegoat,
how does that message get out there and compete with
that or how does the truth?
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I believe, Yeah, I still believe in America. I still
believe America is the greatest force for good in the world.
I think most Americans are good people. I think the
best the best disinfectant is sunlight, both on the left
end on the right. That these people need to be
(21:35):
exposed and focused on and face the harsh light and
not be allowed to sort of exist on the fringes
of the world. And I think, you know, in the
same way I really tried to after October seventh that I,
lord knows, got extraordinarily criticized and worse for it. I
(21:56):
took a very strong stand when you're chanting from the
river to the sea your chance about killing Jews, And
I said that over and over and over again, and
everybody says, no, no, these are just college kids who care
about you know, starving Palestinians. And I said, I've been there.
That's not what the situation is. When you're chanting the
same slogans as Hamas, you're pro Hamas, it's very simple.
(22:18):
I think it's incumbent on the right, and thankfully you're
starting to see this, but incumbent to also say the
very same thing about what's happening on the right. If
you were sitting there playing QTS with somebody who says
HiT's great, that's a problem. Now. The flip side of this,
right is the reason Tucker Carlson is saying all these things,
(22:39):
and the reason he went to Russia, and the reason
he's now talking about Kem trails and everything else is
because he wants everybody to focus on him. Tucker hasn't
you know, first it was an insatiable need for money.
He talked about that at one point. Now it's an
insatiable ego, and therefore every three months he says something
that's super outrageous or does something super outrageous, not stupid.
He knew that by playing qut with Nick foyant as
the world would talk about him suddenly, and he needs that,
(23:02):
he needs that attention. I would contend the best thing
that ever happened for truth and the worst thing it
will ever have had have happened to Nick Fluentes is
that he got exposed for who he is. Because now
there's a bunch of moms asking their young sons, what
do you know about Nick Flente's. Jimmy, do you listen
to jim who's Nick Fluente's And Jimmy starts talking about it,
and mom says, well, Jimmy, we're gonna have a little
(23:23):
conversation about what we're watching and why it's important everything else,
which never would have happened unless Jimmy's mom sort of
saw what was happening.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, I mean, I do think that's kind of what
we saw with the Andrew Tate phenomenon. He had a
surgeon popularity, most the rest of America woke up to
what was happening with him, the dark truths about him
came out, and then he fell off into oblivion. I
certainly hope something happens like that to Nick Fuentez. I
do want to I do definitely want to talk about
Born Lucky as well. So thank you congratulations on the
(23:58):
New York Times Best I'm making the last your new book.
I will link for anyone who is interested and correct
me if this is.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I just happened. I just happened to have a copy
right here.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Crazy how that works right now? So I do wonder
and correct myth is wrong. But I believe you're the
only major news anchor who is open about the fact
that they are autistic. Right.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I guess now. It's not something I ever kept track of.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
The Born Lucky story is my dad adapting me to
the world rather than the world to me when I
was diagnosed with autism, and you know, until I was
twenty five, he didn't tell me. He didn't tell his
friend's family, therapist, anybody. It was always just you are
who you are, and you have to take responsibility for
(24:44):
who you are. And this is how life works. And
my dad, you know, held my hand through the adversity
rather than trying to take the adversity away. And I
you know, I appreciate you noting the New York Times
bestseller list. What I I think it shows is how
many families feel so alone now and I'll say it
(25:08):
now now with Born Lucky, they feel like they're not alone, right,
and they feel like this is proof. Born Lucky is
proof of the hope that every parent should have of
a kid who's having a hard time, because there is hope,
and there is so much power in great parenting, and
parents have so much agency and nobody tells them that.
(25:30):
And the thing I've been most taken by Brad since
the book came out is not the sales numbers, but
I have gotten hundreds of emails. And I don't mean like, hey,
love your book. I mean pages of people of parents,
grandparents pouring their hearts out about how this is now
(25:53):
hope for them and what this means for them and
what this means for their kid. And that is you know,
if going to therapy at forty three years old on
TV is about as fun as sitting in a box
full of scissors, ah, let me tell you it is
more lucky some of the worst parts of my life.
But if by talking about it and having honest conversations
(26:14):
about it it helps help kids like me not have
to have as hard of a time as I did,
it's worth it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Well, and I've watched you talk about it a lot
on News Nation, and what sticks out to me, is
this idea of you have a challenge, you have a
unique circumstance that you will overcome and you will adapt
to rather and in our I'm a victim, the world
must conform to me in every possible way. Culture, especially
with young people today, my generation, it's like, there's this
(26:45):
thing on TikTok, a viral thing, the bean soup theory.
A TikToker posted a video sharing her favorite recipe to
bean soup, and the top comment on it ended up being, well,
is there a version for me? I don't like beans?
And it's like, well, then it's it's not for you
because it's been in soup. So sorry, that's a little
(27:09):
bit of a tangent, but I think you get what
I'm saying is like that is just so important in
the context of a world where or a generation where
it's like the world needs to conform to me and
I'm a victim.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah right, Well, let's let's put it this way. In
my house growing up, the world did not conform to me,
and there was a there was a lot of conformity
I needed, and it all came from me conforming because
my dad, I think made the point and this is
what gen Z's learning, right, is that the world doesn't
(27:42):
conform you. I'm sorry, we tried that for a couple
of years, twenty twenty to twenty twenty two or whatever
it was. It didn't work. The world. The world will
now pass you by. And you know, I think it's
why you have all these young people in New York
who were so angry, right because they grew up in
this area, you know, this time when the world conformed
(28:03):
to them. And I don't want to be pejorative about it,
but it was like you knew you. You know, if
you don't want bean soup, we'll find another soup. And
by the way, it's you know, it's your mister, company
or school or whatever's responsibility to make bean soup without beans,
(28:24):
because that's what that's what Johnny requires. And the real
world just ain't that way. And I think we're seeing
that the flip side, and I think this is our
you know, I don't know, I want to say a
cool part of it, but it's really fun, especially some
of the kids on my staff who are exactly the opposite.
I mean, they are just hungry, they want to work,
(28:44):
they want to learn, they don't demand and it's just
so refreshing. And the other thing is, my god, are
they successful? Like I can't hang on to them, like
just promote, promote. Oh sorry that because they are so
successful because the rest of the competition now is so
so much less. It's just there's relatively speaking, if you want,
(29:08):
if you show up on time, you leave on time,
and you don't ask for anything special, you are now
like ninety percent of the way there.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Yeah, I mean that's a little bleak, but I do
definitely hear what you're saying. It's uh, there's a portion
of the generation that's not going along with it and
is doing the opposite. But anyway, guys, check out the book.
I will link to it in the description and the
show notes. And Leland, it's been a great having you
on the podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Thanks brag appreciate you.
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