June 30, 2024 • 57 mins
What if you could fast-track your way to becoming a dental hygienist? Join us as we uncover the secrets of the Alabama Dental Hygiene Program (ADHP) with special guests Kara and Erica. Kara dives into the accelerated path dental assistants can take, transforming into hygienists through a unique blend of on-the-job training and an intensive academic program. Erica, with her 25 years of experience, reflects on the hurdles she faced, including significant pay disparities and limitations when moving to a different state.
The episode also tackles the nationwide shortage of dental hygienists, a problem that has only worsened due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Discover the financial and legal complications that arise as dentists increasingly rely on staffing agencies to fill the gap. We also engage in a heated debate about the qualifications necessary for dental hygienists, comparing seasoned professionals to new graduates and those trained through alternative programs, and how these differences impact patient care.
Finally, we delve into the broader issues plaguing dental hygiene education, such as racial disparities and financial challenges. From the high cost of for-profit schools to the systemic barriers faced by students from underserved communities, we explore actionable solutions to create a more inclusive field. Highlighting the significance of maintaining high educational standards, we emphasize the collective goal of providing top-notch patient care. Tune in to learn how we can support and unite the dental hygiene profession for a brighter future.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Dental-ish season three.
Today we have an importantsubject about Alabama dental
hygiene program coming to SouthCarolina and possibly in other
states, and how this isaffecting our profession, our
actual oral health care patients.
All of the above, and we havespecial guests.
We have some dental hygienistson here that practice in Alabama
that are familiar with theprogram and practice in
(00:21):
hygienists in Georgia who aregoing to provide their feedback
we're going to be actuallytackling you know what the
issues are and how you knowthings can range from zero to a
hundred, bad to worse, mad tobetter.
All of that is an array ofemotions coming through this
podcast.
I feel like and it reallystemmed from a post that was in
Brown Girl RDH, our Facebookgroup, where hygienists were not
(00:42):
so happy to see the transitionfrom dental assistants being
able to train under dentists tobecome dental hygienists,
dentists and other professionalssaying like, hey, there's
different outlooks on here.
These programs have been aroundfor years.
They are successful.
And are we even addressing theissue?
I'm going to start off withKara.
Kara is very familiar, she's adental hygienist and she's very
(01:02):
familiar with the Alabama DentalHygiene Program.
She's going to educate us onwhat this is, because I'm not
really clear about whatrequirements they are.
As far as South Carolina DentalHygiene Association is
proposing, it's a practice actthat's already established in
Alabama.
It's proposed for SouthCarolina and we all know once
one state gets it, then theother states start hopping
aboard.
So, kara, I'll let you have thefloor.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So in the state of Alabama a dental assistant can
work for two years under adentist and then qualify or be
eligible to enter into the ADHPprogram that program is about
usually lasts about 11 months.
During that program they goonce a month down to Birmingham,
to UAB, and they take theircourses In between that time.
(01:46):
In between those Saturdays theyusually do Saturday and Sunday.
In between that time where theygo for the classes they're also
training in the office thedoctor has a complete checklist
over all the things that theyare required to do and also the
student knows as well.
That's pretty much how theprogram runs.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
A certified dental assistant or someone who went to
school first?
What are the requirementsbefore they can do the ADHP?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
program In the state of Alabama.
You don't have to be acertified dental assistant.
A lot of times they are, though, because they have a good
amount of programs here fordental assistants.
So, with that being said,usually the certified dental
assistants are the ones that arechosen by their dentist to go
to those programs.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
It's two years.
They work for the dentist andthen they apply for the program
and in 11 months they actuallygo to the University of Alabama
and they train in this programand then after I saw something
about a thousand hours I don'tknow what that was Then they're
able to practice dental hygiene.
Meaning scalingsubgingiallyally.
Do SRPs or is it limited, justprophies, do you?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
know no.
So throughout the program theyare required.
I think it's 120 patients thatthey're supposed to see
throughout that span and at eachcheckpoint they're supposed to
have done a certain amount ofprophies.
They can only do a certainamount of pediatric patients.
They are required to do acertain amount of SRPs as well.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, so this is a fast track dental hygiene
program targeting dentalassistants.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Pretty much.
I'm taking it as.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
All right.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Erica, so you've been actually practicing in the
state of Alabama for quite sometime now.
Can you let us know how manyyears and you actually went
through the program?
Can you tell us your experience?
Have you worked in other statesor was it just Alabama?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
So I have been in the field for 25 years and so when
I first got into the field Iactually first worked in a lab
and then I decided to go toschool.
So I went to college and got adegree in dental assisting and
then from there, best track forme was to go through this
program that y'all speaking of.
From there I have been doingthis for 25 years.
(03:51):
There's no other states thataccept it.
So I have a moment in my lifethat for a couple of years that
I did move out of the state andI moved to Georgia and I could
not practice in Georgia becauseof those reasons.
So I had to do dental assistingand you know, of course no one,
you know, wants to go back todoing something they used to do.
But you know that's what I hadto do because that was the
(04:11):
requirements of of the state, ofof Georgia.
But I was there for eight yearsand did that.
But I eventually came back toAlabama and I'm back to to doing
hygiene now.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
What is the pay range for dental system that goes
through the ADHP, or are theycompensated just like regular
dental hygienists?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, it's going to be a variety of ranges Because,
just like you know, it's nodifferent from when you go to
other states.
You have other hygienists.
I mean, you have doctors thatpay well, you have doctors that
don't pay well.
It's going to be the sameordeal even in here in Alabama.
You have doctors that payreally, really well.
Do you have some that don't?
I think one of the problems thatno one is looking at is, since
COVID, there has been a lot ofpeople that have come out of the
(04:55):
field, and so now you'relooking at a shortage everywhere
and even though we have theprogram here in Alabama, we
still have a huge shortage goingon, and all across the board,
across the United States.
So I think this is what isgoing on in some states trying
to combat the shortage ofhygienists.
(05:18):
That's going on because thereare more needs than they have.
Hygienists are more needs thanthey have hygienists.
So when you're talking aboutthat, it's like, well, how do we
best still serve the communityand be able to have some
qualified hygienists out there?
So I think that's part of theissue is trying to figure it out
(05:38):
.
And it's not just hygienists,even with assistants.
It's the same thing across theboard.
2020 with COVID just took usinto an area that we had never
been before.
So because of that, a lot ofpeople had so much fear that
they were like, if they was atretirement age, it was hey, I'm
done, I'm just going to go hereand retire.
(05:59):
If they were new to it, it was.
I think I made a mistake.
I don't think I want to do this.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It was the fear.
It was the fear.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So we lost so many people across the board
assistants, hygienists thatwe're still scattering trying to
figure it out four years later.
And so I think that's where allof this comes into play.
How do we serve the community?
How do we, how does everyone goabout this?
(06:28):
Because you think about it'smore need than people that are
going through the schools andgetting the degrees and coming
out to be a hygienist.
It's not enough students comingthrough.
So I guess, with South Carolina, their thought process was to
copy off the Alabama dentalhygiene program, which would
(06:51):
help to combat what they'regoing through.
But we have the program and,trust me, we are still short.
We're very short.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So I got accepted in dental hygiene school in 2009
and I graduated in 2012.
And when I was a dentalassistant cause I was a dental
assistant first, I always wantedto be a dentist, right.
And then I ended up gettingpregnant right out of high
school and I was like, okay, Ican't become a dentist, so let
me just do dental hygiene.
Because that was the second inmy mind.
(07:21):
Like the second to the dentist,it was kind of like a nurse and
I didn't want to do nurse.
And I called the dental hygieneschool and I and I let them
know that I wanted to join theprogram and then I was about to
have a baby and they were like,oh, you need to do dental
assisting.
So I was like, okay, whatever.
So I didn't know the difference.
I didn't know the difference.
So I was like, well, let mejust do the dental assisting
program.
I want to get a job and I wantto be working at a dental office
(07:43):
and it's not the dentist.
So for me, mentally, with theeducation that I had, it was
already a confusion of what adentist versus dental hygienist
versus dental assistant was.
But I did know that the doctorwas the dentist.
Now, fast forward, when Iactually got in the dental
assistant program, it was a year.
It was a year certificationprogram and we did it online and
then we did our training in oneof the dental the local dental
(08:05):
offices.
When I ended up getting intothe field, I was like I don't
want to do this, I want to dowhat the dental hygienist is
doing.
So I called back to the schooland then they were like oh, take
the dental assistant program.
They told me it again.
I said I already did that.
So they're like okay, well, youknow, you can go in here and
come in and apply.
So I ended up applying for theprogram.
When I applied for the program,I actually got in.
They always say there's a pointsystem, it's very competitive.
(08:28):
And I actually got in.
So I was like okay, well, maybeyou know, maybe it's not as
hard to get in.
To this day, we still hearthere's a point system, it's
very competitive to get in.
It's great that if you havedental assistant background.
Now fast forward to the shortage.
I think when I graduated in2012,.
You cannot find a job.
You cannot find a job as adental hygienist.
(08:50):
There were no jobs 2012 to 2014.
Couldn't even find a job.
You still couldn't find a jobthrough 2014, all the way to
2018 is when I started BrownGirl RDH so you couldn't find a
job.
2020, when COVID hit, we wereall in quarantine, everything
kind of shut down.
And that's when the olderhygienists, the more seasoned
(09:11):
hygienists that were like intheir 50s and 60s well, 50s is
still young, but 60s and 70s,yes, there were 70-year-old
hygienists still practicing theygot afraid, they got scared
because of COVID and they leftthe profession.
They definitely did.
Then you had assistants thatand not just assistants, but
everyone that was sitting home,like I just got laid off or
(09:34):
furloughed and I'm going to do aside hustle.
So then everybody started doinga side hustle.
Then you had businesses anddentistry and the temp agency is
like okay, we need to providestaffing.
Well, guess what?
Hygienists couldn't practiceduring COVID-19 because it had
to be emergency procedures.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Then you have.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
They still need the assistance, but they don't need
as many assistance.
So assistants and doctors stillhad their jobs and there was a
little gray area where peoplewere like still doing profis
because they still had to be inbusiness, but then after that a
lot of the RDHs that wereworking for someone and then got
laid off they becameentrepreneurs.
So they were like oh, I'mworking on my business, I'm
starting, you know, I'm starting, you know, my business.
(10:12):
Whatever they were doing, theystarted honing in on that.
Me too, I did the same thing,and that's when Brown Girl, rdh
pretty much took off, because Ihad the time to focus.
Then we go back in theworkforce.
Well, I'm a practice in RDH Nowmy business is booming, it's
taken off.
I'm doing something PPP loan,what's up.
So now I'm like I'm not goingback to the field.
(10:33):
So now we have a shortage ofpeople going back in.
One, they're scared, and two,they're, like I done, bossed up,
and now I'm doing what I'mdoing.
So now you have staffingcompanies being emerged, and
these staffing companies are,you know, they want a piece
right.
So the staffing companies arelike we're temping out.
So now doctors don't havehygienists, so now they're going
to the staffing agencies.
The staffing agencies are likewell, here's my fee, here's our
(10:56):
fee, but then you have to paythe RDH fee.
And if you ended up, if you endup hiring the RDH and the
dentist because dentists werethere too then you have to pay
another fee.
So now the people that arehiring, whether they're small
businesses or corporate offices.
They're like I know Ariel, theRDH over here that used to work
for me.
Let me call her up and see ifshe can just temp and then I'll
(11:17):
end up paying her more right,instead of paying this agency
and risking paying a non-competefee or getting sued because I
didn't hire somebody.
So now they're like I'll justreach out to the hygienist.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
So now the hygienists are like.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, I can just temp for myself.
If you're going to pay the tempagency $25 per hour and you're
going to pay me $28 an hour or$30 an hour, you can just pay me
$50 to $60.
And the offices are like, okay.
So now we have a transition towhere now all the hygienists are
(11:49):
tempting themselves.
They're not really goingthrough the agency.
Some still do, but now they'rejust tempting themselves.
So now the doctors are like,wow, the rates are, you know, 60
.
I know one girl that wasgetting $80 an hour.
The rates are $60 plus.
Well, I can't really afford thatbecause my fees can't afford it
.
But at the same time, if Idon't have a hygienist, I lose
my clients, which are thecustomers which are my bread and
butter.
So now I have to pay for theRDH to come in and clean the
(12:11):
teeth, because I don't want tobe cleaning teeth or diagnosing,
or, you know, I don't want tobe doing perio.
So then they bring thishygienist in that they know they
can't afford.
It's kind of like gas.
Like you know, gas is $5, butyou're like I'm just gonna put
half a tank in there.
So now I'd rather have a temphygienist come in one to two
days a week or one to two days amonth or however they do it,
versus having someone on payrollbecause I can't afford it.
(12:34):
So the shift happened becauseof combination of those things.
But I think where thetransition goes is like, hey,
you have a new grad and that newgrad wants that $50 to $60.
Erica, you have 25 years ofexperience, but you went through
the ADHP program.
So someone that went throughjust a regular two year dental
hygiene program or four yeardental hygiene program maybe
like you're not qualified,although you have 25 years of
(12:57):
experience, which I feelpersonally just my opinion, my
opinion doesn't matter in thissubject, but it's experience,
because some of these dentalhygiene schools and dental
schools are practicing onmannequins.
They're not practicing on lablive patients after COVID-19.
It's a mannequin.
When you're looking at it it'slike I read in a book how to do
open heart surgery.
But have you done it?
Do you have the experience?
(13:19):
I don't want.
I don't want you, you know youpracticing on me.
So there is a combination ofthings.
So everyone is kind of likedesperate a little bit and
everyone's trying to figure itout.
In the end I don't think we'reactually working together.
Kara and Erica, thank you guys.
So much for explaining it,because the way I read the post
immediately everyone's like no,no, no, dental assistants can't
be hygienists and blah blah.
(13:39):
But I did not realize.
It's two years training with adentist first.
Then you go through an 11-monthprogram at the University of
Alabama, which then you know ifthey're qualified they do it.
It's no different than a dentalhygienist going to school
during their two years andcoming out and practicing in
somebody's mouth and noteverybody.
You are who you are Eitheryou're strong clinically or
you're academically smart.
(14:00):
It's very rare that you havetwo of those traits.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Ariel, what's your take on it?
First of all, let me just saysuper interesting already I'm
like over here writing, writingnotes, like wait a minute.
So my take on it is I don't.
I honestly don't think it'sfair as a, as an RDH who had to
go through the program, who it'salmost like.
If you would say like pledgingright, like if you're gonna
pledge a sorority or fraternity,there's no way you're gonna let
somebody just be like.
If you would say like pledgingright, like if you're gonna
pledge a sorority or fraternity,there's no way you're gonna let
somebody just be like, well,you know, my, my mom or my dad
did it or something, so I don'thave to pledge at all or I don't
(14:33):
have to do anything about it.
Like you know you, youdefinitely should go through the
proper training, anything thatyou do.
Like you said, if you went to aopen heart surgery, you're
gonna want somebody who actuallyis, you know, went through the
proper training, learned fromyou know.
Another RDH, to be honest withyou, if, if I could just be
(14:54):
completely honest you knowdentists don't even clean as
well as dental hygienists.
So I don't see how you can justgo two years.
I think Kara said you go twoyears under a dentist and then
you get to be an RDH or whatever.
I just don't think that it'sfair.
If they're going to do that, Ithink it's only in the benefit
(15:14):
of the dentist.
I feel like the dentist justwants to save the money, but
it's not in the best interestfor the patients or actual
dental hygienists you're goingto go if you.
Erica said there's a shortage onboth sides, right?
So you have a shortage withRDHs and you also have a
(15:36):
shortage on DAs.
Well, if you're going to payDAs to become an RDH, a lot of
DAs want to be an RDH anyway.
They just don't want to do theschooling for it.
So you don't want to go throughwhat it is needed to be an RDH.
So if you can go through thisprogram, I feel like there's
going to be it's going to be asnowball effect.
(15:57):
There's going to be a huge, youknow there's going to be a huge
shortage of DAs after a while.
Then there's nobody that'sgoing to want to be a DA,
because RDHs aren't going to godown to what DAs get paid, you
know.
So who's the next line?
Are they going to starttraining the office managers to
become DAs?
Like, how is that going to work?
(16:19):
I just I don't agree with it.
If they are going to do it orif they're doing it already, I
think that they need to make itfair across the board.
I feel like they should takeoff.
We have so many stipulations,especially in Georgia, where
hygienists can't work anywhereelse.
We can't work in you know othersectors.
We can't work at an office for,you know hospitals, or we can't
(16:41):
work in you know other areas.
I feel like we should, theyshould open that up.
You know we can work for anaturopathic doctor, or we can
work, you know, in other sectors.
And then also, I think theyshould just allow us to have our
own spas or or or offices forjust dental cleanings.
You know, like, if you're goingto limit us and you're going to
(17:02):
take our jobs, then I feel likeyou should take off all the
stipulations that you have on us.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I was just want to know what was Ariel's background
.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
I'm a dental hygienist.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
How many years have you practiced?
Six years.
Okay, you're in the state ofGeorgia.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
A couple of points that you made.
Ariel, Thank you for that andthank you, Erica.
The ADHP program has beenaround for years and it is two
years training under a dentistprior to getting in the program.
Just correct me if I'm wrong.
Erica and Kara, that's correct.
Yeah, that's, that's correct,Okay, and after that, two years
practice practicing with adentist first.
Then it's an 11 month programat the university of Alabama and
(17:39):
they have to see 120 patientsin.
I forget how many hours, butthey have to do pro-feeds
cleaning.
So in my I'm understanding itis it's a fast track dental
hygiene program.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Make no mistake about it, the same professors that
are up at UAB teaching dentalschool and there are other
places teaching hygiene at thecolleges are the same professors
that are in this Alabama DentalHygiene Program.
Those are the same professors.
They do not sugarcoat anythingfor you, they do not babysit you
(18:12):
, they do not.
Their job is to give you thematerial, teach you the material
, and your job is to learn thematerial and to take the test so
that you be able to be readyfor your boards.
Your job, in the office, underyour doctor, that's where you do
your training.
So now I know there's amisconception about all of this,
(18:33):
because people will say well,you know how are they training
and who are they.
They're training on livepatients.
Car has been through since me.
It's been a long time sinceI've been through the program,
but CAR correct me if I'm wrongisn't it like 120 patients that
you have to see?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's a total of 120.
And then too, I did want toclarify, martell, during that
11-month period you are workingfull time.
What it is is, in those 11months, every one weekend out of
the month, you're going down toUAB taking those classes over
the week.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Okay, so the 11 months of your two years?
Is it 11 months?
No, okay, so it is two yearsand then 11 months out, right?
Two years and then 11 months,yes, okay.
And then, Justin, I'll let youhave the floor here and give
your take on everything that'shappening.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
My name is Justin Oliver.
I'm a practicing dentalhygienist.
I've been working in the dentalfield for 14 years now.
I have a bachelor's of sciencedegree in dental hygiene and a
master's of arts degree ineducation.
I've had the opportunity toteach both in the technical
college community or technicalcollege system in South Carolina
and also the university systemhere in Georgia In South
(19:43):
Carolina at Orie Georgetown Tech.
I was an associate professor inthe dental hygiene program and
at Georgia State PerimeterCollege I was the second year
clinic coordinator, working veryclosely with students, taking
them from their first yearclinical courses all the way to
graduating, so seeing theirfirst perio patient and things
like that, preparing them forboards.
I think what my concern is isthat you know we have to also
(20:07):
remember the didactic and theclinical skills that are offered
to the student within aneducational program.
I do not believe that thedentist that is working in a
private office or any othersetting is able to offer the
student Hygiene.
Educators are required by theuniversity and or the community
(20:29):
college system to take multiplecourses in methodology that a
regular dentist is not able toor is not required to take.
I do not believe that a dentistworking a nine to five has the
time to clinically educate astudent.
We have been clinicallyeducating students since 1913.
I don't believe there's a needto reinvent the wheel.
(20:53):
I think that more focus shouldbe placed on eliminating
barriers for students to becomedental hygienists, and what I
mean by that is their ability toapply for the program, their
ability to and or the dentalhygiene programs being more
suitable for students ofdifferent backgrounds.
(21:13):
I like to your point.
It's very common, commonlyknown, that if you are a
pregnant lady or if you havesome kind of whatever socio I
don't know whatever issue thatyou might have or situation that
you might be in, that dentalhygiene school won't be the best
fit for you.
I think that more, more, moreenergy should be focused on
(21:35):
creating spaces for students toparticipate fully in the program
.
I don't believe that teaching a, an assistant, how to scale
teeth or or how to scale orpolish or anything like that,
without a dental hygienist thatis qualified to teach and I'm
(21:58):
not just talking about dentalhygienists who work in the field
If you do not have themethodologies or courses in that
, then you're not qualified toteach anyone to do anything.
That's just how I personallyfeel and I just disagree with it
.
I think that, and I do respectthe dental hygiene program as
they have it in Alabama.
(22:20):
I understand that it meets theneeds of their community.
I just feel like we are pastthat in history.
We're past the perspectiveportion of dental of, I guess of
dental history.
I think that no otherprofession will allow this, and
(22:41):
I heard a comment about studentsworking on mannequins.
I do believe that dentistry isone of the few professions that
still require a live patient forboards.
So that is something that evenin the dental hygiene and dental
education, I guess, communitywe have been talking about that
(23:01):
for years.
Why do we require our studentsto bring in a live patient while
nurses don't typically have todo that?
So I think there's a lot ofthings that the dental community
should focus on when it comesdown to preparing students,
making it easier or moreaccessible for students to apply
to the program than justallowing a dental assistant.
(23:24):
That is that we can't reallyverify their standards or their
quality of education just topractice dental hygiene.
We have to remember thatteachers educators are required
by CODA and are required by theuniversity or community college
to participate in methodologycourses.
When you talk about programs oryou talk about dental hygiene
(23:45):
education, all of what is taughtin dental hygiene education has
to be presented to CODA, youknow, so that they know that the
standards are being met.
You know if you're allowingstudents to be taught by
professionals that are noteducators then, how do you
verify the quality of theireducation?
There's no way to do that Now.
(24:05):
Didactic education and clinicaleducation are two different
realms in dental hygiene, twodifferent realms in dental
hygiene education, if that makesany sense.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
You know so.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
I respect that students are able to go to the
university to learn didacticskills, but that doesn't
necessarily prepare you in aclinical setting.
So clinical educators have theability to link what is taught
in didactic into the clinic, andif those professionals are not
present in clinical settings,there's no link.
(24:39):
There is no deep understandingof perio, there is no deep
understanding of any type ofclinical skills.
What you're learning is what isimportant for the dentist that
you're working for.
That could be totally differentthan another dentist that you
could possibly be working for inthe future.
(24:59):
That's what my concern is.
I feel like, as a person thathas taught dental hygiene for
multiple years, there is no wayto verify or validate a person's
experience or their clinicalknowledge if it's not being
given, if the education is notbeing given by a professional
(25:21):
that is qualified to teach them.
That's how I personally feel,if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Okay, thank you for that, Kara.
I wanted to add something tothat.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, I just had a question if he was referring to
them not being taught by, Iguess, just directly from a
hygiene instructor, becausethey're definitely taught by
periodontists.
So I guess I'm confused about,I guess I just would like for
you to clarify what is it thatyou feel like the students are
(25:52):
missing?
Speaker 5 (25:52):
exactly so periodontology in those courses
the dentist is typically beingtaught how to recognize and
diagnose perio, which is a bigthing that we do as hygienists.
We are able to because of ourclinical skills to do that.
But the action of providingnon-surgical periodontal therapy
(26:14):
that portion that a hygienistdoes is not always put to the
most, I guess, is not alwaystaught to the highest standard.
The doctor is a doctor.
Their job is to diagnose andI'm not saying that the
periodontist does not treatbecause they do treat.
The periodontist does not treatbecause they do treat.
(26:36):
But the act of doing orperforming non-surgical
procedures on patients, theperiodontist is not going to
provide the same quality ofeducation that a hygiene
educator that has training andmethodology and degrees in that.
So a lot of hygiene educatorsnot only have their degree in
clinical hygiene but they havesomething else that gives them
(26:56):
the ability or trains them inteaching.
So I don't feel like it's thesame.
I do respect the periodontist,the periodontist, I do respect
what they do.
It's just not.
It's not the same.
We're like the first line ofdefense to their.
You know, as you probablyalready know, doing this for as
long as you have.
You know, we see the patientsfirst, and then, if what we do
(27:19):
does not work, we refer them tothe specialist.
So that's what I personallyfeel.
I just think it's thecoursework is geared for a
different professional.
That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
So wait a minute.
I wanted to add to that.
This is Erica speaking, so I'mjust trying to get some clarity
(27:54):
here.
Can everyone hear me?
I understand what you're saying, that the very people that we
refer to as far as the periowith the specialists, you're
saying that they're notqualified to teach us, even
though we're not qualified to dotheir job.
Am I hearing that correctly?
Speaker 5 (28:09):
I think that what I'm saying is that the
methodologies that are used inthe perio courses that are
geared toward dentists do notmeet the standards of what a
hygienist does professionally ona day-to-day basis.
I think that those courses aregeared to diagnosing perio and I
think that what is done inhygiene school is geared to the
(28:33):
hygienist.
It is geared to the first lineof defense of perio.
It's not the same To me.
I understand what you're saying, but I think when you look at
it from a methodology standpointit's almost, I hate to say,
like comparing apples to oranges.
But and I'm not trying tooverstep the paradigm but we're
not doctors, so the courses arenot going to be geared toward
(28:56):
what a doctor is and how he dothings, not from the hygiene
standpoint of it.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
But this program has been around for years and they
have tweaked the program leftand right.
Trust me when I tell you theprogram is geared towards the
hygienist.
This is not just a paradigm iscoming in teaching.
You know what he does from hisstandpoint.
It is taught from thestandpoint of a very trained
hygienist.
The hygienists that are therethat also help to train do have
(29:46):
master degrees.
So they, you know, they arequalified to teach because they
can teach on a college level.
So I think there's a lot ofmisconception and I challenge
everyone to dig a little bitdeeper to see what the program
is about.
Now I don't know how SouthCarolina is going to set their
program up.
I can't, you know, I can'tspeak on that in their terms.
(30:08):
However, I do, you know, kindof get and understand the fears
that everyone have with aprogram like this coming out.
I get it, I totally get it.
But in Alabama, if we're, ifwe're speaking of, you know,
this is the Browns Girls RDHwhen you're looking at the state
of Alabama, there's a lot of usthat are brown skin that would
(30:31):
have never had the opportunityto become a hygienist.
Why?
Because a lot of schools wouldnot accept us, and I'm talking
about my 25 years of experience.
Back then you was not going toWallace State because Wallace
State was not going to let youcome through.
Do you understand what I'msaying?
So for us, for us as brown RDHs, this was the only opportunity
(30:55):
that we had.
It was the only opportunitythat we had and a lot of us came
through under under doctorsthat was that looked like us
because they knew.
They knew we were not gettingthese same opportunities to be
able to step into these collegesand compete with their
counterparts.
They knew this.
(31:16):
So this program, which theycould not deny you out of the
program, if you turned yourpaperwork in and you met all of
the qualifications, they had tolet you in.
Now everything else was on you,because they don't sugarcoat
you on that Either you got thematerial and you pass it and you
will go to the class, and I'mjust using this, for example,
(31:37):
Maybe by the time you startthere's 300 people in the class.
By the time you finish, itmight be 75 people in the class
that finish, Because they dropyou out like flies every week If
your test grades are not acertain amount.
And they know from here on out,if you get 100 from here on out
out, you still not going topass.
(31:57):
So they drop you.
They don't sugarcoat it for you, they're not walking you
through this, but this programwas the only program us Blacks
had because we could not get inany other way.
So when y'all was speaking andjudging Alabama's program, I
can't speak for South Carolina.
(32:18):
And now times have changed.
Now we do have opportunities togo to the schools and compete
and everything else, but forthis program we did not.
So this program was our breadand butter and all we had for
those that did want to go tohygiene school.
This was it for us.
(32:40):
So you know, for some of us wetake it a little personal,
because y'all don't understandthe aspect of the walk.
We had to walk to get to thispoint.
And I know y'all are sayingwell, you know, what about this?
What about?
Basically, the only thing thatthey have done was taken out all
of the prereqs and you getstraight to doing hygiene.
This is what they have done andyes, it's a fast track, but you
(33:02):
got to be able to keep up oryou're dropped.
They don't care about you.
To pay your money?
They don't.
They don't care about any ofthat.
When I tell you they do notsugarcoat it.
You get the material or youdon't.
Now, when it comes to hands-on,you could be the best hygienist
or you could be the worsthygienist.
It's all going to depend on whoyou are morally and what you
(33:25):
want to bring to the table andwho you are as a hygienist.
So now we're going to comparethis.
We also have the school here,so now we're going to compare
this.
We also have the school here.
Wallace State been around foryears, but at sometimes they
they were not you're going toplot, but they don't mean that
you was going to get your brownself into that school, right.
So now you compare the studentsthat come from this program
(33:53):
compared to and I've been doingthis for 25 years, so I've been
doing a lot of comparing andthere are good and bad
hygienists.
No matter where you go, I don'tcare what education you have, I
don't care what degree you have.
This comes down to hands on andyour knowledge.
That's what all of this boilsdown to.
(34:26):
And in the state of Alabama,let me tell you, after 25 years
and going to other states, justlooking around and seeing
different things, we have always, as you get, top pet.
I'm over here.
I'm the best hygienist.
I jump through all the hoops.
I go up and beyond.
This has always been the fight,and over here I'm just speaking
from this standpoint becausethis is the standpoint that I'm
in and this is what I know.
With hygiene, we always andCara knows this herself we have
(34:49):
to be way better than ourcounterparts.
So when you're talking aboutjudging us from the standpoint
of the knowledge and thehands-on, I challenge y'all, any
day of the week, if y'all wannacome to Madison, Alabama, Aspen
, Dental, come.
I will welcome you with openarms and let you see what this
(35:10):
is all about.
I promise you you will changeyour mind on some of these
aspects of the way that youthink, but I just wanted to step
in and let you see what this isall about.
I promise you you will changeyour mind on some of these
aspects of the way that youthink, but I just wanted to step
in and let y'all know like, hey, this has been a platform for
many of us that are brown skin.
So you know, let's not knock ittoo much here again.
Times have changed.
Doors are now opening left andright.
(35:31):
You know some of this is not achallenge anymore.
So I get it.
But you know, for some of us.
This was our only way, so I'mgonna yield that and let y'all
head the floor.
Thank, y'all.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
May I make a few comments to that?
I'm sorry if I'm interruptinganyone.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, I would like to sayspeaking on racial disparities
in dentistry is a very in-depthconversation and I do respect
that the Perseverance programhas allotted a lot of brown
people, especially black women,you know, some kind of foot into
(36:05):
this profession.
We also have to talk about theladies that were the pioneers
for going to programs.
That were the pioneers forgoing to programs.
So I graduated from the MedicalCollege of Georgia, which was
the first dental program anddental hygiene program in the
state of Georgia.
If you meet ladies thatgraduated in the 70s and the 80s
, they were Black ladies.
(36:25):
They would talk to you.
They would speak of how whitedentists and dental hygienists
did not want to work with them.
So it's not a one-sidedconversation.
Honestly there are racialdisparities between both of the
communities.
But I don't feel as if I sayall that and say I just don't
(36:47):
feel that a person, that aprofessional, a dentist, that
does not have the skill set inclinical methodology has the
ability to provide a studentwith the same quality of
clinical education that ahygiene professor is able to.
(37:07):
I just don't feel that way.
I feel as if me, with myexperience with dentists and I'm
not saying all dentists are thesame, but what I have seen, or
what I've grown to know, is thatthe dentist is very concerned
about their bottom line andwhatever that looks like is
whatever that looks like, andthat sometimes does not.
And I'm not saying all dentistsare like that, but I'm just
(37:29):
saying that that sometimes doesnot equate to a really healthy,
solid clinical educationalexperience.
When someone says to you adentist, that every five
millimeter pocket is SRP andthey're unable to look at x-rays
from a dental hygienistperspective and gauge the
(37:50):
clinical attachment level aloneperspective and gauge the
clinical attachment level a lotthey're unable to gauge.
You know even calculus in anx-ray.
Or now that the 4346 code isthis big thing, you know I've
seen dentists you know this ismy personal experience say, oh,
this patient, you know we didSRP last year on this patient.
It didn't work.
Now we're going to do a 4346 tokind of get them back, things
(38:12):
like that.
You see how some dentists arevery concerned with their bottom
line and dental hygieneeducators tend to take the cost
of what it is out of that and goright into what needs to happen
or the diagnosis or what needsto happen for the patient.
(38:34):
And I also want to talk aboutthe history of dental hygiene
education.
So we're not just talking about, you know, a dentist clinically
training someone.
We're talking about how we havehistorically treated patients,
what it is to be a dentalhygiene provider, healthcare
provider, that is.
Dental hygiene and dentistryare two separate fields that we
(38:56):
might work hand in hand together.
We're not the same.
In states like in Californiayou'll see a dental hygiene
board that is separate fromdentistry.
So those soft skills that arealso taught clinically by a
hygiene educator, that can onlyreally be given to you by a
hygiene educator that only canget that, can only really be
given to you by a hygienistthat's been doing this and that
(39:18):
has those, those that trainingand methodology the dentist
doesn't have.
That so it's, it's more thanjust clinically seeing the
patient.
It's a, it's a legacy ofeducation, it's a legacy of what
we do that is not being offeredto students that are being
taught hand-in-hand,side-by-side by a dentist that
(39:40):
is actually their employer.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Thank you so much for that.
I love the conversations, Ilove how this is going, I love
the outlooks of everything.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I did want to clarify , like with the student while
they are in that program, a lotof times a lot of offices will
pair that hygiene student with ahygiene mentor.
I know, especially if you'regoing and you're working for a
corporate office, they usuallyalways are going to pair you
with a hygiene mentor.
So not only do you have thatdentist instructing you, a lot
(40:11):
of times you have your seasonedhygienist in the office that are
also used as a support and anaid as well.
I did want to just kind ofclarify that.
But I totally get what you'resaying, justin, with being, you
know, strictly a hygieneeducator, how that would be
maybe more effective, you know,than going this route.
But I just didn't want you guysto think that, oh, they're just
(40:32):
out there willy-nilly with thedentist.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Let me just say this we on here are like well, I
think, and I think, and I thinkand I don't know, unless you
actually studied this program,we really can't.
We can have an opinion all daylong, but it's not a fact, it's
a feeling, so go ahead.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Yeah, I just wanted to tell you guys, you know, like
, as dental hygienists, we'renot judging you, don't take it.
Don't take it personal.
We're not judging the program.
We understand the things thatyou guys had to go through to go
through the program and whatnot.
But I know dental hygienistswho were the only Black person
(41:09):
in their program as well andthey pushed through regardless.
Only black person in theirprogram as well and they push
through regardless.
You know, it's just, Iunderstand back then that's all
you had.
But we're here now and there'sI.
There was only actually onewhite girl in my program so she
was actually the minority of theclass and overall dental
hygienists, we only make upblack dental hygienists we only
(41:30):
make up three percent.
So you know, we're every dentaland we're going to dental
hygiene school, we're goingthrough the full program,
through the full process.
You know you can't take, we'rejust saying you know, I think
we're a bit protective over our,our, let you know, rdh over
(41:51):
over our, because we did gothrough the process.
There's a lot of us that wentthrough.
I was lucky to have a programwhere my instructor looked like
me and I understand, you know.
But there's, I have friends, Ihave other hygienists who, like
I said, they were the only blackor the only male.
(42:11):
You know what I'm saying.
It's not just about color, youknow, it's there's.
You know where you, where.
They were the only one and theystill push through the full
program.
I just don't personally feellike you can learn what we know
in a matter of 11 months justgoing on the weekends.
This wasn't a weekend thing forus, this was a lifestyle.
Some of us had to quit our jobs.
(42:32):
Some of us had to live withfamily members.
Some of us had to live withfamily members.
Some of us had to, you know, gothrough the trenches to get
where we are.
I know I cried every single daywhen I was in dental hygiene
school and it was just a lot.
So you know it's just like.
I think that for hygienists, youknow it's like just because you
(42:54):
took a couple classes, that orwent through 120 patients or
whatever, it doesn't make you adental hygienist.
Like you didn't go through theprogram.
So it's just like a wife.
You know you have a girlfriendand a wife.
You know that that wife isgoing to be like you can't do
what I do or say what I say,because I'm that just because
(43:16):
you have a dentist, if you havea general dentist right, and you
have a dentist that went to aspecialty, you know that general
dentist is is going to refer tothat specialty because they are
.
They did not go througheverything that that specialty
dentist went through, whetherit's endo, whatever it is,
(43:38):
whether it's perio.
So that's all I wanted to say.
We're just quite protectiveover our profession and I think
that we went through a lot toget through our program as well,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
So what I want to add here is that everyone has a
unique perspective on how theysee everything that's going on
here and everyone is going tolook at it by default from an
educator standpoint, from RDHthat went through the ADHP
program, from a clinical dentalhygienist perspective.
You're going to see it fromthere and the opportunity that
(44:13):
we have on this podcast is toshare everyone's perspective.
Who we don't have you know onhere.
We can say you know the dentistyou know don't want to pay, or
you know it's not our faultbecause the reimbursements are
low.
My job as founder of Brown GirlRDH, which is a nonprofit,
which we are here for the people, my job is to understand and to
(44:33):
connect the dots.
How do we serve our people,right?
So when we're talking aboutaccess to care, when we're
talking about who gets seen what, when we talk about not having
enough hygienists right, nothaving enough hygienists to work
in these offices to see thesepatients, we're talking about an
epidemic.
We're talking about an oralhealth crisis.
We're talking about an epidemic.
(45:01):
We're talking about an oralhealth crisis.
We're talking about, in the USSenate, discussing the dental
hygiene workforce, the dentalworkforce, barriers on access to
care, like we keep forgettingabout that big aspect when we're
talking about.
You know, this is how I feel.
This is what school I went toand this is the disparities that
we went through indiscrimination.
But let's not forget about thepeople.
So what's the solution?
Creating this program in SouthCarolina, adapting the program
that Alabama has?
It's just putting a band-aid onthe issue we need to tackle.
(45:24):
Justin said earlier, we need totackle the issue.
This might not be the answer.
Let's just fast track or let'sjust create more programs.
That has been working inAlabama in so much respect to
the program that's there and allthe hygienists that went
through it.
But that's not the issue.
The issue is really trying tofigure out why we have such a
shortage and let's tackle theshortage.
(45:45):
So that means not having thosebarriers for, you know,
minorities or people from, youknow, disadvantaged backgrounds
to get into the programs.
You know taking the red tape outof those programs or creating
programs ourselves within ourcommunities that will help
pipeline students from thisinner city school here in North
Carolina to where, okay, nowthis high school student can go
(46:08):
from high school to dentalassisting, to working in a
practice, getting clinicalexperience, to applying to
dental hygiene school, to comingback to the dental practice, to
working in it, to getting theirstudent loans paid off, to
going back to dental school, tocome back.
We're talking about an actualpipeline and during the program
(46:29):
of this pipeline, if a highschool student ends up getting
pregnant or they end up losing,you know, money, they can't work
through the program and thedental hygiene program and now,
for some reason, they don't havemoney to pay their rent.
So they have to choose betweenpaying my rent, taking care of
my child, or going through thisprogram where they can't work.
Well, we're talking abouthaving a support system and a
program in place to where, hey,we're covering your housing
(46:51):
while you're in this program andall you have to do is get
through school.
I'm not talking about takingout student loans to get through
a program.
I'm talking about providingsupport, providing a pipeline
and during the program, if thisindividual ends up, you know,
having a child like, we're hereto support that student through
that transition.
A lot of people have to drop outbecause, you know, they end up.
(47:13):
Oh, I ended up getting pregnant, or I ended up losing my job,
or my mom, you know, you knowher mortgage or whatever.
It is Like we have differentissues.
I remember when I was in dentalhygiene school, everybody was
freaking out because they had tostudy for boards.
My daughter had a fever.
She was two years old.
She had the flu and a fever andI had to worry about her.
And I have this girl heretalking about how she got to
(47:34):
wash the dishes.
So it's just like we havedifferent issues.
We have different stressorsthat we have to tackle
systemically in traditionallyand generationally that we have
to tackle.
So we need to find a solutionto how do we get this high
school student that have wouldnever had the opportunity to get
to becoming a doctor or dentalhygienist, how do we get them
(47:55):
from where they are to the end?
This is one of the things thatBrown Girl RDH is working on.
So we do have a program and itis the Hygiene High School
Dental Hygiene Program and we'regetting into these schools and
we're mentoring these studentsand we're helping them through
the pipeline of hey, you'regoing to go to dental assistant
school.
Once you're done with dentalassistant school, you will
(48:16):
practice and get hired in one ofthese dental offices that Brown
Guard EDH is affiliated with.
Once you're through thatprogram.
You will then apply.
We will help you apply fordental hygiene school.
Whether the dental hygieneschool be in Alabama, texas,
florida, it doesn't matter.
We will help you apply for itand then we will give you the
resources and have bays and havedental hygiene homes to where
you can live.
(48:36):
The most expensive thing indental hygiene school and I see
it with these students withdollar ships when they're asking
is their tuition.
Why aren't we funding thesestudents?
People have $78,000 of tuitionfor a two-year dental hygiene
program for a for-profit schooland they get in there.
We're not the most financiallyaware.
You know I can't take out allthese student loans and think
(48:58):
I'm going to get through theprogram and not have a game plan
.
I just want to get in, like,let me get in and I'll figure it
out later.
So students get in theseprograms and then they can't
register for courses becausethey have a balance and they
can't pay for their tuition andthe for-profit schools.
They will say no, you cannotregister.
So if I'm a dental hygienestudent going into my second
year or my second or thirdsemester and I have a balance
(49:20):
and I can't pay for it, what amI gonna do?
I'm gonna default to droppingout.
Trying to do a GoFundMe, like, Isee all of the scholarship
applications come in time andtime again and it's like they
get in but it's just like we'rehurrying up to let them in, to
check the box, right, and thenthey, they, they drop out, they
fail, they don't make it through.
That's not helping the accessto care, because we know we're
(49:43):
the professionals that are goingto go back to the federally
qualified health centers andwe're going to work and we're
going to go back in ourcommunity and we're going to
take those lower wages.
That's where our heart is.
Pretty much Most people thatare missing teeth are poor.
Like that's the indication thatthey are poor.
Try to get a job.
With a missing tooth or missingteeth, you're not going to get
a job.
How do you live?
Why is this?
Because dentistry is soexpensive, right?
(50:04):
Why is dentistry so expensive?
It has nothing to do with theRDH, it has nothing to do with
the schools, with inflation,okay, let's face it.
Now people are going overseasto get dental care.
A root canal in the US is$1,200.
Up you go to India, it's $250.
So people can't even afforddental care.
This issue is bigger than usright.
This is an economic issue andwe need to stop the bleeding,
(50:25):
because fast tracking or tryingto create more dental assistants
, that's not the solution.
It is finding a way to getMartel from being a pregnant
high school student to, you know, a dental hygienist, to a
doctor.
It's how do we pipeline thesestudents?
And then guess where I go Todental practices, to where you
know we do accept Medicaid, wedo have that sliding fee scale,
(50:47):
we do employ brown skin people,we do give the opportunities.
It's no secret that when youlook at some dental practices,
you just see all white faces.
If you don't think that'sstrategic, it really is, because
some of these doctors that haveprivate practice and I'm not
talking about all of them theywant a certain look for their
hygienist.
So you're already tapping out.
(51:08):
So I understand all differentaspects in it.
For me, it's like what is thesolution?
How do we help the people?
How do we serve our people?
How do we get in these othercommunities?
This is pretty much a call toaction.
What can we start doing toparticipate, to help the issue?
The issue is not creating moredental hygienists.
The issue is serving the peoplewho have the needs, serving the
(51:29):
people who are flying overseasto get down treatment, who are
in the hospitals and the ERsbecause they have a toothache,
who have cardiovascular diseaseor who have arthritis because
they have untreated periodontalconditions.
That's what we should befocusing on and I just feel like
everyone has their.
We should do this, we shouldn'tbe doing this, but we're really
just putting a bandaid.
It's very sad because we'rejust putting a bandaid on the
(51:51):
issue, but if we stop thebleeding, get into these schools
or these neighborhoods or theserural communities and start
creating providers andpipelining them.
I don't know if you guys knowthis, but only one third of
dentists even accept Medicaid.
Some of them are droppingregular insurance because
they're like, hey, regularinsurance is not paying what we
need to.
I can't afford to open mybusiness.
I can't afford a hygienist.
(52:11):
Try paying a Medicaid.
Reimbursement for a prophy is$26.
Try paying your hygienist $60an hour.
It's not going to work.
That's not.
That doesn't make businesssense.
Walmart is a billion dollarcompany, the most powerful
company in the world, the mostpowerful, one of the most
powerful companies in the world,and they just closed down 51
dental clinics because it wasn'tprofitable.
(52:32):
If Walmart shutting down 51dental clinics, what do we
really think is going to happento our profession as a whole?
My solution is hey, let's go towhere the people are, let's go
to where you know, let's stopthe bleeding, let's get into
these schools, let's create moreproviders, however we can
create it, but I'm just throwingmore therapists or dental
hygienists out there andassistants.
(52:53):
I don't think.
I don't think that's the answer.
You need people who care aboutpeople and I think that's what
we should be focusing on, and alot of you said that in so many
ways.
But this is not about us.
This is not about the dentistnot wanting to pay.
This is about where ourprofession is going and how can
we help the people.
If the senate says there's aworkforce shortage and a crisis
(53:15):
and we need to be looking atthat like this is not just in
our city, this is globally.
So it's very sad to see and um,everything, but it's just like
all right, how do we serve ourpeople?
If you're, if you guys areinterested, anyone listening,
interested in learning moreabout our hygiene high school
pipeline and how you can supportand help with our program, like
it is an effect and that is ourmission, and with any closing
(53:38):
words, hey guys.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
yeah, you can find me .
You can go on my website,arielvrdhcom.
I'm a children's book authorand I love things like this.
Thank you for having me on here.
My handles are at arielvrdh.
Arielvdh, that's the handle.
Yeah, definitely, and myclosing statement is just thank
(53:59):
you, martel.
And that's what I was talkingabout, about allowing you know.
If they're going to do that,then opening up opportunities
for hygienists, rdhs, to work indifferent sectors and helping
people in hospitals,naturopathic offices and things
like that.
So exactly what I'm talkingabout.
Thank you, martel.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
I was just going to close with thank you again for
hosting this.
I do think that we got a lot ofinsight today on.
You know both sides.
But, I just want to.
I just want to leave this foreverybody.
It doesn't matter how.
To me, it doesn't matter howyou came into this field.
At the end of the day, weshould support each other
regardless.
I do believe everyone's heartis in the right place.
(54:39):
Everybody is, you know, seekingto serve patients, seeking to
do the right things by patientsas well, and also students, our
future hygiene students.
So I just wanted to leave withthat.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
First off, I want to say thank you for having me.
I appreciate it and just to addon, this is, at the end of the
day, it is what you were saying.
It is about the people that weserve, it's about the public and
it's about giving them the bestcare possible.
And at the end of the day, youknow, I don't know what's going
to happen.
I don't know as far as what'sgoing on in South Carolina.
(55:14):
In the program, a lot of timesyou know, whether we like it or
not, some things happen and somethings changes.
I guess the input would be howcan we make things better as a
whole?
This platform exists for areason and we have to think of
it in the sense of you know, howcan we be better?
How can we be better,regardless of the background?
Speaker 5 (55:55):
How can we be better as RDH and how can we better
does not indicate youreducational level or standard,
and always try your best tocreate those links that you
learn in school to betterprovide service to your patients
.
You know.
Let them know that you have aneducational experience.
A lot of times, patients don'tsee us as educated.
(56:18):
You know, always, reiteratewhere you came from.
You know the qualificationsthat you have and why you are
the best professional to providethe services that you provide.
Those are my ending statements.
Thank y'all.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
This has been a great , inspirational and full of a
lot of information for me.
I know for sure If you want tolearn more about the High School
to Hygiene program, you canreach out to Brown Girl RDH.
Info at browngirlrdhorg.
You can find us at Brown GirlRDH on all social media
platforms or you can email us ifyou wanted to learn more or be
involved.
Thank you, guys.
Welcome to Dental-ish season three.
Today we have an importantsubject about Alabama dental
hygiene program coming to SouthCarolina and possibly in other
states, and how this isaffecting our profession, our
actual oral health care patients.
All of the above, and we havespecial guests.
We have some dental hygienistson here that practice in Alabama
that are familiar with theprogram and practice in
(00:21):
hygienists in Georgia who aregoing to provide their feedback
we're going to be actuallytackling you know what the
issues are and how you knowthings can range from zero to a
hundred, bad to worse, mad tobetter.
All of that is an array ofemotions coming through this
podcast.
I feel like and it reallystemmed from a post that was in
Brown Girl RDH, our Facebookgroup, where hygienists were not
(00:42):
so happy to see the transitionfrom dental assistants being
able to train under dentists tobecome dental hygienists,
dentists and other professionalssaying like, hey, there's
different outlooks on here.
These programs have been aroundfor years.
They are successful.
And are we even addressing theissue?
I'm going to start off withKara.
Kara is very familiar, she's adental hygienist and she's very
(01:02):
familiar with the Alabama DentalHygiene Program.
She's going to educate us onwhat this is, because I'm not
really clear about whatrequirements they are.
As far as South Carolina DentalHygiene Association is
proposing, it's a practice actthat's already established in
Alabama.
It's proposed for SouthCarolina and we all know once
one state gets it, then theother states start hopping
aboard.
So, kara, I'll let you have thefloor.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
So in the state of Alabama a dental assistant can
work for two years under adentist and then qualify or be
eligible to enter into the ADHPprogram that program is about
usually lasts about 11 months.
During that program they goonce a month down to Birmingham,
to UAB, and they take theircourses In between that time.
(01:46):
In between those Saturdays theyusually do Saturday and Sunday.
In between that time where theygo for the classes they're also
training in the office thedoctor has a complete checklist
over all the things that theyare required to do and also the
student knows as well.
That's pretty much how theprogram runs.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
A certified dental assistant or someone who went to
school first?
What are the requirementsbefore they can do the ADHP?
Speaker 2 (02:09):
program In the state of Alabama.
You don't have to be acertified dental assistant.
A lot of times they are, though, because they have a good
amount of programs here fordental assistants.
So, with that being said,usually the certified dental
assistants are the ones that arechosen by their dentist to go
to those programs.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
It's two years.
They work for the dentist andthen they apply for the program
and in 11 months they actuallygo to the University of Alabama
and they train in this programand then after I saw something
about a thousand hours I don'tknow what that was Then they're
able to practice dental hygiene.
Meaning scalingsubgingiallyally.
Do SRPs or is it limited, justprophies, do you?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
know no.
So throughout the program theyare required.
I think it's 120 patients thatthey're supposed to see
throughout that span and at eachcheckpoint they're supposed to
have done a certain amount ofprophies.
They can only do a certainamount of pediatric patients.
They are required to do acertain amount of SRPs as well.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, so this is a fast track dental hygiene
program targeting dentalassistants.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Correct.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Pretty much.
I'm taking it as.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
All right.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Erica, so you've been actually practicing in the
state of Alabama for quite sometime now.
Can you let us know how manyyears and you actually went
through the program?
Can you tell us your experience?
Have you worked in other statesor was it just Alabama?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
So I have been in the field for 25 years and so when
I first got into the field Iactually first worked in a lab
and then I decided to go toschool.
So I went to college and got adegree in dental assisting and
then from there, best track forme was to go through this
program that y'all speaking of.
From there I have been doingthis for 25 years.
(03:51):
There's no other states thataccept it.
So I have a moment in my lifethat for a couple of years that
I did move out of the state andI moved to Georgia and I could
not practice in Georgia becauseof those reasons.
So I had to do dental assistingand you know, of course no one,
you know, wants to go back todoing something they used to do.
But you know that's what I hadto do because that was the
(04:11):
requirements of of the state, ofof Georgia.
But I was there for eight yearsand did that.
But I eventually came back toAlabama and I'm back to to doing
hygiene now.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
What is the pay range for dental system that goes
through the ADHP, or are theycompensated just like regular
dental hygienists?
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, it's going to be a variety of ranges Because,
just like you know, it's nodifferent from when you go to
other states.
You have other hygienists.
I mean, you have doctors thatpay well, you have doctors that
don't pay well.
It's going to be the sameordeal even in here in Alabama.
You have doctors that payreally, really well.
Do you have some that don't?
I think one of the problems thatno one is looking at is, since
COVID, there has been a lot ofpeople that have come out of the
(04:55):
field, and so now you'relooking at a shortage everywhere
and even though we have theprogram here in Alabama, we
still have a huge shortage goingon, and all across the board,
across the United States.
So I think this is what isgoing on in some states trying
to combat the shortage ofhygienists.
(05:18):
That's going on because thereare more needs than they have.
Hygienists are more needs thanthey have hygienists.
So when you're talking aboutthat, it's like, well, how do we
best still serve the communityand be able to have some
qualified hygienists out there?
So I think that's part of theissue is trying to figure it out
(05:38):
.
And it's not just hygienists,even with assistants.
It's the same thing across theboard.
2020 with COVID just took usinto an area that we had never
been before.
So because of that, a lot ofpeople had so much fear that
they were like, if they was atretirement age, it was hey, I'm
done, I'm just going to go hereand retire.
(05:59):
If they were new to it, it was.
I think I made a mistake.
I don't think I want to do this.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
It was the fear.
It was the fear.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
So we lost so many people across the board
assistants, hygienists thatwe're still scattering trying to
figure it out four years later.
And so I think that's where allof this comes into play.
How do we serve the community?
How do we, how does everyone goabout this?
(06:28):
Because you think about it'smore need than people that are
going through the schools andgetting the degrees and coming
out to be a hygienist.
It's not enough students comingthrough.
So I guess, with South Carolina, their thought process was to
copy off the Alabama dentalhygiene program, which would
(06:51):
help to combat what they'regoing through.
But we have the program and,trust me, we are still short.
We're very short.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So I got accepted in dental hygiene school in 2009
and I graduated in 2012.
And when I was a dentalassistant cause I was a dental
assistant first, I always wantedto be a dentist, right.
And then I ended up gettingpregnant right out of high
school and I was like, okay, Ican't become a dentist, so let
me just do dental hygiene.
Because that was the second inmy mind.
(07:21):
Like the second to the dentist,it was kind of like a nurse and
I didn't want to do nurse.
And I called the dental hygieneschool and I and I let them
know that I wanted to join theprogram and then I was about to
have a baby and they were like,oh, you need to do dental
assisting.
So I was like, okay, whatever.
So I didn't know the difference.
I didn't know the difference.
So I was like, well, let mejust do the dental assisting
program.
I want to get a job and I wantto be working at a dental office
(07:43):
and it's not the dentist.
So for me, mentally, with theeducation that I had, it was
already a confusion of what adentist versus dental hygienist
versus dental assistant was.
But I did know that the doctorwas the dentist.
Now, fast forward, when Iactually got in the dental
assistant program, it was a year.
It was a year certificationprogram and we did it online and
then we did our training in oneof the dental the local dental
(08:05):
offices.
When I ended up getting intothe field, I was like I don't
want to do this, I want to dowhat the dental hygienist is
doing.
So I called back to the schooland then they were like oh, take
the dental assistant program.
They told me it again.
I said I already did that.
So they're like okay, well, youknow, you can go in here and
come in and apply.
So I ended up applying for theprogram.
When I applied for the program,I actually got in.
They always say there's a pointsystem, it's very competitive.
(08:28):
And I actually got in.
So I was like okay, well, maybeyou know, maybe it's not as
hard to get in.
To this day, we still hearthere's a point system, it's
very competitive to get in.
It's great that if you havedental assistant background.
Now fast forward to the shortage.
I think when I graduated in2012,.
You cannot find a job.
You cannot find a job as adental hygienist.
(08:50):
There were no jobs 2012 to 2014.
Couldn't even find a job.
You still couldn't find a jobthrough 2014, all the way to
2018 is when I started BrownGirl RDH so you couldn't find a
job.
2020, when COVID hit, we wereall in quarantine, everything
kind of shut down.
And that's when the olderhygienists, the more seasoned
(09:11):
hygienists that were like intheir 50s and 60s well, 50s is
still young, but 60s and 70s,yes, there were 70-year-old
hygienists still practicing theygot afraid, they got scared
because of COVID and they leftthe profession.
They definitely did.
Then you had assistants thatand not just assistants, but
everyone that was sitting home,like I just got laid off or
(09:34):
furloughed and I'm going to do aside hustle.
So then everybody started doinga side hustle.
Then you had businesses anddentistry and the temp agency is
like okay, we need to providestaffing.
Well, guess what?
Hygienists couldn't practiceduring COVID-19 because it had
to be emergency procedures.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Then you have.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
They still need the assistance, but they don't need
as many assistance.
So assistants and doctors stillhad their jobs and there was a
little gray area where peoplewere like still doing profis
because they still had to be inbusiness, but then after that a
lot of the RDHs that wereworking for someone and then got
laid off they becameentrepreneurs.
So they were like oh, I'mworking on my business, I'm
starting, you know, I'm starting, you know, my business.
(10:12):
Whatever they were doing, theystarted honing in on that.
Me too, I did the same thing,and that's when Brown Girl, rdh
pretty much took off, because Ihad the time to focus.
Then we go back in theworkforce.
Well, I'm a practice in RDH Nowmy business is booming, it's
taken off.
I'm doing something PPP loan,what's up.
So now I'm like I'm not goingback to the field.
(10:33):
So now we have a shortage ofpeople going back in.
One, they're scared, and two,they're, like I done, bossed up,
and now I'm doing what I'mdoing.
So now you have staffingcompanies being emerged, and
these staffing companies are,you know, they want a piece
right.
So the staffing companies arelike we're temping out.
So now doctors don't havehygienists, so now they're going
to the staffing agencies.
The staffing agencies are likewell, here's my fee, here's our
(10:56):
fee, but then you have to paythe RDH fee.
And if you ended up, if you endup hiring the RDH and the
dentist because dentists werethere too then you have to pay
another fee.
So now the people that arehiring, whether they're small
businesses or corporate offices.
They're like I know Ariel, theRDH over here that used to work
for me.
Let me call her up and see ifshe can just temp and then I'll
(11:17):
end up paying her more right,instead of paying this agency
and risking paying a non-competefee or getting sued because I
didn't hire somebody.
So now they're like I'll justreach out to the hygienist.
Speaker 4 (11:28):
So now the hygienists are like.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, I can just temp for myself.
If you're going to pay the tempagency $25 per hour and you're
going to pay me $28 an hour or$30 an hour, you can just pay me
$50 to $60.
And the offices are like, okay.
So now we have a transition towhere now all the hygienists are
(11:49):
tempting themselves.
They're not really goingthrough the agency.
Some still do, but now they'rejust tempting themselves.
So now the doctors are like,wow, the rates are, you know, 60
.
I know one girl that wasgetting $80 an hour.
The rates are $60 plus.
Well, I can't really afford thatbecause my fees can't afford it
.
But at the same time, if Idon't have a hygienist, I lose
my clients, which are thecustomers which are my bread and
butter.
So now I have to pay for theRDH to come in and clean the
(12:11):
teeth, because I don't want tobe cleaning teeth or diagnosing,
or, you know, I don't want tobe doing perio.
So then they bring thishygienist in that they know they
can't afford.
It's kind of like gas.
Like you know, gas is $5, butyou're like I'm just gonna put
half a tank in there.
So now I'd rather have a temphygienist come in one to two
days a week or one to two days amonth or however they do it,
versus having someone on payrollbecause I can't afford it.
(12:34):
So the shift happened becauseof combination of those things.
But I think where thetransition goes is like, hey,
you have a new grad and that newgrad wants that $50 to $60.
Erica, you have 25 years ofexperience, but you went through
the ADHP program.
So someone that went throughjust a regular two year dental
hygiene program or four yeardental hygiene program maybe
like you're not qualified,although you have 25 years of
(12:57):
experience, which I feelpersonally just my opinion, my
opinion doesn't matter in thissubject, but it's experience,
because some of these dentalhygiene schools and dental
schools are practicing onmannequins.
They're not practicing on lablive patients after COVID-19.
It's a mannequin.
When you're looking at it it'slike I read in a book how to do
open heart surgery.
But have you done it?
Do you have the experience?
(13:19):
I don't want.
I don't want you, you know youpracticing on me.
So there is a combination ofthings.
So everyone is kind of likedesperate a little bit and
everyone's trying to figure itout.
In the end I don't think we'reactually working together.
Kara and Erica, thank you guys.
So much for explaining it,because the way I read the post
immediately everyone's like no,no, no, dental assistants can't
be hygienists and blah blah.
(13:39):
But I did not realize.
It's two years training with adentist first.
Then you go through an 11-monthprogram at the University of
Alabama, which then you know ifthey're qualified they do it.
It's no different than a dentalhygienist going to school
during their two years andcoming out and practicing in
somebody's mouth and noteverybody.
You are who you are Eitheryou're strong clinically or
you're academically smart.
(14:00):
It's very rare that you havetwo of those traits.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Ariel, what's your take on it?
First of all, let me just saysuper interesting already I'm
like over here writing, writingnotes, like wait a minute.
So my take on it is I don't.
I honestly don't think it'sfair as a, as an RDH who had to
go through the program, who it'salmost like.
If you would say like pledgingright, like if you're gonna
pledge a sorority or fraternity,there's no way you're gonna let
somebody just be like.
If you would say like pledgingright, like if you're gonna
pledge a sorority or fraternity,there's no way you're gonna let
somebody just be like, well,you know, my, my mom or my dad
did it or something, so I don'thave to pledge at all or I don't
(14:33):
have to do anything about it.
Like you know you, youdefinitely should go through the
proper training, anything thatyou do.
Like you said, if you went to aopen heart surgery, you're
gonna want somebody who actuallyis, you know, went through the
proper training, learned fromyou know.
Another RDH, to be honest withyou, if, if I could just be
(14:54):
completely honest you knowdentists don't even clean as
well as dental hygienists.
So I don't see how you can justgo two years.
I think Kara said you go twoyears under a dentist and then
you get to be an RDH or whatever.
I just don't think that it'sfair.
If they're going to do that, Ithink it's only in the benefit
(15:14):
of the dentist.
I feel like the dentist justwants to save the money, but
it's not in the best interestfor the patients or actual
dental hygienists you're goingto go if you.
Erica said there's a shortage onboth sides, right?
So you have a shortage withRDHs and you also have a
(15:36):
shortage on DAs.
Well, if you're going to payDAs to become an RDH, a lot of
DAs want to be an RDH anyway.
They just don't want to do theschooling for it.
So you don't want to go throughwhat it is needed to be an RDH.
So if you can go through thisprogram, I feel like there's
going to be it's going to be asnowball effect.
(15:57):
There's going to be a huge, youknow there's going to be a huge
shortage of DAs after a while.
Then there's nobody that'sgoing to want to be a DA,
because RDHs aren't going to godown to what DAs get paid, you
know.
So who's the next line?
Are they going to starttraining the office managers to
become DAs?
Like, how is that going to work?
(16:19):
I just I don't agree with it.
If they are going to do it orif they're doing it already, I
think that they need to make itfair across the board.
I feel like they should takeoff.
We have so many stipulations,especially in Georgia, where
hygienists can't work anywhereelse.
We can't work in you know othersectors.
We can't work at an office for,you know hospitals, or we can't
(16:41):
work in you know other areas.
I feel like we should, theyshould open that up.
You know we can work for anaturopathic doctor, or we can
work, you know, in other sectors.
And then also, I think theyshould just allow us to have our
own spas or or or offices forjust dental cleanings.
You know, like, if you're goingto limit us and you're going to
(17:02):
take our jobs, then I feel likeyou should take off all the
stipulations that you have on us.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I was just want to know what was Ariel's background
.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
I'm a dental hygienist.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
How many years have you practiced?
Six years.
Okay, you're in the state ofGeorgia.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
A couple of points that you made.
Ariel, Thank you for that andthank you, Erica.
The ADHP program has beenaround for years and it is two
years training under a dentistprior to getting in the program.
Just correct me if I'm wrong.
Erica and Kara, that's correct.
Yeah, that's, that's correct,Okay, and after that, two years
practice practicing with adentist first.
Then it's an 11 month programat the university of Alabama and
(17:39):
they have to see 120 patientsin.
I forget how many hours, butthey have to do pro-feeds
cleaning.
So in my I'm understanding itis it's a fast track dental
hygiene program.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Make no mistake about it, the same professors that
are up at UAB teaching dentalschool and there are other
places teaching hygiene at thecolleges are the same professors
that are in this Alabama DentalHygiene Program.
Those are the same professors.
They do not sugarcoat anythingfor you, they do not babysit you
(18:12):
, they do not.
Their job is to give you thematerial, teach you the material
, and your job is to learn thematerial and to take the test so
that you be able to be readyfor your boards.
Your job, in the office, underyour doctor, that's where you do
your training.
So now I know there's amisconception about all of this,
(18:33):
because people will say well,you know how are they training
and who are they.
They're training on livepatients.
Car has been through since me.
It's been a long time sinceI've been through the program,
but CAR correct me if I'm wrongisn't it like 120 patients that
you have to see?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, yeah, it's a total of 120.
And then too, I did want toclarify, martell, during that
11-month period you are workingfull time.
What it is is, in those 11months, every one weekend out of
the month, you're going down toUAB taking those classes over
the week.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Okay, so the 11 months of your two years?
Is it 11 months?
No, okay, so it is two yearsand then 11 months out, right?
Two years and then 11 months,yes, okay.
And then, Justin, I'll let youhave the floor here and give
your take on everything that'shappening.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
My name is Justin Oliver.
I'm a practicing dentalhygienist.
I've been working in the dentalfield for 14 years now.
I have a bachelor's of sciencedegree in dental hygiene and a
master's of arts degree ineducation.
I've had the opportunity toteach both in the technical
college community or technicalcollege system in South Carolina
and also the university systemhere in Georgia In South
(19:43):
Carolina at Orie Georgetown Tech.
I was an associate professor inthe dental hygiene program and
at Georgia State PerimeterCollege I was the second year
clinic coordinator, working veryclosely with students, taking
them from their first yearclinical courses all the way to
graduating, so seeing theirfirst perio patient and things
like that, preparing them forboards.
I think what my concern is isthat you know we have to also
(20:07):
remember the didactic and theclinical skills that are offered
to the student within aneducational program.
I do not believe that thedentist that is working in a
private office or any othersetting is able to offer the
student Hygiene.
Educators are required by theuniversity and or the community
(20:29):
college system to take multiplecourses in methodology that a
regular dentist is not able toor is not required to take.
I do not believe that a dentistworking a nine to five has the
time to clinically educate astudent.
We have been clinicallyeducating students since 1913.
I don't believe there's a needto reinvent the wheel.
(20:53):
I think that more focus shouldbe placed on eliminating
barriers for students to becomedental hygienists, and what I
mean by that is their ability toapply for the program, their
ability to and or the dentalhygiene programs being more
suitable for students ofdifferent backgrounds.
(21:13):
I like to your point.
It's very common, commonlyknown, that if you are a
pregnant lady or if you havesome kind of whatever socio I
don't know whatever issue thatyou might have or situation that
you might be in, that dentalhygiene school won't be the best
fit for you.
I think that more, more, moreenergy should be focused on
(21:35):
creating spaces for students toparticipate fully in the program
.
I don't believe that teaching a, an assistant, how to scale
teeth or or how to scale orpolish or anything like that,
without a dental hygienist thatis qualified to teach and I'm
(21:58):
not just talking about dentalhygienists who work in the field
If you do not have themethodologies or courses in that
, then you're not qualified toteach anyone to do anything.
That's just how I personallyfeel and I just disagree with it
.
I think that, and I do respectthe dental hygiene program as
they have it in Alabama.
(22:20):
I understand that it meets theneeds of their community.
I just feel like we are pastthat in history.
We're past the perspectiveportion of dental of, I guess of
dental history.
I think that no otherprofession will allow this, and
(22:41):
I heard a comment about studentsworking on mannequins.
I do believe that dentistry isone of the few professions that
still require a live patient forboards.
So that is something that evenin the dental hygiene and dental
education, I guess, communitywe have been talking about that
(23:01):
for years.
Why do we require our studentsto bring in a live patient while
nurses don't typically have todo that?
So I think there's a lot ofthings that the dental community
should focus on when it comesdown to preparing students,
making it easier or moreaccessible for students to apply
to the program than justallowing a dental assistant.
(23:24):
That is that we can't reallyverify their standards or their
quality of education just topractice dental hygiene.
We have to remember thatteachers educators are required
by CODA and are required by theuniversity or community college
to participate in methodologycourses.
When you talk about programs oryou talk about dental hygiene
(23:45):
education, all of what is taughtin dental hygiene education has
to be presented to CODA, youknow, so that they know that the
standards are being met.
You know if you're allowingstudents to be taught by
professionals that are noteducators then, how do you
verify the quality of theireducation?
There's no way to do that Now.
(24:05):
Didactic education and clinicaleducation are two different
realms in dental hygiene, twodifferent realms in dental
hygiene education, if that makesany sense.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
You know so.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
I respect that students are able to go to the
university to learn didacticskills, but that doesn't
necessarily prepare you in aclinical setting.
So clinical educators have theability to link what is taught
in didactic into the clinic, andif those professionals are not
present in clinical settings,there's no link.
(24:39):
There is no deep understandingof perio, there is no deep
understanding of any type ofclinical skills.
What you're learning is what isimportant for the dentist that
you're working for.
That could be totally differentthan another dentist that you
could possibly be working for inthe future.
(24:59):
That's what my concern is.
I feel like, as a person thathas taught dental hygiene for
multiple years, there is no wayto verify or validate a person's
experience or their clinicalknowledge if it's not being
given, if the education is notbeing given by a professional
(25:21):
that is qualified to teach them.
That's how I personally feel,if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Okay, thank you for that, Kara.
I wanted to add something tothat.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah, I just had a question if he was referring to
them not being taught by, Iguess, just directly from a
hygiene instructor, becausethey're definitely taught by
periodontists.
So I guess I'm confused about,I guess I just would like for
you to clarify what is it thatyou feel like the students are
(25:52):
missing?
Speaker 5 (25:52):
exactly so periodontology in those courses
the dentist is typically beingtaught how to recognize and
diagnose perio, which is a bigthing that we do as hygienists.
We are able to because of ourclinical skills to do that.
But the action of providingnon-surgical periodontal therapy
(26:14):
that portion that a hygienistdoes is not always put to the
most, I guess, is not alwaystaught to the highest standard.
The doctor is a doctor.
Their job is to diagnose andI'm not saying that the
periodontist does not treatbecause they do treat.
The periodontist does not treatbecause they do treat.
(26:36):
But the act of doing orperforming non-surgical
procedures on patients, theperiodontist is not going to
provide the same quality ofeducation that a hygiene
educator that has training andmethodology and degrees in that.
So a lot of hygiene educatorsnot only have their degree in
clinical hygiene but they havesomething else that gives them
(26:56):
the ability or trains them inteaching.
So I don't feel like it's thesame.
I do respect the periodontist,the periodontist, I do respect
what they do.
It's just not.
It's not the same.
We're like the first line ofdefense to their.
You know, as you probablyalready know, doing this for as
long as you have.
You know, we see the patientsfirst, and then, if what we do
(27:19):
does not work, we refer them tothe specialist.
So that's what I personallyfeel.
I just think it's thecoursework is geared for a
different professional.
That's my personal opinion.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
So wait a minute.
I wanted to add to that.
This is Erica speaking, so I'mjust trying to get some clarity
(27:54):
here.
Can everyone hear me?
I understand what you're saying, that the very people that we
refer to as far as the periowith the specialists, you're
saying that they're notqualified to teach us, even
though we're not qualified to dotheir job.
Am I hearing that correctly?
Speaker 5 (28:09):
I think that what I'm saying is that the
methodologies that are used inthe perio courses that are
geared toward dentists do notmeet the standards of what a
hygienist does professionally ona day-to-day basis.
I think that those courses aregeared to diagnosing perio and I
think that what is done inhygiene school is geared to the
(28:33):
hygienist.
It is geared to the first lineof defense of perio.
It's not the same To me.
I understand what you're saying, but I think when you look at
it from a methodology standpointit's almost, I hate to say,
like comparing apples to oranges.
But and I'm not trying tooverstep the paradigm but we're
not doctors, so the courses arenot going to be geared toward
(28:56):
what a doctor is and how he dothings, not from the hygiene
standpoint of it.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
But this program has been around for years and they
have tweaked the program leftand right.
Trust me when I tell you theprogram is geared towards the
hygienist.
This is not just a paradigm iscoming in teaching.
You know what he does from hisstandpoint.
It is taught from thestandpoint of a very trained
hygienist.
The hygienists that are therethat also help to train do have
(29:46):
master degrees.
So they, you know, they arequalified to teach because they
can teach on a college level.
So I think there's a lot ofmisconception and I challenge
everyone to dig a little bitdeeper to see what the program
is about.
Now I don't know how SouthCarolina is going to set their
program up.
I can't, you know, I can'tspeak on that in their terms.
(30:08):
However, I do, you know, kindof get and understand the fears
that everyone have with aprogram like this coming out.
I get it, I totally get it.
But in Alabama, if we're, ifwe're speaking of, you know,
this is the Browns Girls RDHwhen you're looking at the state
of Alabama, there's a lot of usthat are brown skin that would
(30:31):
have never had the opportunityto become a hygienist.
Why?
Because a lot of schools wouldnot accept us, and I'm talking
about my 25 years of experience.
Back then you was not going toWallace State because Wallace
State was not going to let youcome through.
Do you understand what I'msaying?
So for us, for us as brown RDHs, this was the only opportunity
(30:55):
that we had.
It was the only opportunitythat we had and a lot of us came
through under under doctorsthat was that looked like us
because they knew.
They knew we were not gettingthese same opportunities to be
able to step into these collegesand compete with their
counterparts.
They knew this.
(31:16):
So this program, which theycould not deny you out of the
program, if you turned yourpaperwork in and you met all of
the qualifications, they had tolet you in.
Now everything else was on you,because they don't sugarcoat
you on that Either you got thematerial and you pass it and you
will go to the class, and I'mjust using this, for example,
(31:37):
Maybe by the time you startthere's 300 people in the class.
By the time you finish, itmight be 75 people in the class
that finish, Because they dropyou out like flies every week If
your test grades are not acertain amount.
And they know from here on out,if you get 100 from here on out
out, you still not going topass.
(31:57):
So they drop you.
They don't sugarcoat it for you, they're not walking you
through this, but this programwas the only program us Blacks
had because we could not get inany other way.
So when y'all was speaking andjudging Alabama's program, I
can't speak for South Carolina.
(32:18):
And now times have changed.
Now we do have opportunities togo to the schools and compete
and everything else, but forthis program we did not.
So this program was our breadand butter and all we had for
those that did want to go tohygiene school.
This was it for us.
(32:40):
So you know, for some of us wetake it a little personal,
because y'all don't understandthe aspect of the walk.
We had to walk to get to thispoint.
And I know y'all are sayingwell, you know, what about this?
What about?
Basically, the only thing thatthey have done was taken out all
of the prereqs and you getstraight to doing hygiene.
This is what they have done andyes, it's a fast track, but you
(33:02):
got to be able to keep up oryou're dropped.
They don't care about you.
To pay your money?
They don't.
They don't care about any ofthat.
When I tell you they do notsugarcoat it.
You get the material or youdon't.
Now, when it comes to hands-on,you could be the best hygienist
or you could be the worsthygienist.
It's all going to depend on whoyou are morally and what you
(33:25):
want to bring to the table andwho you are as a hygienist.
So now we're going to comparethis.
We also have the school here,so now we're going to compare
this.
We also have the school here.
Wallace State been around foryears, but at sometimes they
they were not you're going toplot, but they don't mean that
you was going to get your brownself into that school, right.
So now you compare the studentsthat come from this program
(33:53):
compared to and I've been doingthis for 25 years, so I've been
doing a lot of comparing andthere are good and bad
hygienists.
No matter where you go, I don'tcare what education you have, I
don't care what degree you have.
This comes down to hands on andyour knowledge.
That's what all of this boilsdown to.
(34:26):
And in the state of Alabama,let me tell you, after 25 years
and going to other states, justlooking around and seeing
different things, we have always, as you get, top pet.
I'm over here.
I'm the best hygienist.
I jump through all the hoops.
I go up and beyond.
This has always been the fight,and over here I'm just speaking
from this standpoint becausethis is the standpoint that I'm
in and this is what I know.
With hygiene, we always andCara knows this herself we have
(34:49):
to be way better than ourcounterparts.
So when you're talking aboutjudging us from the standpoint
of the knowledge and thehands-on, I challenge y'all, any
day of the week, if y'all wannacome to Madison, Alabama, Aspen
, Dental, come.
I will welcome you with openarms and let you see what this
(35:10):
is all about.
I promise you you will changeyour mind on some of these
aspects of the way that youthink, but I just wanted to step
in and let you see what this isall about.
I promise you you will changeyour mind on some of these
aspects of the way that youthink, but I just wanted to step
in and let y'all know like, hey, this has been a platform for
many of us that are brown skin.
So you know, let's not knock ittoo much here again.
Times have changed.
Doors are now opening left andright.
(35:31):
You know some of this is not achallenge anymore.
So I get it.
But you know, for some of us.
This was our only way, so I'mgonna yield that and let y'all
head the floor.
Thank, y'all.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
May I make a few comments to that?
I'm sorry if I'm interruptinganyone.
Yes, absolutely.
Well, I would like to sayspeaking on racial disparities
in dentistry is a very in-depthconversation and I do respect
that the Perseverance programhas allotted a lot of brown
people, especially black women,you know, some kind of foot into
(36:05):
this profession.
We also have to talk about theladies that were the pioneers
for going to programs.
That were the pioneers forgoing to programs.
So I graduated from the MedicalCollege of Georgia, which was
the first dental program anddental hygiene program in the
state of Georgia.
If you meet ladies thatgraduated in the 70s and the 80s
, they were Black ladies.
(36:25):
They would talk to you.
They would speak of how whitedentists and dental hygienists
did not want to work with them.
So it's not a one-sidedconversation.
Honestly there are racialdisparities between both of the
communities.
But I don't feel as if I sayall that and say I just don't
(36:47):
feel that a person, that aprofessional, a dentist, that
does not have the skill set inclinical methodology has the
ability to provide a studentwith the same quality of
clinical education that ahygiene professor is able to.
(37:07):
I just don't feel that way.
I feel as if me, with myexperience with dentists and I'm
not saying all dentists are thesame, but what I have seen, or
what I've grown to know, is thatthe dentist is very concerned
about their bottom line andwhatever that looks like is
whatever that looks like, andthat sometimes does not.
And I'm not saying all dentistsare like that, but I'm just
(37:29):
saying that that sometimes doesnot equate to a really healthy,
solid clinical educationalexperience.
When someone says to you adentist, that every five
millimeter pocket is SRP andthey're unable to look at x-rays
from a dental hygienistperspective and gauge the
(37:50):
clinical attachment level aloneperspective and gauge the
clinical attachment level a lotthey're unable to gauge.
You know even calculus in anx-ray.
Or now that the 4346 code isthis big thing, you know I've
seen dentists you know this ismy personal experience say, oh,
this patient, you know we didSRP last year on this patient.
It didn't work.
Now we're going to do a 4346 tokind of get them back, things
(38:12):
like that.
You see how some dentists arevery concerned with their bottom
line and dental hygieneeducators tend to take the cost
of what it is out of that and goright into what needs to happen
or the diagnosis or what needsto happen for the patient.
(38:34):
And I also want to talk aboutthe history of dental hygiene
education.
So we're not just talking about, you know, a dentist clinically
training someone.
We're talking about how we havehistorically treated patients,
what it is to be a dentalhygiene provider, healthcare
provider, that is.
Dental hygiene and dentistryare two separate fields that we
(38:56):
might work hand in hand together.
We're not the same.
In states like in Californiayou'll see a dental hygiene
board that is separate fromdentistry.
So those soft skills that arealso taught clinically by a
hygiene educator, that can onlyreally be given to you by a
hygiene educator that only canget that, can only really be
given to you by a hygienistthat's been doing this and that
(39:18):
has those, those that trainingand methodology the dentist
doesn't have.
That so it's, it's more thanjust clinically seeing the
patient.
It's a, it's a legacy ofeducation, it's a legacy of what
we do that is not being offeredto students that are being
taught hand-in-hand,side-by-side by a dentist that
(39:40):
is actually their employer.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Thank you so much for that.
I love the conversations, Ilove how this is going, I love
the outlooks of everything.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
I did want to clarify , like with the student while
they are in that program, a lotof times a lot of offices will
pair that hygiene student with ahygiene mentor.
I know, especially if you'regoing and you're working for a
corporate office, they usuallyalways are going to pair you
with a hygiene mentor.
So not only do you have thatdentist instructing you, a lot
(40:11):
of times you have your seasonedhygienist in the office that are
also used as a support and anaid as well.
I did want to just kind ofclarify that.
But I totally get what you'resaying, justin, with being, you
know, strictly a hygieneeducator, how that would be
maybe more effective, you know,than going this route.
But I just didn't want you guysto think that, oh, they're just
(40:32):
out there willy-nilly with thedentist.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Let me just say this we on here are like well, I
think, and I think, and I thinkand I don't know, unless you
actually studied this program,we really can't.
We can have an opinion all daylong, but it's not a fact, it's
a feeling, so go ahead.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
Yeah, I just wanted to tell you guys, you know, like
, as dental hygienists, we'renot judging you, don't take it.
Don't take it personal.
We're not judging the program.
We understand the things thatyou guys had to go through to go
through the program and whatnot.
But I know dental hygienistswho were the only Black person
(41:09):
in their program as well andthey pushed through regardless.
Only black person in theirprogram as well and they push
through regardless.
You know, it's just, Iunderstand back then that's all
you had.
But we're here now and there'sI.
There was only actually onewhite girl in my program so she
was actually the minority of theclass and overall dental
hygienists, we only make upblack dental hygienists we only
(41:30):
make up three percent.
So you know, we're every dentaland we're going to dental
hygiene school, we're goingthrough the full program,
through the full process.
You know you can't take, we'rejust saying you know, I think
we're a bit protective over our,our, let you know, rdh over
(41:51):
over our, because we did gothrough the process.
There's a lot of us that wentthrough.
I was lucky to have a programwhere my instructor looked like
me and I understand, you know.
But there's, I have friends, Ihave other hygienists who, like
I said, they were the only blackor the only male.
(42:11):
You know what I'm saying.
It's not just about color, youknow, it's there's.
You know where you, where.
They were the only one and theystill push through the full
program.
I just don't personally feellike you can learn what we know
in a matter of 11 months justgoing on the weekends.
This wasn't a weekend thing forus, this was a lifestyle.
Some of us had to quit our jobs.
(42:32):
Some of us had to live withfamily members.
Some of us had to live withfamily members.
Some of us had to, you know, gothrough the trenches to get
where we are.
I know I cried every single daywhen I was in dental hygiene
school and it was just a lot.
So you know it's just like.
I think that for hygienists, youknow it's like just because you
(42:54):
took a couple classes, that orwent through 120 patients or
whatever, it doesn't make you adental hygienist.
Like you didn't go through theprogram.
So it's just like a wife.
You know you have a girlfriendand a wife.
You know that that wife isgoing to be like you can't do
what I do or say what I say,because I'm that just because
(43:16):
you have a dentist, if you havea general dentist right, and you
have a dentist that went to aspecialty, you know that general
dentist is is going to refer tothat specialty because they are
.
They did not go througheverything that that specialty
dentist went through, whetherit's endo, whatever it is,
(43:38):
whether it's perio.
So that's all I wanted to say.
We're just quite protectiveover our profession and I think
that we went through a lot toget through our program as well,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
So what I want to add here is that everyone has a
unique perspective on how theysee everything that's going on
here and everyone is going tolook at it by default from an
educator standpoint, from RDHthat went through the ADHP
program, from a clinical dentalhygienist perspective.
You're going to see it fromthere and the opportunity that
(44:13):
we have on this podcast is toshare everyone's perspective.
Who we don't have you know onhere.
We can say you know the dentistyou know don't want to pay, or
you know it's not our faultbecause the reimbursements are
low.
My job as founder of Brown GirlRDH, which is a nonprofit,
which we are here for the people, my job is to understand and to
(44:33):
connect the dots.
How do we serve our people,right?
So when we're talking aboutaccess to care, when we're
talking about who gets seen what, when we talk about not having
enough hygienists right, nothaving enough hygienists to work
in these offices to see thesepatients, we're talking about an
epidemic.
We're talking about an oralhealth crisis.
We're talking about an epidemic.
(45:01):
We're talking about an oralhealth crisis.
We're talking about, in the USSenate, discussing the dental
hygiene workforce, the dentalworkforce, barriers on access to
care, like we keep forgettingabout that big aspect when we're
talking about.
You know, this is how I feel.
This is what school I went toand this is the disparities that
we went through indiscrimination.
But let's not forget about thepeople.
So what's the solution?
Creating this program in SouthCarolina, adapting the program
that Alabama has?
It's just putting a band-aid onthe issue we need to tackle.
(45:24):
Justin said earlier, we need totackle the issue.
This might not be the answer.
Let's just fast track or let'sjust create more programs.
That has been working inAlabama in so much respect to
the program that's there and allthe hygienists that went
through it.
But that's not the issue.
The issue is really trying tofigure out why we have such a
shortage and let's tackle theshortage.
(45:45):
So that means not having thosebarriers for, you know,
minorities or people from, youknow, disadvantaged backgrounds
to get into the programs.
You know taking the red tape outof those programs or creating
programs ourselves within ourcommunities that will help
pipeline students from thisinner city school here in North
Carolina to where, okay, nowthis high school student can go
(46:08):
from high school to dentalassisting, to working in a
practice, getting clinicalexperience, to applying to
dental hygiene school, to comingback to the dental practice, to
working in it, to getting theirstudent loans paid off, to
going back to dental school, tocome back.
We're talking about an actualpipeline and during the program
(46:29):
of this pipeline, if a highschool student ends up getting
pregnant or they end up losing,you know, money, they can't work
through the program and thedental hygiene program and now,
for some reason, they don't havemoney to pay their rent.
So they have to choose betweenpaying my rent, taking care of
my child, or going through thisprogram where they can't work.
Well, we're talking abouthaving a support system and a
program in place to where, hey,we're covering your housing
(46:51):
while you're in this program andall you have to do is get
through school.
I'm not talking about takingout student loans to get through
a program.
I'm talking about providingsupport, providing a pipeline
and during the program, if thisindividual ends up, you know,
having a child like, we're hereto support that student through
that transition.
A lot of people have to drop outbecause, you know, they end up.
(47:13):
Oh, I ended up getting pregnant, or I ended up losing my job,
or my mom, you know, you knowher mortgage or whatever.
It is Like we have differentissues.
I remember when I was in dentalhygiene school, everybody was
freaking out because they had tostudy for boards.
My daughter had a fever.
She was two years old.
She had the flu and a fever andI had to worry about her.
And I have this girl heretalking about how she got to
(47:34):
wash the dishes.
So it's just like we havedifferent issues.
We have different stressorsthat we have to tackle
systemically in traditionallyand generationally that we have
to tackle.
So we need to find a solutionto how do we get this high
school student that have wouldnever had the opportunity to get
to becoming a doctor or dentalhygienist, how do we get them
(47:55):
from where they are to the end?
This is one of the things thatBrown Girl RDH is working on.
So we do have a program and itis the Hygiene High School
Dental Hygiene Program and we'regetting into these schools and
we're mentoring these studentsand we're helping them through
the pipeline of hey, you'regoing to go to dental assistant
school.
Once you're done with dentalassistant school, you will
(48:16):
practice and get hired in one ofthese dental offices that Brown
Guard EDH is affiliated with.
Once you're through thatprogram.
You will then apply.
We will help you apply fordental hygiene school.
Whether the dental hygieneschool be in Alabama, texas,
florida, it doesn't matter.
We will help you apply for itand then we will give you the
resources and have bays and havedental hygiene homes to where
you can live.
(48:36):
The most expensive thing indental hygiene school and I see
it with these students withdollar ships when they're asking
is their tuition.
Why aren't we funding thesestudents?
People have $78,000 of tuitionfor a two-year dental hygiene
program for a for-profit schooland they get in there.
We're not the most financiallyaware.
You know I can't take out allthese student loans and think
(48:58):
I'm going to get through theprogram and not have a game plan
.
I just want to get in, like,let me get in and I'll figure it
out later.
So students get in theseprograms and then they can't
register for courses becausethey have a balance and they
can't pay for their tuition andthe for-profit schools.
They will say no, you cannotregister.
So if I'm a dental hygienestudent going into my second
year or my second or thirdsemester and I have a balance
(49:20):
and I can't pay for it, what amI gonna do?
I'm gonna default to droppingout.
Trying to do a GoFundMe, like, Isee all of the scholarship
applications come in time andtime again and it's like they
get in but it's just like we'rehurrying up to let them in, to
check the box, right, and thenthey, they, they drop out, they
fail, they don't make it through.
That's not helping the accessto care, because we know we're
(49:43):
the professionals that are goingto go back to the federally
qualified health centers andwe're going to work and we're
going to go back in ourcommunity and we're going to
take those lower wages.
That's where our heart is.
Pretty much Most people thatare missing teeth are poor.
Like that's the indication thatthey are poor.
Try to get a job.
With a missing tooth or missingteeth, you're not going to get
a job.
How do you live?
Why is this?
Because dentistry is soexpensive, right?
(50:04):
Why is dentistry so expensive?
It has nothing to do with theRDH, it has nothing to do with
the schools, with inflation,okay, let's face it.
Now people are going overseasto get dental care.
A root canal in the US is$1,200.
Up you go to India, it's $250.
So people can't even afforddental care.
This issue is bigger than usright.
This is an economic issue andwe need to stop the bleeding,
(50:25):
because fast tracking or tryingto create more dental assistants
, that's not the solution.
It is finding a way to getMartel from being a pregnant
high school student to, you know, a dental hygienist, to a
doctor.
It's how do we pipeline thesestudents?
And then guess where I go Todental practices, to where you
know we do accept Medicaid, wedo have that sliding fee scale,
(50:47):
we do employ brown skin people,we do give the opportunities.
It's no secret that when youlook at some dental practices,
you just see all white faces.
If you don't think that'sstrategic, it really is, because
some of these doctors that haveprivate practice and I'm not
talking about all of them theywant a certain look for their
hygienist.
So you're already tapping out.
(51:08):
So I understand all differentaspects in it.
For me, it's like what is thesolution?
How do we help the people?
How do we serve our people?
How do we get in these othercommunities?
This is pretty much a call toaction.
What can we start doing toparticipate, to help the issue?
The issue is not creating moredental hygienists.
The issue is serving the peoplewho have the needs, serving the
(51:29):
people who are flying overseasto get down treatment, who are
in the hospitals and the ERsbecause they have a toothache,
who have cardiovascular diseaseor who have arthritis because
they have untreated periodontalconditions.
That's what we should befocusing on and I just feel like
everyone has their.
We should do this, we shouldn'tbe doing this, but we're really
just putting a bandaid.
It's very sad because we'rejust putting a bandaid on the
(51:51):
issue, but if we stop thebleeding, get into these schools
or these neighborhoods or theserural communities and start
creating providers andpipelining them.
I don't know if you guys knowthis, but only one third of
dentists even accept Medicaid.
Some of them are droppingregular insurance because
they're like, hey, regularinsurance is not paying what we
need to.
I can't afford to open mybusiness.
I can't afford a hygienist.
(52:11):
Try paying a Medicaid.
Reimbursement for a prophy is$26.
Try paying your hygienist $60an hour.
It's not going to work.
That's not.
That doesn't make businesssense.
Walmart is a billion dollarcompany, the most powerful
company in the world, the mostpowerful, one of the most
powerful companies in the world,and they just closed down 51
dental clinics because it wasn'tprofitable.
(52:32):
If Walmart shutting down 51dental clinics, what do we
really think is going to happento our profession as a whole?
My solution is hey, let's go towhere the people are, let's go
to where you know, let's stopthe bleeding, let's get into
these schools, let's create moreproviders, however we can
create it, but I'm just throwingmore therapists or dental
hygienists out there andassistants.
(52:53):
I don't think.
I don't think that's the answer.
You need people who care aboutpeople and I think that's what
we should be focusing on, and alot of you said that in so many
ways.
But this is not about us.
This is not about the dentistnot wanting to pay.
This is about where ourprofession is going and how can
we help the people.
If the senate says there's aworkforce shortage and a crisis
(53:15):
and we need to be looking atthat like this is not just in
our city, this is globally.
So it's very sad to see and um,everything, but it's just like
all right, how do we serve ourpeople?
If you're, if you guys areinterested, anyone listening,
interested in learning moreabout our hygiene high school
pipeline and how you can supportand help with our program, like
it is an effect and that is ourmission, and with any closing
(53:38):
words, hey guys.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
yeah, you can find me .
You can go on my website,arielvrdhcom.
I'm a children's book authorand I love things like this.
Thank you for having me on here.
My handles are at arielvrdh.
Arielvdh, that's the handle.
Yeah, definitely, and myclosing statement is just thank
(53:59):
you, martel.
And that's what I was talkingabout, about allowing you know.
If they're going to do that,then opening up opportunities
for hygienists, rdhs, to work indifferent sectors and helping
people in hospitals,naturopathic offices and things
like that.
So exactly what I'm talkingabout.
Thank you, martel.
Speaker 2 (54:18):
I was just going to close with thank you again for
hosting this.
I do think that we got a lot ofinsight today on.
You know both sides.
But, I just want to.
I just want to leave this foreverybody.
It doesn't matter how.
To me, it doesn't matter howyou came into this field.
At the end of the day, weshould support each other
regardless.
I do believe everyone's heartis in the right place.
(54:39):
Everybody is, you know, seekingto serve patients, seeking to
do the right things by patientsas well, and also students, our
future hygiene students.
So I just wanted to leave withthat.
Speaker 3 (54:52):
First off, I want to say thank you for having me.
I appreciate it and just to addon, this is, at the end of the
day, it is what you were saying.
It is about the people that weserve, it's about the public and
it's about giving them the bestcare possible.
And at the end of the day, youknow, I don't know what's going
to happen.
I don't know as far as what'sgoing on in South Carolina.
(55:14):
In the program, a lot of timesyou know, whether we like it or
not, some things happen and somethings changes.
I guess the input would be howcan we make things better as a
whole?
This platform exists for areason and we have to think of
it in the sense of you know, howcan we be better?
How can we be better,regardless of the background?
Speaker 5 (55:55):
How can we be better as RDH and how can we better
does not indicate youreducational level or standard,
and always try your best tocreate those links that you
learn in school to betterprovide service to your patients
.
You know.
Let them know that you have aneducational experience.
A lot of times, patients don'tsee us as educated.
(56:18):
You know, always, reiteratewhere you came from.
You know the qualificationsthat you have and why you are
the best professional to providethe services that you provide.
Those are my ending statements.
Thank y'all.
Speaker 1 (56:33):
This has been a great , inspirational and full of a
lot of information for me.
I know for sure If you want tolearn more about the High School
to Hygiene program, you canreach out to Brown Girl RDH.
Info at browngirlrdhorg.
You can find us at Brown GirlRDH on all social media
platforms or you can email us ifyou wanted to learn more or be
involved.
Thank you, guys.
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