Legal Tips for Small Business Owners and Entrepreneurs | #9 - From Crisis To Justice

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi I'm Parag Amin.
Welcome to my podcast.
From crisis to justice.
As a lawyer and entrepreneur, I'mpassionate about helping small business
owners successfully navigate situationsthat can kill a business.
As a kid, I watched my dad's dreamsof being an entrepreneur destroyed
by an unethical businessman, and I don'twant that to happen to you or your family.

(00:22):
That's why I started my law firm.
I want to protect and defend businessowners and their legacies from crisis.
Welcome to.
From crisis to justice.
Welcome back, everyone.
To the From Crisis to Justice podcast.
I'm your host, Parag mean.

(00:43):
And I'm joined by special guestRJ drilling.
He is a criminal defense lawyerand a former
senior prosecutor for Los Angeles County.
He has handled multiple high
profile cases involving murder, fraud,conspiracy and kidnaping.
He's helped everyone from Hollywood actorsto CEOs

(01:07):
and throughout his career, he's
focused exclusively on criminal law.
So RJ,thank you so much for joining today.
Yeah, thank you for having me on.I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Yeah, absolutely.
So can you tell us a little bitabout why you chose criminal law
as your path to pursue?
Yeah.
It's, so I think I wrote my well, I knowI wrote my law school entrance exam.

(01:32):
There was a big grocerystrike here in Southern California
in like 2003 when I was working at Vons.
And I rememberI wrote my entrance exam about wanting to
be a get into employment law.
And something happened.
I gone to law school.
I was in a trial advocacyclass, and, there was an opening
for a clerkat the DA's office in Torrance.

(01:55):
And I figured, hey, you know, maybeI'll go do an interview and check it out.
And, I rememberI walked into the office and it was,
you know, it was.
It was a little dingy.
There were 2 or 3 people to an office,and I remember,
you know, those thoseinspirational posters you see sometimes
that say, like, you know, have, like,
an eagle flying over the mountainsand says courage.

(02:17):
Like, clearly something someone hadjust kind of taken out of their garage
and thrown up on the walls.
But there was a kind of,
you know, I just kind of fell in lovewith it when I got there.
And not just the the DA's office itself.
But then you go to court
and, you know, you're sitting thereas a clerk with the Da, and you could tell
they have a decent relationshipwith the public defender,

(02:40):
a decent relationship with the job judge,and everyone's kind of getting along.
And that aspect of itreally appealed to me.
And it was it was very I had worked at areally a really great employment firm
that previous that previoussummer and that summer.
But it was just the really informal
aspect of the work and criminal law,the opportunity to be in court.
I mean, for my job now, I'm in courtjust about every day,

(03:03):
the opportunity to be in court,
the informal nature of it.
And, you know,you get some high consequence cases,
you know, you got some people who call youwhose life is on the line
and in sometimes and sometimes
that's the hardest part of it,and sometimes that's the best part of it.
You know, you have you have a very closerelationship with your client.
You have a very, it's a very consequentialarea of law with very little pretense.

(03:27):
You know, the discovery process is
you talk that prosecutor,do you have my discovery?
You know, it's not a lot ofinterrogatories and things like that.
Very kind of informal and fast paced.
And so,
you know, when
I, when I clerk there at the DA's office,I knew that's what I wanted to do.
And I was fortunate enough to,when I graduated to get a job there,
I was there about 15 years,and I left about a year and a half ago

(03:49):
to start my ownprivate criminal defense practice.
So I've been very fortunate.
And I think many of usI think that's the sense with you two.
Frog, you seem to have landed an areathat you really enjoy.
I feel very fortunate to have land
in an area of lawthat I really, genuinely enjoy.
That's amazing.
I love that. So.
So at what point did you decide that
you were going to go from governmentprosecutor

(04:11):
to private criminal defense lawyerwith your own firm?
Was there a specific moment in timethat you decided that and what was that?
You know, I had always kind of kickedaround the idea of,
having my own practice.
I really like the idea of being my ownboss.
I really like the idea of kind of buildingsomething up, from the ground up

(04:31):
and, you know,and I said this a moment ago.
You know,
everyone kind of gets alongwhen you're in criminal law.
And I had a lot of respect for a lot of,private
criminal defense attorneys that seemedto really have a good practice going.
And I talked to them,and they seemed to enjoy it.
And I just kind of reached for my career.
I was fortunate to do a lot of kind of,

(04:54):
consequential work as a prosecutor.
I handled some high profile cases,
but I just kind of felt like it was timefor me to try something new.
You know, just kind of how
I knew when I walked into the DA's officethat that was what I wanted to do.
About two years ago, I just kind of knewit was time for a change.
And there's a definitely an adjustmentperiod for having been in law enforcement
for so long.

(05:15):
Now, going and working on the otherside, you know, I remember,
oh, gosh, the firstmonth, I think the first time I ever met,
he had he worked at some oil refinery
in the South Bay, and,
he had called in sick one day to work,but the day he had called in sick.
The FBI had raided their entire officeand arrested everyone. So.

(05:39):
But for the fact he had called in sick.
He probably would've been in custody.
So he came in for an interview.
This is, I think, one of the first onesI had, people had talked to.
He was said, he says, how are you doing?
And I said, good.
And then my natural response is to say,when someone asks you how you're doing.
How are you doing?
And he looks at me like,how the hell do you think I'm doing?

(05:59):
So it's definitely bit of an adjustment.Right.
I've learned to take the how are you doingout of my initial introduction.
And, it is a little bit of an adjustment.
Took about a couple months.
Getting used to be on the other sideof things, but, at the end of the day,
the legal work is very similarto what I did.
You kind of kind of pick that upvery quickly.
And, you know, it's been really rewarding.

(06:20):
Like I said, I've been fortunateto have had two jobs I loved in my life,
and I'm really enjoying what I'm doingnow. That's awesome.
What kind of things have you had tonavigate as a first time business owner?
Well, you. Know how it goes.
The nice thing with a government job,you had a steady paycheck,
and you basically have to commita high level felony
to get fired from your job,so it's very secure.

(06:41):
There's many parts of itthat I really liked,
but the steady paycheck is very nice,
and you kind of take it for grantedwhen you go out on your own.
And as you know,when you're building a practice,
especially the first year or so,the income just goes up
and it goes down,it goes up and it goes down.
And that can be a little bit,
you know, anxietyprovoking, for lack of a better term.

(07:03):
And for me, part of what getting usedto this particular
aspect ofis getting used to the ups and downs,
you know, and learningthat it's a part of the process.
And, you know, one of the most encouraging
phone calls I can make when I'm when I'mgoing through a period where maybe,
the phone isn't ringingas much as it normally does, is calling
someone else in my field and hearing,you know, they're a little slow to that.
That I'm slow to conversation can helpkeep you saying, you know, we're

(07:27):
our line of work is seasonal.
You know, for whateverreason, people get arrested.
They're not that interested
in hiring an attorneywhen their kids are out of school.
But then when their kidsget back into school, you know,
we get really busy from like mid-Octoberto about, oh, the beginning of November.
That slows down for the holidaysand then it picks up again.

(07:47):
So the seasonal aspect of it is somethingthat,
was definitely something that was hardto get used to at first.
But, you know, onceyou go through enough of those cycles,
you kind of learn that,you know, the phone's going to ring again,
you're going to be okayand just kind of keep moving forward.
Yeah.
And if somebody is thinking about this,somebody listening to this or thinking
about starting their own law firmor maybe starting their own business,

(08:09):
what kinds of tips or advicewould you provide to them?
The thing that works for me,you know, there's there's a subset
of criminal defense attorneysthat are former prosecutors, kind of
we all kind of,you know, talk and kind of hang out.
So, you know, and I was thinkingabout going out on my own.
I was fortunate enoughto had a lot of conversations
with a lot of really good people,a guy named Joe Marcus in particular,

(08:33):
Josh Ritter.
Ty. And he's, Pat Carey.
All really good folks.
Sam Amanpour, Sandy Rojas,all really good attorneys who,
we're more than they're very busy, morethan happy to take the time to talk to me.
So my advice would be, if you're thinkingabout going out on your own
is make sure you talk with some peoplewho respect who look like they've

(08:53):
got the hang of it, and you'll get,you know, they've been through it.
You know, they've been through the upsand downs, and they can give you,
a lot of pointers.
And the one thing I kept hearing early on,
when I was thinking about going a outout of my own for a criminal offense, was.
There's two rules for criminal defense.
The first rule is get the money upfront,
and the second ruleis get the money up front.

(09:15):
So that's one thing I learned.
I did not have to learn from that mistake.
You know,I talk with a lot of people about it.
I mean, it worked out.
So, you know, I found peopleto be very generous with their time,
when they're talking with someone who'sthinking about going and kind of doing
the same thing they did,which is going on in your own,
investing in yourselfand and seeing what you can do.
Yeah.
And have you felt like that

(09:36):
has been, a journey of self-discovery?
You know, that's that's one thingI've heard about entrepreneurship.
That's something I've felt,throughout entrepreneurship is, is
you learn a lot of things about yourselfand a lot of things about the world
that it feels like.
I don't know how I would have learned themreally, any other way.
I mean, yeah, absolutely.
Look, you get to know the thingsthat you're comfortable with

(09:57):
and the things that you're not comfortable
with and the things that you're
not comfortable with in your business
are the things you probably should spendthe most time doing.
You know, it's the stuff that youdon't like that you need to work on.
And for me personally,
the legalwork is my favorite part of the job.
And being in courtand negotiating a case, breaking it down,
jockeying with a judge in the prosecutor,

(10:19):
picking apart the reports and all that.
The thing that is, somethingthat, I'm learning to appreciate
more is the networkingand the business aspect of it.
So while it's not my favorite thing
to do, that'scertainly something I need to learn.
Or I need to be continue to, to grow inI don't know
certain aspects of your personality.
Maybe that you've discoveredsince running your own business that,

(10:43):
that you might not have found outotherwise.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think a big part of it is
learning to understandwhat you don't know.
And because, like, there's there's a splitbetween the things, you know, things,
you know, you don't know and the thingsyou don't know that you don't know.
And spending a lot of timefiguring out the things you don't know,

(11:04):
that you don't know,and being or feeling lost
for a little while, or trying to figurethose things out is so critical.
Because to your point earlier,it's easy to go back to the things
we're already comfortable withand the things we already know.
And I think the entrepreneurship journeyand the journey towards becoming

(11:26):
entrepreneurially matureis that journey of becoming comfortable
with discomfort and becoming comfortable,not necessarily having all the answers.
Because a lot of timesthat's one thing I found out is
the things I knew
the answers toor I knew I could figure out more easily,
such as things I had experience with, such

(11:48):
as practicing law or being in court.
Those are the things I gravitated towardsbecause they were comfortable.
Those are the things I knew,and if I didn't completely know it,
I had enough points of referencethat I could figure it out.
Or as to your point earlier,regarding networking
or how to build a businessor how to delegate tasks,

(12:10):
those were not things I learned inundergrad despite having a finance degree.
So despite being in the business school
and despite going to law school,they don't teach those things.
Those are things you got to figure outand learn on your own.
And those things are hardbecause there aren't really
guide rails
or guardrails to helpguide you to figuring that out.

(12:34):
That's that's a journey you got to findand and choose to go down on your own.
So that's awesomethat you're learning that very early on,
because it took me a little bit of timeto to really understand that.
Yeah, that's 100% right.
You know, thatthat's the amount of time we spend on me.
Everyone who went to law school remembersthat.
Was it Pearson versus Post, the propertycase involving the Fox or whatever.

(12:57):
That probably has limited applicationfor all of us at law students.
But there is I mean, for me,it was almost non-existent.
Was the focus on the business aspect
of building your own firmor the networking, generally speaking.
And it's funny,I remember, I think the best,
the most important thing I learned in lawschool was from a guy
who had his own practice, and,

(13:19):
he was a trusts and wills lawyer.
And I remember one day in class,
he was talking about clientsand how to keep them happy.
He said, you know what?
If you take five minutes on a Saturdayand you call a client,
they'll think you're working 24 hoursa day, you know, and that's,
you know,the kind of practical application
that you don't get in law schoolthat you kind of have to learn.
But there's value, obviously.
And, and, going, like you said,going through the struggle and learning

(13:43):
to know what you don't knowand making your way through it
and building apractice, you know, and it's,
it's it's
to your point, it'salmost like the challenging part of it
is what makes it worthwhile.
You know, if this if this were easy,then everyone would do it,
you know,so you kind of kind of keep pushing along.
You know,I think that's that's a great point.
Yeah. And and

(14:05):
I think each time you're proud of who
you come out being, each challenge,each struggle,
every moment of crisisthat you successfully navigate through.
Yeah.
You're prouder of yourself havingcome through it and you're stronger.
Sometimes it's just that navigationprocess can take longer than others.

(14:28):
Yeah, 100%.
You know, we all have clients that we loveand we all have clients
that are more challenging,
you know, and we all have situationsthat we don't anticipate
ever having to go through thatyou end up going through.
And you know, I,I like your point is that it
is that going through thesedifficult situations
kind of makes you strongerand makes you a better,
not just a better business person,but a better lawyer, you know?
So it's it's important to kind of keeppushing through those situations and

(14:51):
having faith in yourselfand getting through it, you know?
Yeah.
And speaking of navigating difficultor challenging
situations, let's talk a little bitabout criminal defense.
And in some of the misconceptionsmaybe, or myths that you've heard about
criminal defense law or maybe police
or just the prosecution system in general,

(15:15):
do you any myths cometo mind that you want to bust right now?
RJ, the question I get very frequently is
the officersnever read me my Miranda rights, right.
That's usually the first thing.
If that happens,that's usually one of the first things
someone brings up to meduring a consultation.
And, I think the thought isthat if they don't do that,
your case gets dismissed.
So the way Miranda works is that,

(15:37):
if officers after you're arrested.
So if a police officer pulls you over
for a traffic violation,they don't have to read you.
Your Miranda rights.They can ask you some limited questions.
But if you're back at the police stationand you're in handcuffs
and they sit down and they say,where were you back on this date?
Or why was this such and such in your car?
They have to read your Miranda rightsif they want to get a statement from you.

(15:58):
Now, if they do it, let's say they justthey'd completely blow it.
And they ask you some questions afteryour arrest and you confess or whatever.
That statement doesn't come in,but it doesn't mean your case assessment.
It just applies as to state both.
They call it post custodial, statements.
So that's a big misconception. You know,

(16:18):
I will say that
there's always a lot of questionsabout DUIs and the way to handle that,
because it's a very probably onethat I mean,
it is the more common offensethat we see in criminal offense.
And the vast
majority of people you deal with a DUI,they've never been arrested before.
They're always kind of secondguessing how they should have handled it.
So a couple things just to be mindful ofif anyone's listening is finds himself

(16:40):
in a situation,the field sobriety tests, which are,
you know, touch your finger to your nose,close your eyes, count to 30.
Things like that are totally voluntary.
You know, you don't have to do them.
There's two separate breath teststhey can give you.
They can give you one out in the field.
It's called a pass from the alcohol screendevice, a very small device.

(17:01):
You don't have to take that oneif you don't want to.
So it's up to you now.
However, if they do place you under arrestand they take you to a police station,
you are legally required to eithergive a breath or a blood sample. So
comes very frequently.
What's better to dothe breath of the blood?
Generally speaking, the blood is goingto be more accurate than the breath.

(17:23):
And the nice thing about getting a bloodsample is was two things.
The first thing is that they have to leaveenough blood that you can be retested.
So if you hire a good lawyer,if you're on the border
sometimes 0.08.09 or whateverthe case may be,
we can retest that sampleand see where we land.
And that's a big advantagein a case like that.

(17:44):
And it's also the fact that sometimesit can take a little bit longer
to get a blood draw.
The breathalyzer,they bring you to the station,
they sit you down, you're the machine.
You blow twice, it's done.
Sometimes they can takea little bit longer
for them to get everything they needin order for blood samples.
So if you're kind of, you know,potentially teetering on the edge,
gives you a little bit time to geta little bit more out of your system.
So generallyspeaking, blood is better than breath.

(18:07):
And just, you know, the officersmay pause it like, you have to do this
as you don't have to do the testsas far as the field sobriety tests or the
the breathalyzer or the pass in the field,but very common questions.
You know, I will say that,
one of the best ways that we can kind ofattack a case is usually whether or not
the officers have probable causeto stop one stop on someone.
So officers can't just pull people overand check them to see

(18:30):
if they've been drinking or driving.
They have to have a good reasonfor doing it.
It's like a traffic violation or somethinglike that will give them a good reason.
You know,a DUI checkpoint, but they don't.
They just pulls you over and they doa, you know, a
whole DUI investigation, and they didn'tpull you over for good reason.
We get the whole case kicked.
So in these situations, you know,it's important to get a good lawyer

(18:52):
because it could be the differencebetween,
you know, people have licenses and stufflike that.
They have professional licenses.
A DUI can be a big deal.
So it's important to get a lawyerwho really knows what they're doing.
And generally speaking, it's a good idea
to get a lawyer in the areathat you're in.
They'll know the judge.They'll know the prosecutor.
They kind of know what the prosecutorwill respond to,
what the judge will respond to,to get you the best result that we can.

(19:14):
So it's very,
in terms of that aspect of it, I wasvery kind of local, if that makes sense.
I don't know if that's
been your experiencewith employment and personal injury, but
helps to hire somebodykind of knows the landscape in the area.
100%.
It's always nice when you've got somebodywho knows how to navigate, has the home
court advantage, if you will, of knowingthe people who are going to be there,

(19:36):
knowing the systemand has some level of comfort
with the peoplewho are handling the system.
Let me ask you, when it comes to
the breathalyzer, I've heard mix things
and and by the way, to be very clear,
neither you nor I are encouraging anybodyto drink or drive.
That's true.
It is dangerous.
People get hurt.People get killed every day.

(19:58):
Would you agree with that, RJ?
I would agree with that. Yes.
Okay, so now let's say somebodyfinds himself in an unfortunate situation
where now they're pulled over,they've got red and blue lights,
they've had a few drinkscoming from a holiday party, or whatever.
Friend's house, bar, whatever.
They'renot sure if they're over the limit.

(20:20):
So at that point,
the police officer comes up,
ask you to step out of the vehicle.
One when they ask youto step out of the vehicle,
do you have to step out of the vehicle.
So good question.
So if the officer has so
the officer can only ask you to step outof the car if they have probable cause.
Now that's a questionthat needs to be resolved later.

(20:43):
I would not recommendchallenging the officer
at that pointwhether or not they have probable cause.
You never want to get into a,
a standoff with someone with a gun.
So if an officer pulls up to youregardless
of whether or notin that particular situation
you think they had a good reason to,they can ask you to step out of the car.
Now, you don't have to answerany questions.
You know, they might ask you for your ID,

(21:04):
you have to give them your ID,they may ask you to come certain place.
They might askyou certain background information
like your name, your date of birth.
Things like that is fine, butyou don't have to say how much you drank.
You don't have to saywhere you've been going,
where you are, where you're going,what you were doing, or things like that.
You can just respectfullytell the officer that,
hey, listen,I'd rather not answer those questions.
And that's up to them.
And that's the officer's responsibility.It's their job.

(21:26):
Look, you don't have a responsibilityto help them do their job.
That's up to them.
And they know what they're doing,you know, so they can ask you.
And it's kind of a judgment callfor every situation.
If you want to do some tests,they might phrase it like,
I'm going to ask you to do some tests.
Why don't you come over hereand do some tests, right, and say, hey,
respectfully, officer, you know,I, I'm not going to do those tests.

(21:46):
Hey, I've got, you know, the bias here,but we can just clear you up, you know,
clear this all up, let you go,
and you can just say respectfully,officer, I'm not going to do that.
It's up to you.You know, it's you're right.
And it's just kind of a judgment call.The situation.
You know, ultimately,at the end of the day,
if they make the callthat they can smell the alcohol on you,
that your eyes are wateryor that your speech is slurred and things

(22:07):
like that, if they make the call,they're going to put you under arrest,
you know, go back and then like we talkedabout, do the blood test.
But you're under no obligationto answer questions
about where you were going,what you were doing,
how much you had to drink,or any obligation.
Do any of those tests.
It's a it's a total judgmentcall on your part.
It's,you know, it's not anything I would say.
There's a blanket policyas far as the best route you should go,

(22:27):
but it's up to you.You know, it's entirely your call.
It's their responsibility to do their job.
It's not your responsibility to help them.
So let's say they tell you
from the stories I've heard, there'sthere's always some kind of component
of pressure of, well, if you don't dothis, we're going to impound your vehicle.
Or if you do this like you alluded to,you can just be on your way.

(22:48):
Would you one are they allowed to impound
or take your vehicleif you refuse the breathalyzer?
So if they suspect you
of drinking and driving, they can impoundyour car can be up to 30 days.
Usually you can get out pretty quick.
I will say, look, if it's a situationwhere you're being cooperative,
they're more likely to call.
Have you call a friend or somethinglike that,
or a family memberto come pick up the car.

(23:10):
So that's the risk you run in a situationlike that is if, you know,
if you're not doing them any favors,they're not going to do you any favors.
You know, it's kind of the trade off.
And look, they at the endof the day their goal is to
you know, they're going to want to check
to see if you've been drinking or drivingand drinking and driving.
And it's kind of like I said, it'skind of a judgment call.

(23:33):
You know, it's always the urban legendthat, you keep a bottle of whiskey
in the back of your car,
and then when they pull you over,
you grab the whiskeyand you pound it in front of the officer
so they can't prove when you know,when the alcohol hit,
you said, no,I would not recommend doing that.
That's the urban legend.
It's honestly it's a matter of of

(23:54):
of evaluating the momentand doing what you think is appropriate.
You know, it's
if you're, you know, it's alwaysa good idea to, to talk with a lawyer.
You know, sometimes they'll give youa court date, like 3 or 4 months out,
you know, with the DUIthat DMV suspension has or the request
to challenge it through,the DMV has to be filed within ten days.

(24:14):
So it's always a good idea not to wait,but to get a lawyer as soon as you can
after you've been arrested,after going into custody,
talk to them. Let them know
if you're having professional licensesand things like that.
And go from there.
So it is it is the most commonby far of the of the cases that we handle.
And like I said, it's always peoplewho are never been arrested for

(24:35):
who have, jobs, familiesand things like that.
And they're always a little kind of,unsettled.
So you hire a good lawyer,they can walk you through the process.
They can take away the uncertainty.
They can help you,you know, navigate the whole thing
and get you the best resultthat we can under the circumstances.
So, yeah.
And so can you talk a little bitabout that.
So let's break this down a little bit for,

(24:55):
for the peoplewho aren't as familiar with this process.
So my understanding is under the vehiclecode there's an charge there's a B charge.
And then there's a separate DMV hearing.
And and can you talk a little bitabout how that DMV hearing goes
and whether you have to be found guiltyor plead guilty

(25:18):
to driving under the influencefor your license to be suspended?
That's a great question.
So this court, we call it the accountand the B account for DUI is.
And in most DUIs with alcohol they chargeboth.
It's just an either or. It's not.
It doesn't carry increased punishmentbut the B counts the easy one.
You probably all heard 0.08.
That's the legal limit in California.

(25:39):
For how much you can drink,
or how much alcoholyou can have in your system
before you're legally guilty of a DUI.
I think for the average sizedmale, it's about four drinks.
For the average sizedwoman, it's about to two and a half.
Drinks over the course of an hourwill get you to that level.
It used to be, by the way, 0.15,which is like eight drinks.
So if someone got a DUI in the 70s

(26:01):
or 80s, you know, you know, they werethey're pretty lit.
So that's the B count is your typical0.08, blood alcohol level or higher.
The account is reserved.
Generallyspeaking, it's just kind of a catchall,
someone who's driving while impaired
and it can be two prescriptionand a controlled substance.
So it can't be like you're tiredor you had too much caffeine.

(26:24):
If you've had, if they think you'vehad too much of a prescription medication,
marijuana or other drugs or under certain
limited circumstancesif your blood alcohol level is below 0.08,
but they believe that your conditionwas such that you shouldn't be
driving, it's affected you in such a waythat you shouldn't be driving.
They'll charge the accountso you've got the account.

(26:45):
Loss is usually drugsand things like that.
The B countwhich is a point eight or above.
Now we have what's unique about DUI.
It's kind of these two tracks of the waythe system works.
You have the DMV hearingand you have the criminal case in court.
The first thing we deal with
is a DMV hearing,and that can be very consequential
because we're talkingabout a license suspension.

(27:05):
And that's going to be depend upon,
you know, how high was your blood alcohollevel alleged to be 0.15 or higher?
Do you have any priors?
How old are you?
Things like that play into how long the DVis going to suspend your license.
What happens is when you get a DUI,they take your driver's license,
they give you a temporary license,and that says on that temporary license,

(27:28):
you have ten days to contact the DMVif you want to challenge your suspension.
So let's say you get a DUI,you get arrested.
They take your licenseand you just don't do anything at all.
Don't contact the DMV,don't contact a lawyer.
Your license is going to be suspendedafter 30 days,
at three daysafter your arrest for a first time DUI.
It's about four months.

(27:49):
They'll give you certain thingsyou can do.
So you can avoidhaving to not be able to drive.
But that's, generally speaking, how we go.
Now, if you hire a lawyer, what you can dois you file some paperwork with the DMV
within ten days of the arrest,notifying the DMV
that we want to challengethis person's suspension
rights like a piece of paperor a fax we send over to the DMV.
And then about, oh, 3 or 4 weeks

(28:11):
after that, the DMV will contact usand we'll set up a hearing.
It's called the administrative perse hearing.
Now, it is very kangaroo court.
The judge in this hearingis the same person as a prosecutor,
and it's on the phone.
And what they're doingis reading the police reports
and to making a decisionabout whether or not

(28:31):
the personwas driving under the influence.
That's the main question also,whether the officers had probable cause.
But that's it.
And there's actually beena lot of litigation in this area.
And there was a court casea couple of years ago.
I can't recall it off the top of my headthat held this process was not,
constitutionalunder the California Constitution.
So there's some litigationwhether or not they can do this.
But the way it works is we have a hearing

(28:54):
with your attorney and with youif you want to be present over the phone.
And we make certain challenges to the waythe police reports are written,
whether there was probable cause, whetherthey had a good reason to pull you over,
and whether or not the bloodalcohol level was 0.08 or above. Now,
certain things we can challenge
if the blood draw for the alcoholwas taken
more than three hours after the arrest,we can get it kicked

(29:15):
if there are certain formsthe officers did not fill out properly,
we can get it kicked.
And what that process is calledis called getting it set aside.
So you got this track right,so you got deal with the DMV suspension
and then you got to dealwith the criminal court issue too.
And you can get your licensesuspended here.
And you can also get your licensesuspended in court too.
It's it's really kind of arduous process

(29:36):
where you get a 3 or 4 monthssuspension over here to the DMV
and a 3 or 4 month suspensionover here on the criminal case two.
And here on the criminal case,we're talking about
whether a person should get probation,whether they should do a community service
and alcohol program,
fines and fees and things like that.
That's what we're talking about over hereon the criminal end.
And what we try to do oftentimes,

(29:58):
if we can sell both these mattersat the same time,
we run the suspension together.
So you don't have a four month suspensionwith the DMV.
You have that done,and then your criminal case settles
and you have another four monthsuspension.
So that's the unique thing about the DUI,as you kind of have this
two track process, one through the DMVand one through the criminal courts.
And you know,
if you get a good lawyer, you know,sometimes we can do is, you know,

(30:19):
we can get the videos ahead of timefor the DMV hearing and take a look at it,
see if the officers actuallygot a good reason to pull you over.
We can take a look at whether they didthe field sobriety test properly, checked
all the boxes, did the breathalyzerproperly, and things like that.
And sometimes wecan get a good result to DMV.
And then if we beat the
DMV case, we go to the prosecutor,we say we beat the DMV case.
What are you guys going to doand see how it goes?
So it's a very unique processfor DMV for a DUI.

(30:44):
Yeah.
And and I think it's probably surprisingto most people to realize
that my understanding is that the DMVhearing officer is neither a lawyer
nor a judge, despite actingas both the judge and the prosecutor.
Is that right? That is correct.
You know, and
all they're doingis reading from a script, you know,
they're kind of going through the motionsand they're

(31:07):
you know, they get it's a very
I'd say you have to havea very nuanced approach with them.
A lot of folks, a lot of lawyers will justthrow everything they can at them.
And what happens isthey get a little overwhelmed
because they're out of their element,
and they'll just overrule everythingand then suspend your license.
So the way to approachthese situations is pick
one issue that they can understand.

(31:29):
And Pokemon product send them a motionahead of time before the hearing.
Be very nice about it.
You know, don't be too confrontational.
Hey, I noticed this issue.
I know this portion was inside.
I noticed that the blood draw wasat this time, the arrest was at this time,
and you kind of gently kind of push themin the direction that you want them to go.
And that's the best approach,because to your point, they are neither.
They are not a judge,they're not a lawyer, and they're

(31:51):
out there just reading a scriptand kind of going through the motions.
So yeah, it's very,it can be a very difficult process.
And so I don't want to stay on the DUItoo long, but I think it's important
to touch upon this as well, because it'ssuch a common thing that comes up.
Can you briefly. Well, let me back up.
And it's such a common thing that comes upbecause I think, unfortunately, people

(32:15):
get caught up in, a moment or momentsof bad decisions that are being made.
My personal view on it is it'sprobably not most
people are probably not doing itmaliciously, but it just happens. And
but and part of the
issue is they don't quite understandthe repercussions
or the ramifications of how seriousthis is until it's too late.

(32:39):
So can you briefly touchupon a felony DUI?
So like it's a DUI and they hit somebodyor something and somebody gets hurt.
And what that means realistically,in terms of time,
money and consequences,legal consequences.
Yeah, 100%.
So that's that's a great pointyou brought up about DUI.

(32:59):
You could be,you know, a .35 and almost dead.
And you know, let's sayyou run a red light, you get pulled over.
The consequences for
you are still going to be closeto the consequences for a standard DUI
alcohol program.
Fine. Maybe some community service,
a longer suspension,but it's not going to be awful.

(33:20):
Now put you at that same bloodalcohol level.
You hit someone and God forbidthey die or seriously injured.
The consequences escalate astronomically
to the point where there's a thingin, criminal law called a Watson murder.
And basically what that is, isif the prosecutor looks at your case
and thinks that you were driving
sufficiently sufficient,sufficiently negligently or,

(33:42):
with undue regard for other people,
and you have a priorsay you have one prior DUI
from nine years ago, ten years ago,and something happens at someone's kill.
They charge it as a murder caseso it can be very serious.
You know, you can go from virtually,
a no consequence to the, completely lifechanging situation,

(34:05):
you know, so you get
there's all different kinds of areaswhere you can be charged with if,
you know, you can have, DUI with injury,which is usually a presence,
depending how bad the injuries are,it can be a prison sentence.
So jail being local, prisonmeaning long term,
you can have manslaughterwhile intoxicated.
That also means a prison sentence,usually 6 or 7 years.
And then you go all the way up to murder,which is, life in prison.

(34:27):
So it's it's a really unique offensein the sense that you can have
two virtually identical situations,like I described, where a person's
had too much to drink,they roll a stop sign, they get arrested,
they're getting a low level misdemeanorwhere they roll a stop sign,
they don't see someone and somethinghorrible happens to that person.
The consequencesshoot the roof, you know, and it's

(34:50):
and it's another, you know, it's funny.
You can get anymore.
There's a thing called diversion, which isif someone's charged with a misdemeanor,
you can usually getif they've never been arrested before
and it's a low to mid level misdemeanor,you can usually get
if you have a good lawyer,get the case kicked without a conviction.
Hey judge,we're going to do a community service.
Going to go do anger management.

(35:11):
Let me tell you a little bit aboutmy client or what the situation is here.
And the judge will agree.
Go do this and I'll dismiss your case.
The one exception being DUIs.
You know, that's kind of like the one,the last holdout, where
even if you've never been arrested before,even if you're right on the line,
generally speaking your oddsof getting diversion are very low.
So it's somethingthat's still, despite how prevalent it is

(35:31):
and how it is often the product of,you know, the difference is, you know,
pointoh, point one step between .081 and .079.
There's really no difference,
like practically speaking.
But the law, it's an incredibly differentconsequence as far as law is concerned.
So it's it's this unique areawhere, you know, it's very common.

(35:52):
But you get the you get the whole spectrumin terms of what the possibilities are
in that situation. The consequences are,
if someone were toif something were to happen to someone.
Yeah, absolutely.
And regardless, for example,if somebody is driving through the street,
let's say that the person driving
is abovethe legal limit of .08 here in California.
And somebody suddenly runs outin front of them

(36:13):
in the middle of the streetand they hit them.
Is that arethey still really looking at a felony DUI?
That's a. Good question.So it's a question of proximate cause.
You still have to prove that the drinkingand driving ultimately is what led to,
the person's death.
And so let'syou have a situation sometimes where,
if the person driving,
if their intoxication had nothing to dowith that happened, the other person,

(36:37):
that's a defense right now.
So some might be guiltyof a misdemeanor DUI.
But the problem is,if you've got a dead body on the ground,
the prosecutor,the cops are going to look at that case
and they're going to think of a reasonwhy, and they're going to say, well,
because of your level intoxication,you weren't paying attention properly.
It slowed your motor responses.
And had you've not been drinking,you would have seen this person.
You would have hit the brakes, you know,so it does come up.

(37:00):
You know, you get sometimes you get,
you know, like a friend of minehad a three way
car crash where everyone was drunk.
You know, you've had,
you get situations whereif someone is driving properly
and they get they get hit by someone who's
all right,someone's under the influence driving.
Probably they get hit bysomeone who's not under the influence,
but then because they were underthe influence, they go to jail.

(37:22):
You know, it's it's, you know,I, I've been told a byproduct of,
you know, for a long time, thisthis was not really an offense
that people considered to be that serious,
you know, drinking and driving,which is kind of something people did.
I mean, my speaking with my,my mom about her
folks and my dad about his folks.
It was like,you know, if you were a hammer

(37:44):
driving home from a work event,you got pulled over.
The officer would just take your keysand have you walk home, you know?
And so it wasn't really that big a deal.
So we had this kind of like snap,in the 80s and 90s where,
now you're at a point where, you know,you can't, you know, point
if you're a point at or above,you're going to probably be
on a probation, you'reprobably going to have an alcohol problem.
You're probably goingto have to pay some fine. The views.

(38:05):
You know, I think there's probably a morenuanced approach in there, to your point.
But that's where it stands now.
So, yeah, these are all great questions.
It's a very common offensethat I think people are.
If you're in law school,you've probably been to a few happy hours,
you know, you might be worried about.
So it comes up quite a bit. Yeah.
And in all kinds of professions,you know and again it's holiday
season's coming aroundand so I think it's important

(38:28):
that people know these thingsbecause again, you know,
you and I both as lawyers get these callsfrom friends, colleagues, etc.,
right around this timeand scattered throughout the year.
But, it happens far more frequentlythan people would think.
And the vastmajority, vast, vast majority of the time,
they just didn't knowor didn't think it was that big of a deal.

(38:50):
And so they it's a hard situation to face.
So and also understandingwhat the consequences are
many times are not explained other thanthe typical things you hear about,
in terms of potential jail time, etc.,but like what it really looks like,
I think a lot of people don't realize thatuntil it's too late.

(39:11):
So switching gears, what about this
idea of a police officer
and the difference between themdetaining you and arresting you?
When can you leave?That's a great question.
Okay, so,
detention is basically something shortof a full blown, right?

(39:34):
You think, arrest,think handcuffs and a police car
going to the police station,fingerprints, booking photo.
They'll, you know, full blown custody.
Custody. Right.
Detention as an officer saying,hold on a minute.
Let me ask you some questionsand they're allowed to do that.

(39:55):
If they have what's called reasonable,it's actually more than probable cause.
Probable cause is you know what it is.
Probable cause.
It's a tier belowthat called reasonable suspicion.
So, you know, it'slike they see three people running away
from the bank at the same timewhile the bank alarm is going off.
Right. Hey, guy. Oh, whoa,whoa, whoa. Hold on all the way here.
What are we here? What are you doing?What are you. What are you doing?

(40:16):
They don't have to readyour Miranda rights in that situation.
That would be a detention.
So a detention is like it's supposedto be a brief investigatory stop.
So the officer can assess what's going onand whether or not someone
should be arrested or not,so they can detain you,
ask you some questions, maybeask some other people some questions.
You know,maybe you're on the sidewalk sometimes.

(40:37):
Maybe you're in the back of a car.Sometimes you're in handcuffs.
Let's have a brief procedure
where, police officers allowed to kind ofsort out what's going on
and then make a decision about whetheror not someone needs to be arrested.
And arrested is, like we talked about,full blown.
You're at the police station,you're in handcuffs,
you're being read your Miranda rights.
The legal distinctioncomes in for primarily for Miranda.

(41:01):
That's usually the primary distinction.
And so,
you know,you're never under any obligation
whatsoever to talk to the policelike we talked about earlier.
That's their job to investigate.
You don't have to help them.
You know, I get the question.
You know, if you were to Google right now,should I talk to the police?
You know, you'll see a bunch of crimedefense attorneys websites
pop up their ads.
I'll say, don't talk to cops.
Don't talk to the cops,don't talk to the cops.

(41:21):
And that is, generally speaking,not a bad role.
But I will say that it's not alwaysthe rule.
There are situations where it makes sense.
And so, for example,I had a woman who was,
you know, she was dealing with a situationwhere she's being stalked and,
she got into a fight with this guy,and she ended up getting arrested.

(41:42):
Right?
She they found a video of her hitting himor whatever the case may be.
She got arrested.
And normally the conventional wisdomwould be like,
don't talk to the cops, right?
Don't have your lawyer reach out to them.Just wait and see what happens.
But we were able to provethat this person was.
We had, like text messages,we had phone calls, we had cell
videos, things like thatthat we able to essentially

(42:02):
give to the police officer to helpget the case kicked.
So there are situations where it makessense to talk to the police.
Now. It's it's it's a judgment call.
Right?
It's not always and, you know, it's risky
actually.
But sometimes, you know,
I've had clients I'll goin, we'll walk in and give a statement,
you know, and you, as long as you sit downand talk to them like, hey, listen,
you know, be honest with me.

(42:23):
You know, what happened?
What are we looking at?
And here's the risks of going and talking.
And here are the risks of not talking.
And then we make a decision.
You know, it's it's it'skind of case specific.
And I know, you know,I can think of one case in particular
where a personI have a lot of respect for,
you know, awoman charged with attempted murder,
she bailedout and he took her to the police station

(42:44):
the next day and just sat therewhile she talked for three hours.
Police.
And, they ended up agreeing with herand dismissing the case.
Now, it's risky, right?
But sometimes not talking is risky, too.
You know, it's kind of a kind of a
it's a safe way for a lot of lawyersto avoid making it a tough call.

(43:05):
But sometimes it makes sense to place.
And, you know,I would say I would recommend
if you can't talk with a lawyer,if you can, before you make that decision,
you know, if you're in a tough spot,you don't know.
It's better just to not talkand then come talk to a lawyer.
But sometimes it can make decision,you know, sometimes it can make sense.
I know your area of law too.
I'm sure you have like
the conventional wisdom
aboutsometimes the way things should work,
but that sometimes
you kind of have to be a little bitmore creative and think outside the box,

(43:28):
and maybe you can get better resultsas a result of that.
Yeah, absolutely. 100%.
You know, in terms of
some ofthe outcomes and some of the challenges,
let's talk a little bit about
concealed carry.
That's, that's big and continuesto get more popular.
LA County in California in general opened

(43:50):
this up much more than thanit used to be in terms
of how restrictive it used to be,as far as who can get a concealed carry.
And this is a questionI get pretty frequently about
should I get a concealed carry oneand then two
if I actually use my weapon herein California because there's
a lot of restrictions, including thingslike driving with a loaded weapon,

(44:12):
and if they catch you with that,that being a felony,
a lot of people don't realize that.
Can you talk a little bit about thatlike one, would you what are your thoughts
on concealed carry and the pros and consand give an analysis of how
and when it might be okayto use a concealed carry versus not?
So look, it's a very thoughas to your point, I can't remember

(44:34):
the name of the Supreme Court case,but it was a couple of years ago
where, there used to bea lot of kind of arduous, prohibitive,
checks
on people who wanted to get a concealedcarry permit
such that it became almost impossiblefor certain people to get it.
You know, in California,before the Supreme Court ruling came down,
you had to showyou were the victim of like

(44:55):
an ongoing threat,and you had to get it from a if passed
background check, go to a police stationand get approved by a chief of police.
I believe it was, it's not an easyprocess, you know, it was a lot
of, you know, police, active policeofficers used to be able to get them.
Prosecutors used to be able to get my sonwho's who's actively
being stalkedcould be able to have now the law changed.
And the Supreme Court heldthat you can't really have these kind of,

(45:20):
thesekind of hurdles that have been implemented
by certain municipalitiesor to get a concealed carry permit.
And that should be much more easyto get. So,
that being said, it'sa very personal decision, you know, and,
you know, I having workedat the DA's office for a long time,
I have a lot of friends who are, policeofficers and people in law enforcement,

(45:41):
and a lot of them make the decisionto conceal carry, and that's up to them.
You know,
the laws are very specific, I think, herein California, to be careful.
You know, you can't do,
like, around a school ground or in a baror things like that.
You gotta be careful,you know what you're doing.
And to your point, too,if you're carrying in
a car, has to be very carefulabout where you put it.

(46:01):
And it's be secured in your in your trunk,unloaded and all that kind of stuff.
You know, it's not a it's not a thing.
You just throw in your backseat your car
and to your pointto a lot of these crimes are warblers.
The term robbery is a criminallaw means that
it can be chargedeither as a misdemeanor or a felony.
So you can just be on your wayto work one day.
Forget that you haveput your gun in such and such place

(46:22):
your car get pulled overfor traffic violation.
The officer says you have anything
your car, you're like,oh my God, I forgot about that.
Yeah, I forgot I left the gun in mybackseat or whatever the case may be.
And then, you know, you get a prosecutorlooks at your case and decides
it's worth a felony.
And then all of a sudden you go from
just going from on your wayto work to having a felony.
So my advice would be,you know, talk with your gun dealer.

(46:43):
If you have questions, you can call, okay.
But be very carefulabout these situations,
about where you carry, how you carryand all that, because one little slip,
you know, can result in like the DUI,
one little slip can resultin pretty serious consequences.
You know,I'm trying to think of situations
where I've seen a concealed carry permitgo sideways.
You see a lot of, you see a lot of crazystuff in criminal law.

(47:06):
I haven't really seena whole lot of situations where someone
who's responsibly handlinga gun has gotten into trouble.
You know, obviously,you want to be very careful.
And if you a situationwhere you have a gun in your car or on you
and you're having to answer some questionsfrom a police officer, be
one of the first things out of your mouthis, hey, officer, just FYI,
you know, hands up.
Not like here's my gun,you know, hands up.

(47:27):
I've got I've got a gun on meor or hands up.
I've got a gun in my trunk.You know, things like that.
You know, it's a good question.
Prague.
It's obviously very kind of case specific.
You know, a lot of us,
we have our own firm,sometimes have security concerns.
You know, we might keep certainthings around just to be safe.

(47:48):
But it's really kind of, you know,I would say it's up to the individual,
you know, it's a good question.
And, I don't have a good answerother than be responsible.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so can we talk a little bit moreabout what it means to be responsible?
Meaning here, I'll give you a hypotheticaland you give us the the RJ
take on whether you think this is a proper
and lawful use or an unlawful useof a concealed carry weapon.

(48:12):
So here in Los Angeles,there's a lot of homelessness.
There can be,
significant pockets of crime.
Let's say you've got your CCW,you're walking down the street
and somebody tries to rob you.
Are you required to run or retreatfrom that situation?
Or if you have, are you allowed tothen pull it out, and or use it?

(48:35):
So like every situation is fact specific.
So I can't really sayany given hypothetical.
I get these questions a lot, which is whatif someone breaks into my house?
What am I going to do?
Can I shoot them?
What if it looks like they have a knife?
What if it looks like they have a gun?
So every situation is fact specific.

(48:57):
So I can't say in any given situationhow it's going to shake out.
I will say this as far asthere are some states
which require a duty to retreat,
which is to say that if you're threatenedwith force or violence,
there are some states that sayif you have an opportunity to get away,
you are legally requiredto take that opportunity.
And if you don't, then you'repotentially guilty of a crime, too.

(49:19):
So if there's a way.So a hypothetical would be like,
you're 20ft away from someone
and you hear them yell at you,
in about 10s, I'm going to get outmy knife and I'm going to come get it.
I mean, it's a ridiculous hypothetical,right?
I'm gonna come get you.I'm gonna get my knife.
And those states, right.
Theoretically, you'd have to go walk away,

(49:41):
jump in your car, you can run at the guyand shoot him in the head, okay?
That you'd be in trouble.That's a ridiculous hypothetical.
We got to illustratewhat we're talking about here.
Now, that duty retreatdoes not exist in California,
and it's a very fact specific question.
If someone pulls a gun at you and demandsyour what what they're saying to you
is if you don't give me your wallet, I'mgoing to kill you.

(50:03):
And you are entirely within your rights,generally speaking,
to defend yourself against deadly forcewith deadly force.
So a gun is deadly force.
So I'm pulling a knife on you.Is deadly force. What?
The implication is,give me what I want to.
I'm going to kill you. I'm going to hurtyou really bad.
And you are absolutely

(50:23):
to use deadly force in responseto the threat of deadly force.
Now, where it getsa little bit more tricky.
So it breaks.
And sowhen you see someone outside your window
and they're they're breaking in, right?
And they're not in yet polygonand you shoot them.
And look,if I was on your jury, you're fine, okay.

(50:45):
But at the end of the day,you're going to have some police officers
and some prosecutorsare going to be looking at your case.
They're going to make a decision.
The decisions are going to make is,did you really have to kill them?
You know,and that's the view they're going to take.
And then that's the argumentyou have to deal with in court.
So, you know, it'sa very fact specific question.
If you are being reasonableyou should be okay.

(51:08):
You get situation sometimes.
What was it I got I had I saw a videoonline of a guy who went in to go Rob.
It was like a restaurant.
He gun was pointing at the customers,and a guy who was concealed
carrying pulled out a gun, shotthe guy like 3 or 4 times.
Guy hits the ground and about ten secondsgo by like 10s go by

(51:28):
and he walks up to the guy,give him one last round on the head
and you're like, you know what, man?
You know, you're probably going toyou might not be guilty,
but you're probably going tohave to answer to that. So,
we I could go on about the subject,but it's always the problem is, too.
It's a very emotional situation.
People react emotionally when they'rewhen they're scared for their life,
you know, and it's an understandable thingto maybe be sure that the person

(51:52):
you're dealing with is not going to bea threat to you anymore,
but that the extent that you can,you got to,
you know, it's important to be reasonable.
You know, it's hard to say when you'refaced with a life or death situation.
Remember what this guy in this podcastsaid, you know, but,
it's always going to bewhether you're behaving reasonably or not
and whether you behaving reasonably or not
is going to be up to a jury, generallyspeaking.

(52:13):
Yeah, absolutely.And one thing I've heard regarding that is
you and I don't knowif this is just an urban myth or urban
legend, but,you should shoot below the waist in there.
That way you avoid an argumentthat you were trying to kill them,
that you've got a better argument to say.
Look, I was just trying to protect myself.Do you agree with that?
Or is that look that.
It's a very like I said, it'sall very fact specific.

(52:34):
So, you know,if the police look at your case
and they say it was, you know,hypothetically, a person got shot.
I remember the name of the arterythat runs the leg. That's a fatal artery.
If he gets hit, if he gets it, it'scertainly a situation that's going to
you're going to look, they're going to beless inclined generally to arrest you
than like the guy in the videowho went up 10s

(52:54):
afterthe guy was out and shot him in the head.
You know, it's it's very, very there'sno bright line rule.
It's not like if someone's in your house,you automatically get to kill them
and thatyou're going to have a good argument.
If that happens,
you're going to have a good argument,but it's very fact specific. And.
That's how it's going to play out.
You know, it's going to behow the police officers view the evidence

(53:17):
and you want to get an attorneyif you've ever in that situation.
And then how the prosecutor viewsthe evidence, you know, it's,
you know, shooting belowthe waist is probably going to be a fact.
That's going to bethat's going to lead you
to be less likely filed against them,shooting them in the head.
But you know,everything is specific. Yeah, 100%.
So so what if the fact pattern isyou are an ex hitman

(53:38):
who just wants to retire,and then somebody comes and kills your dog
and that person is a partof a criminal enterprise.
Are you allowed to avenge your dead dogby killing this criminal enterprise?
Well, so if you if you can killthe people, like, in a really cool
way, like with pens and stuff like that,then I think you're totally off the hook.
You know, I don't think yellingand don't got anything to worry about
if you can kill themand spectacular fashion,

(54:01):
then you got nothing to worry about.
You got to put on a show.
Absolutely.
Well, RJ,if people want to learn more about you
or find you, call you for some help,how can they find you?
What's your website?
What are your social media handles?
Thanks, frog.
So it's, art, so it's drilling law.
That's d like David r e I l

(54:23):
I n g law a pc.com.
You can find me on Instagramat Drilling Law APC.
I'm also on your LinkedIn at drilling lawAPC in my name RJ drilling.
So the best places to get a hold of me.
Okay, this is super helpful.
I very much appreciate you being on.
I'm sure the listenerslearned a tremendous amount as I did,

(54:44):
about the criminal justice systemin general and some tips and tricks.
So I very much appreciate you being on.
Thanks for having me, Brogan.It was my pleasure.
You're definitely a lawyerI have a lot of respect for.
So thanks for having me on and, lookforward to talking to again in the future.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
And to the listeners,thank you so much for joining.
If you like this episode,make sure you like and subscribe.
So you know when futureepisodes are coming out.

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Legal Tips for Small Business Owners and Entrepreneurs | #9

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Legal Tips for Small Business Owners and Entrepreneurs | #9