Am I An Alcoholic?

Heather and Zoe confront the question: Am I an alcoholic? They unpack the subtle and not-so-subtle signs of alcohol dependence—from hiding bottles in purses to needing a drink just to go on a date—and how these moments felt “normal” until sobriety changed their perspective. They reflect on how alcohol quietly took control and how their paths to recovery began with asking the hard questions. 

Mentioned in this episode:

• TV: The White Lotus, Vanderpump Rules

• Movies: The Hangover

• Celebrities: Patrick Schwarzenegger, Walton Goggins, Kristen Doute

• P Diddy (Sean Combs) Trial

• Toronto Metropolitan University (formerly Ryerson University)

• CAMH: Center for Addiction and Mental Health

• Toronto Vintage Show

Listen, rate, and subscribe to Girl, Undrunk 🎙️✨ Episodes drop weekly on Wednesday. Proud of you!

Production by Ariane Michaud at Consciously Produced LLC, artwork by Martin Nuñez-Bonilla, sound set-up by Ian Sit, music/final edits by Daniel James, and transcript by Chelsea Neilan.

Episode Transcript

Heather (00:00):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
difficult for some listeners.
Please take care while listening.
Hey everyone.
Welcome back to Girl Un Drunk.
I'm Heather, your host, and somehowwe're already on episode seven this week.
Zoe and I are getting into the big,very scary question: Am I an alcoholic?

(00:20):
We talk through the signs, both theobvious ones and the ones that felt
totally normal to us until we got sober.
From hiding bottles in our purses toneeding a drink just to go on a date.
We're reflecting on all the waysalcohol was quietly taking over
our lives, and how hard it canbe to see that when you're in it.
We also talk about the impact addictioncan have on our friends and families.

(00:41):
The lying, the disappearing,the emotional chaos.
It doesn't just hurt us.
It hurts the people we love most.
Sometimes our familiesknew sometimes they didn't.
Either way, it can leave deepmarks, confusion, guilt, grief.
Those relationships can take timeto heal even after we get sober.
A quick heads up.
This episode includes sometalk about suicidal ideation.

(01:03):
That was part of our story, and Ijust wanna say I'm so grateful to
still be here, to be sitting acrossfrom Zoe laughing and telling the
truth and doing this together.
Recovery is possible.
It's not easy, but it is so, so worth it.
Let's get into it.
You're listening to Girl and Drunk.

(01:38):
Welcome listeners.
Welcome back to the seventhepisode of Girl Undrunk.
I'm your host Heather.

Zoe (01:44):
And I'm Zoe.

Heather (01:45):
And we back, baby.

Zoe (01:47):
We're back.

Heather (01:48):
How, uh, how was your week?

Zoe (01:49):
My week was good.
I am getting really anxious andnervous to speak at my meeting
on Saturday because I'm speaker-

Heather (01:57):
Okay.
That's this Saturday,

Zoe (01:59):
at my meeting on Saturday.
So I'm very nervous for that.
I feel ready and I feel liketime for me to be the speaker.
It's just, I'm gonna be really nervousand anxious until Saturday's done.
When Saturday's done, I'm gonnafeel like a weight has lifted
off me 'cause I know I can do it.

(02:20):
It's just, I'm so nervous for it.

Heather (02:22):
Of course.
It's so scary.
You're doing a performance andit's a vulnerable performance.
It's wild.
And you are doing this becauseyour friend is getting her year
chip or medallion and she gets tochoose who speaks at the meeting.

Zoe (02:35):
Yeah, exactly.
And she chose me and I said, yes.

Heather (02:38):
Do you know what you're gonna say?

Zoe (02:39):
You are supposed to say what it was like before what
happened and what it's like now.
So basically my whole story.
I'm just gonna make sure, likeI try to talk slowly and don't
forget anything that's likeimportant about my whole story.
'Cause I'm gonna probably haveat least 20 minutes to share

Heather (02:58):
Holy shit.

Zoe (02:59):
Like 20 to 30 minutes.

Heather (03:01):
That'll go by fast.

Zoe (03:02):
I hope so.

Heather (03:02):
Do you want me to come?

Zoe (03:03):
No.
Nah.
I don't know.
I'm like too nervous.
I am probably just gonna talk, belooking at my sponsor the whole time.
Because she told me that she'll sitfront row and I can just talk to her.
So I might just be talking to her thewhole time to make me feel comfortable.

Heather (03:21):
Do you think you're gonna cry?

Zoe (03:23):
Who knows?

Heather (03:23):
Do you cry?

Zoe (03:24):
I do cry.
I might cry.
Like after it's over, I feel likeI'll be too nervous when I'm up there.
I might go blank and like do my ownthing and not realize that everyone's
there until after and then cry, you know?
I don't know.

Heather (03:38):
Oh my God.

Zoe (03:39):
I don't know what's gonna happen.

Heather (03:40):
It's gonna be amazing.

Zoe (03:41):
I can't wait for it to be done.
So that I won't befeeling like this anymore.

Heather (03:45):
Totally.
But this is good.
And also I had a prof recently tell me.
My first year back in school, he said,your body doesn't know the difference
between nervousness and excitement.
So if you're feeling nervous just liketell yourself like, no, I'm excited.
This is this excited feeling.

Zoe (04:02):
I am excited for it.
As well.
'cause I'm excited to share everythingto my fellow addicts and alcoholics.
And hopefully like someone can relate.
It's just, I've been doinga lot of firsts recently.
Like, this is a first for me.
The sharing will be a first for me.

(04:22):
I guess I'm like in a relationshipnow, which is like a first for me.

Heather (04:26):
Zoe has a boyfriend.
We actually didn't discuss if wewere gonna talk about that, but
we won't get too much into it.
But yeah, this is good.
I mean, this is cool.
And you're feeling your firsts?

Zoe (04:40):
Yeah, which is scary and exciting.

Heather (04:43):
Yeah, I, I kind of feel that way too.
Even like, I've never been like a personwho takes videos of anything on the
street, but even the other day we went todinner and we were making tiktoks for the
podcast and I'm like, this is new and it'snerve wracking 'cause I'm on the street.
But it's exciting.

Zoe (04:57):
And also I can do anything like that with you.
Like I could never do that by myself.
No, but we're doing tiktoks together,being silly, goofy girls on the street.
I don't care if anyone thinkswe're annoying and lame walking by.
I'm with my best friend.

Heather (05:09):
I'll just wave them by.

Zoe (05:11):
So fuck off.

Heather (05:17):
I have like a baseline level of anxiety, but this was such a dark
winter I feel like every winter.

Zoe (05:23):
Well, I was saying with my friend last night actually that sometimes
this in between weather makes memore depressed than the winter.
Because the winter, at leastwe know what to expect.
Like it's gonna be dark,it's gonna be cold.
This it's warm for a little bit.
And then it tricks you.

Heather (05:41):
It tricks you.
And gives you a little bit of hope.

Zoe (05:42):
It's instantly cold and you're like, what the fuck?
It's almost worse in winter.

Heather (05:48):
I know.
How is your, how's your mental health?

Zoe (05:52):
My mental health, I mean, it's good except for like I am anxious.
And I think like after deciding,I'm gonna be so proud of myself and
I just have to keep telling myselfthat, that it's gonna be all worth it.
It's just, for now, I'm super nervous.
Super scary.

Heather (06:08):
I, I guess my mental health too, I'm feeling a little
bit self-critical and I'm trying tobe in tune with my natural cycles.
I like wear the aura ring and it liketracks my period and my menstruation
and my energy and all that shit andI just, this week I've been so like,
my body looks weird, I'm an idiot.
Like, just things like that, I'vebeen kind of extra critical and I'm

(06:30):
like, hold on, what's going on here?
Like we don't need this.
Like, let's look at our periodtracker and see what's going on.
'Cause every month I'm a nightmare.
And I'm freaking out and I'mlike, should we just end this now?
And then my period comesand I'm like, oh right.
Right.
This is a thing that happens to meevery month and I cannot figure it out.

Zoe (06:47):
It's good to blame it on your period.
Totally.
You know?

Heather (06:50):
Totally.

Zoe (06:50):
I think that we should just blame everything on our period.

Heather (06:53):
It's just crazy how emotional I get and that's definitely been
different since I got my IUD taken out.
A year and a half ago now I'm anemotional mess and my period's
insane.
Zoza, do you
wanna get into some sober news?

Zoe (07:05):
I am ready for you.

Heather (07:07):
Okay.
So there's this influencer who is talkingabout, she actually asked at the end
of the video for nobody to speak aboutit and make money off of this story.
This is just for her to share.
Now, I'm not gonna say her name, but ifyou, if you know, you know this makeup
influencer, her husband has clearlybeen struggling with alcohol, maybe
drugs or just alcohol for a while.

(07:30):
And she just, people weresaying like, where is he?
Where is he?
Dah, dah, dah.
And so she's come out and finallysaid like, he's gone to rehab.

Zoe (07:37):
I think it was like the best video I've seen of someone talk about a
person who's an alcoholic or an addict.
I felt good about what she was saying.
Like it felt very real.
I got teary-eyed watching it'cause I'm like, fuck, that's
what I put my parents through.
That's what I put my friends through.
It did make me cry a little bit.

Heather (07:58):
It's it's pretty intense.
I mean to be able to talk about ouraddiction is one thing, but there
is a whole other side to this.
All the collateral.
And being married to an addictand someone who is in and out of
addiction, relapsing, staying sober.

(08:18):
It's gotta be so hard.
I am so glad I didn't have a spouse.
Because that would've addedso much more bullshit.
Like, now I have to worry ifyou're gonna stay and be mad at me.
I was listening to her talk up aboutthis, and I, I wanted so badly to
just be like, oh my God, leave.
Like, just leave.
And, and I didn't feel that thewhole way through the video, but

(08:40):
some points I'm like, oh my God,you guys like just got married.
How did you not see this before?
How, you know what I mean?

Zoe (08:47):
No, I think that like, she was saying that she knew what she was getting into.
She knew that he was an alcoholic.
She met him in a sober living.
And I think she knew thatthis is what comes with it.
And that's, she went through it and sheis gonna be there when he's out of rehab
and I think that if I marry an alcoholicaddict, like yeah, I'm marrying you

(09:11):
knowing that relapse is possible for you.
Same thing if someone marries me,they're marrying me, realizing that
this is maybe not gonna be it forever.
I could turn into a crazy person andhopefully I can get through it with you.
If you think that you're marrying analcoholic and he's gonna stay sober
forever that's naive of you thinking that.

Heather (09:30):
Okay.
But I don't know that people know that.
So I think that there is an ideathat someone gets sober, they
don't drink anymore, but they'refine, they don't drink anymore,
and then something does happen.
And that's so scary because the personwho's never had an addiction seeing this
person that they love in their addiction,you, you can say for better or for

(09:51):
worse, but when it happens, it is scary.

Zoe (09:54):
A hundred percent is scary.
And I don't think-

Heather (09:56):
I'm not saying either way, like you should leave them.
It just was my first.

Zoe (09:59):
Don't think that you should stay with them forever, even
if that addiction takes over.
I think that if it was mepersonally, I would probably
give it like a couple years.
And if he can't figure it out,then I'm gonna have to leave him.
But I wouldn't leave him just becausehe relapsed for like a year, you know?
It's something that I would gointo that relationship knowing, I

(10:21):
guess, because I know because Iam an alcoholic and I know that.
I know that, for me at least,that's always an option that
could unfortunately happen.
But yeah, I guess for the regular person,if she never knew him as an alcoholic
then yeah, it's, it would be really scary.
But that is naive of you, of thinkingthat he's just gonna be sober forever.

Heather (10:44):
It just needs to be a bigger conversation of like, I'm an addict.
If I relapse, this is probablywhat it's gonna look like.
Are you ready for that?
Like, and you don't wannasay that because you-

Zoe (10:56):
and they may have had that conversation.

Heather (10:58):
Maybe.
Well, for them specifically, maybe.
I thought she was amazing.
I thought she did a great job.
Just like saying it straightforward,being like, this is a real
thing that's happening.
Mind you, she's been like on theinternet doing her makeup and being
beautiful and cool and funny and it'slike all of this stuff is going on
behind the scenes and like it's real.
It happens all the time.

Zoe (11:18):
And when she was saying that she had to kick him out, I
think that was a very real thing.
Like you can't enable someone, even ifit's your husband forever, you can't let
him live in the house with you when youaren't accepting what he's doing forever.
So that was, that was really coolthat she did that because like it is

(11:39):
fine to think about yourself first.

Heather (11:42):
That's exactly right.
And I, it, it wasn't like a punishment.
No.
Like he had to get outbecause he's drinking.
It's like, this is actually not goodfor my mental health and if I wanna
help you in any way, I have to help me.
Like, I have to be good on myown and you know, whether you're
sober or not, like your mentalhealth does have to come first.

(12:02):
I really do wish them the best and Ihope he's getting the help that he needs.
It seems as though he is so that's good.
Scary though.
It is scary.
Like, you know, your life isgoing one way and then all of
a sudden it's like, whoops.

Zoe (12:14):
But that is what addiction is.

Heather (12:16):
I know.
It's so scary to thinklike that could happen.
Like, I'm, I'm good now.
I feel good, but like 10 years down theroad, like it is possible to relapse.
Like, it's crazy.
I don't know.

Zoe (12:27):
No.
Any day, you know, this is like,just because I'm sober today
doesn't mean I'm sober tomorrow.

Heather (12:32):
I know.
But I will be

Zoe (12:35):
God willing.

Heather (12:36):
Um.
White Lotus

Zoe (12:38):
White Lotie.

Heather (12:39):
You're watching it.

Zoe (12:40):
White Lotie.

Heather (12:41):
It's so good.
It's so, first of all, theydo such a good casting job.
It's such a good show.

Zoe (12:46):
The Pill Popper, what's her name?

Heather (12:48):
What is her name?
The mom.

Zoe (12:49):
The mom.

Heather (12:50):
When she's like sitting on the bed at the end of the episode and
it's like, "I'm just not built foran uncomfortable life" or whatever.
Whenever she says that, I'm like, oh fuck.
It's about to get so bad.
And I, I'm like, yeah, you justgotta keep those pills popping babe.

Zoe (13:04):
Because, but she's out.
And it's funny becauseshe ran out of her pills.
Like what, two episodes ago?
And she hasn't been taking her pills.
She's having no withdrawals.
No nothing.
It's just like, fine.

Heather (13:15):
I know.
I wonder if she's just supplementingso much with like wine and stuff.
But even still,

Zoe (13:20):
I think it just is showing that she never really needed
them in the first place.

Heather (13:24):
Maybe

Zoe (13:24):
You know, I think she was just using it as a comfort thing.

Heather (13:27):
And you like jump on board if everyone else is like
popping a Xanax, you might as well.
And also if you pop one Xanax,you're gonna eventually just
pop two and then be a Xanax mom.
But I do really like her.

Zoe (13:39):
I love her.

Heather (13:41):
Okay, let's talk about the conversation between the son and
the dad when the dad is like alreadyon his drugs and he comes out and
the son is like, what is going on?
And he's like, I had a few drinks.
He's like, it's not about the drinks.
What's wrong with you?
Because their businessis like, what did he do?
Did he launder a bunch of money?

Zoe (13:58):
Something like that.
He did something illegal.
And now he's gonna go to jailfor it and lose all his money.

Heather (14:04):
What a nightmare.
That is actually one of my nightmares.

Zoe (14:07):
That is really scary.

Heather (14:08):
It is terrifying.
I don't have that kind of money,but I just worry that the IRS
is coming for me, but stay away.
But the Schwarzenegger the kid, he's,"he's like my life and my career is
tethered to yours," talking to hisdad, "I don't have anything else.
If this goes away, I don't havehobbies, I don't have interests.

(14:30):
I'm not good at anything." AndI was like, did I write this?
Because that's the shit thatI went through with dance.
And like, if I don't havethis, I don't have anything.
So this better fucking workout.
And that's like the rhetoricI had my whole life.
Interesting.
And so when it did go away, I was like,this is what I didn't wanna happen.
This is what I was trying toavoid my whole fucking life.

(14:51):
And when he was saying that,I was like, oh, oh my God,
he is gonna turn to alcohol.
He's going to get so fucked up.
Like his mom is like, likean addict, assumingly.
And I'm like, this kid has nothing.
This is so dangerous.
This is all the boys that I grewup with who thought they were going
to the NHL and didn't go to the NHLand then did a bunch of cocaine.

Zoe (15:14):
I don't think I had that ever.
I don't think I had anything that likeI cared about that much besides booze.

Heather (15:20):
Well, and that's helpful.
If I had alcohol growing up, I probablywouldn't have been so stressed.
Well, I don't know.

Zoe (15:27):
But then you would end up been so successful with dance because-

Heather (15:30):
Yeah, that's true.

Zoe (15:30):
I was very successful with figure skating until the booze came around,
and then I chose the booze over skating.

Heather (15:36):
Oh, really?
That was like an act of choice?

Zoe (15:39):
Well, obviously I wasn't like dumb thinking that the
booze was helping my skating.

Heather (15:45):
No.

Zoe (15:45):
So I was like, I don't care anymore about skating.
I'm gonna just drink.

Heather (15:50):
Goggins has a conversation with that director.

Zoe (15:54):
So in the one episode, he's sober and he talks about his, like sexual escapades.

Heather (16:02):
He also says when he's, he's talking about being sober,
and he was like, A milliondrinks would never be satisfying.
And I'm like, oh, yeah, thisis like a full AA thing.
The like, do you guys say this?
Like one, one is too many anda thousand is never enough.

Zoe (16:18):
I don't think that's like a saying that we say a lot, but

Heather (16:21):
Okay.
Then maybe that was just like frommy rehab or whatever, but I was
like, yes, first of all, this personis an addict right off the bat.
And then he goes on to talk abouthis story and it's just like
progressively getting more crazy.
And then he starts talking aboutwanting to be one of the Asian
girls that he was fucking andhe wanted to be fucked like that.
And then he is getting fucked like thatand he is getting fucked like that.

(16:44):
And I just was like, thisstory just feels so real.

Zoe (16:47):
Like I, it feel, it felt very real to me.

Heather (16:50):
Right?
It, to me, it didn't feel like,'cause at first I'm listening to
it, I'm like, oh, maybe he's gay.
And then I was like.
This isn't a sexuality exploration.
That's not what this feels like.

Zoe (17:02):
It's, it's just like, when is it enough?

Heather (17:04):
It feels like you're drinking, you're doing drugs, you're
fucking, you're, you're gettingyourself into precarious situations
and it's never satisfying enough.
And so you have to be fucked like anAsian girl to feel something 'cause
you've already desensitized yourself.
This is how I feel aboutthe Diddy situation.
When people are like, oh my God, theyhave this many bottles of baby oil and

(17:25):
they were freak offs and they were havingsex with donkeys and all this shit.
I'm like, yeah, this is disgusting.
This is horrendous.
It's not surprising to me becauseif you have so much money, so much
power, you can fuck whoever you want.
Well, that 20-year-old girl isn'tsuper interesting to me because I
fucked every single person like her.

Zoe (17:45):
Exactly.

Heather (17:45):
And so now I need to go to like my, my producing partners or
children or animals 'cause you'rejust pushing the fucking limit.
It's like, get sober, relax.

Zoe (17:58):
Did P Diddy have a drug problem?

Heather (18:01):
I don't know if P Diddy is an addict, but he does a fuck ton of drugs.
Like they were doing likemassive amounts of cocaine.

Zoe (18:09):
I didn't know if he was doing it or if he was just giving it to everybody.

Heather (18:12):
No, I'm sure he was doing it.
I think to stay up for thatlong and to fuck like that you
have to be doing something.
Cocaine makes you really horny.
I just don't know if you can-

Zoe (18:23):
I could never like, whenever I was hooking up with guys and they
were on coke, it would always bea mission to get that thing up.
Let's just say that.

Heather (18:32):
I imagine it was like I imagine for all of them,

Zoe (18:36):
But then they just like take Viagra, I guess.
And then it's fine.

Heather (18:40):
Oh my god.
They're disgusting.
But that's just how I feel.
I'm like, you get to this point inyour life, in your drug use and your
alcoholism, where you're just like, I,you know, I have friends who are like,
oh like I had sex workers come to thehouse when my wife was away, or when
my wife was at dinner with her friends.
Men have said this to my face.
You can't really control whatyou do when you're on cocaine.
You're just super fucking horny.

Zoe (19:01):
Yeah, no, I believe it.
My boyfriends would get super fuckinghorny on coke and then not get hard, and
I'm like, well then what do you want?

Heather (19:09):
This is so useless.
Like what is the point?

Zoe (19:12):
When I was listening to him doing that speech about his sex life at
first I was like wow, this is weird.
And then I was like, oh, I love this andno one's gonna understand this, but I
understand this 'cause I am an alcoholic.
And I didn't do everything like thatbut like I, my sex definitely got
weirder throughout my alcoholism.

Heather (19:35):
That's interesting.
And you liked it?

Zoe (19:38):
Yeah.

Heather (19:38):
You wanted to be pushing the limits?

Zoe (19:40):
Yes.

Heather (19:41):
I didn't really want to be, I definitely did because I was
trying to like keep men happy or likebe useful but there were definitely
some things that I did because Iwas wasted that I'm like, oh God.
Like that's not for me.

Zoe (19:54):
Thinking back on it now, no, I wouldn't do half the things I did, but-

Heather (19:58):
But at the time.

Zoe (19:59):
At the time then that's what I wanted.
A hundred percent.

Heather (20:02):
And it, it doesn't feel crazy at the time.
I mean it's like doing drugs in general.
Some people look at drugs andthey're like, huh, I would
never, that's terrifying.
And then some people likeus are like, it's fine.
He said this thing too, where he is like,I was trying to fuck my way to happiness.
And I was like, yeah, I know.
That's what you're trying to do.

(20:23):
You really-

Zoe (20:23):
That's so relatable.

Heather (20:24):
Yes.
And in a weird way, and I can't fullyeven figure out how that relates to
me, but I'm like, you are doing a thingthat probably doesn't feel good anymore.
Right?
Like, you fucked so many people.
It's probably not doing whatyou think it's doing, it
doesn't make you feel better.
And that's the same withlike drugs and alcohol.
It's like, you know, you're gonna wakeup with a hangover and it's like, I know.

(20:45):
But the thing, I can't stop doingthe thing because it's for a reason.
And it's for happiness.
It's too dissociate.

Zoe (20:51):
It's, it's for like that two minutes of happiness.
That's what we're chasing.
That two minutes of happinessafter the first sip.

Heather (20:58):
You're not gonna fuck your way to happiness.

Zoe (21:00):
I mean, you can try.

Heather (21:01):
You could try.

Zoe (21:03):
And then the next episode he gets drunk.

Heather (21:08):
Well, and, and Goggins is like, aren't you sober?
And he's like, ah, it's Bangkok one night.
I'm like, mm. Anything I know aboutBangkok from the movie, The Hangover
is that one drink is going to get you-

Zoe (21:20):
Well, that was an excuse.
That's what we would say too.
That's what we would say too.

Heather (21:24):
And I mean, the thing about traveling and being in a place
where like everything is centeredaround alcohol, it probably does
make you feel like, I can do this.
It's fine.
It's not even really my real life.

Zoe (21:35):
So he ordered a drink because he had to fake being a director.
I could see him like getting anxious aboutlying and it comes back to the lying.
If you are starting to lieand not telling the truth.
You could tell he was anxious andthat's when he ordered the drink

(21:56):
because he couldn't handle the lying.
The pressure that it took from him.

Heather (22:00):
And it's the same with the dad, right?
He's taking all the lorazepam.
It's like he's doing all these lies.
And I'm sure they started with micro lyingand like his wife has never understood
what's happening in his business.
To me that feels verymuch like she's over here.
He runs the money.
She has nothing to do with his finances.
And that is terrifying.

(22:22):
Ladies-

Zoe (22:23):
Don't do that.

Heather (22:23):
You gotta take a business class.
You gotta know where your money is going.

Zoe (22:26):
Yes.

Heather (22:27):
But she's gonna be fucked when this whole thing comes crashing down.
But he's doing the same thing.
He's lying and he's taking drugsto mask how stressed out he is.
If you had just been open andhonest from the get go with your
family about probably everything-

Zoe (22:43):
But you can see the difference of drug, right?
Like the Lorazepam, he's just likemellowing out, not doing anything.
Yeah, right.

Heather (22:49):
He just wants to dissociate.

Zoe (22:50):
He wants to dissociate.
And then with the alcohol, he's loud.
He's obnoxious.
Yeah, he's dangerous.

Heather (22:57):
It is dangerous.
I'll be watching it tomorrowbecause I'm asleep by nine o'clock.
I'm actually watching it actuallyrecently, I've been falling
asleep at like 11 and I'm-

Zoe (23:04):
That is so good for you.

Heather (23:05):
No, I don't like it because I like-

Zoe (23:07):
Are you still phoning him at 7:00 AM?

Heather (23:09):
Okay, so this is another little mental health check.
I have a sober companion who Ideeply, deeply care for and we,
we speak every single day, twicea day, sometimes more than that.
He calls me every single morning at6:00 AM and then every day at like 3:30.
That's how I start my day.
He calls me- we went to rehab together.

(23:30):
He calls me, we chat, whether it'sabout sober stuff or not, it sets
up my day as like a sober day.
We've been doing this for two years.
Like we really haven't missed a dayand recently he's been going through
some personal stuff where he justwas like, I need to take a break from
our friendship for a little bit andlike figure some stuff out on my own.

(23:51):
And that's fine, I get it.
But I've really, really come to expectand appreciate my morning phone calls,
because again, my whole life is sober.
Everything I do is to be sober.
And I like it like that.
And it's like, I love mysober calls in the morning.
We're both awake at 6:00 AM.
Neither of us are hungover.

(24:12):
We're just talking about the day.
It's only been like four days and I'mlike, Ugh, I miss my sober friend.
Like, it's so nice.

Zoe (24:19):
That's interesting because I feel like I had this transition happen to
me when I was what like three monthssober after my rehab guy relapsed.
And then obviously I stopped talkingto him and I felt weird too, because I
didn't have my sober companion anymore.
But I don't know, you get over it.
It's like, it almost feels better afterto be like, oh, I can do this on my own.

(24:43):
I don't need him to,I don't make me sober.

Heather (24:46):
And definitely the first year, maybe even the year and a
half of my sobriety, I needed it.

Zoe (24:51):
You needed him.

Heather (24:51):
I really did.

Zoe (24:53):
I feel the same way about my guy.
Like I needed him in that firstpivotal time to transition
from rehab to real life.
And I respect everything that he taughtme, and I'm so thankful for him but I also
realize it it couldn't keep happening.

Heather (25:08):
Yeah

Zoe (25:09):
That's not inevitable.
You need to do it for yourself.

Heather (25:12):
Well, and that's true too, because like he could, he's fine,
but like what if that person died?
That's my sober companion.
And that does happen in recovery.

Zoe (25:21):
Your sober companion has to be yourself.
Like you have to be theone that self sober.

Heather (25:25):
For sure.
But I like it.
I like those morning phone calls andI'm just like, it's like a missing part
of me now and I'm like, oh, come back.

Zoe (25:32):
Maybe this is for the best though.
Low key.

Heather (25:34):
It probably is.
I think we've needed some like space.
It's been pretty codependent,

Zoe (25:38):
But I think calling each other every day, Heather is so codependent
and I didn't wanna say that, but

Heather (25:44):
No, no, it, it is.
But I also know that I don't need him.
I just like it.
I had this conversation with my mom.
A few days ago, and she had listenedto one of the podcasts and she
was like, man, it's hard for me tolisten to sometimes 'cause just like
the stuff that you went through.
And then she was talking aboutlike, me walking home from work
with wine and that's not crazyto me, but it is crazy to her.

(26:07):
Like so much stuff that wesay, I'm like, that's normal.
And she, she was like,how did I not see it?
All this stuff you were going through.
She's like, I knew you were drinkinga lot, but I didn't know how bad
it was and she wasn't doing this,but I felt like, oh, I feel bad.
I feel bad that she feelsbad that she didn't see it.
But I was never gonna let her see it.

(26:29):
We're not gonna letanybody see how bad it is.

Zoe (26:32):
You don't wanna put it on someone else when you're in it.

Heather (26:35):
Did you ever have anyone that was like, after you left rehab
or we're going to rehab, did you havepeople being like, oh, I did not know.

Zoe (26:42):
Everyone knew in my life that I was an alcoholic.

Heather (26:44):
Okay.
Were you hiding it at all?
Like were there times whereyou were hiding your alcohol?

Zoe (26:49):
Yeah, I was definitely hiding it still, even though people knew I wanted
to present that I was getting better, but

Heather (26:56):
Oh, you did?
Oh.
Okay.
'cause you like-

Zoe (27:00):
Like I would try to hide it until like I was noticeably drunk.
Right.
You know?
I know.
It's so hard to do.

Heather (27:06):
It's so hard to do.
That is one of the things thatI think when we get sober and
you do a lot of apologizing.
At some point I'm like, I can'tfeel guilty for this anymore.
Like, you didn't see it.
My mom didn't see it.
She feels bad because I'mher daughter, but I'm like,

Zoe (27:22):
But that's like not up to you to fix that.

Heather (27:26):
No, it's not.
You know, but it just feels likethere's so much apologizing I need to
do around my addiction and now thatthe podcast is out and I'm so open
about things, I forget that like otherpeople have gone through stuff too with
me and I'm like, mom, no, it's fine.
My life was about hiding myalcoholism from you because if
you knew you would take it and youcan't take it from me, you know?

(27:48):
I would be like wasted at their house,like in the middle of the day and they
were just like, Jesus fucking Christ.
What are we gonna do?
The lying.
The lying and the lying.
And then it just explodeseventually and you can't hide it.
And you're throwing up cran-razvodka all over your mom's carpet.

Zoe (28:05):
Oh, yikes.

Heather (28:06):
I know.

Zoe (28:06):
And then do you have to clean it up?

Heather (28:07):
Yeah, of course.
I was gonna ask you, what did youdo to keep people from finding
out your addiction was so bad?
Were there things that you would do?

Zoe (28:15):
I mean, like, yeah, I would try to hide it.
Like I would have bottles in mypurse and after a certain point,
I couldn't hide it anymore.

Heather (28:25):
Bottles in your purse when?

Zoe (28:26):
I don't know, like on a day to day.

Heather (28:29):
Okay.
With like the mini bottles?
Okay.
So yours were always packing.

Zoe (28:33):
I was always packed and I would drink everything, so it didn't
matter to me what I was drinking.
It just in certain situations, itmattered how small the bottle was and if
it was gonna get me drunk fast enough.

Heather (28:45):
I don't know why I didn't do that.
I think I just liked the slow burnof getting fucked up on my couch.
I don't know.

Zoe (28:51):
Well, I did keep going out, like I was out and about all the time.
So I had to keep it on me.

Heather (28:58):
That's true.
Now that we're seven episodes in, it'sobviously not a medical list, but I
do wanna kind of go over the thingsthat make you an alcoholic or make me
an alcoholic, make you an alcoholic.
And of course everyone's addictionis different, but these are like

(29:21):
the things that probably doctorsdon't tell you to look for.
And then also what your family andfriends should be looking out for.
Writing that down, being like,what should other people look for?
I feel like such a fucking snitch.
Like when I, when my friend relapsed and Iwent to her house and I found her bottles
in the sneakiest fucking places, therewas a part of me that like didn't wanna

(29:43):
tell her husband where those bottles were.
Because I felt like I was betraying her.
I did.
I was like, I get it.
We both have this disease.
I know what you need rightnow and it's your alcohol.
So I like obviously had to tell him.
But I do feel like a narc.
I'm like, I'm sorry I'm about to out you.

Zoe (29:59):
I know.
But I think that she wouldunderstand after it's for the bus.
And she could always findother spots, you know.

Heather (30:05):
Oh she's a real sneaky weasel that one.

Zoe (30:07):
We're all sneaky weasels.

Heather (30:08):
True.

Zoe (30:08):
If you rat me out on one spot, I'm gonna just find another spot.

Heather (30:11):
She's actually, the reason I say sneaky weasel.

Zoe (30:13):
Oh, is she?

Heather (30:14):
'Cause when we were in rehab.
That's what she would say.
'cause her husband would call her asneaky weasel because she would like
climb out the bathroom window and likearmy crawl around her house to avoid
the cameras, to like get to the alcohol.

Zoe (30:27):
I love that.

Heather (30:28):
I know.

Zoe (30:29):
Good for her.

Heather (30:30):
I say addicts are not lazy people.
They are the hardest workinghustlers in the world.
There are literally alwaysfiguring out how to survive.

Zoe (30:38):
Am I An Alcoholic 101?
With Heather and Zoe.

Heather (30:41):
With Heather and Zoe.
And if you have all any of these,you're an alcoholic and you should
put your pen down and go to rehab.

Zoe (30:46):
And we're diagnosing you right now.

Heather (30:48):
Number one.

Zoe (30:50):
Okay.
Number one let's go on a list.

Heather (30:52):
Am I an alcoholic: quantity and time spent drinking.
I think that that is obviouslya dead giveaway for yourself.

Zoe (31:02):
I think when you start drinking alone is an iffy battle because even
if you're drinking alone, havinglike one glass of wine to celebrate
the end of the day it's iffy.
'Cause I feel it can turn into multiplereal quick or you can just be relying on

(31:23):
that and thinking about that glass of wineat the end of the day for the whole day.
And everything you're doing is for that.

Heather (31:30):
Yes.

Zoe (31:30):
You shouldn't be living your life for a glass of wine for something that's
going to ease your pain temporarily.

Heather (31:37):
That's actually a great point, Zoza 'cause I think
that's how I started drinking.
It was like the art thingto do at the end of the day.
We danced all day.
We came home, we gotdrunk, or they had wine.
And then even when I starteddrinking on my own, I was like,
this is an art thing to do.

Zoe (31:50):
It's just gonna be one.
It's not gonna be a problem until oneday you wake up and you're like, oh wait.
It is a problem.

Heather (31:57):
But you're right, you're right.
When you say that, like you're, even ifyou're having one glass of wine at the
end of the day, it's like, yeah, but whathave you been thinking about all day?

Zoe (32:04):
Yeah, exactly.
And that's the point.
If you're thinking about it allday then you have the problem.
If you're not thinking about it all dayand you just happen to have a glass of
wine every day, then I think you're fine.

Heather (32:14):
I do too.
And I think it also bringsup your rising tolerance.

Zoe (32:19):
And that, and that's why having one a day can quickly lead to two to five a day.

Heather (32:24):
'Cause you always hear people too, saying like, oh my God,
when I started drinking like this,like vodka would make me throw up.
Or like now I have like three glassesof wine and I don't get drunk.
Or I can drink one and drive home.
Like, there's always more that you can do.
Or like you'll, again, you'll pushyour limits even in weird ways.
Do you think that people have anawareness of their relationship

(32:45):
with alcohol on average?

Zoe (32:46):
I don't think so.
And I think that if you're notan alcoholic and you're listening
to this, like maybe that's justwhat you're gonna get out of it.
You're gonna be able to look at your owndrinking and recognize the patterns that
you see and if they're healthy or not.
Because I think that a lot of peoplejust go to their day-to-day lives,
not thinking their relationship withalcohol and it can be really unhealthy

(33:08):
and sometimes people don't even know it.

Heather (33:10):
I think that's a big thing.
Like reflecting, we have toreflect because we're sober.
But you don't have to do that untilyou get sick or something happens.

Zoe (33:20):
If you can reflect now and you're not an alcoholic, then that's
gonna be easier for you in thefuture and you can continue to drink.

Heather (33:26):
But when the whole world and media tells you to go home at the end of
the day and have a glass of wine and putyour feet up and relax, it's like I'm
now supposed to switch my mentality tobe like, no, that's actually problematic.
That's a bad message.

Zoe (33:38):
It is problematic and it is a bad message.
Okay.
Gimme another.

Heather (33:44):
Emotional drinking.
This goes back.
A lot of these like connect to each other,but being reflective about your drinking.
When are you drinking?
Why are you drinking?
If you're often drinkingbecause you're sad.
If you're often sadbecause of your drinking.
If you're often depressed, it is a cycle.
Alcohol is a depressant.
It's a very serious depressant.
And when you feel, like whenyou're drinking, it's like

(34:08):
validating your feelings.
You wanna drink more.
So I would just urge people toreally think about when and why.
And if you're in a situation whereyou are sad or anxious or nervous
and you're like, I wanna drink-

Zoe (34:21):
Sit with those feelings instead.

Heather (34:22):
Yeah.
For a sec. Maybe pushyourself, try an hour.
Be like, if in an hour from now I stillreally need a drink- 'cause I bet you,
I bet you a lot of times you're drinkingbecause you think you're supposed to,
or you think you have to, or it's theonly thing you have, or it's the only
thing you've been thinking about.
When you get cravings and you pick upanother drink, like a non-alcoholic

(34:44):
drink, sometimes it really helps.
You just need to bedoing the ritual of it.

Zoe (34:48):
Exactly.
And it is just a fleeting thought too.
If you think of it as a fleetingthought, then it will go away.
If you marinate on it, it's gonna stick.

Heather (35:00):
I mean, it's fleeting for me now, 'cause I'm two years sober.
It definitely wouldn't havebeen fleeting for me back then.
But I was already way too far in it.
I never reflected on drinkingbefore, so I didn't know.

Zoe (35:10):
And at that point in my time, I was just accepting that I was
an alcoholic and I was gonna die.
So it didn't really matterfor me to be reflective.

Heather (35:18):
That's really what you were thinking?
You were like, I, thiswill kill me one day?

Zoe (35:22):
Yeah.

Heather (35:22):
Really?
How did you think you were gonna die?

Zoe (35:25):
Just like wake up one morning, dead.

Heather (35:26):
Wake up dead?

Zoe (35:27):
Waking up, dead in my puke.

Heather (35:28):
What a phenomenon.
Just wake up and look at yourself.
You're dead.

Zoe (35:32):
No, literally I thought that that would happen.
I, my ghost would belike, oh shit, you did it.
Even now I wake up sometimes andI'm like, oh, wait, am I alive?
Like I, I, I really do sometimesthink that this is all a dream
and I did die three years ago.

Heather (35:50):
Oh my God.
That is so scary Zoe.

Zoe (35:53):
Yeah, I know that.

Heather (35:54):
But that's how I feel when I think that I'm worried that
I'm insane, I'm in an institu.
Dragging around a, a tissue box.
And I think it's my dog, Nike, andI'm talking to you having a podcast,
but you're just a social worker.
Like that's my fear.

Zoe (36:10):
I a hundred percent.

Heather (36:13):
This is a big one everybody.
Thinking about your next drinkbefore you're done, your first one.
For me, that's huge.
That was like, I couldn't be drinkinga glass of wine if I knew that there
wasn't any more alcohol in the fridge.
Can't do it.
I need there to be anabundance of alcohol around me.

(36:34):
Did you have that panic?
Did you get the one drinkpanic where you're like, oh
my God, where's my next one?

Zoe (36:39):
Even when like I was at a bar and I was done, my first one, I
would be so anxious that the serverwasn't coming around instantly.
You know?

Heather (36:49):
Yes.

Zoe (36:49):
Or if it was taking forever for them to notice me at the bar, like
it was almost like we remember thatvideo we were talking about the TikTok,
or like I was shaking until I got mynext drink and that's why I did like
carrying around my own booze becauseI could drink whenever I wanted to.

Heather (37:04):
Well, it makes you feel safer because you don't
have to wait on anybody else.

Zoe (37:07):
Exactly.

Heather (37:08):
Also, that would happen at restaurants.
I was worried that they would cut me off.
Or like when I was flying, think aboutflying is they like really liquor you up.
But I was always worried that theflight attendants were gonna come
around and be like, that's plenty dear.

Zoe (37:20):
No, I almost didn't make it to Australia.
They almost didn't let me on the flight.

Heather (37:23):
Oh my.

Zoe (37:23):
So I was so drunk.

Guest (37:24):
Oh my god.
Okay.
Tell that story.

Zoe (37:27):
So I was drinking at the airport in Toronto and I was going on a flight
to Vancouver and then from VancouverI was gonna go to Australia by the
time I got to Vancouver, ooh, I was.
Wasted.
I probably had a couple drinksbefore I left for the airport.
I probably had a fewdrinks at the airport.

(37:48):
I actually couldn't even pay mybill at the airport restaurant.

Heather (37:52):
Oh my God.

Zoe (37:52):
Because none of my cards were working.
I was such a drunk mess.

Heather (37:55):
And you were on your way to Australia?
And your cards weren't working.

Zoe (37:58):
And my cards weren't working.

Heather (37:59):
Oh my God.

Zoe (38:00):
And some random guy paid for my bill.
It was like $90 of booze.

Heather (38:05):
Nice.

Zoe (38:05):
And thank God for that man.

Heather (38:07):
Did you ask someone to pay?

Zoe (38:09):
I was literally having a full mental breakdown in that restaurant.

Heather (38:11):
Oh my God.

Zoe (38:11):
And that guy just saved my life.
Horrible.
Horrible.
And then I go on the plane, I'm likechatting with this fucking guy sitting
beside me being an obnoxious freak.
I keep drinking on the flight with him.

Heather (38:25):
He was drinking?

Zoe (38:26):
I think so.
Okay.
I must have passed out.
Knocked out.
Woke up in Vancouver and they werelike, you need to sober up, or You're
not allowed on the next flight.
Like, we're bringing you to the gateand you're not allowed to drink anymore.
You don't agree to this,then you're kicked off.

Heather (38:41):
Did something happen on the plane?

Zoe (38:43):
I don't know.
Maybe.

Heather (38:44):
Okay.

Zoe (38:45):
Maybe.

Heather (38:45):
Because were you, did you wake up in your chair and they were saying that?

Zoe (38:48):
Yeah.

Heather (38:49):
Holy fuck.

Zoe (38:51):
I don't think I did anything crazy.
I think I was just anoticeable drunk mess.
They had to like walk me to thegate and I had to promise them
that I wasn't gonna drink anymore.
And then on the flight fromVancouver to Australia, I literally
slept the whole entire time.

Heather (39:07):
Really?
And you didn't drink on that plane?

Zoe (39:08):
It's like 11 hours.
No, I couldn't, 'cause I was notallowed and I was asleep the whole time.

Heather (39:12):
Yeah, but did the new flight attendants know you couldn't

Zoe (39:13):
No.
They spoke to the new flight attendants.
No, it was very serious.

Heather (39:17):
Oh my God.
That's so crazy, Zoe.

Zoe (39:19):
I know.

Heather (39:20):
Whoa.
I think to go along with this for otherpeople on the outside, if you notice
that your friends or family memberscan't do something or go somewhere
without a drink, like can't go to dinner.
That's a hard one 'cause a lot of people,but no, no, actually it's normal to go
to dinner without a drink, by the way.
That's something new that I've learned.
But not everybody drinks at dinner.

Zoe (39:40):
But you can also like test them to like take them out for brunch and see
if they'll still want a mimosa then.
You know?

Heather (39:46):
But testing of it all.
I always think of KristenDoute from Vanderpump Rules.
If you watch the seasons back, itmakes my heart beat really fast
because it gives me that anxious,like internal clock is moving.
Anytime she goes to someone'shouse, she's like, are we drinking?
Or she'll like wait for someoneto ask if, if we're drinking and
she'll be the first one to stand up.
Like you can see it in her body.

(40:08):
Not even in her eyes.
Just her body.
She like needs to be drinking.
And if like someone says somethingabout not drinking or feeling too
hungover or like, oh, I have todo something today, I can't drink.
You can see her be like, oh fuck.
Like how am I gonna, 'cause thatwould've been me if we went to brunch
and you guys were like, I'm not drinkingI'd be like, so I'll be drinking
in the bathroom with a stranger?

(40:28):
Like, or I'll be at thebar like, I don't know.

Zoe (40:31):
I think I would just still like order mimosa and don't
care if they judge me or not.

Heather (40:36):
The next one is, are you constantly telling yourself to cut back?

Zoe (40:39):
Yes.

Heather (40:40):
For me, I tried to quit every single morning
and was drinking by 8:00 AM.

Zoe (40:45):
I don't think I had ever wanted to quit, quit.
I would always just be like, Hey,I need to be sober for today to
like apologize to everybody andthen I can be drunk tomorrow.

Heather (40:56):
So many excuses.
So many like-

Zoe (40:59):
Or like, it's gonna be different next time I drink.
I'm not gonna drink like that ever again.

Heather (41:03):
Did you believe yourself?

Zoe (41:05):
No.

Heather (41:05):
No.
I sometimes I really, no, because evenwhen I was in New York with my ex and
he had kind of, well, no, he didn'tthink I had slowed down by that point,
but he was like telling me to quit,and I was looking at him in the eyes
earnestly being like, I'm so sorry.
I, I'm so sorry for what I did.

(41:27):
But I knew I was like, I'm not gonna stop.
Like, I'm not gonna fucking stop.
He is crying right nowtelling me to stop drinking.
And I am looking at him being like,I'm so sorry that this is happening
to you but I am going downstairsafter this conversation to pretend
to work on real estate and I'mgoing to get a full bottle of wine.

Zoe (41:45):
No, I feel, I feel that.
When I was still in school at uni, atRyerson I definitely was trying more
to stop drinking the way that I was.
I was trying to kind of likedo the harm reduction model.

Heather (42:03):
And what did that mean?
Did that mean like, were at that point,were you drinking during the day?

Zoe (42:06):
Well, yeah, and I was like going to therapy and I was going to CAMH and
I was trying to manage my drinking.

Heather (42:12):
What were you doing at CAMH?

Zoe (42:13):
Like seeing psychologists or whatever they do.

Heather (42:18):
Okay.
Were you in group classesor anything there?

Zoe (42:20):
No, I just did individual.
I only did it for like maybe a fewmonths and like I saw a therapist at
school, my friend got me a therapist.
I was trying to controlmy drinking at that point.
And then I think when Covid happened, Ikind of embraced it more to be like, I
tried for a couple years to slow back.
It didn't work.
Let's go all in on this.

Heather (42:41):
And this is such an interesting conversation because
at CAMH were they kind ofmodeling a harm reduction?

Zoe (42:50):
I think they were.
I never remember being like,I'm gonna be try to be sober.
It was always like, I'm gonnatry to control my drinking.

Heather (42:57):
See, and this is what I find so interesting.
You're a person who is like,I'm fully an alcoholic.
I wanna control my, or maybenot at that point, but like-

Zoe (43:05):
I don't think I could.
I think I was lying tothe therapist at CAMH.

Heather (43:08):
Sure.

Zoe (43:08):
I don't know what I was saying, but they should have been able to
tell like, yo, you're an alcoholic.
You need to stop.

Heather (43:14):
But I don't think that that is what people wanna say.
People are never gonnaforce you to be sober.
If they're pushing a harm reduction modelthat makes sense to me for some people.
But what's funny is that you're sittinghere saying, I'm fully an alcoholic.
I couldn't control my drinking, butI was trying to control my drinking.
So that makes me feel like someonewould set you up for a harm reduction

(43:35):
model, even though you can't do that.

Zoe (43:39):
But maybe I was telling them, yo, I can't live without this.
You know?
I don't wanna be sober.
I wanna control it.
So maybe that's when they werelike, okay, let's try to do it.

Heather (43:50):
Do you think that there was any possible way of
you controlling your alcohol?

Zoe (43:55):
No.

Heather (43:55):
Okay.

Zoe (43:55):
If there was, I would've figured it out because-

Heather (43:58):
Fuck, yeah.

Zoe (43:58):
I don't wanna give it up.

Heather (44:00):
No.

Zoe (44:00):
That was the last thing I wanted to do.

Heather (44:02):
I really loved that.

Zoe (44:03):
Trust me, I tried so hard to control my drinking.

Heather (44:07):
And what would happen?

Zoe (44:09):
I would.
Control it for a few days.
And then I would not.

Heather (44:13):
Would you still be drinking those few days?

Zoe (44:14):
Yeah.

Heather (44:15):
Just less.

Zoe (44:15):
I'd be like, okay, I did, I only drank six beers today.
I'm great.
I can do it.
Next day I would just have like acouple shots, one bottle of wine.
It's fine.
And then the next day I would goall out and get hammered and wake
up in the middle of the street.

Heather (44:30):
You were also in a difficult situation for your addiction because
you were at school and you had somany friends and you were active
and you were out doing stuff.
Whereas like I was at home.
I mean, there was a point where I wasat work, but I was at home so much.
So the cutting back didn't really haveto happen 'cause I didn't have to do
it for somebody else or so that otherpeople would know I was cutting back.

(44:52):
So the pressure on you is much higher'cause everyone was watching you.

Zoe (44:56):
And like I said, I wasn't that great at hiding it.

Heather (45:01):
Do you need alcohol to go out?
That's a huge one.

Zoe (45:04):
I don't think I ever went out without drinking.

Heather (45:07):
No.
I was like, if I'm going on a date, ifI'm going to get my nails done, if I'm
getting a massage, that's funny 'causeif you drink and then you get a massage
and that releases all that lactic acidinto your body, you feel fucking nuts.
That was not great.

Zoe (45:19):
I wanna do that.

Heather (45:20):
You know?
It doesn't actually feel good.
It kind of feels like you're wakingup from a nap and you're hungover.

Zoe (45:25):
Oh.

Heather (45:25):
But whatever.
I didn't have a choice.
I had to be drunk all the time.
I think getting into the habit of likepre-drinking that's another thing.
That is, it's like set up for us.
It's like you don't have tofeel nervous before you go out
because we're pre-drinking.
That's fun.
We're gonna go meet a guyor we're gonna go to a club.
The pre-drinking of it all is like a highschool thing and it's not meant to be

(45:46):
brought over for your like pre going out.

Zoe (45:50):
You're not supposed to be pre-ing before a date.
You're not supposed to bepree-ing before you're meeting
up with your friends to drink.
Why do you need to be drunkto go to the function?

Heather (46:00):
You really don't need to be.
And if you are, you have to lookat yourself 'cause it's bad.
And sometimes I didn't thinkthat things I was doing were bad.
Like showing up to a dinner already drunk.
I'm like, well, we're gonna be drinking.
That was like fine to me.
And now I'm like, oh my God.
Imagine if my sister just showed up,like I would show up to her house.
Wasted holding a bottle of wine.

(46:21):
Like that's insane behavior.

Zoe (46:24):
Oh my god.
A boy that I had over like a year ago nowhe showed up to my house, wasted with a
bottle of liquor, fully knowing I'm sober.

Heather (46:33):
He knew that?

Zoe (46:33):
Yeah.
Insanity, eh?

Heather (46:35):
It is.
I don't really know what that is.

Zoe (46:38):
Well, he's an addict.

Heather (46:39):
I know, but that's a person who like doesn't feel the need to hide it.

Zoe (46:44):
No, I think you were trying to maybe hide it more than I was.
I think I was more like, okay, it's fine.
I'm an addict.
I admit it to people.
And so I would show up to placeswith shit more openly 'cause I
was, I was accepted of it morethan I feel like maybe you were.

Heather (47:02):
I was just so ashamed of it all the time.
I was like sitting in my house doingnothing, watching the world go by.
Getting fat and I was like, this isthe worst thing that could ever be
happening to me and I can't stop it.
I didn't have friends.
I, I wasn't, it wasn't likemy life was still going on.

(47:23):
And, you know, it wasn't,it was at a complete halt.
So, like, the shame I had towards thatand being like, I just, I was a dancer.
I'm gonna always go back to that.
But I was a dancer my whole life.
Super fucking active.
Always on the move.
And now I'm sitting here doing nothing.
And I don't know what I'm ever gonna do.
And that's scary.
So fucking scary.

(47:43):
And I, that's why I had to drink'cause I was like, if I sit here
and think about it, I'm gonnacry and I'm going to kill myself.
So I'll just drink and I'lllet alcohol do that for me.

Zoe (47:55):
Did you ever think about killing yourself?

Heather (47:56):
Yeah all the time.

Zoe (47:57):
How would you do it?

Heather (48:00):
Probably pills.
Or I would, I just didn't know how.
I, I feel like when you actually-

Zoe (48:04):
Were you scared to actually do it?

Heather (48:05):
Terrified.
Absolutely terrified but sometimesI was more terrified to be alive.
I just couldn't have my sisterwalk into my house with her
spar key and see me dead.
I couldn't, I could not do that.
But I never really wanted to die.
That's why I was drinking.
I like wanted to just dissociate.
Like, I wanna be here.

(48:26):
I just don't wanna be here inthe way that I'm doing it now.
And I don't know another way Idon't know how to get out of it.
Another one on the list, I wouldsay is what we've already talked
about, but lying about your drinking.

Zoe (48:38):
Yes.

Heather (48:39):
And this can start in micro ways, like, have you already had a drink?
No.
Do you want a drink?

Zoe (48:44):
If everyone's drinking sure.

Heather (48:46):
The lying about your drinking, the lying, how much you've had, if
you're drinking when you go homeafter, I don't know, little things.
I remember there were like shots on acounter and I had had three and there
was like one for everyone and someonewas like, wait, did we pour enough?
I was like, oh, I, I guess not.
Ah.
I'm like, well, yeah,you're just lying about it.

Zoe (49:07):
That reminded me.
I would do this all the time, but ifI saw drinks that were not like fully
drank, went at bars, at restaurants-

Heather (49:17):
Oh my God.

Zoe (49:18):
I would drink them.

Heather (49:19):
Oh, that's so dangerous.

Zoe (49:19):
Yeah, I would do that all the time.

Heather (49:20):
Have you been roof feeded?

Zoe (49:22):
No, I don't think so.

Heather (49:23):
Wow.

Zoe (49:23):
But who knows?
I could have been.

Heather (49:25):
I've been roofed twice.

Zoe (49:25):
Whoa.

Heather (49:27):
The first time with my friend Jackie, we were in Manhattan
in SoHo and then in the meatpacking district with my friend.

Zoe (49:37):
So what happened?
You just like got reallyfucked and you had to go home?
Or what did they take it?
Like what did they do?

Heather (49:42):
At that time, when I was living in New York, I think
that was my first year there.
So I wasn't drinking that much.
Like I was drinking.

Zoe (49:48):
So you noticed that you were, oh, roofied.

Heather (49:50):
Zoe this is not even being drunk at all.
This is like, Jackie and I both hadlike one or two glasses of wine each
over the span of like three hours.
We were just chatting and thenour bartender gave us a shot.
And it looked like one ofthose like blue, white, and red
popsicles and it was so good.
And then Jackie was like, waitcan you make a drink like that?

(50:13):
Like an actual drink.
And he was like, yeah and mindyou, that's only like we've had
two glasses of wine, a shot.
That's three drinks inthe span of three hours.
That's nothing.
And then we had a drink andthen everything got crazy.

Zoe (50:28):
So you think the bartender did it?

Heather (50:29):
A thousand percent.
I was fucked up as if I had had a bottleof absinthe and I was hallucinating.
And I was moving like, you knowwhen you're in a dream and you
can't run, you can't move quickly?
I was moving like that.

Zoe (50:41):
Why did this bartender wanna drug you guys?

Heather (50:43):
I don't know because I asked him at one point, it was
probably like 8:00 PM and I waslike, what time do you get off work?
This was before we were drunk.
And he said, 2:00 AM.
And I said, oh, that's way too late.
Then we got roofied.
And I made it home.
Jackie put me in an Uber and I was asleepin the Uber and he woke me up and we
got home and I walked up five flightsof stairs and woke up in my boots.

(51:05):
I do not remember any of that.
Then the second time was at this barcalled Drunken Monkey, and my friend Jenna
and I were dancing and we left our drinks.
And we both started tofeel real fucked up.
We only had one drink each.
We started to feel real fucked upand we both looked at each other
and we were like, we gotta go.
And then we got home and thenwe woke up like 14 hours later.

Zoe (51:23):
Wow.
Lucky.

Heather (51:25):
I just like the fact that you could go to an establishment
and the person behind the bar-

Zoe (51:31):
that makes me like, not like trust bartenders.

Heather (51:34):
No.
And by the way, you shouldn't.
Because anywhere you go, just because aperson is like authority or a person works
there doesn't mean they're a good person.

Zoe (51:44):
And that brings it back to like now when I order anything at the bar, I
always watch what they're doing and watchwhat they're pouring into that drink.
And if you are drinking, youshould be watching what they're
pouring into that drink.

Heather (51:58):
Absolutely.
Tell 'em to drink it first.

Zoe (52:00):
I am looking out for what they're putting in for my sobriety.
You should be looking out forwhat they're putting in for your-

Heather (52:07):
life.

Zoe (52:07):
For your life.

Heather (52:14):
Now that we are sober, we do see the world a little darker,
which is true 'cause it's justit, we, we see for one of we is-

Zoe (52:21):
With open eyes.

Heather (52:22):
We've been in situations that are dangerous and now we're
like, that was on you, babe.
I think for the spouse or theloved one or the friend this
is where it gets difficult.
Because you, if you live with theperson, you know what they're like,
you know that something's off.
You know that there'ssneaky shit going on.
There's a weird behavior change.

(52:42):
I have a friend who like knowswhen his wife is gonna relapse
because she's acting weird.
And he can't even reallyexplain what that means.
And when he would tell it, sayit to me, I'm like, oh, 'cause
she's probably already drunk.
And he's like, no, no.
It didn't start till like the next day.
And I'm like okay, maybe that's true,but like, you know, you trust your gut.
You know when your people are beingsneaky, but it's so hard 'cause

(53:05):
you don't wanna call someone out onit 'cause they're gonna freak out.
If they're an addict and they'relying about their alcohol,
they're gonna yell in your face.

Zoe (53:12):
And you do not want an addict to yell in your face.

Heather (53:14):
No.
No.
Because it's hard.
It's hard to call somebodyout on their behavior.
Most of the time people know.
And it's like-

Zoe (53:22):
and they don't wanna be told.

Heather (53:24):
What am I, I gonna say like, am I gonna say you're drinking too much?
I know you're drinking.
That's what my ex used to do.
He'd be like, are you fucking drunk?
It's 9:00 AM And I'd be like, no.
Or I would like get, I would get upearly, I would like take a shot of gin
and then get back into bed and he'dbe like, you smell like alcohol and
I'm like, no, I just brushed my teeth.

Zoe (53:41):
We're bad liars.

Heather (53:43):
That's a lie.

Zoe (53:44):
Bad, bad.

Heather (53:45):
What would you say, like if somebody, you suspect someone has a
drinking problem, do you think it'sas a loved one, or a friend, do you
think it's on you to say somethingas you as a sober person now?
Like what do you think?

Zoe (54:01):
I think that, you know, if they do.

Heather (54:05):
Yeah.

Zoe (54:06):
I think they will come to you when they're ready.

Heather (54:09):
Okay.

Zoe (54:09):
I think you can like hint around the fact that, you know and they'll understand
like, we're not stupid, you know?
I don't think you have to belike, I know you're an alcoholic!
But
that's really aggressive.

Heather (54:26):
I know you drink too much!

Zoe (54:28):
Stop drinking!

Heather (54:29):
That Stanley is full of wine!

Zoe (54:31):
Gimme some!

Heather (54:32):
Every time I try to get a bottle of water in this
house, it's full of vodka.
Cut down, man, Heather.

Zoe (54:38):
No, but I think that you, I think as a loved one, you can acknowledge that,
you know that they're hurting, you know?
I don't think it's, it doesn't feel rightto sneak around and act like everything's
kosher when you know it's not.
It gives the addictspace to open up to you.
Because they know that, you know.

Heather (54:58):
I wasn't gonna go to rehab.
I wasn't gonna get clean until Iwanted to or I really was like, ready.

Zoe (55:03):
It's just nice to like know that there's someone to talk to
about it if and when you're ready to.

Heather (55:10):
I didn't have anyone that I was like, I didn't tell anyone, like, oh,
I'm really struggling with my alcohol.
People knew, but I wasnever gonna admit that.
It might might've been niceto just be honest 'cause
there was just so much lying.
Your friends that are doingdrugs or drinking are probably
going to the bathroom a lot.
I had a friend recently say to me,I don't know, we went out with this

(55:33):
guy and his brother and his brotherjust like, was always in the bathroom.
Like he kept going to the bathroom andI was like, does he have like diarrhea?
And I was like, no, he's doing coke.
No, he's in the bathroom doing coke.

Zoe (55:43):
No.
And I realized that when I first gotsober and started going out with my
friends, I realized that the people thatI'm going out with, the ones who are
drinking half of the time, is spent atthe bar waiting for the bartender to come.
And the other half is going to thebathroom because A, you're doing
drugs or B, you just have to peebecause you're drinking so much.

(56:04):
Honestly, that's when I started to likegoing out with that gay friend Brandon
of mine because he doesn't drink.
So.
All of our time can be on the dance floor.
And that's where I wannabe the whole night.
I don't want half of my timeto be waiting with my friends,
waiting for them to get a drink.
Or waiting in line for the bathroombecause they have to go at least
three times when we're out.
I need to go one time to the bathroomwhen I go out and once to get a drink.

(56:28):
And it's a waste of my night now.
I wanna be on the dance floorfor at least 90% of the time.

Heather (56:33):
Well, that's the thing, going out now isn't an excuse for you to drink.
It's an excuse for you to have fun.

Zoe (56:38):
I wanna be on the dance floor shaking ass.

Heather (56:40):
You're going for what's intended which is really nice.

Zoe (56:43):
I'm not going there to be at the bar or being in the bathroom.

Heather (56:45):
And when you go to functions like that and you're in your addiction,
you really take those moments to let yourfreak flag fly and drink as much as you
fucking want because everyone else is.
So it's like tonightyou're not the problem.
Everyone's the problem.

Zoe (56:57):
And also looking back on it, it's like that's why I had no
fun, because I was always waitingfor a drink or in the bathroom.
I was maybe on the dancefloor for 20% of the night.
Other than that, I wasgoing outside smoking.
My ritual was probably go outside,smoke, get a drink, go to the
bathroom, go outside, smoke,get a drink, go to the bathroom.
The dance floor was never seen.

Heather (57:16):
Yeah.

Zoe (57:17):
The interactions with people and actually socializing,
having a good time or never seen.

Heather (57:24):
The next one, I would say would be blacking out,
forgetting pieces of your night.
That's really problematic.

Zoe (57:30):
I was blacking out the first, like, I think the second
time I drank, I black out.

Heather (57:34):
Really?
Okay.
You started hard.

Zoe (57:36):
And I was chasing the blackout.
I think that's what I was doing.

Heather (57:39):
Really?

Zoe (57:39):
Yeah.
Were you chasing the blackout?

Heather (57:42):
No, I just wanted to be as drunk as long as possible.
And then drift into sleep.
I also, I think I forgot a lot ofstuff because I was drunk also just
because if you never stop drinking,your brain is like sitting in alcohol.
It's like, just don't know thatanything was really registering.

Zoe (57:58):
I don't know.
It just like sucks that I don'tremember any of those nights, you know?
And that's where it gets scarytoo, if you don't remember.

Heather (58:08):
There is gonna be something that happens to you if you keep drinking
the way you're drinking, something'sgonna happen and you're gonna be like,
oh fuck, I don't remember what happened.
And it's gonna be a dangerous thing.

Zoe (58:19):
You're just like playing.
It's too risky.

Heather (58:21):
It's so risky.

Zoe (58:22):
It's so risky, and it's really not worth it.
And it's, it is naive to think likenothing will ever happen to you.

Heather (58:31):
Yes it is.
And when you mix alcohol and drugswith that, you really get confident.

Zoe (58:36):
Yeah, you do.
And I think that was my problem as well.
Like I was like, oh, I'm unstoppable.
No one can fuck with me.

Heather (58:42):
You're also a perfect victim when you're vulnerable like that.

Zoe (58:45):
And I did, I loved playing the victim.

Heather (58:47):
Oh yeah.
I played it for a while.
Fucking up any part of yourlife, that's a big one.
People like to pretend it's not happening.

Zoe (58:56):
I used to like pretend that like it didn't matter, like when
I was losing my jobs and shit.

Heather (59:01):
I think there's a lot of things that I did that I fucked
up because of drinking and I just,

Zoe (59:07):
And we're still paying the price-

Heather (59:09):
Yes.

Zoe (59:09):
To this day, you know?

Heather (59:11):
What other people can look out for is things like neglecting your
responsibilities, people having financialissues, changing your appearance,
things like that to really look out for.
It's not gonna be super obvious everysingle time, but but it does happen.
I mean, all I was sofinancially like I was broke.
I was spending all of my money on alcoholand eventually that's what happens.

(59:31):
Everybody I know who's been in anaddiction, not everyone I know.
I know a few people who have spenttheir life savings or have spent
their savings for their renovations.
Shit like that.

Zoe (59:43):
Or like their parent dies, they get their inheritance and
they blow it away on cocaine.

Heather (59:47):
100000%.
They get themselves into these situationswhere it's like, now I'm an addict.
Now there's no going back.
Decline in mental health is a big one.

Zoe (01:00:00):
So this is interesting for me 'cause I always thought that
I was like depressed and anxiousand then I drank because of that.
But no, I was just depressed andanxious 'cause I was drinking.

Heather (01:00:13):
But when you got into drinking, you got into drinking
'cause you wanted to fit in.
So that is like.
I think that's a part of a-

Zoe (01:00:21):
part of it.
Yeah, that's true.

Heather (01:00:22):
You like wanna be what you wanna do, what everyone else is doing.
You found alcohol and you'relike, oh yeah, yeah, this is it.
It makes you feel good.
It makes you feel-

Zoe (01:00:29):
like a, I don't know.
I totally thought though, when I waslike in active addiction that I was
never gonna be mentally okay becauseI thought like I was too far done.
Like I thought that my brain waspermanently fucked and that I
could never be happy without it.

Heather (01:00:44):
Were you, you were depressed?

Zoe (01:00:47):
Yeah.

Heather (01:00:48):
Did you try to kill yourself or did you-

Zoe (01:00:49):
Yeah

Heather (01:00:49):
You tried?

Zoe (01:00:50):
I would come to from being blackout and like realize I was
standing on the railing of my balconyand I lived on the 46th floor.

Heather (01:00:59):
Can we just take a pause for that and like realize what Zoe just said.
Standing on the railing of yourbalcony in the middle of a blackout
coming to is literally insane.
It's crazy.
I'm so glad you're alive.
But when you would come to, would it bescary or were you were like, oh you again?

Zoe (01:01:15):
It would be scary and I remember like being like, okay, are we gonna do it?
And then like and like Idefinitely, there was one time
that I was going to, and I don'tknow what happened and I didn't.

Heather (01:01:29):
Wow.

Zoe (01:01:30):
But yeah, like every time I would end up at the hospital, I probably
ended up at the hospital 10 to 20 times.
I don't know.

Heather (01:01:37):
Were they nice to you or did they treat you like
shit, you were an alcoholic?

Zoe (01:01:40):
No, they treated like shit because I was an alcoholic.
But every time I would show up there,it was because like, either like my
friends or family or even my fuckingboss called the cop, like, called an
ambulance on me 'cause they thoughtI was gonna die or hurt myself 'cause
I would be, I always talked aboutwanting to kill myself when I got drunk.
It was like I alwayshad suicidal thoughts.

(01:02:01):
That's where my brainwould go a lot of the time.

Heather (01:02:05):
It's so sad.
It's so scary to be, I can like feelmyself in that place, like lying
in my bed, looking out the window,holding a bottle of wine and being
like, am I gonna do this forever?
I can't.
I can't do this.
Like I am gonna have to end it.

Zoe (01:02:19):
And it's crazy just to know that I was that down bad and I am so happy
and content with my life now, thank God.
So if you're in that down, downbad, it's possible to get out.

Heather (01:02:32):
It really is.
It is.
And it's crazy.

Zoe (01:02:34):
It's not like we're special.
Like it's not if we can do it, so can you.
And a lot of people that Iknow that didn't go to rehab,
like they can do it too.
You don't need to go torehab if you can't afford it.
It's just a luxury that weare, we're fortunate to do.

Heather (01:02:50):
Our very last one, and this is me and maybe you,
avoiding people who don't drink.

Zoe (01:02:56):
Mm.

Heather (01:02:57):
If you find yourself getting annoyed when people don't drink-

Zoe (01:03:01):
If you're annoyed with us right now talking about
being sober, then you're drunk.

Heather (01:03:04):
Then you're an absolute drunk.
I would find myself getting annoyedat my sister 'cause she would not
drink in the way I was drinking.
Anyone.
Or I'd go to dinner and I would have afriend be like, I'm not drinking tonight.
I'm like, are you fucking kidding?
That's why I'm out.

Zoe (01:03:18):
Well, I actually have a perfect example of this.
Oh.
So my friend that I would likeparty with, she would bring around
this girl and she never reallydrank, like me and my other friend.
And I was like, oh, likeI don't really like her.
She's like, not cool.
She's not fun.
She doesn't drink like us.
And now that I'm sober, I'mbest friends with that girl.
I'm going to meet up with her rightnow to go to the Toronto Vintage Show.

Heather (01:03:40):
Well, first of all, how dare you?
Best friends.
Okay.

Zoe (01:03:46):
I'm glad that we went through everything we went through.
It had to happen and we made it out alive.

Heather (01:03:52):
And if you listen to this podcast and you're questioning your own
relationship with alcohol or somebodyyou love, just know it is a journey.
Everything is on its own time.
It doesn't mean if you have any ofthese or you feel any of these, you have
to stop drinking today and that's it.
That's not what it means.
I would just urge every singleperson to reflect on their
relationship with alcohol.

(01:04:13):
Maybe test yourself a little bit.

Zoe (01:04:15):
Maybe journal about it.

Heather (01:04:16):
Maybe journal about it.
Me and Zoe love a journal.

Guest (01:04:19):
We love a journal entry.

Heather (01:04:20):
And you know, we're saying this from two people who've
been through all of these things.
And we're saying-

Zoe (01:04:25):
And on the, the extreme end of it.

Heather (01:04:27):
Yes.

Zoe (01:04:27):
Like you might be going through it.
You might have a few ofthese, but not to the extreme.
And like it's gonna be okay.
Like, just reflect and havea good relationship with
alcohol if you can't have one.
I'm

Heather (01:04:39):
proud of you.

Zoe (01:04:40):
Proud you.

Heather (01:04:41):
See ya
Thanks for listening to Girl, Undrunk.
You can follow us on Instagram andTikTok @girlundrunkpodcast or send me
an email at [e-mail].
Before we go, thank you to our amazingproducer, Ariane Michaud and support
from her team at Consciously Produced.

(01:05:02):
Martin Nunez-Bonilla for the graphics.
Ian Sit for setting up our sound,Daniel James for the music and
final edits, and Chelsea Neilanfor the transcript and show notes.
This podcast would notbe possible without you.
Hey

(01:05:24):
listeners,
if you're enjoying Girl, Undrunk,please do us a favor like, subscribe,
and most importantly, share thisepisode with someone you think
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Your support means everything and ithelps keep these conversations going.