Journalist and writer Kui Mwai joins Adelle for an unfiltered, deeply relatable conversation on adult friendships: why they end, how they evolve, and what it means to outgrow people you still love.
In this episode, they unpack:
✨ Why Kui revisited four former friendships for her viral Vogue article
✨ What really happens during friendship fallouts, guilt, anxiety, disappointment
✨ Why adult friendship feels so different from school-era connection
✨ The loneliness and emotional risk of solitude
✨ Navigating boundaries in a culture that isn’t always taught them
✨ The pain of friendships that “fizzle” with no explanation
✨ How to rebuild connection without losing yourself
✨ Why friendship seasons are normal and nothing is wrong with you
Kui also opens up about her writing journey, her upcoming novel, and what solitude taught her about inner strength. If you’ve ever questioned your friendships or felt guilty for choosing yourself, this episode will feel like a warm exhale.
LINKS
Newsletter signup: www.legallycluelessafrica.com/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/legallycluelessafrica/
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@legallycluelessafrica
YouTube: www.youtube.com/c/LegallyCluelessYoutube
Share your story: forms.gle/kMn7Wae5N563JFGQ8
In this episode, they unpack:
✨ Why Kui revisited four former friendships for her viral Vogue article
✨ What really happens during friendship fallouts, guilt, anxiety, disappointment
✨ Why adult friendship feels so different from school-era connection
✨ The loneliness and emotional risk of solitude
✨ Navigating boundaries in a culture that isn’t always taught them
✨ The pain of friendships that “fizzle” with no explanation
✨ How to rebuild connection without losing yourself
✨ Why friendship seasons are normal and nothing is wrong with you
Kui also opens up about her writing journey, her upcoming novel, and what solitude taught her about inner strength. If you’ve ever questioned your friendships or felt guilty for choosing yourself, this episode will feel like a warm exhale.
LINKS
Newsletter signup: www.legallycluelessafrica.com/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/legallycluelessafrica/
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@legallycluelessafrica
YouTube: www.youtube.com/c/LegallyCluelessYoutube
Share your story: forms.gle/kMn7Wae5N563JFGQ8
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to for Mannalist Women.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm your host Adela on Jangle, and this is a
space committed to naturing a new generation of shamefue women
who are ready to meet their best self. And in
this episode, we're unpacking friendship with journalists.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Koim Why, whose Vogue article.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
On why friendships Die went viral globally because so many
people connected with it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
So first and all, it's.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Great to finally meet you and I sit down with you.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I see all of the incredible stuff you do in
TikTok when it comes to reviewing films and also your
incredible articles as well. Thank you so thanks for making
time to be on for Manalist Women.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me. I love it here,
as you can tell by how I've just been chatting
away like we just have you here. Yeah, episodes just
have me here all the time. The term little segment.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Just like pop up.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yes, that's what I love to do.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
So there's one article that you wrote that really stands out,
and I think I can't remember the year you wrote it,
but people keep going back to it and you wrote
it for Vogue.
Speaker 6 (01:15):
First and foremost, congratulations.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thank you so much. But the article is about friendship?
Can you unpack it? Especially for people who have not
read it and they don't know why it's like perpetually trending.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
First of all, thank you so much for all the
kind words.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I wrote it back in twenty thirteen, twenty twenty three,
not the same year, the same year.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
They all blend together after a while, don't they.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah, And essentially in it, I revisited for former friendships
and I asked those former friends, hey, why.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Did these relationships not work out?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
To hopefully learn something meaningful about friendships, especially in adult years.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It can be complicated, it can be weird, that can be.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hard to maintain, and I found myself at the time
really craving answers.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
So yeah, but we're better than to go.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
To the source that is so interesting. And it's true.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I love that you talk about adult friendships because you
never we don't go through the transition. Well, so, like
in primary school, high school, a lot of the work
around making friends is done for us.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Oh yeah, you're in the same setting.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Your parents are putting you guys together, like everything is dumpy,
and then you release into the world and it'say, how
do I maintain you.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Going through the same things At the same time, you
have all these different spaces where you can explore different interests,
all these things that help foster relationships, and then one
day you just leave school and it's over right, Like
you lose all of this infrastructure, and one of the
things to go, I think is healthy relationships, like and
it's really hard to maintain that without that sort of safety.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So tell me about the article.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, how did you What was it like making those calls?
Speaker 6 (02:46):
What any of the four friendship?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Did any of them end like on a bad note
or did they just fizzle out? What was the take
me through that experience of making those calls?
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Whoa making those calls? Not so fun? Everything? It came
together pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I had been pitching Vogue for a while, different sort
of iterations of what the article could look like.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
In the beginning, I had wanted to frame it around
wedding seasons.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
I think that weddings and sort of those milestones, those
adult milestones, they kind of put a weird perspective on relationships.
I found that when my friends were getting engaged and married,
it made me sort of like re examine my friendships
and reexamine where I was in my life in.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
A different way.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Anyways, they weren't interested, but I still felt very pulled
to have this conversation. And then yeah, just out of nowhere,
I was like, oh, like what if I actually was
in conversation with these former friends and wrote about the
experience And then they were saying yes very quickly, And
then I was.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Like, oh no, I would have to do this.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
So I reached out to a good amount of people.
I of course had a list in my mind right
of people, and they were a mix, right, Some of them
were more you know, there was more drama surrounded the
end of the friendships, but honestly, the majority of them
were just like fizzled, and weirdly enough, I felt more
nervous about those ones and I did the bad ones,
maybe because I had just assumed that they would like
say no, what a good amount of them did Buttuly,
(04:00):
a lot more people were more open to it than
I thought that they were, And so yeah, I think
the hardest part definitely was the initial reaching out, Like
that was really nerve.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Wracking because I was just like, hey, like, hi, friends
you ever heard from me? And a liar, like what
do you even call them? Like?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Hey, so and so we're so and so like it
felt weird, right, like what kind of language, what kind
of vernacular do you even use?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
So yeah, that was the hardest part.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
But I just was like listen, I just have to
like be honest, right and be like listen, like, this
is a crazy thing that I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
This is why I'm doing it.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Your privacy and your mental health are my top concerns.
So if you aren't comfortable doing this, that's totally fine.
If you are, here are the ways that I'll protect you.
And then really from there it was like, actually, okay,
the conversations themselves actually were like a lot less scary,
I think because I built it so much in my
head and there were you know, it took a lot
of time also too to like get back to people
and to find people.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
You know, yeah, I've been blocked.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Sometimes by being honest and also just like tracking down
people over losing contact over years, right like Instagram handles
change and things like that.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
So yeah, the.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Conversations themselves actually ended up being okay. And then the
right it came really organically from there.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Before we get to like what the conversations thoughts you Like,
you've said something that's so interesting. So you're looking for
someone and you realize that you're blocked.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
What are they?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
What are the emotions before you write the article? So
during your time when you're reaching out, what do some
of the emotions that you're faced with. So you realize
someone has blocked you, or you see someone and you
see they so many miles stones you have missed.
Speaker 6 (05:30):
Out of somebody who you used to be close to.
What are you feeling in that moment.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I think I felt a lot of guilt. I found
a lot of guilt about why the relations ended. And
I think I'm somebody who, like I already really struggle
with guilt, and I tend to feel like if something
has gone wrong, I do feel like I tend to
take like ninety percent of the blame, even though like
in most situations in life, right like it's a fifty
to fifty everybody has their role, but I always sort
of feel like I take a lot of responsibility for
my part. So I was very overwhelmed by guilt and
(05:58):
with every person that I reach out to, like those
guilty feelings kind.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Of came up to the surface. A big one was anxiety.
I really was. I was very nervous.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I was very much like oh my god, like how
do I have the audacity to do this, like of
just popping back into this person's life like I never
left and being like, hey, like do you want to
like air our dirty laundry out? Like for a good
amount of people.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
To read like hey, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
And then I felt like I was like, oh, like
am I being selfish? So those are kind of like
the thoughts that were circling through my head?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, And then afterwards, what did you learn about friendships?
Like what are the takeaways that you previously didn't have?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I think it was a really beautiful reminder that oftentimes
in life, when the way that we remember things, particularly
things that are negative, especially as it pertains to the
way relationships end with other platonic familial whether they're romantic,
I think that we always think that it was worse
than it really was. Of course, like in instance of abuse,
and those are different, Like I'm not talking about like
(06:54):
things like that. I'm talking more about like the everyday
sort of fallouts, right, Like it's usually not as bad
as you think that it is. And I think that
people are also more forgiving than you think that they are.
Like I was very surprised by how little animosity there
actually was on the other party side, you know, because
I'm really thinking that like, oh, like all of these
(07:14):
I messed up in X, Y and C. Ways I
didn't do X, Y and C. But like there's a
lot more understanding and there's a lot more fluidity I
think with friendships, right, Like I felt like I was
it was easier to slip back into a more like
friendly back and forth like dynamic. So yeah, I think
that really friendships are more fluid that I think that
we're told societally than they are.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, And I think it's like when something happens to you,
like it's over it. Yeah, it's terrible, it's over. Let's
not revisit when you go back. I guess, even like
with the gift of time, you're like, was it really
that bad?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah, did any of the friends that you spoke to?
Speaker 6 (07:52):
Did any of those friendships spuck up again?
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think I'm gonna
say no.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
One. Here's why.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
There's definitely like no love lost, right, like we are
still like there's still a lot of love there, there's
still a lot of connection there, but I think also
there's just like realities to like our lives now, right,
Like most of the people that I spoke with live
in the US. Obviously that's halfway around the world. There's
given me so many ways that we can stay close. Also,
just like a lot of time had passed for most
of those relationships, so obviously there's not gonna be a
(08:24):
full I don't want to say a full repair, but
like it can't be what it was, right, And I
struggled with that for a long time. I actually wrote
about it on my blog back African looking back on
it two years later, and I did really struggle with
a lot of disappointment, right because I do think that
like because the conversations were more positive than I thought
that they were going to be. I was like, oh
my god, like we're gonna be best friends again, Like yeah,
(08:45):
let's do it, Like let's go on the trips, let's
commit to facetimes, all of this stuff. But then you know,
life happens, and I had to sort of be like, yeah,
like this doesn't mean that there isn't still love there,
There isn't even still a friendship there.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
It's just not what it wasn't That's.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Okay, yeah, what's interesting and what I find difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Rather with friendships, I almost prefer friendships ending with a reason,
even if the reason that's painful, because then I'm like,
there was a reason. Yeah, maybe you acted, you know,
in a way that I didn't appreciate.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Maybe I acted in a way that you didn't like. Yeah,
there's a reason.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, rather than the ones that fizzle, oh yeah, or
the ones that you evolve past someone yeah and pasta friendship.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Have you experienced that, the evolving pastor friendship?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I would say the majority of my friendships, my friendship
breakups has.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Been like that.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
And you're right, like I do think it is more
painful because again it's like why why why why?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Why?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Right?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
And you you have such love for this person. It's
like it's like a romantic relationship. I think this is
where platonic and romantic relationships.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Really mirror each other.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Like, of course, like it's terrible to be cheated on,
it's terrible to get in like a fight with somebody,
but at least it's a tangible kind of thing that
you how to deal with it, right, Like you go
through your stages and if you warn it, you get
it all out and you move on. But when you're
still struggling with the why and you're not sure why
the separation has happened, that is way way, way more painful.
And it's a hard sort of reality that like most
(10:14):
of the times in life, people are only in your.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Life for a season.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Very rarely are they there for life, which is okay,
you know what I mean. I think it makes us
appreciate the lifelong relationships even more.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, do you think when we talk about like friendships
maybe being for a season and that being normal. Yes,
I first, you know, heard of this from my therapist. Yes,
And I remember she was saying she made a statement
that I was like, that's strange. She's like, yeah, if somebody,
if people tell me, oh, I've been friends with this
person for twenty thirty years, she always takes it with
(10:48):
a pinch of salts.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
She doesn't really believe it.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I was like, what do you mean, we're all
struggling to have those friendships that last. Ian's right, and
she was like, the amount of work it takes and
the seasons that you're each going.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Through, it's very difficult.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
It's very ye.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
And so what do you feel about some of the
expectations that are pushed on us when it comes to
female friendships, like they need to last. I've been friends
with Coy for twenty years. We go, as you're saying,
we have a FaceTime every month, Yep, we go on
a girls street every quarter, whatever it is, right, What
(11:28):
do you feel about these expectations and the pressures of
what female friendships should look like and how long they
should last.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
First of all, I think it's intermountable, and I think
it's really unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
I think if we're comparing inter generationally, like looking at
our like our parents' generation, they have kind of painted
this picture of like, oh my gosh, like this sort
of like steadfast, like continued threat of friendship that has
lasted from primary school to now.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Fifty sixty years.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Right of consistent showing up for people, consistent being close.
But like that's really not the reality of right, Like
life changes so much, and the more realistic picture of
French the ebb and flow, right, you go through different things,
maybe you get married at different points. Maybe some people
don't get buried, have kids, don't have kids, Like these
are all big things that affect our lives and they
affect the way that we relate to each other. I'm
(12:16):
really lucky that my mom has always been very honest
with me about sort of the ebbs and flows of
her life and how it's affected her relationships, especially her
platonic ones. And you know, when she got divorced, right like,
she was the only person in her friend group experiencing that,
so there was they couldn't relate to her friends count
really to what she was going through, right, So there
was a little bit of a separation there. But what
has been so nice to see is that now it's
been almost a decade plus since my parents got divorced,
(12:37):
now she's found a way back to some of those friendships.
They've been able to find new connections. So it is
really more of an ever evolving ebb and flow. It's
not this stagnant, completely calm waters. But again, like the
societal picture, isn't that, especially those especially for African women.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
The narrative is that we have to be so giving
to our communities, and that really to me, like it
starts with the family, and I think the next sort
of phase of that is friendships, right, like the external
sort of like tribe outside of the immediate family has
to be sort of served and appreciated as much as
the immediate family. But like girl who has had that,
(13:15):
who has time for a husband and years and work
and also yeah, and capitalism and what we owe to
ourselves as individuals. It's a lot that we are put
on ourselves. And even though those realities existed for our
mothers and our grandmothers, society hasn't shifted enough.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
On in Africa to be able to reflect that. In
terms of how.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
We look at women and relationships, we're still thought of
they have to be pillars, they have to be strong,
they have to maintain, and I just like, I'm over
it and.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
All the time these like all the time, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And I love what you're talking about in terms of
like externally, like you're just given and giving to all
of these relationships. Yes, but I don't think we actually
spend as much time in terms of our own relationship
itself now an identity. And so how do you balance
like in terms of the friendships that you have now
and showing up for them in a way that honors you, koy,
(14:11):
but also your relationship itself and your identity.
Speaker 6 (14:15):
So you don't get lost in your friends.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Can I be so honest?
Speaker 7 (14:18):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Right now, I don't think that I'm doing a great
job at it, Like I really don't think that I am.
I think that I am. I'm really accustomed to like
checking in on myself. I've spent a huge chunk of
my life alone. And that's not like in a negative way.
That's not like by trying to suggest any kind of neglect.
I've just like had a lot of like solo experiences,
whether it's like moving from here to the US for
(14:39):
college on my own, with like no family close to me.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
You know what I mean? After college, I mean to
Paris and I worked as no pair for a couple
of months. Don't speak French, don't know anybody in Paris.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I've had a lot of experiences where i'en on my own,
so I really know how to like serve myself. What
I'm now trying to figure out is, Okay, how do
I start to bring people banning in while still like
maintaining my boundaries. This is like no shade to my
beautiful Kenyan sisters out there. But I don't think that
we live in a culture that is very well versed
on boundaries. Something that I have really struggled with in
(15:08):
friendships here is trying to find a way to maintain
those connections while also being from and what my boundaries
are and where I am in my life. I think
a lot of times I feel isolated because of that. So,
to be totally honest with you, it's something that I'm
still trying to navigate. I'm still trying to find the
connections that I really want to invest in, and I'm
still trying to figure out, Okay, how do I invest
in them while still trying to te to myself while
(15:30):
not like insulting anybody or.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Isolating myself in the process.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
It's harder than I think anybody is really owning up to. Yeah,
totally honest, It's really hard, and there isn't a lot
of grace on either end, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I want to spend some time on the boundaries in
friendships because that is different.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
To get so madam, I'm gonna get really upset with
me because I'm not to be so honest, because it's.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Like the guilt that comes with setting boundaries in friendships, yeah,
is real, and you almost feel like you're going to
get what you've been socialized to believed again back to
like giving, give and giving.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
Friendship needs to look like yeah, and there's honestly, also.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
If we're being very honest, the way we're socialized is
I'm showing up for Coy, so that when I need
Coy to show up for me, right, And so when
you're boundary interacts that these are the feeling of like
what if I'm going to go through ABCD in.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Ten months, will she show up?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
What has the experience with boundaries been?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
How much time do we have?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
It's something that I do think stops me from pursuing
connections here because I really just feel like there isn't
I don't want to say that there's a lack of
an understanding, because I think that is condescending to like
our intelligence as the people like I think conceptually we
understand the concept of boundaries and why they're important.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
On the ground, though how doesn't show up.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
I think I feel like I get punished a lot
by the friends that I have because of my boundaries
or even just like my different lifestyle right Like I'm
a creative I have seventeen jobs active at any moment.
I also work in the US times, so I work
in the evenings, right, so it just kind of like
closed me off from a lot of things, and there's
just like I find that because of that, there's a
(17:17):
lot of animosity and lack of understanding, and it comes
out in these I find that I almost feel attacked.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Is dramatic, but for lack of a better word, I
experience these.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Little moments of attacking, right, like like oh, well, you
know Coe never does that, or like oh girl, well
you never do that, or like I know I can't
rely on you on that just because of these conditions
of my life, and it feels it feels suffocating, it
feels unfair. It feels almost like my character is being
taken into question just because like my time level is
(17:49):
a little bit different than maybe it was five ten
years ago, right, And I think that's also a big
part of it too. I wrote about this actually on
my blog Bad African. I do think again, just being honest,
no shame. I understand there's a lot of socioeconomic implications
that make this be the case. It's external from us
as a society, right, Like that's our government, that's our history,
so many things, right, But we do have a little
(18:10):
bit of an arrested development problem here, right Like, people
are just like a little bit late, they come to
coming of age a little bit later.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
No problem with that, but.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
It does kind of create this interesting dynamic where I
feel like I have to uphold the standards that I
had for my friends, like when I was high school.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Early twenties, you know, being ten.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Fifteen years out of that, it's really hard for me
to kind of switch back to that mentality and be like, yeah, like.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Let's do X, Y and Z. You know, when you're young,
you're so available to your triens, get right, and that
is how you connect to people. That's how you show
people that you love each other.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
You can't maintain that in adulthood, right, Like, we have
so many other responsibilities that we have to be privy to,
and so sometimes playing with those dynamics it can be
really difficult, and I think it stops me from being
the best friend. It stops me from connecting people to
people the way that I would love to. And it's
something that I'm in real time really trying to negotiate with.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And I think with boundaries, it's like, yes, you may
have your own boundaries in terms of like I can't
commit to this like whatever your reason is, right, right,
but you kind of like have to adjust how you
communicate them to each person, right, because everybody will receive
it differently.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Oh, yes, which is inherently exhausting. No, it is. It's
a form of codesage, you know what I mean. You're like,
oh my god, who can handle what?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And how?
Speaker 6 (19:29):
You know this?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Again? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (19:31):
And then how do I stop myself from being like excluded? Like,
let's not get it right, Like, from the other person's perspective,
if you feel like I'm not showing up for you,
of course you're gonna want to like edge me out
of your life a little bit. But like that's shitty
for me because I'm like, damn, Like it's not even
that I don't care, it's just not like going off
with the heads, you know what I mean, and like, girl,
(19:52):
like let's be that together, you know what I mean.
I find people being like really being like I don't
get like, like why are you so busy?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
And I'm like, you know, it's a lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
This is so interesting, and so what are some of
the tips maybe if somebody is trying to like set
boundaries in their friendships. Yeah, what's a way they can
do it in a way that's gentle in a way,
but still upholds what it is they're trying to do
and still honors them.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I need to.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Honor myself and say that I don't have the bandwidth
for this. Are there some tips that you have.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Learned in the code switching? Yes?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Yes, I think the biggest thing really is like honest,
loving communication.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
That's what I haven't been good about the past.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Like I'll be really afraid of like hurting somebody's feelings
or coming off as being you know, like headstrong or
like selfish. So I have like concealed when I felt
like my boundary has been crossed.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I'll give you an example anecdote.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So I moved back here as an adult in twenty twenty.
I'd lived here in high school. I had always come
to Kenya when I lived abroad during holiday and things
like that. But I went to high school here, I
went back for college, came back here in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Early in my return, I kind of like fell into.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
A friend group by way of my boyfriend, right, and
like in the beginning, everything was great. Everybody was really
open to each other. We were all very enthusiastic about
the friendship. It got toxic quickly, is what I'll say.
It's what I'll say. And a big issue that I
had a hard time sort of dealing with was was a.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Thing of sleepovers. Let me stop by saying this.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Yeah, I'm an only child, and I was like a
very sheltered only child, so I went to sleepover as
rarely as a kid, and they were usually with like
approved people like.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
My parents were those psychoed do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4 (21:36):
And like I so I think, and this might be
like an only child thing, but like I tend to
be like a little territorial about my space.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I just as an adult, I don't love sleepovers.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Like for me, I know that my warm bed is
waiting for me at home, Like I'm just gonna take
my asshet right like I love you, I love you,
I love you my bed.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I love my bed.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
So I was gonna see y'all.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
But there was this one incident where it was two
of our girlfriend's birthdays and we had have like, you know,
a whole day planned, like day party. We were gonna
go out at this whole thing and then we're gonna
have a sleepover. And then we're gonna go debranch the
next day. I was just like not a feeling the sleepover,
but like, you tell me, audience, like, what's the best
way to say that right, that it isn't insulting, that
it isn't like, oh, I don't want to be in
(22:16):
your stak ass to me. There was no way I
could communicate that. But I was lie right, and I
don't want to lie right. But I was just kind
of like, oh, like I'm not feeling great, which actually
was true. I haven't been getting my period in the
middle of the day at that point, so like I wasn't.
I tried all these little ways right to get out
of it, but like ooh, it turned on me real like.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
They were like you never want to do this.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Then I immediately attacked right, So then I was like
I just kind of like shut down.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I ended up doing it. I didn't have a good time.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
I don't think that I was my best self to
like those wonderful women at the time too, And so like,
I think I've made that mistake a lot. I think
that if I had just been honest and been like, hey,
like I love you guys, I'm just like not a
big like sleepover girl, like take me or leave me right,
Like I do, think it is worth it to show
up as your full self to whatever relationship you and
be like listen, cards on the table, this is who
(23:02):
I am. I love you and I want to show
up for you in whatever way I can. But this
is a boundary that I have personally. So I think
most important is just being honest, being communicative, Like when
you start to feel that feeling of your boundary being crossed,
if that's your real homegirl, that's your real friend, like
they will, they will come to you as you are
and like, girl, don't even worry about it.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, you know what I mean exactly. Oh my god,
I feel you on the sleepover thing.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Now.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I'm sorry. I just I can't share bed.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
I'm thirty, my back hurts. I need to sleep in
a starfish position, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Like me said, like, I feel.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Like because we're shooting a lot of shoes in Nibi,
I live in the don't there in roo?
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Oh yeah, so sister, Oh my goodness, no sleep over,
no sleepovers. But you can't of course copless and I
can enjoy a lovely evening or day.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Together, everybody goes. So my friend said, oh, why don't
you come and stay.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Over with me in Nairobi, like while you're filming, And
I was just like, oh my god, no no.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But it's more about like I need the reset, like
I need in my bed and wake up from my bed. Yeah,
I'll feel like okay, so new Yeah you know. Yeah,
so I hear you in that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And if you can communicate your boundaries in a way
that and in a way that you know is respectful
and is honest, it's not your fault if the space
maybe fails you and isn't as safe as what you
thought it was. Yes, yes, before we get to solitude
and how powerful that can be in figuring out your
(24:37):
relationship itself to the point where you can even know
your boundaries and know how to feed into yourself. How
did you make I know you mentioned like your boyfriend
and so that's how you got your first group of friends.
But as an adult, do you find it hard to
make new friends? Because I find it like very strange.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
It's the worst.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
It's the worst because I think especially in a place
like Nairobi, where like the majority of people have lived here,
their whole lives have their same friend group. I don't
want to say that there aren't individuals out here, but
like usually you know, when you look at these groups
of friends, will gets a lot of homogeneousness within the group, right,
Like everyone likes to do the same kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
They have their routine, they're happy in their routine. Understandable.
That's fantastic, that's your right.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
But when it comes to infiltrating and making new relationships,
not the easiest dynamic to enter.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So yeah, I think it's especially hard.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
And again, like doing all that while balancing the realities
of your life, giving yourself to your career, giving yourself
to any romantic partner, to your family, to yourself, Like,
it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
To take on.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
It's really hard, and I don't think it ever gets
any better.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, do you feel like there's an intention that was
here around it? Like I tried because I was like
I want to have more female friends, yes, going to like.
Speaker 8 (25:52):
Say friends, Yeah, he's done, great, I done, So I
can leave it, like.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
You know what, I identify people and be like, oh,
Coy's really good.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
Yeah, yes, and then I'll be like, oh, let's do lunch. Yes,
and the anxiety. I would fall off afterwards. Yeah, I
would just be like, oh my god, Yeah, I don't
know what to do next.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Yeah, that's happened to me with so many people. Really, yeah,
because like how do you massage the relationship? Like what
are sort of like the benchmarks of creating a true
friend Like do we have to go on a trip together?
Do we have to like have x amount of lunch?
Like weirdly, it's like kind of weird to quantify, and
then all throughout like kind of testing each other's boundaries,
like what's your room for friendship? What's my room for friendship?
(26:39):
What's your room for massaging this new relationship? Like are
you into me?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And common to you?
Speaker 4 (26:43):
And again, like we can talk about this on the
romantic level because there's such like a rich history of
societal exploration of romantic love in this way right like
it's dating, right like it it's friend dating. And I
wish that people talked more about on the friendship level,
because like you know, at the end of the day,
with mantic relationships, you're going to find your way out together.
The party is just as awkward as you are, and
(27:05):
at least we have some touchstones on a cultural level
that we can go to when we are feeling lost.
But with French troops don't have the same kind of thing, right,
we don't have the same kind of barometer of success,
don't have the same kind of barometer of failure, have
the same kind of like guidance.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So it's really hard and.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Even expectation of like what is this journey of like
making a new friend mean to look like, yeah, we
don't know, so it's just like I don't know sets
the rules, like someone give us guidance are the rule
one are the expectations. For me, what has worked is
just to stop being too much in control, like just relief, yes,
and not everything is a project that needs to be
(27:39):
like spreadsheets.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
I love a project, so it's unfortunate I love a spreadsheet,
so it's you just have to.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Release and just yet the magic kind of happened as well.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yes, leift go to solitude.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
But I think I only started understanding the power of
it in my thirties because traditionally, and I think culturally,
as African women, Kenyan women, you don't really get opportunities
to be alone. Yes, you grow up in a house
(28:09):
where there's probably tons of other people in and out,
and then culturally what's meant to happen is when we're
talking marriage, you are picked from your house and now
you go and start this other home.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Right, so you don't really have moments of solitude. And
solitude can be quite daunting, it can be quite scary.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
But in the end, what I've found is that it
can be a gift and a blessing. It helps you
understand yourself better too, even know the type of friendships
you want.
Speaker 6 (28:36):
To keep around you. What's your experience with solitude being.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yes, oh my gosh, I could well, first, I can
agree with you more.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I think like it's I would almost say, exclusively in
the moments of solitude where you get to really get
acquainted with yourself and see yourself in a meaningful way, right,
Like you.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Live so much of your life around people and their
distractions from the.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Truth of who you are, from the truth of what
you want in every aspect of your life.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
I think that I have been really lucky.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
I feel like I learned that lesson really quickly my
parents when they were getting divorced, This was high school.
They were on my ass all of my childhood. But
then now when the marriage start deteriorating. They's been kind
of like getting lost in themselves in very different ways.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
My dad physically left the home, my mom.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Sort of like emotionally mentally left the home, right, which
left me really on my own in a very pivotal
time in life, right like high schools, when you are
figuring out like what you want to do, who you
want to be, where you want to go, You're making
a lot of big life decisions. And I always am
so thankful that I have that alone time because really
that's where I really figured out, like at an inner
strength that has never left me, has never failed me,
(29:40):
and also really helped me figure out that lesson and
of itself, which I think is the most important lesson
to learn in life. And then from there, I just
it gave me the confidence to pursue more solitude, which
again gave me more confidence in who I am and
what I want to do, especially when I went to
Paris after college. That's when I think I was alone
in a completely different way, right, Like I think if
you and if your privileged, not then you get the
(30:01):
opportunity to go to a different country where you don't
know anybody, where nobody knows you. That to me is
really where you'll figure out who you are and what
you want. It was there where I figured out where
I want to be a writer. I figured out the
kind of life that I wanted to have, at least
to that extent. It's evolved over time, right, But Yeah,
I think that there's such power in solitude. If you
(30:22):
can really prove to yourself that you can exist with
yourself for intended period of time, then nobody can take anything.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Away from you.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
It's a kind of clarity that I think is very
specific and again like lifelong, if you can find the
ways to tap back into it. But again, the strong foundation,
it'll always be there for you. No matter what happens
in life and life changes, there will be times that
you will be alone, right, And I think that that's
why it's so important as young as possible to get
comfortable at that.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, what were some of the fears around solitude or
like challenging moments? Yes, because I think sometimes we run
away from being alone with ourselves into relationship, be friendships
or romantic partners, because when you're alone, like these things
you have to face. Yeah, So, like, were there moments
like that, especially in this in a foreign country where yeah,
(31:12):
you don't speak the language.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah, no, there's just there's it feels emotionally unsafe.
It does in the beginning, right, because you're like, oh
my gosh, like where is my connection? Where is my
safety net?
Speaker 6 (31:23):
In people?
Speaker 4 (31:24):
It feels unsafe, And it does for a while. You
do kind of have to embrace that. Of course, the loneliness,
and of course like the mental health ramifications as well,
and all of those are real things, right, It's important
to be aware of them. But like if you can
power through and find a way to check in on yourself,
even if it.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Doesn't it's not long lasting.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
I was only in Paris for a couple of months
because I got to the point where it was having
damaging e back on my mental health, and so I
had to make a decision for myself. But even that
is empowering, right, Like I was able to build the
skills to be able to look into myself be like,
oh I'm not doing so hot. I need to make
decisions for myself. And that's such an informative experience that
I want everybody to have. Everyone deserves to have that
(32:02):
moment because it shows you your inner strengths.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
And you can check in with yourself and you get
to know yourself in a.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Way that is out of this world.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I really wish a lot more women had opportunities to
live alone, even culturally.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I wish it was more accepted.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yes, obviously it is a privilege to some extent, Yes,
but that alone time is just so transformative.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
And so the one thing I also want us.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
To talk about is your writing, right, because I think
having you on the show is incredible. Your article of friendship,
I think was just so insightful.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Thank you so much. Tell me more about what it.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Is you're currently writing, because I think our manneralist women
watching would benefit from it.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yes, what am I not writing?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Really, there's too many things going on. So my production company,
Creber Productions, we are constantly writing projects. So we currently
have some scripts that we're working on for a show
that I created called Namesake. I'm super excited about it.
Like we were talking about this off there about the
Kenyan industry, So that's a whole other episode if you
guys want to tell and tell that was a whole
other conversation. But I feel like comedies, especially female driven comedies,
(33:10):
are not a really populated space. So Namesake is about
two women, a mother and a daughter, who find themselves
at a crossroads and they're thrown together after a long
period of estrangement. So chaos and healing and sue, lots
of funny messiness.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Hopefully it goes somewhere within day. So I'm working on
that in other projects as well. I'm also working on
my first novel. So actually after yeah for me, So actually,
after I wrote that Friendship, I say, I am a
publisher in New York, retil I want me to say
if I'd be interested in writing a.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Novel exploring similar themes. So yeah, I'm working on a
novel now.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
It's about a Kenyan American girl who survives a terrorist
attack in Niro. We kind of falla Westgate, and shortly
thereafter she moves to college to the US to start over.
But she's quickly there learned that coming home again isn't
as easy at advertised, and you can't run away from
your trauma.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Not gonna work.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
So that's low but it's coming together. I'm super excited
about that. And then yeah, then I have my blog
Bad African, where I'm exploring a lot of the things
that we've talked about today identity relationships, also reframing Africa,
not the one that folks outside of the continency on CNN,
but a real modern Africa and our real modern experiences
that we're struggling with, that we're negotiating with. And then yeah,
(34:22):
then I'm constantly sort of writing outside of that. So
I write part time for a platform called Blavity. It's fantastic,
please check us out Blade dot com. And then yeah,
and then pieces outside of that every now and.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Again as well.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
And this is why you have to have boundaries, because you.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Have time, and you know too, you're on camera too,
because I also have my platform movie Boss, that I
am host with my boyfriend Will. We talk about all
things movies and TV and Kenyan beyond. This takes a
lot where like, I know your audience is watching this
and they're like, oh my god, like so organic, But
there's so much that goes into this, right, your incredible
team reaching out to me. We talked about this for weeks.
(34:58):
There's so much planning. This takes a lot out of you.
It's important that you have a reset. So for me,
that's imperative to have in my schedule.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And so for as we wrap up for the woman
who's watching, yes, who think something is wrong with her
because she doesn't have a as many friends as she thinks,
or is socialized to think that she should have, or
that her friendships don't look like what she's been socialized
to think, you know, what we see in social media,
(35:28):
or that she just doesn't have friends. Yes, and maybe
you're thinking something is wrong with you? Yes, what would
you want to tell that woman?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna tell her to this same.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
First of all, girl, that'sn's wrong with you. Everybody is
going through what you're going through. They are just projecting
something very different on the channels where we can see
them publicly, like social media. Right, what you're going through
is normal. Friendships come and go. I promise you life
is sure, but it's really long too. There will be
times in your life where you'll be more social, There'll
be times where you're less social. Will come in and
(36:00):
out of your life. There's so much more ahead. Friendships
will come back to your life as well. You do you, baby,
You keep yourself at the forefront, keep trusting your God,
keep trust putting yourself out there. The tides will turn.
They always do.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
I feel like we need to have Koi with us,
even on the days when we're not believing in ourselves.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Should I have yea, yeah on Monday?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Too?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Great?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (36:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
But thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
The writing that you do, it's courageous, but it pays off,
like thanks so many people that you're reaching.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I embarrass myself so that you don't have to. So
that's my slog, and it's.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Really hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Of course, if you want to connect with Koi and
all of her writing, check out the descriptions their links
and if you resonated with this episode, shares with all
the mandalist women in your life or almost mandalist women,
and don't forget to subscribe to that you don't miss
out on the next episode.
Welcome to for Mannalist Women.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I'm your host Adela on Jangle, and this is a
space committed to naturing a new generation of shamefue women
who are ready to meet their best self. And in
this episode, we're unpacking friendship with journalists.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Koim Why, whose Vogue article.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
On why friendships Die went viral globally because so many
people connected with it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
So first and all, it's.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Great to finally meet you and I sit down with you.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I see all of the incredible stuff you do in
TikTok when it comes to reviewing films and also your
incredible articles as well. Thank you so thanks for making
time to be on for Manalist Women.
Speaker 4 (00:48):
Thank you so much for having me. I love it here,
as you can tell by how I've just been chatting
away like we just have you here. Yeah, episodes just
have me here all the time. The term little segment.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Just like pop up.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Yes, that's what I love to do.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
So there's one article that you wrote that really stands out,
and I think I can't remember the year you wrote it,
but people keep going back to it and you wrote
it for Vogue.
Speaker 6 (01:15):
First and foremost, congratulations.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thank you so much. But the article is about friendship?
Can you unpack it? Especially for people who have not
read it and they don't know why it's like perpetually trending.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
First of all, thank you so much for all the
kind words.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
I wrote it back in twenty thirteen, twenty twenty three,
not the same year, the same year.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
They all blend together after a while, don't they.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah, And essentially in it, I revisited for former friendships
and I asked those former friends, hey, why.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Did these relationships not work out?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
To hopefully learn something meaningful about friendships, especially in adult years.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It can be complicated, it can be weird, that can be.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
Hard to maintain, and I found myself at the time
really craving answers.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
So yeah, but we're better than to go.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
To the source that is so interesting. And it's true.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I love that you talk about adult friendships because you
never we don't go through the transition. Well, so, like
in primary school, high school, a lot of the work
around making friends is done for us.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Oh yeah, you're in the same setting.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Your parents are putting you guys together, like everything is dumpy,
and then you release into the world and it'say, how
do I maintain you.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Going through the same things At the same time, you
have all these different spaces where you can explore different interests,
all these things that help foster relationships, and then one
day you just leave school and it's over right, Like
you lose all of this infrastructure, and one of the
things to go, I think is healthy relationships, like and
it's really hard to maintain that without that sort of safety.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So tell me about the article.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, how did you What was it like making those calls?
Speaker 6 (02:46):
What any of the four friendship?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Did any of them end like on a bad note
or did they just fizzle out? What was the take
me through that experience of making those calls?
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Whoa making those calls? Not so fun? Everything? It came
together pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I had been pitching Vogue for a while, different sort
of iterations of what the article could look like.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
In the beginning, I had wanted to frame it around
wedding seasons.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
I think that weddings and sort of those milestones, those
adult milestones, they kind of put a weird perspective on relationships.
I found that when my friends were getting engaged and married,
it made me sort of like re examine my friendships
and reexamine where I was in my life in.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
A different way.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Anyways, they weren't interested, but I still felt very pulled
to have this conversation. And then yeah, just out of nowhere,
I was like, oh, like what if I actually was
in conversation with these former friends and wrote about the
experience And then they were saying yes very quickly, And
then I was.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Like, oh no, I would have to do this.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
So I reached out to a good amount of people.
I of course had a list in my mind right
of people, and they were a mix, right, Some of them
were more you know, there was more drama surrounded the
end of the friendships, but honestly, the majority of them
were just like fizzled, and weirdly enough, I felt more
nervous about those ones and I did the bad ones,
maybe because I had just assumed that they would like
say no, what a good amount of them did Buttuly,
(04:00):
a lot more people were more open to it than
I thought that they were, And so yeah, I think
the hardest part definitely was the initial reaching out, Like
that was really nerve.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Wracking because I was just like, hey, like, hi, friends
you ever heard from me? And a liar, like what
do you even call them? Like?
Speaker 4 (04:13):
Hey, so and so we're so and so like it
felt weird, right, like what kind of language, what kind
of vernacular do you even use?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
So yeah, that was the hardest part.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
But I just was like listen, I just have to
like be honest, right and be like listen, like, this
is a crazy thing that I'm doing.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
This is why I'm doing it.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Your privacy and your mental health are my top concerns.
So if you aren't comfortable doing this, that's totally fine.
If you are, here are the ways that I'll protect you.
And then really from there it was like, actually, okay,
the conversations themselves actually were like a lot less scary,
I think because I built it so much in my
head and there were you know, it took a lot
of time also too to like get back to people
and to find people.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
You know, yeah, I've been blocked.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
Sometimes by being honest and also just like tracking down
people over losing contact over years, right like Instagram handles
change and things like that.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
So yeah, the.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Conversations themselves actually ended up being okay. And then the
right it came really organically from there.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Before we get to like what the conversations thoughts you Like,
you've said something that's so interesting. So you're looking for
someone and you realize that you're blocked.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
What are they?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
What are the emotions before you write the article? So
during your time when you're reaching out, what do some
of the emotions that you're faced with. So you realize
someone has blocked you, or you see someone and you
see they so many miles stones you have missed.
Speaker 6 (05:30):
Out of somebody who you used to be close to.
What are you feeling in that moment.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I think I felt a lot of guilt. I found
a lot of guilt about why the relations ended. And
I think I'm somebody who, like I already really struggle
with guilt, and I tend to feel like if something
has gone wrong, I do feel like I tend to
take like ninety percent of the blame, even though like
in most situations in life, right like it's a fifty
to fifty everybody has their role, but I always sort
of feel like I take a lot of responsibility for
my part. So I was very overwhelmed by guilt and
(05:58):
with every person that I reach out to, like those
guilty feelings kind.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Of came up to the surface. A big one was anxiety.
I really was. I was very nervous.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
I was very much like oh my god, like how
do I have the audacity to do this, like of
just popping back into this person's life like I never
left and being like, hey, like do you want to
like air our dirty laundry out? Like for a good
amount of people.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
To read like hey, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
And then I felt like I was like, oh, like
am I being selfish? So those are kind of like
the thoughts that were circling through my head?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Yeah, And then afterwards, what did you learn about friendships?
Like what are the takeaways that you previously didn't have?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:32):
I think it was a really beautiful reminder that oftentimes
in life, when the way that we remember things, particularly
things that are negative, especially as it pertains to the
way relationships end with other platonic familial whether they're romantic,
I think that we always think that it was worse
than it really was. Of course, like in instance of abuse,
and those are different, Like I'm not talking about like
(06:54):
things like that. I'm talking more about like the everyday
sort of fallouts, right, Like it's usually not as bad
as you think that it is. And I think that
people are also more forgiving than you think that they are.
Like I was very surprised by how little animosity there
actually was on the other party side, you know, because
I'm really thinking that like, oh, like all of these
(07:14):
I messed up in X, Y and C. Ways I
didn't do X, Y and C. But like there's a
lot more understanding and there's a lot more fluidity I
think with friendships, right, Like I felt like I was
it was easier to slip back into a more like
friendly back and forth like dynamic. So yeah, I think
that really friendships are more fluid that I think that
we're told societally than they are.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, And I think it's like when something happens to you,
like it's over it. Yeah, it's terrible, it's over. Let's
not revisit when you go back. I guess, even like
with the gift of time, you're like, was it really
that bad?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah, did any of the friends that you spoke to?
Speaker 6 (07:52):
Did any of those friendships spuck up again?
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think I'm gonna
say no.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
One. Here's why.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
There's definitely like no love lost, right, like we are
still like there's still a lot of love there, there's
still a lot of connection there, but I think also
there's just like realities to like our lives now, right,
Like most of the people that I spoke with live
in the US. Obviously that's halfway around the world. There's
given me so many ways that we can stay close. Also,
just like a lot of time had passed for most
of those relationships, so obviously there's not gonna be a
(08:24):
full I don't want to say a full repair, but
like it can't be what it was, right, And I
struggled with that for a long time. I actually wrote
about it on my blog back African looking back on
it two years later, and I did really struggle with
a lot of disappointment, right because I do think that
like because the conversations were more positive than I thought
that they were going to be. I was like, oh
my god, like we're gonna be best friends again, Like yeah,
(08:45):
let's do it, Like let's go on the trips, let's
commit to facetimes, all of this stuff. But then you know,
life happens, and I had to sort of be like, yeah,
like this doesn't mean that there isn't still love there,
There isn't even still a friendship there.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
It's just not what it wasn't That's.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Okay, yeah, what's interesting and what I find difficult.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Rather with friendships, I almost prefer friendships ending with a reason,
even if the reason that's painful, because then I'm like,
there was a reason. Yeah, maybe you acted, you know,
in a way that I didn't appreciate.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Maybe I acted in a way that you didn't like. Yeah,
there's a reason.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, rather than the ones that fizzle, oh yeah, or
the ones that you evolve past someone yeah and pasta friendship.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Have you experienced that, the evolving pastor friendship?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
I would say the majority of my friendships, my friendship
breakups has.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Been like that.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
And you're right, like I do think it is more
painful because again it's like why why why why?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Why?
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Right?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
And you you have such love for this person. It's
like it's like a romantic relationship. I think this is
where platonic and romantic relationships.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Really mirror each other.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Like, of course, like it's terrible to be cheated on,
it's terrible to get in like a fight with somebody,
but at least it's a tangible kind of thing that
you how to deal with it, right, Like you go
through your stages and if you warn it, you get
it all out and you move on. But when you're
still struggling with the why and you're not sure why
the separation has happened, that is way way, way more painful.
And it's a hard sort of reality that like most
(10:14):
of the times in life, people are only in your.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Life for a season.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Very rarely are they there for life, which is okay,
you know what I mean. I think it makes us
appreciate the lifelong relationships even more.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, do you think when we talk about like friendships
maybe being for a season and that being normal. Yes,
I first, you know, heard of this from my therapist. Yes,
And I remember she was saying she made a statement
that I was like, that's strange. She's like, yeah, if somebody,
if people tell me, oh, I've been friends with this
person for twenty thirty years, she always takes it with
(10:48):
a pinch of salts.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
She doesn't really believe it.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
And I was like, what do you mean, we're all
struggling to have those friendships that last. Ian's right, and
she was like, the amount of work it takes and
the seasons that you're each going.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Through, it's very difficult.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
It's very ye.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
And so what do you feel about some of the
expectations that are pushed on us when it comes to
female friendships, like they need to last. I've been friends
with Coy for twenty years. We go, as you're saying,
we have a FaceTime every month, Yep, we go on
a girls street every quarter, whatever it is, right, What
(11:28):
do you feel about these expectations and the pressures of
what female friendships should look like and how long they
should last.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
First of all, I think it's intermountable, and I think
it's really unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
You know.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
I think if we're comparing inter generationally, like looking at
our like our parents' generation, they have kind of painted
this picture of like, oh my gosh, like this sort
of like steadfast, like continued threat of friendship that has
lasted from primary school to now.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Fifty sixty years.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
Right of consistent showing up for people, consistent being close.
But like that's really not the reality of right, Like
life changes so much, and the more realistic picture of
French the ebb and flow, right, you go through different things,
maybe you get married at different points. Maybe some people
don't get buried, have kids, don't have kids, Like these
are all big things that affect our lives and they
affect the way that we relate to each other. I'm
(12:16):
really lucky that my mom has always been very honest
with me about sort of the ebbs and flows of
her life and how it's affected her relationships, especially her
platonic ones. And you know, when she got divorced, right like,
she was the only person in her friend group experiencing that,
so there was they couldn't relate to her friends count
really to what she was going through, right, So there
was a little bit of a separation there. But what
has been so nice to see is that now it's
been almost a decade plus since my parents got divorced,
(12:37):
now she's found a way back to some of those friendships.
They've been able to find new connections. So it is
really more of an ever evolving ebb and flow. It's
not this stagnant, completely calm waters. But again, like the
societal picture, isn't that, especially those especially for African women.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
The narrative is that we have to be so giving
to our communities, and that really to me, like it
starts with the family, and I think the next sort
of phase of that is friendships, right, like the external
sort of like tribe outside of the immediate family has
to be sort of served and appreciated as much as
the immediate family. But like girl who has had that,
(13:15):
who has time for a husband and years and work
and also yeah, and capitalism and what we owe to
ourselves as individuals. It's a lot that we are put
on ourselves. And even though those realities existed for our
mothers and our grandmothers, society hasn't shifted enough.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
On in Africa to be able to reflect that. In
terms of how.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
We look at women and relationships, we're still thought of
they have to be pillars, they have to be strong,
they have to maintain, and I just like, I'm over
it and.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
All the time these like all the time, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
And I love what you're talking about in terms of
like externally, like you're just given and giving to all
of these relationships. Yes, but I don't think we actually
spend as much time in terms of our own relationship
itself now an identity. And so how do you balance
like in terms of the friendships that you have now
and showing up for them in a way that honors you, koy,
(14:11):
but also your relationship itself and your identity.
Speaker 6 (14:15):
So you don't get lost in your friends.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Can I be so honest?
Speaker 7 (14:18):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (14:18):
Right now, I don't think that I'm doing a great
job at it, Like I really don't think that I am.
I think that I am. I'm really accustomed to like
checking in on myself. I've spent a huge chunk of
my life alone. And that's not like in a negative way.
That's not like by trying to suggest any kind of neglect.
I've just like had a lot of like solo experiences,
whether it's like moving from here to the US for
(14:39):
college on my own, with like no family close to me.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
You know what I mean? After college, I mean to
Paris and I worked as no pair for a couple
of months. Don't speak French, don't know anybody in Paris.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
I've had a lot of experiences where i'en on my own,
so I really know how to like serve myself. What
I'm now trying to figure out is, Okay, how do
I start to bring people banning in while still like
maintaining my boundaries. This is like no shade to my
beautiful Kenyan sisters out there. But I don't think that
we live in a culture that is very well versed
on boundaries. Something that I have really struggled with in
(15:08):
friendships here is trying to find a way to maintain
those connections while also being from and what my boundaries
are and where I am in my life. I think
a lot of times I feel isolated because of that. So,
to be totally honest with you, it's something that I'm
still trying to navigate. I'm still trying to find the
connections that I really want to invest in, and I'm
still trying to figure out, Okay, how do I invest
in them while still trying to te to myself while
(15:30):
not like insulting anybody or.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Isolating myself in the process.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
It's harder than I think anybody is really owning up to. Yeah,
totally honest, It's really hard, and there isn't a lot
of grace on either end, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I want to spend some time on the boundaries in
friendships because that is different.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
To get so madam, I'm gonna get really upset with
me because I'm not to be so honest, because it's.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Like the guilt that comes with setting boundaries in friendships, yeah,
is real, and you almost feel like you're going to
get what you've been socialized to believed again back to
like giving, give and giving.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
Friendship needs to look like yeah, and there's honestly, also.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
If we're being very honest, the way we're socialized is
I'm showing up for Coy, so that when I need
Coy to show up for me, right, And so when
you're boundary interacts that these are the feeling of like
what if I'm going to go through ABCD in.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Ten months, will she show up?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
What has the experience with boundaries been?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
How much time do we have?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
It's something that I do think stops me from pursuing
connections here because I really just feel like there isn't
I don't want to say that there's a lack of
an understanding, because I think that is condescending to like
our intelligence as the people like I think conceptually we
understand the concept of boundaries and why they're important.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
On the ground, though how doesn't show up.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
I think I feel like I get punished a lot
by the friends that I have because of my boundaries
or even just like my different lifestyle right Like I'm
a creative I have seventeen jobs active at any moment.
I also work in the US times, so I work
in the evenings, right, so it just kind of like
closed me off from a lot of things, and there's
just like I find that because of that, there's a
(17:17):
lot of animosity and lack of understanding, and it comes
out in these I find that I almost feel attacked.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Is dramatic, but for lack of a better word, I
experience these.
Speaker 4 (17:27):
Little moments of attacking, right, like like oh, well, you
know Coe never does that, or like oh girl, well
you never do that, or like I know I can't
rely on you on that just because of these conditions
of my life, and it feels it feels suffocating, it
feels unfair. It feels almost like my character is being
taken into question just because like my time level is
(17:49):
a little bit different than maybe it was five ten
years ago, right, And I think that's also a big
part of it too. I wrote about this actually on
my blog Bad African. I do think again, just being honest,
no shame. I understand there's a lot of socioeconomic implications
that make this be the case. It's external from us
as a society, right, Like that's our government, that's our history,
so many things, right, But we do have a little
(18:10):
bit of an arrested development problem here, right Like, people
are just like a little bit late, they come to
coming of age a little bit later.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
No problem with that, but.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
It does kind of create this interesting dynamic where I
feel like I have to uphold the standards that I
had for my friends, like when I was high school.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Early twenties, you know, being ten.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Fifteen years out of that, it's really hard for me
to kind of switch back to that mentality and be like, yeah, like.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Let's do X, Y and Z. You know, when you're young,
you're so available to your triens, get right, and that
is how you connect to people. That's how you show
people that you love each other.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
You can't maintain that in adulthood, right, Like, we have
so many other responsibilities that we have to be privy to,
and so sometimes playing with those dynamics it can be
really difficult, and I think it stops me from being
the best friend. It stops me from connecting people to
people the way that I would love to. And it's
something that I'm in real time really trying to negotiate with.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
And I think with boundaries, it's like, yes, you may
have your own boundaries in terms of like I can't
commit to this like whatever your reason is, right, right,
but you kind of like have to adjust how you
communicate them to each person, right, because everybody will receive
it differently.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Oh, yes, which is inherently exhausting. No, it is. It's
a form of codesage, you know what I mean. You're like,
oh my god, who can handle what?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And how?
Speaker 6 (19:29):
You know this?
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Again? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (19:31):
And then how do I stop myself from being like excluded? Like,
let's not get it right, Like, from the other person's perspective,
if you feel like I'm not showing up for you,
of course you're gonna want to like edge me out
of your life a little bit. But like that's shitty
for me because I'm like, damn, Like it's not even
that I don't care, it's just not like going off
with the heads, you know what I mean, and like, girl,
(19:52):
like let's be that together, you know what I mean.
I find people being like really being like I don't
get like, like why are you so busy?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
And I'm like, you know, it's a lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
This is so interesting, and so what are some of
the tips maybe if somebody is trying to like set
boundaries in their friendships. Yeah, what's a way they can
do it in a way that's gentle in a way,
but still upholds what it is they're trying to do
and still honors them.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I need to.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Honor myself and say that I don't have the bandwidth
for this. Are there some tips that you have.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Learned in the code switching? Yes?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Yes, I think the biggest thing really is like honest,
loving communication.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
That's what I haven't been good about the past.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Like I'll be really afraid of like hurting somebody's feelings
or coming off as being you know, like headstrong or
like selfish. So I have like concealed when I felt
like my boundary has been crossed.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I'll give you an example anecdote.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
So I moved back here as an adult in twenty twenty.
I'd lived here in high school. I had always come
to Kenya when I lived abroad during holiday and things
like that. But I went to high school here, I
went back for college, came back here in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Early in my return, I kind of like fell into.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
A friend group by way of my boyfriend, right, and
like in the beginning, everything was great. Everybody was really
open to each other. We were all very enthusiastic about
the friendship. It got toxic quickly, is what I'll say.
It's what I'll say. And a big issue that I
had a hard time sort of dealing with was was a.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
Thing of sleepovers. Let me stop by saying this.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
Yeah, I'm an only child, and I was like a
very sheltered only child, so I went to sleepover as
rarely as a kid, and they were usually with like
approved people like.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
My parents were those psychoed do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4 (21:36):
And like I so I think, and this might be
like an only child thing, but like I tend to
be like a little territorial about my space.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I just as an adult, I don't love sleepovers.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Like for me, I know that my warm bed is
waiting for me at home, Like I'm just gonna take
my asshet right like I love you, I love you,
I love you my bed.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
I love my bed.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
So I was gonna see y'all.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
But there was this one incident where it was two
of our girlfriend's birthdays and we had have like, you know,
a whole day planned, like day party. We were gonna
go out at this whole thing and then we're gonna
have a sleepover. And then we're gonna go debranch the
next day. I was just like not a feeling the sleepover,
but like, you tell me, audience, like, what's the best
way to say that right, that it isn't insulting, that
it isn't like, oh, I don't want to be in
(22:16):
your stak ass to me. There was no way I
could communicate that. But I was lie right, and I
don't want to lie right. But I was just kind
of like, oh, like I'm not feeling great, which actually
was true. I haven't been getting my period in the
middle of the day at that point, so like I wasn't.
I tried all these little ways right to get out
of it, but like ooh, it turned on me real like.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
They were like you never want to do this.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Then I immediately attacked right, So then I was like
I just kind of like shut down.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I ended up doing it. I didn't have a good time.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
I don't think that I was my best self to
like those wonderful women at the time too, And so like,
I think I've made that mistake a lot. I think
that if I had just been honest and been like, hey,
like I love you guys, I'm just like not a
big like sleepover girl, like take me or leave me right,
Like I do, think it is worth it to show
up as your full self to whatever relationship you and
be like listen, cards on the table, this is who
(23:02):
I am. I love you and I want to show
up for you in whatever way I can. But this
is a boundary that I have personally. So I think
most important is just being honest, being communicative, Like when
you start to feel that feeling of your boundary being crossed,
if that's your real homegirl, that's your real friend, like
they will, they will come to you as you are
and like, girl, don't even worry about it.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I will see you tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, you know what I mean exactly. Oh my god,
I feel you on the sleepover thing.
Speaker 6 (23:27):
Now.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I'm sorry. I just I can't share bed.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
I'm thirty, my back hurts. I need to sleep in
a starfish position, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Like me said, like, I feel.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Like because we're shooting a lot of shoes in Nibi,
I live in the don't there in roo?
Speaker 4 (23:44):
Oh yeah, so sister, Oh my goodness, no sleep over,
no sleepovers. But you can't of course copless and I
can enjoy a lovely evening or day.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Together, everybody goes. So my friend said, oh, why don't
you come and stay.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Over with me in Nairobi, like while you're filming, And
I was just like, oh my god, no no.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
But it's more about like I need the reset, like
I need in my bed and wake up from my bed. Yeah,
I'll feel like okay, so new Yeah you know. Yeah,
so I hear you in that.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And if you can communicate your boundaries in a way
that and in a way that you know is respectful
and is honest, it's not your fault if the space
maybe fails you and isn't as safe as what you
thought it was. Yes, yes, before we get to solitude
and how powerful that can be in figuring out your
(24:37):
relationship itself to the point where you can even know
your boundaries and know how to feed into yourself. How
did you make I know you mentioned like your boyfriend
and so that's how you got your first group of friends.
But as an adult, do you find it hard to
make new friends? Because I find it like very strange.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
It's the worst.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
It's the worst because I think especially in a place
like Nairobi, where like the majority of people have lived here,
their whole lives have their same friend group. I don't
want to say that there aren't individuals out here, but
like usually you know, when you look at these groups
of friends, will gets a lot of homogeneousness within the group, right,
Like everyone likes to do the same kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
They have their routine, they're happy in their routine. Understandable.
That's fantastic, that's your right.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
But when it comes to infiltrating and making new relationships,
not the easiest dynamic to enter.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So yeah, I think it's especially hard.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
And again, like doing all that while balancing the realities
of your life, giving yourself to your career, giving yourself
to any romantic partner, to your family, to yourself, Like,
it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
To take on.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
It's really hard, and I don't think it ever gets
any better.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, do you feel like there's an intention that was
here around it? Like I tried because I was like
I want to have more female friends, yes, going to like.
Speaker 8 (25:52):
Say friends, Yeah, he's done, great, I done, So I
can leave it, like.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
You know what, I identify people and be like, oh,
Coy's really good.
Speaker 7 (26:07):
Yeah, yes, and then I'll be like, oh, let's do lunch. Yes,
and the anxiety. I would fall off afterwards. Yeah, I
would just be like, oh my god, Yeah, I don't
know what to do next.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Yeah, that's happened to me with so many people. Really, yeah,
because like how do you massage the relationship? Like what
are sort of like the benchmarks of creating a true
friend Like do we have to go on a trip together?
Do we have to like have x amount of lunch?
Like weirdly, it's like kind of weird to quantify, and
then all throughout like kind of testing each other's boundaries,
like what's your room for friendship? What's my room for friendship?
(26:39):
What's your room for massaging this new relationship? Like are
you into me?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
And common to you?
Speaker 4 (26:43):
And again, like we can talk about this on the
romantic level because there's such like a rich history of
societal exploration of romantic love in this way right like
it's dating, right like it it's friend dating. And I
wish that people talked more about on the friendship level,
because like you know, at the end of the day,
with mantic relationships, you're going to find your way out together.
The party is just as awkward as you are, and
(27:05):
at least we have some touchstones on a cultural level
that we can go to when we are feeling lost.
But with French troops don't have the same kind of thing, right,
we don't have the same kind of barometer of success,
don't have the same kind of barometer of failure, have
the same kind of like guidance.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So it's really hard and.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Even expectation of like what is this journey of like
making a new friend mean to look like, yeah, we
don't know, so it's just like I don't know sets
the rules, like someone give us guidance are the rule
one are the expectations. For me, what has worked is
just to stop being too much in control, like just relief, yes,
and not everything is a project that needs to be
(27:39):
like spreadsheets.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
I love a project, so it's unfortunate I love a spreadsheet,
so it's you just have to.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Release and just yet the magic kind of happened as well.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yes, leift go to solitude.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
But I think I only started understanding the power of
it in my thirties because traditionally, and I think culturally,
as African women, Kenyan women, you don't really get opportunities
to be alone. Yes, you grow up in a house
(28:09):
where there's probably tons of other people in and out,
and then culturally what's meant to happen is when we're
talking marriage, you are picked from your house and now
you go and start this other home.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Right, so you don't really have moments of solitude. And
solitude can be quite daunting, it can be quite scary.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
But in the end, what I've found is that it
can be a gift and a blessing. It helps you
understand yourself better too, even know the type of friendships
you want.
Speaker 6 (28:36):
To keep around you. What's your experience with solitude being.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Yes, oh my gosh, I could well, first, I can
agree with you more.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
I think like it's I would almost say, exclusively in
the moments of solitude where you get to really get
acquainted with yourself and see yourself in a meaningful way, right,
Like you.
Speaker 3 (28:53):
Live so much of your life around people and their
distractions from the.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Truth of who you are, from the truth of what
you want in every aspect of your life.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
I think that I have been really lucky.
Speaker 4 (29:02):
I feel like I learned that lesson really quickly my
parents when they were getting divorced, This was high school.
They were on my ass all of my childhood. But
then now when the marriage start deteriorating. They's been kind
of like getting lost in themselves in very different ways.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
My dad physically left the home, my mom.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Sort of like emotionally mentally left the home, right, which
left me really on my own in a very pivotal
time in life, right like high schools, when you are
figuring out like what you want to do, who you
want to be, where you want to go, You're making
a lot of big life decisions. And I always am
so thankful that I have that alone time because really
that's where I really figured out, like at an inner
strength that has never left me, has never failed me,
(29:40):
and also really helped me figure out that lesson and
of itself, which I think is the most important lesson
to learn in life. And then from there, I just
it gave me the confidence to pursue more solitude, which
again gave me more confidence in who I am and
what I want to do, especially when I went to
Paris after college. That's when I think I was alone
in a completely different way, right, Like I think if
you and if your privileged, not then you get the
(30:01):
opportunity to go to a different country where you don't
know anybody, where nobody knows you. That to me is
really where you'll figure out who you are and what
you want. It was there where I figured out where
I want to be a writer. I figured out the
kind of life that I wanted to have, at least
to that extent. It's evolved over time, right, But Yeah,
I think that there's such power in solitude. If you
(30:22):
can really prove to yourself that you can exist with
yourself for intended period of time, then nobody can take anything.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Away from you.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
It's a kind of clarity that I think is very
specific and again like lifelong, if you can find the
ways to tap back into it. But again, the strong foundation,
it'll always be there for you. No matter what happens
in life and life changes, there will be times that
you will be alone, right, And I think that that's
why it's so important as young as possible to get
comfortable at that.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, what were some of the fears around solitude or
like challenging moments? Yes, because I think sometimes we run
away from being alone with ourselves into relationship, be friendships
or romantic partners, because when you're alone, like these things
you have to face. Yeah, So, like, were there moments
like that, especially in this in a foreign country where yeah,
(31:12):
you don't speak the language.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah, no, there's just there's it feels emotionally unsafe.
It does in the beginning, right, because you're like, oh
my gosh, like where is my connection? Where is my
safety net?
Speaker 6 (31:23):
In people?
Speaker 4 (31:24):
It feels unsafe, And it does for a while. You
do kind of have to embrace that. Of course, the loneliness,
and of course like the mental health ramifications as well,
and all of those are real things, right, It's important
to be aware of them. But like if you can
power through and find a way to check in on yourself,
even if it.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Doesn't it's not long lasting.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
I was only in Paris for a couple of months
because I got to the point where it was having
damaging e back on my mental health, and so I
had to make a decision for myself. But even that
is empowering, right, Like I was able to build the
skills to be able to look into myself be like,
oh I'm not doing so hot. I need to make
decisions for myself. And that's such an informative experience that
I want everybody to have. Everyone deserves to have that
(32:02):
moment because it shows you your inner strengths.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
And you can check in with yourself and you get
to know yourself in a.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Way that is out of this world.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I really wish a lot more women had opportunities to
live alone, even culturally.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I wish it was more accepted.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yes, obviously it is a privilege to some extent, Yes,
but that alone time is just so transformative.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
And so the one thing I also want us.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
To talk about is your writing, right, because I think
having you on the show is incredible. Your article of friendship,
I think was just so insightful.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Thank you so much. Tell me more about what it.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Is you're currently writing, because I think our manneralist women
watching would benefit from it.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Yes, what am I not writing?
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Really, there's too many things going on. So my production company,
Creber Productions, we are constantly writing projects. So we currently
have some scripts that we're working on for a show
that I created called Namesake. I'm super excited about it.
Like we were talking about this off there about the
Kenyan industry, So that's a whole other episode if you
guys want to tell and tell that was a whole
other conversation. But I feel like comedies, especially female driven comedies,
(33:10):
are not a really populated space. So Namesake is about
two women, a mother and a daughter, who find themselves
at a crossroads and they're thrown together after a long
period of estrangement. So chaos and healing and sue, lots
of funny messiness.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Hopefully it goes somewhere within day. So I'm working on
that in other projects as well. I'm also working on
my first novel. So actually after yeah for me, So actually,
after I wrote that Friendship, I say, I am a
publisher in New York, retil I want me to say
if I'd be interested in writing a.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Novel exploring similar themes. So yeah, I'm working on a
novel now.
Speaker 4 (33:45):
It's about a Kenyan American girl who survives a terrorist
attack in Niro. We kind of falla Westgate, and shortly
thereafter she moves to college to the US to start over.
But she's quickly there learned that coming home again isn't
as easy at advertised, and you can't run away from
your trauma.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Not gonna work.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
So that's low but it's coming together. I'm super excited
about that. And then yeah, then I have my blog
Bad African, where I'm exploring a lot of the things
that we've talked about today identity relationships, also reframing Africa,
not the one that folks outside of the continency on CNN,
but a real modern Africa and our real modern experiences
that we're struggling with, that we're negotiating with. And then yeah,
(34:22):
then I'm constantly sort of writing outside of that. So
I write part time for a platform called Blavity. It's fantastic,
please check us out Blade dot com. And then yeah,
and then pieces outside of that every now and.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Again as well.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
And this is why you have to have boundaries, because you.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Have time, and you know too, you're on camera too,
because I also have my platform movie Boss, that I
am host with my boyfriend Will. We talk about all
things movies and TV and Kenyan beyond. This takes a
lot where like, I know your audience is watching this
and they're like, oh my god, like so organic, But
there's so much that goes into this, right, your incredible
team reaching out to me. We talked about this for weeks.
(34:58):
There's so much planning. This takes a lot out of you.
It's important that you have a reset. So for me,
that's imperative to have in my schedule.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And so for as we wrap up for the woman
who's watching, yes, who think something is wrong with her
because she doesn't have a as many friends as she thinks,
or is socialized to think that she should have, or
that her friendships don't look like what she's been socialized
to think, you know, what we see in social media,
(35:28):
or that she just doesn't have friends. Yes, and maybe
you're thinking something is wrong with you? Yes, what would
you want to tell that woman?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna tell her to this same.
Speaker 6 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:38):
First of all, girl, that'sn's wrong with you. Everybody is
going through what you're going through. They are just projecting
something very different on the channels where we can see
them publicly, like social media. Right, what you're going through
is normal. Friendships come and go. I promise you life
is sure, but it's really long too. There will be
times in your life where you'll be more social, There'll
be times where you're less social. Will come in and
(36:00):
out of your life. There's so much more ahead. Friendships
will come back to your life as well. You do you, baby,
You keep yourself at the forefront, keep trusting your God,
keep trust putting yourself out there. The tides will turn.
They always do.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
I feel like we need to have Koi with us,
even on the days when we're not believing in ourselves.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Should I have yea, yeah on Monday?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Too?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Great?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Right? Yeah?
Speaker 6 (36:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
But thank you so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
The writing that you do, it's courageous, but it pays off,
like thanks so many people that you're reaching.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I embarrass myself so that you don't have to. So
that's my slog, and it's.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
Really hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Of course, if you want to connect with Koi and
all of her writing, check out the descriptions their links
and if you resonated with this episode, shares with all
the mandalist women in your life or almost mandalist women,
and don't forget to subscribe to that you don't miss
out on the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com