April 29, 2025 • 50 mins
On this episode of The Founder's Sandbox, Brenda speaks with Dr. Keith Dorsey – Keith is joining to announce the launch of his book on May 6, 2025 “The Boardroom Journey Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table”.
Dr. Keith D. Dorsey is an internationally recognized governance expert and NACD Directorship 100™ honoree who equips senior leaders with proven strategies to secure and excel in board roles. With over 25 years of corporate leadership experience and active board service spanning private, municipal, university, and nonprofit sectors, he delivers engaging presentations that blend research-based insights with actionable guidance. Dr. Dorsey speaks on corporate governance, board effectiveness, and strategic leadership, helping organizations build stronger boards and executives navigate their path to the boardroom. His book, The Boardroom Journey, offers practical guidance for expanding boardroom impact and success. Read more about Keith’s experience.
You can find out more about Keith and his upcoming book at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-keith-d-dorsey-798a2681/
https://www.boardroomjourney.com/book
Transcript:
00:04
Hi, I'm pleased to announce something very special to me, a new subscription-based service through Next Act Advisors that allows members exclusive access to personal industry insights and bespoke
00:32
corporate governance knowledge. This comes in the form of blogs, personal book recommendations, and early access to the founder's sandbox podcast episodes before they released to the public. If you want more white glove information on building your startup with information like what was in today's episode, sign up with the link in the show notes to enjoy being a special member of Next Act Advisors.
01:01
As a thank you to Founders Sandbox listeners, you can use code SANDBOX25 at checkout to enjoy 25 % off your membership costs. Thank you.
01:20
So welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. I am Brenda McCabe, your host and this monthly podcast. We're now in our third season and my podcast, the Founder's Sandbox, reaches entrepreneurs, business owners with guests. And these guests teach us about building resilient, scalable and purpose-driven enterprises, all with great corporate governance. My mission is simple.
01:49
with this podcast as I really want to assist through my content and my guests, those entrepreneurs and business owners and building the scalable, well-governed and resilient businesses. And I like to have in my guests, corporate directors, primarily to speak about their own experience sitting on corporate boards and building with great corporate governance. I like to think that we can use the
02:16
power of the private enterprise, be it small, medium, or large, to create change for a better world. And we do some of the storytelling in a fictitious sandbox on the founders or the corporate directors' origin story. I am absolutely delighted that this month I have Dr. Keith Dorsey as my guest. So welcome, Keith. It's great to be here. Thank you, Brenda. Thank you so much.
02:45
While you check many boxes, you're joining today because you have authored a book. It has a launch date of May 6, 2025, so just around the corner. And the title of
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Hi, I'm pleased to announce something veryspecial to me, a new subscription-based service
(00:25):
through Next Act Advisors that allows membersexclusive access to personal industry insights
and bespoke corporate governance knowledge.This comes in the form of blogs, personal book
recommendations, and early access to the founder'ssandbox podcast episodes before they released
to the public. If you want more white gloveinformation on building your startup with information
(00:52):
like what was in today's episode, sign up withthe link in the show notes to enjoy being a
special member of Next Act Advisors. As a thankyou to Founders Sandbox listeners, you can
use code SANDBOX25 at checkout to enjoy 25 %off your membership costs. Thank you.
(01:20):
So welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. Iam Brenda McCabe, your host and this monthly
podcast. We're now in our third season andmy podcast, the Founder's Sandbox, reaches
entrepreneurs, business owners with guests.And these guests teach us about building resilient,
(01:42):
scalable and purpose-driven enterprises, allwith great corporate governance. My mission
is simple. with this podcast as I really wantto assist through my content and my guests,
those entrepreneurs and business owners andbuilding the scalable, well-governed and resilient
businesses. And I like to have in my guests,corporate directors, primarily to speak about
(02:08):
their own experience sitting on corporate boardsand building with great corporate governance.
I like to think that we can use the power ofthe private enterprise, be it small, medium,
or large, to create change for a better world.And we do some of the storytelling in a fictitious
sandbox on the founders or the corporate directors'origin story. I am absolutely delighted that
(02:34):
this month I have Dr. Keith Dorsey as my guest.So welcome, Keith. It's great to be here. Thank
you, Brenda. Thank you so much. While you checkmany boxes, you're joining today because you
have authored a book. It has a launch date ofMay 6, 2025, so just around the corner. And
(02:59):
the title of your book is The Boardroom Journey,Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat
at the Table. So kudos to you. Thank you. For,wow, you're a busy person. We'll get to that
later. you know, where did you find the timeand the courage to publish a book, launch
(03:19):
it in today's environment? And we'll get tothose questions later. So for my guest, Dr.
Keith Dorsey and I go back many years, actuallyprior to you being a doctor, right? You check
many boxes as a guest. You are a seasoned boardmember, executive advisor, informal coach,
(03:45):
and researcher. I love that. And it was inpreparing your doctoral dissertation that you
discovered that, I'm going to quote here, Iwas reading a compelling study on the effects
of gender diversity on corporate governance. And you basically repurposed your original
(04:06):
dissertation to provide actionable guidance on increasing boardroom diversity. And when
you switched your dissertation, that topic thatyou had to defend, otherwise you wouldn't be
a doctor today, right? Was the idea for thebook that is launching on May 6th. So again,
(04:27):
welcome to the podcast and thank you for joiningme. So we chose as a, my guests know, we chose
a title because I at Next Act Advisors am aboutbuilding purpose, purpose driven companies.
The title that Keith and I came up with is,you know, bridging gaps for better governance.
(04:47):
So Keith, share with us kind of your originstory. Go back all the way, although I'm gonna
encourage my listeners to purchase your book,but go back to your origin story. You nailed
it in like one page in the book, but tell uswhere your origins and what was your, not only
(05:08):
your boardroom journey, but your journey towhere you are today. Thank you. I often tell
people, Brenda, that this is my third chapter.You know, the first chapter was the US military.
actually enlisted in the military in betweenmy junior year of high school that summer and
my senior year of high school. I knew beforeI started my first day of my senior year of
(05:32):
high school when I was leaving for basic trainingin the Air Force. so my first chapter was the
Air Force for a number of years. was stationed in Florida, the Republic of Panama, and the
United Kingdom for a number of years. And thenI got impatient and decided I wanted to get
out. I had a successful early career in theAir Force. And I said, if I can be this successful
(05:58):
in the US Air Force, which is like a large corporation, imagine what I can do in an actual corporation.
I set out on this journey to explore sales.And that led me to my second chapter, which
was corporate America. And I worked for almost30 years in corporate America, primarily
(06:19):
as a turnaround specialist in the area of sales.I would take over the toughest sales organizations
within these large companies and really liftthe hood up and figure out were they having
a people product or process problem within theorganization and then begin to tweak the areas.
(06:43):
And I worked for two large companies, Fortune500 or Fortune 1000 for almost 17 years and
then a Fortune 500 for almost 12 years. AndI was just a strategic growth expert. I turn
around teams and I would also start teams withinthe organization. to come up with ways for
(07:06):
double digit growth and oftentimes triple digitgrowth. And so that's what I did for almost
30 years. And then in January of 2019, I enteredmy third chapter, which was supposed to be
semi-retirement in this portfolio career. unfortunately, I failed miserably at retirement
and what I've been doing for the past six yearsin this almost seven years and this portfolio
(07:34):
environment as executive advisory work. I also started serving on boards in which today I
served on five boards, two private, one municipality,one university, and one nonprofit. And then
I decided to go back to school to get my doctorate.And so I went back to school at the University
(07:58):
of Southern California and pursued my doctoratein organizational change and leadership. all
my research was in the, you know, at thispoint, at that point, all my research was
in the lack of gender and ethnic diversity oncorporate boards. And so- So, and that's
(08:21):
fascinating that you chose your doctoral kindof dissertation and then focus around organizational-
strategy, right? Yes. Was that based at all on your 30 years of sales strategy? Were there
any analogs? I wonder. There was. Part of whatI would do whenever I would take over a situation
(08:48):
that required me to turn it around, like Isaid before, was to really look at the organization.
To look at many components of the organization,people, product, processes. artifacts that
are going on, the subcultures, the cultures.And so I've always been fascinated about it.
And I did things innately and I wanted to learnthe science behind many of the things that
(09:12):
I innately did. And after really diving intoresearch and studies around organizational
change and leadership, I wish I would haveknown many of those things that I figured out
the science behind back when I was. and an actualexecutive doing it. But nevertheless, by learning
(09:33):
it now and using that in my governance roles,I still have the opportunity to put the science
behind what I'm doing as a board member. And I tell people, whether it's as a board
member or my researcher or my writing rolesthat I have today, that I'm bilingual. I speak
(09:55):
business. And I speak academia. And boardroomlingo, right? Which combines a bit of the two.
I like how you use the word science. You know, we were chatting before actually getting
on air today. We've known each other primarilybecause we're both members of the National
(10:18):
Association of Group Directors, right? And I've been a member since, I don't know, 2016.
I don't know how long you've been a member, I, your book is truly a kind of a North star.
wish I would have had it when I began my boardjourney. I actually started my board journey
(10:40):
while in Europe and I got onto public boardand I went, Holy cow, I better get trained
and went to the local equivalent of the NACDin Spain called Instituto de Consejeros Administradores,
ICA. So for my listeners, I do want to do ashout out if you are intentional and want
(11:02):
to learn more about what the journey is togetting on first or subsequent boards. The
book that Keith has authored is launching onthe sixth. And there is a third section.
And specifically, it's around your capital thatyou need to kind of package. It's called commitment
(11:27):
capital. It's trademarked. We're going to getinto that but it's truly unique because I've
read a lot of board books over my 12, 13 yearsand I have not seen anything as unique as this.
So shout out to you. Thank you. Okay. I wantedto also, you know, ask you what made you decide
(11:54):
to turn that dissertation into a book? Whatwas the, because writing a book is not for
the faint of heart. So it was not on my bucketlist. So what happened? You know, this is kind
of inspirational for me. You know, what madeyou go, all right, I've got to get a book out
there. Well, I, this has been a serendipitousjourney, you know, just even going to get
(12:17):
my doctorate was something that I kind of stumbledinto. I was dealing with a tiny bit of imposter
syndrome and in dealing with that, I assignedsomething to myself to get rid of my imposter
syndrome. And I said, it's hard to get into a doctorate program. I just want to see what
(12:40):
I, if I can even get in. And so in Keith Dorseyfashion, I probably went a little overboard
and I applied to seven different universitiesand eight different doctoral programs. And
But I didn't realize in filling out all thoseapplications, which was crazy, was that I
needed a lot of former executives that I workedwith and other CEOs and, like I said, other
(13:08):
executives to serve as a reference for me. SoI collected 15 people that I would use for
all those applications, two or three at a time. And they wrote. I guess great things about
me because I got into all seven universities,all eight programs, but I really just wanted
(13:29):
to boost my ego. I didn't really want to goback to get my doctorate. I needed to solve
for my little bit of imposter syndrome thatI was dealing with. And, but when I did enough
for were 15 accountability partners saying,which one are you getting in? Which one are
you going to choose? I wrote you a great reference.hope you choose the one that I wrote the reference
(13:51):
for. And I said, oh no, now what? I gotta getin. Now I really have to do it. have to get
my doctorate. So I really didn't have a strongenough why to do this to begin with. But
what made me, once I got in and I chose thisproblem of practice, which was my second problem
(14:13):
of practice. My first was around shareholderprimacy on corporate boards. And I stumbled
into this problem of practice, which was aroundthe lack of gender and ethnic diversity on
corporate boards. But I ended up going downthis path of corporate board diversity. And
(14:35):
I just told you this wonderful story and forgotyour question. But you know what made you decide
to publish a book? So as I was going throughthis program, and right beginning all this
research and I really got into my research probablya little too much and I was sitting with my
(14:59):
dissertation chair and she said, Keith, there'ssomething you need to know. I said, what's
that? She said, a good dissertation is a donedissertation. And my friend, you have way too
much research out there and you've written somuch, you have to narrow your focus. And I
(15:19):
said, give me some examples. She said, you know,pick an industry, pick an ethnicity group,
pick a gender, do something. You have to narrowthis down. And I really pushed back a lot.
And one of the sayings at the University ofSouthern California in this program, organizational
change and leadership doctoral program was trustthe process. And so she said, Keith, I know
(15:44):
you're pushing back. I know you believe in allthis research you uncovered. but you have
to trust the process. You have to narrow itdown. I said, okay, if I narrow it down, what
do I do with all this research over here andall this research over there? She said, write
a book. And that's how I ended up getting tothis point where I actually wrote a book with
(16:07):
all this rich research before my dissertation. And then I successfully completed my dissertation.
had all this information. And I did somethingmost people wouldn't do immediately after getting
my doctorate. I dove into more research studies.You're kidding. interviewed formally and informally
(16:27):
hundreds of women directors who have made that career shift into corporate, into being
an independent director. And I got so muchrich, even more information on their barriers,
their enablers, their career. and how theywere able to make that shift and successfully
(16:53):
get on corporate boards. And many of these womenhave been on boards for decades. that's how
I ended up where I am today with this rich data. And I would ask you to describe the four
characters that are in your book. and theirnames and where were they in the career, right?
(17:18):
I wanted to share. I wanted to take a uniqueapproach, know, any books out there and many
board readiness programs out there that willshare a lot of theory with you a lot of information
that is rich that we need to know if you'regoing to be a student of your profession.
As you mentioned before, I highly recommend everyone interested in being a board director
(17:42):
to go to some sort of board readiness organizationand get your education and then get your certification
if you can as well. And so in really divinginto all the women that have successfully
(18:02):
made this transition and the hundreds of interviews,informal and both formal interviews that I
conducted, I started to see themes. in theircareer at certain ages and certain sections
of their careers. And I took a lot of that dataand I created these four fictitious women that
(18:23):
I would use and talk about as a part of a casestudy and examples so that when you read a
chapter and all this theory and all this information,you could then listen to how they took the
information from that chapter and executed onit. And so The four women that I created, the
(18:44):
first one is Lauren. She's 25 and she's a brandnew manager in a corporation. She's actually
been with the corporation for three years asa sales executive and got promoted into our
very first sales management position, entrylevel sales management position. That's Lauren.
Then I have Denise, who is a brand new seniormanager in a firm. And then I have Michelle
(19:12):
who, and Denise is 40 and a brand new seniormanager. And then I have Michelle who's a 55
year old executive in a fortune 500 corporation.And, and she has said that she wants to retire
in the next three to five years. And then lastly,I have Sharon who is a 62 year old CEO of her
(19:39):
family business and it's a set. She's the secondgeneration of the family business. She's been
the CEO for the past 12 years and she's goingto turn the business over to her much younger
brother and who will take over as the CEO. Allfour women said at some point they're going
(19:59):
to want to serve on a private or a public corporateboard. So what should the 25, 40 year old,
55 year old and 62 year old do at this pointof their career to best prepare themselves
for board service? How should a 25-year-oldreally execute her career? And instead of taking,
(20:22):
like many of us have done, a promotion forthe sake of a promotion because they want me
and because it pays more, instead of just doingthat but really looking at beginning with the
end in mind. I ultimately want to be an independentdirector. So how should I orchestrate my career?
(20:42):
How should the 40 year old make a few more tweaksbefore she is at that level where she wants
to serve as an independent director? And thenthis person who is actually thinking about
retiring in the next three to five years, whattweaks? Should she make over the next three
to five years the be most attractive and mostprepared and known in the industry to be an
(21:06):
independent director? And lastly, someone whohas served on her own board as an executive
director and CEO for the past 12 years, butnever has been an independent director. What
are the things she should be doing right beforeshe turns the business over? to really show
(21:29):
up perfectly as an independent director versusan executive director moving forward. Thank
you. While the characters are women and thebook has a tagline, what is that again?
The guidance? The guidance for women to securea seat at the table by no means is this a book
(21:54):
that solely can be read by women. I think itspeaks to the other gender. And what I found
really unique is that you had characters atdifferent times and moments and section moments
and their careers and how to really be intentional. My favorite chapter, I will tell you, is chapter
(22:17):
three. Why? Find your why. That's the nameof the chapter. Yes. And it is in alignment
with the work I do with business owners andfounders. It's like, what is your North Star?
Oftentimes they created the business, they'repurpose driven, but articulating the why, you
(22:38):
know, why did you go out and, you know, workthese hours and put your, you know, re-mortgage
your house to build this business. Findingthat chapter, you know, find your why. And
then you're probably the research you did withthe over a hundred interviews. You ideated
this, but I'd love to for you to share. AndI think it's very important of all your chapters.
(23:01):
This is for me. I think if I were an aspiring director, independent director, this would
be the one that most resonates with me. Findyour way. Tell me a bit more about that chapter.
It did for me, Brenda, as well for two reasons.One, because of the research that I uncovered
and the qualitative interviews that I conducted. I found out that those that were successful
(23:25):
at making that transition from being an executiveor a high-powered government official to
actually being a board member, they did findtheir why. And I also, you know, in this chapter,
this third chapter that I'm in, I became amanaging partner and a practice leader of CEO
(23:47):
and board services at a global executive searchfirm. And I would have meetings with many
executives who will actually say, Keith, I wantto serve on corporate boards. And I will ask
them why. And they really couldn't answer. And I would ask them specific questions about
what type of board, private or public. And they would say, Keith, I don't care. Just
(24:10):
get me on a paid board. And that's not goingto work. And it doesn't work. And so I dedicated
a whole chapter to finding your why, because as aspiring board members or board members
seeking their second or third board, and theykind of found their first board because someone
tapped them on the shoulders and said, we wantyou, but they don't know how to replicate
(24:36):
getting on their next board because no one'stapping them on their shoulders right now.
I found that by getting people to reflect on Number one, what brings them joy? What
brings them joy in this world? Life's too short.And when you're interviewing for a board role,
(24:59):
when you're interviewing for something thatbrings you joy versus the person who is equally
as qualified as interviewing against you forthat role, when you show up for something that
brings you joy, you light up the room. And thatenergy, that person interviewing you picks
up on it and you end up having this banter and they understand that, you know, this seems
(25:25):
to be more important to this person versus thatexecutive. You all are exceptional executives.
Your CVs are outstanding, but sometimes justthe fact that you're interviewing some for
something that brings you joy could be the differentiator.The other thing is the reflect on on your
(25:46):
why and when you are successful, understandingwhy you're successful. When you do fail and
you feel miserable, understanding why you failedand why you felt miserable. And by spending
that time reflecting on that, you'll begin tofigure out your secret sauce. You'll begin
to figure out your superpowers. You'll beginto figure out the value that you actually bring
(26:12):
to organizations because you uncover when youare successful, why you're successful, and
when you fail, why you fail, and when you feelmiserable, why you feel miserable. Most people
don't take the time to reflect. And then asexecutives, we have conducted many of these
vision, mission, and value exercises for ourcompanies. We've met them, we've written them.
(26:38):
And we've done all these things for our companies,but how often do we actually bring that home
and transfer those skills to figure out ourown personal vision, mission, and values? And
when you take the time to do that in this findyour why period of time, you can begin to
(26:58):
figure that out and run every single situationthrough those funnels. And that will help you
really find your sweet spot. And then you'reonly interviewing in areas where you can truly
bring value. And so that's why I wrote thissection. Wow. It sounds like a lot of work.
(27:20):
All right. So your book, think, almost it'sa guidebook. So again, we have the four characters.
You can pick up the book and read chapters thatdon't need to be read from the sequencer order.
Talk to me. I think was really unique about commitment capital. There are five types you've
(27:42):
identified. And I never read or thought ofa concept like this when kind of packaging
my board credentials or others. Speak to meabout the commitment capital. Thanks. You don't
mind, Brenna. I'll touch briefly on the otherfour, you know, and then I'll spend more time
on commitment capital. But The two capitalsthat you typically hear about when you go through
(28:05):
any board readiness program, as one is humancapital and that talks about your education,
your expertise, your experience throughout your career. That's the human capital side
of things. And then you'll, we talk often aboutthe social capital. That's your network, the
people you know that, and boards are interestedin your human capital and your social capital.
(28:29):
The social capital side, they want your contacts.They want your connections. They want your
help with the M &A and finding funding anddifferent things like that, finding the right
talent. Your social capital is a big part ofit. And your social capital can help you get
on a board as well. But those are the two thatyou often hear about. The other three that
(28:55):
I wrote about, one is director capital. Youdon't hear much about that one. And that's
similar to human capital. All these skills thatyou accumulated in education, you accumulated
throughout your career that helped you alongyour career. Director capital is more narrow.
And what are the experiences and educationlike board readiness training that you need
(29:20):
specifically to become a director? And so that'sdirector capital. Then I dove into cultural
capital, which you don't hear much about. Andcultural capital really looks at from the
back when you were five years old in elementaryschool, middle school, high school, college,
and the experiences and the people you weresurrounded by that you mirrored, you emulated,
(29:47):
and the obstacles that you innately had to overcomeback in those early years. that you called
upon either innately or on purpose intentionally throughout your career to get you through
some rough times through your education periodand through your career. People that can
(30:08):
call back and understand their cultural capitalcan use that to get on boards. That's cultural
capital. And then the fifth capital was themissing link. And that's about commitment.
the ability to do the things you need to doin order to get something done and call upon
(30:29):
that. And I can give you an example. I havetwo different groups of women and directors
and executives that have very similar outstandingCVs. And they all have gone through a board
readiness program and they all have completedsome sort of certification. This group found
(30:54):
their way on corporate boards. This group havebeen really trying to get on boards for up
to five years to no avail. But when you lookat them on paper, education experience and
success wise, they look similar. And the missingingredient that I found via research was
(31:15):
those who got on boards did something differentlythan those who didn't. And the majority of
the ones who haven't found their way on boards,when they completed their programs, they were
proud of themselves. They took copious notesthroughout the program. And they said, done.
Let those board positions begin to come my direction. And those who actually ended up getting on
(31:42):
boards, who also took copious notes, they were studious throughout the process, but then
they went back home and they executed. Theystarted to make trade-offs in their lives and
they started to do things differently. Someof them gave up TV on Wednesday nights and
they no longer watch the three Chicago shows. You know, traded that in so they could begin
(32:07):
to do things differently and find the time todo that reflection work and find the time
to network differently and find the time. Andso they started to hold themselves accountable
via their commitment capital to get things done.To this date, I still have people that will
(32:27):
say, Keith, I want to get on a private or apublic board. And I would look at their background
and I said, you know what you really need rightnow? You really need to serve on a nonprofit
board to get some human capital experience whilesurrounding yourself with some incredible social
capital that will see you in action. And theysaid, Keith, I don't have time for a nonprofit
(32:51):
board. Now, the NACD says the average boardmember, independent director, spends 250 hours
a year on each board. You're telling me youwant me to help you find a private or public
board and you don't have time to serve on anonprofit. Let me tell you, you don't have
time to be on a for-profit board and you needto find your commitment capital to make the
(33:19):
necessary trade-offs so you do have the timesto dot your I's and cross your T's. That's
what commitment capital is all about. And thatwas the missing ingredient. I love it. So
you coin it the missing link. the analog withbusiness owners and founders is grit. Yes.
Right. Thunder, but I get I get it. So I, Iencourage those that are aspiring for a first
(33:49):
or subsequent board positions to take a lookat that. Now, I'm going to ask a question that
potentially has in the current climate. Andagain, this is April of 2025. There's been
a lot of backlash in our current administrationto remove anything with the acronym DEI, diversity,
(34:12):
equity, inclusion, remove it from position,hiring, anything that actually is receiving
federal funding. I'm curious, you also havein your book coined a term called optimal
diversity. while I think you had this term in all the research, right, in your original
(34:39):
writing of this book, could optimal diversitybe that analog to the downfall of DEI? I think
so. And unfortunately, what's going on in today'ssociety, mostly in the US, but even several
other places in the world, is that organizations,in my opinion, have confused the confused.
(35:06):
And they are saying we need to move away fromdiversity and move towards meritocracy. And
that we need to get away from checking the box and move to bringing merit back. And the unfortunate
part is diversity, equity, and has always had merit as the prerequisite. It's never
(35:38):
been about checking the box or just bringingin an unqualified individual so that we can
look from an observable diversity standpointdifferently. It's really been about one,
the prerequisite and the table stakes. ismerit. And then two, to be able to fish in
(36:03):
different ponds, to bring in different people. So ultimately, we can have that cognitive
diversity or diversity of thought brought intothe room. And unfortunately, because of this
reason for bringing parody and make certainthat your boards and your C suites and your
(36:25):
companies resembled the stakeholders that youwere going after for all obvious reasons.
Unfortunately, the message has gotten lostas to why we want to do this. And it's really
about mitigating risk, disruption, findingblue oceans, and you mitigate your risk by
(36:47):
having a representation of that diversity ofthought to protect your business and to understand
all the stakeholders that you're trying to serve. And, the prerequisite was always merit. And
so I share with people that meritocracy anddiversity truly can and does coexist, do coexist.
(37:09):
And so optimal diversity is the combination of observable or demographic diversity coupled
with diversity of thought is optimal diversity.And that applies to every human being. when
they begin to reflect and to peel back theircultural, human, social, all those capitals
(37:33):
I mentioned before, they can begin to presentthemselves in such a way that they can demonstrate
their optimal diversity. As a managing partner and a practice leader, a CEO in board services,
I will spend time with executives one-on-onefrom all walks of life and coach them. And
(37:55):
I remember when I typically would sit down witha white male executive during this period of
time, and I would tell them my story and whatmy background was on and my research around
my doctorate. They will start off because they'renow interviewing with a search professional
(38:16):
that can help them get on boards. And they willstart to interview off like this. And then
as I begin to tell them my background and myresearch, they would end up like this and angry.
And then I would talk to them about optimaldiversity and they would start to loosen up
and then they go right back to this. And I rememberin one of my conversations with a Fortune 500
(38:38):
executive, a white male, and I talked to himabout optimal diversity and he said, wait a
second. He said, Keith, I grew up on a farmand I went to this sort of school and he jumped
out of the car. like that. he said, I do bringdiversity to the table. And I said, yes, you
(39:00):
do. But I've never had to present myself thatway before. And what you just did was you taught
me to reach into myself and figure out how Idifferentiate myself from any other type of
executive. And I never had to do that before.And that's optimal diversity. Absolutely. So
(39:21):
if you heard it here on the founder sandbox,optional diversity refers to ensuring that
observable demographic diversity is coupledwith diversity of thought. And meritocracy
and diversity are not opposing aims, but insteadare symbiotic and share a common goal. So thank
(39:43):
you, Keith, for developing the concept of optimaldiversity. And I must read. coming out on
May 6. I would like you to have your timeon air to provide my listeners with how they
may contact you because not only are you launchingyour book on May 6, the boardroom journey.
(40:09):
I do believe you have one on one coaching as well as you do speaking opportunities.
Keith, how's it best to contact you? Well,you can find me on my website, is boardroomjourney.com.
Okay. And my email is keith at boardroomjourney.com.You can also find me on LinkedIn under Dr.
(40:37):
Keith D. Dorsey. And so those are, you know,several different ways you could find me. And
when you go to boardroomjourney.com, I'm reallyattacking this approach of making certain
that we take board governance very seriously and helping to equip individuals at various
(41:00):
stages of their career to be best prepared forboard service. I want everyone, as I mentioned
before, to go through some sort of board readinessprogram with the many different type of board
readiness programs out there. But then onceyou've done that, I focus on three areas.
(41:21):
One is with, I'm sorry, Brenda, you want toask me a question? No, that's okay, one. One
is with the boards themselves. I'm gonna challengevia their consulting offerings, challenge
boards to really take a look at their boardmembers they have today. And really, many
boards will have skilled matrices. Yes. Andso they will look at the skills matrix and
(41:44):
maybe highlight 12 different functional skills.And then they want to outline their board members
and how they rate those different skills. Andthen they stop there. And I consider the skills
matrix to be the top 10 % of a iceberg. OK.And that's the part you can see. The bottom
(42:07):
90 % below the surface is around their competencies.And in our consulting, I challenge boards
to actually measure the competencies of theirboard members as well. And those are the things
below the surface, their behavioral traits andthings like that, because you wanna have the
right mix of independent directors on yourboard. And then look at where they have a
(42:34):
redundancy of experiences in their functionalareas, skill sets, as well as competencies.
and think about their strategy moving forwardand where do they have gaps? And so that's
one half of what, you know, Boardroom Journeydoes. The other part is with individuals.
And what I have uncovered is that many peoplewill go through a program, but they don't execute,
(43:00):
as I mentioned before, a commitment capital. So one of the offerings we have is you get
an accountability partner. And with the...the accountability side of things, the accountability
partner will meet up with you and have 30 minuteone-on-ones with you, almost unlimited one-on-ones
(43:20):
throughout the year, the numbers so high. Butyou cannot get the next meeting with your accountability
partner until you have proven you've done thethings that we talked about in the prior meeting.
And so that's an offering. And then the otheroffering, is six months of one-on-one coaching,
(43:44):
two times for one hour each time, twice a month. And that one-on-one coaching is taking a lot
of the principles and action items from thebook, The Boardroom Journey. And instead of
doing it in asynchronous sort of fashion, we'regoing through it together one-on-one to make
certain that you begin to do the things differentlyto get different results. The saying is successful
(44:09):
people do what unsuccessful people don't do.And the goal there with the one-on-one coaching
is to have you do the things that you need todo in order to get to where you would like
to go. And so that's what the boardroom journeyas a company and a practice actually does for
individuals. Thank you for sharing that. Thiswill be in the show notes, And I'm very excited
(44:34):
to. provide some exposure and my listeners,particularly those that are considering your
own boardroom journey. I'm going to switch gearsback to the founder sandbox. I am passionate
about resilience, purpose-driven and scalablegrowth. And I love to do a round the round
(44:58):
with my guests and what does that meaning ofresilience mean to you? Each of my guests has
a different... Yeah. So please. me, resiliencecomes down to when you truly have a true north
and you believe in your true north, having theintestinal fortitude to do things that you
need to do in order to get it done and notgiving up right when you're at that point where
(45:26):
things can actually turn around. That's to mewhat resilience is about. But you first got
to know your true north. have the intestinalfortitude, encourage to stick with it until
you hit them. Thank you. How about purpose driven?The title of your episode is purpose, Yes.
(45:48):
Bridging gaps for better governance. But beyondthat, what is purpose driven? What has made
you be so purposeful? That's a great question,Brenda. I would have to say right back to
that true north, know, finding your why and really spending the time to think about where
(46:10):
are there unmet needs in the marketplace. And, you know, I've worked with some incredible
organizations and sometimes we are too insularand we come up with some great things. that
we created that we think the market should beinterested in. And the market says, you know
(46:31):
what, that was cute, but no. And so I feelwhen you start with from the client's perspective
and you uncover where there are unmet needs,then and only then can you truly be purposeful
in meeting those unmet needs. And that feelsgood here and you're solving something that's
(46:54):
needed in the I get it. You heard it here.Q. Dorsey's definition of purposefulness. Scalable.
So I think that what you have done here bypublishing what was originally your dissertation
and then building consulting a practice aroundis actually scalable. What's scalable for you?
(47:18):
You know, something that can have a process. Okay, repeatable process around it. I've
watched businesses succeed and then fail becausethey built something that was needed for in
(47:39):
the marketplace, but they allowed themselves to get off the beaten track because they're
trying to be all things for everybody. And for me, when a business is truly scalable,
they found something, they met an unmet need and they know their sweet spot and they stay
(47:59):
in their sweet spot. Now, do they disrupt themselves to stay ahead on the bell shaped curve? Absolutely.
But they build something that has a repeatableprocess and they can keep their margins down
because they're not just being there for everybody.To me, that's what scalable is all about. Find
(48:20):
in their sweet spot and execute it. Excellent.Fantastic. question. Did you have fun in the
sandbox today, Keith? I actually did. The problemhere, Brenda, is I just enjoy having conversations
with you. so we did that via podcast. We didwhat we normally do, but via podcast. That's
(48:43):
excellent. So I had a blast. Thank you. Andwhat about you? I always have fun. I love
the fact that my guests can tell their stories. They're very authentic. You're very authentic.
You live your purpose. actually, that's why my guests come to me, right? And say, is
(49:09):
the podcast right now, a growing channel. AndI do have a large fellowship now. You can also
follow me on YouTube. to my guests, I hopeyou enjoyed this month's. podcast. Actually,
this month is a lot I published a lot aboutcorporate governance the month of April. So
(49:30):
if you like this episode with Dr. Keith Dorsey,sign up for the monthly release of this podcast,
the founder sandbox where my guests are founders,business owners, corporate board directors,
authors. And you'll learn about how to buildstrong governance for resilient, scalable and
(49:51):
purpose driven companies to make profits forgood. So thank you for joining me again, Keith.
It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Hi, I'm pleased to announce something veryspecial to me, a new subscription-based service
(00:25):
through Next Act Advisors that allows membersexclusive access to personal industry insights
and bespoke corporate governance knowledge.This comes in the form of blogs, personal book
recommendations, and early access to the founder'ssandbox podcast episodes before they released
to the public. If you want more white gloveinformation on building your startup with information
(00:52):
like what was in today's episode, sign up withthe link in the show notes to enjoy being a
special member of Next Act Advisors. As a thankyou to Founders Sandbox listeners, you can
use code SANDBOX25 at checkout to enjoy 25 %off your membership costs. Thank you.
(01:20):
So welcome back to the Founder's Sandbox. Iam Brenda McCabe, your host and this monthly
podcast. We're now in our third season andmy podcast, the Founder's Sandbox, reaches
entrepreneurs, business owners with guests.And these guests teach us about building resilient,
(01:42):
scalable and purpose-driven enterprises, allwith great corporate governance. My mission
is simple. with this podcast as I really wantto assist through my content and my guests,
those entrepreneurs and business owners andbuilding the scalable, well-governed and resilient
businesses. And I like to have in my guests,corporate directors, primarily to speak about
(02:08):
their own experience sitting on corporate boardsand building with great corporate governance.
I like to think that we can use the power ofthe private enterprise, be it small, medium,
or large, to create change for a better world.And we do some of the storytelling in a fictitious
sandbox on the founders or the corporate directors'origin story. I am absolutely delighted that
(02:34):
this month I have Dr. Keith Dorsey as my guest.So welcome, Keith. It's great to be here. Thank
you, Brenda. Thank you so much. While you checkmany boxes, you're joining today because you
have authored a book. It has a launch date ofMay 6, 2025, so just around the corner. And
(02:59):
the title of your book is The Boardroom Journey,Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat
at the Table. So kudos to you. Thank you. For,wow, you're a busy person. We'll get to that
later. you know, where did you find the timeand the courage to publish a book, launch
(03:19):
it in today's environment? And we'll get tothose questions later. So for my guest, Dr.
Keith Dorsey and I go back many years, actuallyprior to you being a doctor, right? You check
many boxes as a guest. You are a seasoned boardmember, executive advisor, informal coach,
(03:45):
and researcher. I love that. And it was inpreparing your doctoral dissertation that you
discovered that, I'm going to quote here, Iwas reading a compelling study on the effects
of gender diversity on corporate governance. And you basically repurposed your original
(04:06):
dissertation to provide actionable guidance on increasing boardroom diversity. And when
you switched your dissertation, that topic thatyou had to defend, otherwise you wouldn't be
a doctor today, right? Was the idea for thebook that is launching on May 6th. So again,
(04:27):
welcome to the podcast and thank you for joiningme. So we chose as a, my guests know, we chose
a title because I at Next Act Advisors am aboutbuilding purpose, purpose driven companies.
The title that Keith and I came up with is,you know, bridging gaps for better governance.
(04:47):
So Keith, share with us kind of your originstory. Go back all the way, although I'm gonna
encourage my listeners to purchase your book,but go back to your origin story. You nailed
it in like one page in the book, but tell uswhere your origins and what was your, not only
(05:08):
your boardroom journey, but your journey towhere you are today. Thank you. I often tell
people, Brenda, that this is my third chapter.You know, the first chapter was the US military.
actually enlisted in the military in betweenmy junior year of high school that summer and
my senior year of high school. I knew beforeI started my first day of my senior year of
(05:32):
high school when I was leaving for basic trainingin the Air Force. so my first chapter was the
Air Force for a number of years. was stationed in Florida, the Republic of Panama, and the
United Kingdom for a number of years. And thenI got impatient and decided I wanted to get
out. I had a successful early career in theAir Force. And I said, if I can be this successful
(05:58):
in the US Air Force, which is like a large corporation, imagine what I can do in an actual corporation.
I set out on this journey to explore sales.And that led me to my second chapter, which
was corporate America. And I worked for almost30 years in corporate America, primarily
(06:19):
as a turnaround specialist in the area of sales.I would take over the toughest sales organizations
within these large companies and really liftthe hood up and figure out were they having
a people product or process problem within theorganization and then begin to tweak the areas.
(06:43):
And I worked for two large companies, Fortune500 or Fortune 1000 for almost 17 years and
then a Fortune 500 for almost 12 years. AndI was just a strategic growth expert. I turn
around teams and I would also start teams withinthe organization. to come up with ways for
(07:06):
double digit growth and oftentimes triple digitgrowth. And so that's what I did for almost
30 years. And then in January of 2019, I enteredmy third chapter, which was supposed to be
semi-retirement in this portfolio career. unfortunately, I failed miserably at retirement
and what I've been doing for the past six yearsin this almost seven years and this portfolio
(07:34):
environment as executive advisory work. I also started serving on boards in which today I
served on five boards, two private, one municipality,one university, and one nonprofit. And then
I decided to go back to school to get my doctorate.And so I went back to school at the University
(07:58):
of Southern California and pursued my doctoratein organizational change and leadership. all
my research was in the, you know, at thispoint, at that point, all my research was
in the lack of gender and ethnic diversity oncorporate boards. And so- So, and that's
(08:21):
fascinating that you chose your doctoral kindof dissertation and then focus around organizational-
strategy, right? Yes. Was that based at all on your 30 years of sales strategy? Were there
any analogs? I wonder. There was. Part of whatI would do whenever I would take over a situation
(08:48):
that required me to turn it around, like Isaid before, was to really look at the organization.
To look at many components of the organization,people, product, processes. artifacts that
are going on, the subcultures, the cultures.And so I've always been fascinated about it.
And I did things innately and I wanted to learnthe science behind many of the things that
(09:12):
I innately did. And after really diving intoresearch and studies around organizational
change and leadership, I wish I would haveknown many of those things that I figured out
the science behind back when I was. and an actualexecutive doing it. But nevertheless, by learning
(09:33):
it now and using that in my governance roles,I still have the opportunity to put the science
behind what I'm doing as a board member. And I tell people, whether it's as a board
member or my researcher or my writing rolesthat I have today, that I'm bilingual. I speak
(09:55):
business. And I speak academia. And boardroomlingo, right? Which combines a bit of the two.
I like how you use the word science. You know, we were chatting before actually getting
on air today. We've known each other primarilybecause we're both members of the National
(10:18):
Association of Group Directors, right? And I've been a member since, I don't know, 2016.
I don't know how long you've been a member, I, your book is truly a kind of a North star.
wish I would have had it when I began my boardjourney. I actually started my board journey
(10:40):
while in Europe and I got onto public boardand I went, Holy cow, I better get trained
and went to the local equivalent of the NACDin Spain called Instituto de Consejeros Administradores,
ICA. So for my listeners, I do want to do ashout out if you are intentional and want
(11:02):
to learn more about what the journey is togetting on first or subsequent boards. The
book that Keith has authored is launching onthe sixth. And there is a third section.
And specifically, it's around your capital thatyou need to kind of package. It's called commitment
(11:27):
capital. It's trademarked. We're going to getinto that but it's truly unique because I've
read a lot of board books over my 12, 13 yearsand I have not seen anything as unique as this.
So shout out to you. Thank you. Okay. I wantedto also, you know, ask you what made you decide
(11:54):
to turn that dissertation into a book? Whatwas the, because writing a book is not for
the faint of heart. So it was not on my bucketlist. So what happened? You know, this is kind
of inspirational for me. You know, what madeyou go, all right, I've got to get a book out
there. Well, I, this has been a serendipitousjourney, you know, just even going to get
(12:17):
my doctorate was something that I kind of stumbledinto. I was dealing with a tiny bit of imposter
syndrome and in dealing with that, I assignedsomething to myself to get rid of my imposter
syndrome. And I said, it's hard to get into a doctorate program. I just want to see what
(12:40):
I, if I can even get in. And so in Keith Dorseyfashion, I probably went a little overboard
and I applied to seven different universitiesand eight different doctoral programs. And
But I didn't realize in filling out all thoseapplications, which was crazy, was that I
needed a lot of former executives that I workedwith and other CEOs and, like I said, other
(13:08):
executives to serve as a reference for me. SoI collected 15 people that I would use for
all those applications, two or three at a time. And they wrote. I guess great things about
me because I got into all seven universities,all eight programs, but I really just wanted
(13:29):
to boost my ego. I didn't really want to goback to get my doctorate. I needed to solve
for my little bit of imposter syndrome thatI was dealing with. And, but when I did enough
for were 15 accountability partners saying,which one are you getting in? Which one are
you going to choose? I wrote you a great reference.hope you choose the one that I wrote the reference
(13:51):
for. And I said, oh no, now what? I gotta getin. Now I really have to do it. have to get
my doctorate. So I really didn't have a strongenough why to do this to begin with. But
what made me, once I got in and I chose thisproblem of practice, which was my second problem
(14:13):
of practice. My first was around shareholderprimacy on corporate boards. And I stumbled
into this problem of practice, which was aroundthe lack of gender and ethnic diversity on
corporate boards. But I ended up going downthis path of corporate board diversity. And
(14:35):
I just told you this wonderful story and forgotyour question. But you know what made you decide
to publish a book? So as I was going throughthis program, and right beginning all this
research and I really got into my research probablya little too much and I was sitting with my
(14:59):
dissertation chair and she said, Keith, there'ssomething you need to know. I said, what's
that? She said, a good dissertation is a donedissertation. And my friend, you have way too
much research out there and you've written somuch, you have to narrow your focus. And I
(15:19):
said, give me some examples. She said, you know,pick an industry, pick an ethnicity group,
pick a gender, do something. You have to narrowthis down. And I really pushed back a lot.
And one of the sayings at the University ofSouthern California in this program, organizational
change and leadership doctoral program was trustthe process. And so she said, Keith, I know
(15:44):
you're pushing back. I know you believe in allthis research you uncovered. but you have
to trust the process. You have to narrow itdown. I said, okay, if I narrow it down, what
do I do with all this research over here andall this research over there? She said, write
a book. And that's how I ended up getting tothis point where I actually wrote a book with
(16:07):
all this rich research before my dissertation. And then I successfully completed my dissertation.
had all this information. And I did somethingmost people wouldn't do immediately after getting
my doctorate. I dove into more research studies.You're kidding. interviewed formally and informally
(16:27):
hundreds of women directors who have made that career shift into corporate, into being
an independent director. And I got so muchrich, even more information on their barriers,
their enablers, their career. and how theywere able to make that shift and successfully
(16:53):
get on corporate boards. And many of these womenhave been on boards for decades. that's how
I ended up where I am today with this rich data. And I would ask you to describe the four
characters that are in your book. and theirnames and where were they in the career, right?
(17:18):
I wanted to share. I wanted to take a uniqueapproach, know, any books out there and many
board readiness programs out there that willshare a lot of theory with you a lot of information
that is rich that we need to know if you'regoing to be a student of your profession.
As you mentioned before, I highly recommend everyone interested in being a board director
(17:42):
to go to some sort of board readiness organizationand get your education and then get your certification
if you can as well. And so in really divinginto all the women that have successfully
(18:02):
made this transition and the hundreds of interviews,informal and both formal interviews that I
conducted, I started to see themes. in theircareer at certain ages and certain sections
of their careers. And I took a lot of that dataand I created these four fictitious women that
(18:23):
I would use and talk about as a part of a casestudy and examples so that when you read a
chapter and all this theory and all this information,you could then listen to how they took the
information from that chapter and executed onit. And so The four women that I created, the
(18:44):
first one is Lauren. She's 25 and she's a brandnew manager in a corporation. She's actually
been with the corporation for three years asa sales executive and got promoted into our
very first sales management position, entrylevel sales management position. That's Lauren.
Then I have Denise, who is a brand new seniormanager in a firm. And then I have Michelle
(19:12):
who, and Denise is 40 and a brand new seniormanager. And then I have Michelle who's a 55
year old executive in a fortune 500 corporation.And, and she has said that she wants to retire
in the next three to five years. And then lastly,I have Sharon who is a 62 year old CEO of her
(19:39):
family business and it's a set. She's the secondgeneration of the family business. She's been
the CEO for the past 12 years and she's goingto turn the business over to her much younger
brother and who will take over as the CEO. Allfour women said at some point they're going
(19:59):
to want to serve on a private or a public corporateboard. So what should the 25, 40 year old,
55 year old and 62 year old do at this pointof their career to best prepare themselves
for board service? How should a 25-year-oldreally execute her career? And instead of taking,
(20:22):
like many of us have done, a promotion forthe sake of a promotion because they want me
and because it pays more, instead of just doingthat but really looking at beginning with the
end in mind. I ultimately want to be an independentdirector. So how should I orchestrate my career?
(20:42):
How should the 40 year old make a few more tweaksbefore she is at that level where she wants
to serve as an independent director? And thenthis person who is actually thinking about
retiring in the next three to five years, whattweaks? Should she make over the next three
to five years the be most attractive and mostprepared and known in the industry to be an
(21:06):
independent director? And lastly, someone whohas served on her own board as an executive
director and CEO for the past 12 years, butnever has been an independent director. What
are the things she should be doing right beforeshe turns the business over? to really show
(21:29):
up perfectly as an independent director versusan executive director moving forward. Thank
you. While the characters are women and thebook has a tagline, what is that again?
The guidance? The guidance for women to securea seat at the table by no means is this a book
(21:54):
that solely can be read by women. I think itspeaks to the other gender. And what I found
really unique is that you had characters atdifferent times and moments and section moments
and their careers and how to really be intentional. My favorite chapter, I will tell you, is chapter
(22:17):
three. Why? Find your why. That's the nameof the chapter. Yes. And it is in alignment
with the work I do with business owners andfounders. It's like, what is your North Star?
Oftentimes they created the business, they'repurpose driven, but articulating the why, you
(22:38):
know, why did you go out and, you know, workthese hours and put your, you know, re-mortgage
your house to build this business. Findingthat chapter, you know, find your why. And
then you're probably the research you did withthe over a hundred interviews. You ideated
this, but I'd love to for you to share. AndI think it's very important of all your chapters.
(23:01):
This is for me. I think if I were an aspiring director, independent director, this would
be the one that most resonates with me. Findyour way. Tell me a bit more about that chapter.
It did for me, Brenda, as well for two reasons.One, because of the research that I uncovered
and the qualitative interviews that I conducted. I found out that those that were successful
(23:25):
at making that transition from being an executiveor a high-powered government official to
actually being a board member, they did findtheir why. And I also, you know, in this chapter,
this third chapter that I'm in, I became amanaging partner and a practice leader of CEO
(23:47):
and board services at a global executive searchfirm. And I would have meetings with many
executives who will actually say, Keith, I wantto serve on corporate boards. And I will ask
them why. And they really couldn't answer. And I would ask them specific questions about
what type of board, private or public. And they would say, Keith, I don't care. Just
(24:10):
get me on a paid board. And that's not goingto work. And it doesn't work. And so I dedicated
a whole chapter to finding your why, because as aspiring board members or board members
seeking their second or third board, and theykind of found their first board because someone
tapped them on the shoulders and said, we wantyou, but they don't know how to replicate
(24:36):
getting on their next board because no one'stapping them on their shoulders right now.
I found that by getting people to reflect on Number one, what brings them joy? What
brings them joy in this world? Life's too short.And when you're interviewing for a board role,
(24:59):
when you're interviewing for something thatbrings you joy versus the person who is equally
as qualified as interviewing against you forthat role, when you show up for something that
brings you joy, you light up the room. And thatenergy, that person interviewing you picks
up on it and you end up having this banter and they understand that, you know, this seems
(25:25):
to be more important to this person versus thatexecutive. You all are exceptional executives.
Your CVs are outstanding, but sometimes justthe fact that you're interviewing some for
something that brings you joy could be the differentiator.The other thing is the reflect on on your
(25:46):
why and when you are successful, understandingwhy you're successful. When you do fail and
you feel miserable, understanding why you failedand why you felt miserable. And by spending
that time reflecting on that, you'll begin tofigure out your secret sauce. You'll begin
to figure out your superpowers. You'll beginto figure out the value that you actually bring
(26:12):
to organizations because you uncover when youare successful, why you're successful, and
when you fail, why you fail, and when you feelmiserable, why you feel miserable. Most people
don't take the time to reflect. And then asexecutives, we have conducted many of these
vision, mission, and value exercises for ourcompanies. We've met them, we've written them.
(26:38):
And we've done all these things for our companies,but how often do we actually bring that home
and transfer those skills to figure out ourown personal vision, mission, and values? And
when you take the time to do that in this findyour why period of time, you can begin to
(26:58):
figure that out and run every single situationthrough those funnels. And that will help you
really find your sweet spot. And then you'reonly interviewing in areas where you can truly
bring value. And so that's why I wrote thissection. Wow. It sounds like a lot of work.
(27:20):
All right. So your book, think, almost it'sa guidebook. So again, we have the four characters.
You can pick up the book and read chapters thatdon't need to be read from the sequencer order.
Talk to me. I think was really unique about commitment capital. There are five types you've
(27:42):
identified. And I never read or thought ofa concept like this when kind of packaging
my board credentials or others. Speak to meabout the commitment capital. Thanks. You don't
mind, Brenna. I'll touch briefly on the otherfour, you know, and then I'll spend more time
on commitment capital. But The two capitalsthat you typically hear about when you go through
(28:05):
any board readiness program, as one is humancapital and that talks about your education,
your expertise, your experience throughout your career. That's the human capital side
of things. And then you'll, we talk often aboutthe social capital. That's your network, the
people you know that, and boards are interestedin your human capital and your social capital.
(28:29):
The social capital side, they want your contacts.They want your connections. They want your
help with the M &A and finding funding anddifferent things like that, finding the right
talent. Your social capital is a big part ofit. And your social capital can help you get
on a board as well. But those are the two thatyou often hear about. The other three that
(28:55):
I wrote about, one is director capital. Youdon't hear much about that one. And that's
similar to human capital. All these skills thatyou accumulated in education, you accumulated
throughout your career that helped you alongyour career. Director capital is more narrow.
And what are the experiences and educationlike board readiness training that you need
(29:20):
specifically to become a director? And so that'sdirector capital. Then I dove into cultural
capital, which you don't hear much about. Andcultural capital really looks at from the
back when you were five years old in elementaryschool, middle school, high school, college,
and the experiences and the people you weresurrounded by that you mirrored, you emulated,
(29:47):
and the obstacles that you innately had to overcomeback in those early years. that you called
upon either innately or on purpose intentionally throughout your career to get you through
some rough times through your education periodand through your career. People that can
(30:08):
call back and understand their cultural capitalcan use that to get on boards. That's cultural
capital. And then the fifth capital was themissing link. And that's about commitment.
the ability to do the things you need to doin order to get something done and call upon
(30:29):
that. And I can give you an example. I havetwo different groups of women and directors
and executives that have very similar outstandingCVs. And they all have gone through a board
readiness program and they all have completedsome sort of certification. This group found
(30:54):
their way on corporate boards. This group havebeen really trying to get on boards for up
to five years to no avail. But when you lookat them on paper, education experience and
success wise, they look similar. And the missingingredient that I found via research was
(31:15):
those who got on boards did something differentlythan those who didn't. And the majority of
the ones who haven't found their way on boards,when they completed their programs, they were
proud of themselves. They took copious notesthroughout the program. And they said, done.
Let those board positions begin to come my direction. And those who actually ended up getting on
(31:42):
boards, who also took copious notes, they were studious throughout the process, but then
they went back home and they executed. Theystarted to make trade-offs in their lives and
they started to do things differently. Someof them gave up TV on Wednesday nights and
they no longer watch the three Chicago shows. You know, traded that in so they could begin
(32:07):
to do things differently and find the time todo that reflection work and find the time
to network differently and find the time. Andso they started to hold themselves accountable
via their commitment capital to get things done.To this date, I still have people that will
(32:27):
say, Keith, I want to get on a private or apublic board. And I would look at their background
and I said, you know what you really need rightnow? You really need to serve on a nonprofit
board to get some human capital experience whilesurrounding yourself with some incredible social
capital that will see you in action. And theysaid, Keith, I don't have time for a nonprofit
(32:51):
board. Now, the NACD says the average boardmember, independent director, spends 250 hours
a year on each board. You're telling me youwant me to help you find a private or public
board and you don't have time to serve on anonprofit. Let me tell you, you don't have
time to be on a for-profit board and you needto find your commitment capital to make the
(33:19):
necessary trade-offs so you do have the timesto dot your I's and cross your T's. That's
what commitment capital is all about. And thatwas the missing ingredient. I love it. So
you coin it the missing link. the analog withbusiness owners and founders is grit. Yes.
Right. Thunder, but I get I get it. So I, Iencourage those that are aspiring for a first
(33:49):
or subsequent board positions to take a lookat that. Now, I'm going to ask a question that
potentially has in the current climate. Andagain, this is April of 2025. There's been
a lot of backlash in our current administrationto remove anything with the acronym DEI, diversity,
(34:12):
equity, inclusion, remove it from position,hiring, anything that actually is receiving
federal funding. I'm curious, you also havein your book coined a term called optimal
diversity. while I think you had this term in all the research, right, in your original
(34:39):
writing of this book, could optimal diversitybe that analog to the downfall of DEI? I think
so. And unfortunately, what's going on in today'ssociety, mostly in the US, but even several
other places in the world, is that organizations,in my opinion, have confused the confused.
(35:06):
And they are saying we need to move away fromdiversity and move towards meritocracy. And
that we need to get away from checking the box and move to bringing merit back. And the unfortunate
part is diversity, equity, and has always had merit as the prerequisite. It's never
(35:38):
been about checking the box or just bringingin an unqualified individual so that we can
look from an observable diversity standpointdifferently. It's really been about one,
the prerequisite and the table stakes. ismerit. And then two, to be able to fish in
(36:03):
different ponds, to bring in different people. So ultimately, we can have that cognitive
diversity or diversity of thought brought intothe room. And unfortunately, because of this
reason for bringing parody and make certainthat your boards and your C suites and your
(36:25):
companies resembled the stakeholders that youwere going after for all obvious reasons.
Unfortunately, the message has gotten lostas to why we want to do this. And it's really
about mitigating risk, disruption, findingblue oceans, and you mitigate your risk by
(36:47):
having a representation of that diversity ofthought to protect your business and to understand
all the stakeholders that you're trying to serve. And, the prerequisite was always merit. And
so I share with people that meritocracy anddiversity truly can and does coexist, do coexist.
(37:09):
And so optimal diversity is the combination of observable or demographic diversity coupled
with diversity of thought is optimal diversity.And that applies to every human being. when
they begin to reflect and to peel back theircultural, human, social, all those capitals
(37:33):
I mentioned before, they can begin to presentthemselves in such a way that they can demonstrate
their optimal diversity. As a managing partner and a practice leader, a CEO in board services,
I will spend time with executives one-on-onefrom all walks of life and coach them. And
(37:55):
I remember when I typically would sit down witha white male executive during this period of
time, and I would tell them my story and whatmy background was on and my research around
my doctorate. They will start off because they'renow interviewing with a search professional
(38:16):
that can help them get on boards. And they willstart to interview off like this. And then
as I begin to tell them my background and myresearch, they would end up like this and angry.
And then I would talk to them about optimaldiversity and they would start to loosen up
and then they go right back to this. And I rememberin one of my conversations with a Fortune 500
(38:38):
executive, a white male, and I talked to himabout optimal diversity and he said, wait a
second. He said, Keith, I grew up on a farmand I went to this sort of school and he jumped
out of the car. like that. he said, I do bringdiversity to the table. And I said, yes, you
(39:00):
do. But I've never had to present myself thatway before. And what you just did was you taught
me to reach into myself and figure out how Idifferentiate myself from any other type of
executive. And I never had to do that before.And that's optimal diversity. Absolutely. So
(39:21):
if you heard it here on the founder sandbox,optional diversity refers to ensuring that
observable demographic diversity is coupledwith diversity of thought. And meritocracy
and diversity are not opposing aims, but insteadare symbiotic and share a common goal. So thank
(39:43):
you, Keith, for developing the concept of optimaldiversity. And I must read. coming out on
May 6. I would like you to have your timeon air to provide my listeners with how they
may contact you because not only are you launchingyour book on May 6, the boardroom journey.
(40:09):
I do believe you have one on one coaching as well as you do speaking opportunities.
Keith, how's it best to contact you? Well,you can find me on my website, is boardroomjourney.com.
Okay. And my email is keith at boardroomjourney.com.You can also find me on LinkedIn under Dr.
(40:37):
Keith D. Dorsey. And so those are, you know,several different ways you could find me. And
when you go to boardroomjourney.com, I'm reallyattacking this approach of making certain
that we take board governance very seriously and helping to equip individuals at various
(41:00):
stages of their career to be best prepared forboard service. I want everyone, as I mentioned
before, to go through some sort of board readinessprogram with the many different type of board
readiness programs out there. But then onceyou've done that, I focus on three areas.
(41:21):
One is with, I'm sorry, Brenda, you want toask me a question? No, that's okay, one. One
is with the boards themselves. I'm gonna challengevia their consulting offerings, challenge
boards to really take a look at their boardmembers they have today. And really, many
boards will have skilled matrices. Yes. Andso they will look at the skills matrix and
(41:44):
maybe highlight 12 different functional skills.And then they want to outline their board members
and how they rate those different skills. Andthen they stop there. And I consider the skills
matrix to be the top 10 % of a iceberg. OK.And that's the part you can see. The bottom
(42:07):
90 % below the surface is around their competencies.And in our consulting, I challenge boards
to actually measure the competencies of theirboard members as well. And those are the things
below the surface, their behavioral traits andthings like that, because you wanna have the
right mix of independent directors on yourboard. And then look at where they have a
(42:34):
redundancy of experiences in their functionalareas, skill sets, as well as competencies.
and think about their strategy moving forwardand where do they have gaps? And so that's
one half of what, you know, Boardroom Journeydoes. The other part is with individuals.
And what I have uncovered is that many peoplewill go through a program, but they don't execute,
(43:00):
as I mentioned before, a commitment capital. So one of the offerings we have is you get
an accountability partner. And with the...the accountability side of things, the accountability
partner will meet up with you and have 30 minuteone-on-ones with you, almost unlimited one-on-ones
(43:20):
throughout the year, the numbers so high. Butyou cannot get the next meeting with your accountability
partner until you have proven you've done thethings that we talked about in the prior meeting.
And so that's an offering. And then the otheroffering, is six months of one-on-one coaching,
(43:44):
two times for one hour each time, twice a month. And that one-on-one coaching is taking a lot
of the principles and action items from thebook, The Boardroom Journey. And instead of
doing it in asynchronous sort of fashion, we'regoing through it together one-on-one to make
certain that you begin to do the things differentlyto get different results. The saying is successful
(44:09):
people do what unsuccessful people don't do.And the goal there with the one-on-one coaching
is to have you do the things that you need todo in order to get to where you would like
to go. And so that's what the boardroom journeyas a company and a practice actually does for
individuals. Thank you for sharing that. Thiswill be in the show notes, And I'm very excited
(44:34):
to. provide some exposure and my listeners,particularly those that are considering your
own boardroom journey. I'm going to switch gearsback to the founder sandbox. I am passionate
about resilience, purpose-driven and scalablegrowth. And I love to do a round the round
(44:58):
with my guests and what does that meaning ofresilience mean to you? Each of my guests has
a different... Yeah. So please. me, resiliencecomes down to when you truly have a true north
and you believe in your true north, having theintestinal fortitude to do things that you
need to do in order to get it done and notgiving up right when you're at that point where
(45:26):
things can actually turn around. That's to mewhat resilience is about. But you first got
to know your true north. have the intestinalfortitude, encourage to stick with it until
you hit them. Thank you. How about purpose driven?The title of your episode is purpose, Yes.
(45:48):
Bridging gaps for better governance. But beyondthat, what is purpose driven? What has made
you be so purposeful? That's a great question,Brenda. I would have to say right back to
that true north, know, finding your why and really spending the time to think about where
(46:10):
are there unmet needs in the marketplace. And, you know, I've worked with some incredible
organizations and sometimes we are too insularand we come up with some great things. that
we created that we think the market should beinterested in. And the market says, you know
(46:31):
what, that was cute, but no. And so I feelwhen you start with from the client's perspective
and you uncover where there are unmet needs,then and only then can you truly be purposeful
in meeting those unmet needs. And that feelsgood here and you're solving something that's
(46:54):
needed in the I get it. You heard it here.Q. Dorsey's definition of purposefulness. Scalable.
So I think that what you have done here bypublishing what was originally your dissertation
and then building consulting a practice aroundis actually scalable. What's scalable for you?
(47:18):
You know, something that can have a process. Okay, repeatable process around it. I've
watched businesses succeed and then fail becausethey built something that was needed for in
(47:39):
the marketplace, but they allowed themselves to get off the beaten track because they're
trying to be all things for everybody. And for me, when a business is truly scalable,
they found something, they met an unmet need and they know their sweet spot and they stay
(47:59):
in their sweet spot. Now, do they disrupt themselves to stay ahead on the bell shaped curve? Absolutely.
But they build something that has a repeatableprocess and they can keep their margins down
because they're not just being there for everybody.To me, that's what scalable is all about. Find
(48:20):
in their sweet spot and execute it. Excellent.Fantastic. question. Did you have fun in the
sandbox today, Keith? I actually did. The problemhere, Brenda, is I just enjoy having conversations
with you. so we did that via podcast. We didwhat we normally do, but via podcast. That's
(48:43):
excellent. So I had a blast. Thank you. Andwhat about you? I always have fun. I love
the fact that my guests can tell their stories. They're very authentic. You're very authentic.
You live your purpose. actually, that's why my guests come to me, right? And say, is
(49:09):
the podcast right now, a growing channel. AndI do have a large fellowship now. You can also
follow me on YouTube. to my guests, I hopeyou enjoyed this month's. podcast. Actually,
this month is a lot I published a lot aboutcorporate governance the month of April. So
(49:30):
if you like this episode with Dr. Keith Dorsey,sign up for the monthly release of this podcast,
the founder sandbox where my guests are founders,business owners, corporate board directors,
authors. And you'll learn about how to buildstrong governance for resilient, scalable and
(49:51):
purpose driven companies to make profits forgood. So thank you for joining me again, Keith.
It was a pleasure. Thank you.
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