Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez — Powered by Projects and the Project-Driven Organization

"If you launch more projects than you finish, you're a bad leader. Your role is not about launching projects — it's about finishing them."

Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez, creator of the project economy concept and author of Powered by Projects, joins Aidan McCullen to explain why agile — a 20-year-old idea — is no longer enough, and why the next evolution is the project-driven organization (PDO): a company rearchitected around dynamic, empowered, cross-functional project teams.

In this conversation, Antonio reveals:

• Why EY's Project Everest collapsed despite a perfect plan — and what it says about ego at the top
• The structural blind spot that undermined Nike's digital transformation
• The robot hairdresser that shocked a luxury company's C-suite — and why "safe" jobs aren't
• Why COVID briefly turned every surviving company into a project-driven organization
• How Bill Anderson is dismantling hierarchy and approval steps at Bayer
• The insurance company that ring-fenced €50 million for crazy ideas — and why employees only asked for €2 million
• The bank that had Revolut's idea first, then killed it in the budgeting cycle
• Why "are you crazy?" is the best compliment an idea can receive
• The Toyota-style kill switch every transformation needs — and why 90% done is done
• How Alan Mulally's all-green KPIs at Ford exposed a culture that couldn't ask for help

Chapters:

00:00 Lead Through Transformation

01:13 Sponsor Message Kyndryl

01:40 Why Projects Really Fail

02:03 Meet Antonio And Project Economy

07:04 Projects As Your Future

08:33 Case Study EY Project Everest

10:29 Case Study Nike Structure Fails

13:09 Rethinking Org Structure For AI

15:02 AI And Robots Disrupt Work

17:29 From Agile To Project Driven

21:57 Chang

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
If you're a leader, I think peopleare looking for you in a different

(00:03):
way than they did in the past.
So don't be afraid.
Move out of the comfort zone.
Spend more time on thetransformation space.
The legacy that you're goingto leave is based on the
changes that you're making now.
It's not what you did in the past,and that means spending time on
transformation, building that culturewhere everything works as co-creation.

(00:25):
The teams are in power, and you'resomebody that orchestrates, and, and
like you said, take decisions, butlet the team also take most of them.
And if you're in a transformation teamor transformation lead, step up, please.
I think you have the right to ask.
You have the right to, to, totake the things that you need for
your project to be successful.

(00:45):
You all know why projects fail.
You all know why transformation…Don't let failure happen again and
again because you are afraid ofspeaking up and asking what you need.
It will make a huge difference.
And last one, Aidan, thinkpeople first, even in projects.
When you have a team, and we knowwhat's the difference between a group of
people and a team of committed people.

(01:07):
Spend the time, create thatteam, and things will go just
flying, and people will love you.
You can win a copy of today's book withthanks to our sponsor Kyndryl, who runs
and reimagines the technology systemsthat drive advantage for the world's
leading businesses with a unique blendof AI-powered consulting built on
unmatched managed service capability.

(01:29):
Kyndryl helps leaders harness thepower of technology for smarter
decisions, faster innovation,and a lasting competitive edge.
You can find Kyndrylat KYNDRYL, Kyndryl.com
what if most project failures were notreally about project management at all?
In fact, some of the biggest reasonsprojects fail can't be traced to missed

(01:50):
deadlines or flawed Gantt charts.
They stem from something much moreprofound, from leadership blind
spots and organizational structuresthat were never designed to support
a world powered by projects.
that's what drove today's guestin 2019 to introduce a more
disruptive shift, the concept hecoined called the project economy.

(02:13):
he reimagines organizations and theirstructures through the lens of projects
and emphasizes that projects have becomethe primary engine of value creation.
Each of us, regardless of roleor title, is a project manager.
as everyone has become a projectmanager, whether they know it or not,
every organization is now what hecalls a project-driven organization.

(02:37):
just don't behave like one, andthat's what today's book is about.
project economy calls for a newkind of leadership and a new c-
organizational model that placesprojects at the core, one he calls
project-driven organizations, PDOs.
It represents the next evolution ofagile organization, a 20-year-old concept

(02:59):
while , valuable at the time, is no longersufficient for the scale and complexity
of transformation required today.
The project-driven model bringstogether structure, leadership, and
culture to enable speed, clarity,and sustained value creation.
It is a pleasure to welcome theauthor of Powered By Projects,

(03:19):
Antonio Nieto-Rodriguez.
Welcome to the show.
Thank you, Aidan.
A pleasure.
Thank you for inviting me
It's a pleasure to have you, man,and I got the name right as well.
I nailed it.
Yes.
Well done.
Well done
good project management man.
I, I read a, I read a useful book onit recently, I must tell you about it.

(03:40):
Thank you
it before we came on air, andI'll give him a shout-out.
A brilliant guy I know, aregular listener to the show.
He's one of the leadership team ofMars, and he works in innovation.
Big shout-out to you, Rainer.
And I was telling him about this book.
I was, like, going, "Hey,man, I'm reading this book.
I gotta send you a copy." And I told hima little about it and he goes, "Oh, yeah,

(04:01):
I read a great Harvard Business Reviewabout this idea of the project economy."
I was like, "That's Antonio."Your work is getting out there,
Thank you.
Thank you
What I really loved about thebook was this, that I read
a lot of books, as you know,
Yeah
I'd never read about transformationor culture, organizational structure,

(04:23):
through the lens of project management,
Mm-hmm.
And that's what re- was sointeresting, was to go, ah,
if I actually put it this way.
But my own experience, Iwanted to share this with you.
When I retired from professional sport,I went into digital transformation,
although I didn't call it that then.
Mm-hmm.
I pretty soon realized that my jobwas project management, and I asked

(04:46):
the leadership team would theysupport me to do a Prince2 course.
Wow
uh, and they, they wouldn't fund it.
It was
No.
Grand or something.
And
Yeah.
Yeah
I was like, "I probablycost us thousands of euro
Yes
being terrible project manager,"and they wouldn't fund it.
But I just thought maybew- we'd, we'd share this

(05:09):
It's,
the lens of what you say reimaginingorganizations to be projectdriven
cultures Maybe we'll open up and giveour audience that lens and then we'll
go as deep as we can because you verykindly joined us from your hotel lobby
But let's get started with that Antonio
Thank you, Aidan.
So yes, I think the, the core, theessence of my work has been around how

(05:31):
can we make a topic which is not easy.
When you read the books, when you geta PRINCE2, when you get a PMP, they're
looking for very technical skills.
Uh it's like everybody will needto ri- uh, build a bridge, right?
Or a nuclear plant, and, and that'snot why we do projects right now.
It's, it's for transform, for introducingnew technology, and I found that there

(05:54):
was a big disconnect between whatprojects in reality were with the
tools and methodologies and books.
And that was my goal, just to simplify,to make everybody a good project manager,
to make people a- appreciate projects.
Because I believe, and I thinki- is what you're doing in your
show, Aidan, is projects is likethe nicest way to work, right?

(06:18):
Because you work with people.
You, you have challenges.
Like you've done sports, right?
I've seen your … So when the team plays,the, there's the satisfaction that you
get from that, it's just unbelievable, andyou get that when you do good projects.
Unfortunately, like it happenedto you, you cannot imagine how
many people do projects withouteven knowing the basics, right?

(06:41):
It's imagine you ride cars and nobodyhas taught you how to ride cars.
It's chaos, and this is howmost companies are doing today.
It's just a chaos.
It's just everywhere projects, andthere's no proper way to, to manage them.
So it's a w- great way to start,uh, one of my passion topics.
Which is quite obvious man Quite

(07:03):
Yeah.
But before we go any further let'snot assume people know what we mean
by projects because you do give adefinit definition of projects and
why they hold the key to our future
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
So the, there's always the standarddefinition by, by Prince or PMI.

(07:23):
It's like there's something that you'rechanging, you're solving a big problem,
you're adding new technology, and,and there's always a deadline, right?
There's a limited budget, there'slimited resources, and there's a
deadline, and that's kind of thestandard definition, which is fair.
It's okay.
But for me, the more motivational viewof projects is your projects are your

(07:46):
future as an individual, as a familym- member, as a, your own business,
working for a big company, workingfor the region, for the countries.
Every project represents a buildingblock on the future, right?
So there's some projects, uh,which are bigger building blocks,

(08:06):
some other smaller, but everythingbuilds up to create your future,
and I think that's so exciting.
I have to tell you honestly,that was not my invention.
It came from, Harvard Business Review,,chief editor Adi Ignatius, who wrote
about projects and say, "Projects areyour future." Uh, but there's nothing

(08:28):
more beautiful than working on the future
You share so many storiesthroughout the book
Mm-hmm.
case studies of companies that have donewell companies that have done not so well
But let's share the relatively recent2022 case of the global professional
services giant EY Ernst Young who setout to execute a sweeping corporate
transformation splitting the consultingarm from the audit division and trying

(08:53):
to create two separate firms I'd love youto share this both the rationale behind
why they did it and then what happenedwhat what was called Project Everest
and turned out to be quite like Everest
Yes.
Well, this is something that,the case illustrates what
happens almost everywhere, right?
You can have, and I think we havethe ability to build good plans now.

(09:16):
We, we have the knowledge.
There's lots of lessons learned.
We are people who can develop good plans.
We can have a really,, detailed structure.
We can have … All the details ofthe project can be well-defined.
The problem is that is that's notenough, and that's what I'm covering
in this new book is you need culture.

(09:38):
You need alignment with senior leaders.
And what happened in this case with Ernst& Young is that the plan was perfect.
The execution failed because of theculture and the ego approach to this.
People were fighting for theirturf, so there was no collaboration.
And if there's no collaboration atthe top, nothing works at the bottom.

(10:00):
So it's a really good case.
I love it because it's a companythat provides consulting service
around execution transformation, butthey were not able to talk the talk
because of that personal culture,uh, which is not about teamwork.
Uh, it's about your own, uh, turf,and, and that created the friction

(10:21):
and, and the misalignment and, andthe project was a mess, like you said.
Like climbing the Everest,and it was a disaster
There's another contrasting one Soif if EY was cultural this one was
structural and this was Nike's digitaltransformation between 20 and 2024 in
the four years following the start ofthe pandemic the company accelerated

(10:43):
its shift from directtoconsumer modelSo they'd invested heavily in ecommerce
digital platforms consumer data analyticsWhat was so tragic about this one was
they they looked to be doing everythingright They'd put a lot of things in
place including the culture but thiswas structural Maybe you'll share this
Yeah, so that's the other caseI start in the book as well.

(11:06):
So another very successful company with,in this case, like you said, they work
on the culture, but they forgot thatin order to transform your company, you
need to organize yourself differently.
That means also shifting roles, shiftingresponsibilities, shifting the power
more to the teams, not in the top.

(11:27):
So the governance was a big issue.
So in the end, is the otherside of the picture, right?
Culture is the soft elements.
What is the values that you showthe leaders, follow, but then the
structure is also very important.
I always say that, Aidan, today,most of the companies, they're
still built for 50 years ago, right?

(11:47):
Unless you're a startup or, or you,or me, who have a very flat model
and we can't react, most of theestablished business, they're still very
hierarchical, and that's a nightmare.
When you were doing probablytransformation work, you struggle
because we don't share resources.
We still work in the same company, butI don't help you because I need to help

(12:08):
myself first, and, and it's, it's a mess.
So the structure has a big impact onhow you share resources, how people,
instead of working part-time in yourprojects, they jump and work full-time,
and, and that makes a huge difference.
So that's the structural aspects thatwe often didn't look like them, like you
said, we looked at them, but not froma project or transformation angle, and

(12:33):
that's what I brought, with this new book.
It's interesting that one becausemany people who listen to this
show work in transformation and
Yeah
and I find those type of people bytheir very nature are giving are
sharing are open to collaboration
giving
away the credit all those things
Yeah
there's a line by Demings he said that Abad system will always beat a good person

(12:57):
Yes.
a and that's what what
I love it!
There because it feels like you'vefailed but actually it's that the company
failed you it can be the company'sculture or structure that failed you
Yeah
And one of the things that has beenrecently on the show a lot was the idea
of rearchitecture of the organizationboth physically and mentally because of AI

(13:19):
Mm-hmm.
Maybe we'd share a little bitabout that before we go any further
Sure.
I think this is pro- I don't know whichone is more challenging, uh, Aidan, from
what I've seen, where I help companies.
I think the culture can be shaped.
Uh, I think you just needto have the right people.
Uh, but structure is alwaysa bit more challenging.

(13:42):
It's, it's letting go the past.
It's, it's you might have a teamof 40 people, and suddenly they're
not your team anymore, and you'repart of a bigger group, and you work
in, uh, as an orchestrator, whichdoesn't mean the people, uh, see you
up, but see you at the same level.
So I think for me, that has beenalways the most difficult change

(14:03):
is, is because it's very visible.
You know?
It's suddenly the org chart disappearsand, and we start working as teams.
And, uh, the, the CEO of Bayer, BillAnderson, when he joined 2024, he,
it was one of his biggest bets is,is let's dismantle the hierarchies
and all these approval steps,and let's work more as a team.

(14:26):
And I'm watching that.
Uh, I think it's not easy, but atleast he's trying and seriously
trying to break down those silos,which is, uh, things from the past.
I think they were very useful in the past.
They're not m- much needed now.
And just a small comment on that.
Not the whole companyneeds to be restructured.

(14:47):
I think there's some parts of yourbusiness that can still be run
like they were run for 100 years.
But the transformation piece, the,the … That, those things need to
move and work in a different setting
Antonio maybe a little wordon how AI is accelerating
Mm-hmm.

(15:08):
Mm-hmm.
Well, AI just going to… I, I havea nice slide, which is very shocking.
So in, in an organization, a good sizeor m- middle size, they have two parts,
and, and we talk about this before.
Ambidexterity, you know, is runningyour business, your assets, exploiting

(15:28):
your assets, , and that's run by people.
And then you have the change part,, exploration, the project side.
And I think AI and robots too,Aidan, robots are going to be
running most of your operations.
And we're not talking about finance,and we're not talking about logistic.
That's already happening.

(15:49):
But core part of your business,sales, marketing, , even finance,
you'll see robots who have AI built onthem who can do a lot of the things.
I work with a big luxury companywho… French company, global company.
They l- they sell, and part of theircore operations is, , hairdressers

(16:11):
because they sell shampoo foryour hair, and you look beautiful.
And then maybe you're us- using thembecause your hair looks perfect.
That's that's AI That's AI
So basically, the whole debate withthe C-suite is, "Okay, but our, our
sales channel is not going to be res-disrupted by AI and robots because

(16:32):
people go to a hairdresser, and theylike to see people cutting your hair."
And I show them a video of a robot who'shairdressing now, and, and it's real.
It's not AI.
So most of the things that wethink will never be touched by AI
and robots, they will be, and theywill be faster than when we think.
So the question to your audienceis, if you're doing the same job

(16:54):
every day and y- with the samepeople every day, that job will go.
That job will go in, in 12 months.
So think about what skills you needto build together with AI to find
your potential, to find your new space
I think it's such an importantthing and there's so many people
with their head in the sand

(17:14):
Wow
whole idea of it's not good enough
Yeah
but we're like Um yetIt's not good enough yet
Yes.
I
Yeah
we're scaremongering saying thatbut it's uh probably because we're
a little bit closer to it or we see
Yes
different a brilliant l line you writehere and I'd love to share this and this
is the type of taste of the writing inthe book You write that Organizations

(17:37):
today face challenges that agileframeworks were never designed to address
Yeah
entire industries are being redefinedovernight AI and advanced analytics are
collapsing decision cycles Customers andemployees expect personalized realtime
experience In this new context PDOsproject design organizations represent

(17:59):
the next logical evolution rearchitectingthe business itself around dynamic
empowered crossfunctional projectteams I thought it would be really
useful to take our audience on a quickjourney of how we got to where we are
Mm-hmm.
a table from the book if it's okay to
Sure, sure.
You can share,
And maybe you could talk to that andand we'll have a bit of empathy for the

(18:21):
people who are only listening to us AgainI as I always remind our guests most
people are listeners rather than viewers
on
YouTube So I'm just gonna sharethis on the screen Antonio
Okay, so here, this is, one of themost important tables in the book
and, and it shows the evolutionof the organizational concept.
So we have been very muchfocused on operation driven

(18:43):
for the last century or more.
Then we had this agile movement,which I think was great.
It just really helped to, to movefaster, especially at the team level.
But we noticed that this wasstagnating, so still the number of
transformation failing was huge,even if they were using agile.

(19:03):
Then that's where I thought of aboutthis concept project driven, where
put-- projects are at the front, right?
So this is, is really when you haveto decide, do I run the operations
or do I spend more time on projects?
You spend the time on the projects.
That you create the value for the future.
So the table is quite e-extensive, butmaybe just cover a couple of lines here.

(19:26):
So the focus was before efficiency,stability and control, and we leave that.
I think you leave that, Aidan.
I leave that when I was at corporates,where the focus is efficiency,
stability and the managers are there tocontrol you, that the things get done.
Agile introduced speed andflexibility at team level, so at the

(19:47):
bottom, nothing changed at the top.
And this is really on, on projectdriven is where enterprise-wide
transformation drive the project.
So this is really aboutconstant transformation.
You get your best peopleto do transformation work.
You have the best leaderssupporting those transformations,
so the projects become the core.

(20:08):
How do you create value?
Operations driven was about cost.
So this is all driven by financepeople, cost optimization, productivity
gains and operational leverage.
That was the past.
Agile, what was the value there?
Faster time to market, iterativecustomer value delivery and improved

(20:30):
responsiveness What happens now when youlook at the project driven organization
design, this is about strategicexecution and innovation at scale, right?
And dynamic resource allocation.
This is one of the bigger challenge itemwe can take later is why people are afraid
to jump into a transformation full-time.

(20:52):
Why most of the people prefer tostay in operations and spend two
days a week in a project or … Thisis not happening project driven.
You can jump in a project fornine months and then you'll
get something else afterwards.
There's, there's a bit of uncertainty,but the company guarantees that
when the projects are over, youkeep focusing on project work.

(21:16):
Maybe just the last part Iwant to cover is the culture.
So how was the culturefor operations driven?
Standardization and risk aversion.
And, and you talk about innovation,I think this is a killer
that we were talking earlier.
Most of the projects today, theyhave incremental improvement ideas,
which is, is, is appalling for me.

(21:37):
So that was the past.
If you take a risk and you fail, it'syour fault and you might get fired.
Brilliant job man Brilliant job And I just
Yes
again thank you I know you're travelingwith your family and you've kindly
taken time out of your schedule
Finally.
I I Yeah And then I come alongman You well you're looking
good You're looking relaxed as
you

(21:58):
and it's not AI But we've heard of theterm change fatigue and for me the that
term always subtly suggests that peopleare the problem that th they've had
enough or they're resisting the change insome way But there was a key point you.
made in the book that points to amuch more widespread issue You say

(22:18):
Senior leaders frequently initiatetoo many projects and transformations
simultaneously they strain theresources and cause critical initiatives
to compete for limited attentionfunding and personnel When every
project is a priority none truly is
Yeah
focus and fragmented effortsI thought that was a key thing

(22:39):
that is rarely sh said out loud
Yes
the the other thing you see I don't knowif you see this yourself Antonio is the
leadership team may be great at delegatingbut they delegate down And people in the
Yeah.
are drowning cause
Yeah.
We're getting delegated And and there'sthere may be a lack of psychological
safety where they can push back andkinda go I got too much on my plate here

(23:01):
Yeah
like you're failing And then ifthere's a competing job market
you're afraid to say anything
Exactly.
I think that's, that's the bigger issuewhen, when you look at companies and,
and I, I have a funny way to look atthis, uh, which is part of my workshop,
uh, Aidan, is I, I ask the leadershipteam is, "On average, how often do you

(23:23):
launch new initiatives and projects in, inyour company?" And the leadership teams,
they think that that's their job, right?
Is we're strong, we take risks,we are entrepreneur, so we launch
one new project every four weeks.
We have like just … We'rea machine of launch.
But so that's great, and I say, "Howoften do you finish or kill projects?"

(23:44):
And they look at each other andthey say, "When was the last time we
finished the la- Paul, you remember?"
"No, I don't remember." So if youjust as a leader launch more projects
than you finish, you're a bad leader.
That, that's it.
Because your role is not aboutlaunching projects, it's about
finishing them, and then prioritizing.
Tell your company what are the topthree things they need to focus.

(24:06):
You cannot imagine how frustratingit is to talk to the leadership
team, to ask them, "What's your topthree transformations or initiative?"
And they cannot answer.
With that, it's already if thepeople at the top don't prioritize,
like you say, they dump all theproblems to the people, the middle
managers and, and they struggle.

(24:26):
They … This is something thatI insist very much on the book.
A good leader today is the one thatsays no many times and says, "Focus on
that and that, and I will be there tosupport you and remove any blockers."
That's it.
And so that's the rule I put in place.
Uh, next time you launch a new project,before that, say which two or three

(24:48):
we're going to finish, and that justsends a message to the people saying,
"Finally, they're doing this job,these people at the top. Finally,
they earn their money," right?
Because they tell us whereto focus and, and that's so
And that makes job much more interesting.
So it, it's just a big issue
Huge issue.
And then the other one was that if youthink about leadership teams they're

(25:11):
often really clear on the strategic vision
Mm-hmm.
Where the company's going thestrategy et cetera But they're not
clear on telling the rest of theorganization and you say that that
Yeah.
Can manifest as cl unclear orconflicting objectives insufficient
sponsorship inadequate supportfrom executive leaders or a lack
Mm-hmm.
decisionmaking or

(25:32):
Mm-hmm.
When project teams encounter obstaclesSo that that idea of becoming
almost like the the chief visionofficer chief s storytelling officer
mm-hmm.
Becomes so important But o one of thethings I find from working with leaders
is they think that they're saying itand think that everybody knows about
it but as you go down the organizationthe message becomes less and less

(25:56):
Yes.
Yeah
as a as a PDO this is absolutely essential
It's essential, Aidan, andyou, you s- you just said it.
So my, my only point that I want to stressis in a PDO, one of the most important
words that we use is co-creation.
Co-creation means that the peopleat the top, they don't take

(26:18):
the, take all the decisions.
They not, they don'tneed to be the smartest.
They don't need to be always right.
Um, the, the whole thing is co-createdand, and, and the projects come
from below, and the sponsors at thetop are the one that prioritize.
Say, "This is not the right time.This is not a project, but we launch
an experiment." Most of the AIprojects today, they're experiments.

(26:40):
Why do we call it projects ifwe don't know where we're going?
So that just creates a lot offrustration, a lot of waste, and
then people get just depressed.
But the co-creation helps you tounderstand that it's all about the team.
It's all about the, the ideaswin, not the hierarchy wins.
And when a leader understands, theneverything gets easier because you

(27:04):
have been part of the creation,so you don't need to communicate
that much because you already werein the process from the beginning.
And it's so beautiful becausethey become big, big ambassadors.
Everybody defends, and the mostimportant, they're proud of what they're
doing, and they go home and they telltheir wives or husbands, "Listen, I'm

(27:24):
doing this, and I just feel so good."
love that I I
Mm-hmm.
So important that every singleperson feels they're contributing
towards that bigger picture
Mm.
just coming and doing tasks every day
Yeah.
achieving something And I
Yeah
remind our audience I have a copy ofthis beautiful book up for grabs if
you're just a member of our Substackyou will be in a win with a chance of

(27:45):
just winning it So a brilliant book andI wanted to just point out something
I thought this was so so interestingMany of us experienced this the great
resignation that followed COVID19
Mm-hmm.
And what was so interesting was whatyou said that it was also due to a
shift towards projectbased work because

(28:05):
Mm-hmm.
Now all of a sudden we were removed fromeach other and you had to be a project
manager And according to a organizationalstrategist a guy called Michael Mankins
the phenomenon was not solely a resultof the pandemic but rather a continuation
of a trend driven by factors such asreshuffling of the work stack But it
this was all just exasperated by theimpact of COVID on on working dynamics

(28:30):
I thought that was interesting and maybeyou'd share a little bit about that
Well, I think there were… The, wesaw with the COVID, we saw the good
thing because, uh, w- when COVIDjust exploded, I would say almost all
organizations that survived became PDOs.
They, they, they, theyruthlessly prioritized.

(28:52):
They stopped projects, like 80, 90% ofthe projects, because they had to focus.
So the focus was becoming digital,becoming online, let people work
virtually, and things that would…
I co- I work with business schools.
It, they had all onlinelearning for six years.
They didn't do it.
They did it in a couple of weeks.
Let that happen with every… Becauseyou put focus, you get the best people,

(29:16):
leaders know what to do, they're there.
So we saw how by becoming PDOs,you really went through a, the ma-
biggest crisis ever in the world,and you survived with the business.
But then everything, when everythingsettled, companies felt like, "Oh,
we need to do so many things now.
We need to launch.

(29:36):
We need… Let's take theprojects that we killed.
Let's bring them.
Let's put more." And there's nothingworse for someone to be working
in five, six, seven projects.
I think we all love towork on one or two maybe.
But what happened during the greatresignation, there were so many projects
launched, and people just got burned out.

(29:56):
They, they, there was no focus.
They didn't know where to put theirefforts, and you know, you had a
deadline every week, and it was pressure.
And so that's, I think, what I sayis the, the, the COVID show was the
best and the worst of these models
Antonio one of the great examples yougive so you give many in the book So
Yeah

(30:17):
about William Gore and so on We talkabout Haier But you talk about and you
mention them there Bill Anderson's currenttransformation as at Bayer The reason
I wanted to just share this upfrontis because I wanted to then show the
blueprint that you provide in the book as
Hmm
But let's lead with a good exampleand then I'll show the blueprint on
screen and again we'll have a bitof empathy for those just listening

(30:40):
So yes, I think the, the, my, the bookis focused on, on the Haier company.
So eight-- I have eight pillarsin the roadmap that you're going
to share, the, the blueprint, andHaier showed me that you can do them
all, and you can do them all right.
And then Bayern is the companythat's kind of very emblematic,

(31:05):
who's trying to go through this.
So they, they're doing severechanges, through changes on
their operating model, on theirorganizational structure to become PDO.
And you can see that here on the slide.
So back to the three areas that I coverall the time is the organizational aspects

(31:25):
with its about the culture, is allowingfor failing, thinking exponential,
working co-creation, organization,flatter, less hierarchy, and governance.
Governance is about how do we govern?
Where are the decisions taken?
Ninety percent of the decisionsare taken at the senior level
or at the project level, right?

(31:47):
If, if that's the case, you go slow.
So I'm saying ninety percentof the decisions, the
transformation team can do that.
Can you take a decision of five milliondollars today without any approvals?
That is PDO.
Then you have the leadership.
I think that's, Aidan, where weneed to work a lot, is these people
have to change the way they work.

(32:09):
They love to be in their comfortzone, which is running the business.
That's the exploitation of the assets.
We need them on the other side.
The business can run by itself.
We need to have them spending more time,sponsorship, prioritizing, and so on.
The other aspect is human resources.
How can we get a more fluent resourcesthat you move to there full-time, and then

(32:34):
you move to the other side full-time, butwe don't want people working part-time.
How come a company I work for, fiftythousand employees, they cannot
give me twenty people full-timefor a strategic initiative?
Why everybody's part-time?
And the last part is value creation.
We'll keep creating value throughoperations for sure, but we'll need to

(32:54):
create more value through big projects,uh, big bets, innovation that you do
so well, Aidan, helping companies.
What are those big bets?
Those are you crazy projects.
I call them are youcrazy because there's…
I don't know, Aidan, you're an experton this, but for me, there's no
better compliment to an idea thatyou want to launch and somebody

(33:16):
says, "Are you crazy?" Those arethe projects you need to bet, right?
So that's the last part.
That's the eighth pillarabout value creation.
Brilliant easy easy to do
Yeah.
But but I think you know one of thethings when you read this book is you
realize that i a nonnegotiable this

(33:36):
Yeah.
the
Yeah, I love it
and I get I mean I get it it
if you're if you're a leaderof an organization you're close
to retirement you're like goingOh boy do I really wanna go
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But it's a legacy uhlike you could leave and
Yeah.
Yeah
rather than just land the plane gentlyinto your retirement why why not go
Yeah

(33:57):
bang and create something amazing Butlet's dive into reimagining organizations
and reimagining the project di drivenculture or re introducing it in
the first place not reimagining it
Yeah
you say here Better project managementalone is not enough Often the missing
piece is not the execution it's theecosystem And value is lost not in the

(34:19):
delivery process but in how organizationsprioritize sponsor adapt and embed
projects into their strategic core Theseare not project management problems they
are leadership and organizational designprojects You alluded to this earlier on
which is the habit of stopping projectsbecause this is such an important part of

(34:39):
the book but is so rare in organizationsto properly stop underperforming or
misaligned projects because that looksbad And you know it reminded me of the
old idea of the Toyota assembly linewhere anybody can stop the assembly line
Yeah
thought about how a hire cando this in the organization

(35:00):
Exactly
it so soon They they do it so sosoon and so regularly I thought
that was such an interesting
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so that's one of the examples whereyou say the people have the power, right?
And, and they, they…if they see something not
working, they can ha- stop it.
The, the… I think you mentioned thatat the beginning, is that people are a

(35:20):
bit afraid with the hierarchy, right?
And when, when I teach, I sayforget about being afraid.
Now, companies need people thatif you need somebody from the
leaders to be a sponsor or toprioritize, you stop the initiative.
I, I stop the transformation, boss,unless you dedicate two hours per week.
You have now the power, the right,and maybe the obligation to, if

(35:42):
you're doing a transformation and youdon't have the elements from the top
that you need, stop it immediately.
You're not doing your job.
You're just wasting resources andtaking big risk for the company.
So I think we need toevolve to those levels.
When you have your listeners fromtransformation space, from project space,
innovation, you need to step up a bitmore because I don't think the people at

(36:06):
the top will change as much as we want
There's a subtle upskill hereyou say required and this is
a transition from deliveringprojects to being project driven
Yes
I'd love you to share this becauseagain ju just these little nudges
in the right direction are howhow change can initially start
Well, project driven, I, Ithink I always say start small.

(36:28):
So take your top one or top twoinitiative and really empower the teams.
Dedicate fully the resources to that team.
Be project driven, like whatwe were talking about the copy.
Just get the best people, focus onthat project, allow them to take
decisions, co-create part of thebenefits, part of the idea, get

(36:49):
involved and share the benefits andshare the success, and that creates…
Every time I've done that, uh, uh,Aidan, it has shown very positive, not
just results on that initiative, butthe whole company's looking at them
and say, "I want to be part of that.
I hate my old way of working.
I want to
be part," and that's what I callmove from project management

(37:12):
to project driven organization.
Just for one or two projects, sixmonths, the picture will be completely
different, almost guaranteed
when I worked in digital transformationI used to always say to our team
We're like Netflix working inside
Yeah.
Yes.
I love it.
Wow
y y what what what I was trying to do wascreate culture Now what I did wrong now in

(37:35):
retrospect was I kind of created us to bealmost like they were the dinosaur and and
that in a way that's the wrong way causeI create them as kind of the enemy and
Yeah.
should be the VC sponsoring
us
Yeah.
you you also don't want to bekind of tipping your hat to the
Yeah
organization and feel like you're in alesser position But the reason I share

(37:57):
that is you talk about this and andit's such an important thing that even
if you're in a toxic organization manypeople do work in toxic organizations
every project can have its own culture and
Ah
deliberately start thatculture from scratch
I love that, Aidan.
If, if you did that, bravo on you, becausethis is something we always miss, is that

(38:17):
you have a lot of power in a project ortransformation where you can say, "Okay,
we work like that in your day-to-day,that's fine, but these are the rules that
I want to set for this transformation.
We're all the same.
We're a team.
I need you.
I want that you are yourself, Aidan.
I know you're bright.
Come up with ideas.
If you feel that you're notsecure, just come and, and tell us.

(38:39):
If we're going to succeed, it's becausewe're going to be working as a team.
It's not going to be, "See, we knowwhat happens if we don't do it, so
let's work on the team first," andthis is the culture I want to share.
You lived that when youwere doing sports, right?
It's so important.
Depends on the team you play,you, you had different culture.
It was the coach who wassetting those values.

(39:02):
You can do that, and, and I think thiswill be… If people who listen and
focus on this, the next week, they'regoing to see a major change on, on
how the people see them and how theorganization see them, and it will
impact the result of the project.
So good comment.
I thought it was really important So wwe won't have time to get all the points

(39:24):
across in the book obviously But ideaof killing projects or kill criteria
also starts at the start So this uheven starts before you even start the
project to create this cultural habitwith inside an organization and you share
a refined approach for this and I'd loveyou to d dive into this So set clear

(39:44):
evaluation criteria Two limit projecttime frames to thr two to three three
to six months and then three accelerateclosure once the decision is clear I'd
love you to bring us on a whirlwindtour If there was one little lesson you
were gonna give us in the middle of yourfamily holiday what would it be around
closing closing or killing projects

(40:06):
Well, for me, the-- I think thebiggest issue that we have t- in,
in project management for years waswe were always seeking perfection.
That means everything has to becompleted a hundred percent, and then
otherwise, the project will not finish.
What happens is that you finishninety percent, uh, in your two,
three years, and then, but thenthe, the, the tail drags forever.

(40:29):
So I think a good project transformationleader today is seen the one that cuts
and say, "Ninety percent is really good.
We're done.
We've done.
We move on." We still finish whateverit is, but not in a project scenario.
We just-- Everybody's free up.
We move them to another project, butfinishing early, it's such an important
part of good modern project management.

(40:51):
The other point that youcover is the killing.
The killing is… I think there's so manyprojects that should be killed right now.
A-Aidan, if you look at what happenedin the last six months, or, Thelma,
most of the technology projects shouldbe considered to be killed, right?
Because you started with one technology,and today, do you have the guts?
Do you have the, the way-- A thing, avery important-- I wrote a, a special

(41:14):
piece on HBR on this one, uh, because mostleaders are afraid of killing projects.
And so it's, it's you need to havethe setup, like we were talking about
Toyota, where I'm just a project member.
I say, "Listen, this projectdoesn't make sense anymore.
Let's pause this or let's kill it,and let's shift to something else." So
creating that cushion of reassuranceso that everybody can speak up

(41:38):
and say, "This doesn't make senseanymore," is so beneficial because
then people will come up and say--There will be more arguments about what
needs to go, what needs to continue.
So those two habits makea huge, huge difference
You inspired me I write aweekly article and this is
Yeah.
gonna write about

(41:58):
Really?
Idea of killing projects I I actuallymy metaphor was this there's a a cat
in a a a convalescent home in I thinkit's Rhode Island the cat when it it can
sense when somebody's about to die So
Well
effective this cat that when it goesoutside the door of one person's room
they ring the family and say Comealong Cause and and then what what

(42:21):
actually they discovered was cats cansmell what are called necromones which
Wow
these pheromones that signal thedeath of a cell or the death of a of a
Really?
being And I was like Oh this is
Wow.
For Somebody in an organization islike this cat can go around smelling
projects are are dying that's

(42:42):
Ciao
okay So we'll we'll we'll kill the we'llkill that project part one of killing
projects and we'll move on to the nextone which is exponential mindset culture
う ん。
this And and really what this taughtme was the value of thinking big but
there's three core principles behindthis Over to you to share this idea

(43:02):
Well, basically, yeah, it'ssomething that I didn't realize.
I was growing.
I've been doing corporate projects,transformation for 25 years, and I didn't
realize until I stepped back and said,"This is all crap." No, why, why most of
the projects are just 10% improvements,and where are our 10X improvement?

(43:24):
They, they were all killed.
They were … Nobody had the ideaanymore because we want play safe.
We will play safe, and mostof companies play safe.
And this is so frustrating becauseprojects allow you the opportunity
to create new things, to thinkbig, but we've just killed that
because of this culture of riskaversion, and for me, so frustrating.

(43:47):
And that's the point aboutthese are you crazy projects.
Where are your three topare you crazy projects?
Those are the ones you need to invest.
I was working the other day with abig insurance company, and they kind
of got this PDO concept and they say,"Yeah, we think that we need to have
more crazy ideas, and, and we have setup a 50 million euro budget for people

(44:10):
in the company to bring crazy ideas."
But you know what happened, Antonio?
We just spent two millions.
The people just asked for two millionout of the 50 because they were afraid
Brilliant A typicalinsurance company How do
Yeah.
this
Yeah, yeah.
Imagine.
So, and the other example I havealso very recent with a big bank,

(44:31):
a really international bank.
They say, "You know, we have thisgroup of crazy people who come with
crazy ideas, but they go throughthe budgeting cycle, and we kill
them all because they're crazy.
You cannot prove any…
And you know, we had this ideaof a bank called, uh, Revolut.
That idea, we had that muchbefore we kill it." Uh, you see?

(44:53):
So there's a problem in the culture.
There's a problem on the incentives.
There's a problem when you removethat and you allow to people think
exponential, which is your topic, Aidan.
Imagine it, it just so you're creatingthe future through these projects.
I think for me, the projectsthat determine your future are
your, are your crazy projects.
These are not the incremental ones

(45:16):
I'm gonna share again a table in thebook that just shows our audience and
maybe you'll just pick some of your top
Yeah
the ideas of shifting from incrementalto exponential And there's three core
principles you say You have to have timelydecisionmaking to do this You have to
have a culture of continuous learningand thus accepting that stuff will fail

(45:36):
but it's what you learn from the failures
Yeah
then I thought this was a reallyimportant one dualspeed ambition
which is locking in early value whilecontinuously pursuing larger exponential
opportunities that can shift the project'strajectory They were the three core
principles but this is the table fromthe book And again I'd love you just
to pick some of your top ones from this

(45:58):
What I wanted to put here is examples.
So the first one,launching a new mobile app.
Add two new features toexisting functionality.
This is what 99% of the projects,adding new features, but how can
we move into a build a platformsupporting 100% third-party?
That's exponential thinking.
For me, it's what you were saying,is having that focus on value.

(46:20):
How can we show value early?
Even if it's exponential, what willtell us that we're in the right path?
Also, thinking exponentiall- allows you to pivot.
It doesn't mean that you have it set.
These are all experiments,so you can move along.
That's why you need thatdual kind of approach.
One is on value, the other one ison flexibility, so you can keep, uh,

(46:43):
adjusting your, your vision and yourproject into whatever it will take
you at the end of the, the journey.
So for me, this is crucial and, and theproblem for me that I share here is, uh,
we are-- I, I'm sure if your readers andyour followers and listeners, they read

(47:04):
The Incremental Mindset, I'm sure theywill, they will be able to recognize
most of their projects there, right?
So this is for me where the biggerchange needs to happen from a project
and transformation perspective.
And just to finish, Aidan, I'm in--I'm saying now that if a transformation

(47:24):
leader or a project leader receivean incremental idea, he or she has
the right to push back and say,"Come on, we are going to do that?
10%? No, let's think big." Yeah.
What would mean if we wouldstart again from zero?
What would mean if weremove all the assumptions?
What would do?

(47:45):
So that's another role because AI isgoing to do many of the things that
we do in transformation and projects.
It's already doing that.
So where are we going to be adding value?
Exactly on this slide herethat you're showing, moving
from the middle to the right.
That's, for me, a bigstep into the future.
I love it man I was actually when Iwas reading this I was thinking an

(48:07):
example I use is just like caterpillarsto butterflies So there's a bunch
of caterpillars standing around andkind of going What what are your
goals for the year And they're likeI'm just gonna get a bit bigger
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Caterpillar's like No man I'm gonnafly I'm gonna fly And they're all
like going Oh crazy Jim over here
Yeah
I you know I was thinking about that Ththis helped me actually realized when

(48:29):
I was thinking about how the mindset ofdifferent people within an organization
the the neurodiversity actually leadsto different mindsets actually leads to
different ambitions And again a lot ofpeople who work in innovation are have
bigger views of the world or maybe theyeducate themselves slightly differently
Yes

(48:49):
And it when they do share I wanna be youknow amidst the caterpillars they go I
wanna fly or they wanna share instead ofincrementally growing the database by 10
I wanna create a community of 10 millionfollowers people people kind of go Oh man
will you just get real here Get realistic
Yes.
What's the immediate goal Andyou go Well maybe we'll increase

(49:11):
by you know 10 in the next year
Yeah
I wanna get here and there's that kindof shift and this is what the idea of
a an exponential mindset culture isThe there's another example I thought
would be useful to share which is underthe leadership of CEO Jesper Brodin
embarked on this exponential mindsetculture Maybe you give us a little view

(49:34):
of that So here's a good example of one
Well, IKEA, , it's one of these companythat has last and continue reinvents,
and the example you're talking aboutis the empowerment of the plants and
the, the, the shops to take decisionson their own about these new ideas.
This was around sustainability, andinstead of having the corporate team

(49:54):
deciding what should we do to become andreach our sustainability targets, they
just told the, the shops, "Let the peopledecide and think exponentially on how can
we become more sustainable, how can wesell better, more sustainable products?"
And it was amazing.
They created so many new things from thebottom up, and, and some of these ideas

(50:18):
scaled up and became global changes.
But it really was that empowerment topeople to think, exponentially and in
smaller teams closer to the client.
So this is usually, , what is notbeing done because the innovation
comes always from the top.
So the IKEA for me wasexactly that's what we need.

(50:40):
I I love what you write about IKEAhere You say as a an exponential
mindset builds on the belief thatcapabilities whether human technological
or organizational can grow dramaticallythrough bold experimentation learning
and scaled ambition The exponentialmindset is about designing and executing
projects that radically acceleratevalue creation and redefine what the

(51:02):
organization believes is achievable Sothat's exponential mindset culture but
maybe we'll finish with this one Sohow do we build an open and transparent
execution culture Because here you lookat how to enable an open and transparent
culture to create the conditions forfast informed decisions and hightrust
collaboration across the organizationalso desiloing the organization And

(51:27):
this is where you talk about theimportance of embracing experimentation
and project failure as a culture
Well, this is, uh part ofthe cultural change, right?
Transf- transparency means thatif you fail, you say you fail.
If, if you need help, you ask for help.
If things are going great, you say,"Great job." So, but we have this culture

(51:49):
where it's, it's you share the goodnews, you don't share the bad news.
There's a great example from AlanMulally when he took over Ford, and,
and all the KPIs were in green, andthe company was losing billions.
And it took him, like, three or fourmeetings before anybody just changed
and, and was honest about the results.
And they, they all needed help,but they didn't dare to ask for.

(52:12):
So transparency is about just like youare with your friends, with your family.
You just say, "I have a problem.
I need some help." And you cannot imaginehow difficult it is for people to say, "I
need help, and, and let's work as a team."
Again, I love sports.
I also come with very sports background,and if you need help, you ask your

(52:32):
team, and they will do it, right?
And I, I, I can.
But in businesses, somehow everythingbecomes very opaque, and, and, and, and
it just hits the performance, obviously,and, and creates a culture of always
good news, which is just not true.
So transparency is kindof… I don't know.
It- it's the glue thatputs everything together.

(52:54):
If you're not transparent,PDO will not work.
I worked in a very toxicki public organization for
Yeah
time and I used to do this as a kindof a joke didn't l I didn't last
there very long Antonio I used toThey had meeting rooms throughout the
organization and I used to write onth as we were leaving leaving on like

(53:17):
flip charts or or or whiteboards I'd
Oh, yeah
Thunderbolt right
Yeah.
It up there And then I wanted to seedid it come back around And like later
on I'd hear from people saying Heydo do you know anything about Project
Thunderbolt And I was like No nothingCause I wanted to see how paranoid

(53:39):
People
was And and you say in thebook here in many companies
information about transformationprojects is siloed fragmented
Mm-hmm.
Often contradictory And I thought aboutthis where you talk about in these PDOs
if you were a really wellcultured projectprojectoriented organization you use your

(54:01):
town halls and you use those moments forboth mentioning failure so somebody might
have failed but in the in the pursuitof excellence Or share the projects that
are going across the organization Because
Thank
like the Malani examplesomebody might have
you, Sangeet
that before and go Hey I I can actuallyhelp there We've had the same issue

(54:22):
before I'd love you to share a bitabout that because that opens it
up Because most people just use ththese m ask me anything sessions as
Yeah
a monologue but they can besomething totally different
Yeah, for me it's what you justsaid, is when you have a town hall
or when you have a steering committeeor communication, start with the
things that don't go very well.

(54:43):
Start with the things where you need help.
Have you ever heard any CEO or seniorexecutive saying, "I need help. I, I
need you guys to work together on this"?
No, they don't say because asking for helpis like you're weak or you're a loser.
And on the contrary is what you werejust saying, is that starting with
this communication just creates moretrust on, on you as a leader, on

(55:06):
you on the focus and the priorities.
So, insisting on these are the topthree things that we need to deliver
in the next six months, and I wantyou to put an effort on that, and I'm
here also to support you if you…
That makes such a, a speech less,uh, less corporate and more human,
and that's what you need in a PDO.

(55:26):
PDO.
Projects are made by people, and if thepeople trust you, and you need to stop
a project because there's a good…They will be okay, as long as you're
transparent and, and, and you share thereasons why we need to stop it, what we
learned, and where we're moving next.
And, it's so obvious that sometimeswhen we chat about this and now
with you, Aidan, I say, "But comeon, do I… I'm saying something

(55:49):
new? Or it's just, it's just in-incredible that we need to be talking
about this?" But it's so important.
Thank you for bringing that.
Okay man I I heard what you said You saidWhen a project's 90% it's good enough
Yeah.
finishing early is finishing
Oh, wow.
So
You got it
I have a key little point I wantedto share just a little excerpt from

(56:12):
the book But as I'm doing that I'dlove you to prepare think about
your final message for audience
Okay
remind the audience as well I have acopy of the book up for grabs Just be
in the Substack the Innovation ShowSubstack It's under the Thursday Thought
on Substack and I'll share in the notesAnd also Antonio I'm gonna ask where
people can find you but I love what youwrote here and I usually pick out an

(56:35):
excerpt from the book that I love And youwrote Leadership transparency in project
governance does not mean handing overevery decision to consensus I think that's
so important It means being explicitabout how decisions are made what data
is used and how progress will be measuredIt means sharing what's working and
what is not working early and often andmost importantly it means modeling the

(57:00):
behaviors such as admitting uncertaintycorrecting course and celebrating learning
that make transparency sustainable.
Absolutely love that To you man firstwhere is where can people find you
Always easy, LinkedIn,Antonio Nieto Rodriguez.
My website is the same,antonionietorodriguez.com.

(57:20):
I think that's the two ways.
And I love every time somebodyreach out, I always respond, with
comments or feedback, whatever.
I love that.
And, I just… It's hardto say more things, Aidan.
I think you just summarized it very well.
If you're a leader, I think peopleare looking for you in a different
way than they did in the past.
So don't be afraid.
Move out of the comfort zone.

(57:41):
Spend more time on thetransformation space.
The legacy that you're goingto leave is based on the
changes that you're making now.
It's not what you did in the past,and that means spending time on
transformation, building that culturewhere everything works as co-creation.
The teams are in power, and you'resomebody that orchestrates, and, and

(58:03):
like you said, take decisions, butlet the team also take most of them.
And if you're in a transformation teamor transformation lead, step up, please.
I think you have the right to ask.
You have the right to, to, totake the things that you need for
your project to be successful.
You all know why projects fail.
You all know why transformation…Don't let failure happen again and

(58:24):
again because you are afraid ofspeaking up and asking what you need.
It will make a huge difference.
And last one, Aidan, thinkpeople first, even in projects.
When you have a team, and we knowwhat's the difference between a group of
people and a team of committed people.
Spend the time, create thatteam, and things will go just

(58:45):
flying, and people will love you.
So that's all.
And I, I really thank you, Aidan.
You're so well prepared.
I think I've never been in an interviewwith somebody so well prepared
Good project management man
I love it
is as is finishing early and Iwanna thank you again for taking

(59:07):
the time out of your family holiday,well-deserved family holiday, to
Thank you
So very, very grateful.
Author of Powered By Projects, AntonioNieto-Rodriguez, thank you for joining us.
Gracias.
Thanks as always to our sponsor, Kyndryl,who runs and reimagines the technology
systems that drive advantage for theworld's leading businesses with a unique
blend of AI-powered consulting built onunmatched managed service capability.

(59:31):
Kyndryl helps leaders harness thepower of technology for smarter
decisions, faster innovation,and a lasting competitive edge.
You can find out more aboutKyndryl and the Kyndryl
Institute at KYNDRYL, kyndryl.com