June 24, 2026 • 33 mins
"Narcissists do draw people in. They start with really appealing visions — and then the wheels come off."
About 2% of people are narcissists. Among CEOs, it's roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman — Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and one of the world's leading scholars of organisational culture — joins Aidan McCullen to explain why narcissistic leadership is so often mistaken for visionary leadership, and how to tell the two apart before one wrecks your company.
Drawing on her widely cited article with Stanford's Charles O'Reilly, "Transformational Leader or Narcissist?", and her new book Making Organizational Culture Great, Jennifer separates the grandiose vision we admire from the exploitation that comes attached to it. This episode follows directly on from the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile — because Jobs is one of the case studies.
In this conversation, Jennifer reveals:
- Why a narcissistic CEO's pay quietly pulls away from their team's over time — and what that gap really measures
- The single interview question that exposes a narcissist: "Who did you bring along with you?"
- Why Steve Jobs ended his career with 13 senior leaders who'd stayed 13 years — and what that says about him
- How "grandiose vision" and "narcissism" overlap on a Venn diagram — and where they split
- The "dark triad" that turns confidence into damage: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism
- Why narcissistic CEOs file far more lawsuits — yet win no more of them
- The counter-intuitive team move: group your narcissists together
- Why narcissism's damage to a culture is "sticky" — it lingers long after the leader leaves
- How to shield yourself when you can't leave — and when to look for the exit
- Why chaos and uncertainty are a narcissist's favourite weather
Chapters
00:00 Cold open: how narcissist CEOs pull away from their teams
02:00 Welcome Jennifer Chatman, and the Steve Jobs connection
04:00 Kalanick, Holmes, Trump: the quotes that give a narcissist away
05:00 Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists — and how they draw you in
07:00 The delayed damage: pay, credit, and the dark triad
16:00 The one question that exposes a narcissist
19:00 Risk, lawsuits, and the denial of failure
24:00 Ethics, collaboration, and the sticky cost to culture
27:00 How to protect yourself, and Making Organizational Culture Great
(Timestamps follow the transcript markers — shift after the final edit.)
About the Host
Aidan McCullen, 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI/disruption/innovation/change, host of The Innovation Show, author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Links: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen
About the Guest
Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer. With Stanford's Charles O'Reilly she wrote the widely cited article "Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destr
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
what we found is that the impactof narcissistic leaders is delayed.
(00:06):
So we actually looked at the early daysfor narcissists, and in fact, people
were all together with them and infact, the top team was very connected
to the CEO, who was a narcissist.
But over time, what we found isthat a lot of things separated, and
(00:27):
one of the most sort of distinctrepresentations of that was we tracked
CEO and top team compensation over time.
what we found with narcissists wasthat the CEO's compensation separated
from the top team's compensationover time to get much higher.
The CEOs took more credit for success,whereas for non-narcissistic CEOs, it
(00:53):
went actually in the opposite direction.
The CEO and the top team'scompensation actually came
together and was more similar.
So CEOs think of themselves asbeing one that should be attributed
with the success and the one whohas sort of made things happen.
Transformational leaders challengethe status quo, provide a vision
(01:14):
of a promising future, and motivateand inspire their followers to join
in the pursuit of a better world.
But many of these leaders alsofit the American Psychiatric
Association classification fornarcissist personality disorder.
They are grandiose, entitled,self-confident, risk-seeking,
manipulative, and hostile.
(01:37):
Today's episode is based on a highly citedarticle that reviews the literature on
narcissism and shows how what we think ofas transformational leadership overlaps
substantially with grandiose narcissism.
This episode is specifically positionedafter that two-part episode we just had
with Geoffrey Cain on Steve Jobs in exile.
(01:59):
Because, as you know,Jobs was a narcissist.
It is a pleasure to welcome the authorof Transformational Leader or Narcissist:
How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create andDestroy Organizations and Institutions.
Jennifer Chatman, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
A pleasure to be here
It's so great to have you.
First things first, yourteam were straight onto me.
(02:21):
They're like, "You know she's justwritten a book?" And I was like, "No,
not another book on the list." Solet's share that because your work on
narcissists is actually interwoven intothis new book on organizational cultures
That's right.
The book is called "Making CultureGreat," and what we try to do in the
book is address a set of popular beliefsabout organizational culture, does
(02:45):
culture matter on the bottom line?
The answer is yes, accordingto all of the research.
Does culture always start from the top?
No, not always, but often.
executives have a larger impact on anorganization's culture than any other
single individual in an organization.
And so we really go through the research,my co-author and I, Glenn Carroll, who's
(03:08):
a professor at Stanford, we go throughthe research and really address these
various popular beliefs, sometimes Icall them myths, about organizational
culture and try to help leadersleverage culture for strategic success
It's so important.
I said to you before we came on air thatI'm just after coming from a workshop
(03:30):
over in London, and I said to theteam, and the team was full of people.
There were CEOs there fromdifferent countries, Ghana,
Nigeria, Jordan, and Netherlands.
And I said to them, "You know, most CEOs,particularly in the US, are narcissists."
And they all started laughing.
They're gonna go, "Our CEO is here." Butthere's a reason I share that, because
(03:52):
on, on the opening of this article, I'lljust give the, our audience a few quotes
here, and then tell them who said them.
"Imagine if we could create themost just workplace in the world.
We would naturally be a magnet forall the great minds out there."
That's Travis Kalanick,the founder of Uber.
We know what happened to him.
This is one of the best ones.
"I don't want to make an incrementalchange in some technology in my life.
(04:15):
I want to create a whole new technologyand one that is aimed at helping
humanity at all levels, regardless ofgeography or ethnicity or age or gender."
Elizabeth Holmes, founder of Theranos.
There's many more.
Adam Neumann, WeWork, is in there.
Steve Jobs in there, and of course,DT, Donald Trump, is in there, one
of the best narcissists of all time.
(04:37):
So let's share this conceptof why a lot of leaders and
presidents seem to be narcissists.
Well, what we know is that the kindof base rate for narcissism in the
population as a whole is about 2%.
But if you look at CEOpositions, climbs to about 16%.
(04:58):
So it's not that all CEOs arenarcissists, but a disproportionate
number of CEOs are narcissists.
And the question is why?
And so one of the reasons is thatnarcissists seek out positions of power
with high visibility and high exposure.
(05:19):
Another reason which we can get into more,which I think is the more interesting and
sort of manageable side of the house, isthat we as observers of narcissists often
confuse the behaviors that narcissistsexhibit with visionary leadership.
I'm so interested in this because yousometimes get sucked in by a narcissist.
(05:41):
I've worked for a couple, well, atleast two, maybe more, and they, at the
start, seem so compelling, so different.
They make you feel special.
They make you feel like they'regonna change the world, and
you wanna be part of that.
And then the wheels come offpretty soon when you're blamed
for stuff you didn't do.
You're gaslit oftentimes, andactually you kind of start to question
(06:02):
yourself and they know how to do this.
And one of the reasons I feel yourwork is so important is many people who
have experienced that think it's them.
They think they're the problem, andthat's what the narcissist wants because
they want them to bend to their will.
I thought we'd share a little bitof the, about that because it's
kind of like the Force in Star Wars.
You can use it for good or not so good.
So you can be Yoda oryou can be Darth Vader
(06:24):
Well, narcissists do have ability to drawpeople in because they have this kind
of grandiosity and they're overconfidentabout their ability to accomplish things.
often they start with reallyappealing kinds of visions.
I mean, when you think about Elon Musk andhis ambitions for the human race, right?
(06:45):
I mean, that's fantastic.
So we're, we're kind of drawn in.
What we found and, my partner in thiswork, my co-author, Charles O'Reilly,
another professor at Stanford, I'm aprofessor at UC Berkeley, and the dean
there at the Haas School of Berkeleywhat we found is that the impact
of narcissistic leaders is delayed.
(07:08):
So we actually looked at the early daysfor narcissists, and in fact, people
were all together with them and infact, the top team was very connected
to the CEO, who was a narcissist.
But over time, what we found isthat a lot of things separated, and
(07:29):
one of the most sort of distinctrepresentations of that was we tracked
CEO and top team compensation over time.
what we found with narcissists wasthat the CEO's compensation separated
from the top team's compensationover time to get much higher.
The CEOs took more credit for success,whereas for non-narcissistic CEOs, it
(07:55):
went actually in the opposite direction.
The CEO and the top team'scompensation actually came
together and was more similar.
So CEOs think of themselves asbeing the being one that should be
attributed with the success and theone who has sort of made things happen.
There was a really funny partthat you mentioned in the article
(08:18):
where you talk about Donald Trump.
So a book by 27 psychiatrists and mentalhealth professionals analyzed Dr- Donald
Trump's behaviors, concluded that hisgrandiosity, sense of entitlement,
impulsiveness, willingness to exploitothers, lack of empathy, hostility,
and willingness to ignore embarrassingfacts were so extreme that they could be
characterized as malignant narcissism.
(08:40):
So this is, there's a scale tonarcissism, and I think it's important
for our audience to know that.
But also, when you wrote this, thiswas about his first term not the second
term, which has just gone off the scale.
But what was so funny in that paper thatyou wrote, that w- at one point on one
of the interviews, he says, "I'm probablythe most humble person you've ever met."
(09:01):
So even his humility is out of scale.
Right.
He simultaneously, I can't rememberthe exact quote, "I'm probably
the most humble person you've evermet. You have no idea," or, right?
Simultaneously himself in somepositive way, humility, and
putting others down, right?
So, so increasing , thedifference between, you know,
(09:24):
my goodness and your mediocrity.
That, that's right.
I have to say that I've tried to…I'm not a clinical psychologist,
I'm not a psychiatrist.
I have tried to stay away from identifyingsomeone as narcissistic or not.
I am not, able to make thatdiagnosis with any deep expertise.
(09:44):
But there is a distinction between whatthe DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical
Manual, which is what the field ofpsychiatry and psychology use to identify
what they call malignant narcissists,who are so that it actually interferes
with their ability to function in life.
(10:05):
So Donald Trump is the president, andthere is some functionality at some level.
But there is a distinctionbetween those two types.
We're really talking about, in ourarticle the kind of garden variety of
narcissism that exists on the continuumin the kind of normal population.
(10:26):
You mention a book, The Narcissist NextDoor, and this guy, Jeffrey Kluger,
the author, he observed that a littlenarcissism can be a good thing in
many jobs, but a lot of narcissismis a bad thing in almost all jobs.
And it's an important distinctionbecause you talk about, for example,
in times of crisis, you don'twant a peaceful military leader.
(10:48):
You want somebody who has that riskprofile that's gonna take on huge risks.
But there's also threats in there.
Maybe we'll talk a bit about that becausea lot of the audience from the Innovation
Show work in innovation, and we see thatmany organizations are run by kind of
more stable stable type leaders thatare good when things are going well,
(11:09):
but when things aren't going so well,you need a different type of leader.
And in there is a little bitof nuance, and I'd love you to
share your experience of that.
so actually my co-author Charles O'Reillyand I debate about this, and I think
he's more on the side of-- I d- I don'twanna speak for him, but I think he
would say, yes, there are some instanceswhere narcissism may be functional and
(11:33):
helpful, and he actually has done someother research that shows that's true.
maybe I'm more sort of naive about this orm- more of an optimist, I believe that you
can have confidence without, narcissism.
So you could be a leader who isgood in emergency situations and who
(11:56):
reads the room and takes control andmakes good judgments without those
other attributes of narcissism.
And this is what I wish for in the worldbecause the narcissism piece always comes
with an exploitation component to it.
And so it-- there's alwaysgoing to be some element of
(12:18):
being less well off so that thenarcissist-cists can be more well off.
And so, I think there are plentyof leaders who I would not code as
narcissists who do very well in emergencysituations and you could rely on for
taking charge and making good decisions.
And where I was going withthat was Charles O'Reilly, of
(12:40):
course, Tushman O'Reilly is knownwell , in the innovation show for.
He's been on the show many times.
We covered his work oncorporate exploration.
But that concept of exploit-explore,I, I thought about how that maps
to this because the exploit kindaleader is the peaceful times leader.
But actually can, if they'renarcissistic, they can actually exploit
(13:00):
people withinside the organizationto look great, take all the rewards
of the company, and actually, onthe long term, it will suffer.
But as you ta- as you sharedthere, you want them really for
the explore phase, or oftentimesthey're seen in entrepreneurship
that you talk about in the paper
That's right., I mean, the, Thegrandiosity is the part that
(13:21):
I think we all resonate with.
The big ideas, the big vision, theconfidence that we can make it happen,
the ability to really dream big andthink that can make great things happen.
That's amazing, and I think, other peoplewho are more modest and have more humility
may not even let themselves dream thatbig because it, it seems unimaginable
(13:45):
and fantastical that they could evermake something like that happen.
So this is a valuableattribute in general.
But again, I would ask the question,could you as an innovation expert figure
out ways to unleash big, grandioseideas in non-narcissistic people?
(14:07):
We would be a lot betteroff if that would happen.
You referred to the two different streamsof thought, I thought this was really
interesting because I think now when youread this paper and you read a little
bit into narcissism, you kinda startto judge people you've worked with.
And you talked about one stream ofthinking or research around narcissism
e- emerges from the clinical traditionthat you mentioned, but this is
(14:30):
vulnerable or covert narcissism, andthat comes from this sense of neuroticism
or fragile self-concept that they'realways trying to prove themselves.
They've low self-esteem that reaches rightback into the inner child of childhood.
But then the other one is pathologicalor maladaptive and emphasizes
defensive self-presenta- presentationstemming from low self-esteem
(14:53):
and a more introverted nature.
I'd love you to share th- those twodifferences because I'm sure lots
of people listening are diagnosing
Yeah
their partner, their children,everybody they know, 'cause we
tend to do this, but it's useful tounderstand these two distinctions.
Yeah.
Well, the first type, the more neuroticversion of narcissism, we don't see
(15:15):
as seeking out leadership roles.
So it's less likely that people inthat category would have positions
of power and control over us.
it may be the case that you'releading a person who's like that,
and that's still difficult, and it'sprobably a higher drama situation
that you have to work through.
(15:36):
But those folks are less likely to be inleadership positions just based on their
introversion and lack of self-confidence.
It's, it's really the other version thatwe're talking about here the kind of
extroverted grandiosity, exploitativeand it often links with something called
(15:58):
the dark triad, which is narcissism,sociopathy and Machiavellianism.
And you can see how thoseall link together, right?
If you're grandiose and you're actuallybelieving that you can accomplish
ridiculously enormous things, you'realmost lying to yourself, but,
you're much more prone to crossethical boundaries and I can talk
(16:22):
more about that in research terms.
But you're also someone whoseeks power and, exploits others.
So the three often go together,and this is a recipe for who's
going to go for those big jobs.
And so, one thing that we thinkabout is, well, who are the
decision makers for the CEO role?
(16:46):
That's boards of directorsprimarily in public firms.
And the board, has to really thinkabout how to distinguish between this
visionary leader and a narcissisticleader, because if you think about those
in terms of Venn diagrams, they overlap.
so the trick is reallyto distinguish the two.
(17:08):
And in my view, one of the mostsignificant ways to distinguish
between a visionary leader and anarcissist is to ask the question:
Who have you brought along with you?
Who have you developed?
And what you would see is thatthe visionary leader would bring
a whole team along with them.
(17:29):
They would probably have some folkswho stayed with them for a long time,
and may be a little bit blasphemousbecause I know you just had the two
episodes on Steve Jobs, but by the endof Steve Jobs' career, he had a stable
team of 13 senior leaders on his teamwho had been with him for 13 years.
(17:53):
There was a kind of stability andconsistency there that really worked well,
and I think it showed that to whateverextent Steve Jobs was a narcissist earlier
in his career, he at least figured outhow to behaviorally modify his behavior
to bring success to Apple and growth.
(18:15):
So this is very important to ask thequestion, whether you're interviewing
a CEO or a potential manager, you wannaknow, who did you bring along with you?
Where are they now?
Are you still in touch?
Are you someone who mentors others?
Let me see the evidence.
And with a narcissist, you would probablysee fewer, if any real allies for the
(18:40):
long run and, much more variation in therelationships that they've had across time
I'm glad you said that because actuallywhat you said about Jobs is actually
the real story in that book, which ishis kind of hero to zero, back to hero
again, and that middle period wherehe kinda had that belly of the whale
(19:00):
moment, and he lost everyone, andactually went, "I gotta change my ways."
That's the lovely story that's in there.
And not blasphemous at all, I founda quote, by the way, by Trump and
I, my notes say, "Grandiose evenin his humility." Donald Trump once
stated on 60 Minutes in 20 17 that,"I'm much more humble than you
(19:20):
would ever understand, you cretin."
Right.
I'm throwing that in there, you moron.
But th- this, one of the things thatyou talk about, which was, I was
mapping this to the Jobs story thatI just read, and how when a grandiose
narcissist gets successful, they're,like, unbearable because they've had a
(19:41):
success, and then their chips, they thinkthey c- they become more risk-tolerant.
They go crazy with the risk.
People trust them, and it'skinda like in your head.
I know I've done this myself whereI worked for one, and he was a, a
millionaire, so you're kinda going,"Oh, well, maybe he's right and I'm
wrong. Maybe I need to bulk up alittle bit here." And you start to
question your own reality, but thisis one of the gifts that they have.
(20:03):
the gift of self-promotion andthe denial of failure, right?
And so they would even… evidence that,we might use to introspect and learn would
not be the evidence that they would use.
They would look at a situationthat maybe had a mixed outcome
(20:23):
and chalk it up as a 100% success.
You know, we see many examples of thatin politics and in executive life.
What we also find, though, is adifferent risk profile for narcissists.
They are much more risk-seekingbecause of their overconfidence.
(20:43):
They simply believe that they're right.
One of the ways that we tested this inan academic paper was that we looked at
how litigious narcissistic CEOs were, andwhat we found was that more narcissistic
leaders were much more likely to beembroiled in significantly more lawsuits.
(21:06):
were no more likely towin those lawsuits, right?
But they were much more willingto engage in them, and often as
plaintiffs, meaning that they thoughtthey had a case to bring when in
fact there, there was nothing there.
And so that kind of righteousness canbe very detrimental for organizations
(21:27):
because CEOs can lead organizationsinto situations that is, that are
gonna make them, worse off as aresult of the CEO's overconfidence.
I think we all enjoy seeing a narcissistget their comeuppance, but one of the
things that I, I, like, I, I believe theuniverse doesn't let you away with it and
keeps receipts, but when you read aboutit, you're like, they don't feel guilt.
(21:53):
So actually they're, they're goingaround thinking they're the ones hard
done by most of the time, to your pointabout bringing lawsuits against people.
So they have just this totally distortedreality, and therefore they use a lot of
people, like, who work for them as justlike they're a pen or as some type of
tool, and they have no empathy for you.
And I, I think it's important, Jennifer,to call that out because, again, I
(22:16):
know a lot of people who have workedfor narcissists, and they've ended
up getting, like, therapy and stufflike that because they feel broken.
And I think this is the antidote,is understanding that these people
exist in the world, just likepsychopaths, just like Machiavellianism.
It exists out there, andit's not you, it's them
Yeah, there's definitely a vic- victimorientation that narcissists have that
(22:39):
they believe that they've been wronged.
They have-- for as exploitative andinsensitive as they are to others, they
have incredibly thin skin themselves.
And so, that is not a reciprocal--it's not a symmetric relationship,
if you will, and it would be naturalfor a non-narcissist to be really
(23:00):
exhausted by working with a narcissist.
I have a very recent paper with one of mycolleagues at Berkeley, Juliana Schroeder,
where we found-- where it's just aboutto come out in a journal article form.
We found that in groups,narcissists thrive in working
with other narcissists, but theyabsolutely deflate non-narcissists.
(23:23):
It's a very difficult situation.
So if you're a leader and you're lookingat your team and you notice you have
a few narcissists, group them together'cause they'll work together fine.
They have similar norms, they can goat each other and make things happen.
But don't mix them in with thepeople who are, have more humility
and compassion and, are more atthe normal level of narcissism.
(23:47):
So I don't have much time with youtoday, so I really would like to
flip to the positive side, whichis how do you deal with this?
So in the article and inyour new book, you talk about
the consequence of grandiosenarcissis- cism for organizations.
But also then you talk about,well, what can you do about this?
And I'd love you to share those.
And it, it goes to kind of the basicsof like, well, you nip it in the bud.
(24:09):
First, you don't hire them inthe first place, or to your
point, you can identify them.
I'd love you to share someof those kind of ways.
So for HR leaders listening to theshow, or CEOs or entrepreneurs who
are starting their business, becauseoften they get duped into bringing in
a narcissist and they break the company
Well, l- let me say first, I think oneof our most important findings was kind
(24:34):
of enduring impact that narcissisticCEOs can have on an organization.
In one study that we did, we foundthat companies run by narcissists
were significantly more likelyto, , be lower on ethics in their
culture and lower on collaboration.
(24:54):
In other words, narcissistscause organizations to
de-emphasize being ethical, right?
To cross those ethical boundaries.
And it's not just the narcissist doingthat, it's the narcissist encouraging
the entire organization to do that.
And second, less collaborative, meaningthat people to have allegiance to
(25:15):
them, but not to each other, becausethat's a source , of power if people
are connected to each other andnot with the narcissistic leader.
This is very problematic because if youthink about ethics and collaboration,
these are two sort of non-negotiablesfor organizational survival, right?
(25:36):
Being ethical, like following thelaw, is a base for organizational
sur- survival and success.
And collaboration is also a keyreason why you organize in the first
place, is because people can do thingstogether that they can't do alone.
So narcissists can threaten thevery essence of organizational
(25:59):
survival, and that's why it'sreally important to identify them.
only do they affect the culture thisway, but their impact is sticky.
What we found is that companies led bynarcissists not only experience those
cultures while the in the role, but evenafter the there was a kind of residual
(26:22):
cultural impact of their presence.
So we have to think both abouthow to nip it in the bud, right?
Which is being vigilant on searchcommittees for leadership positions.
You should expect thatnarcissists are gonna apply.
If it's an important position, narcissistsare gonna seek out that position.
(26:44):
And then you should really tryto be thoughtful about how much
of the vision that the narcissistis painting is actually real.
What's the evidence?
Can you show me that you'veactually done some of these things?
Can you tell me thesteps that you've taken?
And of course, that very, veryimportant question, which is: Who
(27:05):
did you bring along with you, and whodid you promote as a result of it?
Are some of your people running othercompanies now because they learned so much
from you and have become so successful?
So these are the kinds of discussionsthat search committees need to
have, and really be cognizant ofdifferentiating between that visionary
piece and the narcissistic piece.
(27:26):
Then Once a few narcissists havegotten through, the question
is how, to deal with that.
If you recognize that your leader isa narcissist, you may wanna think hard
about whether that's the right place foryou, the right time for you to be there,
and whether there are other options.
But if you don't have the flexibility tomove quickly, then you wanna find ways
(27:51):
to shield yourself from the exploitation.
One, straightforward thing thatyou can do is you can try to
gain the narcissist's trust.
If you can gain the narcissist'strust, you can kind of manage upward
and do things that will cause thenarcissist to be less observant of what
(28:12):
you're doing and less micromanaging.
This is true aboutleaders in general, right?
If you can manage your leader andfulfill the things that is making your
leader worried they can back off andnot micromanage, you're better off.
That is absolutely true for a narcissist.
Figure out what it is they're concernedabout, make sure they know you're the
(28:32):
go-to person to solve that issue, andthey don't need to worry about it anymore.
I would also if, as I said, if you'rea manager of narcissists, I would be
very cautious about how you engagethem in collaborative work, because
you'll-- you should expect that they'regonna be difficult for others to work
(28:53):
with, and they're gonna take morecredit for whatever success emerges,
and they're gonna be more likelyto blame others for any problems.
And so as a leader of narcissists, youwant to account for that different version
of attribution that narcissists arelikely to bring forward and make sure that
you're giving your other people credit.
(29:15):
so those are just a few things.
I h- honestly, if you really seea full-blown narcissist who has
these, sociopathic and Machiavelliantendencies, would look for an exit.
It's a very, difficultsituation to manage.
It's still only 16%, so there's a wholeworld out there of non-narcissistic,
(29:38):
fantastic leaders who have visionand have an appropriate amount of
confidence who can, do great thingsand bring you along with them.
Beautiful.
I think it's just suchan important article.
I think it's gonna be interestingto read your book as well
when we get onto that book.
I just wanted to shareone little quote from it.
So this was Neville Chamberlain whomet Hitler, and after meeting Hitler,
(30:01):
he said, "This is a man who could berelied on when he had given his word."
So they are immensely great atinterview processes, as you share.
But what, the last thing Iwanted to share was w- was, it
was so important what you said.
They are very good when timesare uncertain, and there's
a reason I'm sharing that.
We've seen the effect of that politically,geopolitically lately when things are
(30:25):
uncertain, and they want to create thatuncertainty and make it last and make
themselves look like they're the leader.
And what happens then is you havemore of the out crowd become more
and more of the out crowd, andwe have this huge polarization.
I think that maybe as a lastpoint, that that is something
we all need to be aware of
Yeah, that's an excellent point.
(30:45):
I mean, de Tocqueville said that,particularly in times of a change in
chaos, we look to a leader who showsgreat certainty and confidence because we
want to create certainty for ourselves.
One of the biggest psychologicalchallenges that humans have
is to create certainty andpredictability out of chaos, right?
(31:08):
That's job one for humanbeings in the world.
We like when thingsare predictable, right?
We like to know that, thebehaviors that we engage in are
gonna be accepted in the world.
We like to be able to anticipate whatpeople are likely to do so that we can
either protect ourselves or get engaged.
to the extent that certainty doesn'texist, can step in and offer a bold
(31:33):
vision with great confidence that soundsvery appealing, and that certainty is
almost irresistible for us to follow.
So I think you raise a very timely concernthat we're facing and the polarization
that we're seeing, could be in some senseattributed to the narcissists all over the
(31:56):
world who are trying to get people to showallegiance to them rather than to find
broad solutions for the world as a whole.
Beautiful message to end on as well.
Jennifer, for people whowanna find out more about your
book, where's the best place?
And maybe you'll give us a topline of why you wrote that book
Again, we wrote that book, I think, tobust myths about organizational culture.
(32:21):
You know, many leaders think that cultureis fuzzy and not real, and it doesn't
have impact, and it can't be managed.
It's something thathappens to organizations.
And it turns out that there's kindof deep science behind organizational
culture, how you can deliberatelyleverage it for strategic success.
(32:43):
And so that's really what the book isall about, is bringing the research
literature for the, from the last 20years to managers so that they can
actually use it to develop a culture thatis aligned with their strategy, that's
strong, and that's adaptive over time.
The book is called "Making Culture Great"by Jennifer Chatman and Glenn Carroll.
(33:05):
It's at Columbia Business Press,but you can come to my website,
which is just Jennifer Chatman atBerkeley and you can find it there
And I will share the links to thatand the links to the local Amazons
as well for people to find it.
It was an absolute pleasure.
Author of Transformational Leaderor Narcissist: How Grandiose
(33:27):
Narcissists Can Create and DestroyOrganizations and Institutions, and
Making Organizational Cultures Great.
Jennifer Chatman, thank you for joining us
Thank you so much
what we found is that the impactof narcissistic leaders is delayed.
(00:06):
So we actually looked at the early daysfor narcissists, and in fact, people
were all together with them and infact, the top team was very connected
to the CEO, who was a narcissist.
But over time, what we found isthat a lot of things separated, and
(00:27):
one of the most sort of distinctrepresentations of that was we tracked
CEO and top team compensation over time.
what we found with narcissists wasthat the CEO's compensation separated
from the top team's compensationover time to get much higher.
The CEOs took more credit for success,whereas for non-narcissistic CEOs, it
(00:53):
went actually in the opposite direction.
The CEO and the top team'scompensation actually came
together and was more similar.
So CEOs think of themselves asbeing one that should be attributed
with the success and the one whohas sort of made things happen.
Transformational leaders challengethe status quo, provide a vision
(01:14):
of a promising future, and motivateand inspire their followers to join
in the pursuit of a better world.
But many of these leaders alsofit the American Psychiatric
Association classification fornarcissist personality disorder.
They are grandiose, entitled,self-confident, risk-seeking,
manipulative, and hostile.
(01:37):
Today's episode is based on a highly citedarticle that reviews the literature on
narcissism and shows how what we think ofas transformational leadership overlaps
substantially with grandiose narcissism.
This episode is specifically positionedafter that two-part episode we just had
with Geoffrey Cain on Steve Jobs in exile.
(01:59):
Because, as you know,Jobs was a narcissist.
It is a pleasure to welcome the authorof Transformational Leader or Narcissist:
How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create andDestroy Organizations and Institutions.
Jennifer Chatman, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much.
A pleasure to be here
It's so great to have you.
First things first, yourteam were straight onto me.
(02:21):
They're like, "You know she's justwritten a book?" And I was like, "No,
not another book on the list." Solet's share that because your work on
narcissists is actually interwoven intothis new book on organizational cultures
That's right.
The book is called "Making CultureGreat," and what we try to do in the
book is address a set of popular beliefsabout organizational culture, does
(02:45):
culture matter on the bottom line?
The answer is yes, accordingto all of the research.
Does culture always start from the top?
No, not always, but often.
executives have a larger impact on anorganization's culture than any other
single individual in an organization.
And so we really go through the research,my co-author and I, Glenn Carroll, who's
(03:08):
a professor at Stanford, we go throughthe research and really address these
various popular beliefs, sometimes Icall them myths, about organizational
culture and try to help leadersleverage culture for strategic success
It's so important.
I said to you before we came on air thatI'm just after coming from a workshop
(03:30):
over in London, and I said to theteam, and the team was full of people.
There were CEOs there fromdifferent countries, Ghana,
Nigeria, Jordan, and Netherlands.
And I said to them, "You know, most CEOs,particularly in the US, are narcissists."
And they all started laughing.
They're gonna go, "Our CEO is here." Butthere's a reason I share that, because
(03:52):
on, on the opening of this article, I'lljust give the, our audience a few quotes
here, and then tell them who said them.
"Imagine if we could create themost just workplace in the world.
We would naturally be a magnet forall the great minds out there."
That's Travis Kalanick,the founder of Uber.
We know what happened to him.
This is one of the best ones.
"I don't want to make an incrementalchange in some technology in my life.
(04:15):
I want to create a whole new technologyand one that is aimed at helping
humanity at all levels, regardless ofgeography or ethnicity or age or gender."
Elizabeth Holmes, founder of Theranos.
There's many more.
Adam Neumann, WeWork, is in there.
Steve Jobs in there, and of course,DT, Donald Trump, is in there, one
of the best narcissists of all time.
(04:37):
So let's share this conceptof why a lot of leaders and
presidents seem to be narcissists.
Well, what we know is that the kindof base rate for narcissism in the
population as a whole is about 2%.
But if you look at CEOpositions, climbs to about 16%.
(04:58):
So it's not that all CEOs arenarcissists, but a disproportionate
number of CEOs are narcissists.
And the question is why?
And so one of the reasons is thatnarcissists seek out positions of power
with high visibility and high exposure.
(05:19):
Another reason which we can get into more,which I think is the more interesting and
sort of manageable side of the house, isthat we as observers of narcissists often
confuse the behaviors that narcissistsexhibit with visionary leadership.
I'm so interested in this because yousometimes get sucked in by a narcissist.
(05:41):
I've worked for a couple, well, atleast two, maybe more, and they, at the
start, seem so compelling, so different.
They make you feel special.
They make you feel like they'regonna change the world, and
you wanna be part of that.
And then the wheels come offpretty soon when you're blamed
for stuff you didn't do.
You're gaslit oftentimes, andactually you kind of start to question
(06:02):
yourself and they know how to do this.
And one of the reasons I feel yourwork is so important is many people who
have experienced that think it's them.
They think they're the problem, andthat's what the narcissist wants because
they want them to bend to their will.
I thought we'd share a little bitof the, about that because it's
kind of like the Force in Star Wars.
You can use it for good or not so good.
So you can be Yoda oryou can be Darth Vader
(06:24):
Well, narcissists do have ability to drawpeople in because they have this kind
of grandiosity and they're overconfidentabout their ability to accomplish things.
often they start with reallyappealing kinds of visions.
I mean, when you think about Elon Musk andhis ambitions for the human race, right?
(06:45):
I mean, that's fantastic.
So we're, we're kind of drawn in.
What we found and, my partner in thiswork, my co-author, Charles O'Reilly,
another professor at Stanford, I'm aprofessor at UC Berkeley, and the dean
there at the Haas School of Berkeleywhat we found is that the impact
of narcissistic leaders is delayed.
(07:08):
So we actually looked at the early daysfor narcissists, and in fact, people
were all together with them and infact, the top team was very connected
to the CEO, who was a narcissist.
But over time, what we found isthat a lot of things separated, and
(07:29):
one of the most sort of distinctrepresentations of that was we tracked
CEO and top team compensation over time.
what we found with narcissists wasthat the CEO's compensation separated
from the top team's compensationover time to get much higher.
The CEOs took more credit for success,whereas for non-narcissistic CEOs, it
(07:55):
went actually in the opposite direction.
The CEO and the top team'scompensation actually came
together and was more similar.
So CEOs think of themselves asbeing the being one that should be
attributed with the success and theone who has sort of made things happen.
There was a really funny partthat you mentioned in the article
(08:18):
where you talk about Donald Trump.
So a book by 27 psychiatrists and mentalhealth professionals analyzed Dr- Donald
Trump's behaviors, concluded that hisgrandiosity, sense of entitlement,
impulsiveness, willingness to exploitothers, lack of empathy, hostility,
and willingness to ignore embarrassingfacts were so extreme that they could be
characterized as malignant narcissism.
(08:40):
So this is, there's a scale tonarcissism, and I think it's important
for our audience to know that.
But also, when you wrote this, thiswas about his first term not the second
term, which has just gone off the scale.
But what was so funny in that paper thatyou wrote, that w- at one point on one
of the interviews, he says, "I'm probablythe most humble person you've ever met."
(09:01):
So even his humility is out of scale.
Right.
He simultaneously, I can't rememberthe exact quote, "I'm probably
the most humble person you've evermet. You have no idea," or, right?
Simultaneously himself in somepositive way, humility, and
putting others down, right?
So, so increasing , thedifference between, you know,
(09:24):
my goodness and your mediocrity.
That, that's right.
I have to say that I've tried to…I'm not a clinical psychologist,
I'm not a psychiatrist.
I have tried to stay away from identifyingsomeone as narcissistic or not.
I am not, able to make thatdiagnosis with any deep expertise.
(09:44):
But there is a distinction between whatthe DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical
Manual, which is what the field ofpsychiatry and psychology use to identify
what they call malignant narcissists,who are so that it actually interferes
with their ability to function in life.
(10:05):
So Donald Trump is the president, andthere is some functionality at some level.
But there is a distinctionbetween those two types.
We're really talking about, in ourarticle the kind of garden variety of
narcissism that exists on the continuumin the kind of normal population.
(10:26):
You mention a book, The Narcissist NextDoor, and this guy, Jeffrey Kluger,
the author, he observed that a littlenarcissism can be a good thing in
many jobs, but a lot of narcissismis a bad thing in almost all jobs.
And it's an important distinctionbecause you talk about, for example,
in times of crisis, you don'twant a peaceful military leader.
(10:48):
You want somebody who has that riskprofile that's gonna take on huge risks.
But there's also threats in there.
Maybe we'll talk a bit about that becausea lot of the audience from the Innovation
Show work in innovation, and we see thatmany organizations are run by kind of
more stable stable type leaders thatare good when things are going well,
(11:09):
but when things aren't going so well,you need a different type of leader.
And in there is a little bitof nuance, and I'd love you to
share your experience of that.
so actually my co-author Charles O'Reillyand I debate about this, and I think
he's more on the side of-- I d- I don'twanna speak for him, but I think he
would say, yes, there are some instanceswhere narcissism may be functional and
(11:33):
helpful, and he actually has done someother research that shows that's true.
maybe I'm more sort of naive about this orm- more of an optimist, I believe that you
can have confidence without, narcissism.
So you could be a leader who isgood in emergency situations and who
(11:56):
reads the room and takes control andmakes good judgments without those
other attributes of narcissism.
And this is what I wish for in the worldbecause the narcissism piece always comes
with an exploitation component to it.
And so it-- there's alwaysgoing to be some element of
(12:18):
being less well off so that thenarcissist-cists can be more well off.
And so, I think there are plentyof leaders who I would not code as
narcissists who do very well in emergencysituations and you could rely on for
taking charge and making good decisions.
And where I was going withthat was Charles O'Reilly, of
(12:40):
course, Tushman O'Reilly is knownwell , in the innovation show for.
He's been on the show many times.
We covered his work oncorporate exploration.
But that concept of exploit-explore,I, I thought about how that maps
to this because the exploit kindaleader is the peaceful times leader.
But actually can, if they'renarcissistic, they can actually exploit
(13:00):
people withinside the organizationto look great, take all the rewards
of the company, and actually, onthe long term, it will suffer.
But as you ta- as you sharedthere, you want them really for
the explore phase, or oftentimesthey're seen in entrepreneurship
that you talk about in the paper
That's right., I mean, the, Thegrandiosity is the part that
(13:21):
I think we all resonate with.
The big ideas, the big vision, theconfidence that we can make it happen,
the ability to really dream big andthink that can make great things happen.
That's amazing, and I think, other peoplewho are more modest and have more humility
may not even let themselves dream thatbig because it, it seems unimaginable
(13:45):
and fantastical that they could evermake something like that happen.
So this is a valuableattribute in general.
But again, I would ask the question,could you as an innovation expert figure
out ways to unleash big, grandioseideas in non-narcissistic people?
(14:07):
We would be a lot betteroff if that would happen.
You referred to the two different streamsof thought, I thought this was really
interesting because I think now when youread this paper and you read a little
bit into narcissism, you kinda startto judge people you've worked with.
And you talked about one stream ofthinking or research around narcissism
e- emerges from the clinical traditionthat you mentioned, but this is
(14:30):
vulnerable or covert narcissism, andthat comes from this sense of neuroticism
or fragile self-concept that they'realways trying to prove themselves.
They've low self-esteem that reaches rightback into the inner child of childhood.
But then the other one is pathologicalor maladaptive and emphasizes
defensive self-presenta- presentationstemming from low self-esteem
(14:53):
and a more introverted nature.
I'd love you to share th- those twodifferences because I'm sure lots
of people listening are diagnosing
Yeah
their partner, their children,everybody they know, 'cause we
tend to do this, but it's useful tounderstand these two distinctions.
Yeah.
Well, the first type, the more neuroticversion of narcissism, we don't see
(15:15):
as seeking out leadership roles.
So it's less likely that people inthat category would have positions
of power and control over us.
it may be the case that you'releading a person who's like that,
and that's still difficult, and it'sprobably a higher drama situation
that you have to work through.
(15:36):
But those folks are less likely to be inleadership positions just based on their
introversion and lack of self-confidence.
It's, it's really the other version thatwe're talking about here the kind of
extroverted grandiosity, exploitativeand it often links with something called
(15:58):
the dark triad, which is narcissism,sociopathy and Machiavellianism.
And you can see how thoseall link together, right?
If you're grandiose and you're actuallybelieving that you can accomplish
ridiculously enormous things, you'realmost lying to yourself, but,
you're much more prone to crossethical boundaries and I can talk
(16:22):
more about that in research terms.
But you're also someone whoseeks power and, exploits others.
So the three often go together,and this is a recipe for who's
going to go for those big jobs.
And so, one thing that we thinkabout is, well, who are the
decision makers for the CEO role?
(16:46):
That's boards of directorsprimarily in public firms.
And the board, has to really thinkabout how to distinguish between this
visionary leader and a narcissisticleader, because if you think about those
in terms of Venn diagrams, they overlap.
so the trick is reallyto distinguish the two.
(17:08):
And in my view, one of the mostsignificant ways to distinguish
between a visionary leader and anarcissist is to ask the question:
Who have you brought along with you?
Who have you developed?
And what you would see is thatthe visionary leader would bring
a whole team along with them.
(17:29):
They would probably have some folkswho stayed with them for a long time,
and may be a little bit blasphemousbecause I know you just had the two
episodes on Steve Jobs, but by the endof Steve Jobs' career, he had a stable
team of 13 senior leaders on his teamwho had been with him for 13 years.
(17:53):
There was a kind of stability andconsistency there that really worked well,
and I think it showed that to whateverextent Steve Jobs was a narcissist earlier
in his career, he at least figured outhow to behaviorally modify his behavior
to bring success to Apple and growth.
(18:15):
So this is very important to ask thequestion, whether you're interviewing
a CEO or a potential manager, you wannaknow, who did you bring along with you?
Where are they now?
Are you still in touch?
Are you someone who mentors others?
Let me see the evidence.
And with a narcissist, you would probablysee fewer, if any real allies for the
(18:40):
long run and, much more variation in therelationships that they've had across time
I'm glad you said that because actuallywhat you said about Jobs is actually
the real story in that book, which ishis kind of hero to zero, back to hero
again, and that middle period wherehe kinda had that belly of the whale
(19:00):
moment, and he lost everyone, andactually went, "I gotta change my ways."
That's the lovely story that's in there.
And not blasphemous at all, I founda quote, by the way, by Trump and
I, my notes say, "Grandiose evenin his humility." Donald Trump once
stated on 60 Minutes in 20 17 that,"I'm much more humble than you
(19:20):
would ever understand, you cretin."
Right.
I'm throwing that in there, you moron.
But th- this, one of the things thatyou talk about, which was, I was
mapping this to the Jobs story thatI just read, and how when a grandiose
narcissist gets successful, they're,like, unbearable because they've had a
(19:41):
success, and then their chips, they thinkthey c- they become more risk-tolerant.
They go crazy with the risk.
People trust them, and it'skinda like in your head.
I know I've done this myself whereI worked for one, and he was a, a
millionaire, so you're kinda going,"Oh, well, maybe he's right and I'm
wrong. Maybe I need to bulk up alittle bit here." And you start to
question your own reality, but thisis one of the gifts that they have.
(20:03):
the gift of self-promotion andthe denial of failure, right?
And so they would even… evidence that,we might use to introspect and learn would
not be the evidence that they would use.
They would look at a situationthat maybe had a mixed outcome
(20:23):
and chalk it up as a 100% success.
You know, we see many examples of thatin politics and in executive life.
What we also find, though, is adifferent risk profile for narcissists.
They are much more risk-seekingbecause of their overconfidence.
(20:43):
They simply believe that they're right.
One of the ways that we tested this inan academic paper was that we looked at
how litigious narcissistic CEOs were, andwhat we found was that more narcissistic
leaders were much more likely to beembroiled in significantly more lawsuits.
(21:06):
were no more likely towin those lawsuits, right?
But they were much more willingto engage in them, and often as
plaintiffs, meaning that they thoughtthey had a case to bring when in
fact there, there was nothing there.
And so that kind of righteousness canbe very detrimental for organizations
(21:27):
because CEOs can lead organizationsinto situations that is, that are
gonna make them, worse off as aresult of the CEO's overconfidence.
I think we all enjoy seeing a narcissistget their comeuppance, but one of the
things that I, I, like, I, I believe theuniverse doesn't let you away with it and
keeps receipts, but when you read aboutit, you're like, they don't feel guilt.
(21:53):
So actually they're, they're goingaround thinking they're the ones hard
done by most of the time, to your pointabout bringing lawsuits against people.
So they have just this totally distortedreality, and therefore they use a lot of
people, like, who work for them as justlike they're a pen or as some type of
tool, and they have no empathy for you.
And I, I think it's important, Jennifer,to call that out because, again, I
(22:16):
know a lot of people who have workedfor narcissists, and they've ended
up getting, like, therapy and stufflike that because they feel broken.
And I think this is the antidote,is understanding that these people
exist in the world, just likepsychopaths, just like Machiavellianism.
It exists out there, andit's not you, it's them
Yeah, there's definitely a vic- victimorientation that narcissists have that
(22:39):
they believe that they've been wronged.
They have-- for as exploitative andinsensitive as they are to others, they
have incredibly thin skin themselves.
And so, that is not a reciprocal--it's not a symmetric relationship,
if you will, and it would be naturalfor a non-narcissist to be really
(23:00):
exhausted by working with a narcissist.
I have a very recent paper with one of mycolleagues at Berkeley, Juliana Schroeder,
where we found-- where it's just aboutto come out in a journal article form.
We found that in groups,narcissists thrive in working
with other narcissists, but theyabsolutely deflate non-narcissists.
(23:23):
It's a very difficult situation.
So if you're a leader and you're lookingat your team and you notice you have
a few narcissists, group them together'cause they'll work together fine.
They have similar norms, they can goat each other and make things happen.
But don't mix them in with thepeople who are, have more humility
and compassion and, are more atthe normal level of narcissism.
(23:47):
So I don't have much time with youtoday, so I really would like to
flip to the positive side, whichis how do you deal with this?
So in the article and inyour new book, you talk about
the consequence of grandiosenarcissis- cism for organizations.
But also then you talk about,well, what can you do about this?
And I'd love you to share those.
And it, it goes to kind of the basicsof like, well, you nip it in the bud.
(24:09):
First, you don't hire them inthe first place, or to your
point, you can identify them.
I'd love you to share someof those kind of ways.
So for HR leaders listening to theshow, or CEOs or entrepreneurs who
are starting their business, becauseoften they get duped into bringing in
a narcissist and they break the company
Well, l- let me say first, I think oneof our most important findings was kind
(24:34):
of enduring impact that narcissisticCEOs can have on an organization.
In one study that we did, we foundthat companies run by narcissists
were significantly more likelyto, , be lower on ethics in their
culture and lower on collaboration.
(24:54):
In other words, narcissistscause organizations to
de-emphasize being ethical, right?
To cross those ethical boundaries.
And it's not just the narcissist doingthat, it's the narcissist encouraging
the entire organization to do that.
And second, less collaborative, meaningthat people to have allegiance to
(25:15):
them, but not to each other, becausethat's a source , of power if people
are connected to each other andnot with the narcissistic leader.
This is very problematic because if youthink about ethics and collaboration,
these are two sort of non-negotiablesfor organizational survival, right?
(25:36):
Being ethical, like following thelaw, is a base for organizational
sur- survival and success.
And collaboration is also a keyreason why you organize in the first
place, is because people can do thingstogether that they can't do alone.
So narcissists can threaten thevery essence of organizational
(25:59):
survival, and that's why it'sreally important to identify them.
only do they affect the culture thisway, but their impact is sticky.
What we found is that companies led bynarcissists not only experience those
cultures while the in the role, but evenafter the there was a kind of residual
(26:22):
cultural impact of their presence.
So we have to think both abouthow to nip it in the bud, right?
Which is being vigilant on searchcommittees for leadership positions.
You should expect thatnarcissists are gonna apply.
If it's an important position, narcissistsare gonna seek out that position.
(26:44):
And then you should really tryto be thoughtful about how much
of the vision that the narcissistis painting is actually real.
What's the evidence?
Can you show me that you'veactually done some of these things?
Can you tell me thesteps that you've taken?
And of course, that very, veryimportant question, which is: Who
(27:05):
did you bring along with you, and whodid you promote as a result of it?
Are some of your people running othercompanies now because they learned so much
from you and have become so successful?
So these are the kinds of discussionsthat search committees need to
have, and really be cognizant ofdifferentiating between that visionary
piece and the narcissistic piece.
(27:26):
Then Once a few narcissists havegotten through, the question
is how, to deal with that.
If you recognize that your leader isa narcissist, you may wanna think hard
about whether that's the right place foryou, the right time for you to be there,
and whether there are other options.
But if you don't have the flexibility tomove quickly, then you wanna find ways
(27:51):
to shield yourself from the exploitation.
One, straightforward thing thatyou can do is you can try to
gain the narcissist's trust.
If you can gain the narcissist'strust, you can kind of manage upward
and do things that will cause thenarcissist to be less observant of what
(28:12):
you're doing and less micromanaging.
This is true aboutleaders in general, right?
If you can manage your leader andfulfill the things that is making your
leader worried they can back off andnot micromanage, you're better off.
That is absolutely true for a narcissist.
Figure out what it is they're concernedabout, make sure they know you're the
(28:32):
go-to person to solve that issue, andthey don't need to worry about it anymore.
I would also if, as I said, if you'rea manager of narcissists, I would be
very cautious about how you engagethem in collaborative work, because
you'll-- you should expect that they'regonna be difficult for others to work
(28:53):
with, and they're gonna take morecredit for whatever success emerges,
and they're gonna be more likelyto blame others for any problems.
And so as a leader of narcissists, youwant to account for that different version
of attribution that narcissists arelikely to bring forward and make sure that
you're giving your other people credit.
(29:15):
so those are just a few things.
I h- honestly, if you really seea full-blown narcissist who has
these, sociopathic and Machiavelliantendencies, would look for an exit.
It's a very, difficultsituation to manage.
It's still only 16%, so there's a wholeworld out there of non-narcissistic,
(29:38):
fantastic leaders who have visionand have an appropriate amount of
confidence who can, do great thingsand bring you along with them.
Beautiful.
I think it's just suchan important article.
I think it's gonna be interestingto read your book as well
when we get onto that book.
I just wanted to shareone little quote from it.
So this was Neville Chamberlain whomet Hitler, and after meeting Hitler,
(30:01):
he said, "This is a man who could berelied on when he had given his word."
So they are immensely great atinterview processes, as you share.
But what, the last thing Iwanted to share was w- was, it
was so important what you said.
They are very good when timesare uncertain, and there's
a reason I'm sharing that.
We've seen the effect of that politically,geopolitically lately when things are
(30:25):
uncertain, and they want to create thatuncertainty and make it last and make
themselves look like they're the leader.
And what happens then is you havemore of the out crowd become more
and more of the out crowd, andwe have this huge polarization.
I think that maybe as a lastpoint, that that is something
we all need to be aware of
Yeah, that's an excellent point.
(30:45):
I mean, de Tocqueville said that,particularly in times of a change in
chaos, we look to a leader who showsgreat certainty and confidence because we
want to create certainty for ourselves.
One of the biggest psychologicalchallenges that humans have
is to create certainty andpredictability out of chaos, right?
(31:08):
That's job one for humanbeings in the world.
We like when thingsare predictable, right?
We like to know that, thebehaviors that we engage in are
gonna be accepted in the world.
We like to be able to anticipate whatpeople are likely to do so that we can
either protect ourselves or get engaged.
to the extent that certainty doesn'texist, can step in and offer a bold
(31:33):
vision with great confidence that soundsvery appealing, and that certainty is
almost irresistible for us to follow.
So I think you raise a very timely concernthat we're facing and the polarization
that we're seeing, could be in some senseattributed to the narcissists all over the
(31:56):
world who are trying to get people to showallegiance to them rather than to find
broad solutions for the world as a whole.
Beautiful message to end on as well.
Jennifer, for people whowanna find out more about your
book, where's the best place?
And maybe you'll give us a topline of why you wrote that book
Again, we wrote that book, I think, tobust myths about organizational culture.
(32:21):
You know, many leaders think that cultureis fuzzy and not real, and it doesn't
have impact, and it can't be managed.
It's something thathappens to organizations.
And it turns out that there's kindof deep science behind organizational
culture, how you can deliberatelyleverage it for strategic success.
(32:43):
And so that's really what the book isall about, is bringing the research
literature for the, from the last 20years to managers so that they can
actually use it to develop a culture thatis aligned with their strategy, that's
strong, and that's adaptive over time.
The book is called "Making Culture Great"by Jennifer Chatman and Glenn Carroll.
(33:05):
It's at Columbia Business Press,but you can come to my website,
which is just Jennifer Chatman atBerkeley and you can find it there
And I will share the links to thatand the links to the local Amazons
as well for people to find it.
It was an absolute pleasure.
Author of Transformational Leaderor Narcissist: How Grandiose
(33:27):
Narcissists Can Create and DestroyOrganizations and Institutions, and
Making Organizational Cultures Great.
Jennifer Chatman, thank you for joining us
Thank you so much
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