38. Working with an architect (Part 1) with Sarah McNulty of McNulty Smyth

In this episode, architect Sarah McNulty shares her journey in architecture, emphasizing the importance of empathy in understanding client needs. She discusses her experiences in building her own home, the diverse projects she undertakes, and the significance of a well-defined brief. 

 

The conversation highlights the challenges of budget constraints, the importance of proportions in design, and the collaborative nature of architecture.

 

The conversation also highlights the significance of solar gain in design, emphasizing the balance between natural light and comfort in living spaces.

 

Sarah also reflects on a case study of a 1930s renovation, illustrating how client needs evolve and how architects can adapt to create functional and beautiful spaces.

 

In this conversation, the speakers delve into the intricate process of architectural design, from initial sketches to the complexities of planning regulations and tendering. 

 

Sarah and Tanya discuss the importance of detailed drawings and bills of quantities in ensuring accurate pricing and project management. 

 

Takeaways

• Empathy is crucial for architects to understand client needs.
• A well-defined brief leads to better architectural outcomes.
• Budget constraints often require compromises in design.
• Proportions in design significantly affect the feel of a space.
• Good design should reflect the client's personality and lifestyle.
• Collaboration between architects and interior designers enhances the final result.
• Understanding the emotional response to a space is essential.
• Architects should consider both interiors and exteriors from the start.
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Episode Transcript

(00:23):
Welcome back to another episode of the interiors podcast.
Today I have an architect with us.
It's been a few episodes since we've had an architect.
So welcome Sarah McNulty of McNulty Smith.
It's a pleasure to have you here.
Hi Tanya, it's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you for having me on.
Sarah and I have followed each other on Instagram for a while.
And if you follow her, she's been sharing beautiful behind the scenes of her own projects,but also her house that she is building with her partner, who is also her partner in her

(00:51):
business.
she does beautiful, really detailed work.
And we've wanted to share the power of good architecture and go behind the scenes as towhat does it really mean?
what should an architect bring to the table?
before we jump in, Sarah, on all of that, tell us a little bit about your background
I'm from the north of Ireland, just across the border and I always wanted to go to Dublinto college I went way back a long time ago now to UCD and one of two northern girls in the

(01:22):
class studying architecture.
we were a rare breed.
I ended up staying in Dublin.
loved Dublin.
I stayed there for, gosh, I think it was 22 years.
So I'd been there for longer than I actually lived in the North.
then, worked in a practice there for most of the time I was in Dublin, actually.
I was lucky that I went to practice early that specialized a lot in high end residential.

(01:43):
I really, really find, I suppose, my passion there.
I also worked quite a lot on high end.
residential, multi-residential, apartment schemes.
I did enjoy that too, but what grabbed my heart was the one off house.
It just was for me.
You find your place, and architecture is so many different places and that's what's agreat thing about it as a professional.
I was there for 15 years and then it came to that point with kids, were we gonna stay inDublin?

(02:07):
I'm a country girl.
And so we made the move.
up north and we're now building our own house but that wasn't a straightforward journeylike all journeys we did buy a derelict mill house was beautiful and thought that was our
forever home that didn't work out for lots of different reasons that you know bigrecession being part of that but we're now on the path to building our forever home and

(02:28):
that's really exciting it gives me a real empathy as an architect I like to think I'mquite empathetic and I think you have to be to be a good architect
particularly in the one-off residential, I think now building our own house gives a wholeother level of empathy.
you really get to grips with all of those problems that clients have.
Hopefully it'll make me a better architect for it.

(02:48):
And tell me, did you, so you moved back to the North and you started your own practicewith your husband who's an engineer.
That's right.
initially it wasn't really part of the grand scheme.
wasn't, I want to have my own practice.
I was looking around what was the right fit.
it was probably at the end of the recession, really.
And I realized that I wanted to express what I do as an architect more.
You know, what is it that I believe an architect and I did want to focus on one ofhousing,

(03:13):
So we decided, let's give this a go.
And we were lucky enough that one job built off another.
it's just I think it's gosh, how many years did I nearly nearly 13?
it?
Yeah.
so you've you have worked for yourself almost as long as you worked for others now
Nearly now.
I don't really think of it that way.
It seems like a much shorter period of time because, course, you're learning as you go ina business.

(03:36):
But yeah, it is.
It's coming kind of to be equal.
And I realized the other day that actually it's nearly 30 years since I started working asa product.
Yeah, that's.
it's a long time.
i really don't feel old enough in my head i'm much younger.
I know, I think we all get frozen at a certain age in our heads and you're like, there'sno way I'm 30, you know, like I'm still 16.

(04:00):
Exactly.
And when you're practicing, you're always learning.
So you don't feel like it's, it's 30 years of me doing this.
But I think in any profession, if you continue to be curious about what's out there andthings change all the time, there's building techniques, there's.
even interiors have changed so much since I've worked as an architect.
And I think that with the one off house, interiors and architecture are so integral thatyou can't really think of one without the other.

(04:26):
And I think that even from a design point of view of a house from the start, you really dohave to think about those interiors as well from the start.
And the best, high end one offs are where the architect and the interior designer areworking together from the start, in my opinion.
And sometimes it's difficult because you've got difficult points of view, but at the endof the day for the client, gives them their best end result.

(04:47):
Absolutely.
And tell me what kind of projects do you mainly work on?
So really across the range, and that's maybe one of the reasons that we didn't start ourown practice because I'm someone who's interested in everything and I hate being put in a
box.
I think that working across all different types of projects means that they inform eachother.

(05:07):
I am a conservation architect grade three, so I work on protective structures.
renovations and refurbishments love that as a building type because everyone brings newthings.
the first thing is get it that it's functioning properly in terms of heat loss and Youwant it to be comfortable.
You want it to be somewhere that, works that way first and foremost.
And then new bills.
So new bills are primarily in the countryside.

(05:30):
But you know, we have done new builds in the city.
depends, know, it's depends project to project.
So we really work on to the client, I guess.
And we wouldn't say that we have one style.
We work on both styles because.
That was my next question.
People hate that question.
They're like, no, don't make me choose a style.
Well, I guess I've kind of sidestepped that a bit in that I, yes, I probably naturallyinclined a little bit to Scandi with warmth and tactility and materiality.

(05:58):
my natural habitat.
But I love exploring other ways of doing things with working and partnering with theclient.
it's kind of like you're the design doctor.
So you're trying to help them express themselves, which is not your
expression.
it always has to have their signature in some way.
And I think the best architects know how to do that inherently.

(06:19):
It would be easier for me to say, okay, this is exactly what I think everything should be.
But I think good design transcends style.
So and I often say to clients, they'll have, well, I like this and I like this and you'retrying to pull together different strands to express them in their own home.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I love that.
Good design transcends style.

(06:40):
Yeah.
I completely agree because otherwise I think sometimes people choose an architect or aninterior designer for a certain look.
but then often that architect or designer is looking for input from them or decisionsbecause nobody wants to do a copy and paste.
Nobody wants a copy and paste house or especially when you're paying so much money.
and I think it's good for people to understand that

(07:01):
there needs to be their input too into it.
And it's a skill that they have to finesse in order to really create something good.
I think that you touched on Tanya finding the right architect to work with you.
Yes, it is true.
You do need to find built work that an architect I would advise always find built work,not just beautiful 3D images, because they're really easy to create.

(07:22):
I would to spend all day creating beautiful 3D images because they're fabulous.
But making that reality is a skill that takes years of crafting the ability to be able to
to translate from that to reality.
So find built work that you really respond to and it doesn't have to be necessarilyaligned exactly with your style.
a lot of about a home is about atmosphere and an emotional response.

(07:45):
You kind of get that, don't you?
When you kind of look at somebody's it's a little bit woo woo, but I think emotion is ahuge part of our homes.
Absolutely.
So tell me when you start to work with somebody, something we've talked about behind thescenes is this idea of the brief.
And most people listening would say, yeah, I want three bedrooms, two bathrooms, and a biggarden.

(08:06):
And I want an open plant space.
But I know that is just the starting point for you.
So can you talk us a little bit through the importance of the brief and how you approachthis?
Yes, and this is important for someone, whether they're working with an architect orwhether they're this is a stage that doesn't get enough attention.
And we have over the years learned that the more time and attention we give this stageresults in the best final outcome.

(08:30):
So yes, of course, you start with your hard bullet points.
we just call that accommodation.
That's not really the brief.
That's the accommodation.
So yes, you have to flesh that out.
But then you're drawing from there.
You're like, OK, yes, you've said you like an open plan, kitchen, living, dining.
Let's explore that a bit more.
So we would have a number of meetings which are around brief.
Sometimes it can be just one meeting, but sometimes more often that's two meetings andthey would be online or in person both.

(08:56):
And we'll talk about what does that mean to you?
So it's to fully understand what that means to you.
So you think about that and you look at spaces and actually when I think about it, that'sgonna annoy me if it's all just, I would call it one bowling alley.
Sometimes what happens with a lot of houses when they're designed is this kitchen, living,dining space.
it just is kind of like this big bowling alley with things dropped in.

(09:19):
And.
you want some sense of zoning.
So you have to then think about how do you design to create that zoning?
And sometimes that's spatially.
So sometimes that's, you know, ceiling height changes.
But you need to communicate this, as part of the brief to make sure that your end resultends up matching.
Sometimes it's in your head, but your bullet points of kitchen, living, dining doesn'treally hit it.

(09:42):
Does that make sense?
So, yeah.
And is that one of the big bug bears you end up fleshing out a lot, the open plan living,or there are other things that people often overlook that you have to educate them on?
Well, that's a big one, but we explore that because it can mean lots of different things.
So a kitchen dining can mean one space or can mean, you know, offshoots.
We explore that through images and through so we get to I get a sense of what the clientspreferred way of living.

(10:09):
And then I try and educate a little bit around what that means and shows them show imagesfrom other projects we've worked on.
And obviously we have projects on our Instagram and on our.
website, but you've got a lot more images that you can't always share.
So you're kind of exploring that.
So that's a big one.
Other things that really are, bug bars.
One of them is, that people really like the idea of the master suite with the dressing andthe master bathroom.

(10:37):
And then they're also talking about obviously square footages.
people don't necessarily know what square footage house they want, of course, Tanya, butthey'll say, I have a budget.
So your budget always has to be discussed early.
That's a key thing.
I mean, it's a difficult thing.
building costs, of course, are a lot higher than we all want them to be right now.
often what will happen is your square footage really could do a pulling back a bit to meetreally closer to your budget.

(11:00):
even in the high end.
the truth is that there's always a budget and so there are realities.
We also do online consultations where we'll help someone with existing plans,
And you'll see plans where there's this little, I called a glory hole.
You're better having a bigger bedroom and having, built in wardrobes.

(11:22):
those are things that we'll explore.
So what does that mean?
And is that really worth?
But sometimes it doesn't come out during the brief stage as the project develops.
And let me think other, you know, maybe too many bathrooms if you're a square foot.
You know, so do you really need that many bathrooms?
Is there a way of?
putting it together a bit.
The mud room, boot room, utility, what does that mean?

(11:43):
these are becoming a thing now, and I think that that makes sense sometimes to consolidatepeople have different ways of living.
So, clients have very specific ways of wanting their house to function, but they've justsaid utility and mud room.
And really there's things that need to happen.
So it's flashing out exactly functionality into the brief.

(12:03):
so, and then also the brief should be also about atmosphere, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
What sort of feelings you want the house to have, you know?
No one's going to say a cold, I'm an honest.
So I'll try and discern through the process, part of the brief is also about sharingimages.
that would be stage two.
And images when you're sharing them on a Pinterest board, can mean lots of differentthings.

(12:25):
So you could look at the same image as me and take something completely differently fromit.
So I would have a process of going through what does this image speak to you?
What does it say?
So we try and really understand what it is that they're trying to communicate through theimage.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely.
We do the same thing with interior design.
Whenever I've had it, you sometimes get sent a board and if you look at it without theclient walking you through it, you're like, you

(12:49):
in the wrong direction and then they're like no no no i actually just like the shape ofthat sofa
exactly, Tanya, exactly.
And that's why it's really important.
I call it getting hardwired to the client's brain because through that process of, a fullyfleshed out brief, Those processes, which could be two or three meetings.
people could benefit from.
a process like that with their architecture designer to get more pens put to paper, tohave a really clear that whoever's designing their home or working on their extension or

(13:19):
renovation really understands all of that.
And I understand that people are working to different budgets and working, but I thinkthat
even if that for themselves, they went through the process so that they may be moreclearly communicated to the designer what it is they're trying to achieve.
I listened to Jenny last week and she had a really clear, she had a whole, The PowerPoint.
And we do have clients who have that when they come to us But even within that, there'snot all the information there.

(13:45):
So we still go through the process.
Absolutely.
We didn't touch on it and I think it's important for people to consider when they'redesigning a house and it was the whole idea of solar game and I think it's something that,
you know, not everyone's using an architect, but if they're aware of this, it's beneficialin terms of the comfort of their house in the long run.

(14:06):
So what is this concept of solar game
the concept of the solar gain is you're generally looking to invite South light into yourhouse.
We always hear people talking about South facing gardens, South facing houses, becauseSouth light is, it brings in beautiful light and warmth.
But we are increasingly finding that people want to have a lot of glazing and that'ssomething that's desired.

(14:31):
And I love a lot of glazing because it's a balance.
You want to have walls for art too, right?
So there is a balance.
we were always considering that when a client showed you an image of it on all glass andwe're like, OK, but think about window treatments.
Think about.
And again, this is from having worked with great interior designers in the past.
I do think about this stuff and how do you put art and stuff?
but if you've got a lot of side facing glazing, which is the optimum from some people'sperspective, some people prefer an east west.

(14:55):
It depends on I like a side facing orientation for a room.
I also think about what evening room.
the lovely West light, and sometimes I'm trying to get a room that gets all the lights.
But if you have a lot of glass, there can be a real problem with overheating.
a lot of people don't realize that until they're in their house and they move in and theythink, wonderful glass.
And then in the summertime, they're really uncomfortable.

(15:16):
And then what happens is people are introducing air conditioning, which has its place aswell.
It does have a space in certain projects and we do incorporate it often at the start ofcertain projects.
But in addition, it is worth considering
incorporating solar shading.
Okay.
So the principle is you will see it all over Europe.
They've got Brie Soleil, which are basically, you know, canopies that have fins at kind ofdifferent angles that basically stop the overheating at the high summer sun.

(15:46):
So in Ireland, in the middle of the summer, the degree of the sun is about 60 degrees.
Okay.
So
that will come into your space.
So if you've got a two meter high window, basically the way it works out, will come in ameter into your room.
Oh, cool.
It's kind of a simple ratio and a simple thing for people to think about.
Two to one.
So if you wanted to not overheat in the summertime, a canopy of one meter will mean thatthat sun won't come in at the hottest point of the day.

(16:13):
Okay.
It still will be bright.
It still is welcoming in sun.
In the wintertime, the sun still comes right in and the
wintertime, you know, your angle of your sun's about 12 degrees.
So it's still pouring in.
So it's worth considering to stop, you know, the overheating where you've got a lot ofglass.
doesn't mean you have to do it in all glass.
I would recommend it on all really expensive glass at south facing.

(16:33):
So and it can have a dual function, obviously, and you can go more than a meter, you know,but then, of course, you're blocking out more light the deeper you go.
if you remember that two to one rule, simple ratio, that if your windows are X height, ifyou've got solar shading and it doesn't have to be a complete solid canopy, can be
something like a brie soleil.
We've done it before where we've got timber, things, it's more dapper.

(16:55):
There's lots of different ways to incorporate it you want your home to be comfortable aswell as beautiful.
And tell me, what are some of the things that often change?
So you talked about the realities of the budgets and coming to the square footage.
Looking at some of your current projects, I know one project that you did, which is astriking transformation, is the 1930s renovation you did in Dublin, right?

(17:20):
For a project like that, what is an example of something you helped clients walk throughthere that evolved from the brief that really needed to be fleshed out
the clients, I suppose on that project, I had worked with the clients previously, so wehad a really good understanding of each other.
Their brief would have been to meet the needs of their family as they were kind of growingand getting older.

(17:41):
So their needs had changed from their previous project.
And really, a really fundamental one was the orientation wasn't as good as their previoushouse.
So it was about how, to still create the lightful space that was their family area, let'ssay kitchen, dining, wasn't a bowling ball.
And so we actually visited the house before they purchased it to see, we looked at acouple of houses.

(18:07):
Sometimes we'll do that where
clients are thinking about which house is right to meet their requirements.
This was one that they were less sure about because the orientation.
But I fully felt that we would find a way to make it as light-filled.
And in the end, it really is as light-filled and doesn't have the issues with theoverheating that we would have had to deal with with the other project.

(18:30):
So sometimes things can be blessed in disguise, I always say.
one of the things when we first walked the house, and it's funny because you the trend forarches now is everywhere.
And it's like I call it artists having be a beast sometimes, you But and you know, itisn't that that's wrong, but sometimes it's jumping on a trend.
And in this instance, there were arches inside the existing house, but the clientsinitially thought, well, they won't be there.

(18:57):
Whereas I saw an opportunity
it made sense to keep them and actually they did have babies in a sense but it wasn't youknow to the extent where it was awful it inspired a beautiful very large like three meter
high arch window to the dining area which captures the garden and has beautiful light andit is a really gorgeous space to be in and it's you know how photographs you'll know this

(19:21):
Tanya
You look at a photograph and it looks like a beautiful window, but you never get a senseof the scale until you're in the space, Or sometimes you'll see a photograph of the person
standing out that window and you're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
we're designed to try and maximize window sizes with size that makes sense for the budgetof the project, because depending on the budget, you you can't go above two point four

(19:42):
meters high, but people don't necessarily always know that.
Standard window height is 2.1 meters high, right?
And for most houses that a lot of designers will just work to that.
But a lot of window companies for not really that much uplift will work to 2.4.
And that extra foot is incredibly beneficial to the feel of that room, you know?
So it's something that people could maybe realize that and purchase it because I often seeplans and

(20:07):
it's really just a very small increment.
Once you go beyond 2.4, you are talking more bespoke and more expensive windows.
But, you know, I think all was designed to 2.4, why not?
Yeah, absolutely.
but...
Well, I think it makes sense because that project you already knew the clients so well,that they were moving from younger children to older children and kind of already probably

(20:29):
knew what their needs were.
And tell me for your own house, how did you approach the brief?
you knew exactly what you wanted or did certain things actually evolve once you werecosting things or drawing things?
I guess, yes, I designed a lot of houses.
it was really tricky, actually.
It much trickier than I anticipated.
It took me much longer to design my own house than any other house ever in history.

(20:51):
You always hear that from designers and architects.
It's so much harder when you're making the decision for yourself.
And I did have budget very clearly in mind.
I was also thinking about all the things I think about as an architect for a new buildinghouse in the countryside.
what's the appropriate form, where is the light, where is the views.
Those always inform any design and any good architect will have those as front and centerin terms of what they're trying to do.

(21:17):
Those are the informing bits.
You know, any architect is solving a problem.
What's the problem you're solving in the countryside?
It is that you're putting a building into a place that hadn't building before and you'reto sensitive to the location.
And you're also wanting to see what are the things that, you can't miss in terms of theview.
you're thinking about where the sun's moving and trying to retain beautiful existingfeatures.

(21:42):
So.
was a mature site.
had an old house on the site that actually was my great aunt's.
Cool.
which is the place.
it's this almost abandoned ruin, which we will do something with in the future, it'ssitting at a very particular angle and then there's mature trees, beautiful view of the
mountain, where's the south light, where's the evening light, where's the morning light.

(22:03):
So that really informed the design.
then, there were farm buildings nearby, vernacular buildings, not really old, like more,probably 50, 40 years old, but with timber and different textures and metal roofs.
So all of that came into design.
So hopefully we reflect some of that in the finished product.

(22:23):
We've spent a lot of time trying to
And once you get to site, the decisions don't stop once you've designed the house.
It's then following through with the materials, both inside and outside to really fulfillthat overall vision.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
I've really enjoyed following along and looking at the 3Ds.
feels very, I don't know, there's something Australian about it.

(22:44):
Maybe it's like the bleached wood and that kind of sense of like this sprawlingcourtyardiness.
You always see these houses and Australian design magazines and you can just imagine allthe barbecues they have.
And it's got that kind of outdoorsy lifestyle feel.
Yeah, I love Australian design.
think that they're really at the cutting edge of creating beautiful homes at the moment,to be honest, and New Zealand, both Australia and New Zealand.

(23:09):
I follow a lot of Australian and New Zealand architects and interior designers, somereally, really good ones.
I think that in Ireland, we've walked away from what a little bit.
We're a little bit scared of it because we think we've got a wet climate.
But look at New Zealand,
once you've done the research and we have done a lot of research about what way to usewood, the treatments to use and there are people with great knowledge in Ireland about it

(23:31):
as well to lean on.
we're inspired by barns of Cytus that has, you would see them all over the country,Cytania, the ones that have the timber slatted,
bit for ventilation at the top.
So we kind of interpreted that, that we have the timber at the top.
And then we wanted to do a kind of contemporary take on the lime wash stone walls.

(23:55):
So we're doing brick that we intend to lime putty.
it gives the texture button a slightly different way to how it would have traditionallybeen done.
Cool, beautiful.
And what is the timber cladding going to be?
We're still debating this one.
I absolutely adore Cedar and Cedar a lot.
But for budgetary reasons, it may be large.
But with large again, large can be lots of different things.

(24:18):
there's large and there's large.
Siberian large is the one that's going to hold up best in our climate.
And it does cost a little bit more.
But like most things, unfortunately, it's worth that investment to make sure you get thelongevity and the performance, you know.
Yeah, absolutely.
So did anything evolve during this brief stage?
Yeah, so what would have evolved was incorporating a home office.

(24:39):
we really did want to to do that.
And in the end, we had to because I wanted to keep the floor plate efficient and I wantedit to, you know, make sense in terms of the site and the block.
didn't want it to be too broken down.
I do like
breaking down forms in the countryside, but this made sense in terms of where I sitting onthe site.

(24:59):
So it just wasn't gonna fit properly.
It was always gonna compromise something else.
and that's part of a process with many projects.
the clients will say, we want, and through the process of the expiration of the sketchdesign stage, sometimes we will have that conversation.
clients should, and anyone do know how, should stay open to.
that during the design process, you find the compromises that something might be percise.

(25:25):
But way down the line, you'll not remember that, because I know it worked well now, butaccept that there will be some kind, and I do say always clients at the start of process,
there will be compromise, but the hope is that in 10 years time, you don't remember that.
You might remember it because sometimes they're sore things.
know, sometimes you do.
have to have a smaller play room than you wanted or, you sacrifice that play room becauseyou realize that a play room is only for a very finite point in time.

(25:54):
And it seems really important when you're in that stage of, of, know, your family'sjourney, but it should function that it actually then also has another purpose when you
age out of the play room stage.
Does that make sense?
So we talk a lot about those sort of things as well.
there are compromises on I'd say pretty much every project, but maybe compromise is notthe right word.

(26:14):
you're kind of prioritizing something else.
helps you.
It helps you focus the design process.
The sketch design process should help you get to focus on what your real, non-negotiablesare.
Yeah.
And do you find it's often reducing square footage as well?
yes, and what happens often is the square footage gets reduced and then pushed back upagain.

(26:35):
It's like the interiors, it's like, slash the interiors budget.
And then you get over, you know, the first fixed hurdle.
And it's like, actually, do know, we probably do need all that joinery again.
And it's like, yep, okay, all right.
I admire Jenny last week who said who really fastidiously stuck to her guns in terms ofthis.
that is actually a hard thing for people to do.

(26:56):
But, you know, Jenny and her house works really, really well.
And we have designed some houses are the smaller scale, you know, square footage wise.
But you are always compromising on something.
your bedrooms are going to be smaller.
And whilst people say.
Yeah, they're OK with that when they see it in hard fast black and white on a drop, withmodern families, kids, particularly when they get to a certain stage, they want to be in

(27:16):
their rooms.
And so you have to think not you have to.
It's going to think about how they function is a room for a desk.
It's one of my book.
Whereas when someone comes to me and also when, you know, clients see their plans, thereshould be furniture layouts that really work, you know.
Yeah.
You have to see that there's a wardrobe on the plan.

(27:37):
There's a desk there.
There's a queen size bed in the master if you really want to king size it.
These are reflecting true sizes of things that people are gonna use.
And the couch that's not a real couch size, all these things, not a proper layout, noconsideration of where's your tee.
This should be part of the design of your home from the start, I think.

(27:59):
grafted on thing at the point where you start to think about interior design, should be.
I think a good architect considers that.
From the start.
because sometimes you have to move walls and say, no, we absolutely want a sectional.
Well, a sectional doesn't fit into that room.
designers are more drilled into that, definitely Tanya, I've been lucky because I'veworked with a lot of interior designers over the years.
So I've been schooled, I guess, by that collaboration.

(28:22):
I mean, I love collaborating with other great designers.
It's very rewarding.
But I think that any architect should be investing enough time and understanding thosethings to give the client the best results.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely, yeah.
Yeah, because I think people just don't look at that until down the line and they're like,God, this room actually isn't big enough.

(28:44):
They're focusing on exterior kind of, and it's about the interiors and the exterior shouldwork together.
So they want this big corner window and this other window.
And then they realize, okay, where does the couch really go and where does the TV reallygo?
And actually that window, if it was just moved three foot that way would really, you know,they discovered too late.

(29:05):
it's trying to do everything early, but the earlier you consider, and even with that, youdo change things on site.
Just a weeks ago, we moved a bay window on site to, it didn't quite work.
And, you know, it was early stages, We were on site, the client in fairness, saw itstraight away.
And, you know, was easy to adjust that, but always be fluid, I guess, is that the rightword?

(29:28):
Mm-hmm.
think so much of the design starts to come together once things are moving on site.
Like we had to raise a windowsill because I was putting a bathtub against a window.
And I looked at it and I was just like, my God, that's going to be higher than thewindowsill.
so luckily we were able to change that.

(29:49):
Yeah, no, but we were able to amend it.
But it's all these things.
a lot of times you're not thinking of like interior elevations at that point, but youideally need to.
And like you said, it's only in 3D exploration that you see like, God, that actuallydoesn't make sense at all inside the space.
And it's the kind of thing you don't notice until studs are up.

(30:09):
Yeah, even with building 3D models,
when you get to site, you start to see exactly what you're saying, tiny of thosejunctions.
And sometimes just staying open to, you know, making small adjustments can make a bigdifference.
Like you said, the windowsill height, you know, sometimes people get the heights of thewindows wrong, they want a window seat.
And then, you know, the designer or the person who's done the house is put in a certainheight.

(30:32):
And then, you know, you really need to check it and make sure it does comfortably for
what's comfortable for you, you know?
And all of that also needs to be considered when you order your sanitary wear.
For example, I didn't know about certain layers of insulation that were going to be addedinto a bathroom and I was like, I can make my bath a little wider.
Nope.
Should have double checked that.
Well dear, and so what did you do to adjust your head to swivel there?

(30:53):
No, it was okay.
Like, it's it's tight, but there's still even space for an architrave around a door thatopens into the bathtub.
it's these sorts of things where you're like, there's plenty of room for that.
But then there's all these architectural layers that can come in that it's much easier ina new build or in a new extension,
Even in a new building, like that, you're always finding things like we have a pinch pointin our bathroom where I really wanted to have a 1400 long shower because, you know, I have

(31:23):
three boys and they just splash everywhere.
And I really didn't want to follow a shower enclosure, just a shower screen.
so trying to minimize the water getting everywhere.
And so there's a pinch point between the shower screen and the vanity.
And
I'm like, why did I not make that bathroom 200 mil longer?
Then I remember, no, I made the bedroom 150 mil longer because I felt the proportion.

(31:46):
And proportions are a really important thing.
When you're designing a house, new build, renovation, know, sometimes people are like, Ireally want this, this and this.
And they kind of...
squeeze these rooms in and then they're really badly proportioned and they're not nicespaces to be in.
So to me, know, the proportion of a room, the human form has a natural affinity.
There is a golden section that was done by Michelangelo, think, or Corbusier, an architectused to refer to a lot in design.

(32:12):
I kind of have it almost ingrained into my brain at this point.
And there is a natural width to length and height that is feels right to the human being.
OK, and you know, there's absolutely no point in doing rooms that don't feel right.
I can see them straight away when I see a plan.
I'll know straight away because, you know, I've been doing it for a long time, but peopledon't realize and then they know something doesn't feel right.

(32:35):
But that's what it is, you know.
So equally, you know, on plan, something can look right.
But then there's a volume of the space.
And if that's wrong or misjudged, you know, we've all been in spaces where, you know,probably on plan it looked
right.
But they didn't, I won't necessarily understand that really it's overscaled.
And I know in America they love these big vaulted, know, overscaled spaces, but theygenerally get the judgment right in terms of the portions.

(33:03):
But if they're wrong, just really feels, something feels wrong, right?
Yeah.
In American homes, almost everything is bigger.
So it kind of makes sense.
There's usually space on either side of the houses.
There's much less terraced homes.
And when you look out your window, there's not immediately another house.
there's, a little bit more room for it to feel appropriate rather than like you walk inand you're like in a gorge and you're like, my God, why is there this overly dramatic

(33:31):
stairwell?
But if it's done right, it can be really, really clever.
You know, this moment of release that can be, but it's about an architect who has thejudgment to make that move that is just right.
You know, there's so many great architects out there in Ireland doing really interestingthings and introducing those, I call them moments of release.
And it doesn't have to be big to make an impact, but it does have to be well judged interms of just how those proportions work, you know?

(33:56):
Yeah.
It's really hard to communicate that.
And like there's no
this is the right formula.
It's years of experience and we're trained for a long time.
much like you go to a doctor and it's a diagnosis process, that's why it's called a designprocess because it is a process of getting to what the right fit is.
We spent a lot of time on the brief, but if you don't get that right, you are going toregret a lot further down the line and try to shoehorn in decisions that you should have

(34:24):
done earlier.
But usually after you finalize the brief, that's when you start drawing.
So tell me a little bit, run me through what it takes then to get on site.
so the design process is normally broken into sketch design, which is where you'reexploring options on paper.
And every architect will have a different way of doing I was trained this way in thepractice I worked with before I set up myself.

(34:48):
I find it a really good way of exploring on paper, actually enhanced sketch form.
I really.
probably enjoy it a lot as well.
But I find that once you go to AutoCAD, things become almost like they're too firm, toosolid to almost change as much.
It's much more fluid, molding putty more when you're kind of sketching on paper.
So we would explore the option.

(35:10):
Normally there are a couple of options because you've got you never hit the brief exactlyin any design.
That's just, in terms of talking about the compromises.
So.
you would present the options and then with the client that would then evolve to an agreedsketch design.
And there's a bit of exploration through that process.
And then you would get to the point where you do your AutoCAD drawings.

(35:32):
that's the and of course you have to consider budget with all of this.
So sometimes it's a good idea even when you've gotten to the agreed sketch design whenit's still more to get a cost plan with a goodness of air.
So you're not going to planning.
And then, after that, when things are much more solidified and kind of tied down,discovering it's always, unfortunately at the moment with building prices above where

(35:55):
anyone wants their budget to be, but at least you know your direction of travel if you dothat at that point.
And I always advise it,
Would you say you can get an estimate from a sketch design?
Yeah, we do.
Okay, and that's because you kind of fill in the gaps and you would explain to the QS thekind of level of finish and insulation.
it's a full set of plans, sections.

(36:16):
OK, OK.
we also have at that stage a model, you know, will be a sketch up model normally, Tanya orRevit.
We use a lot of Revit now.
So
with Kat, she's brilliant.
She's so she's a new new tradition and she's fantastic.
I'm to give her a shout out.
And so there is enough information.
Also, we're working generally with QSs that we have a relationship with and we're able tobullet point this is the level.

(36:41):
So if it's an extension or renovation, we'll make clear that it's fully externallyinsulated where the existing part of the building is what this.
general spec is for wheels.
So maybe say, for example, if we need to reduce levels, take out slab, on the floorheating, know, generally for an extension and renovation, you're trying to really upgrade
that fabric because you're bringing it up to air rated generally.

(37:05):
So yes, we would inform them enough stuff to get, it's not going to be exactly what atender sum was gonna be, but it's going to be the direction of travel.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely, and I think it's an essential thing that not enough people are educated aboutand it was a big mistake we made personally.
And then when I worked at an architecture practice and learned so much more about the roleof a QS, I couldn't believe it wasn't something that wasn't like ingrained in everyone

(37:33):
that you have to do this before planning because what is the point in falling in love withsomething and getting planning permission for something you can't afford to build and then
you have to
We had to go back to zero.
had to start from zero, a new design team, a new brief, and it's exhausting,heartbreaking, expensive, because you're still not living in the...
Even through that process, the budget that came out was still higher than you wanted it tobe.

(37:55):
That's just where we are in the current cost environment, unfortunately.
And I wish I make it other than that.
But these are the hard truths.
And I think facing those early is better than not facing them until it's reallyheartbreaking and you have to completely throw everything out and pare it right back.
So it gives you an opportunity to

(38:16):
because you might have two options on the boards at that point.
even the client's mind, maybe we were able to have like one of our products, that extrabedroom or what will that mean?
What sort of an uplift and of course, it's not precise, but it gives them an order ofcosts.
So then after you get it costed from the sketch design stage, you decide whether it needstweaks or you go ahead with full drawings for planning.

(38:41):
Yes, and then the planning process is, we would work both north and south.
So in the south of Ireland, it's relatively straightforward compared to in the north ofIreland.
Interesting.
Northern Ireland has its own planning, regulations and guidelines.
It's that by legislation in the South, the county councils must make a decision withineight weeks.

(39:03):
They either make a decision or ask you for requests for further information.
in the North of Ireland, there is a guideline as opposed to actual legal.
God.
So we recently had an application, it's a fairly straightforward planning applications orplacement dwelling.
And, I know it's not contentious.
I know that we've had all of the requirements in terms of, planning and it's a year over ayear now.

(39:28):
It was February in a year.
Yeah.
And it's the system is unfortunately something that needs a bit of attention from aplanning point of view.
But this is one of the downsides, of the way it's set up, And they don't have theresources.
I don't hold the planners personally responsible.
I think it's just a resourcing issue.
Wow, that's very frustrating.

(39:48):
Would you work pretty equally between North
No, interestingly, mainly South, I guess, because I worked and lived South of the borderfor so long and maybe more people know me.
But we only take on projects where
for full service where it's an hour and hour and a bit away from, we do do advisory andprojects beyond that, but it doesn't make practical sense.

(40:11):
And okay, if you're doing planning in the South, so the eight weeks, then usually how longdoes it take to prepare the tender set, the construction level?
drawings.
Again, this is something people don't really understand how long this takes.
I know that a lot of people go to pricing with planning drawings and you know that that'sOK.

(40:32):
I understand why, but really it's not a proper price.
there will be lot of certain and unknowns in there.
So a proper tender and billing control, because you do have to submit building controlafter you do your planning.
And building control drawings are meant to be such that they demonstrate compliance withthe building regulations.

(40:53):
so they should show everything.
And that's uploaded on the BCMS system, the Building Control Management System.
What I find is that, you know, I do look at other submissions.
Sometimes those are very, I would consider basic.
What can happen is if your drawings are not detailed enough, then when you get to site, A,you end up with something you didn't really want because the detail's not really there.

(41:16):
Or B, it costs more because you're trying to purchase the detail you wanted that youthought was on the drawings.
proper tender drawings and a proper tender package actually takes a considerable amount oftime because to have a fully detailed building that really responds to like a proper, well
detailed, probably all the hires you see on our, you know, social media and our website,you know, they've had a full set of tender drawings.

(41:40):
So every detail is considered tricky junctions.
Sometimes you'll have interior elevations, depending if you're working with interiordesigner, there will be interior elevations with, you know, your fireplace detail, your
joinery, bespoke doors, staircases, sometimes fitted furniture will be detailed at thatstage.
Often you'll put a piece of film in.
It depends, you know?

(42:01):
Yeah.
So, but you're also coordinating with the professionals, the other professionals involved.
So you've got the engineer and they're, you know, coordinating with them.
So you have to wait for them to detail.
We're very lucky as a practice in that my husband's an engineer.
So we kind of shortcut that in one sense and that we will always have considered theengineering at a very early stage.

(42:22):
Whereas in most projects, you're really only properly interacting with the engineer afterplanning.
So sometimes the engineer will say they want X and that really negatively impacts on whatyou're trying to do.
on budget too, stealing.
It was so expensive.
Or you thought you could do something like, do we excavate here?
and turns out, yeah, you can, but it's going to cost you so much, you're not going to beable to.

(42:45):
Exactly, exactly.
And so that's a process in itself dealing with the engineer.
And I mean, there's so many good engineers out there who will who really understandbecause one off residential is it's I always say it's its own animal.
It's different to an office building, an apartment building, you know, commercial.

(43:05):
It's like a completely different area.
And there are engineers who
do a lot of work in that space here.
And then there's a QS.
So once you get all of your package together, then the QS starts looking at the drawingsand then they start putting together the bill of quantities, which is basically a document
that outlines everything that is, it's like a big shopping list to buy all the things foryour house.

(43:29):
Including the insulation, including the air tightness membranes.
including all of the things that go into making your house.
And that's where you get that certainty around price.
And I understand that not every project has all those professionals involved, but I dobelieve that if you get a try and push for everyone has to do building control drawings.

(43:50):
Don't think that it's I understand everything's about costs.
If you're planning drawings, try and get enough detail for building control.
That's not just basically your planning drawings blown up.
know, have some consideration, more consideration, ask for more consideration thanmaterials and the details and what's the stairs going to be like, maybe would help you a
bit more.
But the bill basically, that process takes between six and eight weeks and sometimes canpush out to 12 weeks.

(44:15):
That's the hard fast truth of it.
including the tender drawings.
Yeah.
No, and I think that's very realistic.
And like you said, it's the coordination between all the different people.
So you do one round of drawings, then you send it to somebody else.
They're away for a week.
Then they get to it.
Then they have a question for somebody else.
And then that person has to review it and analyze it.

(44:36):
And then a change has to be made.
So you have to run it by the client.
All of that is part of the process, absolutely.
In the north of Ireland, we have a thing called SAPs, which are standard assessmentprocedure, which is basically, it's the same as part L in the south really, which is to do
with the fabric of the house in terms of the insulation and the heat performance and theenergy loss.

(44:59):
But it's generally separate.
We have the same here, it's called BER.
So the BER assessment takes part.
but that's another consultant who ties into that process.
we generally know where we're at with our specifications because we've been doing it andwe know on different house types, renovations, if we're doing this specification will
bring us to standard.
And then of course, you're also asking questions of other types of consultants sometimeslike heating, know, for a source heat.

(45:26):
Fire safety, right?
For the very high end projects, you will have M &E consultants, mechanical and electrical,and there's a lot of complexity there.
You know, there can be lighting systems.
There is there.
It's a whole other world, you know.
Yeah.
I do think people should understand even if you're doing a smaller scale, just anextension and maybe you're only hiring an architect for planning, the VAR assessment, for

(45:49):
example, that's not very expensive at all.
And then that can inform what you need in terms of the insulating properties of eachwindow and how much heat output each radiator should have.
So you can kind of take shortcuts in some ways if you can't afford every singleprofessional.
And a QS can do a bill of quantities without staying on for the whole job, which I thinkis hugely valuable.

(46:16):
It doesn't have to necessarily be a full bill of quantities that really do shopping.
This can be pricing documents, which breaks down all the elements into say, a substructurewalls, roof.
And you have something that is a way to kind of control the project as you go along.
So, know, kind of what it just gives you something that you're rather than you'recompletely don't really know what everything is.

(46:43):
the best way it was explained to me when I first discovered what a bill of quantity wasis, if you don't say that we need X amount of tons of this material or this amount of
square meters of that material, each builder that you go to tender to is going tocalculate it in their own way.
And you don't necessarily know that.
So the builder that's the cheapest at the end of the day may not actually be the onethat's cheapest.

(47:06):
Maybe they didn't allow for an extra 10%.
Maybe they actually use less of it.
than when they come to you and say, we only price for this.
And it's so undefined that you have no comeback there.
It's very, very, and that leads to a very stressful process, lots of arguments.
Whereas when it's clearly defined and even a short pricing document by a QS can have allof that detail allows you to have more certainty around what you're getting priced and

(47:34):
that each builder is pricing like with like.
Exactly.
Like with that, that's what it is.
It's apples to apples.
So you can fairly say this is actually the best quote.
So I think that's why it's so valuable for people to understand these things and tounderstand how long this takes behind the scenes.
So then when you have your tender set documents ready, you go to tender.

(47:55):
Do you have certain builders that you have relationships with or does it really vary?
Well, because we work in lots of different places, we're not going to have relationshipswith builders everywhere that we've worked.
We will work with the clients and generally will have found the QS that often is in thatarea who will have relationships with builders because it's like everything, you know,

(48:16):
there are builders who are, I suppose, experts in their field, when it comes to one-offhouses,
Builders approach things differently, There are builders who really just want to do thebuilders finish.
They're happy to do that depending on the area, so particularly in the countryside.
And then there are builders who really like to deliver a finished product, And you want tohave builders who are of the same quality on the list because it's not fair to really have

(48:41):
a list of builders where...
One has a full sort of team and support and office kind of, you know, making sure that aproject's delivered on time and as close to budget, but you know, budgets, we can discuss
that very briefly sometimes and often do go over, but it's not that that's the intentionof the outset.
It's that building's a complex process and there's lots of things and variables that comeup on sites.

(49:03):
And that's why you have contingency.
So you want to have builders who are all the same quality analysts, because it's not it'sreally not fair.
It does cost builders money to price a job.
I think sometimes people certainly think about that.
You know, it's not similarly to when you speak to architects and you're trying.
And I always advise people to speak to a number of architects and make because it's a bigit's a long process and you have to.

(49:26):
You chemistry is an important thing to write and.
you're gonna be talking every day for a year or two.
Yeah.
So but then I would always say, be aware that, you wouldn't say to six doctors, I want tospend an hour of your time before I decide if you're going to diagnose my sore finger.
You know, and people often go to architects and say, well, I want to you to spend all thisfree time.

(49:50):
And then maybe, you know, so we have trained for a long time where
We really want to serve the clients.
To me, that's the front and center always is to give the client a good service.
But also, I can't spend a lot of time for free.
And that's true of any trade, even just getting a quote off someone, you know?

(50:14):
And that's what I'm saying, our builders, they're arguing that it does take them time andmoney to price things, you know.
So when you're putting a list together, is only reasonable to have people that are all ofa similar level to be on that list.
OK.
Yeah, and to see that you can also ask to go see projects they've done.
Look for recommendations from people who have used them.

(50:34):
I think it's a good idea.
Always look for recommendations.
And equally with using an architect, look for testimonials, look for people who haveworked with them in the past.
Even ask to talk to, people don't often ask it, but if they want to speak to a clientwho's worked with us before, absolutely.
it was really valuable to go and see a house that and meet people and and I think it's agreat idea.
Even for builders, know, see what they've done in the past, So, yes, we would haverelationships depending on where the area is, but often, you don't and you get a sense of

(51:02):
the right fit for the project.
that makes sense.
It's hard to get builders on this.
It's very, very busy.
And how long does the tender stage usually take in your experience until coming to agree acontract?
there's a set amount of time given for pricing and it's generally four weeks or six weeks.
Yeah.
And sometimes people can come in a bit late and, you know, we handle that.

(51:23):
the QS kind of deals with that as well.
And then there's the assessment of the pricing because people, always want to know, themoment that the tenders come in, what are all the price.
But.
It isn't a good idea and no architect or QS really will share that until they've beenassessed properly because what happens is sometimes there's mistakes within the pricing or

(51:43):
there's a bit of back and forth in that as well.
So when the QS is satisfied that they've been properly assessed and the prices are, theycan say that this is missing from this one.
So they give you a tender analysis and then a meeting will happen with the clients and thearchitects to try and.
look at this and see what the right fit is.
And often, the right fit isn't necessarily the lowest tender, If it's hugely lower,there's often a problem, if it's a proper tender package, everything should be within

(52:10):
touching distance of each other.
And then often still the figures are beyond where the client's comfortable.
So
There's a process which is called,
Value engineering, which is where you're looking to see if there's any obvious, and thisis often have been considered before, it might be when the crunch comes to the crunch, the
client might say, OK, I'm willing to compromise this.

(52:31):
can take it.
We can break those windows up into three different pieces.
We can lose the polished concrete, things like that.
want to re-slate the back of the roof.
It's actually functioning okay.
Okay.
would like it to be, it is fibrous cement at the moment.
I'd like it to be changed to real slate, but it's not leaking.
It's functioning.
It's not looking as beautiful as I like, but I'll have what I want in the front.

(52:55):
I'm willing to sacrifice that.
So things like that, can happen.
Yeah, that's when like it all gets very real and you're just like, okay, everything Iwanted isn't achievable, like what can be, what is the most important thing to do now?
What can be done in one year, five years, 10 years?
Exactly.
So often in projects, you know, particularly the landscaping can get stripped out.

(53:15):
There is a figure for landscaping and you're just leaving hardcore.
Maybe this is maybe something that's really, really hard, but it's somewhere that, youknow, when you're value engineering and, know, you're not maybe doing the beautiful piers
that you like to do or, know, the gets are not now the gets are.

(53:36):
For us, we lost the landscaping and the electric gates.
it's an emotional roller coaster too, because you wrap your head around, okay, what'sreally important, what isn't, okay, actually we could lose that joinery and get the grass.
You have to pivot.
So even design wise, I talked to you about the concept of our hearts, which is the timber,the ventilated slots that will be in old, not old barns on vernacular barns from the last

(53:57):
50, 60 years.
the timber cladding is expensive.
I've adjusted and pivoted the design to still have that data line going around, but justexpress in a different way and in a more cost effective material.
Those are the kinds of hard, pivots that you often do in a project, but still maintainingthe design intent, just doing it in a different way.

(54:18):
Absolutely.
And I think what's crazy is we haven't even gotten to the point where a client where youeven agree on a builder and it's what at least six months at this point, right?
no, it's sometimes more Tanya, yeah.
Because I think clients think, okay, I'm appointing you today, when will we be on site?

(54:38):
And from my experience, it tends to be kind of a year from the moment that you talk to anarchitect to the point you get on site.
And that's doing well, actually.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's, that's all we have time for today.
But I feel like we need a second interview
we've covered so much today.
And I think what it highlights, because we haven't even gotten to the point of when you'reon site, is that a lot of the hardest work really happens before.

(55:03):
it's really important for people to understand all the things that your architect is goingto do behind the scenes and all the other people who are involved and why it takes so
long.
And what are the things that you can start thinking about and prepare yourself for to make
all of that process go really well.
And if people can't have an architect do it all with them, where can they definitely hirean architect?

(55:25):
Where can they try to do it by themselves?
Or can they scale back the extent of some of the professionals involved like we discussedthe QI?
A lot of architects, Tanya, are happy to do a consultation.
So say they've got drawings and, you know, to help incrementally improve it, you know, OK,it's not going to be quite the same, but it will maybe identify issues you don't see.
So a lot of architects offer one or two or consultations where they look at your drawingsand kind of consider that.

(55:49):
So that's a way of maybe, you know, improving and making sure that things are consideredby professional eye.
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Sarah, for walking us through that.
think it's very inspiring when people can really have some of the tools to sit back andreally delve deeply into their briefs beyond that accommodation.
Like you said, that's not a brief.

(56:10):
That's just the accommodation.
And maybe even ask themselves hard questions of like, do some of these requirements needto be looked at, you know, before you get that scary QS estimate?
I know we've talked a lot about Tanya, the really kind of tricky things.
a project, it's a wonderful thing.
It's a wonderful thing to be able to do.

(56:30):
And it should be, it is, there's a lot of, difficult things you address, but it should bea wonderful process.
It's really exciting.
It's like, you know, amazing opportunity if you're able to do it.
So try and enjoy it as much as you can.
Yeah, and it sounds like so much time and it's good for people to know how long it takesso that they can factor that into wherever they're living, whether it's moving in with

(56:50):
family or continuing to rent or living on a mobile home on the site.
But often the time really gives you a lot of space to do the research and get the quotesand iterate your design.
It's not always a bad thing to have some.
thank you, Sarah, for a very good walkthrough behind the scenes of what it
I hope it was useful for people.

(57:11):
know it's a lot of information, but it is probably more complex than sometimes peopleunderstand.
Absolutely.
We will follow along on your Instagram.
So what is your Instagram handle people want to follow?
at Mechanology, Smith, Associate, Smith with a Y.
Okay, amazing.
I look forward to seeing your house progress.
we might have to have you come back on to walk through the what does it mean when you'reon site because that's a whole other.

(57:36):
That's one of my favorite bits.
I really, really love being on site.
It's something I never ever tire of.
Amazing.
Thank you, Sarah.
Thank you.
Bye bye.