41. Top 3 renovation mistakes ft. the Rip It Up podcast

In this collaborative episode, Tanya Neufeld Flanagan joins the hosts of the Rip It Up podcast Jenny Sheehan (@workerscottage) and Kate O'Driscoll (@victorianrathmines) also a previous guest to discuss the most common renovation mistakes and how to avoid them.

 

They emphasize the importance of planning layouts for functionality, budgeting for interior finishes, and the critical role of lighting in creating a welcoming atmosphere. The conversation is rich with insights and practical tips for anyone considering a renovation project.

 

Takeaways

• Planning your layouts is crucial for functionality
• Consider long-term needs when designing spaces
• Budget for interior finishes early in the renovation process
• Get multiple quotes to avoid overspending
• Lighting can transform a space and should be planned early
• Think about how you live in your space, not just aesthetics
• Storage solutions are key to maintaining a tidy home
• Flexibility in design allows for future changes
• Don't overlook the importance of electrical planning for lighting
• Choose timeless materials for long-lasting appeal

Episode Transcript

(00:23):
Okay, welcome back to the podcast.
Hi, Kate.
And hi, Tanya.
Hello, this is weird.
But it's a super, a super episode, a super bumper collaboration, which I am so excitedabout.
So we've been doing lots of prep in the background, thinking all about what are the mostinteresting and informative topics that we can bring to listeners this week.

(00:45):
And I think we've got it nailed.
So there's loads to talk about.
Let's start with a quick intro.
So regular listeners of Rip It Up, not all of you might know Tanya will I just let you doa quick intro?
I am Tanya Neufeld Flanagan again, I'm an interior designer, obviously not Irish, expathere living in Dublin and I run the interiors podcast we have a lot of crossover on our

(01:06):
topics and I love your guys's podcast.
So I thought it would be awesome to put our brains together to bring some really goodcontent.
And actually I had Kate on the podcast early on.
So for listeners, like Tanya's podcast is so, so informative and she has reallyinteresting guests on.
if you're keen to kind of get peeks into other people's renovation journeys and hear a bitmore color and flavor and lots of different experiences, then it's well worth checking

(01:32):
out.
And then obviously Tanya, you yourself are a mind of information.
So yeah, anyone from our side, go and give the interiors podcast a listen.
We'll link it in the Rip It Up show notes as well.
Great to be in touch and chatting.
Yeah.
So when we were talking behind the scenes, I think the biggest overlap we have between ourtwo podcasts, you guys technically focus on renovations.

(01:52):
I technically focus on interiors, but they go hand in hand, you know?
And I think the most successful projects are when both are fully considered.
And so what we decided to talk about and share with you guys are the biggest renovationmistakes we see people making.
Yeah.
And how to avoid them, crucially, how to avoid them and not to fall from the top.

(02:13):
Because I think the best thing about listening from others and learning from mistakes isthat you can avoid them and they can be expensive.
So we are here to save you lots of money and time and headaches and pressure.
We're going to start, Kate, with you.
you are going to take us through what is the number one biggest renovation mistake you seepeople making or have made yourself.
Yeah, so I am speaking from personal experience here when I talk about big renovationmistakes, because I did it in my last house and I will not do it this time.

(02:41):
And it's a big one.
you're planning your layouts, you're planning, how you're going to use the house, howyou're going to divide up the spaces, the shape of your extension, it's how you're
designing the house for maybe form over function and how you want it to look and how youwant it to,
feel and flow versus like what your actual real day to day life is.
Like, so I think our last house, we were like, let's have this formal dining room in themiddle of the house.

(03:04):
Let's have an open antique bar cart.
Let's have steps everywhere with no doors covering them.
And like, it was lovely.
But in hindsight, if we were still there now with two small kids, it would be an absolutedisaster.
And it's not just planning for kids, right?
It's planning for things like
old age, maybe when your parents get old and they might need to stay with you a bit moreand you need that extra spare space.
it's just designing about the medium to long-term in mind rather than what you're seeingon Instagram and what you're seeing on lovely interiors pages, but doesn't necessarily

(03:32):
work for your life or mightn't work for your life in a couple of years time.
that was just my biggest learning, not having like everything open plan.
Cause I think we designed our last house pre COVID, right?
we had the plans done, planning permission, and then COVID hit.
And we were just back in the house and both of us, me and my husband, were both workingfrom home.
And no office built into the house.

(03:52):
we had a desk in one of the spare bedrooms, but we had no office space and both of us wereworking from home.
were on calls and trying to wear headsets.
I was working in the landing and kind of a desk there, but it was open.
like Keane could hear me all over the house when I was on my calls and vice versa.
If he was working at the kitchen island or some other desk in a bedroom or something.
So that was like a little bit of a disaster.
And I think life since COVID has changed so drastically, we need more closed spaces thanwe did, with everyone coming home from being out at school or work or whatever the whole

(04:21):
day, and then we all come back together in this big, lovely open plan space.
But now we're there almost all day, a lot of the time for people.
That was my thought anyway.
What do you guys think on that?
Yeah, the transition has been quite stark.
I think everyone's sick of open plan.
I think we're all a little bit sick of each other.
it works for a certain phase of life and then it quite quickly doesn't, especially ifthere is growing kids or teenagers maybe who just need a little bit of their own space or

(04:47):
obviously we're all working from home a little bit more as well and we need space for forcalls and all that.
But I think the the step
that we miss a lot that leads to that mistake and lots of mistakes is just sitting downand doing a very honest assessment of your day and how you move about the space in your
day and where you need to be and what you need to do and being honest with your life andhow you live it as opposed to seeing something and saying I want that.

(05:10):
it's also like you said, it's not only the case for people who have children, not everyonewants to have kids necessarily.
It's also about like, does clutter bother you?
Do you clean the kitchen after every single meal?
Is it actually restful to be watching TV while you can see your laptop notifications?
You know, it's also about like segmenting parts of our life.

(05:32):
And I think like you said, COVID has maybe changed people's lifestyles.
a little bit and so now we're a bit more back to segregating parts of our life because itall became too much during COVID and now we see why people had separate rooms for things.
There are smart ways to get around it.
You can still kind of have flexible but not totally open plan.

(05:52):
So like pocket doors and you know, a lot of people putting in barn doors, which are alittle bit easier to do than pocket doors if you're not doing a huge renovation, because
they could run over the space or over the walls, by folding doors, glass doors, maybe thathave some privacy screens or something on them.
so there's ways and means to make it open when you need it open.
in our last house,
We had bifolding old stores anyway, but with parliament hinges on them, could fold themback like almost 180 back against the wall.

(06:17):
it was open plan when you needed the whole thing open plan.
But yeah, I wouldn't underestimate the power of having a door in just any spaces.
You're totally right.
It doesn't have to be construction.
It doesn't have to be interior walls that are built in.
I came around to this concept and I really didn't like it at the start.
But Rose Uniacke has these beautiful interior curtains on interior walls that she uses asdividers, really heavy material in kitchens and stuff sometimes.

(06:47):
Wow.
I used to hate the idea of this.
like, no way would I ever use an interior curtain.
it's just not nice, but my God, the way she does it and the fabric she uses, it has reallyturned me around to the idea.
it's going to be people listening for whom, building a wall or even installing a doorisn't necessarily going to be an option, but room dividers, like using bookshelves, like
narrow bookshelves, for example, as room dividers and even zoning it off and just having alittle bit of privacy, even just visually.

(07:13):
even if it's not necessarily like closing off an entire space, there's a lot you can dothere to just break up a room a little bit more and make it a bit more zoned.
I think broken plan living was the term that the interior design media community coinedthere a few years ago to describe that.
Yeah, yeah.
But Rosian Uniacke can't do anything wrong, in fairness.

(07:33):
She could just come and do my whole house That'd be cool.
Thanks.
But yeah, even what are we going to call it, Jen?
Your workhorse room downstairs.
It's like the perfect example of this, right?
You've designed it for like almost every eventuality.
You can work there, but then you can kind of close off that working space you have.
a sofa bed if you need that kind of overfill for people coming to stay, have a bit ofstorage in there.

(07:54):
cabinetry and kind of custom joinery and stuff like that could be your friend here.
If that makes the room multifunctional.
like you said, Tanya, like you don't want to be looking at your computer pinging on theside if you're watching TV or you're relaxing in the evening.
So the ability to kind of close off things like butlers, pantries and kitchens that havesliding high doors, you can have it open day to day in your normal life when everyone's

(08:14):
kind of milling around the kitchen, but then you can close it off and have that.
space nice and kind of calm and relaxed and tidy looking.
yeah, those kind of partitions, doors, plants even sometimes can be a of a smart way doingit as well if you don't want to put walls and stuff up.
Flexible wardrobes, we soaked with this before as well, Jen.
I bought the Elfa system because I just didn't know what the layout of my house was goingto be after the renovation.

(08:35):
So we did the flexible wardrobe space in one of the rooms, which ended up being kind of anursery for my
daughter, but then I'm going to reuse that because it's customizable and I can fit it intoanything and just put doors over the front of it, you know?
So it's kind of building in that flexibility as well into any kind of cabinetry andjoinery.
And I was speaking to a client a while back and I was just doing kind of the finishes andinteriors in her house.

(09:00):
And I just thought it was the smartest thing ever.
Their middle room in the house, they didn't call it the dining room or the bar room or theplayroom.
They just call it the evolve room because they knew like,
it would evolve into different things.
like at the moment, their kids were kind of young and they wanted to just put kind ofbench storage and whatever, because they knew it was going be toys and mess.
But like they knew then they'd want to kind of take it back as a bit of an adult space ora den when they got older or whatever I just thought that term or the coining it the

(09:22):
evolve room was cool.
That's so interesting from like a psychology perspective and how just framing something,because I think we like designate spaces and we're like, that's what that's for.
And therefore that is all that that would be for.
there's something simple, but also very impactful in just calling it something differentand like allowing yourself to, you know, use it and change it as needed.

(09:42):
I love that.
a formal dining room is often kind of relegated and that's why a lot of people have movedaway from them.
and in this rental we're living in, we have our dining room in the front just cause that'swhere it got put by the movers.
I ended up making it my office and I just remove my laptop if we want to have a meal hereor people over.
you can make spaces kind of work harder if you, if you need to.

(10:03):
actually going back to what you were saying, Kate, two things about this evolve room.
I think if as people are realizing that perhaps they need to have more of these separateareas, I think there's a rethinking of what is on people's must lists.
I think with the open plan space, people are like, great, that takes care of kitchen,living, dining for everyone.

(10:24):
So I can take this little pocket of space for my utility room and I can have the pantryand I can have a cloakroom.
If you start separating the spaces, you might have to sacrifice.
some of those and Jenny, like you're saying, do you really need this separate pantry or isit just beautiful on Instagram and this devolved kitchen with the oranges and the wooden
drawers?
It's like, do you keep your oranges and wooden drawers currently?

(10:47):
Do you have 16 pomegranates out on your couch top all the time?
And are you going to be willing to store everything perfectly all the time?
Like,
Yeah, like in our own renovation, I would have loved to have a utility room and I do thinkit's incredibly practical, but we decided to have one bedroom for hopefully two children
to share for a while.
And then one of the rooms in the basement is our Evolve room.

(11:08):
So it'll take a bed for now and be a guest room, but it also has a table in there to be adesk.
But in the future, that'll hopefully be one of the kids rooms.
And I could have made that a utility room, which is what our neighbors did.
an identical house on the terrace, but instead we built in the utility into a longcorridor of units that have an integrated drawing unit because I don't think I can

(11:29):
sacrifice a whole room for this when we don't know the way our lives are going to changeover the next 10 years.
if you lock it into a utility room, realistically, you're never gonna, you're never gonnalose it because it's going to be so, so handy.
still need the flexibility to change it into one if you do find you need it.
And you do want that space for hanging up.
Like it's not hard to switch that way.

(11:52):
Yeah, bring in the clothes.
that term evolve room is going to be lodged in my head now forever.
love it.
What you were saying there, Tanya, about the fact that your dining room has kind of becomeyour office.
Like in order to turn it into an effective office, there's only maybe two or three likesimple little things that you need to do when you're thinking about it, which is.
somewhere to put away your stuff maybe at the end of the day or when there's people comingover to eat, making sure that you've got like good task lighting wherever you're working

(12:15):
and then making sure that you're comfortable eating and a laptop riser or something likethat.
And that little level of additional planning then gives you so much extra functionality inone room.
It's not super complicated, just takes a bit of thought.
I was thinking as well, like making the space flexible.
There's a couple of little things to think about.
If you think the space might change functionally, build some mechanical and electricalplants around that as well.

(12:38):
So you'll never regret an extra socket.
in a corner, don't have a dark corner where you have no wiring and no plumbing that youmight need plumbing later or something like that.
So just consider that it might make sense to, you know, run pipe if you were re plumbingthe house, so you have water there.
if you were to change it into a utility, you need a sink or you needed an electric showerdown the line or something like that.
It might make those things a bit easier.

(12:59):
Yeah, because no one's ever like going back to do works to remove a socket like just putit in.
Yeah, in our case that room, which is not a utility room, has a stud partition in therebecause we put in a bathroom and there's services through there.
So if you absolutely needed to, you could probably divert from some of the pipes in thereto add the washing units there.

(13:19):
one thing, Kate, you're mentioning this as your big mistake, you talked about theplayroom.
So somebody with two kids talked to me about that because my kid is...
He's about to be one, so I don't see the need for a playroom yet, but it's somethingpeople seem to talk about like the Holy Grail.
Some people say it's a waste of time.
It depends, I suppose, how you like to live.
Like I like to tidy away all the toys for me to relax in the evening.

(13:41):
Like they'd bother me sitting there looking at them, to be honest.
So like I make it as simple as possible where like I have a nice storage ottoman and anice fabric that you can lift up the top and all their toys get fired into boxes.
Or, even mini crates of the different types of toys.
So they're kind of easy to tidy away and they're easy to throw back into that ottoman.
Storage is kind of your friend, If you're building like a media unit or something, youmight build just drawer media units and storage, you'll never regret having a bit extra

(14:05):
storage.
But I think storage is your friend when you've kind of when you have kids and like, justif you like to your place a bit tidier, maybe if you can't build in custom storage or
drawer units and stuff like that, really nice rat ambascus so you can at least dump theminto that and just sit back and relax in a place that's somewhat tidy.
But I think kids, like a dedicated playroom, I don't know, I think kids want to be whereyou are.

(14:26):
So they're going to follow you.
Like we have a little side room that only really functions as a playroom in our rental andthey're never in there.
They bring their toys into the living room to us all the time.
The only thing they play out there is the kitchen because it's kind of fixed like the toykitchen.
But like other than that, they'll bring the box of toys in or they'll bring the buggy withfull of stuff in with us.
allow for that and allow for kind of ease of putting stuff away if you want to sit and

(14:50):
some sort of level of cam in evening time.
Yeah.
I love it.
Okay.
That was a great one.
That's the greatest on how to avoid it.
Tanya, over to you.
What is your main renovation or interior design mistake that you see people making?
So my biggest one is people think that interiors come when you're like moving into thehouse and they're like, cool, I'm ready to do interiors.

(15:11):
Like the painters are coming in two weeks.
usually like the kitchen and some of the bathroom items they have to order beforehand.
A lot of the interiors finishes and most specifically the budget for the finish you wantin your mind that you've been dreaming of since you bought this house.
are not considered at the same stage as the renovation itself.

(15:34):
Most people are doing some level of architectural drawing.
Even if they're not, even if it's just a fixer-upper that they're doing as they go, you'restill pricing windows, right?
You're still pricing all these outer shell elements.
And if you don't know what your dream kitchen costs or your dream bathroom, whatever issuper important to you, right?
It could be different things for different people.

(15:54):
Some people don't mind laminate
Some people it's all about the marble stone on the island.
If you don't consider those and get actual quotes and shop around when you are designing,what happens is you'll fall in love with the 30 square meter, 40 square meter extension
with the glass sliders and the utility room and all of these things.

(16:14):
And there's going to be steel supports here and there.
And you love these really slim windows.
and all that gets locked in.
then there's some PC sums set aside.
then the time comes and you're like, that doesn't really cover the shower that I wanted.
That doesn't really cover the joinery.
The joinery is a huge one.
So I think that's a huge one for me as an interior designer.
People are like, I'm not ready for interior design yet.

(16:36):
And I'm like, okay, well, have you bought the house?
Yeah.
I'm like, you're ready.
Totally.
And for listener, if like if you're approaching your renovation and you're maybe just atquote stage, PC some is like an estimate that your contractor, whoever's responding to
your bid will just put into the bid response to cover that area.
So you might see like PC some for sanitary ware, for example.

(16:58):
And that will just be a market average of what sinks and toilets, know, average sinks andtoilets cost at the time.
So
As you were saying, Tanya, it might be plenty because maybe you don't really care aboutthings, the toilets or you're fine with aminoflooring or you're, you don't, just want like
plain white paint.
That's fine.
But if you want anything more bespoke or nicer than that, then you need to plan for that.

(17:21):
in advance.
And like, Kate, when I was going through my renovation, you gave me such a tip, whichsounds really simple, but it just saved me so much time, which is get three quotes for
anything that's big.
Cause you can, you can lose your marbles.
You can go down a rabbit hole or you can be like,
Oh, I was chatting to my friend in the pub and they said their flooring costs likewhatever, 80 euro a square meter.
And you're like, that's what flooring costs, and it doesn't like the range is massive, butyou also could lose your marbles, trying to find an accurate goal.

(17:47):
So just go and get three across a different range and then like map that somewhere intoyour budget.
I find that so helpful.
Yeah, and I loved your tip as well when we spoke about budget trackers before Jen, whenyou were saying like, you have the prices for things, you're like, this is my wishlist,
like, this is the thing I really, really want.
But this is the other item that I'd be willing to accept.
So then when it kind of starts to come to those finishes, you can kind of say, God, can'tget choice A, but I'll, you know, be relegated to my choice B, but that will let me have

(18:15):
choice A in two other things or whatever.
knowing that but like, yeah, having an interior designer, Tanya, like
early on, there's so many things that they are involved in that they don't even expect aninterior designer to touch up.
Even as far back as your mechanical electrical plants, the types of switches and sockets,like where are they going?
Where are you going to put floor lamps?
Where are you going to put wall lamps?

(18:35):
know, all that kind of stuff.
It all falls under that umbrella.
And when, which is so important, when you need to have that decision made by, when youneed to know, when you need to have that conversation with the electrician or whatever it
might be.
It's so important.
Yeah.
And I think people get really overwhelmed when they start a project.
people buy the house and they underestimate how long it's going to take even once you'redone with the purchase process, that's taken forever and you're exhausted.

(18:58):
You find the architect you want to work with or a technician to do up your plans.
Then you're like, okay, yeah, we'll probably, we'll get onsite three to six months.
people start getting tired of all the waiting.
Then when the project starts, it's like,
amazing.
And people have jobs and families and interior design isn't necessarily their thing asmuch as we love it.
And it's easy for us to say like, get three quotes of everything and know exactly what youwant.

(19:22):
Like that's two huge jobs.
That's why people hire renovation consultants and interior designers.
Yeah.
So you just have to break it down, I think.
And the easiest way to do it is from a chronological point of view like,
where are you gonna have to make the decisions first?
And that are huge items like your kitchen and your bathrooms.

(19:42):
if you just start there and with the biggest square meters, so your flooring, your kitchenand your bathrooms, just take it one at a time and whatever's most important to you, like
if it's actually the kitchen, it's gonna influence the rest of the design, spend some timegoing to kitchen showrooms, you know, work on...
maybe a place that might be a little more affordable or a place that your sister-in-lawhas that you're obsessed with, and then try to find a middle ground.

(20:07):
And just start from there.
you'll learn so much by going to these showrooms and looking at the materials, and it'llstart to influence your design for then the next step.
So don't overwhelm yourself trying to think of every single thing.
Just start with the kitchen or the flooring.
and then move to bathroom.
that would be my advice.
I think that's a great one.
cause decision fatigue is so real.

(20:28):
there aren't just so many decisions that have to be made and it's exhausting.
And there's genuinely only so much you can do in a day.
Like not even, you know, time wise or what you have the energy and effort for, or what'spossible to fit, but just what you can actually decide.
don't quote me on the neuroscience of this, but I think there is like a limit to how manydecisions you actually can make like over a certain period of time.
And it's really difficult.

(20:49):
Do you ever see those videos on like, I think it's Instagram or something.
they show you a picture of like a small bathroom.
And they're like, how many design choices are there in this picture?
And you expect like, I know, if there are eight and then all pop up, all the text pops up.
all the little micro decisions you have to make.
And you're talking about a small bathroom.
You could be talking about between 50 and a hundred micro decisions in that room.
When you're talking about layers and lights and all the different sounds you were in thebrassware and the flooring and the.

(21:12):
grout colours and like exactly like you want tile term or you want to miter it like allthose like tiny bits.
There's so many micro decisions and I'm at that point as well and you probably are as wellTanya like what we've a million decisions for your own house and it pays to be as
organised as you can early on because it will end up you'll get what you want in the endobviously a bit more than if you leave it too late but you'll come in closer to your

(21:35):
budget or close it on budget and you have the time and you allow yourself the time to
maneuver between maybe your first and second choices and getting good prices for thingsbecause you buy stuff on sales or whatever like that.
So yeah, start early with an interior designer, would say.
Yeah, the first designer I worked for, I interviewed her on the podcast, Steph O'Sullivan.
She has a beautiful house called Cole Lane House.

(21:58):
Oh, Stunning concrete build very mid century.
And the advice she gave on it, which sounds so much easier than it is, is have everydecision made before the builder opens the site.
I totally agree.
I totally agree with that.
You can change your mind.
Yeah, exactly.
Just have it there.
most people renovating or doing up a house are doing it for the first time because not noteveryone will do it again or do twice.

(22:25):
So somebody like us who's maybe, you know, done her own or one more than one like thosedecisions come easier because you know what works and what doesn't.
If you're doing it for the first time, those decisions are much harder because you have togo and find out a lot more information to be able to make the decision.
So I do think sitting down when you have the time, when you're not being bombarded, whenyou're not under a deadline, because waiting for your contractor to start is going to take

(22:48):
longer than you think.
So use that time when you have it, when you have the space and you have the freedom tochange your mind and you're not up against it, use that time to just plan it out and
work with your designer or whoever you're working or however you're doing it to puttogether that mood board, to lay out those finishes together, to look into what types of
tile finishes there will be and what questions you'll be asked or what decisions you needto make and do it in advance.

(23:12):
And my God, life will be so much easier.
Not least because we order times for lots of these items as well.
It's so long.
So you have to do it early.
Can I somewhat disagree a little bit here in that making my decisions before the builderstarts, I'm not in disagreement with it because if you're picking classic really good
finishes, they'll stand the test of time.
But if your budgets are maybe slightly lower and you're picking some more on trend items,I personally find from the time I planned my house when I bought it, I bought it three

(23:41):
years ago now, right?
We've been in our build for the last nine months.
a very different house than what I anticipated at the start when I bought that house.
same.
Like, mean, if I had picked them a year ago.
I'm not sure I would still love them.
And when I look at stuff over and over and over again, I'm second guessing myself.
I looked at the colour of my kitchen for like six months, then when it came to locking in,was like.
I want to go a little bit lighter on it.

(24:02):
Like I just was so sick of looking at the dark.
The dark wood kitchen had become so much more prominent on my feed and like I was justseeing it all the time.
And then I was like, now I want something different again.
think what Jenny said, you make a decision just so you are flexing that muscle, thatmuscle of choosing something and there's a relief, there's a little dopamine hit and
moving on to the next.

(24:22):
But I think you're right, Kate.
I think it's part of the creative process and designers do this.
They have all the pins of everything up on a board.
And then they're like, do you know what?
I actually don't think that wallpaper is going to work for that project.
and you swap it out and it's iterative, I think 100%.
And like you said, Kate, it catches the trends because the trend is the thing that you'rejust like, now that I chose this, you know, the fake versions of the encaustic tiles,

(24:46):
they're a big pet peeve of mine.
Sorry if I'm offending anyone.
But they're really popular for a while and still are.
So let's say you choose it and then you start seeing it in magazines and on Instagram.
And then you're like, is it really me?
Yeah.
that's the way it should be done.
Yeah, I totally agree with maybe locking in the big, big ticket items.
Like you said, like, you know, you want traditional sanitary ware versus very modern wallhung stuff.

(25:09):
knowing those things and making those larger decisions.
Or for me, wood floors are a big thing.
I'm so obsessed with wood floors that I was like, I know I probably won't settle for plankbecause my hates it.
Well, like I love original plank, but I don't think I put plank flooring everywhere elsein my house.
So I knew like I wanted something kind of parquet or something bespoke.
So I was like,
OK, I'll make that decision for the floor.
at least I'm working on some sort of grounding.

(25:30):
then, but I was so certain on Tarasso my house.
Like, I mean, you could not have wavered me like 18 months ago, whatever, two years ago.
I was like, I'm getting it.
I'm getting it.
This is the color of my kitchen.
These are how they're going to go together.
And the more I looked at it and the more I looked at the flyers and I couldn't find verygood ones.
And I was getting horror stories from people where it didn't turn out right.
Then I was like, I have to get away from Tarasso.

(25:51):
Like, and then it was so divisive.
Some people really hate it and I get that, like a very specific finish.
And then I go, God, we're putting down like this super expensive finish in the house.
like, no one, me, like I'd probably change the house again in five years or something.
So I'm like, what if I'm the house and everyone hates the terratso and hates my house?
do it early, like you decided early.

(26:12):
Cause I like you want to be, if I'm getting sick of something, I want to be getting sickof like my mood boards or, what's my Instagram feed.
I don't want to be getting sick of my actual kitchen or my actual floor, my actual tile.
And I'm so glad you did that 180 on Toronto because I do love Toronto for commercialspaces for hospitality.
think it's beautiful and it is a timeless material.

(26:33):
I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but a lot of people start out their extension dreamwith the open plan, polished concrete Toronto.
And a lot of times I say to, you know, it might be friend or family or an acquaintance.
I'm like, have you gotten a quote yet?
And they're like, no.
And I'm like, okay, you're to be surprised by how expensive it is.
Consider a plan B because is it the most important thing or is your kitchen moreimportant?

(26:55):
Most people are like, my kitchen's more important.
And I'm like, okay, like reconsider other things because the polished concrete and theterrazzo have been very popular for a few years and it's a really permanent expensive
choice.
It's not like engineered timber, which you can lift up, you know, it's just glued down.
Some of the bigger pieces, like I know, Tanya, you and I have picked quite similarfinishes for both our houses or both our renovations at the moment.

(27:19):
For me, deciding on big ticket items when they're natural materials is a no brainer forme.
Like, I'm kind of willing to spend the extra budget if I have it on natural materialsbecause I know they won't date.
Like you said, like the fake encaustic stuff like that, like they might be good for sixmonths and then they'll be gone again or whatever.
or like a five grand boucle couch.
I bet you people who bought that were regretting it because no one wants boucle anymore.

(27:42):
So I'm just saying like those big ticket items, those kind of natural materials and moreauthentic kind of finishes will be timeless and you'll be able to change everything else
around it and change the whole feel of the house.
Yeah, so I guess the big question is not everyone loves all the natural materials, buteveryone would love to go with the highest tier thing they think is worth it.
What are where are good places to make that sacrifice?

(28:02):
Let's say you're doing the right thing.
You're considering it early on.
One of the things I think is reducing the size of your extension potentially or, you know,looking at the cost of the windows or removing some windows.
Just reconsidering some of those elements so that you can spend an extra, you know, itcould be an extra 10 or 20 grand that you actually need.
It's not like small bits for when it comes to joinery, kitchen and flooring finishes.

(28:26):
But what about you, Kate?
What are some tips work if you splurge on the marble or on the wood floor, where can yousave?
our houses detached.
So we had windows to restore all in the front on the sides and then the whole back wasgoing to be new.
And we had three sets of French doors originally.
Well, sorry, we four set the French doors because we have kind of a garden room withFrench doors and oh my God, the prices I was getting for joining there like joining French

(28:49):
doors.
And look, I love them.
I love them.
I love like at the start I was like, there's nothing will suffice.
But then I got
slightly more standard French doors from somewhere else that were literally saving 20grand, think.
Versus the joinery.
Just on the French doors.
I'm not even talking about all the windows.
And then we put in this enormous sash.
It's kind of a window seat in our kitchen.
And it's like spring spiral sash.

(29:12):
like, I know I don't have all the romance of the weights and all that kind of stuff, butit was way cheaper.
It looks almost the same.
And because it was such an expansive glass, I could get away with the frames being those,know, a couple of millimeters thicker than it probably would have been for a joiner.
So like, that's where I saved personally.
thought at the outset it was a non-negotiable for me having, you know, fully joineryFrench doors everywhere.

(29:34):
And then when I saw French doors, it cost me 40 grand.
was like, I have to budge on this.
Like I have to.
So yeah, it's knowing you're non-negotiables,
And looking at the dupes, because sometimes you're like, that's all I want, like a cradledoor.
A lot of people love the cradle doors, but to make those out of steel is really expensivesometimes.
you can have gorgeous ones made out of timber.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(29:54):
And the timber ones are probably better than the kicker aluminium dupes of cradle.
You know what I mean?
So you'll get that thin look of the wood beading and stuff like that.
And it'll look better, I think, than the kind of fatter, rounder aluminium or PVCversions.
acoustically lovely too.
think the timbre is softer to the touch.
It's nice.
The other thing you can do as well is think about for all the big ticket items that areimportant, I always think like the ones you can't replace are the probably ones you should

(30:19):
focus on.
But if there's something that you could live without for now and then save up again toreplace it in five years.
And if it is actually replaceable, then is that worth it?
So for example, look, could you live with a kitchen, Lamina kitchen countertop for thenext five to six years?
Like if that's maxing out your budget, but you're really focused on
a specific type of marble or quartz or whatever it might be, would you be open to waitingand then saving up and then replacing that?

(30:44):
But it has to be actually replaceable.
Like realistically, not your windows, realistically not your floor.
But there's, you know, there are other things that you could potentially go with aninterim version and then replace.
Yeah.
Well, that sums up my mistake and a few ways to avoid it or to think a little moreintelligently about it without getting fully overwhelmed.

(31:05):
And I do think it's just smart to just start a spreadsheet and just do room by room a listof everything that in that room and cost per square meter, the cost per item, just do a
little bit of research.
it'll start giving you a lot of clarity.
I have one, it's free to download.
one that I put together is like basic enough, but the one I put together for my ownrenovation, you can get it on my Instagram at Workers' Cottage or on my website,

(31:26):
jennetheane.com.
if you love it, you can buy me a coffee, but it is free to download.
Cool.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
So what's your what's the biggest renovation mistake you think people should know aboutJenny?
For me, it's lighting.
I think lighting is so important to a house.
people think of it way too late or not at all.
And the amount of time and effort that we put in to finishes and colors and wallpaper andthe right paint, the right flooring, and all of it in service of creating the environment

(31:55):
and the atmosphere and the ambience that we want.
And it can be destroyed by the wrong lighting.
it's not
rocket science, it is not simple, but it's not the hardest thing on the planet.
it doesn't have to be super expensive, but it does need thought and early thought andplanning and layout to get it right.
I also think if you're in your home now looking at your four walls and you're like, I'msick and of this place.

(32:17):
Maybe that could be the thing that can transform it.
Or, you know, if you're on a budget, like really clever lighting.
and do.
so much to transform a home and it doesn't have to be super expensive.
You don't have to, rip things out and well, sometimes you might have to chase warriors butnot so if you go with your chargeable lamps.
But anyway, I think, just think it's so, so, so, so, so important and so often anafterthought that, you know, when done wrong is ruinous and when done right is absolutely

(32:42):
transformative.
I agree as an interior designer.
I think people who think they are modern or minimalist or like contemporary think thatmeans that they shouldn't have decorative lighting.
And then they end up with, some spots in this hall, some spots here, some spots there.
so many things, it's about 50,000.

(33:02):
It's like a runway.
Yeah.
unnecessary.
How can I get spots out of here?
Like where is the minimal amount I need?
so people who think of themselves as minimalist and contemporary won't consider lighting,especially that group.
Because if you like more traditional, then you will end up, with a bit more sconces or atable lamp.
So I think it's the people who are particularly at risk are the modernists.

(33:27):
yeah.
And what about in your experience, when did you start planning the lighting?
That was the first thing I started planning and it was because I got advice to do so.
my architect was really architect and he did a great job, but he told me early on thatlighting was not in his wheelhouse.
He just didn't really feel comfortable advising on lighting.
But he also told me it was one of the most important things to get right and that I shouldthink about it first.

(33:53):
And I did work with an interior designer for my home.
She's phenomenal, really great.
But she worked in commercial spaces where lighting architecture is a whole separate field.
So while she was brilliant at a lot of things in interiors, she also was like, I'm not 100% sure on lighting because that's not part of my normal day-to-day job.

(34:13):
I really got to be in my band about it because I was told to it early and I was kind of onmy own with it.
And I'm so glad I got that advice to do it early because thinking about it as a part ofevery step of the renovation process was important.
Like where did I want wall lights to go?
What was the layout of the room going to be?
What did that mean for where those lights were going to go?
How much light did I actually need?
What kind of brightness did I need for where?
All of that was really, really important.

(34:35):
And then just thinking about how could light be incorporated Like what needed to be lit?
What did I want to highlight?
And what atmosphere do I want?
Like when do I want the room to be lit in certain ways versus when did I want it to bebrighter for, you know, task lighting or much more ambience?
So we're talking about spotlighting In my entire house, I have eight spotlights.
There's four in the kitchen and that is plenty.

(34:56):
There are two above me right now above my working desk and that is plenty.
And there's one in each bathroom.
And then I also have everything on different switches, which I love.
So Kate and I have done an episode on smart homes and smart lighting and different kind ofvoice activated lighting.
I'm just late to that game.
do have an Amazon Alexa, but switches just work fine for me.
So I don't really feel the need to go all in on the smart home, but that's because I planthem well.

(35:20):
I have an array of different switches in every room that will do different.
types of lighting, depending on how I wanted to feel that day or what lights I want toturn on that day or that time of day.
So that's really important.
And then, yeah, thinking about like where are they placed?
What do I want to be lit?
And how will it make the rest of the room look and feel?
Like how will my paint and colors perform in that type of lighting or that time of day?

(35:42):
I think it's really important too.
it's so massive for atmosphere and it's so massive for
how you feel in that space.
you're just hanging out having dinner and you just have this really harsh spotlight overyour head, it's uncomfortable and unflattering, which is uncomfortable as well.
So, I like to look good.
I like my guests to look good.
I like my guests to feel good.

(36:03):
I think diffuse ambient wall lighting, not harsh overhead, bright lighting is really,really important and needs to be planned early.
Yeah, I think one of the things that stood out to me there is in order to do a properelectrical plan, you need to have your furniture layout done.
Yeah, it's the only way to do it right.
And again, that is something people don't fully consider.

(36:26):
Sometimes architects will put certain blocks, but that's not necessarily the layout youwant or the sofa you have to in there.
And I think doing that work hand in hand with the lighting would be ideal and really undermaking sure that that coffee table.
fits there, that sofa fits there and okay, yeah, actually, it would be lovely to have afloor lamp in that corner.
If you add a five amp, your electrician can put that in.

(36:48):
Yeah, you can control that floor lamp on a switch instead of like having to dive behindthe sofa and like find the switch on like,
Just have a smart bulb guys, come on I'm gonna bang this room.
Smart bulbs, you don't need this stupid 3 pin 5 amp.
Okay, maybe I need to get into this too.
I will concede, I do have two now and yeah, they are good.
They are for lamps, for lamps.

(37:09):
Yeah, I couldn't care less for pendants, but I think for lamps, it makes sense.
And it's just, yeah, it's a lot less hassle and stuff.
Now I have a total nerd husband who worked for Smart Home and Amazon for years So yeah,that's where it of came from.
And I was totally like a nice air of start.
was like, oh, so stupid.
And I don't want to use my voice and I don't want to use this, but I'm kind of comingaround to it now.
I get it.
I set him this challenge in our last house.

(37:30):
I was like, you can put whatever smart stuff you want in this house, but I do not want tosee it.
And I want my light switches to be old fashioned toggle light switches sorted out.
And he did.
He even got dimmers that look like toggles.
I love those.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very smart.
You'll never regret a dimmer.

(37:51):
Especially in a bathroom where you have a bath.
Put it down, like minimum light and have a nice cozy bath.
Obviously you can just light candles as well, but I just think it's nice.
warm light bulbs and dimmers, I think you can't go wrong.
Yes, warm light bulbs.
Let's talk about Kelvin.
so there's two terms and we've covered this extensively, but it's a hard one.
two terms to get right, Kelvin's and Lumen.

(38:12):
So Kelvin is how warm is your light bulb on a range of like bright, almost blue, whitelighting, which I never want outside of an operating theater.
But some people do like it and that's absolutely fine.
All the way down to like, you know, candle, orangey, yellowy kind of warmth.
So lower Kelvin is lower.

(38:32):
is warmer, yellower light, higher Kelvin is that brighter, almost bluish light.
And then the second thing you need to think about is lumens.
So we used to buy bulbs with and look at wattage and how many watts was that bulb.
But actually bulbs are, they've all changed now and a lot of bulbs are LEDs.
And so while wattage used to be an accurate, relatively accurate portrayal of how brightthat bulb was going to be, depending on how much energy it took to light.

(38:58):
That is no longer the case.
So you need to look at lumens and that means how much light is that particular bulb givingout.
And then you can calculate, you know, you can find like lumen calculators and how much doyou need per square meter and all that kind of stuff, which is important for, you know,
your kitchen and your working spaces.
And then everything else just to kind of dimmer and have a few and then layered lighting.
So think three layers of lighting have like your daytime, you know, task, whateveroverhead, that's absolutely fine if you need it.

(39:21):
Be able to switch that off, have other ambient.
diffuse lighting, could be your wall lights, whatever.
And then your third layer is your accent lighting.
That could be your occasional lamps or even just little feature lamps.
Like Kate and I both love Siletti.
We have like fun little Siletti feature lamps and they can be turned on as well for alittle extra pop of decor.
Tanya, so you have an old house as well.

(39:43):
And like, I definitely didn't give due consideration on my last renovation to lighting.
Like, so I kind of took for granted.
was like, well, there's ceiling rolls in every room.
I'm just going to put a pendant, multi-light pendant, same in my bedrooms and stuffupstairs.
And anywhere there was a roll, was a pendant light.
And like, we put a fuse box where we needed them and stuff in the kitchen and a couple ofwall lights in the corridors kind of into the kitchen.

(40:04):
What are the other options when you have big ceiling roses in rooms?
Like, are there other options?
I'm always a bit like, well, I have to use the roses there.
I have to do some sort of feature pendant or some sort of, well, I've gone, I'm simpleenough this time, but still big, right?
Yeah, I think I think it depends on your on your style, I suppose.
And the style of that that given room, like something that I've seen, which was reallycool, was that the new Roisin Lafferty gallery space, it was almost like an installation.

(40:31):
like the fitting can start in the Rose, but it can have other points that it mounts to.
And this particular thing was like a metallic installation, like it was likeintergalactical.
And it was insane.
So I think because of the architecture of those rooms, you do need to have something thatcomes from there.

(40:51):
But there are pendants that are then linear and that have like almost invisible mountingpieces that you could still mount to the ceiling.
You also have to make sure that things can be mounted to that type of ceiling.
Sometimes you need a certain void.
that you wouldn't get on a traditional ceiling from the Joyce above, you'd have to check.
But the other options, I think, if you really want to do something bold, I mean, somepeople do, you know, more of these like paper lanterns and whatever.

(41:18):
I do realize that's still a pendant, but.
It does diffuse the light that's coming out of it though, because my main dependence isdown on overhead lighting.
And I'm going to come out and say that I never want to see a bare bulb almost anywhere,but definitely not in dependent light.
Unless it's maybe opalescent or something, know, frosted kind of bulbs.
Even then I prefer to have it.
So I think if you can cover it, if you are doing overhead lighting in a, non-taskenvironment, like a dining room or something, then you need to cover the light and have it

(41:44):
and diffuse it somehow.
And those
fabric or paper lanterns do that very well.
Yeah.
alabaster and porcelain
Literally, alabaster.
I'm looking at it because I can't afford the ones in the size I want.
have to get off Etsy and all these antique websites because I'm like, my God.
And Vaughan Designs, think it is, also alabaster dish pendants.
I'm like, my But yeah, lighting is a real like, I don't know, you go down a rabbit holehere and like you start off with one budget and by the time you've looked at lights for a

(42:13):
day or you're like, shit, I need to like triple my budget.
Like you can really do anything in lighting and it's so amazing.
And like when you were talking about kind of different shapes or installations like that.
So our dining room is kind of a center, it's going to in the center of the house, but it'soffset to the front room.
So our house is like on an angled site.
So the chimney is a bit too close to where the ceiling rose is for our dining table to sitin front of it.

(42:33):
because it probably wasn't a dining space originally or whatever.
So we're offsetting it and doing a banquet on one side.
So I'm like racking my brain and like, how do I make this work?
So I've been looking at kind of like intermediate suspensions that drag down over thedining and stuff like that.
So hard to come by and like some of the nice fittings.
And they're like, you can't take them apart and extend the cord.
And I'm like, but I need like 2.53 meters on the cord.

(42:53):
And they all come like one or 1.5 meters standard.
Yeah, I actually found something.
had a similar issue where the pendant fitting was over the walking space in the open planarea in our last house.
And I found a fitting.
was from the Finnish Design Shop, a lot of these Scandinavian brands.
they were adjustable ropes.
And you could choose where the ceiling fittings went.

(43:15):
And they were like opaline globes with a black cord.
And you could mount them at different heights.
And they would hang.
And like the
the string itself kind of was a lovely feature with each one of them had its own littlerows.
So we were able to then play with that so that it could come over.
But you could even find some kind of cool sculptural shape.

(43:37):
have you seen these, some of them like almost look like sails, you know?
And then you could have it point in a certain direction.
So it wasn't, it doesn't look like it's trying to be centered on the room.
then I know Mullen Lighting.
First of all, if anyone wants to learn more about lighting, their blog has lots of reallyhandy guides made for the consumer.

(43:58):
you can customize a of their light fittings.
That's actually what we're using over our island.
It has polished brass.
It's a linear pendant with polished brass little shades over the bulbs.
Really simple.
And I had to customize the rod height.
I tried to make it much bigger.
And they were like, that cannot sit on a single arm.
Because of that same issue, I was like, well, it has to sit in a rose.

(44:20):
So those are good questions.
And something you said, Jenny, rechargeable lights.
Yeah.
we did an episode on them recently.
I would say, like a lot of the times people listening might be in a home and they justcannot chase wires to a wall for whatever reason.
It's just relatively expensive or maybe they don't want to rip out their wallpaper ortiles, whatever.
So rechargeable lamps had such, they exploded like on the scene the last couple of years.

(44:44):
You always see them in restaurants, but they've evolved now.
They've wall lamps, wall sconces that can be rechargeable.
Now it's not perfect.
I think you get maybe about 16 hours of battery life rating out of a good one, which isn'tinsane.
But they're getting better and better.
And it's, know, it's obviously a much better alternative to chasing a wire through yourwall.
That's not an option.
And we mentioned as well, like, think you get what you pay for in some of the rechargeablelights in terms of the battery pack and in terms of like the actual bulb itself and it not

(45:10):
being like blue, white, disgusting kind of light, it actually kind of is a nice, nicerkind of glowy kind of more diffused light in the more expensive fittings.
I was saying in my in our episode that I bought an outdoor light from Ville Roy Bach andit was like, it was pricey enough for the size of it, but I use it so much and I even use
it in
our guest bedroom because it's a perfect little touch lamp.

(45:31):
can dim it, the light off it's lovely.
It's actually as nice as having a proper lamp and the charge, I don't know, like thecharge lasts weeks I think if you're using it every day.
couple hours every day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
they sit into like a kind of a fitting and you just pop them out and recharge them.
So you don't have to be like, you know, figuring out how to get the wire to the lamp.
So I think they're, yeah, they're a great alternative.
And then you can also light things that aren't usually lit like shelves and a lot ofpeople love that open shelf over the run of units in the kitchen or even a bookshelf if

(46:01):
it's tall enough you can get some really cute little lights.
That's a really cheap way of doing it.
That's like I have that in my dining room.
That's my main lighting is just two strips of LED covered with the diffuser and built intothe back of the shelf.
then I have artwork and other little knickknacks on those shelves.
And all of that is just backlit in a very diffused way.

(46:21):
You don't see the light at all.
You don't see any of the LEDs at all.
You've done LEDs really well though, Jen.
I remember you asking me about LEDs when you were doing your housework and I was like, Ihate LEDs because I just hadn't seen them done well and I just couldn't imagine them ever
being nice, be honest.
And anytime I'd seen them, it was like bachelor pad.
You could see the dots of the LEDs and all this.
So in our kitchen design this time, they had LEDs in the shelf, like a timber floatingshelf over the low run units.

(46:48):
And I was like, I can't wrap my head around this LED strip thing.
And Jen was like, go out to these guys.
That's where I got mine.
And like, they gave me some really good advice.
Remind me of their name again, Jen?
Fibrality.
Yeah, they were great.
And he just showed me, like, he sent me away with the little box section of to hold thestrip in a shelf, you know, the line you'd have to write out, say, your shelf.

(47:12):
And he was showing me the difference in the deep one and the shallow one.
And he was like, the difference in having a slightly deeper one, I'm talking a couple ofmillimeters, and the difference is huge because the diffuser plate is that
further away from the bulb so you don't see the dots.
And he gave me some really good technical advice to how to make it glowy and what ones toget for the right Kelvin's and the right dimmable and whatever.
And yeah, they had so much.
There so much knowledge there and it wasn't LEDs how I had seen them prior.

(47:36):
That would be my instinct too, okay.
I don't usually love them because I think they're overdone.
Like you don't need an LED on a handrail.
You don't need it over like, it's very architectural and joiners love them too.
And I'm just like, no, that's not.
I like them to light up something that already looks good is what I would say.
I don't always want them in bookshelves, but I do love them in any like natural featuresin a home.

(47:59):
if you've got an alcove somewhere or something under a stairs or if there's like adifference in ceiling height or something that just deserves to And the other thing as
well is like,
A strip of LED is one way of doing it, but there is also little LED spots that could just,you know, if you've got like natural stone or something like that, or what I have is when
you come into my front door, you have to go down a couple of steps because to add thesecond story, which wasn't there when I bought my house, was only a single story, you

(48:24):
know, bungalow thing.
To add that second story, the floor had to drop and the ceiling is at a height that wouldcut the front windows in half.
were to come all the way to the front wall of the house.
So in order to prevent that from happening, the architect stepped it back a little bit.
So when they first come in, you have about a meter width of a double height, then anentrance way.
And I just have two tiny little, LED spots that would go along up the stairs, which Idon't love in every house, but it can work.

(48:50):
And it's cut, they're set into the plasterboard and they light upwards.
So,
that is a lovely, lovely feature to kind of uplight that ceiling and make a little featureout of that double height ceiling.
And they are buttons, like that's not an expensive light.
Any little LED that's built into the plasterboard isn't expensive.
So if there's somewhere or a corner or you've got like lovely plants in a certain area ofyour house or something like that where you could bring in a little LED uplight, you won't

(49:15):
see it, but you'll see the light and you'll see what's being lit.
And that is a really cheap way to bring in some, looks very expensive and reallyconsiderate.
And outdoor is a great place to put this too.
was roasting Lafferty at this point, we were talking about lighting on Newstalk a weeksago, and she was saying, one of the best things you can do for your outdoors is to think
about the lighting and bring in lighting, especially like solar and ones, make sure theyturn off, at a certain time of night, Solar powered, little, fairy lights or little

(49:43):
planters that, you know, stick like,
What you call the stage.
Yeah.
What you mean through your garden?
Because otherwise you're just looking out at darkness.
But if you've got a beautiful, lit, subtle garden where you're seeing all your nice plantsand your flowers and all that kind of stuff like that adds so much to your home and it's
not expensive to do that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I think we have covered some of our biggest mistakes.

(50:05):
And in chronological order, I think of when you're you kind of need to consider them too.
like layout and medium and long term thinking the evolve room.
Yeah.
and how you use that space.
Be honest with how you live, not what you want it to look like.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because at the end of the day, if you want this like beautiful open plan space, but it'sgoing to be full of clutter and you hate clutter, then maybe you need to give them bit

(50:30):
more space to like a wall of joinery that serves as a divider.
that can be really impactful.
Actually, one of you said, just to come back to that point, sorry, I'm extending this, butone of you said earlier, maybe, I think it was you, Tanya, maybe you scale back your
extension a little bit.
And we had said something offline in the prep for this around, might not need the space,you just might need to be more clever about what's in there and what's the layout like and

(50:52):
how much storage do you have?
Because you're right, people tend to think in square meters, I need this much space in abig, room because there's a lot of us and we're messy.
But actually maybe you don't need that much space.
Maybe you need slightly less space, but better joinery, better storage, better layout.
And that could work out cheaper.
What people don't realize is by having, let's say the 40 square meter extension.
Okay.

(51:12):
That's going to add to your building labor and materials cost and steel, but then you needa bigger rug.
You need a bigger sofa.
it's five to 10 square meters more of the high end flooring you like.
you need three or four more kitchen units.
You need a bigger pendant.
So it really tax on so much expense.
and if you don't necessarily need all that space, you could actually achieve somethingmore high end by being a little more clever with it.

(51:39):
agree.
Tanya when we're both moved in we'll do a bit of a recap on our renovation.
Yes!
We could be eating our words now in a couple of months.
Yeah, actually of all the decisions you can make, we, pretty much made every decisionbefore we started.
we're also three years from when we bought it, Kate, but the hardest one I'm facing now ispaint.
paint is one you really can't, you can't pre choose.

(52:00):
Like you really need to see those rooms plastered with your joinery and your finishes inyour hand and to look at it and sample it.
And it's so hard to do.
You can have an idea.
You can say, OK, I want a pale green for this room, or I know I want this room to be aneutral, or I want a moody downstairs lou, but that's a big one.
And don't start with that.
Don't start with your paint color.
eh

(52:21):
not.
And depending on your extension and shape and glazing and layout, the light has changed somuch.
I think I have a short list similar to you as well.
And powdered shell is coming out like top for me because everything else was showingyellow on my kitchen extension.
was like, I loved all these colors.
them in the house.
was like, no, they all look bright yellow.
Like why are they so yellow?

(52:43):
It's also the easiest thing to change, you're totally right.
There's no need to pick your paint first.
It's the easiest thing to change.
There's a million different shades, like you'll find one to match what you have.
Yeah, for sure.
And then also from Jenny's point, make sure you're thinking about your lighting early on.
Think about Kelvin, think about lumens, think about having three different sources oflight, try to reduce spotlights and start shopping around.

(53:05):
Cause it's the same as everything.
You're going to fall in love with the giant alabaster light and maybe you need to havethat for your kitchen, but then maybe you just have some fabric shades in the other rooms
and you can swap them out over the years.
Right points.
Amazing guys.
Thanks for having me on.
Thank much, fun.
Thank you.
Thanks for being here.
And for anyone listening on the interiors podcast, do go and listen to Kate and Jenny atthe rip it up podcast to learn a bit more about renovation behind the scenes.

(53:33):
Yeah likewise.
Bye bye.