43. Working with an architect (Part 2) with Sarah McNulty of McNulty Smyth

In this episode, host and interior designer Tanya Neufeld Flanagan and Sarah McNulty (@mcnultysmythassociates) delve into the intricate processes involved in working with architects and managing construction projects. 

 

They discuss the importance of understanding architectural terminology, navigating the tender process, and the significance of value engineering in aligning design with budget.

 

The conversation also covers the stages of construction, from tender analysis to finalizing layouts and managing mechanical and electrical installations, emphasizing the collaborative nature of architecture and interior design.

 

Takeaways

• Understanding architectural terminology is crucial for clients
• The tender process involves detailed drawings and builder selection
• Value engineering helps align design with budget constraints
• Construction drawings are essential for accurate project execution
• Bathroom layouts should be finalized early in the process
• First fix mechanical and electrical installations are critical stages
• Second fix involves the installation of visible fixtures and finishes
• Communication between architects, builders, and clients is key to project success
• Clients should not hesitate to ask questions about the process
• Engaging professionals early can lead to better project outcomes

Episode Transcript

(00:23):
Welcome back to another episode of the interiors podcast.
Today we have our first ever part two to an interview.
and that's with Sarah McNulty of McNulty Smith, associates.
we're having Sarah back because we were talking about everything it takes to work with anarchitect behind the scenes and really so much goes into the first stage, the design stage

(00:45):
that we ended up doing a whole episode about that.
But we decided we needed to do a second part, so welcome back, Sarah
Thanks for having me back, Tanya.
I think sometimes architects, don't know what people don't know because you're so in theindustry and the terminology and everything.
Whereas, you know, with interior design being my second career and having worked atarchitecture practices only recently myself, it's good because I can be kind of the

(01:10):
bridging gap between people listening and being like, wait, what?
What's the tender?
What's the tender analysis?
What's the PC sum?
All these things that to you are like your everyday lingo.
You're right, Sometimes architects can forget to explain.
use those like their every industry has it, those kind of firms and they make maybeassumptions that clients understand what these are.

(01:31):
Yeah, people don't learn it until they do it.
And not everyone can have an architect for the full job, which is why we're doing theseinterviews.
So in our first episode, and if you haven't listened to that probably a good idea to goback to that.
we basically talked about everything from when you're interviewing an architect andconsidering architects down to the point where you have tender set drawings after you've

(01:51):
gotten planning, if required.
And what we want to pick up from now is you sent the drawings for, for tender to a fewbuilders.
by the way, what tender means is you have chosen a few builders who are interested andavailable in the project for the project in a certain timeframe.
and you've sent them very detailed drawings that are more developed, than you're planningdrawings.

(02:12):
And based on that, they are going to price.
and I think we talked about this in the first episode too.
that this would often be accompanied ideally by a QS's bill of quantities.
And we won't go into that into too much detail, but the bill of quantities just means it'squantifying the amounts of materials for all the elements in the drawing, which is why

(02:33):
they're much more developed than a regular planning drawing, because the planning drawingsreally just for the council to approve sort of certain aesthetics and materials, right,
Sarah?
Right, the planning drawings describe the project in very broad terms, how it willvisually look, but not in enough detail that really can be built from.
Now, I do know that some people do build from planning drawings, but then they're oftendisappointed that things don't work out quite as anticipated because the detail is not

(02:59):
worked out.
And so the builder will make assumptions in order to make it work, which may not bealigned with how you visualized it.
So it's always worth
whether or not you do a full tender process, getting more detailed drawings that reallyproperly describe.
It can be ambiguous, right?
detailed drawings really make sure that all of the intention from the design point of viewis communicated on drawing.

(03:23):
And then in that shopping list, the bill of quantities there's as little, ambiguity aspossible.
There's always going to be a little bit because the building is quite a complex thing.
one of the things we wanted to talk about today was that you mentioned after the tenderstage, there's still a lot of design work to be done because pretty much always the
tenders come back higher than the estimate.

(03:43):
And that's even if you have a QS who has given you an estimate based on the updateddrawings, it's just the nature of the industry.
think now.
Yes, so when I say the design doesn't finish, there's a number of different aspects tothat.
There is when the budget comes in and it's too high and then you might have some redesignto do to align more closely to what the budget is desired to be.

(04:07):
And then we'll talk about a little bit more, maybe stage two, which is there's adifference between, again, tender drawings and construction drawings.
So tender drawings are such to price and actually you should be developing those furtheron site.
But we'll go right back Tanya to your first question, which is really,
when the tender comes in, the price is a bit too high Then as a design team, the clientspart of that because they're inputting very fully in terms of, there's some things maybe

(04:34):
they don't want to compromise on.
So you're having a very realistic conversation about what is it that you can do to pullthe budget back.
And unfortunately, it is the case that there's never really one simple place to go from myexperience.
you're looking at lots of different elements and saying, OK, can we compromise on, thatoverhang?

(04:55):
Like say we talked about solar game.
OK, will we maybe take that out for the moment and live with it for a while and see makealliances for putting it in later?
It might mean redesigning slightly to see, can you phase it?
are there elements that can be omitted?
there's situations where say it's an existing building and ideally you want to

(05:16):
change all of the roof, say it's fiber cement You've had it assessed and it's functioning.
Maybe you need flashings and stuff around the chimney checked and replaced, but you'rewilling to, not put natural state on, just live with the fiber cement, lots of different
small elements like that.
And then you go into the interiors.
Of course, I know you don't like to hear that either Tanya, but so say you hadn't tendedto have really tall,

(05:39):
joinery shop doors, okay, 2.4 high.
You can't get this off the shelf and you're willing to compromise.
We'll have lower doors and we're gonna source something off the shelf.
And there are lots of really good suppliers for off the shelf doors.
But it's never gonna be one place that you look.
It's going to be a lot of hard conversations, but it also then inputs into design.

(06:00):
So say you're reducing your door height, you still want to maybe
have that feeling of height.
So you're thinking about, well, maybe we'll keep the up taller and we'll do a setbackplaster thing.
Now that obviously has a cost implication, but it maybe doesn't have the same order ofcosts as a full joint.
So you're keeping the intention of the design intact, but you're trying to find ways topull back towards the budget.

(06:23):
Does that make sense?
Yeah, absolutely.
So one of the things you talked about there is like omitting certain things and phasingthem out and future proofing the structure in a way so that okay, we actually want to do a
second floor to this extension someday.
How do we put in strong enough foundations and make sure these walls could take that load?
You're not making a saving of taking all the steel out, but you're not putting thatelement on at the moment, yeah.

(06:47):
Yeah, and then also looking at some of the interiors PC sums, especially the big ticketitems like windows and doors
mention PCSums there and I go on to do your own thing there Tanya, explains what a PC is.
Let's explain what a PC sum is.
Yeah.
So they are sums that go into the contract with the builder that allows for whatever hasbeen specified in your architect's drawings or that you have asked for.

(07:12):
So if you're like, I want a polished concrete floor, there's going to be a PCSUM allowancefor your polished concrete floor.
And these are sums that are kind of more under the control of the architect and the clientrather than the builder, which gives you some flexibility throughout the project to get a
few different quotes for it.
Whereas, if there's no PC sum for it, it's usually a set budget that's been agreed betweenyour builder and your QS.

(07:38):
Have I described that properly?
Yes, pretty much.
it's where you want to have some control.
So if something's in the bill and it's not a prime cost sum, the builder has price for itand he will use his supplier or you have no control over who's doing that element.
So if you, for example, are not really bothered about who supplies your windows.
it does happen on projects.

(07:59):
not that I'm involved with, but
So people can go out and just say, PVC windows.
And then if they don't have a prime cost sum, they have no control over who's supplyingthose windows.
Whereas if it is a prime cost sum, they can say, okay, this is my preferred, suppliersthat they like, and they're happy to kind of deal with in terms of even servicing in the

(08:20):
future,
Yeah, absolutely.
And then the prime cost would be based on actual quotes that have already been gotten orsimilar quotes?
So during the process of preparing the tender package, there's a lot of back and forthbetween the design team.
So say the engineer, the QS and the architect in order to make sure there is as littlemistakes as possible.

(08:43):
Okay.
Cause there can be mistakes in the bill.
and they'll be asking, okay, what are the windows?
sometimes you will have sought quotes before you go out to tender, but depending on,different pressures and how quickly things are running, you mightn't get those quotes in
and window companies are all very busy, so you mightn't get them back in, right?
So he'll base it on experience of all your cloud windows are roughly this per square meterand they'll know the range.

(09:07):
that makes a lot of sense.
So we were just breaking down how you allowed that flexibility for that PC sum, it'susually an item that can be specced down, right?
And so that's one of the flexible points.
Okay.
We backtracked a little bit into the tender process because you're right in our lastinterview, we didn't fully flesh out all the back and forth.
but these are some of the examples of how to, to value engineer you mentioned the doorsand windows.

(09:32):
suppose the other huge finishes could be flooring and maybe extent of tiling.
Those are other ones where people could pull back on to get things across the line.
You know, sometimes it seems.
like nothing you're like well I'm just shaving 2000 here off this
it's lots of little things, you know, and I remember one, where I was quite surprised thechange from a concrete slab and I was a new build house to timber floors, and there was

(09:57):
quite a good saving that way.
And in some instances,
Clients might be like, no, I absolutely love the complete cutting out of the sound of theconcrete floor.
But, you know, if you can live with it, you know, people have lived with timber floors
I'm talking about changing from actual concrete slab to timber, joy.
Okay.
Yeah.
yeah.
that wouldn't even occur to me in a new build structure.

(10:18):
That's more like the American model of building.
Interesting.
Wow.
that's a good one to know.
Okay, so
And there are so many other interesting building types that
We've been fortunate to work with We've done clay block house, ICF, which is instead ofconcrete formwork, timber frame, and then standard block work.
but still the traditional block build is the most cost efficient.

(10:40):
I'm saying just to substitute the concrete slab with a timber floor.
There's a saving there.
Gotcha.
okay.
So let's walk through when you get the tenders back, like you talked about in the last,there's the tender analysis stage.
Then there's some of these meetings where you're rejigging things between that and gettingto agree a contract with a builder.

(11:02):
How long does that usually take in your experience?
we have a document that we normally send out to clients at the start of a project, whichgives a sample project timeline.
because exactly as you identified in our last chat, the general person is not aware theythink, OK, I'll get an architect and we'd be on site in four months, and.
we'd done this as part of just trying to manage that expectation.

(11:26):
so we would say that, after the tenders have come back in, It would normally take betweenthree and four weeks to review the tenders, because the QS has to review them first, And
check that they all are.
like with like, and sometimes some clarifications and that has to happen because therewill be discrepancies.

(11:46):
then the QS will advise the clients of this is the lowest tender.
However, they're not alike for this reason.
And then there's a conversation about who is the preferred contract.
It's not always the lowest cost as we've discussed before.
And then there's the value engineering.
with the preferred bidder, that's about four to six weeks, realistically, but you'd betrying to stick to the four weeks, then at that point where you've chosen the contractor,

(12:12):
you're getting the contract signed for any contractor to really get onto site.
It's not them that they're there the next day.
they've got a number of jobs.
So, from the point of getting your tenders in to getting on site can sometimes be two tothree months sometimes, I don't know what your experience is like on your project, Tanya.
Yeah, I think it was two to three months.
But sometimes that goes into the tender process too.

(12:34):
They're going to say when they're available.
they might have won a tender in the middle of that process.
And that happens often.
So the person that you think is your preferred tender and they're juggling, it's like aconstant juggling of balls.
you think that they're available for in line with your preferred start date.
And then suddenly they're like, well, actually, I thought I could start in September, butnow it's really going to be January.

(12:57):
And whilst that's not a long time, in the broad scheme of life, you know, when you've beengoing through this process for so long, because talked about how long it takes to get to
this point.
sometimes decisions are made on the basis of, we're not really happy to wait untilJanuary, you know?
especially if you're paying rent somewhere else.
that's a huge part of the process for clients now is trying to figure out no matter whereyou are in the country, So when they get this project timeline, the project is going to

(13:23):
take nine to 12 months.
Let's be honest, that's the reality.
where are we going to live?
So you said it would be probably six weeks after the tender analysis is done by the QS.
There's a back and forth between the design team and the builder.
think you're going to go with you sign the contracts and then it could be at least two,three months right?
Yeah, during all of that, kind of hand in hand with the tender package, the buildingcontrol drawings would have been, prepared.

(13:49):
so building control drawings would be ready to be submitted pre commencement.
So the BCMS system is one where you upload everything that demonstrates that the projectcomplies with the building regulations.
And that's where the builder is.
You sign the builder.
You have all of the architect and the clients and everyone has to accept their roles.

(14:11):
And then you have the commencement date.
But you only can submit that between seven and 14 days prior to the official commencementdate.
And technically, lots of things get triggered with that commencement date.
you have to be really, aware of that in terms of insurances and
all those kinds of things.
the BCMS system can sometimes be frustrating and it doesn't work out and everybody doesn'taccept their roles and you have to go through the process again.

(14:33):
It's really annoying.
I wish someone would fix that bit of it, but.
And tell me, the BCMS everyone has to do, even if they didn't have to apply for planning?
You have to do commencement, yes, even if you didn't have to apply for planning.
and the BCMS as well.
Yes, you must do a commencement notice even if you didn't.
Okay, and what about B-car?
Tell us about that.
So B-car I remember it being this huge new thing that was introduced and it was a lot toget for the whole industry to get their heads around at the time.

(15:02):
It was introduced really as a reaction, to lots of issues that had come up during the lastboom when standards, slipped in terms of construction.
And we had...
particularly fire issues in apartment buildings, it was really an extra layer of,compliance and statutory paperwork and checking to ensure that some of the things that

(15:24):
happened didn't happen again.
So in my experience for the normal one-off project, most clients do opt out of thatprocess.
It isn't that you don't comply with the building regulations if you're opting out, youmust comply with building regulations and every architect is going to detail and ensure
your details, your house, your steps, all of the different things.

(15:45):
the actual fabric of your building, all comply with the different parts of the buildingregulations.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's a good explainer.
Cause a friend asked me about it and they were just wanted to make sure that opting out ofit was the correct thing to do.
So
It's more normal now and some of the much higher end projects, you know, we would do it.

(16:05):
But it doesn't tend to be normal on a standard project.
Okay.
All right.
So then you're on site.
So from the tender to agreeing to the builder, we're like six weeks, then you're on sitecould be two, three months.
And then talk to me about during that process, you are starting to develop theconstruction drawings, right?

(16:26):
Correct, yes.
So we always talk about this delivered as designed.
you won't as part of the tender package have setting out drawings, So you're doing settingout drawings.
And not every project is gonna have setting out drawings.
but this is the optimum to make sure that, it's delivered in line with the intention.
so the setting art is basically the measurements for the block layers to then go on siteand build in line with because there can be lots of ins and outs, not just always a

(16:55):
straight block and things like the services.
So, your storage, your drainage, your pop ups, all that sort of stuff, and then you'd bekind of working forward.
So at your very first kickoff meeting, we'll have an agenda and we'll talk about thethings to have the site set up well,
And then the builder will say, well, I need this for this time.

(17:17):
So you're always trying to work ahead of what the contractor needs.
And most contractors will look for a good set of selling out draws.
Okay.
do you constitute setting out drawings as the same as construction set drawings or What'sthe difference?
No, so a setting out drawing is, like your ground floor plan, but stripped out ofeverything.
it has just the dimensions if you don't have a fully set out in terms of setting outdrawings, a door up could be in the wrong place.

(17:42):
You know, the builder might make a decision.
I'm going to just do that three blocks to there rather than two and a half blocks.
And it might really tie in with something down the line.
that's really critical to work and the contractor can't see that, but the architect knowsthat for this whole piece, particularly with more complex kind of houses, we would always
have interior detailing tied into the architectural drawings really from an early stage,because we think about how the inside works.

(18:08):
But if you give a setting out drawn is more dimension than a normal drawing because
You know, you wouldn't put all those dimensions onto a normal ground floor plan becausethere's a lot of other information there.
So you're stripping it off to be just about the block work and the pop up positions, whichis for your toilet.
So you're trying to make sure that at that point, what your bathroom lights are, you know.

(18:30):
Yeah, people are surprised by how quickly they have to make those decisions,
Yeah, you do need to really know your bathroom layout very early there's some adjustmentcan happen.
Okay, so you have your setting out drawings and then your construction set drawings come
Yes, so your tender drawings become the basis of your construction set drawings.

(18:50):
So you update them.
You look through the whole set.
You issue the construction set.
from my experience, like you said, the requests for information from the builders, that'sa formal process in which as you get to site and maybe there's a specific detail to do
with probably the steel or something.
They're like, I need to understand this junction better, give me more information.

(19:11):
And a lot of things kind of develop as you go because
So I think it's really normal for that to be reactive.
and so much can't be anticipated.
And it's not that your architect hasn't done the right work.
It's just that you really don't know until you've, you hit the roadblock.
100 % and it's part of the process, it's how it works and that's it should work.

(19:32):
So the contractor knows what he needs to know and you can't describe everything on adrawing ever, it's not possible.
So I mean sometimes construction drawings can actually be hand sketches, know, dependingon the process.
if you're working with an architect, that's the way it would work.
And sometimes the client's not always aware of all the requests some of those happenbetween the contractor and the architect and their job is to just make sure it's done

(19:58):
correctly.
the client doesn't always have to know all of those interrupts, but they're alwayshappening.
Phone calls and the,
contractor maybe wants to change a specification choice, If they're changing from yourspecification, it's the architect's role to make sure that still complies with everything
because this all then forms part of
the preliminary health and safety file, It's basically a book of all the materials that gointo the building at the very end of the project.

(20:23):
So that if something has to be addressed in the future, the client has this book thatshows all that stuff.
And tell me when you're doing all of the initial setting out drawings and the constructionset drawings and steel is being finalized.
At what point usually do the decisions on the bathroom layouts come?
that's a really difficult question.

(20:44):
I guess it depends on the size, right?
Like if you're building a house from scratch, it's completely different versus anextension.
Earlier than people think.
So I mean, I think I made a joke about this recently that we still haven't made thesedecisions on our own house, I mean, I always encourage obviously there's an interior
designer there really driving that.

(21:05):
But if there's no interior designer, we do get involved in the interiors and the projectsthat we're involved in.
But we would always
Encourage the client to have thought about this quite early.
So quite quickly, month two on site.
Listen, you need to dive into your bathrooms and you need to see showrooms, you need toget a sense of whether you're going to get what you want, because there will be a PC sum

(21:28):
there.
And then you go to the showroom and you find that
Hmm.
I don't like anything in any of the showrooms.
Yeah.
And that does happen.
mean, we have lovely clients who went through that process and really, really tried tofind something that was, I'm to say rock their boat.
OK.
They just couldn't find it.
And so in the end, I had to just say, look, I feel you're never going to be happy unlessyou consider the bespoke or something akin to that.

(21:59):
In the end, I directed them to something that helped them.
It was not off the it was not bespoke.
It wasn't off the shelf, but it was somewhere in between.
There's some companies in the UK where they do alike bespoke vanities but they're not ascostly as pure bespoke.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
And it kind of helped everything else come together.

(22:22):
So the earlier you do it, basically the better.
Yeah.
And yeah, especially vanities and it really adds up quickly when you're then looking atstone and brassware and then you forget about the shower screen and the nice shower tray
and it really adds up.
When you look at everything and of course, we do tend to immediately identify the mostexpensive thing in the showroom.

(22:43):
Absolutely.
Okay, so you make your decisions on your bathroom layouts really early on to do thepop-ups.
if you're not working with an interior designer in terms of making your decision onbathroom layout, you may look at a plan and go, yeah, and then you go to three different
bathroom showrooms and they will all have a different opinion about what that layoutshould be.

(23:04):
a lot of clients come back and say, well, this bathroom person thought it should be likethis and this bathroom person thought...
And it's quite confusing and it can be a bit overwhelming and you're like, okay, which oneis it?
And we have had a situation again recently enough where we actually changed the line ofthe wall between this particular bathroom and a bedroom just about when the foundations

(23:27):
were in, we were able to adjust the line of the wall to allow for.
the shower to indented a little bit, which made an improvement to the sense of space inthe bathroom.
So you're always playing things off and you can make those adjustments inside that canreally feed in positively to the end results, you know.
Yeah.
And then architect on site will always be helping you.

(23:47):
make those adjustments, you know, I think that sometimes
People can be afraid, you know, once they're on site because we all are horrified aboutthe thoughts of variations, right?
Let's explain what a variation is.
Okay, a variation is basically where you vary from what's in the bill of quantities and onthe tender drawings.
Okay, so something that varies from what was price for.

(24:08):
Yeah, it's an extra usually.
Yeah, so often they're extra something that isn't anticipated or something that comes up,but it can be where you want to make a change.
so people will resist that very heavily because they think, just the costs are going tobuild up.
But sometimes you have to have a balanced approach about thinking into the future, theimpact of the cost of this relative to the positive ongoing impact it will have.

(24:31):
Even in our own house, I think I had it my store this week.
I'm introducing a window after the windows are
orders.
Wow.
And I think it's good to know or to give permission to people to question things or comeup with things as they're on site because it's like you're an architect and on your own
house, you've added a window after the order's been placed.

(24:52):
And I think like you're saying people are scared or horrified.
I think not only of the cost, but also of seeming like they're doing the wrong thing orthey made a mistake.
Yeah, I get what you're saying.
And I think I would encourage people to think that as you're going along, you can seethings sometimes.
And I'm doing this a long time.
And I still I did think about the time, but there was a really driving force, which was aboundary that I had no control over.

(25:15):
but on balance, when I was in the space felt that
the glow of the light was going to way outweigh that.
So, yes, give yourself permission to.
keep your eyes open and see the things and really relatively speaking those costs aremarginal compared to the overall.
Yeah.
And in the case of working with, the old fabric of a building, sometimes when you'redoing, a period property, when you're looking at the runs for services, that was something

(25:41):
we found that was so tricky that really just depends on, the direction that joists arerunning and the space you have and boxing out things and, building out walls.
And you have to iterate as you go.
There's a lot you can think of a joinery can help conceal some of these changes and weirdoffsets.
Like obviously we want all the lines to be perfect, but you know, sometimes you're workingwithin an existing footprint and you have to rejig things or you didn't realize that

(26:07):
really what you wanted is bigger than what's there.
There's always, think interiors can come as a solution to conceal or make good use ofawkward things that
crop up at the construction stage that you need to do for better function.
Yeah, and you're always kind of there's an interplay between all those things all thetime.
And an architect and interior designer are thinking of that interplay and they're able to,pivot to keep the same intention, but meeting all of the conflicting needs, the service

(26:37):
runs, for everything meeting a proper junctions and not having step downs and you'retrying to think about the finished package, you know,
I always say, a house, whether it be into a protective structure, it's a real machine ofso many parts that come together to really make it function properly.
Yeah.
Okay, so we were kind of talking about foundations and some of the things that happen whenyou're pouring your screen like finalizing bathroom layouts for drainage points.

(27:12):
I suppose it'd be measuring windows So obviously getting to the point where all the blockwork is in place is a really exciting moment in any project because getting windows
ordered is kind of critical piece and builders will want to get to that as fast as theycan.
And again, we touched on the last day where we adjusted a bay window location to properly,
catch a view that was a really special view.
So, be open to slight adjustments on that or when you see block work up and you see awindow in place and you think about, where's my TV going?

(27:37):
You know, at that point, if it's so the construction method can be different.
OK, so we often do pumped cavities, but you can do installation and the cavity built asyou go.
But it's still adjustable.
It's not, you know, the end of the world to
to move things.
Obviously, if you spot it earlier before a head goes in, that's a lot easier.
know, so when a up starts to rise up before you get the head in, it's easier to make thatadjustment than when a head is in, which is the lintel over the window.

(28:05):
So once you've all of your ups in place, prior to that, you would if it's a PC sum, havedone the costing.
And I tried to do it hand in hand with the tender process.
so that we've got all our window quotations sitting there so we know where we're at.
And you're not always just using one window company.
That's the other thing.
know, when you get the prices in and it's above, say, even where the cost plan was interms of costs, people might want, say, for example, steel windows, right?

(28:32):
You price those and they're just like, you know, off the Richter scale.
They're beautiful, but they cost for it, right?
But You don't have to have the one window company supplying everything.
So
front and back of the house or if you're doing glazed extension, old windows versus new.
So we're doing that, for example.
you could have one joinery shop piece.
and then everything else is a more standard window company.

(28:55):
Or you have one like really special window.
we have three different suppliers for our own house, you know?
So where we're kind of trying to save, we're using a slightly lower door, which is morecost effective.
And then we have another supplier doing a big frameless window and then
we have one main supplier for all the rest of windows, but that can be the same for anyproject.

(29:17):
you could make a choice that if it's a part of the house, you're not going to see so muchthat you go and before you even do the block work you've dropped down the window height to
allow for this kind of more cost efficient window in those areas.
And then the bits that's really important, you've gone taller and you're using moreexpensive windows.
so the window measuring point is like a really key one.
And again, different window companies will have different lead-ins.

(29:41):
So, you know, I think ours are something crazy.
Yeah, 20 weeks, something like that.
Yeah, no, think it's off that order.
Yeah.
Whereas some of the window companies are 12 weeks, you know, and it can vary and thearchitect will always kind of be aware of that.
And then the contractor really does a slowdown point in sight then at that point whenyou're waiting for windows, because it's only really when windows go in that proper first

(30:07):
thing happens.
They can do some chasing.
So they will often
do the chasing for the first fix before the windows come in.
But really that's the point where everything starts to speed up a bit when the windows goin.
Right.
OK.
And then ahead of the first fix.
So the first fix is everything that's going on in the walls, behind the walls, mechanicaland electrical.

(30:29):
So you can do your own research and go to the bathroom showrooms way earlier than youthink.
Like even with the window tender, your architect can recommend some places that they'vegone to, or maybe there's a house next door that got renovated that have lovely windows.
can ask them, you can go to those showrooms and you can get in touch and send on yourarchitect's window schedule and just get ahead of the curve on getting some of these

(30:54):
quotes, because the more information you have,
before that contract is agreed, the closer your PC sums will be to what you actually wantrather than waiting till the floors need to be ordered to go and choose them.
Like really that should be done earlier because the QS's estimate may not be what you hadin your mind or on your Pinterest board.
100 % Tanya, 100%.

(31:15):
I encourage clients to do things, the tender stages of time, and I'm kind of reallyencouraging them to start having conversations with kitchen companies
Yeah, that's the other big one bathrooms and kitchen.
Yeah, because they're expensive.
there's a long lead in.
Some kitchen companies, they'll have booked in their entire year by the time it's March orFebruary.
And depending on the size of the kitchen company, they all run different amounts ofprojects.

(31:40):
So yeah, it's good to get a set and get your quotes as well for your kitchen.
Exactly.
the sooner you have that, the better because otherwise you're on site and you're like,wow, wouldn't it be great if that that like door opening was a little bit taller?
Could we do that?
And everyone's like, yeah, you can.
And no one's going to stop you from spending the money.
You know, like the QS isn't going to be there holding your hand every step of the way.

(32:01):
And if you haven't costed for the kitchen you want and the bathrooms you want, it's tooeasy to say yes to the little variations on site that are
amazing edits that you're making, but like they all add up.
They're like, well that, you know, we'll send over the costs later.
And you're like, okay, but you fell in love with it.
And then the little things add up.
And if you then you're like, okay, we have to finalize the kitchen.

(32:23):
And then there's an extra five or 10 grand that got eaten up by things on site that youdidn't even think of.
Sounds like you're speaking from experience time.
Luckily, knew what my kitchen would cost, but I still ran into the snafus of saying yes toall the little things on site.
I said don't be afraid to make changes.
You don't want to be making a little change every week or every time.

(32:43):
you can't go to the full spec for each thing.
You have to know that their sacrifices, like, you know, it would have been great to dofull fireplace refurbishments for all the fireplaces in our house, but it just like, it
wasn't feasible.
And I was like, you know what?
This is always something that can be done later.
it's just going to be one of those things that you have to park.
However, the cornice repairs, you know, insane costs to repair them, but when else are yougoing to do them?

(33:05):
It's incredibly dirty, messy work.
You would ruin everything in the room.
And like, when are you going to move out of that room and have, you know, everything outof it?
It's really difficult.
So I think you have to make these trade-offs.
Yeah, it's true.
for example, a situation where the existing roof was staying and then, there was theopportunity.
Well, now is the time that the felt is OK, but it's been there for 15, 20 years.

(33:31):
It's going to degrade.
Now is the opportunity to do it or else you never do it.
it's.
making that choice about, this is something that I don't do now.
It's really difficult to do later.
Or I park it like you're saying, and you can do it later.
you can leave out your fire.
if you got to intend to have a beautiful gas stove, We're doing that.
it's a wood burning stove.
we're doing all of the block work to allow for the flu to feed in in the future.

(33:55):
We'll create the hope.
But the.
fire itself, they're, considerable cost.
Yeah.
Will follow in maybe someday.
some of those things are surprising.
The kind of things that, that you can't future proof.
Like I think most people would assume adding a fireplace later is a very difficult thingthat you can't phase, but that's when you, if you ask those questions and you're like,

(34:16):
could that wait, or could I delay that?
And some people are like, yeah, you could get another 10 years out of that roof, but it'snot until you ask those questions and push people really, that, that you can get those,
those honest assessments, because obviously every architect will want to.
to do everything to the best spec.
you have to push back and say, okay, which one can I push out?
Yeah, and you have those conversations that value engineering stage and, you know, some ofthe choices that you might make at that stage might not be aligned with exactly what you

(34:45):
really want to look like, but you're you're willing to compromise because, saving is worthit.
Okay, we do need to run through through the rest, to get to the first fix mechanical andelectrical that requires a whole bunch of interfacing between the plumbing and the
electricians teams and bringing in any previous BER assessment you've done and overlayingthat onto the construction drawings really.

(35:08):
you have mech and elect drawings.
And that is when electrical like
lighting plans that, you know, people can actually visualize.
It's like where your spotlights going to go.
Where are these, what are different types of lights you're going to have?
Where are you going to have switches?
All of that.
That's when that comes into play.
So those are other decisions that, need to be made.
And, you know, if you have an interior designer, they might be helping sometimesarchitects do them.

(35:32):
Sometimes the client can do, can do them
in a rough way and give it to somebody else to clean up.
Yeah, so it can be done all of the four mentioned.
I always try to have an electrical drawn done as part of the tender package.
It's not going to be the final electrical.
And I've made the mistake of not doing that in the past.
You learn from your mistakes.
So I think that it's worth doing because you get a sense because everything can add up,So.

(35:56):
It won't be the final thing.
Like you're best to have your electrical drawing.
You revise it hand in hand with the kitchen company feeding in at this point.
So before you're doing your first fix, really, you kind of would like to know who yourkitchen company are.
It would be best.
It doesn't always happen that way, Tanya, but it would be best because then it means thekitchen company will sometimes have suggestions that you might anticipate that can really

(36:19):
add to the overall ambience of the finished product.
So it's great to get a first fix.
package from the kitchen company.
that's quite early on in the project that you're kind of, okay, now I'm deciding on mykitchen company, you know?
So then it's always a good idea to walk the site, with the contractor even, with thearchitect first too, because things that look like they work on the drawings, like that

(36:41):
switch there, when you go on site, you kind of can see sometimes, okay,
I don't want to cut into an architrave there.
So we're maybe going to have to move it to here.
The store opens, there's things, there are adjustments that can be made, you know?
It's an important stage, if you've done enough work early on to kind of know, okay, I'm tohave this number of circuits.
Circuits are a switch that will turn on a number of lights on that switch.

(37:05):
So say for example, every
good interior designer will tell you it's best to layer your lighting.
So you have your overhead lighting, you have your lamps, you have your wall lights andthey all are in different circuits so you can create different layers of mood.
And so one interior designer I've worked with and she calls it the find the back of yourearring setting.
You know, if you've dropped your earring that you can have like very bright.

(37:29):
But you very rarely use that actually.
And the more I've been doing lighting, the more I think that really overhead lightingcould be gone altogether the amount of times you actually turn it on.
Yeah, absolutely.
At this stage, you're going to be finalizing the locations of switches and sockets for themost part.
Now, until the wall is slabbed and plastered, there can be some flexibility.

(37:52):
And if you're waiting for your windows to come in, there is a period of time in which youcan change things, even though the electrician will curse you.
make them your best friend.
Honestly, they're one of the best people to have your best friend.
Different electricians will be different about that, Tanya, in my experience.
Some electricians will be like, yes, OK, we'll do that little tweak and they won't put acharge against it.

(38:12):
some electricians will hit you for every little.
So it really depends on the electrician.
mean, I have witnessed.
serious variations where changes happen.
if you can walk it and try and have it pinned down as much as possible.
But yeah, electricians are amazing and yes, make them your best friend.
every subcontractor really.

(38:33):
And at this stage also is when you need to have ordered your sanitary wear part of it.
first fix for people who don't know what that means, it's the items that are going behindthe wall.
And sometimes a lot of sanitary wear companies, especially the larger ones, they willseparate those items for you.
And they might have different lead times even on their websites that say first fix items.

(38:55):
three weeks, but then the actual plates and the fittings on the outside, that might be alonger lead time and that doesn't matter as much.
So you just have to check with the plumber and the builder what exactly they want by whenyou're ordering to make sure it's going to arrive in time.
Correct.
I guess to flesh that out a little bit, first fix item, say in a shower, most people willwant to have, a thermostatic valve behind the wall.

(39:18):
So you'll remember the old fashioned showers.
you'd have a box on the wall.
Okay.
And I mean, that still happens and you people still use those because they're morecost-effective.
There's some cool models also that are like exposed now, which they're like almostindustrial chic.
Yeah, exactly.
So I mean, and we can be more cost efficient.
So it's all about budget.
Right.
But, know, most of our projects, we tend to be using the conceals, thermostatic valves andthe plumbers need to know that they need that first stage.

(39:44):
They need to have made provision for it and then know exactly what that is.
That's another reason why choosing your sanitary wear early.
And it does sometimes feel for clients, you know, you're just on site and.
The builders not going to maybe pursue first day, but I as an architect will try andencourage, those kinds of sorting early.
Yeah.
And a big one for first fix.

(40:05):
If you're having, wall hung toilets with the concealed cistern, you need those ordered.
But if you're having a toilet, you know, that just has a pedestal and sits on, its own,then that can be a second fix item.
And a lot of people don't know that.
and they're like, yeah, I just want the wall hung clean look, but they, don't realize likethere's a big impact structurally.
Yeah, and part of the first fix of course is, you know, the controls for your shower.

(40:29):
it's a really good idea to think about putting that, separate to where your shower is thatwhen you walk in, you can control the shower and then, you know, it's nice and warm when
you step into it.
okay.
guess you, get your windows and you do your first fix mechanical and electrical.
Then how long does that usually take?
I know this is like asking how long a piece of string is, but

(40:49):
there's a lot of stuff that has to happen in between then, you know, the second fix isjust to explain that's when you actually put in your toilets, you put in your shower head,
you bet your doors.
And when you start putting down your floors,
pretty much like everything that people think a renovation is.
that starts about two and a half months to three months before you're finished probably.

(41:13):
if you think about a year long build, that's nine months into the process.
So before that, there's all of the other stuff.
There's the first fix, a lot of that is the mechanical, electrical, the wiring,
all of the ducting for the mechanical ventilation, all of your routing for your sanitaryroutes of your soil pipes, your drainage, all of that stuff that's kind of hidden.

(41:40):
That really is the machine bit of the house.
It's your insulation,
say you have an existing floor like in your projects, Tonya, it's insulating that it'salso maybe dealing with the fire proofing element of it's a three story building.
You know, there is consideration there.
there's a lot of just the guts of the house happening.

(42:01):
And then, of course, plasterboarding, your air tightness membranes, your vapour controllayer, which again is an air tightness element, you know, underneath your roof.
all of that's happening and then you get to the point where the second fix is really thefinishing element.
And it's quite chaotic.
Cause like you said, it's like three months before, but there's all these things that needto happen.

(42:24):
You know, the radiators are being fitted, all the switches and sockets and then the lightfittings and joinery and things like architraves and of course the tile before any of the
sanitary ware.
There's a lot of trades on site.
before that, it's less chaotic.
you'll have one tree in there at a time sort of almost.
But when it comes to the end, it becomes really very busy.

(42:47):
And I think clients expected to be like that the whole way through.
But it's not really, you know.
Yeah, and that's why they think I think like, oh, we're kind of stalled.
We're waiting for this to happen.
We're waiting for that to happen.
But those are the key moments to make sure that everyone who's coming in later is ontrack, that there's no delays, that they have everything they need from you, that you've
checked in, that, you know, if deposits need to be paid to meet a deadline, that that'sbeen paid, that people are interfacing with each other if they need to.

(43:14):
Like if one supplier, you know, we have a stained
glass fan light that's going in, they need to talk to the people who are making the frontdoor and the frame for that because it's being rebated into one, to the other.
Really making sure all these conversations are happening and an interior designer will dothat for you or the architect sometimes does it.
But there's a lot of gray areas where sometimes clients need to take the reins becauseotherwise no one's going to do it.

(43:39):
Yeah, I suppose it depends.
It does depend.
And an architect's going to try and cover off those conversations.
you're going to try and raise them in site meetings.
And then if separate site meetings need to happen, they happen.
that's often the case where you're meeting separately to try and figure out some detail.
You know, sometimes it can happen online.
Yeah.
And yeah, so then we have our second fix and once all that's coordinated and done, it'ssnagging.

(44:05):
so the second fix, Tanya, just to elaborate a bit, there's a lot of differentsubcontractors working together and, probably at that point you're having more frequent
meetings.
That tends to be the case.
So like we would always say, as an architect, you generally through a project havebiweekly meetings, at certain points that extends a bit as is needed.
And towards the end, because there's more coordination of.

(44:26):
And there's more need for the eyes there.
find that as an interior designer to see.
Yeah, tiling especially.
I would be there every day if I could.
Yeah, because you can do tiling layouts, but you'll see good interior designers will setout, to give an example of the pattern and have that conversation, your main contractor
can't always have your tiler there at a site meeting.

(44:46):
They're busy working on multiple sites.
So you might have to pop in and it's best to have the conversation early.
So
At that point, it is best to have more interaction on site with professionals even if youdon't have a professional, just to start to notice the things junctions, things like that,
things where they meet each other, you can, anticipate or see something that could gowrong and try and make sure it doesn't go wrong.

(45:10):
Even with all the drawings in the world, that still happens, right?
Yeah.
And sometimes what's real on site is just ends up being slightly different than what wason these drawings, which are based on surveys that happened before.
nothing is truer than the site dimension.
Exactly.
So then you're coming to the end of the project and it's a very intense time and it's avery stressful time and clients have decision fatigue but all the decisions are made at

(45:37):
that time, but they're trying to get in and they're really
just want into the house.
I really understand that.
there's sometimes a misconception that completion is when everything is finished, that youwalk in and it's all completely perfect.
But the actual definition of practical completion is such that the works can be occupiedsafely by the clients.

(46:02):
It means that sometimes landscape can be parked because of budgets.
But, landscaping often is not complete and even sometimes hard landscaping, being patio,paving, etc.
And so it is the case that clients are kind of thinking, OK, it's not finished.
there's no way we could.
But you can move in before.
everything's complete, complete.

(46:23):
But it has to be such that can be reasonably lived in by the client.
We have a client moved in before the kitchen's in because it's been a big delay onkitchen.
mean, I wouldn't necessarily advise that on that case.
The clients were happy to and
any good contractor will be doing their own snagging anyway coming up to the end snaggingis basically picking up the things that need to be addressed by the contractor.

(46:47):
So obviously there are bigger and smaller snags so there can be big things like I don'tknow say your stained glass window beautifully refurbished and there's a crack in one of
them and that needs to be addressed right.
And these things can happen because somebody walks in with a ladder
Yeah.
Our stained glass guy was like, I'm not putting that in until every single trade is gone.
Yeah, because these things do happen.

(47:08):
they're they're fixable, but it's really frustrating for clients, who wants to move intotheir perfect house
And it isn't such that all the snags are complete before a client moves into a house.
You would like for, a good attempt to be made.
and obviously the house to be cleaned.
But snagging and the completion of snags can go on for some time after a client is movedin.

(47:30):
And then you have
all of the process of handover, which would be the health and safety plan, which is wherethe contractor is to put together a whole file of all of the different materials, the heat
pump, all of the different mechanical and electrical systems that go into the house.
And that's quite a large and it's got a number of files.

(47:53):
that
can take a long time to put together but that is something that is technically requiredunder the law, know, under the health and safety regulations.
So.
It's something to ask for because it is really, really useful to have for a client if inthe future they're doing works and they're like, what material was used there?

(48:14):
It's there, you know?
And then the architect's also signing off to show that they complied with all with theplanning if it was required.
that's the architects sorts of compliance with planning and building regulations.
And so they would only do those when they're confident that everything has been completedto the level at which they can sign those.

(48:36):
And then in the contract, there's always the defects liability period.
So that tends to be a year
after completion and the contract there's normally retention.
Retention is normally five percent of the contract sum and at practical completion half ofthat's released so two and a half percent and then the architect will go back after a year

(48:58):
to see if there's any defects and so defects can be like see if some movement cracks and
you know, obviously not every mark and the pence work because that wouldn't be reasonable.
You know, it's the stuff that's come up that the contract will go back and address.
So say, you know, if there was a little bit of a leak, sometimes these things can happenand more ordinarily than not, that's come up earlier on.

(49:22):
And, you know, you're working with good contractors who will come and address obviouslythat as it comes up prior to the defects liability period being over.
And then once
everything's addressed on that.
So it's another list that's formed at that point.
Once the contractor has addressed everything on that list, then the final retention isreleased.
Okay, yeah, that's good to know.

(49:43):
So you have a little bit of leverage to cover you there.
Amazing.
Well, we have, of course, always talked more than we intended to.
There's just so much to uncover.
And I think a lot of times people don't understand what an architect does and why you needthem.
But I think these these two episodes have shown so much of what goes behind the scenes.
And it's probably overwhelming for somebody listening

(50:04):
Sounds a little dull Tanya,
Yeah, but I think it's better to hear it and start getting familiar with these termsbefore you undergo it because then things aren't a surprise and you can be better
prepared.
You can speak the language especially if you work full time and you're trying to wrap yourhead around this whole other industry that works in its own unique ways, at least you

(50:26):
understand the flow and the way the information goes.
who does what and what can you be doing in these lull periods and just leveraging theexpectations on timelines and responsibilities should make things a little less stressful.
Tanya, you talked about communicating what each professional does.
it's kind of like you go to the doctor and the doctor doesn't explain to you exactly whatthey're doing behind the scenes.

(50:50):
Yeah.
Good professional is kind of getting on with their job.
And, you know, you should be able to trust that they are doing a lot of work on yourbehalf that you don't necessarily need to know about.
But I do think that sometimes we're really bad as a profession at communicating what isthe value that we bring.
Yeah.
And I guess it's pulling a lot of disparate elements together to really meet the visionthat you have at the start.

(51:15):
And it's almost so multifaceted and complex that it's really hard to synopsize that in,you know, one sentence even.
And I often find that it's only at the end of a project that a client will go.
OK, yeah.
now and I do ask sometimes I don't do it enough for testimonials and they even find ithard to communicate the value that they just say well the house wouldn't be the way it is

(51:39):
without you but you know it's very hard to communicate that
we've pulled the curtain back a bit and shown a lot of what goes on behind the scenes.
people shouldn't be afraid to ask like, you know, what are you working on?
Like, what are some of the things that are going on?
Because sometimes it's good for them to know what you're working on, because sometimesthey think silence means you're not working on something.

(51:59):
And I think the construction and
the whole fit out industry, let's say, including interior designers works very differentlyto a lot of office culture and a lot of clients work in those fields.
And the way people communicate is different.
The way projects are managed is different.
it's very fluid.
and it's not, it's not as documented in a way.

(52:21):
So it's good for the corporate professional.
to understand the way things are done.
Work is still being done and you just need to know the place to look for it.
I agree, Tanya, it's interesting that you say that it's it's not linear.
it flows and adds and We talked about, that period in a project when a professional theinterior designer and architect are working together and the clients just coming to meet

(52:45):
and sign off and stuff.
And they're fantastic projects, you know, where,
they're just signing off they don't have to go and do the shopping.
The shopping is done by the interior designer and the architect are coordinating togetherto pull it all together.
those are the high end products and they're really, really wonderful to work on it.
It means the client who really doesn't have the time to go out to, you know, a showroombecause it is really time consuming, know,

(53:08):
That's why it's two other people's entire jobs.
Sometimes friends will be like, God, like this is really hard.
Like, how am I supposed to find the time to do it?
And I'm like, why do you think like interior design is a profession?
Like, why do you think an architect is a profession?
Yeah, because I mean, I think that people do do their projects without those, but I thinkthey are incredibly brave and incredibly skillful to be able to pull it off.

(53:34):
And hats off to people who do do it.
it's totally doable.
And I know a lot of times people have to make the concessions because they can't affordit.
But sometimes if you can't afford it, it is worth its weight in the results you can get inthe stress that it takes off of you and the time that it takes you away from doing work
that makes you money or spending time with your family or just not being stressed.

(53:55):
So I think sometimes it's a conscious decision that may not.
have everything weighed up.
And that's what I'm trying to do with these two episodes is really explain to people thatthe value of an architect and what they can do for you.
Yeah, okay.
And I hope that I've communicated some of that.
The entire weight of the profession is on your shoulders,
That's about the long time.
Well, I mean, think listening to this alone will make a lot of people's brains explode.

(54:18):
And I think that should be enough to be like, OK, I need to pay the architect.
Let's build that into the budget because I don't want to deal with everything she talkedabout.
And it's funny because I'm thinking about, you saying at what stage does this happen?
And, you know, I've been on so many projects and it all becomes kind of you just work anddo it.
As I say, it's not linear.
You work and do what's needed on the product at the time that's needed.

(54:41):
Yeah.
and, you know, people could say, well, why can you not do it way ahead?
why can't it not be this structured?
And it just isn't because there's so many different parties coming together to do thisthing
Well, I think having an interior designer on top of an architect is the ideal scenariobecause The architect there a lot of their work is in the earlier stage and then a lot of

(55:01):
the interior designers work is kind of you know from first fix to second fix so it's notweighted evenly throughout the project and if you have both of those professionals a Lot
of the decisions for the next stage are then being anticipated by the interior designer
Cause they're like, okay, we need to sign up on your joinery package and then you're notlike, you're not playing catch up because the architect has asked you all the decisions

(55:23):
that are key for that first stage.
And then the interior designers looking ahead at the next stage.
And that's the ideal way to do it.
And it is worth noting that different architects will get involved in those things.
You know, we as a company, we do get involved in that, but not to the same level as in thetears.
can, but we have prepare back from that because it is a whole other animal.

(55:45):
And some architecture practices will offer a full service.
yeah, they'll have in-house.
that would be a separate fee, of course, because you can't, but we would incorporate moreconsideration of that element as part of our standard fee simply because I suppose we love
it.
But it is the ideal scenario to have, for a client who particularly is on a time-versus tohave both and have them.

(56:07):
actually believe, and I've said that I think in the last episode, the best products arewhere they're there from the start, actually.
Yeah, I agree completely.
I'm currently running a group where instead of having one-on-one access to me as aninterior designer, I'm serving several people undergoing renovations at the same time.
And a lot of people were like, I'm too early on in the process for this.

(56:30):
there's no such thing.
There's literally no such thing as too early because there's so many things to wrap yourhead around, like what things cost, what's achievable.
What fits into your style so much
I was meant to do a live last week And we ended up chatting.
one of the questions that someone had asked was about an architect, when do you engage anarchitect even?

(56:51):
And, know, we have been brought in to look at sites or a house.
You know, because.
That is actually because an architect is going to see a house in a different way to howyou see it.
they're going to see potential or see things that you don't necessarily see yourself.
So, you know, it's the same sort of thing.
It's never too early to bring a professional involved.

(57:11):
Yeah, and I think if you have an architect that you dream to work with, there's lead inand then also they can come to see a site with you.
Sometimes you might agree a fee.
Like we paid an architect once to come and view a property with us and he was telling us acompletely different scope of what that might cost versus the surveyor.
Because the architect was thinking from a design point of view.

(57:33):
The surveyor was thinking from a
builder's finish spec handed over point of view.
And you know, lot of times if you're hiring an architect, you want the beautiful vision.
it was really good to see that discrepancy and think, okay, well that is what we actuallywant to do.
this house doesn't make sense.
And if you love a specific architect, if you bring Sarah out to a house, you might see itand be like, it's not going to fulfill the vision you want, but you might see something

(57:55):
else, which is a ruin, but you see the vision in it and you see the bones of it.
through a certain perspective and you can influence a purchase decision, you know?
Yeah, 100%.
And it's interesting, as you were saying, the budget thing, always,
I genuinely think that when people show you their inspiration.
they're asking about, square foot rates and they're showing you exteriors they like,they're also showing you interiors they like.

(58:17):
And generally they're informed by having a lot of panelling, beautiful fitted furniture,really nice interior detailing.
And those are the things that all add up to cost in terms of percentile the costs.
with the fabric is marginal compared to all of that stuff that actually ends up making thehouse be the thing that you were looking for through all the images.

(58:40):
I would also say that I fundamentally believe that that stuff can follow in, but it's agood idea to have a thought about it.
So if you engage an interior designer and you pull out the package, at least you know thespace has been designed to take for it in the future.
you're making sure that the stuff, the bones that we talked about in the first, theproportions, the way SPS flows, the way the light comes in, that's all done right.

(59:03):
And then I would still plan for the stuff.
It can input, you said, Tanya, knowing about early can influence the design of it, youknow, in terms of a wall pulling here or.
allowing for certain more height here
Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on and walking us through what it means tobring a project to site and all the work that goes into that and things for people to

(59:25):
understand, breaking down some of the terminology, knowing when key decisions need to bemade, knowing all the different parties that are coming to site and how to muddle through
it.
And we really only just skimmed the surface truthfully.
Don't say that.
okay.
Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on.
And again, if people haven't listened to the first part of this interview, where we talkedabout the design stage, you can find that episode, on the podcast.

(59:51):
And if you want to follow Sarah and her practice, it's McNulty Smith Associates onInstagram.
Thank you so much again, Sarah.
Thank very much Tanya, I really enjoyed that.
Thanks for your time and I'll talk to you again.
Take care.