July 10, 2025 • 39 mins
Co-Host G. Scott Graham (https://mountaintoppodcast.com/copilot) There's a lot of talk about men leading relationships compared to being henpecked by a dominant woman. But realistically speaking, shouldn't you and the woman of your dreams be co-equals in the relationship? But what does that mean? Do we as men need to back off from masculinity in order to make that happen? Well, in my humble estimation, my first-time guest Scott Graham has it all figured out. According to him, the woman in your life should be your co-pilot. When widowed after a 20-year relationship, that's what he asked for, and that's what he got. So then, what does such a relationship with your female "co-pilot" look like? And interestingly enough, what's Scott's strategy for never, ever needing couple's counseling? How can we as men collaborate with our wives and girlfriends without her wearing in the pants in the relationship? What communications styles should we be aware of and practice in a relationship with a woman? How does relational co-piloting fly in the face of (perhaps literally?) the trend toward transactional relationships? What are the two things all co-piloting couples must agree on? Can a man and a woman be dysfunctional in the same weird or toxic way and somehow be great co-pilots together because of it...and have a relatively happy relationship? Yes, starting next week there will be a VIDEO version for each weekly full episode. Getchasum at https://mountaintopodcast.com/youtube
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
All right, gentlemen, check it out.
You're about to listen to the last audio only episode ever of the Mountain Top podcast.
That's right.
Starting next week for next Thursday's full episode, every weekly full episode will alsohave a video version.
You can check out the video version for every podcast going forward after this week atmountaintoppodcast.com front slash YouTube.
(00:26):
I'll have them all in a separate playlist for you.
You'll be able to get the audio and the video versions.
on YouTube and of course if you want to stick with the audio version you can keep gettingthat from Spotify or I heart or Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast from.
Fair warning these episodes are going to be kind of raw in the audio version but I weirdlythink it's an improvement also based on the several we have in the can already they're
(00:51):
funnier.
We're just having a whole lot more laughs I guess when we can see each other.
Anyway I know you guys have been asking for this for a long time and we're going to makeit happen Captain.
But for now, enjoy this episode with my new friend, G.
Scott Graham, called Copiloting with Women.
you
(01:14):
Live from the mist and shrouded mountaintop fortress that is X and Y communicationsheadquarters.
You're listening to the world famous mountaintop podcast.
And now, here's your host, Scott McKay.
How's it going gentlemen?
You are tuned into another episode of the world famous mountaintop podcast as always I amyour host Scott McKay from X and Y communications you can find me on X on true social on
(01:42):
tik-tok and on YouTube at Scott McKay and on threads and Instagram at real Scott McKay asalways the website is mountaintoppodcast.com and Gentlemen once again as I say every
episode if you're not on our Facebook group already
Make sure you go join it.
That's at the Mountaintop Summit on Facebook.
(02:02):
With me today is a new friend of mine.
He's a good dude with a really excellent topic that I can't wait to just crush with a bigheavy hammer with this guy.
He is coming to us from New England.
He's sometimes in Boston, sometimes at his farm in Vermont, which sounds like a prettynice lifestyle.
And he is a polymath of sorts.
(02:23):
He calls himself an existential handyman.
But today we're going to talk specifically about one of the many books he has authoredcalled Cleared for Love, the Co-Pilot's Guide to Lasting Relationships.
His name is Scott Graham, and we are indeed going to talk about co-piloting relationshipswith women.
Welcome, Scott.
Glad to have you.
(02:44):
It is good to be here, Scott.
Nice name.
Yeah man, Scott is a good name, especially if you're of Scottish lineage.
And uh let's your last name is Graham, which is uh English, isn't it?
It's, it heads more towards Scottish.
I did not know that.
I actually, my family thought it was Irish for so many years, but I think it's justbecause they like drinking.
(03:05):
All the guys like drinking on St.
Patrick's day.
And so I found out after I met actually a person from Scotland and we became good friendsand she said, you know, Graham really is a Scottish name.
And I've been to a couple Highlander events and found the Graham family crests fromScotland.
How about that?
guess because I've always heard Graham as a first name, kind like with Nigel and Colin,it's up there, right?
(03:32):
It's purely English first names you don't ever hear anywhere else.
Like, I don't know a whole lot of Nigels who are Americans, you know what I mean?
I mean
Yeah, Graham seems to be one of those names, which is why I guess I, you know, to my ownshame as a Scotsman of Clan Mackay, actually, so it's actually pronounced, but that's
awkward.
So Mackay it is in America.
(03:53):
Blame it on Ellis Island, right?
I thought that Graham was an English name, but now that I'm thinking back on everythingI've ever seen in terms of tartans and clans, it seems like I may have seen the clan
Graham somewhere in there.
So that's pretty cool.
And by the way, I don't think you should ever sell the Scots or the British or the Englishshort in terms of their affinity for alcohol and how much of it they're able to consume.
(04:18):
I think the British is pretty much.
But enough about us.
Let's go ahead and talk about your book, Cleared for Love, which is a pretty new book.
By the time this is uh published, this podcast, it will be pretty new on Amazon.
Tell us what inspired the book.
I had been in a relationship for 31 years and my spouse died and I entered a newrelationship.
(04:45):
one of the things that kind of became the forefront, after you've been through arelationship for 31 years, you really kind of have the skills together that you didn't
have when you first started.
So in this new relationship, I initiated a conversation of, what do we need to do tocommunicate?
And based on my 31 years of experience, this is my opinion of what I think we need to do.
(05:13):
And we started talking about how we communicate and how we build a relationship with eachother.
At the same time, when we were talking about these communication skills, uh I got askedthis really pointed question, like, what kind of partner are you looking for?
And I didn't even hesitate.
(05:34):
I was like, I'm looking for a co-pilot.
That's exactly what I'm looking for.
And from that conversation of co-pilot and communication came this book of how you canbuild a solid relationship by reflecting on that metaphor of what a good co-pilot does.
(06:00):
So talk to me about how you're relating the term co-pilot to relationships in particular.
What does that even mean?
Well, think about it.
If you're flying a plane and you're in the cockpit, you want a co-pilot that is gonna beseated right next to you.
You don't want a co-pilot that is going to get up and head out and talk to the passengerswhile you're flying the plane.
(06:28):
You want a co-pilot that's right there and present with you.
You also, as a pilot and co-pilot,
you wanna be talking about things before they come up.
Like there's turbulence ahead.
That's kind of a core thing about collaboration.
So copilot turns to the pilot or the pilot turns to the copilot, you're both there andsays, there's turbulence up ahead.
(06:55):
What do we wanna do about it?
Are we gonna gain elevation?
Are we gonna descend?
Are we gonna go try to fly around it?
What are we gonna do?
And then you both.
Decide together what you're going to do.
Now I sense you're an aviation guy.
I am kind of an aviation guy.
I a FAA drone license, which I'm pretty proud of.
(07:18):
And I really am into planes, but I'm also into good relationships too, because there isnothing worse than a relationship that's gone south.
You spend all this time really just trying to salvage something that you should have beenworking on and building from the very beginning.
(07:38):
and kind of carrying that analogy forward a bit.
Smooth flights are wonderful, turbulent flights suck, and the last thing you want to do iscrash and burn.
Absolutely.
And actually, the last thing you want to do is have all kinds of problems because yourco-pilot's not communicating to you.
Or you're the co-pilot and you forgot to tell the captain that this engine light came on,or this issue came on, or that issue.
(08:08):
There's a reason there's two co-pilots and a third, a navigator on a plane together.
There's a lot of stuff to manage.
And there's a lot of stuff to manage in a relationship.
We just take it for granted.
And especially once we've gotten past the initial dating, the meet and greet, especiallyfor a lot of folks, once we got married, you know, most people, unfortunately put more
(08:35):
energy into maintaining their car, washing and waxing their pickup truck than they do intothe relationships with their girlfriends.
uh
Unfortunately.
That's very true.
And I've talked about that before.
We go to college for four, eight, 10 years to make sure we're ready for our career.
(08:57):
We'll take all kinds of training courses to be better at what we love to do.
We'll go out to the driving range and hit a couple baskets of golf balls.
And then when it comes to being attractive to women or making a relationship with onework, we wing it, you know, to kind of carry forward your flying analogy just a little bit
more, right?
(09:18):
But winging it in this context isn't such a good thing.
Absolutely.
in another conversation we had early on, I said, you know what?
I gotta be clear with you.
We are never, ever, ever going to go to couples counseling.
(09:39):
We're not gonna have to go to couples counseling because we are never, ever, ever.
I.
as the man in this relationship taking responsibility for myself and my emotions, am gonnabe working hard enough so that we never ever have to go to couples counseling.
(10:00):
Well, that's an interesting take because I think a lot of guys listening would assumethat's the woman who creates the troubles that made this necessary, this counseling.
So if you're getting into a relationship and you're thinking, okay, well, I can lead as aman in this relationship in a way that's going to obviate the need for her to ever need
counseling.
I'm not sure how you're arriving at that because I mean, women can come up with all kindsof crazy cockamamie stuff once you get to know them that you didn't think was there.
(10:26):
And it can start to feel like, Hey, you know what?
I, I don't think
we've got this together by ourselves, we may need someone to at least mediate this.
So what's your secret sauce for, I don't know, I guess what you're talking about in parthas got to include some sort of vetting of a potential partner before you even get into
the relationship, taking the time to see if you're on each other's wavelength.
(10:46):
What I talk about is getting each other and possibly something more such that you can makesuch a bold pronouncement that we are never gonna need counseling.
So what's your process for that?
Well, there's a couple of pieces and you're right, there has to be a vetting.
And so in this relationship, I'd already done the vetting.
I mean, it wasn't my first time at bat.
I've been through a number of folks.
(11:08):
So I knew this person had the qualities that would mean that we wouldn't have to go tocounseling.
There was a commitment to working things out, a commitment to being a good co-pilot.
So, I mean, think about it this way.
Yes.
a woman's gonna bring God knows what, a guy's gonna bring God knows what into therelationship that you might not know about.
(11:35):
That's just superficial stuff.
If you have good co-piloting skills, you're gonna hit storms, rain, snow, heat, all kindsof things that are gonna happen while you're piloting this plane together.
And...
m
You can't predict those pieces, but you can prepare for those pieces.
(11:58):
So there is a vetting, right?
You don't want to have the, the, the person whose only skillset is to back up and raisethe jetway to connect with the plane.
Once it lands as your co-pilot, you do have to have some sort of vet.
You have to have co-piloting skills, but you also have to have a commitment to staying inthe seat.
(12:23):
Staying in the seat is really important.
Yeah, and once that cockpit door is locked, according to FAA rules, nobody else is goingto go in there.
Exactly.
Exactly.
In my last relationship, Scott, one of the things that we did that we may, and this issomething, gentlemen, if you're listening to this, this takes a lot of courage.
(12:45):
I said in our conversation, we committed in our conversation that we were going to throwthe parachutes away.
And that meant we were going to stick in there forever.
If a person lost their legs, if they went to jail, if they got no, whatever happened, wewere in there.
(13:06):
If there was crappy co-piloting, we would still be in there together.
Now that doesn't mean committing to suffering, gentlemen.
What it means is committing to not letting things get that bad.
It's the same thing I said about not going to therapy, right?
(13:27):
We're not gonna have to go to therapy because
I'm going to make sure that I do my part, that things don't get that bad.
And I'm not going to leave you.
I'm going to stay in this relationship.
Even if it gets horrible.
And with that realization and that commitment, I'm going to make sure damn straight thatthings don't get that bad.
(13:49):
Well, there's got to be a lot of pre-flight planning, a lot of 2024 site, just like you'retalking about.
Absolutely.
And we don't do that in relationships.
We wing it.
You said it earlier, Scott, we do all this, we go to college for four years and then weget in a relationship and we just ignore it.
We spend more time fixing up our house and thinking about our house than we do about ourrelationship.
(14:15):
A lot of women think more about the marriage ceremony than the actual marriage.
Disaster.
It's a disaster waiting to happen.
It's already a disaster before it happens.
Right.
And so gentlemen, you are setting the tone for the relationship that you're going to havefive, 10, 15, 20 years from now, way back when it comes to planning for the wedding.
(14:43):
So with that said, let's go ahead and do some housekeeping regarding the semantics of theactual title of your book.
Cleared for Love, the Copilot's Guide to Lasting Relationships.
If the book is for fellow men, that would imply we are the copilot and that the womanmight be the captain.
But I think you're probably simply using the term copilot in that context, the context ofthe title of your book, that is, to indicate what the book's about.
(15:10):
So really,
Hierarchically, are you advocating that the man be man of the house and the woman beco-pilot, or that you're both kind of co-piloting this plane together with no specific
leadership hierarchy?
It's the second one, Scott.
And I'm glad you brought that up because I'm talking to men on this podcast.
(15:32):
And so when I say to the guys that are listening to this, that it is your responsibilityto make sure that your relationship is stable and that plane is flying steady.
I would say the same thing if I was on a podcast that was only being listened to by women.
(15:52):
I would say to the women listening to the podcast, this is your responsibility to makesure that that plane flies steady and is succeeding to get to the destination that you
want to get it to.
Well, that's interesting because we do talk a lot about masculine leadership on this show.
And the analogy that I would give to co-piloting would be when you get in a car and go outon a date.
(16:17):
I've seen women who have a very strong feminine nature, hand the keys to their own car, ifthat's the only car available, to the guy and say, you drive.
And the guy will say, but it's your car.
She goes, no, you're the man, you drive.
And typically when we go on vacation, even in our household here,
I do most of the driving and that's the way my wife wants it.
(16:39):
She wants me to be the one who's in control with the assumption and it is a safeassumption around here at least, it may not be in other relationships, that the man is
going to have the best interests of wife and descending from that children, pets everybodyin the household in mind as he's piloting.
But in reality, when it comes to emotions, decisions, respect, et cetera,
(17:05):
The popular viewpoint nowadays is male and female, man and woman, you know, whether you'regay or straight, actually, there should be parity in terms of who's actually in charge.
Otherwise the man may be branded toxic or a controlling jerk or something like that.
But as good as that sounds, think women are always going to count on a man to be the manof the house.
(17:29):
And you've said it yourself a couple of times so far in this podcast, but that doesn'tmean
we're lording it over her.
We're actually together side by side.
So wrap all this up with a bow.
And I think there's a reason why the co-pilot sits side by side.
It's not like she's following me around or I'm following her around.
We're joined at the hip.
(17:50):
We're together in this thing side by side is co-equals with masculine and feminine roles,respecting each other or viewpoints, our respective knowledge, our decision-making powers,
et cetera, et cetera.
Although ultimately,
in terms of a man being the leader, he is going to be the one who acts when the chips aredown.
Follow what I'm saying?
(18:10):
Absolutely.
you say parody Scott, what I really heard was there needs to be an agreement on who'sdoing what when on what roles people are having.
There's when you say that you get in the car and you're driving the car and away you go.
There's an agreement that you have worked out with your wife.
(18:33):
Not probably not with the dogs probably not with your kids but at least with your wife youworked out an agreement on on how things are going to go when you're going someplace and
you're traveling.
Definitely not the dogs, they would be strict mistresses.
Yeah.
Right.
And so the important piece is to have a conversation so that you are both in agreement ofwhat those roles are.
(18:59):
And that's the collaboration piece.
If you come in, I talk about a number of different types of communication styles with aco-pilot.
And so we've got collaboration, we have negotiation, we have kind of drawing a line in thesand where we say, if you pass this,
then this is gonna happen and then we have you know this really nice French term which Ialways butcher, fait accompli.
(19:25):
Did I say that in French enough?
I don't know.
ah I'll say it the American way because I'm American, fait accompli.
That is where you just do what you're gonna do anyway and it's a done deal.
You don't ask, you don't tell, you just do and then it's like yeah, look what I bought,look what I did.
(19:46):
I made the decision and didn't involve you.
And so you work backward from there, right?
I made the decision and didn't involve you, not good at all.
Moving one step towards better is, and I mean, just a little step towards better is, ifyou do this, then I'm gonna do that, right?
(20:07):
It's this kind of threat.
You've put a line in the sand.
It's the ultimatum, right?
I'm not tolerating this anymore.
this is how I need it to be.
And then negotiation moves it in even better direction, but that's where most people stop.
It's collaboration, collaboration that is best.
(20:29):
And the difference between collaboration and negotiation is profound.
You're not arguing from a point when you're collaborating.
You don't even have a decision in mind.
And so guys, let me tell you this.
If you come up to somebody, let's say you're,
I'm arguing about, well, Scott, give me a topic that you think most couples argue about.
(20:54):
Okay.
So you're, you're arguing about money with, with your wife and she wants to spend acertain amount of money on, I don't know, gardening equipment.
And you, you don't, do you think that's not going to work out in the budget and you haveanother position?
(21:14):
on what you think, like you shouldn't buy the gardening equipment because we want to go onthis trip.
You are negotiating.
You already have an end result in mind.
Collaboration is, hey, we have a certain amount of money.
What do you think we should do with it?
What are your goals?
What are you?
Should we have money set for retirement?
(21:35):
What should we do?
I have a couple that I'm working with right now and they're going through thiscollaboration negotiation stuff.
with each other, she just told me last week, I was talking to the wife, their relationshiphas never been better.
And I asked her, says, what's going on?
What do you think that is?
(21:56):
And she said, you know, I think it's because we're talking about things at a much morebaser level.
Like we haven't made up our minds and we're trying to convince the other person, we'rereally listening and being present about what's going on.
and then trying to figure it out together.
(22:16):
So we wrapped up our call at the end of the call.
I said to her, said, I have a homework assignment for you if you're up for it.
She was up for it.
I said, without telling your husband what you just told me, I want you just to go up tohim this week and say, hey, things seem a little bit better between us.
What do you think?
(22:37):
Do you think, and he's probably going to say yes because she's confirmed that it is.
And then I said to her, said, ask him why he thinks that is, and then just listen.
I said, your assignment is not, is, and I was just really important.
I said, your assignment is not to go and then say, well, this is what I think.
(23:01):
This is not that communication.
This is you want to see if what comes out of his mouth matches your theory to see if youreally are at that level of
basic communication in identifying the turbulence in your relationship.
So we'll see how she does.
Yeah, we'll see.
(23:21):
I found myself listening very intently to that storyline because it sounds so familiar,even in my own practice.
Everything you're talking about, the communication, the collaboration has got to be builton trust.
And the trust has to be based on us being in this together, having vetted each other,chosen each other.
(23:42):
And I understand what's going on in your head.
I understand your values and I agree with them and I'm like-minded.
And then if you think of fear and love as opposites, and I know you come from a Buddhistbackground, at least to some degree, so you're probably going to be tracking with me on
that, that premise is more common in Eastern religious process than it is inJudeo-Christian ones.
(24:05):
Although I don't believe for the record that it's in any way, shape, or form inconsistentwith Judeo-Christian belief and practice, I think it just rings true to me that the
opposite of love is fear.
So therefore, the less you fear your spouse, your co-pilot, the more you love them.
And going along with that lack of fear is trust because of course, lack of trust, doubt,uh suspicion is a fear-based energy.
(24:33):
So this vetting process absolutely positively involves you meeting someone and relating tosomeone and connecting with someone because you're like-minded, you get each other, which
is the way I talk about it.
Unfortunately, nowadays, a lot of people in our postmodern era have fallen into the trapof seeing relationships as transactional.
(24:55):
In other words, what do I get from this?
And, you know, what is this other person going to want from this?
And are we going to be able to negotiate a happy medium so no one gets taken and no onehas to give too much?
But when you're coming from that transactional perspective with regard to relationships,
Well, what ends up happening is you don't get that connection and you don't get aco-pilot.
(25:18):
You get an adversary.
Now, if you have two guys at the front of an aircraft fighting over who's going to get toland the thing and, right, you get to take off this time, I get to land it next time,
that's not a collaboration, that's a competition and you damn skippy don't want your twopilots up there fighting about it.
So the relationship, you know, and of course this is the allegory you're promoting and I'mobviously agreeing with you.
(25:42):
The relationship is flying this airplane of life together and being in collaboration asyou do it, which involves the trust.
Therefore, when you're making decisions, it can't be what's in my best interest versuswhat's in your best interest.
It has to be, love you, so I want what's in your best interest.
And the other person feeling the same way, you know, is looking out for your best interestand isn't being all selfish.
(26:04):
That's how a good relationship works.
And that's how you get to the point where one plus one equals five or 10 or 50.
not just one plus one equals two.
But nowadays, I'd love for you to comment on this, Scott.
It seems like people have gotten to the point where they're getting into a relationshipexpecting only to get what they want.
There's not even a negotiation process anymore.
(26:24):
I'm marrying you so you can make me happy, or you can pay all the bills, or you can be myemotional support husband, or something like that.
And how dare this other person have needs?
They're there for me, not vice versa.
And then we wonder why people break up so much.
So I'm not even sure people are asking the right questions up front when they've metsomeone and they're deciding whether or not to get in a relationship with them.
(26:48):
I think we've lost our groundedness.
I don't think we know how to taxi down the runway, let alone take off anymore.
You know what I mean?
I think you're right on with that.
are right on.
Gentlemen, if you are coming from a perspective of collaboration and your spouse or spouseto be is coming from a perspective of ultimatum, it ain't gonna work.
(27:10):
It ain't gonna work.
The ultimatum is coming from a position of weakness and fear anyway.
They don't feel like they have the choices, so they're leaving the choice up to you.
You tell me what the choice is going to be.
Stay or leave.
Yes or no.
Right, it's the sense of control.
So you both have to be on this collaboration focus.
(27:32):
And if you think about this.
What a horrific flight, first of all, would be if your two co-pilots were notcommunicating together and one wanted to go this way and was grabbing the yoke and turning
it to the left and the other one was turning to the right or they weren't trusting eachother or one had to look over the other's or, you know, did you put the landing gear down?
(27:57):
Well, I don't trust that you put the landing gear down unless I see you put the landinggear down.
uh
Put it up again and put it down again so I can see you do.
I mean, what a nightmare, right?
Or what would happen if you had two co-pilots and one just stepped out and is like, yeah,I'm done.
Whatever movie that is, would surely star Leslie Nielsen.
Yeah.
(28:19):
Right.
man.
And you think about this, this piece that we're talking about with relationships, itdoesn't matter what the perspectives are of the two co-pilots.
One could be a hard line.
I will do a little political piece.
One could be a hardline Democrat and the other one could be a hardline Republican.
(28:42):
That doesn't matter.
One could be Jewish and one could be Christian.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is an agreement on two things.
What kind of flight do we want to have and where are we going?
That's it.
What's our destination?
What are we working towards and what kind of flight do we want to have?
(29:06):
We're gonna have a safe flight.
We're gonna have a secure flight.
We're gonna try to get there and knock off five minutes or we're gonna go around thiscloud front and that's gonna add 20 minutes, whatever it is.
There's an agreement on the destination and the environment on the way to the destination.
(29:28):
Or we could be stunt daredevils at the next air show.
As long as we're on the same page in terms of what this flight's going to be like.
Yes, you have to be on the same page.
And if when things come up, when things come and it's invariably going to come up, youhave to be able to identify those things early and respond to them together.
(29:57):
Have you ever met a couple who just loves to argue and you're saying to yourself what iswrong with these people until you realize they're perfect for each other.
They found each other and this is just how they roll.
Have you ever met a couple like that?
ah My last relationship was like that.
And it's actually kind of fun for them.
(30:17):
I know a couple, both of them have got to be on the autism spectrum in the exact same way.
Neither one of them understands humor.
They think anybody with a sense of humor who cracks jokes is stupid and dumb and should beridiculed.
And they're exactly alike.
And I'm sure they'll be married for 65 years happily.
It's insane.
I know couples who are both narcissists happily being co-narcissists at the expense ofeverybody else they know.
(30:44):
It's remarkable to me, but they're perfect for each other because like you just said, andI believe very wisely and eloquently, I think it's a wonderful analogy.
They decided what kind of flight they want to have and where they were going and they'rein agreement.
You know, you mentioned politics.
James Carville is married to a woman named Mary Matalin, M-A-T-A-L-I-N, and they've beenhappily married for like 40, maybe 50 years.
(31:08):
And if you know anything about James Carville, he's a very outspoken democratic pundit.
Meanwhile, his wife was George Herbert Walker Bush's campaign director.
I believe it was George Herbert Walker Bush.
It may have been George W.
Bush, but I think she goes further back than that.
And she's deeply Republican.
So I mean, these people can have marriages that go the distance despite politicaldifferences.
(31:31):
And you also mentioned in passing religious differences.
I think it's probably a lot easier and makes a lot more sense if a couple votes the sameway and prays to the same God, but it's not necessary, especially in the context you're
providing.
and I really appreciate it.
You could have Scott, you could have two Republicans sitting right next to each other onthe airplane and they could fight about the destination.
(31:53):
They could put it on the aircraft.
could, they wouldn't trust each other and you could have a miserable flight.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
the funny thing, you know, I said that my spouse uh and I, you know, fought a lot.
We didn't at the very beginning of our relationship.
But see, here's the thing.
(32:13):
My spouse was not very assertive, not very assertive at all.
And I kept saying, you got to step up for yourself.
You got to speak up.
Stop taking people's crap.
Well, eventually they stopped taking other people's crap and you know who was included inthat list of people.
(32:37):
Yeah, buddy.
And you know, I did not get the memo and, and we had this, I remember this huge argumentthat we had.
And I mean, I, got thrown in my face.
You want me to stand up for myself?
You want me to stand up for myself?
I'm God damn it.
I'm standing up for myself.
(32:58):
And I, and I remember turning and saying, I'm sorry.
I said that incorrectly.
What I meant was I want you to stand up for, I realized what was going on.
And so this was humorous.
I I want you to stand up to everybody else on the planet, except me.
want you to count out me and I want you just to do whatever I say.
(33:20):
I mean, and we both laughed and shrugged it off.
And then we, you know, we built up kind of a thick skin around kind of our uh strongcompativeness to each other.
And I knew that that was just an outgrowth of stepping up to other people because it wascollaborative, because that was the place that we were negotiating and not negotiating.
(33:47):
We had talked about, we had planned and we accepted.
It didn't even faze us when we were arguing about different pieces.
It fazed other people.
They were like, God, you guys are at each other's throats.
And I remember turning to my mom, she's like, why do you guys fight all the time?
And I'm like,
Were we fighting?
It's not fighting, it's collaborative banter.
(34:12):
Well, I love it.
This has been a fantastic conversation and we could go on and on.
What I want to do though, is I want to point these guys to your book.
It's pretty new.
It's on Amazon.
And gentlemen, when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com front slash Amazon, you'll find ScottGraham's book, Cleared for Love, the Co-Pilot's Guide to Lasting Relationships, right
(34:33):
there at the top of the Amazon influencer queue at mountaintoppodcast.com front slashAmazon, especially if you're listening to this show within about a week or so of its
release.
And also, when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com, front slash co-pilot, C-O-P-I-L-O-T, itcan look like Copalot without that hyphen, and that probably sounds a little more
(34:58):
interesting to guys anyway, to Copalot.
But in any case, when they go to that URL, they will be sent to gscotgram.com.
What are they going to find there,
boy, well they will find all my books.
This co-piloting book is my 29th book.
And so they'll
You're making me feel like a slacker.
(35:19):
You know, I have to tell you, some of the books I just published, like six books thisspring, they were, but, people were like, wow, you just, you've really been pumping them
out.
And I'm like, well, some of these books I started like five years ago and I'm justfinishing them up now.
And so I was a cold winter.
And I had time on my hands, so I finished them up.
(35:39):
And so you'll find those.
You'll find links to my social media sites.
You'll find information about coaching and working with me if that's a piece thatinterests you.
But mostly you'll find my books and reviews and you'll even find this podcast listedthere.
Well, that warms my heart.
Very much the opposite of your winters up there in New England.
(36:02):
Hey, has there ever been a mild winter in New England up in your neck of the woods?
Let's be honest.
No, there's, there's, there's, had a really long summer.
Like I think it was 10 years ago.
had a, the longest summer in New England history.
went from July 1st to July 9th.
It was great.
It was great.
(36:22):
It was record.
record heat in the 60s.
Exactly.
Very good, very good.
G.
Scott Graham, you are an aviation enthusiast, an existential handyman, and an author.
And this has been a wonderful conversation, a whole lot of fun.
Thank you so much for dropping by.
I'm very, very pleased to make your acquaintance, and I hope you'll come back.
(36:43):
I definitely will.
Thanks, Scott.
It has been a privilege to be here.
And gentlemen, be good co-pilots.
Vet your co-pilots.
Don't get in the pilot seat when there's some, I don't know, someone that doesn't evenknow how to fly a plane.
Make sure that you're starting out the same place and you will be successful in yourrelationship.
(37:05):
Ugh, the places I could go in extending this episode just based on that last statementalone.
But I'm going to resist that temptation.
Anyway, thank you so much for joining us, Scott.
We're definitely going have you back maybe to discuss one of your other 29 books.
All right.
Hey guys, go to mountstoppodcast.com and visit our sponsors, Jocko Willinks Company Originin Maine, which is just up the street from Scott.
(37:30):
in the northeastern part of United States.
I'm sure they have similar winters up there, but it doesn't stop them from making greatstuff that's really going to make you feel like you leveled up your masculinity.
Origin in Maine, Hero's Soap, and the Keyport, all wonderfully paired sponsors for thisparticular show because all three of them level up your masculinity.
And when you use the coupon code, Mountain 10, with any of our sponsors, you'll get anadditional 10 % off at checkout.
(37:57):
And gentlemen, all you have to do is go to mountaintoppodcast.com.
All three are linked to from there.
Some of you have not talked to on the phone yet for 25 or 30 minutes won't cost you adime.
I will give you results in advance.
You can talk to me about, I don't know, whatever's going on in your life with the womenyou're either meeting or not meeting just yet.
And, or if you have any ideas for the show, any feedback you want to give me about theshow, I'm open to that too.
(38:22):
I'll put my fire suit on, whatever it takes.
You can sign up for that free call with me.
can be over phone or Zoom at mountotoppodcast.com as well.
And until I talk to you again real soon, this is Scott McKay from X and Y Communicationsin San Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.
(38:42):
you
Mountain Top Podcast is produced by X and Y Communications, all rights reserved worldwide.
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for show notes.
And while you're there, sign up for the free X and Y Communications newsletter for men.
(39:06):
This is Ed Roy Oldham speaking for the Mountain Top Podcast.
you
All right, gentlemen, check it out.
You're about to listen to the last audio only episode ever of the Mountain Top podcast.
That's right.
Starting next week for next Thursday's full episode, every weekly full episode will alsohave a video version.
You can check out the video version for every podcast going forward after this week atmountaintoppodcast.com front slash YouTube.
(00:26):
I'll have them all in a separate playlist for you.
You'll be able to get the audio and the video versions.
on YouTube and of course if you want to stick with the audio version you can keep gettingthat from Spotify or I heart or Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast from.
Fair warning these episodes are going to be kind of raw in the audio version but I weirdlythink it's an improvement also based on the several we have in the can already they're
(00:51):
funnier.
We're just having a whole lot more laughs I guess when we can see each other.
Anyway I know you guys have been asking for this for a long time and we're going to makeit happen Captain.
But for now, enjoy this episode with my new friend, G.
Scott Graham, called Copiloting with Women.
you
(01:14):
Live from the mist and shrouded mountaintop fortress that is X and Y communicationsheadquarters.
You're listening to the world famous mountaintop podcast.
And now, here's your host, Scott McKay.
How's it going gentlemen?
You are tuned into another episode of the world famous mountaintop podcast as always I amyour host Scott McKay from X and Y communications you can find me on X on true social on
(01:42):
tik-tok and on YouTube at Scott McKay and on threads and Instagram at real Scott McKay asalways the website is mountaintoppodcast.com and Gentlemen once again as I say every
episode if you're not on our Facebook group already
Make sure you go join it.
That's at the Mountaintop Summit on Facebook.
(02:02):
With me today is a new friend of mine.
He's a good dude with a really excellent topic that I can't wait to just crush with a bigheavy hammer with this guy.
He is coming to us from New England.
He's sometimes in Boston, sometimes at his farm in Vermont, which sounds like a prettynice lifestyle.
And he is a polymath of sorts.
(02:23):
He calls himself an existential handyman.
But today we're going to talk specifically about one of the many books he has authoredcalled Cleared for Love, the Co-Pilot's Guide to Lasting Relationships.
His name is Scott Graham, and we are indeed going to talk about co-piloting relationshipswith women.
Welcome, Scott.
Glad to have you.
(02:44):
It is good to be here, Scott.
Nice name.
Yeah man, Scott is a good name, especially if you're of Scottish lineage.
And uh let's your last name is Graham, which is uh English, isn't it?
It's, it heads more towards Scottish.
I did not know that.
I actually, my family thought it was Irish for so many years, but I think it's justbecause they like drinking.
(03:05):
All the guys like drinking on St.
Patrick's day.
And so I found out after I met actually a person from Scotland and we became good friendsand she said, you know, Graham really is a Scottish name.
And I've been to a couple Highlander events and found the Graham family crests fromScotland.
How about that?
guess because I've always heard Graham as a first name, kind like with Nigel and Colin,it's up there, right?
(03:32):
It's purely English first names you don't ever hear anywhere else.
Like, I don't know a whole lot of Nigels who are Americans, you know what I mean?
I mean
Yeah, Graham seems to be one of those names, which is why I guess I, you know, to my ownshame as a Scotsman of Clan Mackay, actually, so it's actually pronounced, but that's
awkward.
So Mackay it is in America.
(03:53):
Blame it on Ellis Island, right?
I thought that Graham was an English name, but now that I'm thinking back on everythingI've ever seen in terms of tartans and clans, it seems like I may have seen the clan
Graham somewhere in there.
So that's pretty cool.
And by the way, I don't think you should ever sell the Scots or the British or the Englishshort in terms of their affinity for alcohol and how much of it they're able to consume.
(04:18):
I think the British is pretty much.
But enough about us.
Let's go ahead and talk about your book, Cleared for Love, which is a pretty new book.
By the time this is uh published, this podcast, it will be pretty new on Amazon.
Tell us what inspired the book.
I had been in a relationship for 31 years and my spouse died and I entered a newrelationship.
(04:45):
one of the things that kind of became the forefront, after you've been through arelationship for 31 years, you really kind of have the skills together that you didn't
have when you first started.
So in this new relationship, I initiated a conversation of, what do we need to do tocommunicate?
And based on my 31 years of experience, this is my opinion of what I think we need to do.
(05:13):
And we started talking about how we communicate and how we build a relationship with eachother.
At the same time, when we were talking about these communication skills, uh I got askedthis really pointed question, like, what kind of partner are you looking for?
And I didn't even hesitate.
(05:34):
I was like, I'm looking for a co-pilot.
That's exactly what I'm looking for.
And from that conversation of co-pilot and communication came this book of how you canbuild a solid relationship by reflecting on that metaphor of what a good co-pilot does.
(06:00):
So talk to me about how you're relating the term co-pilot to relationships in particular.
What does that even mean?
Well, think about it.
If you're flying a plane and you're in the cockpit, you want a co-pilot that is gonna beseated right next to you.
You don't want a co-pilot that is going to get up and head out and talk to the passengerswhile you're flying the plane.
(06:28):
You want a co-pilot that's right there and present with you.
You also, as a pilot and co-pilot,
you wanna be talking about things before they come up.
Like there's turbulence ahead.
That's kind of a core thing about collaboration.
So copilot turns to the pilot or the pilot turns to the copilot, you're both there andsays, there's turbulence up ahead.
(06:55):
What do we wanna do about it?
Are we gonna gain elevation?
Are we gonna descend?
Are we gonna go try to fly around it?
What are we gonna do?
And then you both.
Decide together what you're going to do.
Now I sense you're an aviation guy.
I am kind of an aviation guy.
I a FAA drone license, which I'm pretty proud of.
(07:18):
And I really am into planes, but I'm also into good relationships too, because there isnothing worse than a relationship that's gone south.
You spend all this time really just trying to salvage something that you should have beenworking on and building from the very beginning.
(07:38):
and kind of carrying that analogy forward a bit.
Smooth flights are wonderful, turbulent flights suck, and the last thing you want to do iscrash and burn.
Absolutely.
And actually, the last thing you want to do is have all kinds of problems because yourco-pilot's not communicating to you.
Or you're the co-pilot and you forgot to tell the captain that this engine light came on,or this issue came on, or that issue.
(08:08):
There's a reason there's two co-pilots and a third, a navigator on a plane together.
There's a lot of stuff to manage.
And there's a lot of stuff to manage in a relationship.
We just take it for granted.
And especially once we've gotten past the initial dating, the meet and greet, especiallyfor a lot of folks, once we got married, you know, most people, unfortunately put more
(08:35):
energy into maintaining their car, washing and waxing their pickup truck than they do intothe relationships with their girlfriends.
uh
Unfortunately.
That's very true.
And I've talked about that before.
We go to college for four, eight, 10 years to make sure we're ready for our career.
(08:57):
We'll take all kinds of training courses to be better at what we love to do.
We'll go out to the driving range and hit a couple baskets of golf balls.
And then when it comes to being attractive to women or making a relationship with onework, we wing it, you know, to kind of carry forward your flying analogy just a little bit
more, right?
(09:18):
But winging it in this context isn't such a good thing.
Absolutely.
in another conversation we had early on, I said, you know what?
I gotta be clear with you.
We are never, ever, ever going to go to couples counseling.
(09:39):
We're not gonna have to go to couples counseling because we are never, ever, ever.
I.
as the man in this relationship taking responsibility for myself and my emotions, am gonnabe working hard enough so that we never ever have to go to couples counseling.
(10:00):
Well, that's an interesting take because I think a lot of guys listening would assumethat's the woman who creates the troubles that made this necessary, this counseling.
So if you're getting into a relationship and you're thinking, okay, well, I can lead as aman in this relationship in a way that's going to obviate the need for her to ever need
counseling.
I'm not sure how you're arriving at that because I mean, women can come up with all kindsof crazy cockamamie stuff once you get to know them that you didn't think was there.
(10:26):
And it can start to feel like, Hey, you know what?
I, I don't think
we've got this together by ourselves, we may need someone to at least mediate this.
So what's your secret sauce for, I don't know, I guess what you're talking about in parthas got to include some sort of vetting of a potential partner before you even get into
the relationship, taking the time to see if you're on each other's wavelength.
(10:46):
What I talk about is getting each other and possibly something more such that you can makesuch a bold pronouncement that we are never gonna need counseling.
So what's your process for that?
Well, there's a couple of pieces and you're right, there has to be a vetting.
And so in this relationship, I'd already done the vetting.
I mean, it wasn't my first time at bat.
I've been through a number of folks.
(11:08):
So I knew this person had the qualities that would mean that we wouldn't have to go tocounseling.
There was a commitment to working things out, a commitment to being a good co-pilot.
So, I mean, think about it this way.
Yes.
a woman's gonna bring God knows what, a guy's gonna bring God knows what into therelationship that you might not know about.
(11:35):
That's just superficial stuff.
If you have good co-piloting skills, you're gonna hit storms, rain, snow, heat, all kindsof things that are gonna happen while you're piloting this plane together.
And...
m
You can't predict those pieces, but you can prepare for those pieces.
(11:58):
So there is a vetting, right?
You don't want to have the, the, the person whose only skillset is to back up and raisethe jetway to connect with the plane.
Once it lands as your co-pilot, you do have to have some sort of vet.
You have to have co-piloting skills, but you also have to have a commitment to staying inthe seat.
(12:23):
Staying in the seat is really important.
Yeah, and once that cockpit door is locked, according to FAA rules, nobody else is goingto go in there.
Exactly.
Exactly.
In my last relationship, Scott, one of the things that we did that we may, and this issomething, gentlemen, if you're listening to this, this takes a lot of courage.
(12:45):
I said in our conversation, we committed in our conversation that we were going to throwthe parachutes away.
And that meant we were going to stick in there forever.
If a person lost their legs, if they went to jail, if they got no, whatever happened, wewere in there.
(13:06):
If there was crappy co-piloting, we would still be in there together.
Now that doesn't mean committing to suffering, gentlemen.
What it means is committing to not letting things get that bad.
It's the same thing I said about not going to therapy, right?
(13:27):
We're not gonna have to go to therapy because
I'm going to make sure that I do my part, that things don't get that bad.
And I'm not going to leave you.
I'm going to stay in this relationship.
Even if it gets horrible.
And with that realization and that commitment, I'm going to make sure damn straight thatthings don't get that bad.
(13:49):
Well, there's got to be a lot of pre-flight planning, a lot of 2024 site, just like you'retalking about.
Absolutely.
And we don't do that in relationships.
We wing it.
You said it earlier, Scott, we do all this, we go to college for four years and then weget in a relationship and we just ignore it.
We spend more time fixing up our house and thinking about our house than we do about ourrelationship.
(14:15):
A lot of women think more about the marriage ceremony than the actual marriage.
Disaster.
It's a disaster waiting to happen.
It's already a disaster before it happens.
Right.
And so gentlemen, you are setting the tone for the relationship that you're going to havefive, 10, 15, 20 years from now, way back when it comes to planning for the wedding.
(14:43):
So with that said, let's go ahead and do some housekeeping regarding the semantics of theactual title of your book.
Cleared for Love, the Copilot's Guide to Lasting Relationships.
If the book is for fellow men, that would imply we are the copilot and that the womanmight be the captain.
But I think you're probably simply using the term copilot in that context, the context ofthe title of your book, that is, to indicate what the book's about.
(15:10):
So really,
Hierarchically, are you advocating that the man be man of the house and the woman beco-pilot, or that you're both kind of co-piloting this plane together with no specific
leadership hierarchy?
It's the second one, Scott.
And I'm glad you brought that up because I'm talking to men on this podcast.
(15:32):
And so when I say to the guys that are listening to this, that it is your responsibilityto make sure that your relationship is stable and that plane is flying steady.
I would say the same thing if I was on a podcast that was only being listened to by women.
(15:52):
I would say to the women listening to the podcast, this is your responsibility to makesure that that plane flies steady and is succeeding to get to the destination that you
want to get it to.
Well, that's interesting because we do talk a lot about masculine leadership on this show.
And the analogy that I would give to co-piloting would be when you get in a car and go outon a date.
(16:17):
I've seen women who have a very strong feminine nature, hand the keys to their own car, ifthat's the only car available, to the guy and say, you drive.
And the guy will say, but it's your car.
She goes, no, you're the man, you drive.
And typically when we go on vacation, even in our household here,
I do most of the driving and that's the way my wife wants it.
(16:39):
She wants me to be the one who's in control with the assumption and it is a safeassumption around here at least, it may not be in other relationships, that the man is
going to have the best interests of wife and descending from that children, pets everybodyin the household in mind as he's piloting.
But in reality, when it comes to emotions, decisions, respect, et cetera,
(17:05):
The popular viewpoint nowadays is male and female, man and woman, you know, whether you'regay or straight, actually, there should be parity in terms of who's actually in charge.
Otherwise the man may be branded toxic or a controlling jerk or something like that.
But as good as that sounds, think women are always going to count on a man to be the manof the house.
(17:29):
And you've said it yourself a couple of times so far in this podcast, but that doesn'tmean
we're lording it over her.
We're actually together side by side.
So wrap all this up with a bow.
And I think there's a reason why the co-pilot sits side by side.
It's not like she's following me around or I'm following her around.
We're joined at the hip.
(17:50):
We're together in this thing side by side is co-equals with masculine and feminine roles,respecting each other or viewpoints, our respective knowledge, our decision-making powers,
et cetera, et cetera.
Although ultimately,
in terms of a man being the leader, he is going to be the one who acts when the chips aredown.
Follow what I'm saying?
(18:10):
Absolutely.
you say parody Scott, what I really heard was there needs to be an agreement on who'sdoing what when on what roles people are having.
There's when you say that you get in the car and you're driving the car and away you go.
There's an agreement that you have worked out with your wife.
(18:33):
Not probably not with the dogs probably not with your kids but at least with your wife youworked out an agreement on on how things are going to go when you're going someplace and
you're traveling.
Definitely not the dogs, they would be strict mistresses.
Yeah.
Right.
And so the important piece is to have a conversation so that you are both in agreement ofwhat those roles are.
(18:59):
And that's the collaboration piece.
If you come in, I talk about a number of different types of communication styles with aco-pilot.
And so we've got collaboration, we have negotiation, we have kind of drawing a line in thesand where we say, if you pass this,
then this is gonna happen and then we have you know this really nice French term which Ialways butcher, fait accompli.
(19:25):
Did I say that in French enough?
I don't know.
ah I'll say it the American way because I'm American, fait accompli.
That is where you just do what you're gonna do anyway and it's a done deal.
You don't ask, you don't tell, you just do and then it's like yeah, look what I bought,look what I did.
(19:46):
I made the decision and didn't involve you.
And so you work backward from there, right?
I made the decision and didn't involve you, not good at all.
Moving one step towards better is, and I mean, just a little step towards better is, ifyou do this, then I'm gonna do that, right?
(20:07):
It's this kind of threat.
You've put a line in the sand.
It's the ultimatum, right?
I'm not tolerating this anymore.
this is how I need it to be.
And then negotiation moves it in even better direction, but that's where most people stop.
It's collaboration, collaboration that is best.
(20:29):
And the difference between collaboration and negotiation is profound.
You're not arguing from a point when you're collaborating.
You don't even have a decision in mind.
And so guys, let me tell you this.
If you come up to somebody, let's say you're,
I'm arguing about, well, Scott, give me a topic that you think most couples argue about.
(20:54):
Okay.
So you're, you're arguing about money with, with your wife and she wants to spend acertain amount of money on, I don't know, gardening equipment.
And you, you don't, do you think that's not going to work out in the budget and you haveanother position?
(21:14):
on what you think, like you shouldn't buy the gardening equipment because we want to go onthis trip.
You are negotiating.
You already have an end result in mind.
Collaboration is, hey, we have a certain amount of money.
What do you think we should do with it?
What are your goals?
What are you?
Should we have money set for retirement?
(21:35):
What should we do?
I have a couple that I'm working with right now and they're going through thiscollaboration negotiation stuff.
with each other, she just told me last week, I was talking to the wife, their relationshiphas never been better.
And I asked her, says, what's going on?
What do you think that is?
(21:56):
And she said, you know, I think it's because we're talking about things at a much morebaser level.
Like we haven't made up our minds and we're trying to convince the other person, we'rereally listening and being present about what's going on.
and then trying to figure it out together.
(22:16):
So we wrapped up our call at the end of the call.
I said to her, said, I have a homework assignment for you if you're up for it.
She was up for it.
I said, without telling your husband what you just told me, I want you just to go up tohim this week and say, hey, things seem a little bit better between us.
What do you think?
(22:37):
Do you think, and he's probably going to say yes because she's confirmed that it is.
And then I said to her, said, ask him why he thinks that is, and then just listen.
I said, your assignment is not, is, and I was just really important.
I said, your assignment is not to go and then say, well, this is what I think.
(23:01):
This is not that communication.
This is you want to see if what comes out of his mouth matches your theory to see if youreally are at that level of
basic communication in identifying the turbulence in your relationship.
So we'll see how she does.
Yeah, we'll see.
(23:21):
I found myself listening very intently to that storyline because it sounds so familiar,even in my own practice.
Everything you're talking about, the communication, the collaboration has got to be builton trust.
And the trust has to be based on us being in this together, having vetted each other,chosen each other.
(23:42):
And I understand what's going on in your head.
I understand your values and I agree with them and I'm like-minded.
And then if you think of fear and love as opposites, and I know you come from a Buddhistbackground, at least to some degree, so you're probably going to be tracking with me on
that, that premise is more common in Eastern religious process than it is inJudeo-Christian ones.
(24:05):
Although I don't believe for the record that it's in any way, shape, or form inconsistentwith Judeo-Christian belief and practice, I think it just rings true to me that the
opposite of love is fear.
So therefore, the less you fear your spouse, your co-pilot, the more you love them.
And going along with that lack of fear is trust because of course, lack of trust, doubt,uh suspicion is a fear-based energy.
(24:33):
So this vetting process absolutely positively involves you meeting someone and relating tosomeone and connecting with someone because you're like-minded, you get each other, which
is the way I talk about it.
Unfortunately, nowadays, a lot of people in our postmodern era have fallen into the trapof seeing relationships as transactional.
(24:55):
In other words, what do I get from this?
And, you know, what is this other person going to want from this?
And are we going to be able to negotiate a happy medium so no one gets taken and no onehas to give too much?
But when you're coming from that transactional perspective with regard to relationships,
Well, what ends up happening is you don't get that connection and you don't get aco-pilot.
(25:18):
You get an adversary.
Now, if you have two guys at the front of an aircraft fighting over who's going to get toland the thing and, right, you get to take off this time, I get to land it next time,
that's not a collaboration, that's a competition and you damn skippy don't want your twopilots up there fighting about it.
So the relationship, you know, and of course this is the allegory you're promoting and I'mobviously agreeing with you.
(25:42):
The relationship is flying this airplane of life together and being in collaboration asyou do it, which involves the trust.
Therefore, when you're making decisions, it can't be what's in my best interest versuswhat's in your best interest.
It has to be, love you, so I want what's in your best interest.
And the other person feeling the same way, you know, is looking out for your best interestand isn't being all selfish.
(26:04):
That's how a good relationship works.
And that's how you get to the point where one plus one equals five or 10 or 50.
not just one plus one equals two.
But nowadays, I'd love for you to comment on this, Scott.
It seems like people have gotten to the point where they're getting into a relationshipexpecting only to get what they want.
There's not even a negotiation process anymore.
(26:24):
I'm marrying you so you can make me happy, or you can pay all the bills, or you can be myemotional support husband, or something like that.
And how dare this other person have needs?
They're there for me, not vice versa.
And then we wonder why people break up so much.
So I'm not even sure people are asking the right questions up front when they've metsomeone and they're deciding whether or not to get in a relationship with them.
(26:48):
I think we've lost our groundedness.
I don't think we know how to taxi down the runway, let alone take off anymore.
You know what I mean?
I think you're right on with that.
are right on.
Gentlemen, if you are coming from a perspective of collaboration and your spouse or spouseto be is coming from a perspective of ultimatum, it ain't gonna work.
(27:10):
It ain't gonna work.
The ultimatum is coming from a position of weakness and fear anyway.
They don't feel like they have the choices, so they're leaving the choice up to you.
You tell me what the choice is going to be.
Stay or leave.
Yes or no.
Right, it's the sense of control.
So you both have to be on this collaboration focus.
(27:32):
And if you think about this.
What a horrific flight, first of all, would be if your two co-pilots were notcommunicating together and one wanted to go this way and was grabbing the yoke and turning
it to the left and the other one was turning to the right or they weren't trusting eachother or one had to look over the other's or, you know, did you put the landing gear down?
(27:57):
Well, I don't trust that you put the landing gear down unless I see you put the landinggear down.
uh
Put it up again and put it down again so I can see you do.
I mean, what a nightmare, right?
Or what would happen if you had two co-pilots and one just stepped out and is like, yeah,I'm done.
Whatever movie that is, would surely star Leslie Nielsen.
Yeah.
(28:19):
Right.
man.
And you think about this, this piece that we're talking about with relationships, itdoesn't matter what the perspectives are of the two co-pilots.
One could be a hard line.
I will do a little political piece.
One could be a hardline Democrat and the other one could be a hardline Republican.
(28:42):
That doesn't matter.
One could be Jewish and one could be Christian.
That doesn't matter.
What matters is an agreement on two things.
What kind of flight do we want to have and where are we going?
That's it.
What's our destination?
What are we working towards and what kind of flight do we want to have?
(29:06):
We're gonna have a safe flight.
We're gonna have a secure flight.
We're gonna try to get there and knock off five minutes or we're gonna go around thiscloud front and that's gonna add 20 minutes, whatever it is.
There's an agreement on the destination and the environment on the way to the destination.
(29:28):
Or we could be stunt daredevils at the next air show.
As long as we're on the same page in terms of what this flight's going to be like.
Yes, you have to be on the same page.
And if when things come up, when things come and it's invariably going to come up, youhave to be able to identify those things early and respond to them together.
(29:57):
Have you ever met a couple who just loves to argue and you're saying to yourself what iswrong with these people until you realize they're perfect for each other.
They found each other and this is just how they roll.
Have you ever met a couple like that?
ah My last relationship was like that.
And it's actually kind of fun for them.
(30:17):
I know a couple, both of them have got to be on the autism spectrum in the exact same way.
Neither one of them understands humor.
They think anybody with a sense of humor who cracks jokes is stupid and dumb and should beridiculed.
And they're exactly alike.
And I'm sure they'll be married for 65 years happily.
It's insane.
I know couples who are both narcissists happily being co-narcissists at the expense ofeverybody else they know.
(30:44):
It's remarkable to me, but they're perfect for each other because like you just said, andI believe very wisely and eloquently, I think it's a wonderful analogy.
They decided what kind of flight they want to have and where they were going and they'rein agreement.
You know, you mentioned politics.
James Carville is married to a woman named Mary Matalin, M-A-T-A-L-I-N, and they've beenhappily married for like 40, maybe 50 years.
(31:08):
And if you know anything about James Carville, he's a very outspoken democratic pundit.
Meanwhile, his wife was George Herbert Walker Bush's campaign director.
I believe it was George Herbert Walker Bush.
It may have been George W.
Bush, but I think she goes further back than that.
And she's deeply Republican.
So I mean, these people can have marriages that go the distance despite politicaldifferences.
(31:31):
And you also mentioned in passing religious differences.
I think it's probably a lot easier and makes a lot more sense if a couple votes the sameway and prays to the same God, but it's not necessary, especially in the context you're
providing.
and I really appreciate it.
You could have Scott, you could have two Republicans sitting right next to each other onthe airplane and they could fight about the destination.
(31:53):
They could put it on the aircraft.
could, they wouldn't trust each other and you could have a miserable flight.
Absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
the funny thing, you know, I said that my spouse uh and I, you know, fought a lot.
We didn't at the very beginning of our relationship.
But see, here's the thing.
(32:13):
My spouse was not very assertive, not very assertive at all.
And I kept saying, you got to step up for yourself.
You got to speak up.
Stop taking people's crap.
Well, eventually they stopped taking other people's crap and you know who was included inthat list of people.
(32:37):
Yeah, buddy.
And you know, I did not get the memo and, and we had this, I remember this huge argumentthat we had.
And I mean, I, got thrown in my face.
You want me to stand up for myself?
You want me to stand up for myself?
I'm God damn it.
I'm standing up for myself.
(32:58):
And I, and I remember turning and saying, I'm sorry.
I said that incorrectly.
What I meant was I want you to stand up for, I realized what was going on.
And so this was humorous.
I I want you to stand up to everybody else on the planet, except me.
want you to count out me and I want you just to do whatever I say.
(33:20):
I mean, and we both laughed and shrugged it off.
And then we, you know, we built up kind of a thick skin around kind of our uh strongcompativeness to each other.
And I knew that that was just an outgrowth of stepping up to other people because it wascollaborative, because that was the place that we were negotiating and not negotiating.
(33:47):
We had talked about, we had planned and we accepted.
It didn't even faze us when we were arguing about different pieces.
It fazed other people.
They were like, God, you guys are at each other's throats.
And I remember turning to my mom, she's like, why do you guys fight all the time?
And I'm like,
Were we fighting?
It's not fighting, it's collaborative banter.
(34:12):
Well, I love it.
This has been a fantastic conversation and we could go on and on.
What I want to do though, is I want to point these guys to your book.
It's pretty new.
It's on Amazon.
And gentlemen, when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com front slash Amazon, you'll find ScottGraham's book, Cleared for Love, the Co-Pilot's Guide to Lasting Relationships, right
(34:33):
there at the top of the Amazon influencer queue at mountaintoppodcast.com front slashAmazon, especially if you're listening to this show within about a week or so of its
release.
And also, when you go to mountaintoppodcast.com, front slash co-pilot, C-O-P-I-L-O-T, itcan look like Copalot without that hyphen, and that probably sounds a little more
(34:58):
interesting to guys anyway, to Copalot.
But in any case, when they go to that URL, they will be sent to gscotgram.com.
What are they going to find there,
boy, well they will find all my books.
This co-piloting book is my 29th book.
And so they'll
You're making me feel like a slacker.
(35:19):
You know, I have to tell you, some of the books I just published, like six books thisspring, they were, but, people were like, wow, you just, you've really been pumping them
out.
And I'm like, well, some of these books I started like five years ago and I'm justfinishing them up now.
And so I was a cold winter.
And I had time on my hands, so I finished them up.
(35:39):
And so you'll find those.
You'll find links to my social media sites.
You'll find information about coaching and working with me if that's a piece thatinterests you.
But mostly you'll find my books and reviews and you'll even find this podcast listedthere.
Well, that warms my heart.
Very much the opposite of your winters up there in New England.
(36:02):
Hey, has there ever been a mild winter in New England up in your neck of the woods?
Let's be honest.
No, there's, there's, there's, had a really long summer.
Like I think it was 10 years ago.
had a, the longest summer in New England history.
went from July 1st to July 9th.
It was great.
It was great.
(36:22):
It was record.
record heat in the 60s.
Exactly.
Very good, very good.
G.
Scott Graham, you are an aviation enthusiast, an existential handyman, and an author.
And this has been a wonderful conversation, a whole lot of fun.
Thank you so much for dropping by.
I'm very, very pleased to make your acquaintance, and I hope you'll come back.
(36:43):
I definitely will.
Thanks, Scott.
It has been a privilege to be here.
And gentlemen, be good co-pilots.
Vet your co-pilots.
Don't get in the pilot seat when there's some, I don't know, someone that doesn't evenknow how to fly a plane.
Make sure that you're starting out the same place and you will be successful in yourrelationship.
(37:05):
Ugh, the places I could go in extending this episode just based on that last statementalone.
But I'm going to resist that temptation.
Anyway, thank you so much for joining us, Scott.
We're definitely going have you back maybe to discuss one of your other 29 books.
All right.
Hey guys, go to mountstoppodcast.com and visit our sponsors, Jocko Willinks Company Originin Maine, which is just up the street from Scott.
(37:30):
in the northeastern part of United States.
I'm sure they have similar winters up there, but it doesn't stop them from making greatstuff that's really going to make you feel like you leveled up your masculinity.
Origin in Maine, Hero's Soap, and the Keyport, all wonderfully paired sponsors for thisparticular show because all three of them level up your masculinity.
And when you use the coupon code, Mountain 10, with any of our sponsors, you'll get anadditional 10 % off at checkout.
(37:57):
And gentlemen, all you have to do is go to mountaintoppodcast.com.
All three are linked to from there.
Some of you have not talked to on the phone yet for 25 or 30 minutes won't cost you adime.
I will give you results in advance.
You can talk to me about, I don't know, whatever's going on in your life with the womenyou're either meeting or not meeting just yet.
And, or if you have any ideas for the show, any feedback you want to give me about theshow, I'm open to that too.
(38:22):
I'll put my fire suit on, whatever it takes.
You can sign up for that free call with me.
can be over phone or Zoom at mountotoppodcast.com as well.
And until I talk to you again real soon, this is Scott McKay from X and Y Communicationsin San Antonio, Texas.
Be good out there.
(38:42):
you
Mountain Top Podcast is produced by X and Y Communications, all rights reserved worldwide.
Be sure to visit www.mountaintoppodcast.com for show notes.
And while you're there, sign up for the free X and Y Communications newsletter for men.
(39:06):
This is Ed Roy Oldham speaking for the Mountain Top Podcast.
you
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