In this follow-up episode, Carmel Tanaka and Michael Ross reflect on the impact of personal ancestry, exploring resilience amid trauma and adversity. Carmel shares insights from her genealogical research and the unique challenges faced by Jewish communities in light of recent conflicts.
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(06:20):
Let's talk for and about theLGBT communities around the world.
I'm Michael Ross and this isstraight friendly. So we, we just
had some. Some chit chat hereand we're recording on a Friday just
(06:41):
before Shabbat, and I think wecannot not talk about food. So, Dennis
Gilbert, what you're making there?
Well, in the five minutesbreak that we had between recording
for this lovely podcast, Ipopped in my. My eggplant into the
(07:01):
oven and I'm going to roastit. I don't have a gas stove, which
is really so unfortunatebecause I can't get that quite the
charring. But I will broil itafterwards in order to as best as
I can with my electric stove,create some more flavor. But yeah,
(07:23):
I do like my eggplants. I'llprobably make a challah, which I
love to infuse kabocha squashinto the dough. So I call it Kabukala.
That's my Japanese recipe.Y'all need to go make it now, please.
(07:44):
Maybe you can send us also therecipe that we will put here in the
description.
Who knows online? I'll sendyou the link. You can put it down
right here.
It's so much around food.
Well, it adds a nice color. Itadds a little moisture and a nutty
flavor. It's excellent fordipping into stews. I am quite a
(08:07):
fan.
And, you know, when I onlyarrived to Canada, I arrived immediately
to Hope bc, where I was housesitting. Hope. Who could know about
Hope? Very symbolic place withits name. Hope to start my Canadian
journey. And the first timethat we met actually was for a Shabbat
(08:33):
dinner. And it was my firstever Shabbat dinner in Canada, which
was amazing. The food was soamazing. So I can only share my feelings,
not the food. But who knows,maybe here's another NGO or project.
(08:55):
Right? This is the joke in thefamily and among my friends now is,
you know, I tend to start anumber of projects. The good thing
is that I start them and Idevelop them and I nourish them and
they grow and they becomewonderful projects that can bring
me a lot of joy. Also a lot ofservice, but mostly joy. But I keep
(09:18):
seeing other ways to ignite mypassions. And my latest one, I just
had an epiphany. You know thatTV show Finding youg Roots on PBS
with Henry Louis Gates Jr.Okay. It's where all these celebrities
discover that they descendfrom yada, yada, yada, and they do
(09:39):
genealogical digging. I wantto be Henry. I want to be the person
who helps people discoverwhere they come from and their roots.
And I want to be the personthat dishes it to them.
Oh, wow. Wow. And we'reactually also going through. Both
of us are doing somegenealogical research. I. I'm waiting
(10:01):
for my DNA test results to seeif there are any relations also to.
To any Sephardic. We have sometail in our family that like all
in Belarus and Ukraine, butwith dark hair. And there's some
family story that maybe we. Weare been living in Spain, but who
(10:23):
knows?
So we also have this familytale. Oh, really? Yeah. But it doesn't
show up in my DNA. Although Ihave to say, when filling out DNA
tests and I did 23andMe, Iregret saying what I thought I was.
I should have left that blankbecause I do think that that does
(10:47):
tweak a little bit the answersbecause it's used as a reference
or as a guide becauseaccording to my mother, and this
is a recent trip to Israel,December 2022, before the protests
began, she just drops on methis whole info bomb that we're also
(11:10):
Sephardic. And I was like,you're telling us on the train to
Haifa. I'm like, sorry, for 37years you've been saying we're Ashkenazi.
She's like, yeah, we are. AndI'm like, but now you're saying we're
Spartan. It doesn't show up inmy DNA at least with 23andMe. But
(11:33):
perhaps if I did it withancestry, it might be different.
Who are you doing yours with?
I did actually ancestry and.But it goes only to around 200 years
ago back. And now I'm doingsome other tests. I forgot the company's
name, where it goes 600 yearsback. Yeah. Much more complicated
(11:59):
test to do. But yeah, in myancestry results, it was really shocking.
Like, I knew also in ourfamily, we're not really talking
about the past. This verySoviet. I know it's like from my.
My grandmother only like fewmonths before she passed away. I
(12:22):
finally. I like her likeBabula Grandma. We speak in Russian
like, I really want to know mystory. And then like literally from
the hospital, just in her lastmonths, I finally discovered some
of it of the stories. And thenin the DNA test, like, the result
(12:47):
was like shocking. Like forme, 100% Jewish, Ashkenazi, East
European. What also proves thestories that the previous ancestors
there were more Orthodox indifferent times? Actually, my parents
are a Shidekh. But yeah, also.
(13:08):
Michael, do you read Russian?I'm sorry, do you read Russian?
A little bit, yeah. But Ilearned only When I was like 17,
18, like, very like, once thefamily moved to Israel with this
whole Kurhi to what we call,you know, like, you have to delete
(13:31):
any. Almost all of your identities.
Same. Same in my family. Yeah.No more Polish, no more Yiddish,
only Hebrew. The reason why Iasked if you know, Russian us. I've
recently on a field date,picked up someone to help me translate
a bunch of documents that arefrom Belarus, then it might have
(13:55):
been Poland. That's where mygrandfather's. My Saba's side of
the family was from. Anyway,this is really diving into genealogy.
Nerd land. But I hope you'rehere for it, because I am that person
in the family. There's alwaysone person in the family who's super
into their roots and wantingto know where everyone comes from,
has the family tree. I think Ieven have, like, the scroll right
(14:17):
here. I can show you.
Like, show us.
This is the Atlasovich familytree that my mom made. And it, like,
hung in a room. You canactually see it hung around a room
in Israel on a string. And ata family reunion in 1990, something,
everyone went around andfilled in information. And, you know,
(14:39):
like, it's really depressingstuff because you see only a couple
lines continue, but themajority of them stop because everyone
was killed in the Holocaust.Now, why is this important to me
in my digging is I heard.Actually, it's even before I heard,
I was in front of the gravesof my grandparents in Haifa with
(15:01):
my mom, and I'm seeing thelist of all the names of the family
members who were killed in theShoah but didn't have proper burials.
I see it on my Safdas and Isee it also on my Sabas. But my Sabah's
list is hella small, and Icouldn't understand why it was so
small. Whereas my saftas waslike a laundry list. Everyone that
(15:22):
she remembered who was killed.And I asked my mom, and I was a child,
I said, you know, I know Sabawas married before and had a first
wife and had a baby, your halfsister. Why aren't they included
in this list? And my mom wasreally taken aback by that because
(15:44):
she had never put two and twotogether. That her half sister, that
she had a half sibling who waskilled in the Shoalam. And she remembered
having a very smallconversation, a very short and small
conversation with her fatherwhen she was younger, saying, you
know, wanting to inquire aboutthe first wife and the girl. And
(16:07):
he said, not only can I notremember their names, but I Can't
even remember her face. Andthat's how he dealt with the trauma
of losing his first family.And so I've been living with this,
how would you say? Just havingto accept that their names were lost
(16:30):
to time. And most recently Ihave been digging. Now my mom did
a fantastic job with thefamily tree, but this was before
online archives anddigitization and translation abilities
and a lot of information thatwas formerly not accessible unless
you were local and going toall of these places and digging through
the boxes, it's now available.So I just put in a few little, you
(16:54):
know, details here and there,put some feelers out to archives
and lo and behold found theregistration card of my grandfather
from Schlachten CDP Camp inBerlin. And listed are the two names
of his two wives. And thefirst one is Chanel Shuster and the
second one is ShifraAtlasovich, my safta. But I know
(17:21):
your last name is also you'vegot Schusters in your family. But
hear this. I just found outeven my mom doesn't know this yet,
so I have to tell her. I gotthe guy on field dating app to translate
a few documents and we found adocument that listed all the Jewish
tenants on Uneskaya street inPinsk, Belarus. And it turns out
(17:44):
there was a Hana Schustersharing a two bedroom apartment apartment
and a shared kitchen with aLeah Gottlieb, which is probably
most likely the wife of mygrandfather, Dov Gottlieb. And so
there's two people, so wedon't know why or how they might
(18:06):
have been sisters. I also knowthat my grandfather took on an alias,
a Moshe Abramovich, which isnot Dov Gottlieb. So we don't really
know who's who, what's what.Maybe there's a lot going on here
and I'm still trying to,trying to figure it out. But the
plot has thickened and we nowknow that my grandfather's testimony
(18:30):
at Yad Vashem quoted his firstwife being Leah Gottlieb. So then
why does his registration cardat Schlachten CDP Camp say Chane
Schuster? Tune in next timefor a future episode.
But maybe I'm, I mean likewho, who knows? Like the, the idea
(18:54):
of having a last name is, iskind of, kind of new. It's like at
least for, for those areas itbeen started being to be, to be used
only around 200 years ago. Andsometimes people were also called,
let's say my last name. Iwasn't, I wasn't born Rosovsky. Eros,
I'm saying, I mean, I was Rosoand I found out what my relatives
(19:18):
did in. In the US So I copypaste, But. But actually it's also,
let's say, like, the namemeans in Polish Russian, so the Jewish
Russians, they got that lastname that means Russian. And then
that area was once again underthe control of the Russians. And
(19:40):
in Russians, you had Ovsky tothe end. So actually my last name
meaning is double Russian. Idon't know. And I. But I didn't grow
up in Russian. Also, like inIsrael, it's so. In many things,
it's so modern and different,especially, let's say with. With
queer rights. That. Yeah, whoknows? But really interesting because
(20:04):
my father's mother, thatgrandmother that I thought about
earlier, Ina. Ina Schusterman,and all the. Who knows, Maybe. Maybe
our ancestors, we're family.
I mean, we're already family.Frozen family. Now you're stuck with
(20:24):
me.
Oh, my God, I'm so lucky.Please, please let me be stuck with
you. And actually, my mom,although she doesn't speak English,
but she would love to helpyou. And, you know, it's really interesting
that with all the crazy stuffhappening around the last year, since
October 7th, like, my mom isreal, was like, it's like a taboo.
(20:47):
We. We don't talk about theancestral stuff. But through one
of those DNA tests, I foundrelatives in Frankfurt in Germany.
And apparently in that area, Ihave relatives both from my mother's
side and my father's side. Sowith this my whole digital nomading,
Metudela stuff, we'll bespending the Christmas, Hanukkah
(21:11):
and the New Year's Eve inFrankfurt, actually, where I will
meet for the first time.
Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad foryou. So I'm planning to do my Berlin
and Bialystok trip next year.I can't, unfortunately, get into
Belarus. Pinsk is off thevenue. But.
(21:32):
Yeah, let's talk about it fora moment. Actually, let's talk about
the Belarus thing for amoment. You know, because when. When
this whole October 7 thingstarted, like, I. I was planning
on spending some time abroadbefore it happened, but. And I was
also working on creating aglobal startup for lgbtq. Plus, I'll
(21:53):
be honest, I decided to posewith it. It's really difficult for
me now to deal with venturecapital capital firms that boycott
me for being Israeli, which Ifind crazy. Crazy. And with all that
mess, all this traumahappening when I arrived. So, like,
the first flight I could findwas to Athens. And from Athens, I
(22:15):
continued To Portugal. And inPortugal, I received some really,
really, really nasty messageson Grindr. People could say, like,
it's written what languages Ispeak, and Hebrew is written. And
among the messages I receivedwas like, to fuck off from Ven, but
I'm not welcome. And I find itto be so, like, crazy and hypocritical,
(22:37):
because let's say Portugal orSpain, countries which I very much
love, but these are alsocountries where we don't have to
go that long ago in history.500. Yeah, only 500 years ago. So
this whole discourse of whatis being a refugee, what is, like,
(23:00):
all about, the stuff isreally, really crazy. And actually,
I was thinking, what if I willgo and just visit Belarus and I will
finally see the house where myfather grew up and my aunt and my
grandmother and grandfather,but I cannot go there, because for
(23:23):
us, as queer activists, it's.It's a huge risk. And sometimes even
I hear from queer.
Activists, even like anytraveler, it's not. I've been told,
unless you're on an organizedtour, there's no going on and off
the bus of the organized tour.So if you wanted to do a detour to
(23:44):
see where your family camefrom, that's not allowed. Only designated
places are allowed currently.
Oh, wow. My aunt told mesomething like that, and I didn't
believe her. But now that youalso say that, and this is also some
part of this, of the Jewishculture, like, just now, I uploaded
a new episode in the Hebrewversion, where for me, like, Hebrew
(24:08):
is my first language, whereit's easier for me to express myself
and have to have kind of moreartistic podcast meaning, like dealing
with my writing and more likekind of philosophical. And some people
even call me in Israel the gayrabbi. I'm not a rabbi, but I gave
(24:31):
an example, like, around thelast year, like, you know, I'm using
this term of digital nomad,but it's a very nice, polished term
for actually for being arefugee. But. And, you know, it's
(24:52):
something which is not onlythrough this year. And I think, like,
this traumatic year alsoreminded maybe us, or at least for
me. And also what I've beentalking in that Hebrew episode, I
was. It was like a music. Ifsome of you speak Hebrew, I would
really. It's like one of theepisodes. It took me a year to make
that episode. And I give herthe kind of comparison of Binyamin
(25:19):
Metudela. Do you know hisstory? So, Benyamin Metudela me from
Tudela, a village in Spain,and around the 11th or 12th century,
100 years, a decade before.Who was it? Microwave. No, I forgot,
(25:45):
some explorer. Anyway, soBinyamin Metudela was a rabbi from.
And he went for a journeywhere he was traveling around Europe
in the Middle east, visitingdifferent Jewish communities and
explaining about them. Andapparently this is one of the most
(26:07):
important historical evidenceof what lives looked not only of
Jewish communities, butgenerally what life looked like during
the medieval times. And he wasgoing through Italy and Greece and
(26:28):
Turkey. When he got toLebanon, what today is Lebanon, he
was in Saida and he got toAkko and to Haifa. He even explained
how in Haifa back then peopletried to create a new kind of Sanhedrin.
And he went to Jerusalem andwent back to the Galilee and then
(26:51):
continued, why not toDamascus, to Babylon, then to Yemen,
went to Egypt. And you know,in some way I think like today, these
days we're talking about thisdigital nomading and stuff, but back
then, no Schengen visa inEurope, you could visit also more
parts of the Middle East. Andthere's something that for me gives
(27:15):
so much inspiration about thatstory of this ongoing Jewish nomading,
you know, and received even inthese days.
Oh, I've definitely led aquasi nomadic life. I'm currently
(27:36):
in Vancouver because I've gotaging parents and I'm the primary
caregiver. But you know,without that as an attachment, I
don't think I feel like I needto be in any one particular place.
I feel like I can be at homeanywhere. And I have and I'm very
lucky to know a lot of peoplein a lot of different places. And
(28:01):
I mean, I just spent threeweeks in Montreal, 100% could totally
move there. I'm sure once I goto Berlin I'll probably feel similarly
as well. I could totally movehere. Yeah, I think for me being
able to travel has been themost. And I'm not just saying traveling,
(28:25):
going to the Eiffel Tower andseeing all the touristy spots. I'm
talking about living in aplace and spending time with locals
and experiencing what life islike. There has been the greatest
university education for meand on top of it, being able to go
to the very places where myancestors came from and walking in
(28:47):
the same villages where mygreat grandparents were has been
truly world opening and verygrounding experience. As someone
who grew up in the diasporacommunity on both sides of my family,
and I've only done half of myjourney, I'm now about to do the
(29:14):
other side of the family. Andit's time I've been putting it off
for a long time to do theHolocaust trip because I know exactly,
you know, how it's going togo. I'm going to be crying all the
time and I know it's going tobe super emotional. But I'm prepared
(29:36):
now and ready. It took me along time, but I'm ready now to do
that. So I wish you well onyour journey to Frankfurt and to
meet your family and record,if you can, some bits and pieces
and tell me how it goes.
Yes, yes, thank you. AndKomal, do you want also to tell a
(30:01):
bit, a bit more about theJapanese project?
Sure. What do you want to knowabout it?
Everything. Everything. Howcome? How come that there are Jewish
communities also in a placelike Japan? Please.
I mean, there's Jewish peopleeverywhere. Growing up, I truly thought
(30:27):
it was just my sister and Ibeing the only combination of Jewish
and Japanese until I met a. Atthe time, what I thought was a Japanese
Israeli who was just travelingthrough with her mom, her and her
sister. Turns out her and Igot to interview her for the Japanese
(30:51):
project. Her father, yes, didgrow up in Japan, but came from the
Korean community that stayedafter World War II. And so that was
really my only idea orknowledge of another mixed family
that looked somewhat similarto mine until the Japanese project.
(31:14):
I wanted to celebrate Jewishand Asian Heritage Month, which falls
within the month of May. And Igot together different combinations
of Jewish and Japanesefamilies and put a call out for a
zoom call during the pandemic.And before you knew it, it kind of
(31:35):
went viral. And we managed to,up until now, find 250 plus Japanese
individuals, couples andfamilies all over the world. And
I mean, it's been a project ofa lifetime and a dream come true
to meet other people like you,see what some of the similarities
(32:01):
have been like. See what someof the differences have been like.
And even though I have methundreds of us now, I still haven't
found my exact combo that Ifind in my stance. I still haven't
found an Israeli Ashkenaziwoman with a Japanese Canadian man
(32:31):
combination yet.
So I'm still holding out thisrecording. Who knows? Who knows?
Who knows?
Wait, are we doing, are wedoing matchmaking here?
People have asked, people haveasked and I, I think once the archives
goes live In May, next May2025, people will start listening
(32:54):
to interviews and see whateveryone who participated in the
project looks like. And I'msure they'll be coming and be like,
oh, do you know, if so and sois single, maybe, maybe there will
be some couples to come out ofthis. But more importantly, I just
(33:15):
want people to celebrateJapanese joy. It's been a really
tough time to be doing thisproject throughout this particular
year. Since October 7th, myproject, I've been collecting interviews
for three years now. And sonow that I'm coming back and, you
know, circling back to some ofthe interviewees and being like,
(33:36):
okay, I've processed yourinterview. Can you please take a
look at this and let me knowif there's anything that you'd like
to edit out. I've beenreceiving some difficult feedback
that this year has been reallydetrimental to the mental health
of a lot of people. They also,you know, not only do they not have
the capacity to look at thisinterview, but some of the contents
(34:01):
are triggering for them. Theymight not feel comfortable sharing
anymore the fact that they'reJewish publicly. They might not feel
comfortable sharing theiranswer that they previously had on,
you know, how are theynavigating the Israel and Palestine
conflict as Jewish andJapanese people? Which is really
(34:24):
difficult to hear that that'swhat they're struggling with because
it unfortunately is takingfront center over some of the more
light questions like what aresome of your favorite Japanese recipes
in your family? And how do youcelebrate Japanese joy? So I'm really
hoping that we will be able tocome back to a time when we can feel
(34:56):
comfortable sharing ourstories. I think it's really important
as a community to share ourstories and to be able to not only
share them among otherJapanese community members, but also
with our friends, our familyand beyond. And who knows, maybe
this will encourage othercommunity groups that are mixed to
do a similar oral historyproject and share their stories.
(35:19):
The more we, I think, shareour lived experience, the better.
So here, here.
The production of this episodecame to reality thanks to the support
of the Friedrich Naumannfoundation for Freedom in Jerusalem.
We were talking about theJapanese project and actually I have
(35:39):
numerous questions here, butwe really will have to finish in
maximum, maximum, maximum 20minutes and Yala go.
Yeah, so I was retelling withyou some of the reactions that people
I interviewed up to, eventhree years ago are experiencing
(36:02):
now as of October 7th, and howdifficult it has been for people
to just, you know, function ona daily basis, let alone, you know,
review their content, whichcan be up to an hour long interview.
I mean, that's, I think at thebest of times, most people don't
like to listen to their ownvoice or their own face. And here
(36:26):
I am asking them to do this ata really difficult time. So I've.
I'm very thankful to you,Michael, because you came at a time
in my life when you encouragedme to enter the world of AI. I was
very resistant to it, if youcan remember. And I discovered a
(36:50):
program, I know it's thecompetitor of Riverside, but it's
Descript and it has allowed meto remove the hours of video editing
which I am not an expert in,and really made it user friendly
for me to delete portions ofinterviews with just a click of a
(37:10):
button, just the removing ofcertain text and it does the video
editing for you. And that hasenabled me to really not lament over
the hours of editing that Ialready do per interview for the
Japanese project. Becausebefore I don't think people fully
understood how much time ittakes to video edit and to render
(37:34):
the videos. And so when you'reasking for really intense edits like
blurring of the face and voicedistortion and remove this and remove
that, you know, that adds alot of work to my plate and I can
be processing these interviewsuntil I'm 80 years old. I want it
to be sooner rather than laterthat people get to hear these interviews.
(37:56):
So I thank you for that and Iam very happy to announce my surprise
to you was you did not know itwas coming. After a year of being
depressed myself over notbeing able to do the project and
have people be happy aboutparticipating in the project because
(38:17):
we're all in depressed funksat the moment, I successfully with
description did my firstinterview full edit and I sent it
to the interviewee to review.And that is a huge win for me after
really truly over a year offeeling unproductive, unable to move,
(38:40):
really stagnant energy. And Icouldn't have done it without you
and a few select people who'vebeen helping me behind the scenes.
So thank you.
Wow, thank you so much. Khmer.Thank you to you. I didn't know I
was. I remember the struggle,let's say. Wow, wow. You know, actually
(39:06):
like I'm now also uploadingfew episodes about queer entrepreneurship
and some some of the contentthat I lecture about. I teach entrepreneurship
and not related to LGBTQ plusstuff and 2s to spirit which I learned
here and I decided totranslate some production from Hebrew
(39:27):
to English so our listenerscan see that. And actually I think
it's very interesting andimportant what you have just raised
because I see entrepreneurshipas change making as I said. And there
is so much of tikkun to do andone of the things which I'm worried
(39:48):
the most about entrepreneurstalking from My personal experience
is a burnout. And a burnout ofchange makers is less tikkun, less
creation of a better place,especially in a time where it's very
needed. And I'm very thankfulfor you for. For sharing that because
(40:11):
I do see that, how everyonecan be a change. Change makers for
me many times, you know, likethis whole field of this entrepreneurial
field and the startup fieldand the venture capital field is
very, very masculine, very.And now, but also been working with
(40:36):
that. I wanted to work andcreate some global startup. And like
startup is like, it's very,very, very difficult. I didn't share
it actually up until now on mypodcast, but a few days before October
7th, I decided finally for apartnership and I had a partner for
the startup, a cto, chiefTechnological officer who's a friend,
(41:01):
was a friend of mine from theage of seven or eight. And when October
7th happened, the day after ortwo days after, I wrote some posts
on Facebook and unfortunatelyhe decided to disconnect from me
(41:21):
completely. Up until today,even now, I wrote him. I mean, okay,
but I didn't write foranything. You know, it was something
very much about humanity. Imean, like, how. How many people
can we lose? How many? I mean,like, I do see every soul as. It's
a very tragic moment, I think,not only in current and modern history,
(41:43):
but probably generally, likeit's probably. And I really hope
that there will be at Kuma,that there will be a revival from
this very difficult situation.And if we will not act, if we will
not bring message ofreconciliation, of showing, diversity,
(42:04):
of showing. I do believe thatactually entrepreneurs who are minorities,
who have differentbackgrounds, have a lot of potential
and a lot of kind of lifeexperience, which is very, very important
because we're solving manytimes we're solving real problems.
(42:24):
And yes, there are differenttools that can be very, very beneficial.
I would say that even like inthis year, most of my lectures were
canceled and also the timethat we met, I was also very depressed
being alone in this veryexpensive country. Very expensive,
Very expensive. I have to say,very. Did I say it's expensive here
(42:45):
in Canada? Very expensive. Youknow, wherever place I posted, like
if some place I know that Ican find some hosting family or stuff.
I was feeling like that manyof the people, including the Israelis
and the Jews, they were onlytrying to sell to me and make money
and, you know, communities andfinding those people. And I'm so
(43:06):
glad that, you know, actuallyI got to you through our cantor,
Sharon. I was interested.Yeah, yes, yes, thank you. Cheryl,
thank you very much. Really, Imean like this is really this, you
know, like we are in a timethat this whole discourse about community
(43:33):
or communities. I'm sorry,worth nothing. Like in some. In some
place. And it's so wonderfulto find actually that in this time
of yes, digital media and allthat it has the pros here, like with
the archives and stuff, thefact that we can record now, the
fact that we can use differenttools that can enlarge our impact.
(43:53):
But also like I do find somehope that with all this difficulty,
like let's not separatebetween people, but let's try to
connect. And if now somethingis very much changing, probably our
identities of all everyone arechanging in this year because of
(44:17):
the crazy stuff happening. ButI really see like this is just like
one example how a cantor,almost a rabbi. Like maybe we are
now in a time that there is amore need actually for that role
that rabbis had. Like is beinga rabbi is just about preaching and
(44:40):
teaching some Bible phrases.Or maybe it's something that also.
Yeah. Like makes thisconnection that connected between
us or with Shidokhim. Yeah,actually I would prefer to have some
Yente instead of using Grindr,to be honest.
Well, you also make aninteresting, you know, case because
(45:04):
you're talking also about yourbusiness partner that you had in
that over a few posts that youdid online that was able to erase
a real human relationship thatyou had with someone who's both on
a friend level and a businesspartner level. And we're seeing this
right across the board. Whatyou did and did not post or did not
(45:26):
say on your various differentsocial media platforms is now being
used against you by people whoyou've had very real relationships
with. And this is what Ireferred to earlier in this interview
was about the frequency offriendship ruptures that I've experienced
(45:47):
just because I'm Jewish andIsraeli and for stuff I've said and
haven't said, God forbid thatI am for all the community groups
and all the victims that havebeen impacted by this ongoing war
and not just one particularside that is hasn't won the hearts
of many people, unfortunately.And so I think we live also in a
(46:13):
really unique time where we'rebeing assessed for what kind of people
we are based on what we virtuesignal to the world. And that erases
our on the ground activismthat we've done for years.
Yes, yes.
(46:33):
And it's an erasure of and areal disrespect towards people who
truly like, I don't need toprove to you how many Israeli, Palestinian
or Palestinian friends that Ihave from Gaza or from West Bank.
No, that is irrelevant and Idon't need to share that information
(46:55):
with you in order to prove toyou and the rest of the world that
I am an ally and that I'm forsomeone for peace and coexistence
and that I do care foreveryone's lives. However, this is
the world we live in now wherewe can't mourn and grieve and vocalize
the pain that we're goingthrough as Israelis and Jews without
(47:16):
also mentioning that we grieveand mourn for the loss of life on
the Palestinian side. It'slike the zero sum game which doesn't
offer the fact that we canvery much mourn for more than one
community. And I don't have toat the time of my grieving need to
(47:37):
also virtue signal to otherpeople that I'm also grieving for
a community that is not my own.
Yeah, there was some, somesuggestion here now, but Carmel,
we have a lot to talk about. Ivery cherish that and I thank you
for like phrasing followingsomething which I didn't have completely.
The phrasing for the fact thatlike in our grief we don't own anything
(48:03):
to anyone and showing somelittle of respect to people who've
been, you know. Well, it'svery ironically the few very last
episodes that I produced inEnglish just before, before the.
The COVID was when IUnfortunately a teenager, 18 years
(48:25):
old who's a D from the Galileein Israel. She was murdered for being
lesbian. She was murdered byher brother. And when event happened
among the queer organizationsin Israel and I'm quite known as
(48:45):
the black sheep there.Straight friendly by the way was
supposed to be. My vision wasto do it through the organizations
especially the Gouda, but theydidn't want to cooperate. And then
eventually I found of this ishow I've got to create straight friendly
actually. And thecommemoration event that happened
(49:08):
for her death was just a smallone in Tel Aviv. And I was like,
no, I mean like we, we have todo something. We have to do something
where it happened which is inthe Galilee, just at the entrance
of some Arab speaking villagevery close to my hometown and very
(49:33):
close. I was planning beforethis war to move from Haifa to the
upper Galilee and just next towhere I was planning to move and
where I have friends from allcolors, size, backgrounds, languages.
And I was like no, this is theplace where I live. This is like
I already lost once some, somequeer Arab Friend from. From the
(49:58):
area. And no, I'm. No, we haveto do something. We have to do something
and work on the. On. Oneducation here. And I. I was very
afraid of, you know, beingthis white cisgender girl going and
like showing the truth or thelight or something. Like, you know,
I'm very. Trying to be very,very sensitive with it. But on the
(50:20):
other hand, for being a Jewishactivist in Israel and for having
the Israeli version ofstraight friendly and with all my
activism, I said I have aprivilege that I can make a phone
call to the headquarters ofthe police of Israel and get right
away the confirmation to dosuch a protest to commemorate her
(50:43):
memory. And we did that. Andwe received so many comments of activists
who. Or people who are likeArab speaking, LGBT from the area
calling me, telling me, look,you're doing something very important,
but are you sure you want todo it? Like, we cannot come because
for us it can be dangerousbecause our community is less accepting
(51:06):
here. A situation of a girlthat got murdered, you know, and
we did organize that. We didorganize that event. It was very,
very important actually thoseepisodes, like, it was important
for me also that her memorywill not be lost and that there will
be a real investigation. Soit's actually, you know, I'm just
(51:26):
a podcaster and an activist,but I never thought that like I will
have few episodes that will bepart of a police investigation, you
know, and. And you know, likeit was supposed also to become to
some. Let's say having thiskind of very horrible. I'm being
(51:50):
currently boycotted by severalventure capitals who are LGBT from
several countries. This is whycurrently where I not doing a startup
which supposed to literallysave the life of. Of lots of people
and help like, help to makethe life a bit easier and nicer for
quite a big group of peoplearound the world. Not measuring or
(52:14):
like judging by any kind of.And like, you know, like it was so
disrespectful. And I reallythank you for what you just said
because the words are veryimportant. You know, and I was also
in this kind of. Yeah. Ofdepression of this whole last year
of like. Like what the isgoing on. I mean like. But you know
(52:36):
what? Like it's about goinglike having the. Having the truth.
Having that. Like, I reallythank you. Like, we really as our
listener can probably listenlike that little that get her wunch
made. Like really. I'm sothankful for it. And I really hope
that here it will cherish. Ilove you really. And I really hope
(53:00):
that here. But we will empowermore people. But it's like, it's.
I think it's really importantto say here, but it's. It's not about
like, only like understandingthe pain, but like, I would, I would
use your terminology and Iwill be even more dramatic, of course,
a gay drama queen. But like,to say, seriously, like, and I'm
saying to all of ourlisteners, no matter if you're like
(53:22):
Jewish, LGBT or allies or notJewish, any other kind of identity
or personality, it's veryimportant that you will be who you
are. And whoever ever, everthinks that he can boycott you or
can tell anything. And by theway, in Judaism, boycotting coret
is the most horriblepunishment, almost similar to death
(53:46):
punish, to make someone to becorrect, to be cutted out of their
communities. So fuck them all.Okay? The truth is with us.
I also think it's important toweave into this that people who have
(54:10):
already gone through traumaand more than one trauma tend to
be a little more resilient.And so when October 7th happened,
I mean, it obviously triggeredfor me memories of my cousin's shooting
and just all the shootingsthat have happened in general to
(54:33):
the Jewish community in NorthAmerica and also to the queer community.
And so I think for me, I wasable to kick into gear a little bit
more quickly and offer somesort of leadership in the Jewish
(54:54):
queer trans community outsideof Israel, because I was already
subjected to trauma. And Ifound that most Israelis that I knew
were able to function a lotbetter than some other people in
(55:18):
the Jewish community becausethis is the reality that we've constantly
been dealing with and livingwith. So. And I see that today. I'm.
I'm not trying to comparetrauma or go into oppression Olympics,
but they're really can besaid. And I'm sure there's PhDs out
there working on this or havealready worked on it, that if you
(55:42):
are part of an alreadymarginalized community and have experienced
trauma, then when more traumahappens. Yeah, you get triggered.
But it's. It's not the initialshock like vaccination. It is. It's
like being poisoned in littleincrements at every single time so
(56:03):
that when more poison comesyour way, you don't completely lose
the ability to function. Yeah.And that's a sad reality that our
trauma has inoculated us tomore trauma.
But also made us to bestronger. And maybe this is also
(56:24):
a very important message in amessage of also of education and
also of. In these times, wehave to acknowledge diversity and
the differences that, let'ssay like being in Canada, let's say,
or in other country, likeJewish or Israeli is not necessarily
(56:46):
the same. And being comingfrom a rural area, for instance,
and so on and so on. We haveto acknowledge the differences. At
the same time also, I reallydo believe that the cooperation is
very important because whatyou just said, I wasn't thinking
about, but I think it'sreally, really important and interesting
(57:08):
and I wish that we could seeand maybe through our content we
will be able a little bit atleast to. To. To be part of fostering
that. I do believe thatIsraeli LGBT and allies can learn
a lot from some of thesynagogues, the queer synagogues,
(57:32):
at least those in the US WhichI'm more familiar with. And the same
time also the Jewish people inthe diaspora, let's say, can also
learn a lot from the Israelisand the LGBT is talking about this
multilevel of trauma ordifficulty and the revival out of
it and being strong, likeunity is very, very important. It
(57:58):
doesn't mean that like we haveto agree about everything, but we
can be definitely companionsto each other and hopefully learn
from our history. We didn'thave a time to talk about it this
time, that's for sure. We'llhave to do other episodes in the
future, but let's say for nowwe didn't even talk and we would
not have the time.Unfortunately, also about some of
(58:21):
them, like, there were also inCanada, some kind of. If we're talking
about Japanese heritage herein Canada, I didn't know until a
few months ago of my visitthat there were even like a kind
of concentration camps. Right.Also for two spirit to indigenous,
there were also, I mean, likeprobably every society unfortunately
(58:45):
has some dark sides as well,but we really have to learn about
them no matter if there's noright or wrong here. It's about acknowledging
the pain and learning,learning, try to make it better.
I love that you're optimisticthat we have to be more cooperative.
(59:08):
I feel I'm just really jadednow and no longer have the compassion
that I once had in my tank.I'm burnt out. I'm, you know, having
done community engagement forso long and so many years and then
find out that just because ofmy nationality that I hold a citizenship
(59:32):
to a country. I can becanceled despite all the years of
work and support that I'vedone for other communities has been
quite traumatizing for me. Solike you, I've been. I've lost business,
I've lost partnerships,community partners. It's like my
(59:57):
grandfather used to say, whichmy mom keeps repeating. And he said
this in Yiddish, which I, Idon't remember how to say it, but
something along the lines ofit's difficult being a Jew.
It is, it is, but this is whatit is. Yet 22% of Nobel Prize winners
(01:00:20):
are Jews. The amount ofstartups that start in Israel, it
has some, some reason forthat. I don't think that it's about
the genes or somethingbiological, inherited, but maybe
it's something cultural. And Ithink that minorities have actually
like groups that struggle.They're also like every problem is
an opportunity and oh, we havesome real problems and real opportunities
(01:00:46):
to solve. And also the messageof like, hey, like what? We have
just, just been talking aboutthis like you can't burn out the
people who work for yourcommunities. We are standing on the
shoulders of our previousancestors and activists and there
will be the others that willbe standing on our shoulders. Amen.
(01:01:09):
Amen to that.
Carmel. Thank you very, verymuch. Todagha. I really, I love you
dear. I'm so glad that we didthat and I hope that we gave some
food for thought for ourlisteners. Also some apartment and
also some, some selfexamination, especially now around
(01:01:30):
the holidays. It's veryimportant so some Shabbat Shalom.
Thank you very.
Let's talk for and about theLGBT communities around the world.
I'm Michael Ross and this isstraight friendly. So we, we just
had some. Some chit chat hereand we're recording on a Friday just
(06:41):
before Shabbat, and I think wecannot not talk about food. So, Dennis
Gilbert, what you're making there?
Well, in the five minutesbreak that we had between recording
for this lovely podcast, Ipopped in my. My eggplant into the
(07:01):
oven and I'm going to roastit. I don't have a gas stove, which
is really so unfortunatebecause I can't get that quite the
charring. But I will broil itafterwards in order to as best as
I can with my electric stove,create some more flavor. But yeah,
(07:23):
I do like my eggplants. I'llprobably make a challah, which I
love to infuse kabocha squashinto the dough. So I call it Kabukala.
That's my Japanese recipe.Y'all need to go make it now, please.
(07:44):
Maybe you can send us also therecipe that we will put here in the
description.
Who knows online? I'll sendyou the link. You can put it down
right here.
It's so much around food.
Well, it adds a nice color. Itadds a little moisture and a nutty
flavor. It's excellent fordipping into stews. I am quite a
(08:07):
fan.
And, you know, when I onlyarrived to Canada, I arrived immediately
to Hope bc, where I was housesitting. Hope. Who could know about
Hope? Very symbolic place withits name. Hope to start my Canadian
journey. And the first timethat we met actually was for a Shabbat
(08:33):
dinner. And it was my firstever Shabbat dinner in Canada, which
was amazing. The food was soamazing. So I can only share my feelings,
not the food. But who knows,maybe here's another NGO or project.
(08:55):
Right? This is the joke in thefamily and among my friends now is,
you know, I tend to start anumber of projects. The good thing
is that I start them and Idevelop them and I nourish them and
they grow and they becomewonderful projects that can bring
me a lot of joy. Also a lot ofservice, but mostly joy. But I keep
(09:18):
seeing other ways to ignite mypassions. And my latest one, I just
had an epiphany. You know thatTV show Finding youg Roots on PBS
with Henry Louis Gates Jr.Okay. It's where all these celebrities
discover that they descendfrom yada, yada, yada, and they do
(09:39):
genealogical digging. I wantto be Henry. I want to be the person
who helps people discoverwhere they come from and their roots.
And I want to be the personthat dishes it to them.
Oh, wow. Wow. And we'reactually also going through. Both
of us are doing somegenealogical research. I. I'm waiting
(10:01):
for my DNA test results to seeif there are any relations also to.
To any Sephardic. We have sometail in our family that like all
in Belarus and Ukraine, butwith dark hair. And there's some
family story that maybe we. Weare been living in Spain, but who
(10:23):
knows?
So we also have this familytale. Oh, really? Yeah. But it doesn't
show up in my DNA. Although Ihave to say, when filling out DNA
tests and I did 23andMe, Iregret saying what I thought I was.
I should have left that blankbecause I do think that that does
(10:47):
tweak a little bit the answersbecause it's used as a reference
or as a guide becauseaccording to my mother, and this
is a recent trip to Israel,December 2022, before the protests
began, she just drops on methis whole info bomb that we're also
(11:10):
Sephardic. And I was like,you're telling us on the train to
Haifa. I'm like, sorry, for 37years you've been saying we're Ashkenazi.
She's like, yeah, we are. AndI'm like, but now you're saying we're
Spartan. It doesn't show up inmy DNA at least with 23andMe. But
(11:33):
perhaps if I did it withancestry, it might be different.
Who are you doing yours with?
I did actually ancestry and.But it goes only to around 200 years
ago back. And now I'm doingsome other tests. I forgot the company's
name, where it goes 600 yearsback. Yeah. Much more complicated
(11:59):
test to do. But yeah, in myancestry results, it was really shocking.
Like, I knew also in ourfamily, we're not really talking
about the past. This verySoviet. I know it's like from my.
My grandmother only like fewmonths before she passed away. I
(12:22):
finally. I like her likeBabula Grandma. We speak in Russian
like, I really want to know mystory. And then like literally from
the hospital, just in her lastmonths, I finally discovered some
of it of the stories. And thenin the DNA test, like, the result
(12:47):
was like shocking. Like forme, 100% Jewish, Ashkenazi, East
European. What also proves thestories that the previous ancestors
there were more Orthodox indifferent times? Actually, my parents
are a Shidekh. But yeah, also.
(13:08):
Michael, do you read Russian?I'm sorry, do you read Russian?
A little bit, yeah. But Ilearned only When I was like 17,
18, like, very like, once thefamily moved to Israel with this
whole Kurhi to what we call,you know, like, you have to delete
(13:31):
any. Almost all of your identities.
Same. Same in my family. Yeah.No more Polish, no more Yiddish,
only Hebrew. The reason why Iasked if you know, Russian us. I've
recently on a field date,picked up someone to help me translate
a bunch of documents that arefrom Belarus, then it might have
(13:55):
been Poland. That's where mygrandfather's. My Saba's side of
the family was from. Anyway,this is really diving into genealogy.
Nerd land. But I hope you'rehere for it, because I am that person
in the family. There's alwaysone person in the family who's super
into their roots and wantingto know where everyone comes from,
has the family tree. I think Ieven have, like, the scroll right
(14:17):
here. I can show you.
Like, show us.
This is the Atlasovich familytree that my mom made. And it, like,
hung in a room. You canactually see it hung around a room
in Israel on a string. And ata family reunion in 1990, something,
everyone went around andfilled in information. And, you know,
(14:39):
like, it's really depressingstuff because you see only a couple
lines continue, but themajority of them stop because everyone
was killed in the Holocaust.Now, why is this important to me
in my digging is I heard.Actually, it's even before I heard,
I was in front of the gravesof my grandparents in Haifa with
(15:01):
my mom, and I'm seeing thelist of all the names of the family
members who were killed in theShoah but didn't have proper burials.
I see it on my Safdas and Isee it also on my Sabas. But my Sabah's
list is hella small, and Icouldn't understand why it was so
small. Whereas my saftas waslike a laundry list. Everyone that
(15:22):
she remembered who was killed.And I asked my mom, and I was a child,
I said, you know, I know Sabawas married before and had a first
wife and had a baby, your halfsister. Why aren't they included
in this list? And my mom wasreally taken aback by that because
(15:44):
she had never put two and twotogether. That her half sister, that
she had a half sibling who waskilled in the Shoalam. And she remembered
having a very smallconversation, a very short and small
conversation with her fatherwhen she was younger, saying, you
know, wanting to inquire aboutthe first wife and the girl. And
(16:07):
he said, not only can I notremember their names, but I Can't
even remember her face. Andthat's how he dealt with the trauma
of losing his first family.And so I've been living with this,
how would you say? Just havingto accept that their names were lost
(16:30):
to time. And most recently Ihave been digging. Now my mom did
a fantastic job with thefamily tree, but this was before
online archives anddigitization and translation abilities
and a lot of information thatwas formerly not accessible unless
you were local and going toall of these places and digging through
the boxes, it's now available.So I just put in a few little, you
(16:54):
know, details here and there,put some feelers out to archives
and lo and behold found theregistration card of my grandfather
from Schlachten CDP Camp inBerlin. And listed are the two names
of his two wives. And thefirst one is Chanel Shuster and the
second one is ShifraAtlasovich, my safta. But I know
(17:21):
your last name is also you'vegot Schusters in your family. But
hear this. I just found outeven my mom doesn't know this yet,
so I have to tell her. I gotthe guy on field dating app to translate
a few documents and we found adocument that listed all the Jewish
tenants on Uneskaya street inPinsk, Belarus. And it turns out
(17:44):
there was a Hana Schustersharing a two bedroom apartment apartment
and a shared kitchen with aLeah Gottlieb, which is probably
most likely the wife of mygrandfather, Dov Gottlieb. And so
there's two people, so wedon't know why or how they might
(18:06):
have been sisters. I also knowthat my grandfather took on an alias,
a Moshe Abramovich, which isnot Dov Gottlieb. So we don't really
know who's who, what's what.Maybe there's a lot going on here
and I'm still trying to,trying to figure it out. But the
plot has thickened and we nowknow that my grandfather's testimony
(18:30):
at Yad Vashem quoted his firstwife being Leah Gottlieb. So then
why does his registration cardat Schlachten CDP Camp say Chane
Schuster? Tune in next timefor a future episode.
But maybe I'm, I mean likewho, who knows? Like the, the idea
(18:54):
of having a last name is, iskind of, kind of new. It's like at
least for, for those areas itbeen started being to be, to be used
only around 200 years ago. Andsometimes people were also called,
let's say my last name. Iwasn't, I wasn't born Rosovsky. Eros,
I'm saying, I mean, I was Rosoand I found out what my relatives
(19:18):
did in. In the US So I copypaste, But. But actually it's also,
let's say, like, the namemeans in Polish Russian, so the Jewish
Russians, they got that lastname that means Russian. And then
that area was once again underthe control of the Russians. And
(19:40):
in Russians, you had Ovsky tothe end. So actually my last name
meaning is double Russian. Idon't know. And I. But I didn't grow
up in Russian. Also, like inIsrael, it's so. In many things,
it's so modern and different,especially, let's say with. With
queer rights. That. Yeah, whoknows? But really interesting because
(20:04):
my father's mother, thatgrandmother that I thought about
earlier, Ina. Ina Schusterman,and all the. Who knows, Maybe. Maybe
our ancestors, we're family.
I mean, we're already family.Frozen family. Now you're stuck with
(20:24):
me.
Oh, my God, I'm so lucky.Please, please let me be stuck with
you. And actually, my mom,although she doesn't speak English,
but she would love to helpyou. And, you know, it's really interesting
that with all the crazy stuffhappening around the last year, since
October 7th, like, my mom isreal, was like, it's like a taboo.
(20:47):
We. We don't talk about theancestral stuff. But through one
of those DNA tests, I foundrelatives in Frankfurt in Germany.
And apparently in that area, Ihave relatives both from my mother's
side and my father's side. Sowith this my whole digital nomading,
Metudela stuff, we'll bespending the Christmas, Hanukkah
(21:11):
and the New Year's Eve inFrankfurt, actually, where I will
meet for the first time.
Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad foryou. So I'm planning to do my Berlin
and Bialystok trip next year.I can't, unfortunately, get into
Belarus. Pinsk is off thevenue. But.
(21:32):
Yeah, let's talk about it fora moment. Actually, let's talk about
the Belarus thing for amoment. You know, because when. When
this whole October 7 thingstarted, like, I. I was planning
on spending some time abroadbefore it happened, but. And I was
also working on creating aglobal startup for lgbtq. Plus, I'll
(21:53):
be honest, I decided to posewith it. It's really difficult for
me now to deal with venturecapital capital firms that boycott
me for being Israeli, which Ifind crazy. Crazy. And with all that
mess, all this traumahappening when I arrived. So, like,
the first flight I could findwas to Athens. And from Athens, I
(22:15):
continued To Portugal. And inPortugal, I received some really,
really, really nasty messageson Grindr. People could say, like,
it's written what languages Ispeak, and Hebrew is written. And
among the messages I receivedwas like, to fuck off from Ven, but
I'm not welcome. And I find itto be so, like, crazy and hypocritical,
(22:37):
because let's say Portugal orSpain, countries which I very much
love, but these are alsocountries where we don't have to
go that long ago in history.500. Yeah, only 500 years ago. So
this whole discourse of whatis being a refugee, what is, like,
(23:00):
all about, the stuff isreally, really crazy. And actually,
I was thinking, what if I willgo and just visit Belarus and I will
finally see the house where myfather grew up and my aunt and my
grandmother and grandfather,but I cannot go there, because for
(23:23):
us, as queer activists, it's.It's a huge risk. And sometimes even
I hear from queer.
Activists, even like anytraveler, it's not. I've been told,
unless you're on an organizedtour, there's no going on and off
the bus of the organized tour.So if you wanted to do a detour to
(23:44):
see where your family camefrom, that's not allowed. Only designated
places are allowed currently.
Oh, wow. My aunt told mesomething like that, and I didn't
believe her. But now that youalso say that, and this is also some
part of this, of the Jewishculture, like, just now, I uploaded
a new episode in the Hebrewversion, where for me, like, Hebrew
(24:08):
is my first language, whereit's easier for me to express myself
and have to have kind of moreartistic podcast meaning, like dealing
with my writing and more likekind of philosophical. And some people
even call me in Israel the gayrabbi. I'm not a rabbi, but I gave
(24:31):
an example, like, around thelast year, like, you know, I'm using
this term of digital nomad,but it's a very nice, polished term
for actually for being arefugee. But. And, you know, it's
(24:52):
something which is not onlythrough this year. And I think, like,
this traumatic year alsoreminded maybe us, or at least for
me. And also what I've beentalking in that Hebrew episode, I
was. It was like a music. Ifsome of you speak Hebrew, I would
really. It's like one of theepisodes. It took me a year to make
that episode. And I give herthe kind of comparison of Binyamin
(25:19):
Metudela. Do you know hisstory? So, Benyamin Metudela me from
Tudela, a village in Spain,and around the 11th or 12th century,
100 years, a decade before.Who was it? Microwave. No, I forgot,
(25:45):
some explorer. Anyway, soBinyamin Metudela was a rabbi from.
And he went for a journeywhere he was traveling around Europe
in the Middle east, visitingdifferent Jewish communities and
explaining about them. Andapparently this is one of the most
(26:07):
important historical evidenceof what lives looked not only of
Jewish communities, butgenerally what life looked like during
the medieval times. And he wasgoing through Italy and Greece and
(26:28):
Turkey. When he got toLebanon, what today is Lebanon, he
was in Saida and he got toAkko and to Haifa. He even explained
how in Haifa back then peopletried to create a new kind of Sanhedrin.
And he went to Jerusalem andwent back to the Galilee and then
(26:51):
continued, why not toDamascus, to Babylon, then to Yemen,
went to Egypt. And you know,in some way I think like today, these
days we're talking about thisdigital nomading and stuff, but back
then, no Schengen visa inEurope, you could visit also more
parts of the Middle East. Andthere's something that for me gives
(27:15):
so much inspiration about thatstory of this ongoing Jewish nomading,
you know, and received even inthese days.
Oh, I've definitely led aquasi nomadic life. I'm currently
(27:36):
in Vancouver because I've gotaging parents and I'm the primary
caregiver. But you know,without that as an attachment, I
don't think I feel like I needto be in any one particular place.
I feel like I can be at homeanywhere. And I have and I'm very
lucky to know a lot of peoplein a lot of different places. And
(28:01):
I mean, I just spent threeweeks in Montreal, 100% could totally
move there. I'm sure once I goto Berlin I'll probably feel similarly
as well. I could totally movehere. Yeah, I think for me being
able to travel has been themost. And I'm not just saying traveling,
(28:25):
going to the Eiffel Tower andseeing all the touristy spots. I'm
talking about living in aplace and spending time with locals
and experiencing what life islike. There has been the greatest
university education for meand on top of it, being able to go
to the very places where myancestors came from and walking in
(28:47):
the same villages where mygreat grandparents were has been
truly world opening and verygrounding experience. As someone
who grew up in the diasporacommunity on both sides of my family,
and I've only done half of myjourney, I'm now about to do the
(29:14):
other side of the family. Andit's time I've been putting it off
for a long time to do theHolocaust trip because I know exactly,
you know, how it's going togo. I'm going to be crying all the
time and I know it's going tobe super emotional. But I'm prepared
(29:36):
now and ready. It took me along time, but I'm ready now to do
that. So I wish you well onyour journey to Frankfurt and to
meet your family and record,if you can, some bits and pieces
and tell me how it goes.
Yes, yes, thank you. AndKomal, do you want also to tell a
(30:01):
bit, a bit more about theJapanese project?
Sure. What do you want to knowabout it?
Everything. Everything. Howcome? How come that there are Jewish
communities also in a placelike Japan? Please.
I mean, there's Jewish peopleeverywhere. Growing up, I truly thought
(30:27):
it was just my sister and Ibeing the only combination of Jewish
and Japanese until I met a. Atthe time, what I thought was a Japanese
Israeli who was just travelingthrough with her mom, her and her
sister. Turns out her and Igot to interview her for the Japanese
(30:51):
project. Her father, yes, didgrow up in Japan, but came from the
Korean community that stayedafter World War II. And so that was
really my only idea orknowledge of another mixed family
that looked somewhat similarto mine until the Japanese project.
(31:14):
I wanted to celebrate Jewishand Asian Heritage Month, which falls
within the month of May. And Igot together different combinations
of Jewish and Japanesefamilies and put a call out for a
zoom call during the pandemic.And before you knew it, it kind of
(31:35):
went viral. And we managed to,up until now, find 250 plus Japanese
individuals, couples andfamilies all over the world. And
I mean, it's been a project ofa lifetime and a dream come true
to meet other people like you,see what some of the similarities
(32:01):
have been like. See what someof the differences have been like.
And even though I have methundreds of us now, I still haven't
found my exact combo that Ifind in my stance. I still haven't
found an Israeli Ashkenaziwoman with a Japanese Canadian man
(32:31):
combination yet.
So I'm still holding out thisrecording. Who knows? Who knows?
Who knows?
Wait, are we doing, are wedoing matchmaking here?
People have asked, people haveasked and I, I think once the archives
goes live In May, next May2025, people will start listening
(32:54):
to interviews and see whateveryone who participated in the
project looks like. And I'msure they'll be coming and be like,
oh, do you know, if so and sois single, maybe, maybe there will
be some couples to come out ofthis. But more importantly, I just
(33:15):
want people to celebrateJapanese joy. It's been a really
tough time to be doing thisproject throughout this particular
year. Since October 7th, myproject, I've been collecting interviews
for three years now. And sonow that I'm coming back and, you
know, circling back to some ofthe interviewees and being like,
(33:36):
okay, I've processed yourinterview. Can you please take a
look at this and let me knowif there's anything that you'd like
to edit out. I've beenreceiving some difficult feedback
that this year has been reallydetrimental to the mental health
of a lot of people. They also,you know, not only do they not have
the capacity to look at thisinterview, but some of the contents
(34:01):
are triggering for them. Theymight not feel comfortable sharing
anymore the fact that they'reJewish publicly. They might not feel
comfortable sharing theiranswer that they previously had on,
you know, how are theynavigating the Israel and Palestine
conflict as Jewish andJapanese people? Which is really
(34:24):
difficult to hear that that'swhat they're struggling with because
it unfortunately is takingfront center over some of the more
light questions like what aresome of your favorite Japanese recipes
in your family? And how do youcelebrate Japanese joy? So I'm really
hoping that we will be able tocome back to a time when we can feel
(34:56):
comfortable sharing ourstories. I think it's really important
as a community to share ourstories and to be able to not only
share them among otherJapanese community members, but also
with our friends, our familyand beyond. And who knows, maybe
this will encourage othercommunity groups that are mixed to
do a similar oral historyproject and share their stories.
(35:19):
The more we, I think, shareour lived experience, the better.
So here, here.
The production of this episodecame to reality thanks to the support
of the Friedrich Naumannfoundation for Freedom in Jerusalem.
We were talking about theJapanese project and actually I have
(35:39):
numerous questions here, butwe really will have to finish in
maximum, maximum, maximum 20minutes and Yala go.
Yeah, so I was retelling withyou some of the reactions that people
I interviewed up to, eventhree years ago are experiencing
(36:02):
now as of October 7th, and howdifficult it has been for people
to just, you know, function ona daily basis, let alone, you know,
review their content, whichcan be up to an hour long interview.
I mean, that's, I think at thebest of times, most people don't
like to listen to their ownvoice or their own face. And here
(36:26):
I am asking them to do this ata really difficult time. So I've.
I'm very thankful to you,Michael, because you came at a time
in my life when you encouragedme to enter the world of AI. I was
very resistant to it, if youcan remember. And I discovered a
(36:50):
program, I know it's thecompetitor of Riverside, but it's
Descript and it has allowed meto remove the hours of video editing
which I am not an expert in,and really made it user friendly
for me to delete portions ofinterviews with just a click of a
(37:10):
button, just the removing ofcertain text and it does the video
editing for you. And that hasenabled me to really not lament over
the hours of editing that Ialready do per interview for the
Japanese project. Becausebefore I don't think people fully
understood how much time ittakes to video edit and to render
(37:34):
the videos. And so when you'reasking for really intense edits like
blurring of the face and voicedistortion and remove this and remove
that, you know, that adds alot of work to my plate and I can
be processing these interviewsuntil I'm 80 years old. I want it
to be sooner rather than laterthat people get to hear these interviews.
(37:56):
So I thank you for that and Iam very happy to announce my surprise
to you was you did not know itwas coming. After a year of being
depressed myself over notbeing able to do the project and
have people be happy aboutparticipating in the project because
(38:17):
we're all in depressed funksat the moment, I successfully with
description did my firstinterview full edit and I sent it
to the interviewee to review.And that is a huge win for me after
really truly over a year offeeling unproductive, unable to move,
(38:40):
really stagnant energy. And Icouldn't have done it without you
and a few select people who'vebeen helping me behind the scenes.
So thank you.
Wow, thank you so much. Khmer.Thank you to you. I didn't know I
was. I remember the struggle,let's say. Wow, wow. You know, actually
(39:06):
like I'm now also uploadingfew episodes about queer entrepreneurship
and some some of the contentthat I lecture about. I teach entrepreneurship
and not related to LGBTQ plusstuff and 2s to spirit which I learned
here and I decided totranslate some production from Hebrew
(39:27):
to English so our listenerscan see that. And actually I think
it's very interesting andimportant what you have just raised
because I see entrepreneurshipas change making as I said. And there
is so much of tikkun to do andone of the things which I'm worried
(39:48):
the most about entrepreneurstalking from My personal experience
is a burnout. And a burnout ofchange makers is less tikkun, less
creation of a better place,especially in a time where it's very
needed. And I'm very thankfulfor you for. For sharing that because
(40:11):
I do see that, how everyonecan be a change. Change makers for
me many times, you know, likethis whole field of this entrepreneurial
field and the startup fieldand the venture capital field is
very, very masculine, very.And now, but also been working with
(40:36):
that. I wanted to work andcreate some global startup. And like
startup is like, it's very,very, very difficult. I didn't share
it actually up until now on mypodcast, but a few days before October
7th, I decided finally for apartnership and I had a partner for
the startup, a cto, chiefTechnological officer who's a friend,
(41:01):
was a friend of mine from theage of seven or eight. And when October
7th happened, the day after ortwo days after, I wrote some posts
on Facebook and unfortunatelyhe decided to disconnect from me
(41:21):
completely. Up until today,even now, I wrote him. I mean, okay,
but I didn't write foranything. You know, it was something
very much about humanity. Imean, like, how. How many people
can we lose? How many? I mean,like, I do see every soul as. It's
a very tragic moment, I think,not only in current and modern history,
(41:43):
but probably generally, likeit's probably. And I really hope
that there will be at Kuma,that there will be a revival from
this very difficult situation.And if we will not act, if we will
not bring message ofreconciliation, of showing, diversity,
(42:04):
of showing. I do believe thatactually entrepreneurs who are minorities,
who have differentbackgrounds, have a lot of potential
and a lot of kind of lifeexperience, which is very, very important
because we're solving manytimes we're solving real problems.
(42:24):
And yes, there are differenttools that can be very, very beneficial.
I would say that even like inthis year, most of my lectures were
canceled and also the timethat we met, I was also very depressed
being alone in this veryexpensive country. Very expensive,
Very expensive. I have to say,very. Did I say it's expensive here
(42:45):
in Canada? Very expensive. Youknow, wherever place I posted, like
if some place I know that Ican find some hosting family or stuff.
I was feeling like that manyof the people, including the Israelis
and the Jews, they were onlytrying to sell to me and make money
and, you know, communities andfinding those people. And I'm so
(43:06):
glad that, you know, actuallyI got to you through our cantor,
Sharon. I was interested.Yeah, yes, yes, thank you. Cheryl,
thank you very much. Really, Imean like this is really this, you
know, like we are in a timethat this whole discourse about community
(43:33):
or communities. I'm sorry,worth nothing. Like in some. In some
place. And it's so wonderfulto find actually that in this time
of yes, digital media and allthat it has the pros here, like with
the archives and stuff, thefact that we can record now, the
fact that we can use differenttools that can enlarge our impact.
(43:53):
But also like I do find somehope that with all this difficulty,
like let's not separatebetween people, but let's try to
connect. And if now somethingis very much changing, probably our
identities of all everyone arechanging in this year because of
(44:17):
the crazy stuff happening. ButI really see like this is just like
one example how a cantor,almost a rabbi. Like maybe we are
now in a time that there is amore need actually for that role
that rabbis had. Like is beinga rabbi is just about preaching and
(44:40):
teaching some Bible phrases.Or maybe it's something that also.
Yeah. Like makes thisconnection that connected between
us or with Shidokhim. Yeah,actually I would prefer to have some
Yente instead of using Grindr,to be honest.
Well, you also make aninteresting, you know, case because
(45:04):
you're talking also about yourbusiness partner that you had in
that over a few posts that youdid online that was able to erase
a real human relationship thatyou had with someone who's both on
a friend level and a businesspartner level. And we're seeing this
right across the board. Whatyou did and did not post or did not
(45:26):
say on your various differentsocial media platforms is now being
used against you by people whoyou've had very real relationships
with. And this is what Ireferred to earlier in this interview
was about the frequency offriendship ruptures that I've experienced
(45:47):
just because I'm Jewish andIsraeli and for stuff I've said and
haven't said, God forbid thatI am for all the community groups
and all the victims that havebeen impacted by this ongoing war
and not just one particularside that is hasn't won the hearts
of many people, unfortunately.And so I think we live also in a
(46:13):
really unique time where we'rebeing assessed for what kind of people
we are based on what we virtuesignal to the world. And that erases
our on the ground activismthat we've done for years.
Yes, yes.
(46:33):
And it's an erasure of and areal disrespect towards people who
truly like, I don't need toprove to you how many Israeli, Palestinian
or Palestinian friends that Ihave from Gaza or from West Bank.
No, that is irrelevant and Idon't need to share that information
(46:55):
with you in order to prove toyou and the rest of the world that
I am an ally and that I'm forsomeone for peace and coexistence
and that I do care foreveryone's lives. However, this is
the world we live in now wherewe can't mourn and grieve and vocalize
the pain that we're goingthrough as Israelis and Jews without
(47:16):
also mentioning that we grieveand mourn for the loss of life on
the Palestinian side. It'slike the zero sum game which doesn't
offer the fact that we canvery much mourn for more than one
community. And I don't have toat the time of my grieving need to
(47:37):
also virtue signal to otherpeople that I'm also grieving for
a community that is not my own.
Yeah, there was some, somesuggestion here now, but Carmel,
we have a lot to talk about. Ivery cherish that and I thank you
for like phrasing followingsomething which I didn't have completely.
The phrasing for the fact thatlike in our grief we don't own anything
(48:03):
to anyone and showing somelittle of respect to people who've
been, you know. Well, it'svery ironically the few very last
episodes that I produced inEnglish just before, before the.
The COVID was when IUnfortunately a teenager, 18 years
(48:25):
old who's a D from the Galileein Israel. She was murdered for being
lesbian. She was murdered byher brother. And when event happened
among the queer organizationsin Israel and I'm quite known as
(48:45):
the black sheep there.Straight friendly by the way was
supposed to be. My vision wasto do it through the organizations
especially the Gouda, but theydidn't want to cooperate. And then
eventually I found of this ishow I've got to create straight friendly
actually. And thecommemoration event that happened
(49:08):
for her death was just a smallone in Tel Aviv. And I was like,
no, I mean like we, we have todo something. We have to do something
where it happened which is inthe Galilee, just at the entrance
of some Arab speaking villagevery close to my hometown and very
(49:33):
close. I was planning beforethis war to move from Haifa to the
upper Galilee and just next towhere I was planning to move and
where I have friends from allcolors, size, backgrounds, languages.
And I was like no, this is theplace where I live. This is like
I already lost once some, somequeer Arab Friend from. From the
(49:58):
area. And no, I'm. No, we haveto do something. We have to do something
and work on the. On. Oneducation here. And I. I was very
afraid of, you know, beingthis white cisgender girl going and
like showing the truth or thelight or something. Like, you know,
I'm very. Trying to be very,very sensitive with it. But on the
(50:20):
other hand, for being a Jewishactivist in Israel and for having
the Israeli version ofstraight friendly and with all my
activism, I said I have aprivilege that I can make a phone
call to the headquarters ofthe police of Israel and get right
away the confirmation to dosuch a protest to commemorate her
(50:43):
memory. And we did that. Andwe received so many comments of activists
who. Or people who are likeArab speaking, LGBT from the area
calling me, telling me, look,you're doing something very important,
but are you sure you want todo it? Like, we cannot come because
for us it can be dangerousbecause our community is less accepting
(51:06):
here. A situation of a girlthat got murdered, you know, and
we did organize that. We didorganize that event. It was very,
very important actually thoseepisodes, like, it was important
for me also that her memorywill not be lost and that there will
be a real investigation. Soit's actually, you know, I'm just
(51:26):
a podcaster and an activist,but I never thought that like I will
have few episodes that will bepart of a police investigation, you
know, and. And you know, likeit was supposed also to become to
some. Let's say having thiskind of very horrible. I'm being
(51:50):
currently boycotted by severalventure capitals who are LGBT from
several countries. This is whycurrently where I not doing a startup
which supposed to literallysave the life of. Of lots of people
and help like, help to makethe life a bit easier and nicer for
quite a big group of peoplearound the world. Not measuring or
(52:14):
like judging by any kind of.And like, you know, like it was so
disrespectful. And I reallythank you for what you just said
because the words are veryimportant. You know, and I was also
in this kind of. Yeah. Ofdepression of this whole last year
of like. Like what the isgoing on. I mean like. But you know
(52:36):
what? Like it's about goinglike having the. Having the truth.
Having that. Like, I reallythank you. Like, we really as our
listener can probably listenlike that little that get her wunch
made. Like really. I'm sothankful for it. And I really hope
that here it will cherish. Ilove you really. And I really hope
(53:00):
that here. But we will empowermore people. But it's like, it's.
I think it's really importantto say here, but it's. It's not about
like, only like understandingthe pain, but like, I would, I would
use your terminology and Iwill be even more dramatic, of course,
a gay drama queen. But like,to say, seriously, like, and I'm
saying to all of ourlisteners, no matter if you're like
(53:22):
Jewish, LGBT or allies or notJewish, any other kind of identity
or personality, it's veryimportant that you will be who you
are. And whoever ever, everthinks that he can boycott you or
can tell anything. And by theway, in Judaism, boycotting coret
is the most horriblepunishment, almost similar to death
(53:46):
punish, to make someone to becorrect, to be cutted out of their
communities. So fuck them all.Okay? The truth is with us.
I also think it's important toweave into this that people who have
(54:10):
already gone through traumaand more than one trauma tend to
be a little more resilient.And so when October 7th happened,
I mean, it obviously triggeredfor me memories of my cousin's shooting
and just all the shootingsthat have happened in general to
(54:33):
the Jewish community in NorthAmerica and also to the queer community.
And so I think for me, I wasable to kick into gear a little bit
more quickly and offer somesort of leadership in the Jewish
(54:54):
queer trans community outsideof Israel, because I was already
subjected to trauma. And Ifound that most Israelis that I knew
were able to function a lotbetter than some other people in
(55:18):
the Jewish community becausethis is the reality that we've constantly
been dealing with and livingwith. So. And I see that today. I'm.
I'm not trying to comparetrauma or go into oppression Olympics,
but they're really can besaid. And I'm sure there's PhDs out
there working on this or havealready worked on it, that if you
(55:42):
are part of an alreadymarginalized community and have experienced
trauma, then when more traumahappens. Yeah, you get triggered.
But it's. It's not the initialshock like vaccination. It is. It's
like being poisoned in littleincrements at every single time so
(56:03):
that when more poison comesyour way, you don't completely lose
the ability to function. Yeah.And that's a sad reality that our
trauma has inoculated us tomore trauma.
But also made us to bestronger. And maybe this is also
(56:24):
a very important message in amessage of also of education and
also of. In these times, wehave to acknowledge diversity and
the differences that, let'ssay like being in Canada, let's say,
or in other country, likeJewish or Israeli is not necessarily
(56:46):
the same. And being comingfrom a rural area, for instance,
and so on and so on. We haveto acknowledge the differences. At
the same time also, I reallydo believe that the cooperation is
very important because whatyou just said, I wasn't thinking
about, but I think it'sreally, really important and interesting
(57:08):
and I wish that we could seeand maybe through our content we
will be able a little bit atleast to. To. To be part of fostering
that. I do believe thatIsraeli LGBT and allies can learn
a lot from some of thesynagogues, the queer synagogues,
(57:32):
at least those in the US WhichI'm more familiar with. And the same
time also the Jewish people inthe diaspora, let's say, can also
learn a lot from the Israelisand the LGBT is talking about this
multilevel of trauma ordifficulty and the revival out of
it and being strong, likeunity is very, very important. It
(57:58):
doesn't mean that like we haveto agree about everything, but we
can be definitely companionsto each other and hopefully learn
from our history. We didn'thave a time to talk about it this
time, that's for sure. We'llhave to do other episodes in the
future, but let's say for nowwe didn't even talk and we would
not have the time.Unfortunately, also about some of
(58:21):
them, like, there were also inCanada, some kind of. If we're talking
about Japanese heritage herein Canada, I didn't know until a
few months ago of my visitthat there were even like a kind
of concentration camps. Right.Also for two spirit to indigenous,
there were also, I mean, likeprobably every society unfortunately
(58:45):
has some dark sides as well,but we really have to learn about
them no matter if there's noright or wrong here. It's about acknowledging
the pain and learning,learning, try to make it better.
I love that you're optimisticthat we have to be more cooperative.
(59:08):
I feel I'm just really jadednow and no longer have the compassion
that I once had in my tank.I'm burnt out. I'm, you know, having
done community engagement forso long and so many years and then
find out that just because ofmy nationality that I hold a citizenship
(59:32):
to a country. I can becanceled despite all the years of
work and support that I'vedone for other communities has been
quite traumatizing for me. Solike you, I've been. I've lost business,
I've lost partnerships,community partners. It's like my
(59:57):
grandfather used to say, whichmy mom keeps repeating. And he said
this in Yiddish, which I, Idon't remember how to say it, but
something along the lines ofit's difficult being a Jew.
It is, it is, but this is whatit is. Yet 22% of Nobel Prize winners
(01:00:20):
are Jews. The amount ofstartups that start in Israel, it
has some, some reason forthat. I don't think that it's about
the genes or somethingbiological, inherited, but maybe
it's something cultural. And Ithink that minorities have actually
like groups that struggle.They're also like every problem is
an opportunity and oh, we havesome real problems and real opportunities
(01:00:46):
to solve. And also the messageof like, hey, like what? We have
just, just been talking aboutthis like you can't burn out the
people who work for yourcommunities. We are standing on the
shoulders of our previousancestors and activists and there
will be the others that willbe standing on our shoulders. Amen.
(01:01:09):
Amen to that.
Carmel. Thank you very, verymuch. Todagha. I really, I love you
dear. I'm so glad that we didthat and I hope that we gave some
food for thought for ourlisteners. Also some apartment and
also some, some selfexamination, especially now around
(01:01:30):
the holidays. It's veryimportant so some Shabbat Shalom.
Thank you very.
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