Listener Heath asks: what's the biggest business change in Formula 1 over the last 20 years? There's no shortage of candidates — Liberty Media's acquisition, Drive to Survive, the end of tobacco money, the Concorde Agreement restructure. But Joe Saward lands on one, and makes the case that everything else followed from it.
In this episode, Dick and Sabrina dig into the business transformation of F1 with Joe, who watched the Bernie Ecclestone era up close and has covered every twist since Liberty took over in 2017. Joe's answer is the cost cap — and his argument is that it only became possible because the pandemic forced the issue. Teams burning hundreds of millions a year suddenly faced a world with no racing and no revenue, and Chase Carey's proposal went from impossible to inevitable almost overnight.
What followed is a story of franchise value explosion that would have seemed unthinkable in the Ecclestone era. Teams that were money pits are now serious investment assets — and the private equity interest in F1 tells you everything about how much the sport's financial profile has changed. Joe gives the paddock view on who's buying, who's selling, and what that means for where the sport is heading. The conversation also takes some detours worth hearing: Rob Walker, Bernie's forgotten racing career, the Paddock Club as a global networking engine, and how a phone call to a former British prime minister got Formula 1 back on the road during COVID.
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(00:02):
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation Dick and I had withJoe Saward, one of Formula One's
most independent and insightfuljournalists.
Listener Keith asks, how do youwhat are the markers that
As you'll hear, it's a questionAnd that, Joe argues, tells you
(00:30):
keeps its history.
But before we get to ouryou help us out?
If this show adds value to yourF1 experience, please take a
moment to follow us and give usfive stars on your favorite
podcast app.
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
(00:51):
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
Okay, gentlemen, we have got aHow do you define different F1
What are the markers thatSo for me, I love this question
because it's really asking howdo you make sense of F1's
history?
(01:11):
When we say the turbo era or theera, what are we actually
I know that especially with yourtraining as a historian and
you've covering the sport for aslong as you have, having been at
every Grand Prix all that time,this is very much in your
wheelhouse.
I will say, I'm thinking theredefine eras depending on what
(01:34):
Like the turbo era is aThe Schumacher era is a driver
The Bernie era is about theSo are these all legitimate
like one unified way ofAnd I would say as Joe and Dick,
what, before we even get intolike specific eras, what's your
(01:57):
framework?
Like, how do you define that?
I'll let you guys kind of walkThe thing about Formula One is
framework in any respect.
Now, the FIA cannot be botheredSo people argue about how many
there's no definition of what aThere's no definition of did he
(02:23):
No, they just don't.
They have done nothing, which iscould, except they're not
They're not allowed toBut you could commercialise
baseball or as happens inbooks and people are excited by
So there's no officialFor me, eras are best defined by
(02:50):
basically the turbo era.
The turbo era could have startedBut basically, when Renault
been possible for years, butBut when they turned up, then it
became the beginning of theturbo era.
And then a few years later,everybody switched across to
turbos because it worked muchbetter.
So you can't really do it juston a regulation, but you can do
(03:14):
it on set events that spark thechange in terms of driver
errors.
You can.
How do you define when theHow do you define when the
When was the Senna and ProstWhere?
How did they overlap?
It's all very blurry and it'suse because they can't they
(03:37):
framework on which to nameThe Bernie era.
Yeah.
But Bernie's era went onI mean, yes, you can say the
Liberty Media era started intwenty seventeen, which is which
is fair enough, but I don'tthink there's any real set
definition.
There's certainly no there's nohappened and this happened.
(03:58):
So it's really down toyou want to call it that.
Historians deciding when an eraWhat do you think?
Yeah, I align with you prettyspeaking, I was saying, well,
I think more of?
And as a as a guy that'sside, I think I would probably
(04:21):
And yet I certainly recognizethere's a Schumacher era and
there's a Senna era and orJackie Stewart.
I think about like in F1 whereyou went from the front engine
roadsters of the nineteenfifties to the rear engined
Cooper, which then became superrefined when they went to a one
and a half litre normallyaspirated engine and everybody
(04:44):
said, oh, they're never going tobe fast enough and they're not
noisy and you know, all thatkind.
In fact, it sounds almost likewas back then.
But anyway, that's anotherBut anyway, because I'm all
kind of stuff, right?
But then you have the definingand Cosworth coming in and
(05:04):
that dominated for what, tenMore than that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you can have the CosworthBut of course not everybody had
There was always Ferrari.
Right.
There was always there wereSo I think it's just yeah
It is imprecise.
And it is therefore because it'sYou can apply whatever word you
(05:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it's reallyI stumbled across an old plastic
house, and it had a bunch of oldfilm, and there was four reels.
You know, those old timey reelsAnd they were all from the
nineteen eighty US Grand Prix atLong Beach.
(05:50):
And so you had Villeneuve andAnd you had Alan Jones and the
Williams and all that kind ofstuff.
And you've taken those.
Yeah, I had I was there onI would have been twenty two.
Yeah.
Twenty two.
Buddy of mine and I went to thisAnd it was remarkable how like
(06:13):
Long beach was like I was yeah,grubby, but okay, a dive.
Yeah, that would be it.
And, um, Taylor's bars and Yeah.
Pretty much.
And yet I got some footage ofopposite lock smashing into
And I mean, as a twenty two yearold, I remember it being a
(06:36):
magical thing.
And when I saw that film, which,good shape because it was kept
inadvertently because I justBut, um, I as fast as possible.
Yeah, it may make it.
And then people, you know, youYeah.
(06:56):
Probably could.
I, I did go and get itAnd so it's now video, you know,
on two guys, a girl on F1 and onIt's just a really fun
And I was just like, wow, thiswas really it was the race where
Clay Regazzoni had that hugewreck that left him paralyzed, I
remember.
Yep, yep, I saw it.
I was still a fan at that point.
(07:18):
I, I was a relatively new fan,seasons back then.
It's really interesting.
I remember more details aboutsome of the more modern seasons
because, you know, at the time,about everything that you
here and then they went thereGrand Prix's nearly, you know,
(07:43):
and you can't.
I mean, the Schumacher era isjust like sort of a massive long
blur.
And to be fair, you know, also alittle bit like that with the
Lewis Hamilton era and the and,and the Vettel era, because when
there's too much of the samething, it just becomes, I can't
remember which race, whathappened where and this kind of
stuff, but which is why theyinvented the internet, by the
way.
Um, you know, so we don't needknow, I have all these books.
(08:07):
I don't know if you can.
Well, I have a huge number ofAnd as time goes by, I realize
anymore because any question Iand almost always I can find a
question, and I'm sure halfactually done chronologically.
And so, you know, I'm sure therearound that sort of said the
(08:35):
there are, which is, again,point, it's really what you
Yeah.
And you know, Joe, it's reallyinteresting because as as you
were talking about the historyand remembering races from, you
know, how many, however manyyears ago, thirty or forty years
ago.
It's interesting.
You could also say that theGrand Prix that was run by Jo
(09:02):
that was the end of thebecause I don't think a
I'd have to think about that.
It depends how you defineWell that's true.
I would say brawn Grand Prix wasOh that's an interesting.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
You could argue today thatMcLaren is a privateer, to be
(09:23):
honest, because they're not aworks team.
But what are they?
You know, they're beating theI don't know, I don't know how
again, how you define theprivateer.
Isn't that an interestingWhen you when you put it that
Let me interrupt you then.
Why don't you both attempt todefine privateer or privateer is
easy.
A privateer is not a works team,and a works team is, generally
(09:47):
speaking, in the Formula oneworld.
It is something that does theSo, you know, every Cosworth
privateers up to some extent.
But that is the actualNow that can be, for example, if
engine and then you are the AlfaIf you are Brabham back in the
(10:13):
where that may be, Aston Martinare not a privateer.
If you are a customer of amanufacturer as opposed to the
works team.
So Audi is a works team,McLaren, Alpine and Williams
alpine makes their own cars.
(10:34):
And even if McLaren makes theirown cars, the engines are not
their own.
So that's how I would define aDick, do you agree?
Disagree?
Oh, I find it difficult to toBut I will say this Rob Walker
a chassis from Lotus and heSo I'd like it.
(10:57):
Oh well, yeah, there you go.
They bought chassis fromengine from someone else.
So they are a privateer.
They are if they're calledrepresent General Motors, they
And you could say the samePasses.
Passes very much like thatDallara, whichever way you look
(11:19):
about all these things.
And again, because there'snothing there's no precise
rules.
There isn't a privateer cup, forI don't see why there should be
Everything's very imprecisebecause that's how it's grown up
to be.
I remember arguing with Maxneed to have proper definition.
Years ago I did a, I was, oh, Iin Grand Prix dot com.
(11:46):
I don't have anything to do withnowadays, but I still have
shares and we created a databaseof formula one and defining who
was what.
What was the shortest Grand prixThat's a really interesting
And the answer is there was anfifties who qualified, got on
(12:06):
getting ready to start, hisAnd so the shortest run,
inches, you know, how do youif you fall off on the warming
part in that race?
There's all these questions, butto define it, everybody just
(12:27):
And we.
In the end, at Grand Prix dotThis is what we believe to be
And if you look at it, uh,Marlboro had a statistical guide
for many years, but we disagreedwith Marlboro on a number of the
definitions.
You know, was Bernie Ecclestone,a Grand prix driver, because he
tried to qualify cars back inthe nineteen fifties but failed
(12:48):
to qualify.
Really?
Yeah.
They had no idea.
Really?
No. He would.
He had a Connaught.
He bought a Connaught.
Failed to qualify at three orNow, for me, he's not a Grand
qualified for a grand Prix.
You could say he was F1 driverbecause he raced the car in
other in other non-championshipevents.
But is that the definition of F1driver and Grand Prix driver are
(13:12):
different?
Interesting.
Interesting.
And there's a whole bunch.
There are literally hundreds ofGrand Prix's, who I don't
Prix drivers very.
I've always said it's verySo. And because nobody.
Nobody has come up with anThere are no rules.
Fascinating.
You know, it's funny aboutI knew that he was an F3 driver.
(13:36):
I had no idea that he actuallynon-championship F1 races.
That's interesting.
He bought a. He bought aof date by the time he got it,
or four races, but he justNow, that's not something you
(13:56):
that's always been.
I mean, in recent years wehaven't had people failing to
qualify.
But back in the early nineties,we had forty cars trying to
qualify for Grand Prix, and wehad pre-qualifying.
And those teams rarely survivevery long because if you if you
spend all the money to go andyou had one hour session on a
Friday morning very early andthen you were going home, you
(14:16):
basically didn't have muchchance of survival because you
didn't get paid money to, toturn up.
Nowadays, everyone's gettingSo, you know, it's going to be
to go out of business unlessBut I actually think it's
cap and with the valuations ofanybody's going to get in the
(14:37):
hundreds of teams Over time,a lot of the guys who became
that failed before.
Frank Morgan failed severalRon Dennis, I don't know if you
was called Project Ford.
You know why?
Mhm.
Because projects one, two, andYeah.
(15:01):
Because I always thought ofteam, I think.
And you know, they all he setgrand prix team.
And you know that's whatAnd that's why it became project
four, because the other threeprojects had not gone far
enough.
It's interesting.
I had no idea.
You know, there's lots ofWell, you learn from your
(15:24):
bit easier because, you know,money, you know.
Yeah.
You've got an entry.
But if you have and we're seeingthe guy, the guy who owns
and he's doing Only on the basisit's worth, the team is worth
(15:44):
years from now.
He's laughing, isn't he?
And I think that's you know,he's he's had some success in in
football.
He's had some success in otherSo it's just it's just a private
equity rolling the dice to seewhat happens.
But right now, you know, sportslose any money.
We'll see how it goes.
(16:04):
It doesn't make it.
It doesn't make it a worse orIt just, you know, it's just a
And they're playing the game andprobably playing it well enough
from a commercial standpointthat they're going to win
regardless of what happens ontrack.
If you have if you have Cadillacbehind you and really behind you
and GM there, you then do whatall the factory teams in the
(16:25):
history of the sport have done,which is you lean on your
suppliers.
And so you'll see, you know, carseat manufacturers will be on
the side of the car oilsuppliers and this kind of
stuff.
So or other companies, you know,don't you do this?
That would be really good idea.
And it'll make us much more, youmore attractive to us for all
(16:45):
So, you know, we'll see how itBut the the sport has got a
almost bulletproof, I would say.
So, yeah.
That model is, uh, is a reallyYeah.
It's a, it makes sense.
Bring your partners along forYou know, that would be the
Excellent.
Sabrina, you've been very quiet.
(17:06):
I've enjoyed listening to youinterrupt other than making sure
would say is a follow upWhy does it even matter if we
Is it just an academic exerciseto better understand the sport?
That's a that's a reallyYeah, because there is a there
(17:33):
where fewer and fewer peoplehistory in any sense.
And so I think some of thenothing about any of the history
They might have a few vaguewere young and watching it on
they don't have any realcame from, and that's just a
(17:56):
When I started out, I knewI didn't have this this
childhood steeped in racingcars.
I remember when I was aboutcars in the distance when they
because I lived in south London.
And I remember this this, thissome days, you know, sort of
(18:18):
And I knew what it was about,I never saw it.
You know, it wasn't somethingBut when I got into it, I just
and wanting to find out thethe whole thing.
And I think that's just aDoes it matter?
Probably not.
No. Will those fans stay Maybe.
(18:39):
Maybe not.
Who knows?
I don't know.
But I think that there is such arich and wonderful history and
the people.
That's the thing for me, thepeople in the sport are just
extraordinary people in everygeneration, extraordinary
people.
You know, there's no grand prixYeah, right.
(19:01):
And I think it just depends onwhether you want to find all
these all these fascinatingstories, or if you just like the
soap opera of week to week, youknow, the drive to survive
approach.
And if you look at generaltelevision in any country, you
know, you have soap operas onevery day and people live by
them, you know, and they'refascinated to know what these
(19:22):
fictional characters will get upto next.
And it's, I sometimes I'm, Ianyone can be that fascinated by
But that's just me.
You know, I'm much morethe past, the real people and
But does it matter?
No, it doesn't matter at all,Because those who want to be
(19:45):
sport more deeply will do so ifInitially with the internet now,
into it and to find more.
But I remember, I mean, when Istarted, I knew so little about
the sport that I didn't evenknow there were specialist
magazines.
I used to read the newspapers,of report they do these days
(20:05):
Prix, and that was all I knew.
And literally I, I'd walk in, II suppose, and I was walking
and I saw, blimey, what's that?
That's a, that's a magazine Wow.
Really?
Never even crossed my mind.
And then I discovered there wasAnd then I discovered there were
ones in different countries andyou know.
(20:25):
And so you go on with that and,you know, you this is how you
build this, the passion, to behonest.
That's what liberty wants.
They want the casual fan, thevery much to be fascinated and
And if they're drawn into it,then spend money and they will
it falls from their pockets.
(20:46):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah.
That's the art of sportsYeah, I think it does make
Like when I listen to you, Imindset, probably naturally.
But it's interesting to listenis a example of the era.
And then mine is an example ofLike when you talk about the
(21:12):
a magazine is kind of what IOne, as our audience knows, my
entry into the sport really camethrough John.
And just having theseconversations with him, the rest
of the family and understandingracing, I would walk away going,
oh, well, that's veryinteresting.
And then as the internet And ofliberty eventually came as a
(21:35):
So much more information startedI would get excited when
seem like it randomly showed upthat rabbit hole.
I think that for me, answeringin makes me appreciate how the
(21:55):
and where it could go.
To see that development, and ifanything, I personally believe
that progress without historicalappreciation doesn't then have a
foundation like you don't youneed to have both like so that
way you can appreciate wheresomething has grown from to know
(22:18):
how much further you want to seeit go.
So when you see all thesecurrent, I see a lot of people
coming into the sport expectingthings of the sport, and I think
you really don't have a frame ofreference.
You haven't spent timeunderstanding even how far the
sport has come to then put theseaspirations and then even attack
the sport for not meeting yourexpectations.
(22:41):
And it just seems unreasonableBut if you would spend some time
to even see what the sport hasdone, and especially in the
greater context of history andculture, you might be surprised
as to how far and what has beenaccomplished already.
For example, when people talkmotorsport, it wasn't until one
(23:05):
highlighted that there have beendisciplines, and A reminded us
those women in that period ofAnd that it isn't that it isn't
It just needs to be amplified.
And so that's just one piece forBut I'm maybe it's because I'm
(23:28):
who, once I find something, I'mI just go down that rabbit hole
I'll stay awake wanting to readfrom different directions.
Just to give you an idea.
I mean, particularly relating toaudience back in the day when I
buy, I think it was road andthey were monthlies.
(23:52):
And that was about all you couldAnd I started my newsletter,
However, many years later innineteen ninety five, because
the email had arrived by thenand I thought, well, I could be,
I can be three weeks ahead of USpublications and I just have to
(24:13):
find Formula One fans inAmerica.
And so I started writing thiswhat was going on in the sport
And obviously after that, okay,anywhere because people just
ET cetera.
ET cetera.
But as time went by and thebut that was, you know, ninety
(24:37):
You'd say it wasn't quiteto that era and that's what
It was like sort of this issomething that we can use to
spread the word about FormulaOne.
And I think we did a very good.
We had a large, large number ofmoney doing it, you know, so, so
But I think that's how far we'vehave to go.
(25:01):
Your point about where thegets an audience of, you know,
something in the US.
That's nothing.
That is really nothing comparedseries, it's about the same or
I mean, NASCAR's coming down.
IndyCar is about the same.
You know, they're all kind ofSimilarity in terms of numbers.
(25:25):
But then, you know, you wheel inthe NFL and they're doing
twenty, twenty nine million arace or a game rather or
whatever, averaging.
It's just and, you know, thenhundred and thirty or whatever.
Formula one is scratching theNow, what do you need to make it
And there's lots of answersYou need teams for people to
(25:46):
Fundamentally more importantteams is you need a driver to
support and not just any olddriver.
You need a successful driver.
We need a nineteen, sorry, wethirty Mario Andretti to take
into society, if you like.
And that's why drive to Surviveand why the movie, why these
(26:09):
things are so important isthat's the beginning of the
process.
But it's got so, so much morethat is there because it's
formula one is cosmopolitan,it's international.
And okay, maybe in, in, in, inDare I upset everybody?
But in the middle, people don'tBut, you know, there's a lot of
(26:30):
international and cosmopolitanYou know, if you look at the
numbers of Americans who go tovisit Paris every year or go to
other places to understand theirculture, there's something very
chic and very sexy about FormulaOne.
And I think more and more peopleAnd, you know, and I see this I
was in Baku of all places lastyear on an aeroplane, and I was
(26:52):
astonished by the number ofAmericans on the aeroplane,
because I'd never I've neverseen an American in Baku before,
but they were all going therefor the Grand Prix because it
was basically a cheap dealcompared to buying tickets in
Austin or buying, you know,getting a hotel, buying tickets,
feeding, transportation,everything.
Add it all up.
It was cheaper to go to Bakuthan it was to go to Austin,
(27:14):
which sound loony, but that'sthe truth.
And so you're seeing this growthof this, this and these people
and people walking around thepaddock in Baku wearing cowboy
hats, you know, it's like sortof I am not I am not saying
this, but I was and they werethey were there, you know,
making American noises asAmericans do.
And they were having a greatAnd they will go back and
(27:37):
you know, that Baku is justthere'll be more Americans in
It doesn't matter where, youknow, it might be a bit of a
trouble to get them to go intosome of the Middle Eastern
places.
But over time, you know, onceyou learn about them a little
bit.
And that's what I also lovebroadens the mind.
If you travel and you understandthe places you're going, you
(27:59):
begin to understand all thesethings, the cultures, it's
fantastic education, and it'ssuch a good thing for the world
to understand one another alittle bit.
Yes, because people sitting ontheir islands thinking that
they're the best is really notvery positive.
And I, I say that as a Brit, youattitudes in lots of countries,
(28:24):
do is go out there and travelsee how everybody is really
It's just they're at differentand different ways of doing it.
And I think that that is part ofYeah.
Even going back to what you saidabout the cost of an American
going to Baku versus going toCota, it's interesting because I
(28:46):
don't know where this is goingto land in our release order,
but I actually had aconversation with two Canadian
fans, and that it was cheaperfor them to go to Barcelona or
to Cota and one other place thanto go to the Canadian Grand
Prix.
And especially because of whereis shockingly expensive.
(29:09):
There's a couple of reasons forthat, and it might change a
little bit.
I'm not seeing any evidence ofit this year, but it usually
coincided with Graduationweekend.
And also it was always seen asAnd believe me, it had a long
So people who spend their entirelives dressed up in snow
protection gear when the suncomes out in Formula One
(29:32):
arrives.
They all come rushing out andAnd with graduation as well.
So all the hotels, everythingjammed crazy and everything
And it's been a big problem forBut it's not the only city like
I mean, you know, going toLas Vegas is okay because they
(29:56):
You've still got enough space,which is very expensive.
And as Formula one becomes morepopular, the prices continue to
go up.
So it's a sort of it's aconundrum that we have as to and
also impact on the media, by theway, because there are fewer and
fewer media going to the longhaul races because they can't
(30:19):
afford it.
You know, in some countries, forexample, going to Australia, if
you want an Australian mediavisa, which you should have to
go there.
That's that's an additional, uh,in American dollars, that would
be about three hundred dollarsjust for four days to be a
journalist.
That's what they charge youany of the travel costs, without
(30:41):
bills that you have to pay.
And is it surprising that theAnd that's a worry, because that
means that the people who arewriting about Formula One on the
internet and everyone thinksthey're there, they're not
there.
The majority of them are notthere, and they're just making
it up, uh, from what they canfind from and, you know, Google
(31:01):
Translate has been very helpfulfor that because they can
translate German stuff and theycan translate stuff in different
languages and they can getstories.
They don't know if the storiesstop them, you know, and some of
because they, they just are moreothers, but they don't know
going on, which is fascinating.
(31:22):
But it is a kind of a fakeAnd the day the real media dies
are they going to nick from?
True answer is they'll nick frombecause they'll still be going.
But it's the the teams arewhat they want people to read.
And the television is alwaysbest of the television is only
(31:48):
It's an orchestrated broadcast.
I mean, we see that with evensome of the controversies that
have come out as to why are youcutting away to X when I want to
see why?
And so that just shows that it'sa controlled narrative and that
doesn't that's not necessarilynefarious.
It's because you're trying toWe can give them the benefit of
(32:11):
But I think what you'relose independence or a volume of
independence are now shut out.
It allows for a very controlledthose who are controlling it are
But what happens when you haveThen there is nobody challenging
(32:36):
It's happening at the moment.
You know, if you look back overevery single story about
Why is that?
Who is putting out all thesestories about things from the
rules, from the fuel and TokotoHe said, I just don't get it.
(32:57):
Why?
Where is it coming from?
Who's doing this?
I think he knows damn well who'ssay it out loud.
That is the media beingstanding up and saying hello.
Wait a minute, there's somethingAnd who's doing it?
It can be a bit of everybody.
It can be the opposition tryingAnd, you know, you've got to
have people who stand up andsay, actually, no, this isn't
(33:19):
true.
And I think we saw a lot of thatas well at Red bull, where
this is wrong.
He's a bad person.
Nobody said, well, hang on aHave we got any proof of any of
It's just the minute you make anit seems to become a fact.
And that's wrong.
That's what media is supposed toMedia is supposed to go, well,
(33:41):
Let's just have a look at this.
What is this about?
And as we've found out now, ifyou look over time, that all
really comes about trying to getChristian Horner out of the team
ultimately.
I mean, what he did, what hedidn't do, we don't one hundred
percent know.
We absolutely don't know.
But what it did was it disruptedIt disrupted the team.
(34:01):
It made some people want toIt made some people leave.
It just took their eye off theRightly or wrongly, I believe
He's about to come out, and Ibelieve they're going to major
on this quite a bit as to whichside they'll come down on, I
don't know, but you have to becareful about the media
coverage.
If you don't have the individualhang on a minute.
(34:26):
And so that is, I wouldn't sayit was a danger per se, but it
will anaesthetise the sport alittle bit because everything
will go through committees as itis when there are press
conferences, uh, drivers andteam principals are given kind
of cheat sheets in advance tomake sure they say all the right
things.
They go in there prepared forthey have an answer that's been
(34:51):
Now, some of them don't pay asAnd so you have people who say
But, you know, the pressure notto say controversial things is
very strong.
That's not good.
It's not it's kind of censorshipin a way, weird kind of
censorship, but it's, you know,it's commercial censorship, if
you like.
(35:11):
I mean, I could I could argue athat when you are in a
your employer and you've agreedcommercial consequence, they do
talking points and you areLike, I think some of the
predicate questions that wewould want to ask, though, is
(35:33):
how much of a bargainingposition was that individual
before they entered into thatcontract?
And did they feel that they hadbefore they agreed?
Some would argue that driverscome from a very low bargaining
position.
They're willing to acquiesce toand aspiration for so many years
(35:54):
So they're willing to do and saywhatever to, um, toe the company
line.
So I can, again, I can argueas an organization is that you
maintaining talking points.
Now more than ever because ofYou want clarity and uniformity
(36:18):
that you're sending out isvaluations and the consequences
So I guess I'm trying to argueother side of I'm not saying
I'm just saying that we have tolook at it from a three hundred
sixty.
The various motivations andIf you look at, for example,
(36:41):
Sure.
When he was young, he didn't saybecause you don't feel confident
But then come twenty twenty,around that period when he's a
multiple world champion andnobody can touch him, he starts
having his own little I'm notlittle.
He starts having his owncampaigns, if you like to get
the points he thinks areimportant and like taking the
(37:04):
knee at races and this kind ofstuff, you know, And that was is
that right?
Is it right that sportsmen makeI don't know if it is.
But then again, is it right toBecause the FIA, for example, in
don't take a political positionWhat is a political position is
(37:29):
activities a political position?
They've done it.
Is that right?
Is that moral?
I mean, I don't know the answerI'm just raising the questions.
Who gets to decide the rightsand the wrongs of where what is
is there any morality you canapply?
Because there isn't a you know,if the FIA is is doing what it
(37:50):
wants to do, thinking that's thebest thing.
Are they the people, are theyI mean, they should be.
That's true.
But I was very disquieted by theI didn't think that was right.
And you know, but that's justI wish I did know the answers to
(38:11):
suppose I don't need to know.
I'm just here to question, toask the questions, but sometimes
to prove points that this isn'tright.
But if there's nobody aroundlike me to do that, that's
worrying.
And a lot of people out there,eighty percent of the media you
(38:31):
Formula one has got nothing, noWell, because you can see that
across multiple public, public,quotes, publications or
they're all saying the samespin, it it feels like, well,
(38:55):
source and or how are you comingI mean, I, my personal opinion
have we should be able to havePeople should be able to
Do it in a civil way, respectfulThere's nothing wrong with
(39:16):
I think going back to one ofyour examples, I think it is a
very delicate balance ofpolitical statement, but then
also harnessing a person'spersonal opinions.
If anything, it's a question ofIs it the appropriate place to.
I'm not saying I have anhaven't sat and thought about
when the controversy came upto the sport, is the best place
(39:43):
happened, or is it throughagenda for like, is it about the
about actual sustainable change?
And how does that happen from anOr does that happen from long
And talking about it, I haveconclusion, but I think it's a
(40:07):
This is a fundamental thingfinish this particular topic, we
that have different reputations.
Okay.
And some of them have badpeople in the West, in our moral
If you go there and you meetthink, oh, maybe actually the
(40:30):
hypocritical about this.
Maybe we're as bad as they arein some respect, like the death
penalty.
You know, people say you can'tthe death penalty.
Well, I can think of a fewdeath penalty, and we're only
So these are questions aboutanswer to them and I don't know.
(40:51):
But I think that what sport cansport is to connect societies
not black and white issues.
There's a whole lot of gray, andhypocritical about things when
society and at the same timeyou're doing the same thing in a
(41:18):
So I think that we just need tothings politically and just to
It's also very irritating ifyou're one of these other
countries and you find yourselfbeing condemned.
It's very, very annoying.
If you like to be told thatthere you go.
(41:39):
So I don't again, as I saidbefore, I don't know the answers
because there aren't necessarilyanswers, but I think these are
subjects that should be thoughtabout and they should be handled
carefully, but just not not madeinto things.
They're not just take sport whatSport is sport.
Sport is fun.
Sport is entertainment.
(41:59):
If wars break out, sports stops,You know, and it's so we have to
remember that we're just anentertainment formula one does a
little bit for the technology ofthe world.
You know, they do stuff that canYou know, there's a fascinating
thousands of babies have beencreated by Formula One engineers
(42:23):
tiny babies and stuff like that.
Okay.
That's good, but ultimately,It's just fun.
And the thing is that sporttakes people out of the drudge,
if you want to call it, of reallife.
It gives them a chance to dream,at your desk in a boring
(42:45):
it's like to be in Monte Carlo.
You know, I call it the magicIf you can get onto the magic
bit of it.
Formula one has done its job.
It's made life better forAnd I think that's really what I
see in it, and I don't think weshould waste too much time
politicizing it.
But at the same time, we shouldDick, I'll let you give the last
(43:08):
word before I close this out,because I know that your day job
is calling.
Oh it is.
You know, I. Well, number one, Ithink this has been a
fascinating conversation, and Ithink that we must have gone
down at least three or fourrabbit holes beyond the original
question, which was, what do wethink about the various eras of
Formula One?
(43:28):
But this has been a reallyAnd I think about, you know, Joe
road and track and car andthere was to get F1 information.
And I can confirm that ten yeartrack, partly because as I had
conversation, I just love theIt was so personal.
(43:54):
It was like you were a member ofhis team and you got that
reporting and it was absolutelywonderful.
And that's part of what got meI've carried it forward fifty
years later, almost.
And so sixty years, oh myBut anyway, and that's that's to
(44:16):
me what's made the sport sogreat.
It is cosmopolitan.
It, it is going to differentI don't care so much about the
glitz and glamour, but I reallydo care about the teams and the
drivers.
And that's because I've been atYou know, we've got some dear
All of them were collegiateBoth the the husband, the wife
(44:38):
collegiate sports, right.
Know nothing about Formula One.
And then all of a sudden theydiscovered the show called Drive
to Survive.
And now all of a sudden they'relike asking questions and all
that, and they're becoming fans,right?
But they have no idea about theAnd so that then is left to
(44:59):
well, you know, there was thisthe nineteen seventies or this
And, and, you know, you can showthem video of these guys and
what they did and bring themslowly into the sport and have
that appreciation.
But until Drive to Survive cameOh, they were sticking ball
And I think the other part of itis, is that if you enjoy sports,
(45:23):
it's really easy to enjoyFormula One as much as you enjoy
basketball or golf or whatever,even if you can't really relate
to what these athletes are doingin a Formula One car, because
it's not like driving to thegrocery store.
So that that's just my take.
And I think that, you know, backso hard to get any information
(45:49):
to put effort into it, I hung onWhereas with the internet, it's
That's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
I like that, and if anything, Ivery different direction that I
But I think that that's probablyHe didn't expect it.
(46:12):
Uh, I think it is a good thingbecause it shows our passion for
the sport.
And if anything, when we answerabout the question about eras
that we're looking at it withall these different
perspectives, I will say, Ithink that you can have multiple
eras exist.
I was drawing on my paper and Iwas trying to figure out, how do
I even explain this since we'renot a visual podcast, but I can
(46:35):
see eras for the technical onone.
Like if you have a spectrum of aother historical analyses that
that shows the technical era,starts the driver error.
So for example, using theSchumacher and then above that
could have been a line thatshows the governance of of
(46:56):
Bernie.
I think that it's aopinion, of how you look at eras
that you could just look at onlythrough line, you could see
as you noted, Joe, that driverpassing of that baton, that's a
(47:17):
wouldn't see if you only lookeda very structured and markered.
And then governance also is muchof those other.
So I think you would do ajust look at one instead.
If you were to put thosemultiple layers, that gives you
the rich tapestry that the sporthas.
(47:37):
And then if anything, looking atthe conversation that we ended
up taking, it shows why some ofthese elements are necessary of
the independent journalism, thewillingness to have conversation
about facts.
You start to see that in thatlooking at the history.
So that's my last piece.
(47:59):
I take the last word technicallyAnd on that note, I say,
gentlemen, thanks for thisconversation.
Thank you.
Okay, friends, what did youWe'd love to hear from you.
What questions are you wrestlingWhat should we dive into next?
(48:20):
Send them to Sabrina at TwoWe read every single one.
And frankly, your questions areusually more interesting than
what we'd come up with on ourown.
And with that, let me say thiskeep talking and you can keep
(48:41):
two guys, a girl and F1 forSabrina.
Thanks for listening.
Hey friends, thanks for takingtime to listen in on a
conversation Dick and I had withJoe Saward, one of Formula One's
most independent and insightfuljournalists.
Listener Keith asks, how do youwhat are the markers that
As you'll hear, it's a questionAnd that, Joe argues, tells you
(00:30):
keeps its history.
But before we get to ouryou help us out?
If this show adds value to yourF1 experience, please take a
moment to follow us and give usfive stars on your favorite
podcast app.
Share this episode with other F1That's how people find us and
it's how we keep growing thiscommunity.
(00:51):
Hope you enjoy our conversation.
Okay, gentlemen, we have got aHow do you define different F1
What are the markers thatSo for me, I love this question
because it's really asking howdo you make sense of F1's
history?
(01:11):
When we say the turbo era or theera, what are we actually
I know that especially with yourtraining as a historian and
you've covering the sport for aslong as you have, having been at
every Grand Prix all that time,this is very much in your
wheelhouse.
I will say, I'm thinking theredefine eras depending on what
(01:34):
Like the turbo era is aThe Schumacher era is a driver
The Bernie era is about theSo are these all legitimate
like one unified way ofAnd I would say as Joe and Dick,
what, before we even get intolike specific eras, what's your
(01:57):
framework?
Like, how do you define that?
I'll let you guys kind of walkThe thing about Formula One is
framework in any respect.
Now, the FIA cannot be botheredSo people argue about how many
there's no definition of what aThere's no definition of did he
(02:23):
No, they just don't.
They have done nothing, which iscould, except they're not
They're not allowed toBut you could commercialise
baseball or as happens inbooks and people are excited by
So there's no officialFor me, eras are best defined by
(02:50):
basically the turbo era.
The turbo era could have startedBut basically, when Renault
been possible for years, butBut when they turned up, then it
became the beginning of theturbo era.
And then a few years later,everybody switched across to
turbos because it worked muchbetter.
So you can't really do it juston a regulation, but you can do
(03:14):
it on set events that spark thechange in terms of driver
errors.
You can.
How do you define when theHow do you define when the
When was the Senna and ProstWhere?
How did they overlap?
It's all very blurry and it'suse because they can't they
(03:37):
framework on which to nameThe Bernie era.
Yeah.
But Bernie's era went onI mean, yes, you can say the
Liberty Media era started intwenty seventeen, which is which
is fair enough, but I don'tthink there's any real set
definition.
There's certainly no there's nohappened and this happened.
(03:58):
So it's really down toyou want to call it that.
Historians deciding when an eraWhat do you think?
Yeah, I align with you prettyspeaking, I was saying, well,
I think more of?
And as a as a guy that'sside, I think I would probably
(04:21):
And yet I certainly recognizethere's a Schumacher era and
there's a Senna era and orJackie Stewart.
I think about like in F1 whereyou went from the front engine
roadsters of the nineteenfifties to the rear engined
Cooper, which then became superrefined when they went to a one
and a half litre normallyaspirated engine and everybody
(04:44):
said, oh, they're never going tobe fast enough and they're not
noisy and you know, all thatkind.
In fact, it sounds almost likewas back then.
But anyway, that's anotherBut anyway, because I'm all
kind of stuff, right?
But then you have the definingand Cosworth coming in and
(05:04):
that dominated for what, tenMore than that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so you can have the CosworthBut of course not everybody had
There was always Ferrari.
Right.
There was always there wereSo I think it's just yeah
It is imprecise.
And it is therefore because it'sYou can apply whatever word you
(05:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, it's reallyI stumbled across an old plastic
house, and it had a bunch of oldfilm, and there was four reels.
You know, those old timey reelsAnd they were all from the
nineteen eighty US Grand Prix atLong Beach.
(05:50):
And so you had Villeneuve andAnd you had Alan Jones and the
Williams and all that kind ofstuff.
And you've taken those.
Yeah, I had I was there onI would have been twenty two.
Yeah.
Twenty two.
Buddy of mine and I went to thisAnd it was remarkable how like
(06:13):
Long beach was like I was yeah,grubby, but okay, a dive.
Yeah, that would be it.
And, um, Taylor's bars and Yeah.
Pretty much.
And yet I got some footage ofopposite lock smashing into
And I mean, as a twenty two yearold, I remember it being a
(06:36):
magical thing.
And when I saw that film, which,good shape because it was kept
inadvertently because I justBut, um, I as fast as possible.
Yeah, it may make it.
And then people, you know, youYeah.
(06:56):
Probably could.
I, I did go and get itAnd so it's now video, you know,
on two guys, a girl on F1 and onIt's just a really fun
And I was just like, wow, thiswas really it was the race where
Clay Regazzoni had that hugewreck that left him paralyzed, I
remember.
Yep, yep, I saw it.
I was still a fan at that point.
(07:18):
I, I was a relatively new fan,seasons back then.
It's really interesting.
I remember more details aboutsome of the more modern seasons
because, you know, at the time,about everything that you
here and then they went thereGrand Prix's nearly, you know,
(07:43):
and you can't.
I mean, the Schumacher era isjust like sort of a massive long
blur.
And to be fair, you know, also alittle bit like that with the
Lewis Hamilton era and the and,and the Vettel era, because when
there's too much of the samething, it just becomes, I can't
remember which race, whathappened where and this kind of
stuff, but which is why theyinvented the internet, by the
way.
Um, you know, so we don't needknow, I have all these books.
(08:07):
I don't know if you can.
Well, I have a huge number ofAnd as time goes by, I realize
anymore because any question Iand almost always I can find a
question, and I'm sure halfactually done chronologically.
And so, you know, I'm sure therearound that sort of said the
(08:35):
there are, which is, again,point, it's really what you
Yeah.
And you know, Joe, it's reallyinteresting because as as you
were talking about the historyand remembering races from, you
know, how many, however manyyears ago, thirty or forty years
ago.
It's interesting.
You could also say that theGrand Prix that was run by Jo
(09:02):
that was the end of thebecause I don't think a
I'd have to think about that.
It depends how you defineWell that's true.
I would say brawn Grand Prix wasOh that's an interesting.
Well, yeah.
Okay.
You could argue today thatMcLaren is a privateer, to be
(09:23):
honest, because they're not aworks team.
But what are they?
You know, they're beating theI don't know, I don't know how
again, how you define theprivateer.
Isn't that an interestingWhen you when you put it that
Let me interrupt you then.
Why don't you both attempt todefine privateer or privateer is
easy.
A privateer is not a works team,and a works team is, generally
(09:47):
speaking, in the Formula oneworld.
It is something that does theSo, you know, every Cosworth
privateers up to some extent.
But that is the actualNow that can be, for example, if
engine and then you are the AlfaIf you are Brabham back in the
(10:13):
where that may be, Aston Martinare not a privateer.
If you are a customer of amanufacturer as opposed to the
works team.
So Audi is a works team,McLaren, Alpine and Williams
alpine makes their own cars.
(10:34):
And even if McLaren makes theirown cars, the engines are not
their own.
So that's how I would define aDick, do you agree?
Disagree?
Oh, I find it difficult to toBut I will say this Rob Walker
a chassis from Lotus and heSo I'd like it.
(10:57):
Oh well, yeah, there you go.
They bought chassis fromengine from someone else.
So they are a privateer.
They are if they're calledrepresent General Motors, they
And you could say the samePasses.
Passes very much like thatDallara, whichever way you look
(11:19):
about all these things.
And again, because there'snothing there's no precise
rules.
There isn't a privateer cup, forI don't see why there should be
Everything's very imprecisebecause that's how it's grown up
to be.
I remember arguing with Maxneed to have proper definition.
Years ago I did a, I was, oh, Iin Grand Prix dot com.
(11:46):
I don't have anything to do withnowadays, but I still have
shares and we created a databaseof formula one and defining who
was what.
What was the shortest Grand prixThat's a really interesting
And the answer is there was anfifties who qualified, got on
(12:06):
getting ready to start, hisAnd so the shortest run,
inches, you know, how do youif you fall off on the warming
part in that race?
There's all these questions, butto define it, everybody just
(12:27):
And we.
In the end, at Grand Prix dotThis is what we believe to be
And if you look at it, uh,Marlboro had a statistical guide
for many years, but we disagreedwith Marlboro on a number of the
definitions.
You know, was Bernie Ecclestone,a Grand prix driver, because he
tried to qualify cars back inthe nineteen fifties but failed
(12:48):
to qualify.
Really?
Yeah.
They had no idea.
Really?
No. He would.
He had a Connaught.
He bought a Connaught.
Failed to qualify at three orNow, for me, he's not a Grand
qualified for a grand Prix.
You could say he was F1 driverbecause he raced the car in
other in other non-championshipevents.
But is that the definition of F1driver and Grand Prix driver are
(13:12):
different?
Interesting.
Interesting.
And there's a whole bunch.
There are literally hundreds ofGrand Prix's, who I don't
Prix drivers very.
I've always said it's verySo. And because nobody.
Nobody has come up with anThere are no rules.
Fascinating.
You know, it's funny aboutI knew that he was an F3 driver.
(13:36):
I had no idea that he actuallynon-championship F1 races.
That's interesting.
He bought a. He bought aof date by the time he got it,
or four races, but he justNow, that's not something you
(13:56):
that's always been.
I mean, in recent years wehaven't had people failing to
qualify.
But back in the early nineties,we had forty cars trying to
qualify for Grand Prix, and wehad pre-qualifying.
And those teams rarely survivevery long because if you if you
spend all the money to go andyou had one hour session on a
Friday morning very early andthen you were going home, you
(14:16):
basically didn't have muchchance of survival because you
didn't get paid money to, toturn up.
Nowadays, everyone's gettingSo, you know, it's going to be
to go out of business unlessBut I actually think it's
cap and with the valuations ofanybody's going to get in the
(14:37):
hundreds of teams Over time,a lot of the guys who became
that failed before.
Frank Morgan failed severalRon Dennis, I don't know if you
was called Project Ford.
You know why?
Mhm.
Because projects one, two, andYeah.
(15:01):
Because I always thought ofteam, I think.
And you know, they all he setgrand prix team.
And you know that's whatAnd that's why it became project
four, because the other threeprojects had not gone far
enough.
It's interesting.
I had no idea.
You know, there's lots ofWell, you learn from your
(15:24):
bit easier because, you know,money, you know.
Yeah.
You've got an entry.
But if you have and we're seeingthe guy, the guy who owns
and he's doing Only on the basisit's worth, the team is worth
(15:44):
years from now.
He's laughing, isn't he?
And I think that's you know,he's he's had some success in in
football.
He's had some success in otherSo it's just it's just a private
equity rolling the dice to seewhat happens.
But right now, you know, sportslose any money.
We'll see how it goes.
(16:04):
It doesn't make it.
It doesn't make it a worse orIt just, you know, it's just a
And they're playing the game andprobably playing it well enough
from a commercial standpointthat they're going to win
regardless of what happens ontrack.
If you have if you have Cadillacbehind you and really behind you
and GM there, you then do whatall the factory teams in the
(16:25):
history of the sport have done,which is you lean on your
suppliers.
And so you'll see, you know, carseat manufacturers will be on
the side of the car oilsuppliers and this kind of
stuff.
So or other companies, you know,don't you do this?
That would be really good idea.
And it'll make us much more, youmore attractive to us for all
(16:45):
So, you know, we'll see how itBut the the sport has got a
almost bulletproof, I would say.
So, yeah.
That model is, uh, is a reallyYeah.
It's a, it makes sense.
Bring your partners along forYou know, that would be the
Excellent.
Sabrina, you've been very quiet.
(17:06):
I've enjoyed listening to youinterrupt other than making sure
would say is a follow upWhy does it even matter if we
Is it just an academic exerciseto better understand the sport?
That's a that's a reallyYeah, because there is a there
(17:33):
where fewer and fewer peoplehistory in any sense.
And so I think some of thenothing about any of the history
They might have a few vaguewere young and watching it on
they don't have any realcame from, and that's just a
(17:56):
When I started out, I knewI didn't have this this
childhood steeped in racingcars.
I remember when I was aboutcars in the distance when they
because I lived in south London.
And I remember this this, thissome days, you know, sort of
(18:18):
And I knew what it was about,I never saw it.
You know, it wasn't somethingBut when I got into it, I just
and wanting to find out thethe whole thing.
And I think that's just aDoes it matter?
Probably not.
No. Will those fans stay Maybe.
(18:39):
Maybe not.
Who knows?
I don't know.
But I think that there is such arich and wonderful history and
the people.
That's the thing for me, thepeople in the sport are just
extraordinary people in everygeneration, extraordinary
people.
You know, there's no grand prixYeah, right.
(19:01):
And I think it just depends onwhether you want to find all
these all these fascinatingstories, or if you just like the
soap opera of week to week, youknow, the drive to survive
approach.
And if you look at generaltelevision in any country, you
know, you have soap operas onevery day and people live by
them, you know, and they'refascinated to know what these
(19:22):
fictional characters will get upto next.
And it's, I sometimes I'm, Ianyone can be that fascinated by
But that's just me.
You know, I'm much morethe past, the real people and
But does it matter?
No, it doesn't matter at all,Because those who want to be
(19:45):
sport more deeply will do so ifInitially with the internet now,
into it and to find more.
But I remember, I mean, when Istarted, I knew so little about
the sport that I didn't evenknow there were specialist
magazines.
I used to read the newspapers,of report they do these days
(20:05):
Prix, and that was all I knew.
And literally I, I'd walk in, II suppose, and I was walking
and I saw, blimey, what's that?
That's a, that's a magazine Wow.
Really?
Never even crossed my mind.
And then I discovered there wasAnd then I discovered there were
ones in different countries andyou know.
(20:25):
And so you go on with that and,you know, you this is how you
build this, the passion, to behonest.
That's what liberty wants.
They want the casual fan, thevery much to be fascinated and
And if they're drawn into it,then spend money and they will
it falls from their pockets.
(20:46):
Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah.
That's the art of sportsYeah, I think it does make
Like when I listen to you, Imindset, probably naturally.
But it's interesting to listenis a example of the era.
And then mine is an example ofLike when you talk about the
(21:12):
a magazine is kind of what IOne, as our audience knows, my
entry into the sport really camethrough John.
And just having theseconversations with him, the rest
of the family and understandingracing, I would walk away going,
oh, well, that's veryinteresting.
And then as the internet And ofliberty eventually came as a
(21:35):
So much more information startedI would get excited when
seem like it randomly showed upthat rabbit hole.
I think that for me, answeringin makes me appreciate how the
(21:55):
and where it could go.
To see that development, and ifanything, I personally believe
that progress without historicalappreciation doesn't then have a
foundation like you don't youneed to have both like so that
way you can appreciate wheresomething has grown from to know
(22:18):
how much further you want to seeit go.
So when you see all thesecurrent, I see a lot of people
coming into the sport expectingthings of the sport, and I think
you really don't have a frame ofreference.
You haven't spent timeunderstanding even how far the
sport has come to then put theseaspirations and then even attack
the sport for not meeting yourexpectations.
(22:41):
And it just seems unreasonableBut if you would spend some time
to even see what the sport hasdone, and especially in the
greater context of history andculture, you might be surprised
as to how far and what has beenaccomplished already.
For example, when people talkmotorsport, it wasn't until one
(23:05):
highlighted that there have beendisciplines, and A reminded us
those women in that period ofAnd that it isn't that it isn't
It just needs to be amplified.
And so that's just one piece forBut I'm maybe it's because I'm
(23:28):
who, once I find something, I'mI just go down that rabbit hole
I'll stay awake wanting to readfrom different directions.
Just to give you an idea.
I mean, particularly relating toaudience back in the day when I
buy, I think it was road andthey were monthlies.
(23:52):
And that was about all you couldAnd I started my newsletter,
However, many years later innineteen ninety five, because
the email had arrived by thenand I thought, well, I could be,
I can be three weeks ahead of USpublications and I just have to
(24:13):
find Formula One fans inAmerica.
And so I started writing thiswhat was going on in the sport
And obviously after that, okay,anywhere because people just
ET cetera.
ET cetera.
But as time went by and thebut that was, you know, ninety
(24:37):
You'd say it wasn't quiteto that era and that's what
It was like sort of this issomething that we can use to
spread the word about FormulaOne.
And I think we did a very good.
We had a large, large number ofmoney doing it, you know, so, so
But I think that's how far we'vehave to go.
(25:01):
Your point about where thegets an audience of, you know,
something in the US.
That's nothing.
That is really nothing comparedseries, it's about the same or
I mean, NASCAR's coming down.
IndyCar is about the same.
You know, they're all kind ofSimilarity in terms of numbers.
(25:25):
But then, you know, you wheel inthe NFL and they're doing
twenty, twenty nine million arace or a game rather or
whatever, averaging.
It's just and, you know, thenhundred and thirty or whatever.
Formula one is scratching theNow, what do you need to make it
And there's lots of answersYou need teams for people to
(25:46):
Fundamentally more importantteams is you need a driver to
support and not just any olddriver.
You need a successful driver.
We need a nineteen, sorry, wethirty Mario Andretti to take
into society, if you like.
And that's why drive to Surviveand why the movie, why these
(26:09):
things are so important isthat's the beginning of the
process.
But it's got so, so much morethat is there because it's
formula one is cosmopolitan,it's international.
And okay, maybe in, in, in, inDare I upset everybody?
But in the middle, people don'tBut, you know, there's a lot of
(26:30):
international and cosmopolitanYou know, if you look at the
numbers of Americans who go tovisit Paris every year or go to
other places to understand theirculture, there's something very
chic and very sexy about FormulaOne.
And I think more and more peopleAnd, you know, and I see this I
was in Baku of all places lastyear on an aeroplane, and I was
(26:52):
astonished by the number ofAmericans on the aeroplane,
because I'd never I've neverseen an American in Baku before,
but they were all going therefor the Grand Prix because it
was basically a cheap dealcompared to buying tickets in
Austin or buying, you know,getting a hotel, buying tickets,
feeding, transportation,everything.
Add it all up.
It was cheaper to go to Bakuthan it was to go to Austin,
(27:14):
which sound loony, but that'sthe truth.
And so you're seeing this growthof this, this and these people
and people walking around thepaddock in Baku wearing cowboy
hats, you know, it's like sortof I am not I am not saying
this, but I was and they werethey were there, you know,
making American noises asAmericans do.
And they were having a greatAnd they will go back and
(27:37):
you know, that Baku is justthere'll be more Americans in
It doesn't matter where, youknow, it might be a bit of a
trouble to get them to go intosome of the Middle Eastern
places.
But over time, you know, onceyou learn about them a little
bit.
And that's what I also lovebroadens the mind.
If you travel and you understandthe places you're going, you
(27:59):
begin to understand all thesethings, the cultures, it's
fantastic education, and it'ssuch a good thing for the world
to understand one another alittle bit.
Yes, because people sitting ontheir islands thinking that
they're the best is really notvery positive.
And I, I say that as a Brit, youattitudes in lots of countries,
(28:24):
do is go out there and travelsee how everybody is really
It's just they're at differentand different ways of doing it.
And I think that that is part ofYeah.
Even going back to what you saidabout the cost of an American
going to Baku versus going toCota, it's interesting because I
(28:46):
don't know where this is goingto land in our release order,
but I actually had aconversation with two Canadian
fans, and that it was cheaperfor them to go to Barcelona or
to Cota and one other place thanto go to the Canadian Grand
Prix.
And especially because of whereis shockingly expensive.
(29:09):
There's a couple of reasons forthat, and it might change a
little bit.
I'm not seeing any evidence ofit this year, but it usually
coincided with Graduationweekend.
And also it was always seen asAnd believe me, it had a long
So people who spend their entirelives dressed up in snow
protection gear when the suncomes out in Formula One
(29:32):
arrives.
They all come rushing out andAnd with graduation as well.
So all the hotels, everythingjammed crazy and everything
And it's been a big problem forBut it's not the only city like
I mean, you know, going toLas Vegas is okay because they
(29:56):
You've still got enough space,which is very expensive.
And as Formula one becomes morepopular, the prices continue to
go up.
So it's a sort of it's aconundrum that we have as to and
also impact on the media, by theway, because there are fewer and
fewer media going to the longhaul races because they can't
(30:19):
afford it.
You know, in some countries, forexample, going to Australia, if
you want an Australian mediavisa, which you should have to
go there.
That's that's an additional, uh,in American dollars, that would
be about three hundred dollarsjust for four days to be a
journalist.
That's what they charge youany of the travel costs, without
(30:41):
bills that you have to pay.
And is it surprising that theAnd that's a worry, because that
means that the people who arewriting about Formula One on the
internet and everyone thinksthey're there, they're not
there.
The majority of them are notthere, and they're just making
it up, uh, from what they canfind from and, you know, Google
(31:01):
Translate has been very helpfulfor that because they can
translate German stuff and theycan translate stuff in different
languages and they can getstories.
They don't know if the storiesstop them, you know, and some of
because they, they just are moreothers, but they don't know
going on, which is fascinating.
(31:22):
But it is a kind of a fakeAnd the day the real media dies
are they going to nick from?
True answer is they'll nick frombecause they'll still be going.
But it's the the teams arewhat they want people to read.
And the television is alwaysbest of the television is only
(31:48):
It's an orchestrated broadcast.
I mean, we see that with evensome of the controversies that
have come out as to why are youcutting away to X when I want to
see why?
And so that just shows that it'sa controlled narrative and that
doesn't that's not necessarilynefarious.
It's because you're trying toWe can give them the benefit of
(32:11):
But I think what you'relose independence or a volume of
independence are now shut out.
It allows for a very controlledthose who are controlling it are
But what happens when you haveThen there is nobody challenging
(32:36):
It's happening at the moment.
You know, if you look back overevery single story about
Why is that?
Who is putting out all thesestories about things from the
rules, from the fuel and TokotoHe said, I just don't get it.
(32:57):
Why?
Where is it coming from?
Who's doing this?
I think he knows damn well who'ssay it out loud.
That is the media beingstanding up and saying hello.
Wait a minute, there's somethingAnd who's doing it?
It can be a bit of everybody.
It can be the opposition tryingAnd, you know, you've got to
have people who stand up andsay, actually, no, this isn't
(33:19):
true.
And I think we saw a lot of thatas well at Red bull, where
this is wrong.
He's a bad person.
Nobody said, well, hang on aHave we got any proof of any of
It's just the minute you make anit seems to become a fact.
And that's wrong.
That's what media is supposed toMedia is supposed to go, well,
(33:41):
Let's just have a look at this.
What is this about?
And as we've found out now, ifyou look over time, that all
really comes about trying to getChristian Horner out of the team
ultimately.
I mean, what he did, what hedidn't do, we don't one hundred
percent know.
We absolutely don't know.
But what it did was it disruptedIt disrupted the team.
(34:01):
It made some people want toIt made some people leave.
It just took their eye off theRightly or wrongly, I believe
He's about to come out, and Ibelieve they're going to major
on this quite a bit as to whichside they'll come down on, I
don't know, but you have to becareful about the media
coverage.
If you don't have the individualhang on a minute.
(34:26):
And so that is, I wouldn't sayit was a danger per se, but it
will anaesthetise the sport alittle bit because everything
will go through committees as itis when there are press
conferences, uh, drivers andteam principals are given kind
of cheat sheets in advance tomake sure they say all the right
things.
They go in there prepared forthey have an answer that's been
(34:51):
Now, some of them don't pay asAnd so you have people who say
But, you know, the pressure notto say controversial things is
very strong.
That's not good.
It's not it's kind of censorshipin a way, weird kind of
censorship, but it's, you know,it's commercial censorship, if
you like.
(35:11):
I mean, I could I could argue athat when you are in a
your employer and you've agreedcommercial consequence, they do
talking points and you areLike, I think some of the
predicate questions that wewould want to ask, though, is
(35:33):
how much of a bargainingposition was that individual
before they entered into thatcontract?
And did they feel that they hadbefore they agreed?
Some would argue that driverscome from a very low bargaining
position.
They're willing to acquiesce toand aspiration for so many years
(35:54):
So they're willing to do and saywhatever to, um, toe the company
line.
So I can, again, I can argueas an organization is that you
maintaining talking points.
Now more than ever because ofYou want clarity and uniformity
(36:18):
that you're sending out isvaluations and the consequences
So I guess I'm trying to argueother side of I'm not saying
I'm just saying that we have tolook at it from a three hundred
sixty.
The various motivations andIf you look at, for example,
(36:41):
Sure.
When he was young, he didn't saybecause you don't feel confident
But then come twenty twenty,around that period when he's a
multiple world champion andnobody can touch him, he starts
having his own little I'm notlittle.
He starts having his owncampaigns, if you like to get
the points he thinks areimportant and like taking the
(37:04):
knee at races and this kind ofstuff, you know, And that was is
that right?
Is it right that sportsmen makeI don't know if it is.
But then again, is it right toBecause the FIA, for example, in
don't take a political positionWhat is a political position is
(37:29):
activities a political position?
They've done it.
Is that right?
Is that moral?
I mean, I don't know the answerI'm just raising the questions.
Who gets to decide the rightsand the wrongs of where what is
is there any morality you canapply?
Because there isn't a you know,if the FIA is is doing what it
(37:50):
wants to do, thinking that's thebest thing.
Are they the people, are theyI mean, they should be.
That's true.
But I was very disquieted by theI didn't think that was right.
And you know, but that's justI wish I did know the answers to
(38:11):
suppose I don't need to know.
I'm just here to question, toask the questions, but sometimes
to prove points that this isn'tright.
But if there's nobody aroundlike me to do that, that's
worrying.
And a lot of people out there,eighty percent of the media you
(38:31):
Formula one has got nothing, noWell, because you can see that
across multiple public, public,quotes, publications or
they're all saying the samespin, it it feels like, well,
(38:55):
source and or how are you comingI mean, I, my personal opinion
have we should be able to havePeople should be able to
Do it in a civil way, respectfulThere's nothing wrong with
(39:16):
I think going back to one ofyour examples, I think it is a
very delicate balance ofpolitical statement, but then
also harnessing a person'spersonal opinions.
If anything, it's a question ofIs it the appropriate place to.
I'm not saying I have anhaven't sat and thought about
when the controversy came upto the sport, is the best place
(39:43):
happened, or is it throughagenda for like, is it about the
about actual sustainable change?
And how does that happen from anOr does that happen from long
And talking about it, I haveconclusion, but I think it's a
(40:07):
This is a fundamental thingfinish this particular topic, we
that have different reputations.
Okay.
And some of them have badpeople in the West, in our moral
If you go there and you meetthink, oh, maybe actually the
(40:30):
hypocritical about this.
Maybe we're as bad as they arein some respect, like the death
penalty.
You know, people say you can'tthe death penalty.
Well, I can think of a fewdeath penalty, and we're only
So these are questions aboutanswer to them and I don't know.
(40:51):
But I think that what sport cansport is to connect societies
not black and white issues.
There's a whole lot of gray, andhypocritical about things when
society and at the same timeyou're doing the same thing in a
(41:18):
So I think that we just need tothings politically and just to
It's also very irritating ifyou're one of these other
countries and you find yourselfbeing condemned.
It's very, very annoying.
If you like to be told thatthere you go.
(41:39):
So I don't again, as I saidbefore, I don't know the answers
because there aren't necessarilyanswers, but I think these are
subjects that should be thoughtabout and they should be handled
carefully, but just not not madeinto things.
They're not just take sport whatSport is sport.
Sport is fun.
Sport is entertainment.
(41:59):
If wars break out, sports stops,You know, and it's so we have to
remember that we're just anentertainment formula one does a
little bit for the technology ofthe world.
You know, they do stuff that canYou know, there's a fascinating
thousands of babies have beencreated by Formula One engineers
(42:23):
tiny babies and stuff like that.
Okay.
That's good, but ultimately,It's just fun.
And the thing is that sporttakes people out of the drudge,
if you want to call it, of reallife.
It gives them a chance to dream,at your desk in a boring
(42:45):
it's like to be in Monte Carlo.
You know, I call it the magicIf you can get onto the magic
bit of it.
Formula one has done its job.
It's made life better forAnd I think that's really what I
see in it, and I don't think weshould waste too much time
politicizing it.
But at the same time, we shouldDick, I'll let you give the last
(43:08):
word before I close this out,because I know that your day job
is calling.
Oh it is.
You know, I. Well, number one, Ithink this has been a
fascinating conversation, and Ithink that we must have gone
down at least three or fourrabbit holes beyond the original
question, which was, what do wethink about the various eras of
Formula One?
(43:28):
But this has been a reallyAnd I think about, you know, Joe
road and track and car andthere was to get F1 information.
And I can confirm that ten yeartrack, partly because as I had
conversation, I just love theIt was so personal.
(43:54):
It was like you were a member ofhis team and you got that
reporting and it was absolutelywonderful.
And that's part of what got meI've carried it forward fifty
years later, almost.
And so sixty years, oh myBut anyway, and that's that's to
(44:16):
me what's made the sport sogreat.
It is cosmopolitan.
It, it is going to differentI don't care so much about the
glitz and glamour, but I reallydo care about the teams and the
drivers.
And that's because I've been atYou know, we've got some dear
All of them were collegiateBoth the the husband, the wife
(44:38):
collegiate sports, right.
Know nothing about Formula One.
And then all of a sudden theydiscovered the show called Drive
to Survive.
And now all of a sudden they'relike asking questions and all
that, and they're becoming fans,right?
But they have no idea about theAnd so that then is left to
(44:59):
well, you know, there was thisthe nineteen seventies or this
And, and, you know, you can showthem video of these guys and
what they did and bring themslowly into the sport and have
that appreciation.
But until Drive to Survive cameOh, they were sticking ball
And I think the other part of itis, is that if you enjoy sports,
(45:23):
it's really easy to enjoyFormula One as much as you enjoy
basketball or golf or whatever,even if you can't really relate
to what these athletes are doingin a Formula One car, because
it's not like driving to thegrocery store.
So that that's just my take.
And I think that, you know, backso hard to get any information
(45:49):
to put effort into it, I hung onWhereas with the internet, it's
That's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
I like that, and if anything, Ivery different direction that I
But I think that that's probablyHe didn't expect it.
(46:12):
Uh, I think it is a good thingbecause it shows our passion for
the sport.
And if anything, when we answerabout the question about eras
that we're looking at it withall these different
perspectives, I will say, Ithink that you can have multiple
eras exist.
I was drawing on my paper and Iwas trying to figure out, how do
I even explain this since we'renot a visual podcast, but I can
(46:35):
see eras for the technical onone.
Like if you have a spectrum of aother historical analyses that
that shows the technical era,starts the driver error.
So for example, using theSchumacher and then above that
could have been a line thatshows the governance of of
(46:56):
Bernie.
I think that it's aopinion, of how you look at eras
that you could just look at onlythrough line, you could see
as you noted, Joe, that driverpassing of that baton, that's a
(47:17):
wouldn't see if you only lookeda very structured and markered.
And then governance also is muchof those other.
So I think you would do ajust look at one instead.
If you were to put thosemultiple layers, that gives you
the rich tapestry that the sporthas.
(47:37):
And then if anything, looking atthe conversation that we ended
up taking, it shows why some ofthese elements are necessary of
the independent journalism, thewillingness to have conversation
about facts.
You start to see that in thatlooking at the history.
So that's my last piece.
(47:59):
I take the last word technicallyAnd on that note, I say,
gentlemen, thanks for thisconversation.
Thank you.
Okay, friends, what did youWe'd love to hear from you.
What questions are you wrestlingWhat should we dive into next?
(48:20):
Send them to Sabrina at TwoWe read every single one.
And frankly, your questions areusually more interesting than
what we'd come up with on ourown.
And with that, let me say thiskeep talking and you can keep
(48:41):
two guys, a girl and F1 forSabrina.
Thanks for listening.
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